00:00SPEAKEROne week to the day, I forgot this Apple Watch.
00:03SPEAKER- Uh-huh.
00:04SPEAKER- I managed to scuff it right up.
00:08SPEAKER- Well, that's fine, scuffing adds character.
00:10SPEAKER- You know what, speaking of character,
00:12SPEAKERit was extremely uncharacteristic of me
00:15SPEAKERthat I basically said, all right, self,
00:18SPEAKERnow it's just yours.
00:19SPEAKER(laughing)
00:21SPEAKERIt didn't get the glass, it's just the aluminum.
00:24SPEAKERThat just means it's yours now.
00:26SPEAKER- This is very, this is, look, Brad, I'm proud of you.
00:28SPEAKERThis is, this shows growth and maturity.
00:30SPEAKER- I mean, if it had landed on the screen,
00:31SPEAKERwe would be having a very different conversation right now.
00:34SPEAKER- Like, my feeling on things that you use
00:38SPEAKERand that show that use is that the showing of the use,
00:42SPEAKERlike trying to keep everything perfect
00:44SPEAKERlike it's new out of the box is a fool's errand.
00:47SPEAKER- Yes, you're not wrong.
00:48SPEAKER- Because entropy always wins.
00:49SPEAKER- You're not wrong.
00:51SPEAKER- And, but more importantly, the, the, the, the device,
00:57SPEAKERthe thing showing the use is how character is,
01:00SPEAKERlike the neat thing about old furniture and old computers
01:04SPEAKERis that they show the, they show the, the, the,
01:07SPEAKERthe evidence that humans were there, right?
01:10SPEAKER- Scuffs on leather are like desirable, right?
01:12SPEAKERLike, don't you want some weathering?
01:14SPEAKER- I mean, it depends on the leather, but yeah,
01:16SPEAKERlike I don't want brand new.
01:17SPEAKERI don't, I don't want my leather stuff to look brand new.
01:19SPEAKERI want it to be, to, to show the asses
01:22SPEAKERthat have sat in that chair and.
01:25SPEAKER- Look, look, I, I blame, look, I blame Apple
01:27SPEAKERfor elevating the gadgets to the level of fetish objects.
01:31SPEAKER- Well, I mean, fetish objects show use too,
01:34SPEAKERbut that's a different podcast entirely.
01:36SPEAKERHow are you liking the watch, Brad?
01:37SPEAKER- It's awesome.
01:37SPEAKERI, I am, dude, my, I am exercising so much more.
01:41SPEAKER- Really? Are you filling your rings?
01:42SPEAKER- Oh yeah, I got, I got to bump these rings up.
01:44SPEAKER- I, I took mine swimming the other day
01:46SPEAKERfor the first time when I was swimming laps
01:47SPEAKERat family swim night at the pool.
01:49SPEAKER- How did, how did that, so I looked up the support page
01:51SPEAKERfor water resistance because of course I did.
01:54SPEAKER- Yeah.
01:55SPEAKER- And panicked because I was like,
01:56SPEAKERoh, can I just wear it in the shower?
01:58SPEAKER- Don't do that.
01:58SPEAKER- Their, yeah, their, their support page basically says
02:01SPEAKERwater resistance is not a permanent state.
02:04SPEAKERAnd the more that you use it, the less resistant it gets.
02:08SPEAKER- So I have Apple care.
02:09SPEAKER- Okay, sure.
02:10SPEAKER- So I have two years, basically a year and a half left
02:12SPEAKERto burn the, burn the water resistance out and torch it.
02:15SPEAKERAnd then it'd be like, Hey, my watch isn't working.
02:19SPEAKERAnd they're going to give me a new one
02:20SPEAKERbecause that's how this works.
02:21SPEAKER- That's probably fine.
02:23SPEAKER- But it was, it was weird.
02:24SPEAKERLike it, it felt weird to have a watch on in the pool,
02:28SPEAKERbut, but like it tracked, I said, I got in the water.
02:31SPEAKERI was like, Hey, I'm doing a swimming workout.
02:32SPEAKERThe pool is 25 meters long.
02:35SPEAKEREach, you know, each leg is 25 meters.
02:38SPEAKERAnd I hit the start button and I swam like four laps.
02:41SPEAKERAnd I looked at it and was like, Hey, you've swum four laps.
02:44SPEAKERAnd I was like, oh, okay.
02:45SPEAKERAnd then I swam some more and it, it like was totally aware
02:48SPEAKERof the number of laps that I had swum.
02:50SPEAKERThe weird thing about it is it goes into like,
02:53SPEAKERI'm in the water mode.
02:55SPEAKERSo you can't interact with it at all while you're in the pool
02:57SPEAKERwithout taking it out of the water mode.
02:59SPEAKERAnd have you, have you,
03:00SPEAKERhave you taken it out of the water mode yet?
03:01SPEAKER- So that was the most futuristic thing about this watch is
03:05SPEAKERthat it literally has a setting that like blast the water
03:07SPEAKERout of the orifice of the watch.
03:10SPEAKER- Yeah. Just plays sound really loud at a specific frequency
03:13SPEAKERto like blow all the droplets out of the speaker grills
03:16SPEAKERand stuff, I guess it's weird.
03:17SPEAKER- Does, I think, I think doesn't the watch
03:18SPEAKERlike actually say on the face,
03:20SPEAKERlike injecting water or something while it's doing it?
03:22SPEAKER- Yes.
03:23SPEAKER- That's pretty funny.
03:24SPEAKER- They changed it.
03:25SPEAKERIt used to be that you had to scroll the, the,
03:27SPEAKERthe crown to do that.
03:28SPEAKERAnd now you just hold the crown, which is much better.
03:30SPEAKER- I see.
03:31SPEAKER- So an improvement.
03:32SPEAKER- Now I just need to find a face I can live with.
03:35SPEAKER- What, what, what, what's, what's your, you're like,
03:38SPEAKERnot like in the typefaces they give you, not like in the,
03:41SPEAKERlike I, I, I'm a, so I've set mine up
03:44SPEAKERso that I have the Siri face with the, like the dynamic,
03:48SPEAKERHey, here's what you have next going on in your day
03:50SPEAKERwith reminders and calendars and stuff like that.
03:52SPEAKERWhile I'm on work hours and then outside of work hours,
03:55SPEAKERI have one that's just no complications.
03:58SPEAKER- Oh, will it change faces automatically?
04:00SPEAKER- With your focus.
04:01SPEAKER- With part of a focus, I need,
04:02SPEAKERI need to dig into the focus stuff.
04:03SPEAKERI have completely neglected it, but it sounds very useful.
04:06SPEAKER- The focus stuff is spectacular.
04:07SPEAKERIt's really, really good.
04:08SPEAKERThere's some definitely,
04:09SPEAKERthere's definitely some issues with it
04:11SPEAKERin terms of like conditionals.
04:13SPEAKERSo for example, if you get in a car,
04:15SPEAKERit trumps your, whatever focus you're in,
04:18SPEAKERand it doesn't roll back to the focus that you should be in
04:20SPEAKERbased on the time of day or whatever it, that, that part,
04:23SPEAKERthere's some hinky stuff here and there.
04:25SPEAKERBut overall, I think the focus thing is my favorite part
04:27SPEAKERabout the new version of iOS.
04:29SPEAKER- It seems pretty cool.
04:30SPEAKERI am fixated on using an analog face
04:34SPEAKERbecause I want to feel like an adult.
04:37SPEAKER- Hmm.
04:38SPEAKER- But then it turns out that I am not, it starts with P.
04:42SPEAKERCan you, can you tell me the technical term
04:44SPEAKERfor needing reading glasses pres, presby?
04:47SPEAKER- Presbyopia?
04:48SPEAKER- Yes, I think due to that.
04:49SPEAKER- That either means you're a Presbyterian who can see
04:51SPEAKERor you have nearsightedness or farsightedness.
04:54SPEAKER- I can't read the text on most of the faces.
04:57SPEAKERIt's a real bummer.
04:58SPEAKER- Oh no.
05:00SPEAKER- I, look, can I, okay.
05:02SPEAKERWhen is Apple coming out with eyes?
05:03SPEAKERWhen, when are the eye eyes coming out?
05:05SPEAKER- No, no, no, you don't want the brain implants.
05:07SPEAKERSo you don't want to be the first one of those.
05:09SPEAKERYou want to let like,
05:09SPEAKERlike as somebody who bought the very first Apple watch,
05:11SPEAKERI was like, this thing is really cool for about a year.
05:13SPEAKERAnd then it was no longer cool at all because they wore out.
05:17SPEAKERYou only get one shot at the eyeballs.
05:18SPEAKERIt turns out probably.
05:21SPEAKERSo when they get the ice cream scoops,
05:22SPEAKERyou want them to have, you want to,
05:23SPEAKERyou want them to have done those a lot is all I'm saying.
05:25SPEAKER- I mean, look, they might scoop your eyes out
05:27SPEAKERwith ice cream scoops,
05:28SPEAKERbut it's going to be a really pretty looking ice cream scoop.
05:31SPEAKER(upbeat music)
05:48SPEAKER(upbeat music)
05:59SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.
06:01SPEAKERI'm Will.
06:02SPEAKER- I'm Brad.
06:03SPEAKER- We're joined today by a very special guest,
06:04SPEAKERmy dear friend and, and for now, it seems like,
06:09SPEAKERit seems like like two lifetimes ago, Gordon,
06:10SPEAKERthat we actually work together now.
06:12SPEAKERCo-worker Gordon, Gordon Hmong from PC World.
06:14SPEAKER- Hey, how's it going?
06:15SPEAKERIt does seem like it was like,
06:17SPEAKERit was like at least 10 PCs ago.
06:21SPEAKER- Don't you bet your PCs in months though?
06:23SPEAKER- Well, yeah, it was for me,
06:25SPEAKERit's been fewer PCs than it's been for you.
06:26SPEAKERCause like I, I, I went from upgrading every,
06:29SPEAKERlike every time there was hardware laying around
06:31SPEAKERthat was unused to, to,
06:34SPEAKERlet's say every two or three years now, I guess.
06:37SPEAKERLike I'm coming up, I'm due though.
06:38SPEAKERI'm on a 9900K and I'm,
06:40SPEAKERI just got a 4090 and I'm kind of feeling it.
06:42SPEAKER- Dude, I'm still on a 7700K.
06:45SPEAKERLike what is, what is the average PC's lifespan these days?
06:47SPEAKERLike I'm on, so I did swap the chip out of that thing,
06:50SPEAKERbut the motherboard was bought in late 2015.
06:52SPEAKERSo you tell me, that's seven years of this motherboard.
06:55SPEAKER- 7700K, that definitely is, that's kind of old school.
06:58SPEAKERBut I will say the funny thing is,
07:00SPEAKERI'm running a Skylake box too.
07:02SPEAKERI'm using the same cores, but it's Skylake X.
07:04SPEAKERCause it's, you know, who cares?
07:06SPEAKERI mean, it's pretty worthless,
07:07SPEAKERbut I was just doing some testing on it.
07:09SPEAKERAnd it's funny to think like, how old it is.
07:13SPEAKERLike 18, this is an 18 core Skylake.
07:16SPEAKERWhat that was, I think it was like 2000 bucks originally.
07:18SPEAKERAnd you know, of course it got crushed.
07:20SPEAKERIt got crushed by all the AMD parts that came out soon after,
07:23SPEAKERbut it just, it's just funny, man, Skylake.
07:26SPEAKERThe nice thing is you can't be upgraded to Windows 11.
07:28SPEAKERSome people see that as a feature.
07:31SPEAKER- First time I opened Windows update right there in red,
07:33SPEAKERyou are not eligible.
07:34SPEAKERAnd I'm like, cool.
07:36SPEAKER- Well, I mean, it's, it's interesting.
07:38SPEAKERCause this year we did an Nvidia episode last week,
07:42SPEAKERI think, where we talked about the 4090.
07:43SPEAKERI spent a couple of weeks testing
07:45SPEAKERand benchmarking and stuff.
07:47SPEAKERLike it's the first time I've had a piece of hardware
07:49SPEAKERthat made me think, oh right,
07:50SPEAKERI finally need to upgrade my CPU in a really long time.
07:55SPEAKERWhich is like, so we're going to talk about new CPUs
07:58SPEAKERfrom both Intel and AMD this week for listeners.
08:00SPEAKERGordon's here cause he's the man for this sort of stuff.
08:06SPEAKERAnd we typically, for these episodes, front load
08:09SPEAKERso that people who don't care about how things actually work
08:11SPEAKERcan just find out what they should buy.
08:15SPEAKERSo spoilers, I guess, for the rest of the podcast,
08:18SPEAKERbut like what's the,
08:19SPEAKERIntel and AMD just rolled out new CPUs.
08:22SPEAKERWhere should people spend their money, Gordon?
08:25SPEAKERHow's it looking?
08:26SPEAKER- Well, I think it depends on what level you're looking at.
08:31SPEAKERSo there's like, if you are an enthusiast
08:33SPEAKERand you want the absolute best,
08:36SPEAKERit's going to depend on largely on what you do.
08:39SPEAKERYou know, one chip has an advantage in certain areas.
08:43SPEAKERLike I would say, I'm thinking,
08:47SPEAKERit feels like a month ago already,
08:48SPEAKERcause it was just a few days.
08:49SPEAKERBut I would say, you know, like honestly Ryzen 7000,
08:52SPEAKERwhich was an impressive as hell CPU when it came out,
08:56SPEAKERwhat, four weeks ago, it absolutely crushed 5,000.
09:00SPEAKERIt really sort of, for me, it made up in a lot of areas
09:03SPEAKERthat it was very weakened against Intel's 12th gen.
09:06SPEAKERI would say that chip still definitely at the high end
09:10SPEAKERis something you should consider.
09:12SPEAKEROne, if you want, obviously more efficiency,
09:16SPEAKERbut power efficiency is what I'm talking about.
09:18SPEAKERIf you want to save more power,
09:19SPEAKERwhich is crazy because when the original 7950X came out,
09:24SPEAKER16 cores, people lost their minds.
09:26SPEAKERCause, oh my God, I can't believe it uses so much power.
09:28SPEAKERIt's like, yeah, it's also 40% faster than 5950X.
09:32SPEAKERSo it doesn't come from nowhere.
09:34SPEAKERBut I would definitely say it can,
09:37SPEAKERit definitely has a lead in efficiency,
09:39SPEAKERpower efficiency when you're using all the cores.
09:41SPEAKERSo that's something you'd want to consider for.
09:44SPEAKERI would also say it definitely has a slight advantage
09:46SPEAKERover Intel's newest top-end 13th gen
09:50SPEAKERin many multi-core, multi-threaded applications.
09:54SPEAKERBut I will say that's not a guarantee.
09:56SPEAKERAnd then for, you will want to look at sensitivities
09:59SPEAKERfrom the applications that you run to make the proper choice
10:02SPEAKERbecause there's some things that run better on Intel.
10:04SPEAKERThere's some things that run better on AMD.
10:07SPEAKERIt may be so close that you don't care
10:09SPEAKERbecause the advantages for Intel
10:12SPEAKERmight be something worth doing.
10:13SPEAKERAnd again, some things that's actually faster than Ryzen
10:17SPEAKERor about the same speed for multi-core,
10:20SPEAKERbut it has a lot of the advantage in lightly threaded tasks.
10:24SPEAKERAnd also, I think it's actually very important
10:27SPEAKERbecause a lot of people get caught up
10:28SPEAKERin the 3D rendering stuff that is sexy
10:31SPEAKERcause it uses all the cores,
10:32SPEAKERbut when you look at Photoshop, when you look at Premiere,
10:35SPEAKERwhen you're looking at Office and Chrome,
10:38SPEAKER13th gen has very decent advantage over a Ryzen 7000,
10:43SPEAKERwhich is still very good, to be honest.
10:45SPEAKERBut I would say if that's what you care more about
10:48SPEAKERand there's actually some long,
10:52SPEAKERthey've had an advantage for a while
10:54SPEAKERbecause they have worked very closely with Adobe.
10:57SPEAKERThey use Quick Sync,
10:58SPEAKERwhich is part of the media encoder inside of the IGP.
11:01SPEAKERSo if you're doing media encoding, using Quick Sync,
11:04SPEAKERand you're using Premiere,
11:06SPEAKERwhich is one of the things that leverages it,
11:08SPEAKERthen you want Intel, obviously.
11:10SPEAKERAnd AMD is behind the department.
11:11SPEAKERRyzen 7000 did bring a media encode engine
11:14SPEAKERbecause every single CPU includes an IGP,
11:17SPEAKERbut that takes developer relations.
11:20SPEAKERThat means going, sending people down to work with Adobe,
11:23SPEAKERall these different companies.
11:25SPEAKERAnd AMD is just behind there.
11:26SPEAKERThey have not had the deep pockets that Intel has had
11:31SPEAKERand it's frankly Apple and NVIDIA too, right?
11:34SPEAKERThat's why CUDA dominates generally.
11:36SPEAKERThat's why Apple has done so wonderful
11:38SPEAKERwith its new architecture.
11:39SPEAKERAnd they just really, it takes going on.
11:42SPEAKERAnd I sort of say it's similar to
11:44SPEAKERwhen you go to the grocery store and you want to like,
11:47SPEAKER"Hey, I want you to sell my bread.
11:49SPEAKER"Oh, that's cool.
11:50SPEAKER"I'm gonna need your worker to come into my store
11:53SPEAKER"and not only just bring the bread in,
11:55SPEAKER"but they're gonna have to put on the shelf.
11:57SPEAKER"So they're gonna have to do the stocking
11:58SPEAKER"'cause I don't want to pay somebody
12:00SPEAKER"the minimum wage, the two hours to restock."
12:02SPEAKERSo I think it's very similar to that.
12:04SPEAKERAnd I know people like to say it's like,
12:05SPEAKER"Well, that's not fair.
12:06SPEAKER"That's not fair."
12:07SPEAKERBut at the end of the day, you can pick your chip
12:11SPEAKERbased on whatever your own internal guidelines or ethics are
12:15SPEAKERor you could simply say, "I want the best thing ever
12:17SPEAKER"'cause I need this for work."
12:20SPEAKERThat's at the high end.
12:21SPEAKERAt the mid range, like Core i5, Ryzen 5,
12:25SPEAKERit's actually far uglier for AMD
12:28SPEAKERbecause they have a six-core versus Intel
12:30SPEAKERwith a Core i5 13600K.
12:33SPEAKERI want to say I haven't run the benchmarks yet,
12:35SPEAKERbut I can already tell you it was on paper
12:38SPEAKERand everything I'd seen.
12:38SPEAKERIt was clear it was gonna be very similar
12:41SPEAKERto what I saw with Ryzen 12th Gen versus Ryzen 5000.
12:45SPEAKERAnd six cores versus 14 cores,
12:50SPEAKEReven though it's six performance cores
12:52SPEAKERand eight efficiency cores, it's just gonna be ugly.
12:56SPEAKERBoth of them are pushing it really hard.
12:58SPEAKERSo if you're gonna do multi-core, multi-threaded workloads,
13:03SPEAKERIntel definitely is gonna essentially crush Ryzen 7600X.
13:09SPEAKERBut here's the other thing though.
13:11SPEAKERIf you're playing just games, and I like to say just games
13:14SPEAKER'cause actually people make more money than I do
13:16SPEAKERplaying just games, if you are mostly a gamer
13:20SPEAKERand you're not doing all kinds of things
13:21SPEAKERlike you're recording it and you need to edit it
13:23SPEAKERand you don't need that high core count,
13:25SPEAKERhonestly, Ryzen is as good and honestly, who cares?
13:29SPEAKERI really have, my feeling these days is who cares?
13:32SPEAKERBecause it's about, I'm always gonna say
13:34SPEAKERput more money into the GPU.
13:37SPEAKERBut that's kind of how it breaks down.
13:38SPEAKER- It's, okay, so I have a two-part question.
13:41SPEAKERFirst off, which one is gonna launch Photoshop fastest?
13:44SPEAKER'Cause that's where, of all the things on my computer
13:48SPEAKERthat are slow, that is the thing that is consistently
13:50SPEAKERthe slowest from PC to PC over the last 20 years.
13:55SPEAKER- Yeah, I would, that'd be interesting.
13:57SPEAKERPhotoshop launch is not something I have looked at.
13:59SPEAKERI will say all the actions within Photoshop
14:02SPEAKERusing various different benchmarks,
14:04SPEAKERIntel has the advantage.
14:05SPEAKERSo that is, I don't know about launching speed,
14:09SPEAKERbut I think definitely, I think just going to these
14:11SPEAKERnewer generation of CPUs should help that.
14:15SPEAKERAnd of course, it would help to have fastest SSD.
14:19SPEAKERI don't know if we're gonna see a difference
14:21SPEAKERwhen we get the Gen 5 SSDs.
14:22SPEAKERThey're not, everybody's touted them,
14:24SPEAKERnobody's pushed one out the door yet,
14:26SPEAKERso we'll see if that makes a difference
14:27SPEAKERwith direct storage and all that.
14:28SPEAKERBut again, that to me is, in a way, I mean, again,
14:34SPEAKERI don't like to declare one better or one the winner,
14:36SPEAKERbecause I don't think there is one winner.
14:37SPEAKERI think it just depends on what you do with your computer.
14:40SPEAKERBut I do think, yeah, if you're Photoshop,
14:43SPEAKERif you're in a Photoshop in a Premiere or Lightroom,
14:45SPEAKERI do, if you look at it, 13th Gen has a clear advantage
14:49SPEAKERover Ryzen 7000.
14:51SPEAKERIt's not like, oh my god, it's like so much better.
14:54SPEAKERAnd frankly, some people may not notice,
14:56SPEAKERbecause Ryzen 7000 is an incredibly fast CPU too.
14:59SPEAKERBut if you wanna know who's in front,
15:02SPEAKERit's definitely 13th Gen for those.
15:04SPEAKER- I feel like benchmarking the launch speed of Photoshop
15:07SPEAKERis the populist angle, that's the people's benchmark.
15:09SPEAKERThat's the thing that people actually wanna hear.
15:12SPEAKER- I think Acrobat, you know what's funny,
15:13SPEAKER'cause this is one of those, like,
15:15SPEAKERyou know, there's always, whenever, you know,
15:17SPEAKERbenchmarking is like, it's funny, 'cause you always think,
15:19SPEAKERlike, oh, it's just simply numbers.
15:21SPEAKERLike, you know, there's a lot of politics with it too,
15:23SPEAKERand you always kinda wonder, like,
15:24SPEAKERwhat are they doing with this?
15:25SPEAKERWhenever you see that Intel talks about, like,
15:29SPEAKER'cause they obviously are in a kind of not nice words
15:34SPEAKERwith Apple, especially 'cause Apple was slinging mud at them,
15:37SPEAKERso they slung mud back, and these tests are often pushing
15:40SPEAKERas like, convert document, Word document to PDF.
15:45SPEAKERThere's like a lot of PDF versions.
15:47SPEAKERLike, Acrobat is like, somehow this, like, thing is like,
15:49SPEAKERokay, I guess a lot of people, but you know,
15:51SPEAKERit's really funny, it's apparently, it's a real, like,
15:54SPEAKERit's a real deal, especially if you're using these laptops.
15:56SPEAKERI guess a lot of people do care about Acrobat,
15:59SPEAKER'cause it's so slow all the time.
16:00SPEAKER- I mean, and it's a thing that if,
16:02SPEAKERas somebody who does a lot more business stuff now
16:04SPEAKERthan I did 10 years ago, I do,
16:06SPEAKERI spend a shocking amount of time in Word hitting that save
16:08SPEAKERthis is a PDF, or PowerPoint save as a PDF button.
16:12SPEAKER- Yeah, but it's not sexy, right?
16:14SPEAKERThat's the problem, is everybody's like,
16:15SPEAKERwell, that's, I don't care about that.
16:16SPEAKERAnd it's like, okay, well, you know what?
16:18SPEAKERThis executive makes way more money than you do,
16:20SPEAKERso maybe you should care about it.
16:22SPEAKER- Nobody's dedicating space on the silicon
16:24SPEAKERto Acrobat acceleration.
16:26SPEAKER- I have suggested that before, so.
16:28SPEAKER(laughing)
16:30SPEAKER- I want to install a PDF accelerator card in my PC.
16:33SPEAKER- Well, you know, I mean, that's the whole part
16:35SPEAKERof the whole performance game, is there's a lot of,
16:38SPEAKERthere is a awful lot of politics involved.
16:41SPEAKERLike, I use Puget Bench, it's a very popular benchmarks
16:44SPEAKERmade by Puget Systems, there's a workstation maker
16:47SPEAKERup in Washington State, and they basically,
16:50SPEAKERthey do workstations, they do intensive workstation testing,
16:52SPEAKERyou should go read, if you want to buy a workstation,
16:54SPEAKERplease, please go read all their testing and research,
16:56SPEAKERit's invaluable, but they release the benchmarks.
16:59SPEAKEROne of their tests, which is Puget Bench for Premier,
17:03SPEAKERit uses, and I brought this up, it uses a lot of,
17:07SPEAKERI don't know, my brain is ProRes,
17:09SPEAKERso it uses a lot of ProRes in it,
17:11SPEAKERand I'm like, well, huh, is that fair?
17:14SPEAKER- It's an Apple codec.
17:16SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, that's what people don't think,
17:17SPEAKERit's like, oh, well, you know, M1 is awesome,
17:19SPEAKERit's like, well, there's also, there, you know,
17:21SPEAKERbecause the benchmark that runs on Apple Silicon
17:24SPEAKERand it runs on Intel and AMD uses ProRes,
17:27SPEAKERand by the way, that's home field advantage,
17:29SPEAKERheavy home field advantage for Apple,
17:31SPEAKERbecause it's their codec, and you know what,
17:33SPEAKERI asked Intel about this, 'cause like, hey,
17:35SPEAKERwhat's up with the ProRes, you ever gonna get any support?
17:37SPEAKERAnd they're going, you know what, we checked.
17:39SPEAKERGuess what, it's not an open codec, so.
17:43SPEAKER- So they can't accelerate.
17:44SPEAKER- Well, yeah, but that, is that like having a benchmark
17:48SPEAKERwhere you're using a codec made by Intel?
17:50SPEAKERIf you did that, people would freak the F out, right?
17:53SPEAKERLike, oh, because it's made by Apple.
17:56SPEAKER- People use diameter for years, though,
17:58SPEAKERso like, I mean, I guess the thing to me is,
18:01SPEAKERif it represents a real life workflow
18:03SPEAKERthat people are actually using, it seems fair,
18:06SPEAKERbut it is always a kind of fraught.
18:11SPEAKERSpeaking of things that are fraught,
18:13SPEAKERwhat's the deal with AMD, with the Ryzen and Windows 11
18:17SPEAKER22H2 and the high end multi-CCD chips not working
18:27SPEAKERat full speed?
18:28SPEAKER- Yeah, so what you're talking about here
18:31SPEAKERis there was a report, I think it was out of,
18:34SPEAKERoh God, I don't want to mangle the name of it,
18:36SPEAKERbut it's a cat frame X, they make a benchmarking tool,
18:41SPEAKERand they get pretty hot on Twitter at people, too,
18:43SPEAKERby the way, but apparently I think the problem
18:48SPEAKERthey ran into, for people who don't know,
18:50SPEAKERAMD has long used this multi-chip design,
18:55SPEAKERand they have, on their high end,
18:57SPEAKERtheir 16-core CPUs are made up of multiple chips
19:02SPEAKERconnected by an IO die, and it's really ingenious
19:05SPEAKER'cause it really lets them leverage silicon
19:09SPEAKERacross the entire line, saves them money,
19:11SPEAKERand a lot of scale to it.
19:14SPEAKERSo one of the, I think, issues was if you,
19:17SPEAKERthey're finding in one game so far,
19:21SPEAKERI have not had a chance to sit down and look at this,
19:23SPEAKERin one game, Shadow of the Tomb Raider,
19:25SPEAKERI think if you disable one of the CCDs,
19:28SPEAKERas you remember, you're splitting the core count
19:30SPEAKERacross two different chips,
19:33SPEAKERapparently what's happened is there's a nice,
19:37SPEAKERthere's some kind of performance penalty
19:39SPEAKERwhen using both CCDs where as you go to one,
19:42SPEAKERand I have not had a chance to look into this,
19:45SPEAKERin fact, I'm fortunately not affected by it
19:47SPEAKERbecause I used 21H2 because all benchmarkers,
19:53SPEAKERwe all kinda like, when we talked Intel about 13 gens,
19:55SPEAKERlike, do we really have to upgrade to 22H2 for this?
19:59SPEAKERLike, are you gonna see night and day performance?
20:02SPEAKER'Cause nobody wanted to start all over again
20:04SPEAKERand throw all the previous results out.
20:06SPEAKERAnd they said, like, oh, it's a little tiny difference,
20:09SPEAKERit's not gonna matter enough.
20:11SPEAKERSo I did not upgrade, update to the latest version,
20:14SPEAKERa lot of people did not.
20:16SPEAKERBut they don't really know whether,
20:18SPEAKERwhat the issue is, is it window scheduler,
20:21SPEAKERor is it just simply whoever makes the game needs to,
20:25SPEAKERinstead of basically throwing all the threads
20:27SPEAKERacross the different CCDs,
20:29SPEAKERthey should be throwing them at the correct one.
20:31SPEAKERSo it could just simply be a patch that has to come out.
20:34SPEAKERIt's not really clear whether this is like,
20:35SPEAKERoh my god, you need to, the whole,
20:37SPEAKERthis actually came out with the original 1000 series,
20:39SPEAKERlike, you know, latency across the dies and all that.
20:43SPEAKER- But it's not an endemic problem with the CPU,
20:45SPEAKERit's just with this particular benchmark, it seems like.
20:47SPEAKER- Yeah, it could be just this particular game,
20:49SPEAKERand also could be, you know, it could also,
20:52SPEAKERI mean, we don't really know, again,
20:53SPEAKERbecause people are still looking to this,
20:55SPEAKERit came up very late in the review cycle for everybody.
20:59SPEAKERI think it could be Windows, but, you know,
21:02SPEAKER'cause remember, the one thing that Intel did
21:04SPEAKERis with 13th Gen is they have a new version
21:06SPEAKERof Thread Director, which they're not really
21:08SPEAKERmaking a big deal out of,
21:09SPEAKERbut they are calling it Thread Director 2,
21:11SPEAKERand they say it's improved over 12th Gen,
21:14SPEAKERand it's supposed to offer some improvement,
21:17SPEAKERand the best improvement is when you pair it
21:20SPEAKERwith the latest version of Windows, which is, you know,
21:23SPEAKER22H2, so that, I think it's something
21:27SPEAKEReverybody's gonna have to look at again.
21:29SPEAKERSo, which kinda sucks, again, you know,
21:30SPEAKERbenchmarking life is just the worst thing in the world,
21:33SPEAKERbecause you are just, like, people are like,
21:37SPEAKERoh, you need 40, 'cause I use, like,
21:38SPEAKERslow-ass 30 90s for benchmarking, right?
21:41SPEAKERIt's like, well, what are my chances
21:43SPEAKERof, like, scoring two 40 90s any day now?
21:45SPEAKERSo, you're not gonna, like, do that.
21:47SPEAKERBut if you got the 40 90s, you gotta like,
21:50SPEAKERokay, let's throw everything away and start all over again.
21:53SPEAKERSo, it just sucks, and, like, new version
21:55SPEAKERof the operating system, oh, by the way,
21:56SPEAKERoh, you know what, I just retweeted this picture
21:59SPEAKERthis morning, hey, somebody was, I think,
22:01SPEAKERKingston has some DDR5-7600 modules, so. (laughs)
22:08SPEAKER- What's up with DDR5 at this point?
22:10SPEAKERAre prices going to stabilize?
22:11SPEAKERAre they, like, safe to buy yet?
22:13SPEAKEROr are they still, like, flaky at higher speeds?
22:16SPEAKERLike, I mean, we're just in a memory transition right now,
22:18SPEAKERlike, 'cause that's usually, like, somewhat bumpy, right?
22:20SPEAKER- Yeah, you know, memory transitions are always the hardest.
22:23SPEAKERThey happen very, very rarely, so people just don't realize
22:27SPEAKERhow hard it is.
22:28SPEAKERMost of the people, in fact, probably even,
22:31SPEAKERmoving to DDR5 didn't have to live through the transition
22:34SPEAKERfrom three to four in a way,
22:35SPEAKERso they don't even remember, right?
22:36SPEAKERSo, it's ugly.
22:38SPEAKERDDR5, of course, came in when it first came out,
22:41SPEAKERit was so hard to get, like, vendors couldn't,
22:43SPEAKERlike, people building PCs to sell them couldn't get it,
22:46SPEAKERbecause everything was just, like, literally stuck on a ship.
22:49SPEAKERAnd then most of it was getting into reviewers,
22:52SPEAKERbecause it would come directly from, you know, the vendors,
22:54SPEAKERbecause they had it, and they, like,
22:56SPEAKERreviewers can't test it without the RAM.
22:59SPEAKERAnd it has gone from, like, oh, you know,
23:02SPEAKER32 gigs for $700 down to
23:05SPEAKERvery much being somewhat on par with DDR4.
23:11SPEAKEROf course, that's not gonna be the highest-clocked, right?
23:13SPEAKERYou're not gonna get, like, DDR5, $7600 for the same price
23:17SPEAKERof a pair of, you know, average DDR4 modules.
23:19SPEAKERIt has really, really come down in price.
23:22SPEAKERAnd this is, another thing is, like,
23:24SPEAKERearlier we were talking about CPU performance.
23:26SPEAKERIf you're making your choice between CPUs,
23:28SPEAKERyou also have to know, like, to do
23:32SPEAKERAMD Ryzen 7000 chips and its new AM5 socket,
23:35SPEAKERand to do 13th Gen, well,
23:40SPEAKERyou probably want DDR5.
23:42SPEAKERHowever, Intel is the only one that gives you an option
23:44SPEAKERto run DDR4, because their CPU,
23:47SPEAKERwhich has a memory controller,
23:48SPEAKERsupports both DDR4 and DDR5.
23:51SPEAKERAMD chose the route of, we're only gonna support DDR5
23:54SPEAKERfor this next generation of CPUs.
23:57SPEAKERAnd that can make it tough.
23:59SPEAKERIt's not necessarily just the fact
24:01SPEAKERthat you might have to pay a little more for DDR5,
24:03SPEAKERbut if you already have, say, 32 gigs or 64 gigs of DDR4,
24:08SPEAKERyou could recycle it.
24:09SPEAKERYou could do a new box.
24:10SPEAKERAnd so that can, like, okay, I'm gonna do, honestly,
24:13SPEAKERCore i5 3600, oh god, 3600x, what the hell is that?
24:18SPEAKER30, it's, my brain is gone here.
24:20SPEAKER13,
24:22SPEAKER- 13600, right?
24:23SPEAKER- 13600K is really probably the chip most people,
24:27SPEAKEReven if you're an enthusiast,
24:29SPEAKERhas got way more than you ever need.
24:31SPEAKERA lot of bang for your buck.
24:33SPEAKERYou could build that with DDR5 for the best performance.
24:36SPEAKERIt'll get better as the memory continues
24:38SPEAKERto get higher and higher on clock.
24:41SPEAKEROr if you really, like, I got 64 gigs, I wanna reuse it.
24:45SPEAKERWell, then you could do that.
24:47SPEAKERYou could do 13th Gen Core i5 with Intel,
24:51SPEAKERand that's actually, it really helps in this cycle,
24:53SPEAKERwhereas for AMD, they're just kinda caught, like,
24:56SPEAKERyou know, you do DDR5 or nothing,
24:59SPEAKERand a lot of people are saying, you know,
25:00SPEAKERI'm not gonna do it, I'm just gonna buy, you know,
25:03SPEAKERone of your awesome 16-core or your X3D part
25:07SPEAKERfor these fire sale prices and just upgrade my system
25:10SPEAKERand sit here for another few years, which, you know,
25:12SPEAKERthat's bad.
25:13SPEAKERI mean, there have been a lot of anecdotal reports
25:16SPEAKERof 7,000 not selling that well, so.
25:19SPEAKER- So what's the, sorry, what's the,
25:21SPEAKERdo you know what the sweet spot is for RAM speed
25:23SPEAKERon Ryzen 7,000?
25:24SPEAKER'Cause I know those are especially sensitive
25:26SPEAKERto memory speeds.
25:28SPEAKER- They continually have said that you want DDR5-6,000.
25:34SPEAKER- Okay. - And that's actually
25:34SPEAKERwhat they seeded all the version of the units,
25:36SPEAKERand, you know, most, I actually did all of my 13th
25:39SPEAKERand 7,000 reviews at DDR5-6,000 speeds.
25:44SPEAKERCL32 or CL, I can't remember what the latency is
25:47SPEAKERwhere on both of them, but that's what they recommend.
25:50SPEAKERIntel, it seems like they can, they can hit higher clocks,
25:55SPEAKER'cause I don't think I've seen anything higher
25:58SPEAKERthan 6,000 on AMD, but it gets a little weird
26:01SPEAKERbecause AMD now has this thing called Expo
26:06SPEAKERand it's their own memory spec protocol.
26:11SPEAKERBasically, when you put the memory module
26:12SPEAKERinto your computer, it looks at the,
26:15SPEAKERit looks at this little chip on the memory module,
26:18SPEAKERthen it tells the motherboard what to set the memory for
26:20SPEAKERor what you can set it for.
26:23SPEAKER- Like their version of XMP?
26:24SPEAKER- Yeah, so it's their version of XMP,
26:26SPEAKERand they showed this off in Austin
26:27SPEAKERwhen they briefed everybody on Ryzen 7,000,
26:31SPEAKERso it's like a separate path.
26:32SPEAKERIt's quite interesting.
26:34SPEAKERThere's a lot of, there's a lot of nuance and politics to it
26:37SPEAKERthat I still haven't really unwrapped,
26:38SPEAKERbut their rationale for it is like,
26:41SPEAKERwe need to control this, and also, by the way,
26:45SPEAKERas part of our spec, what's gonna be awesome,
26:47SPEAKER'cause we're AMD and we're always open,
26:49SPEAKERwe're gonna make, if you wanna make Expo modules,
26:52SPEAKERwhich they're basically saying you have to
26:53SPEAKERif you're gonna build modules for DR or for Ryzen 7,000,
26:58SPEAKERyou need to publish the full specifications of the memory.
27:03SPEAKERSo they, like, every single timing,
27:04SPEAKERyou have to put it on your page in a PDF.
27:07SPEAKERSee, there goes the PDF again. (laughs)
27:08SPEAKER- Yeah, once again.
27:09SPEAKER- There goes the PDF, there goes the PDF again.
27:10SPEAKERYou gotta put the specs on your website,
27:12SPEAKERand people need to be able to see the full specs,
27:14SPEAKERand they're like, and their messaging to everybody was like,
27:17SPEAKERwe're not opaque like Intel.
27:21SPEAKERAnd the interesting thing is they say like,
27:23SPEAKERhey, we're not opaque, you can see the full specs,
27:27SPEAKERand there's no royalties.
27:29SPEAKER- Oh, so they're not charging, they're not charging,
27:32SPEAKERpresumably there's royalties tied to XMP,
27:34SPEAKERif you choose to implement that.
27:35SPEAKER- Yeah, so that's the thing, is like,
27:36SPEAKERI didn't know there were royalties on XMP, so,
27:38SPEAKERand of course, when you say like, we don't charge royalties,
27:42SPEAKERkind of like, so it's like, oh,
27:43SPEAKEReverybody's charging royalties.
27:44SPEAKERI go to Intel, it's like, so what's up royalties on XMP3?
27:48SPEAKERThey're like, we do not charge royalties on XMP,
27:51SPEAKERwe've never charged royalties on XMP.
27:53SPEAKERSo, you know, but it's a good way to message it, right?
27:56SPEAKER- Man, that is some real shade right there.
27:58SPEAKER- No, that's, I don't think, you know the funny thing is,
28:01SPEAKERI don't really consider any of it shade anymore.
28:05SPEAKERYou know, people got out really hot
28:07SPEAKERover the 40, 80, 12 gig, and 60.
28:10SPEAKERIt's just, to me, it's just part of the business, you know?
28:13SPEAKERThey, their job is to take your money,
28:15SPEAKERas much of your money as they can, and our job is to,
28:18SPEAKERwell, my job is to tell people how to not give them
28:20SPEAKERall your money if you don't need to,
28:21SPEAKERand as a consumer, you need to protect your own money.
28:25SPEAKERSo I think it's like, I think it's fair.
28:27SPEAKERThat's how you play, it's just part of the game.
28:28SPEAKERI can't hate the player, you can hate the game.
28:31SPEAKER- No, no, no, this is the greatest game.
28:34SPEAKERLike, while we're talking about memory,
28:37SPEAKERit's interesting, 'cause like, the only times
28:39SPEAKERI've had memory die in my memory has always been
28:43SPEAKERmemory I bought right at the start of the transition
28:45SPEAKERfrom one spec to the next.
28:48SPEAKERSo I had DDR3 sticks that died,
28:50SPEAKERI had DDR4 sticks that died.
28:52SPEAKERIs, are we past that point with DDR5 now, do you think?
28:55SPEAKEROr do you think we're still in kind of the danger zone?
28:58SPEAKER- Well, you know, I think always when you're,
29:00SPEAKERanytime you buy the first generation of memory,
29:03SPEAKERit's, or anything, honestly, it's not the best,
29:06SPEAKERbut I think it's, it's hard to say.
29:08SPEAKERI mean, as long as you're getting something
29:09SPEAKERwith good warranty, and then you do have,
29:12SPEAKERI mean, this is something that has to be said,
29:13SPEAKERbut Jetik, which is the, you know,
29:16SPEAKERthe overseeing committee for memory,
29:20SPEAKERthey have a certain speed, it's like, what is it?
29:22SPEAKERIs it 5600, I think is the top, I forget what Jetik,
29:25SPEAKERthe top Jetik speed is.
29:26SPEAKERThere is a top, here is the speed, it's official.
29:30SPEAKERAnything over that is technically overclocking.
29:33SPEAKER- Just like DDR4 was technically limited to 2400
29:36SPEAKERfor a long time, even though, here's 3600.
29:39SPEAKER- Yeah, 2133 is what everybody said was Jetik speed,
29:42SPEAKERbut they, you know, I guess technically,
29:44SPEAKERthey did eventually update it to have 3200 for memory.
29:49SPEAKERBut as far as reliability, I think you're okay.
29:52SPEAKERAgain, this comes down to buy from a reputable vendor.
29:54SPEAKERI mean, if there's some components you're fine going,
29:57SPEAKERblowing up on your computer, if there's,
30:01SPEAKERlike if you want to pick one of the components,
30:02SPEAKERyou're fine going up, memory's probably one of the ones
30:05SPEAKERI wouldn't care about because it's just memory.
30:07SPEAKERSSD going up in flames, that would be very,
30:10SPEAKERthat's of course the worst thing.
30:11SPEAKERAnd then other power supply going up in flames
30:13SPEAKERis also not good, but.
30:15SPEAKER- Gordon, can we do a quick lightning round?
30:17SPEAKERI just want to ask you your favorite,
30:18SPEAKERlike two vendors per category.
30:20SPEAKERCan we just, can we hop in here and like, okay.
30:22SPEAKER- We could try, there's a lot of politics.
30:24SPEAKER- You're gonna get Gordon in trouble.
30:25SPEAKER- Oh, sorry, I don't want to put you on the spot.
30:27SPEAKERLike, okay, like RAM vendors, like what are the,
30:30SPEAKERlike a couple that you would trust the most?
30:33SPEAKER- Boy, that one's, I honestly, I think probably, oh God.
30:39SPEAKERI've been, it's funny 'cause I've been using their memory
30:43SPEAKERfor all the testing recently and it's just totally not even,
30:46SPEAKERthis is so, this is so bad, I'm gonna look it up
30:47SPEAKERbecause I was just saying, I was just telling him like,
30:50SPEAKERhey, I'll see you at Computex.
30:53SPEAKER- Oh, hang on, if there are professional relationships
30:56SPEAKERto damage here.
30:56SPEAKER- No, no, no.
30:57SPEAKER- Skip this exercise.
30:58SPEAKER- I mean, 'cause I mean, again, that it's personal,
31:00SPEAKERyou know, as a reviewer, you don't, you could like things.
31:03SPEAKERLike I, 'cause we'll get the motherboards
31:05SPEAKERand I'll tell you why I like the motherboard I do.
31:07SPEAKER- Yeah, so that was my next question,
31:08SPEAKERis who's your favorite motherboard fender?
31:10SPEAKER- Yeah, like I, while you're looking this up,
31:12SPEAKERI can talk smack about motherboards.
31:13SPEAKERI stopped buying, I was an Asus guy for a really long time
31:17SPEAKERand then I stopped buying Asus boards
31:19SPEAKERbecause their USB implementations were always janky
31:21SPEAKERcompared to everybody else.
31:23SPEAKERSo like there weren't enough, there weren't enough,
31:26SPEAKERthey would do things like, oh, hook all of the USB ports
31:30SPEAKERand headers up to one USB root hub
31:33SPEAKERso that you were limited to 128 devices across that
31:35SPEAKERand it was consistently a problem.
31:37SPEAKERSo, or they wouldn't document like how the PCI express lanes
31:41SPEAKERare configured when you change like NVMe slots
31:45SPEAKERand based on which slots you use and stuff like that.
31:49SPEAKER- So it's G-Skill, sorry, I just like,
31:51SPEAKERhonestly, I have had, you know,
31:53SPEAKERa lot of luck with G-Skill lately.
31:55SPEAKERThey do seem, you know, they do seem really well,
31:57SPEAKERbut you know, again, I mean, number two,
31:59SPEAKERprobably Corsair because I have great relations with them,
32:02SPEAKERbut I mean, the problem with memory is it is,
32:05SPEAKERI mean, it's probably one of the most
32:06SPEAKERcommodity products there is, right?
32:09SPEAKERI don't know if you can hear that.
32:10SPEAKERIs that song on my end or your end?
32:12SPEAKER- I don't hear any music.
32:14SPEAKERThat's just in your head, Gordon.
32:15SPEAKER- Oh, he's a circuit, somebody's running a circular saw,
32:17SPEAKERI think, in the blog, but no.
32:18SPEAKERYeah, but so like, yeah, Gile and Corsair, okay, keep going.
32:22SPEAKER- Okay, buy a motherboard, favorite motherboard.
32:25SPEAKER- And I forgot to say, it is just commodity.
32:26SPEAKERRAM is really commodity parts,
32:28SPEAKERso it's not like it's a super secret deal or anything.
32:31SPEAKER- But if you want performance from it,
32:33SPEAKERit seems like you generally have to,
32:34SPEAKERthere's a handful of brands that are more reliable
32:37SPEAKERthan in my experience. - Yeah, so I will say this,
32:38SPEAKERlike when you mean reliability,
32:40SPEAKERI can't speak to memory suddenly not working,
32:43SPEAKERsuddenly the machine stops posting,
32:44SPEAKERbut I can say early on, the DDR5
32:47SPEAKERhad a lot of teething pains,
32:49SPEAKERhad a lot of lot of teething pains.
32:51SPEAKERLike I had a vendor said, like I say, who they are,
32:53SPEAKERthey sent me a memory, say, "Hey, you wanna check out
32:54SPEAKER"this memory?"
32:55SPEAKERHe's like, "Hey, you want boot with this memory?"
32:56SPEAKER(laughing)
32:58SPEAKERAnd then it's just, and a lot of it was because,
33:00SPEAKERyou know, one, there's still this thing called COVID
33:03SPEAKERin the world, and number two,
33:06SPEAKERit was so hard, like vendors,
33:08SPEAKERthey didn't have the boards to test with,
33:10SPEAKERand the vendors and the motherboard makers
33:12SPEAKERand the chip makers didn't have the RAM to test with,
33:14SPEAKERit was just very hard to validate the memory.
33:16SPEAKERThere was just a lot of incompatibilities early on
33:18SPEAKERthat went on for, it feels like way too long for DDR5.
33:22SPEAKERAt this point, most of it's gotta be nailed down.
33:24SPEAKERI haven't had any issues with that lately,
33:26SPEAKERbut I will tell you, like Greg Wiederman,
33:27SPEAKERwho we used to work with, David,
33:30SPEAKERhe was texting me about a problem he had where like,
33:33SPEAKER"Hey, would you be concerned if you got memory?"
33:36SPEAKERAnd it was, one of them was misidentified,
33:40SPEAKERlike he would boot the system up,
33:42SPEAKERand like one was like, so he paid for a higher clock speed,
33:46SPEAKERand one was the higher clock speed,
33:48SPEAKERand the other one was the lower clock speed,
33:50SPEAKERbut it ran fine, and this was a replacement
33:53SPEAKERfor the other kid he had bought on Amazon
33:54SPEAKERwhere it was unstable.
33:56SPEAKERSo I was like, (laughs)
33:58SPEAKERit was like, okay, clearly they didn't
34:00SPEAKEReither package those correctly or program the SPDs correctly,
34:03SPEAKERbut that's just, you know, early teething pains from memory.
34:06SPEAKER- Well, and it's one of those things,
34:09SPEAKERthe weird thing about memory bandwidth,
34:10SPEAKERat least on my i9 system, is that in Unreal Engine games,
34:14SPEAKERjacking up the memory bandwidth
34:15SPEAKERis maybe the most impactful thing you can do
34:17SPEAKERto improve performance on UE4 games.
34:20SPEAKER- Oh, really?
34:21SPEAKER- So yeah, you know, maybe buying,
34:23SPEAKERlike investing in good memory,
34:24SPEAKERit used to be that investing in good memory
34:26SPEAKERis for overclockers, and I think it's less,
34:28SPEAKERthat's less the case these days.
34:29SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, there's definitely,
34:31SPEAKERit does apply to some things,
34:33SPEAKERso that is, I think that's the only problem,
34:35SPEAKERsometimes I think people get a little too torqued up over,
34:37SPEAKERoh, I need 70, I need DDR5-7600 for whatever, $600,
34:41SPEAKERI'm sure it'll cost for a pair of modules,
34:43SPEAKERbut it's just like, is that gonna really help you
34:45SPEAKERas you compile your PDFs?
34:47SPEAKERIt's like, no, it probably won't,
34:48SPEAKERbut you know, it's just--
34:49SPEAKER- Photoshop's gonna open so fast, though.
34:51SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, but there's some applications in games
34:54SPEAKERwhere it does make a big difference.
34:56SPEAKER- I read, let's get Motherboard.
34:58SPEAKER- All right, favorite Motherboard vendor?
34:59SPEAKER- So you mentioned that you don't like Asus
35:02SPEAKERbecause you have problems.
35:04SPEAKERYou have, your anecdotal experience
35:06SPEAKERwas you had problems with how they do the USB applications.
35:09SPEAKER- One USB root hub for 10 ports
35:11SPEAKERis too many ports on one root hub.
35:13SPEAKER- I also just had, I've been building PCs since '97,
35:16SPEAKERand my first Motherboard to ever die
35:18SPEAKERwas an Asus about six, five months ago.
35:21SPEAKER- Yeah, so that's, yeah.
35:22SPEAKER- My number one choice is Asus,
35:25SPEAKERwhich is I knew it like, 'cause I know like,
35:27SPEAKERI mean, that's a problem with like,
35:28SPEAKERoh, well, you know, I had this problem
35:30SPEAKERwith this Ford I bought in 1998.
35:32SPEAKERI'm never gonna buy one, you know.
35:33SPEAKERHonestly, that's my VW story.
35:35SPEAKERYou buy one, VW is enough for you.
35:38SPEAKERI will never buy another VW because that's my experience,
35:41SPEAKERand that is my right, so I think you're both,
35:43SPEAKERyou both have that right, but I prefer the Asus.
35:46SPEAKERThe reason I like Asus is I prefer the BIOS.
35:49SPEAKERThe BIOS is very easy to, or, come on.
35:51SPEAKERAll right, I'm gonna say this
35:52SPEAKERbecause somebody out there is right now
35:54SPEAKERlike, just testing is like, the UEFI,
35:57SPEAKERlet's just call it the BIOS, okay?
35:59SPEAKERThe BIOS is just easy to navigate.
36:01SPEAKERYou can get there, I can, like,
36:03SPEAKERyou know where everything is. - You're comfortable.
36:04SPEAKER- But yeah, like, it's like a good couch.
36:06SPEAKER- It's, and it's very detailed.
36:08SPEAKERThey have a tremendous amount of control in there.
36:10SPEAKER- And it's not like Gigabyte and MSI don't,
36:12SPEAKERor ASRock give you the same amount of options,
36:15SPEAKERbut like, hell, I don't know where it is.
36:17SPEAKERLike, can we just have like a uniform standard Ford,
36:19SPEAKERbut they don't, they all call it something else.
36:21SPEAKER- So how about this, let's flip the motherboard one
36:24SPEAKERand put it the other way.
36:25SPEAKERAre there any motherboard vendors you would avoid?
36:28SPEAKER- Well, there's, like, honestly,
36:29SPEAKERthere aren't that many left.
36:31SPEAKER- Yeah, right, there's like five, right?
36:33SPEAKER- I mean, when I first started,
36:34SPEAKERthere were like, you know, 15 or 20 or more that,
36:38SPEAKERand that's just, that's just in consumers.
36:39SPEAKERI mean, there were so many, DFI, SOYO, Abit, right?
36:44SPEAKERI mean, there's just sort of like--
36:45SPEAKER- Dude, I miss DFI, I miss Abit.
36:48SPEAKER- God, they were like, I will.
36:49SPEAKERI just like, they're just all these,
36:51SPEAKERand the thing is they're probably still around.
36:52SPEAKERYeah, tie-in, they're still in business, too.
36:54SPEAKERThey make, you know, server boards.
36:56SPEAKERBut, you know, for consumer-facing boards,
36:58SPEAKERit's really down to, you know, four, right?
37:01SPEAKERIt feels like, I guess, I mean, what I consider EVGA,
37:04SPEAKERI think EVGA is still a very small motherboard vendor,
37:07SPEAKERbut when you think about it,
37:08SPEAKERit really comes down to ASUS, MSI, and Gigabyte.
37:11SPEAKER- The thing, honestly, I want from your UEFI/BIOS/the thing
37:15SPEAKERwhere you put in the numbers
37:16SPEAKERthat make your computer not work is,
37:19SPEAKERlike, I want the idiot mode.
37:21SPEAKERI want it to just be like, hey, this is this chip.
37:23SPEAKERWe know this is what you run on this.
37:25SPEAKERLike, this is how you run this CPU
37:27SPEAKERin a way that's not gonna make my room feel
37:29SPEAKERlike I'm the inside of a toaster oven
37:32SPEAKERand will not crash when I put load on it.
37:35SPEAKERLike, I don't wanna get in,
37:39SPEAKERlike, I don't wanna have to muck with voltages at this point.
37:41SPEAKERLike, I want it to just know what I'm putting in
37:43SPEAKERand be like, yo, here we go.
37:45SPEAKERI don't need the extra 3% performance or 10%.
37:48SPEAKERLike, I'm fine, it turns out.
37:49SPEAKERLike, eco mode is for you.
37:51SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, we have to talk about power consumption,
37:53SPEAKERbut let's, okay, what have I not done?
37:56SPEAKERPower supplies? - Power supplies.
37:58SPEAKER- Ooh, boy, so I've had, you know,
38:00SPEAKERI use a lot of Corsair power supplies.
38:02SPEAKERI haven't had any problems with it.
38:03SPEAKER- Same. - Oh, boy.
38:05SPEAKERI mean, number two, Silverstone, I use a lot of,
38:08SPEAKERI did have some problems with a couple during the pandemic
38:11SPEAKERin the mining phase where you could not get power supplies.
38:15SPEAKERI don't know if it was the cabling on those,
38:17SPEAKERbut I, you know, generally, Corsair, but, you know,
38:20SPEAKERthe problem with power supplies is, you know,
38:23SPEAKERmost people don't know this,
38:24SPEAKERbut there are very few actual power supply manufacturers,
38:28SPEAKERright, you've got like the three or four factories
38:30SPEAKERthat crank them out and you've got everybody else that,
38:33SPEAKERif you're mean on Reddit,
38:34SPEAKERyou say they just put their stickers on them.
38:36SPEAKERTo be honest, they don't, they do a lot of engineering,
38:38SPEAKERand it's just like, you know what,
38:41SPEAKERto say that these power supply manufacturers
38:43SPEAKERdo not make power supplies would be like saying
38:45SPEAKERApple does not make power phones, right?
38:48SPEAKERApple doesn't make shit either.
38:50SPEAKERThey just have somebody else make it in a factory,
38:52SPEAKERbut if you don't think Apple's engineers
38:54SPEAKERhave any contribution to that phone or that Mac,
38:57SPEAKERthen you're kind of high, right?
38:59SPEAKERSo to me, it's like very much the engineering
39:02SPEAKERthat goes into it, it does matter.
39:03SPEAKER- Yeah, when Corsair or Silverstone
39:06SPEAKERhave their power supplies manufactured,
39:08SPEAKERthey're sending them specs, like a component list, right?
39:11SPEAKERHey, we want these capacitors and we want these MOSFETs
39:14SPEAKERand all this stuff, yeah.
39:15SPEAKER- Right, and they may, I mean, they probably, in fact,
39:17SPEAKERdo their own designs, right?
39:19SPEAKERSo they, you know, the factories basically built a design.
39:23SPEAKERSo it is, they may not physically own the smokestack place,
39:27SPEAKERbut they're still, clearly you're getting
39:28SPEAKERthat power supply in there.
39:30SPEAKERBut they also, the same power supply companies,
39:33SPEAKERthey may multi-source, right?
39:34SPEAKERThey may order this model from this factory,
39:36SPEAKERthat model from that factory.
39:37SPEAKERSo I do think if you're talking about power supplies,
39:40SPEAKERit is important to talk about ATX 3.0,
39:42SPEAKERalthough I don't know if you want to keep that
39:43SPEAKERto the power consumption part,
39:45SPEAKERbut that is something people really need to think about
39:48SPEAKERas we go forward too, because--
39:49SPEAKER- What changes with ATX 3.0?
39:51SPEAKER- Well, ATX 3.0 was basically the first update to ATX
39:56SPEAKERin like, I don't know, decades kind of thing.
39:58SPEAKERLike, you could say like in decades,
39:59SPEAKERthere have been changes along the way.
40:02SPEAKERIntel pretty much makes the stand,
40:04SPEAKERthey write the standard that everybody uses,
40:06SPEAKERbecause by the way, they have long been 80 to 90%
40:09SPEAKERof PC sales in the world.
40:11SPEAKERThe main thing that really, there's a few changes,
40:14SPEAKERthey improve efficiency with it, so in a lot of ways,
40:18SPEAKERyou don't have to buy Intel's new ATX 12 VO 2.0,
40:23SPEAKERwhich is a new spec as well.
40:25SPEAKERIt uses, that uses a new connector,
40:27SPEAKERand that completely eliminates the, you know,
40:29SPEAKER3.3 and five volt rails, which they just feel like,
40:32SPEAKERwell, what do you even need these to,
40:33SPEAKERnobody even uses these stupid rails.
40:35SPEAKERAnd the problem with ATX 12 VO is they said,
40:40SPEAKERyou don't need three three volts and five volts,
40:43SPEAKEReverything's gonna be 12 volts out of the power supply,
40:45SPEAKERwhich makes it really, really efficient.
40:48SPEAKERWell, what do I do for my RAM and SSD?
40:50SPEAKERWell, you do the power conversion on the motherboards,
40:52SPEAKERand then that's started this whole back and forth
40:54SPEAKERbetween, well, then the motherboard maker
40:56SPEAKERhas to put more stuff in the board.
40:58SPEAKERThey got some pushback from that,
41:01SPEAKERbut you know, the main thing is ATX 12 VO,
41:04SPEAKERand there's a new one called ATX 12 VO 2,
41:07SPEAKERaddresses really the increasingly harsh standby regulations
41:14SPEAKERfrom the state of California and Oregon
41:15SPEAKERand all the sort of like, you know, pre-estates,
41:19SPEAKERI guess you could say, the ones that would,
41:21SPEAKERlike, wanna force you to, you know, be more efficient,
41:23SPEAKERand it lets vendors build systems that meet the,
41:28SPEAKERand new regulations that systems have to really use,
41:31SPEAKERlike, very, very low power when idling.
41:34SPEAKER- Well, and it gives a data connection
41:35SPEAKERbetween the power supply and the system, right?
41:37SPEAKER- Yeah, that's VO, the new 2.0 adds the ability
41:40SPEAKERfor the power supply to tell the system that,
41:44SPEAKERhey, you're at 95% load, and the system goes like,
41:48SPEAKERokay, we're gonna slow things down now,
41:50SPEAKERso that's kind of one new feature that they've added with,
41:53SPEAKERthat's ATX 12 VO, ATX 3.0 really just,
41:58SPEAKERthe main thing is it picked up a lot of the efficiencies
42:01SPEAKERfrom ATX 12 VO, but it also added,
42:06SPEAKERit was mainly made to address all of the power spikes
42:09SPEAKERor power transients, or excursions, as I like
42:12SPEAKERto call them for something, like a trip,
42:13SPEAKERoh, we're going on an excursion, like a vacation?
42:16SPEAKERYeah, your GPU's gonna use 700 watts,
42:18SPEAKERoh, that doesn't sound like a vacation to me.
42:20SPEAKER- It's an excursion to your power bill.
42:22SPEAKER- Yeah, they basically said, like, so, okay,
42:24SPEAKERfor this, you have to be able, the power supply
42:27SPEAKERhas to have the capacitance to deal with a spike
42:32SPEAKERthat will hit, you know, two times the power requirements
42:35SPEAKERof, like, it's all laid out in the spec,
42:38SPEAKERbut you may have to hit, like, you know,
42:40SPEAKER1200 watts for, you know, 10 milliseconds,
42:43SPEAKERor, you know, 10 microseconds or something like that,
42:45SPEAKERand the main thing is, what it really does is it,
42:49SPEAKERit actually puts guidelines in place,
42:52SPEAKERbecause when, for AMD and for Nvidia and for Intel,
42:55SPEAKERthey make graphics cards, they make these cards
42:58SPEAKERthat are getting really, obviously, very power hungry,
43:01SPEAKERand with the 3000 series, what you're having
43:04SPEAKERwith the power supply is that they would spike up
43:05SPEAKERand suddenly use a lot of power.
43:07SPEAKERIf you had this cheap-ass power supply,
43:09SPEAKERit didn't have big enough capacitors, kapow, right,
43:11SPEAKERyou crash, so a lot of people were having crashing issues.
43:15SPEAKERThe problem is, for the video card vendors,
43:18SPEAKERthey didn't really know, like, so how do I,
43:21SPEAKERthey really had no boundaries, so ATX 3.0 adds,
43:24SPEAKERso here are the boundaries, we're putting this in the spec,
43:27SPEAKERif you stay within these boundaries,
43:29SPEAKERand you're using an ATX 3.0 power supply, you're fine.
43:32SPEAKERSo one way to do that with a non-3.0 power supply
43:34SPEAKERis one, you buy a really good power supply,
43:36SPEAKERor you oversize it, right, so,
43:39SPEAKER'cause you're hopefully, if you're oversized,
43:40SPEAKERthey use larger capacitors to get you a little more, so.
43:44SPEAKER- And you have the overhead to absorb those spikes,
43:46SPEAKERis the idea. - Yeah, I mean,
43:47SPEAKERthat's the hope, but to me, I kinda think, like,
43:49SPEAKERif I'm gonna go out and buy an expensive new power supply
43:52SPEAKERnow, and looking forward, I'd probably want an ATX 3.0,
43:56SPEAKERbut the one thing that everybody got confused about
43:59SPEAKERis they thought that GeForce 4000 was going
44:02SPEAKERto require ATX 3.0, and it doesn't,
44:04SPEAKERit runs perfectly fine on existing power supplies.
44:07SPEAKERSo in fact, it's got even tighter regulation
44:10SPEAKERthan the 3000 series, which are the ones
44:12SPEAKERthat were kinda like pushing those, you know,
44:14SPEAKERborderline power supplies over the cliff,
44:15SPEAKERand this is apparently, they've lived up to it,
44:18SPEAKERand you can use your existing power supply,
44:20SPEAKERbut, you know, next generation, no promises, right?
44:24SPEAKER- Oh, great, I feel wonderful, as somebody who just bought
44:26SPEAKERa very high-end 1000 watt power supply, like, two months ago.
44:30SPEAKER- That's in your NAS, though, right?
44:32SPEAKER- No, that was for my desktop.
44:33SPEAKER- Oh, yeah. - I was one of those people,
44:35SPEAKERI'm exactly one of those people he's talking about,
44:37SPEAKERI was using, I got a 3080 Founders Edition,
44:39SPEAKERand I had a, what, eight-year-old power supply,
44:41SPEAKERand I was getting crashes and reboots, sure enough.
44:44SPEAKER- Yeah. - Because that thing
44:46SPEAKERwas spiking it past, I mean, it was only, like,
44:48SPEAKERa 750 watt to begin with, and it was old.
44:52SPEAKER- Yeah, and you probably couldn't even see it,
44:53SPEAKERbecause you, I mean, like, it would look like
44:56SPEAKERit probably wasn't using the power,
44:57SPEAKERbut you, they're literally pushing it
44:59SPEAKERfor just microseconds, and it--
45:00SPEAKER- Yes, totally, I was watching the voltages,
45:02SPEAKERI was like, this seems fine, what is going on here, yes.
45:05SPEAKER- You know, and supposedly,
45:06SPEAKERpower supplies don't last forever, they wear out,
45:08SPEAKERbut I don't know if that's true, I'm gonna guess.
45:11SPEAKER- I had to replace one of my daughter's computer
45:13SPEAKERthe other day, just because it was six years old,
45:17SPEAKERand, you know, it was crashing on high load
45:25SPEAKERwith a 3000 series card when I think about it.
45:29SPEAKERYeah, so anyway.
45:31SPEAKER- This is actually, I think it's important to point out,
45:33SPEAKERis don't go by 80 plus, everybody goes by 80 plus, right,
45:37SPEAKER'cause they view that as a sign of quality,
45:40SPEAKERand the only thing it endorses is efficiency ratings
45:44SPEAKERat four different levels.
45:47SPEAKER- Yeah, was it 10, 20, and 50?
45:49SPEAKER- No, I think there's 80. - 80, 85, and 90, I think,
45:53SPEAKERright? - Yeah, I forget what it is,
45:54SPEAKERbut you know, it's basically they have to hit
45:56SPEAKERthose four points, and that's it, we give you the sticker,
45:58SPEAKERand then a lot of people go, well, I want 80 plus gold,
46:01SPEAKERand honestly, it doesn't mean anything except
46:03SPEAKERthat it hits those four fairly conservative points.
46:06SPEAKERThere's a new competing specification, it's called,
46:12SPEAKERI think it's made by ETA, but it's called Cybernetic,
46:15SPEAKERlike think cybernetics, but remove R.
46:19SPEAKER- That's a bad name.
46:20SPEAKER- Yeah, but the nice thing is, so originally they had it,
46:23SPEAKERthey have these, 'cause the person who created it is Greek,
46:28SPEAKERso there was like, they had all these kind of like
46:30SPEAKERGreek things, and clearly, as Americans,
46:33SPEAKERwe don't understand Greek things,
46:34SPEAKER'cause I still don't know what Omicron is,
46:36SPEAKERI haven't figured it out, right, so I don't know.
46:38SPEAKERSo they basically, they use the McDowell's approach,
46:45SPEAKERessentially, so 80 plus, which is the one
46:47SPEAKERthat everybody recognizes, they see it as actually
46:50SPEAKERthe brand of value, I want the 80 plus sticker,
46:52SPEAKERyou got the cybernetic sticker, it's a cybernetics,
46:58SPEAKERsomething gold, so like, oh, you got 80 plus gold?
47:01SPEAKERThey got cybernetics gold, like ETA gold
47:03SPEAKERor something like that, so it's like,
47:04SPEAKERthey got the Big Mac, we got the Big Mac,
47:06SPEAKERit's just like, does anybody know this movie?
47:08SPEAKER- You got the Big King over there, man,
47:10SPEAKERthat's what you're getting at, the Burger King these days.
47:14SPEAKER- So, okay, so since we talked about power consumption,
47:16SPEAKERI mean, that, to me, that was the million dollar question
47:18SPEAKERcoming in here, you talk about 13th Gen Intel
47:21SPEAKERhaving performance advantages in some contexts,
47:24SPEAKERhow many extra watts are they sucking down
47:26SPEAKERto achieve those?
47:27SPEAKER- It depends, so it could be, and I think that
47:32SPEAKERthis is one of those things where, you know,
47:34SPEAKERI actually saw the same thing happen with 12th Gen
47:37SPEAKERand the internet meme that came out
47:39SPEAKERand the narrative that ran away was,
47:41SPEAKERoh my god, these Intel CPUs, like, your lights
47:44SPEAKERwill brown out when you start, if you're doing something,
47:47SPEAKERand I will say, let me pull up an actual chart
47:49SPEAKERso I'm just not making something up here,
47:51SPEAKERbut like, I'm gonna look at this Blender load,
47:52SPEAKERso I ran Blender, and there's a lot of things
47:58SPEAKERto this conversation, this is only the 13900K,
48:00SPEAKERwhich is where you're really pushing it to the edge,
48:03SPEAKERbut, so for reference, a Ryzen 9 7950X,
48:09SPEAKERtotal system power, this is the complete system,
48:12SPEAKERmaybe pushing 340 watts under load,
48:17SPEAKERwhile rendering a scene in Blender 3-3,
48:23SPEAKERand of course, remember, the Ryzen 7950X,
48:26SPEAKERpeople were kinda losing their shit,
48:27SPEAKERbecause like, oh my god, it's using so much more power
48:30SPEAKERthan a 5950X, 'cause a 5950X would have been
48:32SPEAKERlike 220 watts or something like that,
48:34SPEAKERso 7950X was considerably more power,
48:37SPEAKERalso considerably fast, much, it's like 40% faster
48:41SPEAKERthan the 5950X, same core count, too.
48:43SPEAKERSo we get to basically 13th Gen,
48:47SPEAKERand there's two ways to look at this,
48:49SPEAKERso when you put your 13th Gen CPU into a motherboard,
48:53SPEAKERand you build your new machine,
48:56SPEAKERIntel has a spec that they publish,
48:59SPEAKERit's not really a spec, it's more of a guideline,
49:01SPEAKERthat's like, okay, well this chip is,
49:03SPEAKERif you look on Intel's page, it will say
49:06SPEAKERthat Core i9-1300K is 253 watt,
49:14SPEAKERTDP, right, so that is what,
49:18SPEAKERlike I tested at 253, which is kinda stock,
49:22SPEAKERbut if you buy any motherboard that costs a lot of,
49:25SPEAKERlike any high-end motherboard, they're gonna say,
49:27SPEAKERoh, we're just gonna take that, recommend that guideline,
49:30SPEAKERit's like Pirates of the Caribbean, it's just a guideline,
49:33SPEAKERit's not a rule, and crank it to the skies.
49:36SPEAKERSo, but testing it at the Intel spec of 253 PL1, PL2,
49:43SPEAKERyou're looking at maybe 420 watts up from AMD's 340,
49:48SPEAKERso suddenly Ryzen 97950X, not looking so bad, honestly,
49:52SPEAKERbut the crazy thing is, when you run unlimited PL1, PL2,
49:56SPEAKERwhich a lot of the very high-end motherboards are doing,
49:58SPEAKERbecause, you know, MSI--
50:00SPEAKER- What is PL1, Gordon, PL1, PL2?
50:02SPEAKER- You could think of them as, well, they're power limits,
50:05SPEAKERbut you could think of them as sort of gears
50:07SPEAKERthat the CPU shifts at, so like, but it's in reverse,
50:10SPEAKERso like, you would have a PL2, in the older days,
50:13SPEAKERyou would have a PL2 that might be, like,
50:16SPEAKERfor a CPU in a laptop, it might be like,
50:18SPEAKERso like, hey, this is a 15-watt TDP chip.
50:22SPEAKEROh, it was 15-watt TDP, but the PL2 for that,
50:27SPEAKERwhich is basically the first gear that it starts in,
50:31SPEAKERmight be 80 watts, so you could actually have
50:33SPEAKERthis little two-and-a-half-pound laptop
50:35SPEAKERthat the PL1 is 65 watts, which is,
50:41SPEAKERif you think about it, it's like,
50:41SPEAKERwow, that's a lot of wattage, but it's like,
50:43SPEAKERit is like, is like milliseconds, like, so it's basically--
50:47SPEAKER- It's like a momentary spike, and then the heat dissipates.
50:49SPEAKER- Yeah, so then you crank down to your PL2,
50:51SPEAKERyou sort of shift down to your second gear,
50:53SPEAKERand like, okay, we're gonna run up to 65 watts for,
50:55SPEAKERyou know, like, five milliseconds,
50:58SPEAKERand then now we're gonna shift down to, say,
51:00SPEAKER28 watts for 56 seconds.
51:04SPEAKER- Yeah.
51:04SPEAKER- So then those are basically sort of your gears,
51:06SPEAKERbut with 12th Gen, they kind of,
51:09SPEAKERat the high end, they did away with that.
51:11SPEAKERBasically, they say, the way to describe it
51:13SPEAKERis PL1 equals PL2, basically, it runs forever.
51:17SPEAKERI think the easiest way to understand it is like,
51:19SPEAKERthe CPUs are so smart, they manage it all themselves,
51:22SPEAKERbut they manage it all themselves,
51:24SPEAKERbut they do that at the behest of the motherboard.
51:26SPEAKERThe motherboard tells them what to do,
51:28SPEAKERand by the way, Asus, MSI, and Gigabyte
51:30SPEAKERlike to sell you motherboards.
51:32SPEAKERYou know what sells motherboards?
51:33SPEAKERThey see your review, and you're at that top of the list.
51:36SPEAKERSo if you're the number one on the list
51:38SPEAKERof all the C790 boards, or all the AMD motherboards,
51:42SPEAKERthat's what people buy, right?
51:43SPEAKER'Cause you're in the first.
51:45SPEAKERI don't want the, I'm not gonna go to the race
51:47SPEAKERand buy the car that's number three, right?
51:49SPEAKERYou want the one that's in first,
51:50SPEAKERso they push it as hard as they can.
51:52SPEAKERSo when you push, but the thing is,
51:54SPEAKERso a lot of the reviews that you saw there were like,
51:56SPEAKERoh man, unlimited?
51:57SPEAKERThis sucker is like, so 13900K running blender,
52:01SPEAKERit's pushing almost 500 watts. (laughs)
52:04SPEAKERIt's very impressive, too, in a kind of cool way,
52:06SPEAKERbecause that's just a CPU load.
52:08SPEAKERThis is not the GPU.
52:09SPEAKERSo think of it as like, so I don't have the exact number
52:12SPEAKERfor a 5950X, but it might be 220, 230 watts.
52:17SPEAKER- It's like taking the restrictor off of a sports car.
52:19SPEAKER- Yeah, no, and so they run it very hard,
52:21SPEAKERand a lot of people are like,
52:21SPEAKERholy shit, these things are really hot.
52:23SPEAKERBut the other thing I do want to point out
52:24SPEAKERin the power consumption is like, wow, 500 watts is insane,
52:27SPEAKERand that's where, of course, you get all the memes.
52:28SPEAKERLike, this thing is just stupidly,
52:30SPEAKERit's just throwing power.
52:32SPEAKERAnd of course, you remember, you put power into a chip,
52:33SPEAKERit comes out as heat, whatever.
52:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
52:35SPEAKER- But that's awesome in the winter, though.
52:37SPEAKERBut I think people, they kind of lost.
52:42SPEAKERYou have to look at the whole picture.
52:43SPEAKERI keep having discussions, I'm calling them nicely,
52:46SPEAKERdiscussions with people on YouTube about this.
52:47SPEAKERLike, look, yes, if you're really gonna sit there all day
52:51SPEAKERand use Blender or any 3D renderer and really do batches
52:56SPEAKERand batches and hours and hours and hours
52:58SPEAKERwho are using every single core on a 13th gen,
53:01SPEAKERyes, you will use a lot of power.
53:03SPEAKERAnd Ryzen 7000 will use definitely less power,
53:06SPEAKERespecially if it's uncapped.
53:08SPEAKERBut if you actually look at, like, things,
53:11SPEAKERwell, I also recorded, and we have a story up there,
53:14SPEAKERbut if you actually look, I also logged the power consumption
53:18SPEAKERof 13th gen and 7000 and 12th gen and 5000
53:23SPEAKERwhere you're running, say, Premiere, right?
53:26SPEAKERAnd honestly, eh, it's not a big deal.
53:28SPEAKERThis is just taking, I remember earlier,
53:30SPEAKERI was talking about Pooja Bench.
53:31SPEAKERYou run Pooja Bench, it runs like a 25-minute script
53:35SPEAKERusing Premiere, real-world application.
53:37SPEAKERIt does edits to it, it exports it,
53:38SPEAKERand then it's honestly not a big deal.
53:41SPEAKERYeah, there's definitely times when 13th gen
53:44SPEAKERcan use a lot more power when you're using all those cores,
53:47SPEAKERbut the sad thing about our existence is
53:51SPEAKERpeople are buying 24-core and 16-core CPUs,
53:54SPEAKERand you are very rarely ever using them all.
53:56SPEAKERSo, and in fact, on light loads,
53:59SPEAKER13th gen and even 12th gen can use less power than AMD.
54:03SPEAKER- Because of the efficiency cores?
54:05SPEAKER- Eh, it could be the efficiency cores.
54:06SPEAKERIt also could be, they just idle with a little less power,
54:09SPEAKERand then for AMD, because they have their I/O die,
54:12SPEAKERI saw some theory out there that it could be the I/O die,
54:14SPEAKER'cause I/O die is always hot no matter what,
54:16SPEAKERso you have this piece of silicon
54:17SPEAKERthat's always hot on the chip.
54:19SPEAKERThat could be it.
54:20SPEAKERI'm not really sure, but I think people need to step away
54:24SPEAKERfrom the narrative like, oh god, this thing is like,
54:26SPEAKERit's gonna light the earth on fire.
54:29SPEAKERYeah, it's gonna light the earth on fire
54:30SPEAKERif you're gonna sit there and run Cinema 4D
54:33SPEAKER23 hours out of the day, but are you really doing that?
54:37SPEAKERAnd most people are not, and if you look at Photoshop,
54:39SPEAKERLightroom, Premiere, browsing,
54:44SPEAKER13th gen is really no different than AMD.
54:47SPEAKER- The one thing that people do do that hits the CPU,
54:51SPEAKERand of course the GPU also,
54:53SPEAKERover long periods of time, is play games.
54:54SPEAKERI mean, I think the most multi-threaded game I've seen
54:58SPEAKERmaybe hits six cores occasionally, but what's the difference
55:03SPEAKERon the gaming side?
55:05SPEAKER- So, if you actually look at,
55:08SPEAKERso I did the same thing for using a couple games.
55:10SPEAKEROne is Horizon Zero Dawn, and the other one is Metro Exodus,
55:14SPEAKERand I basically record the amount of power it uses
55:17SPEAKERduring those runs, and it's no big deal.
55:19SPEAKERAnd honestly, it's like 13th gen and Ryzen 7,000,
55:23SPEAKERand you can look at the actual,
55:26SPEAKERI actually think it's nice because I like to see,
55:29SPEAKERso I'm basically logging the power used
55:32SPEAKERwith external logging watt meters
55:34SPEAKERwhile it's playing the game,
55:36SPEAKERor while it's using the application that logs it
55:37SPEAKERevery second.
55:38SPEAKERI think that's more useful than simply looking
55:40SPEAKERat the peak power, 'cause I think realistically
55:43SPEAKERyou get a better idea for it, but honestly it's,
55:47SPEAKERyes, if you are using the,
55:50SPEAKERI think Spider-Man supposedly is gonna use a lot of cores,
55:52SPEAKERbut there are very, very few games that use it.
55:56SPEAKERThe vast majority of games, unfortunately,
55:58SPEAKERare very lightly to single-threaded,
56:00SPEAKERwhich, I mean, it sucks for us.
56:02SPEAKERAnd again, I think it's like why,
56:06SPEAKERyou're kinda getting ripped off by paying
56:07SPEAKERfor all these cores if you're playing games, mostly,
56:10SPEAKERbecause, and I know people say like,
56:13SPEAKERoh, I play multi-world, and I don't know,
56:15SPEAKERbut I just know that in general,
56:17SPEAKERfor the vast majority of games that people do,
56:20SPEAKERit doesn't make that much difference,
56:21SPEAKER'cause you know what's eating up all the power,
56:23SPEAKERso we're up, if you look at the results I have,
56:25SPEAKERI'm up over 500 watts, almost 600 watts with 3090s, right?
56:30SPEAKERSo it's the GPU using most of the power,
56:34SPEAKERand I think people getting all excited
56:37SPEAKERabout the power consumption of the CPUs in gaming is,
56:40SPEAKERI think it's not worth it.
56:42SPEAKERI would like it if we actually got to the point
56:44SPEAKERwhere they were all using 16 or 18 threads in the home,
56:48SPEAKERyou really do have to have a bigger power supply,
56:50SPEAKERthen we can talk, but reality is the applications
56:53SPEAKERand the games are not there yet, unfortunately,
56:56SPEAKERin my opinion, but maybe somebody else.
56:58SPEAKERI think a lot of people just kind of look at the memes
57:00SPEAKERof the fire and all that and get a little carried away by it,
57:03SPEAKERbut it's, if you really stand back
57:06SPEAKERand look at real world usage,
57:08SPEAKERit's not that big of a difference.
57:10SPEAKER- Games are just traditionally hard to parallelize, right,
57:13SPEAKERin my understanding?
57:14SPEAKER- Yes.
57:15SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, but it's funny,
57:16SPEAKERalso your game developers, they're not like,
57:20SPEAKERoh yeah, if you're a game developer, especially on PC,
57:24SPEAKERyou develop for what everybody has.
57:27SPEAKERSo you, like Fortnite, oh yeah,
57:29SPEAKERwe're gonna make a version of Fortnite
57:31SPEAKERthat you have to have a Core i9-13900K to run on,
57:34SPEAKERand a 4090, it's like, no, I wanna make money.
57:37SPEAKERThat's what they, you know, they're making them all
57:38SPEAKERto run the absolute lowest common denominator,
57:41SPEAKERso it's just not gonna happen, I think.
57:44SPEAKER- It's really, it turns out it was almost impossible
57:47SPEAKERto get a 4090 CPU bound on even an,
57:50SPEAKERlike, rather, to not be CPU bound
57:53SPEAKERon everything that I tested with, so.
57:55SPEAKER- Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to it,
57:57SPEAKER'cause I think, like, my opinion, frankly, for gaming,
58:02SPEAKERif you're looking at a Ryzen,
58:03SPEAKERif you're looking at a Ryzen 9 or Core i9 for gaming
58:06SPEAKERwith a 4090, I, why are you even worried?
58:10SPEAKER- Doesn't matter.
58:11SPEAKER- Why are you, you know, I mean,
58:13SPEAKERbut that was with a 3090.
58:15SPEAKERWith a 4090, there might be more of a delta between the two.
58:18SPEAKERI'd have a hard time believing it to be
58:21SPEAKERthat much of a difference, but I'm excited to see 4090,
58:24SPEAKERbecause 4090 really did set people back in their butts
58:27SPEAKERand go, holy shit, you know,
58:28SPEAKERthis thing is just stupidly fast.
58:30SPEAKER- It's the first time I remember seeing a performance delta
58:32SPEAKERlike that in the, like, since the early days of video cards,
58:36SPEAKERright, like, since when exciting stuff happened
58:38SPEAKERevery time a new chip came out.
58:41SPEAKER- It's crazy, right?
58:42SPEAKERYeah, I mean, this really was, like,
58:43SPEAKERNvidia flexing on everybody, I mean, it really,
58:45SPEAKERyou gotta respect that.
58:46SPEAKERThey have a lot of haters because they always do so well,
58:49SPEAKERthey always win.
58:50SPEAKERNobody likes dynasties.
58:52SPEAKERThey all wanna tear you down, and they (laughs)
58:56SPEAKER- Tell us how you feel about Tom Brady, Gordon.
58:58SPEAKER- You know, when, you know what, during their dynasty,
59:01SPEAKER'cause I'm a Raiders fan, man, I hate Tom Brady.
59:03SPEAKERI absolutely hate Tom Brady.
59:05SPEAKERTom Brady, he's a cheater.
59:07SPEAKERThey're patriots, they're cheaters.
59:08SPEAKERThat's all, and the league's always got against the Raiders,
59:11SPEAKERbut I will say today, you know, he's the greatest,
59:15SPEAKERhe's the greatest of all time.
59:16SPEAKERThere's no way I would ever put Joe Montana
59:19SPEAKERahead of Tom Brady at this point.
59:21SPEAKERRight, I mean, he's just incredible.
59:22SPEAKERAnd, like, same thing, but I mean,
59:23SPEAKER- He could be really good at the game and still suck, though.
59:25SPEAKERThat's the thing to remember.
59:27SPEAKER- See, but I can step out of my fanboy hate
59:30SPEAKERand just, I can say, like, indeed,
59:32SPEAKERTom Brady is the greatest.
59:35SPEAKERHe's incredible, right?
59:36SPEAKERAnd even though I hate him, I'm a Raiders fan.
59:38SPEAKERI hate him.
59:39SPEAKERThat was a fumble.
59:40SPEAKERLike, how more could you not,
59:42SPEAKERhow could you fumble the ball more?
59:44SPEAKERMaybe, like, it fell on the field and exploded,
59:47SPEAKERand then, like, confetti came out of it,
59:48SPEAKERand then maybe fireworks, is that like a fumble?
59:51SPEAKERWhat else would make that a fumble, you know?
59:54SPEAKERSo, yes, I hate Tom Brady, but I will also say,
59:57SPEAKERbecause if you ask me, and I'm not being a fanboy,
1:00:01SPEAKERhe's the greatest of all.
1:00:02SPEAKERYou know, you can't say it, there's nobody else.
1:00:04SPEAKERHe's still playing, for God's sake, it's crazy.
1:00:06SPEAKER- So, let's see, I mean, we haven't really dug into,
1:00:09SPEAKERlike, what actually changed with these new CPUs.
1:00:11SPEAKERIt seems like the Zen 4 stuff is architecturally
1:00:15SPEAKERreally interesting, it seems like,
1:00:17SPEAKERand it seems like my read on the Intel stuff
1:00:19SPEAKERis it's kind of, like, more of the same,
1:00:21SPEAKERbut faster, better, stronger.
1:00:22SPEAKERIs that, do you think that's fair?
1:00:25SPEAKER- I mean, yeah, I mean, God, you know,
1:00:26SPEAKERthe funny thing is I used to try to understand
1:00:30SPEAKERthe microarchitecture a lot more.
1:00:32SPEAKERHonestly, these days, I've gotten to the point
1:00:34SPEAKERwhere, like, you know, let me push the button,
1:00:37SPEAKERand I'll tell you what's fastest.
1:00:39SPEAKERIt's kind of funny, but I do agree, though,
1:00:41SPEAKERlike, 'cause it is important,
1:00:42SPEAKERbecause I think the problem is, you know,
1:00:44SPEAKERyears and years of having all the really smart people,
1:00:47SPEAKERand the people who make these things are, like, beyond smart.
1:00:49SPEAKERLike, when they talk to us, I mean, for them,
1:00:52SPEAKERit must be, like, going out to talk to your cat, right?
1:00:55SPEAKERBecause it's just, like, they are so far above us
1:00:58SPEAKERas mere mortals, and there's a few of us
1:01:01SPEAKERin the tech press that can actually understand them,
1:01:03SPEAKERand they are super smart people.
1:01:05SPEAKERI kind of think, like, but at the same time,
1:01:06SPEAKERyeah, AMD, you know, Ryzen 7000, you know,
1:01:10SPEAKERI think a lot of it's, they picked up it from cache,
1:01:12SPEAKERyou know, they actually have a breakdown from awesome,
1:01:15SPEAKERkind of, like, where they pick up this perf,
1:01:19SPEAKERwhere they picked up performance.
1:01:20SPEAKERLike, some of the IPCs is microarchitecture,
1:01:24SPEAKERsome of it's on, you know, process and all that,
1:01:27SPEAKERbut I said cache, really, but they picked up a lot of it,
1:01:29SPEAKERreally, just on the process, right?
1:01:31SPEAKER'Cause they went to a new process for the I/O die end,
1:01:34SPEAKERand the CPU dies.
1:01:36SPEAKERI think that's where they got a lot of it,
1:01:37SPEAKERand also, you know, beyond the magical tuning
1:01:41SPEAKERthat very few of us can understand in the cores,
1:01:43SPEAKERthey also used a socket that gave them more power,
1:01:47SPEAKER'cause AM4 was very limited with power, right?
1:01:49SPEAKERIt was, like, 200, I can't remember what it was.
1:01:51SPEAKERIt was, like, 205.
1:01:53SPEAKERIt was very low. - Very fat, yeah.
1:01:55SPEAKER- Right, and that, honestly, I think that kind of
1:01:57SPEAKERlimited them, because I was just saying today,
1:01:59SPEAKERit's just like, man, you know, if they,
1:02:01SPEAKERif AM4 wasn't so limited with power, you know,
1:02:04SPEAKERthey probably could've pushed 5,000 harder, right?
1:02:07SPEAKERBut they just simply ran out of power at the socket.
1:02:10SPEAKERSo you combine all of the magic of TSMC's best process,
1:02:15SPEAKERyou take the designs to the chip itself,
1:02:18SPEAKERI think the cache is a little larger as well,
1:02:20SPEAKERall the tweaks, all this stuff,
1:02:22SPEAKERand then you add the fact that they have a socket
1:02:24SPEAKERthat can give them more power, you know,
1:02:26SPEAKERand it's just a total package that gives them,
1:02:28SPEAKERyou know, again, to go 40% faster
1:02:31SPEAKERin multi-core performance over your previous generation part
1:02:36SPEAKERthat was also the same core count is incredible, right?
1:02:39SPEAKERBut it's sort of like it's spread across
1:02:40SPEAKERall these different things, you know,
1:02:42SPEAKERand then also, you know, going to DDR5
1:02:44SPEAKERprobably helps them in some applications.
1:02:45SPEAKERThere's just, there's just a lot that goes into it.
1:02:48SPEAKERSo I think it's, I don't get too far down
1:02:51SPEAKERthe, you know, chip nerd talk stuff, but,
1:02:54SPEAKERand then for Intel, yeah, I would say it was less of a,
1:02:57SPEAKERless radical than AMD.
1:02:58SPEAKERThey are clearly, Intel has clearly been hamstrung,
1:03:02SPEAKERyou know, by process, right?
1:03:03SPEAKERThis is again, another Intel 7 part, which is 10 nanometer,
1:03:07SPEAKERbut you know, they've started like,
1:03:08SPEAKERsince nanometers don't really mean anything
1:03:10SPEAKERand they've turned into cynical marketing, you know,
1:03:12SPEAKER'cause like, oh my God, TSMC5 nanometers, awesome.
1:03:16SPEAKERIs it, you know, Intel started,
1:03:17SPEAKERthey started doing this like six years ago, like,
1:03:19SPEAKERwell, what's a nanometer anyway?
1:03:21SPEAKERWhat does that mean, right?
1:03:22SPEAKERAnd it's true because they're like,
1:03:24SPEAKERif you try to find out, like, it doesn't like,
1:03:27SPEAKER'cause not every single structure on the chip
1:03:29SPEAKERis five nanometer.
1:03:30SPEAKERThere's some things that are much larger,
1:03:31SPEAKERthere's some things, you know,
1:03:33SPEAKERit really did come down to,
1:03:34SPEAKERso they were pushing this thing like,
1:03:36SPEAKERwe want to have a metric for, you know, based on the density
1:03:41SPEAKERso we want to have no transistors packed into like,
1:03:45SPEAKERsquare millimeters and that would be,
1:03:47SPEAKER'cause that would be, you know, more representative
1:03:49SPEAKERbecause you could, you could literally look at the die
1:03:52SPEAKERand say, well, like, this is five nanometer,
1:03:54SPEAKEReverything else here is 18, but this one's five,
1:03:56SPEAKERso it's fine, you know.
1:03:57SPEAKERThey were, obviously, they weren't doing that,
1:03:58SPEAKERbut it's just, that was kind of their messaging,
1:04:00SPEAKERbut, you know, a lot of people sort of saw that as proactive
1:04:03SPEAKERlike, oh shit, we're stuck here (laughs)
1:04:06SPEAKERat a 14 nanometer and we're never gonna get off this,
1:04:09SPEAKERso we're gonna start talking about this, so.
1:04:11SPEAKERBut yeah, they, you know, Intel is on Intel 7,
1:04:15SPEAKERwhich is, you know, ostensibly Intel 10 nanometer.
1:04:19SPEAKERA lot of them, a lot of the same things too, right?
1:04:21SPEAKERThey're just giving you more.
1:04:23SPEAKERThey're, you know, they went to a hybrid design
1:04:26SPEAKER'cause now you're getting, before you got 16 cores
1:04:28SPEAKERout of 12th gen, now you're getting 24,
1:04:31SPEAKERyou're getting eight plus 16.
1:04:33SPEAKERSo you're getting-- - So 16 big cores
1:04:35SPEAKERand eight small cores?
1:04:36SPEAKER- Yeah, eight big cores 'cause they're multi-threaded.
1:04:39SPEAKER- Well, they don't call it big, little
1:04:41SPEAKERbecause that's ARM's thing, so it's eight performance cores
1:04:44SPEAKERand 16 efficiency cores.
1:04:47SPEAKERAnd you're literally getting a crap load more cores
1:04:50SPEAKERand that adds up, you know, in multi-threaded workloads
1:04:53SPEAKER'cause again, they're right there with, you know, AMD,
1:04:56SPEAKERwhich essentially has 16, you know, big cores
1:04:59SPEAKERor performance cores, so.
1:05:01SPEAKER- Do you have to do Windows 11?
1:05:04SPEAKERYou have to do Windows 11 to take advantage
1:05:06SPEAKERof the performance and efficiency cores, right?
1:05:10SPEAKER- You know, it still works.
1:05:12SPEAKERI'm actually doing testing right now
1:05:14SPEAKERbetween Windows 10 and 11.
1:05:16SPEAKERI opted to do that to just find out and it still does work.
1:05:20SPEAKERI was kinda surprised 'cause I was like, man,
1:05:21SPEAKERam I gonna have to like run 85 things
1:05:23SPEAKERto find the 10 things that there's a difference in?
1:05:26SPEAKERAnd the first things I've run are it's, you know,
1:05:30SPEAKERPhotoshop and Premiere and Word, Office Suite stuff
1:05:33SPEAKERand that's 'cause I have a script I can run them all in
1:05:37SPEAKERfor you all's Procyon.
1:05:39SPEAKERAnd there is actually, I was kinda surprised.
1:05:41SPEAKERI thought it wouldn't make any difference.
1:05:42SPEAKERSo the exact same 13th Gen box, I then threw a second,
1:05:45SPEAKERyou know, another identical SSD into it
1:05:47SPEAKERand loaded Windows 10 in.
1:05:49SPEAKERIt looked like it was about five or 6% slower in Windows 10.
1:05:52SPEAKERI haven't had a chance to dive into all the numbers,
1:05:54SPEAKERbut there was a real advantage going just to Windows 11.
1:05:57SPEAKERAnd I'm not using the latest version of Windows 11,
1:06:00SPEAKERwhich supposedly gives them more of a bump too, so.
1:06:03SPEAKER- There is no thread director for Windows 10, right?
1:06:06SPEAKER- Well, I mean, thread director is internal to the CPU,
1:06:08SPEAKERright, so it should still do it.
1:06:11SPEAKER- It's the hardware scheduler thing that Windows 11 does.
1:06:14SPEAKER- Yeah, and it's improved in the, I mean,
1:06:17SPEAKERthat's why some people, it makes me wonder, like,
1:06:19SPEAKERmaybe some of AMD's issues are, you know,
1:06:22SPEAKERthey updated the scheduler in Windows 11, you know, 22H2,
1:06:26SPEAKERand maybe that's a side effect,
1:06:28SPEAKERbecause you remember when Ryzen 1000 came out,
1:06:31SPEAKERthere were weird performance issues with the original 1800s,
1:06:34SPEAKERyou know, all the 1800x and down.
1:06:37SPEAKERAnd a lot of people, it feels like it really came down
1:06:42SPEAKERto the Windows scheduler of Windows 10 at the time.
1:06:45SPEAKERAnd it was an ancient version of Windows 10,
1:06:47SPEAKERbut AMD actually publicly came out and disavowed that.
1:06:51SPEAKERThey said it is not Windows' fault.
1:06:53SPEAKERIt is not our, the problem, the performance issues
1:06:56SPEAKERyou are seeing with the CPU are not,
1:06:58SPEAKERis not Microsoft Windows' fault.
1:07:00SPEAKERBut I will say, in this industry, the, whenever,
1:07:05SPEAKERthe one company that is at the top of the food chain,
1:07:07SPEAKERand I mean above Intel and above AMD and NVIDIA is Microsoft.
1:07:11SPEAKERSo it's very much, AMD coming out and saying
1:07:14SPEAKERthat it was not Windows' fault is very much like,
1:07:17SPEAKERI don't know, somebody's shooting you in the face
1:07:19SPEAKERand you apologizing to that person
1:07:21SPEAKERfor shooting you in the face.
1:07:22SPEAKERSo I think it's very similar to that situation.
1:07:24SPEAKERSo that's kind of what happened.
1:07:27SPEAKERNobody got my Dick Cheney reference?
1:07:29SPEAKER(laughing)
1:07:31SPEAKER- Look, just 'cause you say somebody got shot in the face
1:07:32SPEAKERdoesn't mean it's always Dick Cheney, Gordon.
1:07:34SPEAKER- But it usually is.
1:07:35SPEAKER- No, most people don't apologize for it.
1:07:37SPEAKERIt's like, oh man, I shouldn't have stepped out.
1:07:39SPEAKERBut we don't know, maybe they're liquored up,
1:07:40SPEAKERbut I'm just saying, you know,
1:07:42SPEAKERthere was an unusual circumstance.
1:07:44SPEAKERIt was like, oh man, I'm sorry.
1:07:45SPEAKERI thought there was a bird behind you, but you know.
1:07:48SPEAKERI'm just saying that's what happens.
1:07:49SPEAKER- We all have to learn important lessons.
1:07:50SPEAKER- Nobody will ever criticize Microsoft.
1:07:53SPEAKERSo that's just the way it is.
1:07:55SPEAKERNo hardware vendors will.
1:07:57SPEAKER- Brad, how are you feeling?
1:07:58SPEAKERYou got anything else?
1:07:59SPEAKER- Look, I could sit here and talk about undervolting all day
1:08:01SPEAKERI've been, I have increasingly a believer
1:08:04SPEAKERthat undervolting is the new overclocking.
1:08:06SPEAKER- Oh my God.
1:08:07SPEAKER- I mean, look, AMD built it right into the BIOS this time.
1:08:09SPEAKERWhere did the eco mode come from, right?
1:08:11SPEAKER- Well, it's funny because I mean,
1:08:12SPEAKERI have heated discussions with my video producer, Adam,
1:08:16SPEAKERwho he's really big into undervolting.
1:08:19SPEAKERAnd I, you know, sadly, I wanna hear Will's perspective
1:08:23SPEAKER'cause he's an old timer too.
1:08:25SPEAKERBut so like undervolting is like,
1:08:27SPEAKEReverybody starts screwing that undervolting now.
1:08:29SPEAKERBut to me, like undervolting is like a hypermiler.
1:08:34SPEAKERIt's like this, the sadness of an enthusiast,
1:08:37SPEAKERlike a real, like, I love my PC.
1:08:39SPEAKERI'm gonna, I love it so much, I'm gonna,
1:08:43SPEAKERbut they're like, it's like hypermiling.
1:08:44SPEAKERAnd I don't know if people know what hypermiling is.
1:08:46SPEAKER- Hypermiling is the thing Wired made up like 15 years ago.
1:08:49SPEAKERI don't even know if that was real, was it?
1:08:50SPEAKER- What are the, I'll tell you what it is,
1:08:52SPEAKERis those A holes in the freeway
1:08:54SPEAKERdriving 47.8 miles an hour in their Prius.
1:08:57SPEAKERYou know why?
1:08:58SPEAKER'Cause you're trying to get the maximum amount of miles,
1:09:00SPEAKERbut you're like, get out of my way with your Prius.
1:09:03SPEAKERThose are the, and they're like,
1:09:04SPEAKERoh, I don't wanna, I'm gonna go down this hill.
1:09:07SPEAKERI don't wanna get on the gas.
1:09:08SPEAKERSo okay, here are my two reasons for undervolting my 3080.
1:09:12SPEAKERNumber one, I had the power supply issue.
1:09:13SPEAKERIt was crashing the machine from the transient spikes.
1:09:16SPEAKERNumber two, started working from home full time
1:09:19SPEAKERand got a load of my power bill
1:09:20SPEAKERafter running my PC for 13 hours a day.
1:09:24SPEAKER- Yeah, no, I'm not saying it's invalid.
1:09:26SPEAKERI'm just saying it's kinda like to me,
1:09:28SPEAKERlike the days of overclocking, like the days of like,
1:09:31SPEAKERoh my God, I got this Intel CPU, sell around 300A.
1:09:35SPEAKERI paid $180 or $150 for it.
1:09:38SPEAKERAnd I overclocked it to 450 megahertz for free.
1:09:41SPEAKERAnd it runs there all day forever.
1:09:43SPEAKERLike that's like, oh my God,
1:09:44SPEAKERthat's just kind of free awesome.
1:09:45SPEAKERBut now it's like, we've resorted to just simply now
1:09:48SPEAKERlike getting the maximum amount of the,
1:09:51SPEAKERof the maximum performance at the lowest amount of power,
1:09:53SPEAKERwhich I respect, but I just kind of think it's like,
1:09:56SPEAKERit's just a little sad from the days
1:09:59SPEAKERlike when you used to jump in your V8
1:10:00SPEAKERand you'd go down the freeway and like, oh my God,
1:10:02SPEAKERsecondaries open up.
1:10:03SPEAKERI got like 12 miles of the gallon.
1:10:05SPEAKERIt's like, awesome.
1:10:06SPEAKER- Undervolting is definitely the thing that people
1:10:09SPEAKERwho overclocked in their youth and then got old moved to.
1:10:12SPEAKERIt's like, I'm too old for overclocking now,
1:10:15SPEAKERbut here's something else I can tweak.
1:10:17SPEAKER- No, I agree.
1:10:18SPEAKER- Yeah, for me, like I'm curious, right?
1:10:21SPEAKERLike if there's really, like I play competitive games,
1:10:24SPEAKERlike I play, I mean, you're gonna mock me now, Gordon,
1:10:26SPEAKERbut I've been playing Fortnite and like frames,
1:10:28SPEAKEReven in Fortnite frames matter, right?
1:10:30SPEAKERLike I have this stupid 360 Hertz monitor
1:10:33SPEAKERand like the difference between 120 frames per second
1:10:38SPEAKERand 240 frames a second is how quickly
1:10:39SPEAKERI land flick shots, right?
1:10:41SPEAKERLike I hit them much better when the frame rate is higher.
1:10:44SPEAKERSo if I can crank down the amount of heat
1:10:46SPEAKERthat comes out of that computer,
1:10:47SPEAKERlike I literally, I thought about rearranging my office
1:10:50SPEAKERso I could just cut a hole in the wall
1:10:51SPEAKERand pipe the heat outside,
1:10:55SPEAKER'cause it gets toasty in here.
1:10:58SPEAKERAnd if I can get equivalent performance at like,
1:11:02SPEAKERwithout making the room a sauna, I'm kinda into it.
1:11:06SPEAKER- No, I get it, I get it.
1:11:08SPEAKER- Yeah, that's where I like,
1:11:09SPEAKERI'm granted 38 as a two-year-old card now,
1:11:11SPEAKERbut I went from, it was settling around 320,
1:11:16SPEAKER330 watts playing games.
1:11:18SPEAKERI got it down to about 250, 260
1:11:20SPEAKERwith like basically no change in performance.
1:11:22SPEAKER- My stupid computer will use like,
1:11:25SPEAKERit was just idols at like 200 watts.
1:11:27SPEAKERSo it's just kinda like, I don't know.
1:11:29SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:11:30SPEAKER- But like, you know, it seems like,
1:11:32SPEAKERI mean, Ryzen 7000 like definitely
1:11:34SPEAKERhas the performance per watt crown, correct?
1:11:36SPEAKERLike I see people saying like,
1:11:37SPEAKER"Oh, you use Eco mode, drop it to 105 watts."
1:11:39SPEAKERAnd it's still significantly faster than the 5000s.
1:11:44SPEAKER- Over 5000, yeah, I would say.
1:11:45SPEAKERI think it comes down to, and the thing is about 13th Gen,
1:11:48SPEAKERyou can really tune it nicely too.
1:11:50SPEAKERI mean, I think Debauer came out of the video.
1:11:52SPEAKERHe was, he's a famous German overclocker,
1:11:54SPEAKERbut he is very impressed by a tuned 13th Gen
1:11:58SPEAKERfor power efficiency and performance too.
1:12:02SPEAKERSo I don't really know what the answer is.
1:12:03SPEAKERI did do a little bit of testing around it
1:12:05SPEAKERand they're somewhat comparable.
1:12:08SPEAKERI think it probably comes down to how you tune it,
1:12:10SPEAKERbut then, you know, I think it still comes down
1:12:11SPEAKERto also what you're using the computer for.
1:12:14SPEAKERSo, but no, I, again, I'm just talking a little shit,
1:12:16SPEAKERjust saying that the sad days of overclocking of like,
1:12:20SPEAKERyou know, you look back like some, you know,
1:12:22SPEAKERyou're looking at some '72 charger
1:12:26SPEAKERand what we turned into now is like, oh my God, you know what?
1:12:30SPEAKER- Look, man, you can put a two barrel carb on that thing,
1:12:32SPEAKERget an extra five miles a gallon out of it.
1:12:33SPEAKER- But now it's like, I've hacked my Prius to add it.
1:12:36SPEAKERYou know, they didn't allow us to plug it in,
1:12:37SPEAKERbut I added the plug in like, oh, that's so awesome, right?
1:12:40SPEAKERBut it's just a little different.
1:12:41SPEAKER- Gordon, I'm gonna tell you,
1:12:42SPEAKERwhen I drove the Bolt down from Truckee
1:12:44SPEAKERand the kilowatts per mile, sorry,
1:12:48SPEAKERthe miles per kilowatt hour was 55 coming down the hill
1:12:51SPEAKERand it's usually like three.
1:12:53SPEAKERI was pretty excited, like that was fun.
1:12:55SPEAKERThat was stupid, but it's pretty good.
1:12:57SPEAKER- I know, it's just a different,
1:12:59SPEAKERit's a different kind of fun that is-
1:13:01SPEAKER- It's old guy fun.
1:13:04SPEAKER- Is that so what you basically made power
1:13:06SPEAKERall the way down then did it?
1:13:07SPEAKER- Yeah, we made power.
1:13:08SPEAKERSo, but I mean, the thing about, the thing, the place,
1:13:11SPEAKERI mean, you, I mean, maybe you don't remember,
1:13:13SPEAKERbut like I was the person who put water cooling in my PC
1:13:16SPEAKERat Maximum PC because I wanted it to be quiet
1:13:18SPEAKERand not hear it, you know, I didn't want to hear,
1:13:22SPEAKERI didn't want to hear the leaf blower of the 5800
1:13:24SPEAKERwhen I fired up Doom 3 or whatever the game was that year.
1:13:29SPEAKERAnd, you know, I've, as I've become more reliant
1:13:34SPEAKERon my PC as like a thing that I use for work
1:13:38SPEAKERand not just, you know, dinking around with games,
1:13:42SPEAKERit's become much more about reliability
1:13:44SPEAKERand noise than any, like those are the two main things
1:13:47SPEAKERfor me at this point is I want it to be consistently
1:13:50SPEAKERreliable and I need to be able to sit here
1:13:52SPEAKERwith a big stupid microphone and have the computer
1:13:55SPEAKERgoing full speed and not have it make a lot of noise
1:13:57SPEAKERon whatever I'm working on, so.
1:13:59SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:14:01SPEAKER- Anyway, it's always, Gordon, it's always wonderful
1:14:03SPEAKERto have you here, thank you so much for taking the time
1:14:05SPEAKERto come by and kind of give us the rundown
1:14:08SPEAKERon the current run of CPUs.
1:14:10SPEAKERI think everything's up on the website at pcworld.com
1:14:14SPEAKERthat we talked about, like your AMD and Intel writeups
1:14:17SPEAKERare both there, you've got videos for both, I believe.
1:14:20SPEAKER- Yep, PCworld's YouTube channel.
1:14:23SPEAKER- And you're on the full nerd weekly these days?
1:14:27SPEAKER- Yeah, pretty much, I think, well, I wouldn't say reliably,
1:14:29SPEAKERusually Tuesdays, sometimes Wednesdays,
1:14:32SPEAKERsometimes Thursdays.
1:14:34SPEAKER- Found wherever fine podcasts can be found.
1:14:40SPEAKERThank you, and Twitter, Fake Gordon Mong?
1:14:43SPEAKER- Yeah, it still actually says fake,
1:14:46SPEAKERthat's still a leftover from the future days,
1:14:48SPEAKERFake Gordon Mong, so. - Yeah, there we go.
1:14:52SPEAKERGordon, thank you so much for coming by,
1:14:53SPEAKERit's always a pleasure to see you.
1:14:55SPEAKER- Thanks for having me.
1:14:57SPEAKER- As always, Brad, we've reached the time of the show
1:14:59SPEAKERwhere we thank our patrons.
1:15:00SPEAKER- We have, thank you, patrons.
1:15:02SPEAKER- Thank you, patrons.
1:15:03SPEAKERIf you would like to find out how you can support
1:15:07SPEAKERBrad and Will Make a Tech Pod,
1:15:08SPEAKERwhich is a 100% listener-supporting show,
1:15:10SPEAKERyou can go to the website patreon.com/techpod,
1:15:14SPEAKERand for as little as $2 a month,
1:15:16SPEAKERyou can contribute two to the show
1:15:18SPEAKERand gain access to the fabulous Tech Pod Discord,
1:15:19SPEAKERwhich is full of beautiful nerds
1:15:21SPEAKERwho talk about wonderful things all the time.
1:15:24SPEAKER- Do you know what there's been a lot of chatter on there
1:15:26SPEAKERabout recently is new CPUs.
1:15:29SPEAKER- Oh, I thought it was gonna be undervolting.
1:15:30SPEAKER- Oh. - Oh, that's coming up too.
1:15:32SPEAKERThere's some undervolting talk,
1:15:34SPEAKERwe talked a lot about video cards last week.
1:15:37SPEAKER- So I didn't bring it up with Gordon,
1:15:38SPEAKERbut I think the concept of undervolting
1:15:42SPEAKERis about to hit the mainstream, basically.
1:15:43SPEAKERLike I'm starting to see like some tweets
1:15:45SPEAKERfloating around about the 40, 90 from like not people
1:15:48SPEAKERwho are just in tech press or tech YouTubers.
1:15:50SPEAKER- I don't know about the mainstream.
1:15:52SPEAKER- Well, maybe not mainstream,
1:15:53SPEAKERbut people who don't review hardware
1:15:54SPEAKERfor a living is what I mean.
1:15:55SPEAKERLike I feel like non-PC hardware obsessive type people
1:15:59SPEAKERare now starting to see like, oh, what do you mean?
1:16:01SPEAKERI could run 60% of the electricity
1:16:04SPEAKERfor 90% of the performance.
1:16:06SPEAKERLike that sounds good to me.
1:16:06SPEAKERLike I wonder if that's gonna actually start catching on.
1:16:09SPEAKER- I think, I mean, I feel like the people
1:16:11SPEAKERwho are in the market for the high-end hardware
1:16:14SPEAKERand the people who care about the amount of power
1:16:17SPEAKERtheir computers are using is like there's a very little
1:16:20SPEAKERoverlap on that Venn diagram.
1:16:22SPEAKERBut I think, I don't think you're wrong.
1:16:23SPEAKER- That's fair, that's fair.
1:16:24SPEAKERI don't listen, a lot of this is colored
1:16:26SPEAKERby how much warmer it is in my home office
1:16:28SPEAKERthan the rest of the apartment.
1:16:30SPEAKER- The thing, honestly, the thing I want
1:16:32SPEAKERis for the manufacturers to look at this and think,
1:16:34SPEAKERoh, this is a trend, we should be supporting this.
1:16:38SPEAKER'Cause like realistically, this is the default
1:16:40SPEAKERway stuff should ship.
1:16:41SPEAKERAnd then if you wanna juice it the other way,
1:16:43SPEAKERthen you should have that option.
1:16:44SPEAKER- That you're exactly right.
1:16:45SPEAKERAnd I think he was right to lay blame
1:16:47SPEAKERon the motherboard makers because like I did a ton
1:16:49SPEAKERof research on this ultra lake chip I got for my NAS
1:16:52SPEAKERand like Intel sets pretty reasonable defaults
1:16:55SPEAKERon the PL1, PL2 and TAO values.
1:16:57SPEAKERThe TAO is the amount of time before it goes
1:17:00SPEAKERfrom the high gear to the low gear.
1:17:02SPEAKERBut then like he said, the motherboard makers
1:17:04SPEAKERjust take all those limiters off because they want
1:17:06SPEAKERto look the fastest on paper and it sucks.
1:17:09SPEAKERAnyway, the tech pod discord is a great place
1:17:12SPEAKERfull of highly technical people who can.
1:17:14SPEAKERTalk to you about this and many other topics.
1:17:16SPEAKER- And every week we like to thank our executive producer
1:17:19SPEAKERto your patrons, including Paddle Creek Games,
1:17:21SPEAKERMakers of Fractured Veil, Andrew Slosky,
1:17:24SPEAKER#bunnyslimes, Reluctant Meme Participant Wedge,
1:17:30SPEAKERJoel Krauska, Twinkle Twinky and James Kamik.
1:17:32SPEAKERThank you all so, so much.
1:17:33SPEAKERWe really appreciate your support.
1:17:35SPEAKER- Yes, we do, thank you.
1:17:36SPEAKER- And on that note, we will be back next week
1:17:42SPEAKERwith another episode of the tech pod.
1:17:44SPEAKERWe are unclear, it's up in the air right now.
1:17:46SPEAKERIt's probably a Q&A episode.
1:17:48SPEAKERSo if you would like to do some cues
1:17:49SPEAKERand have us turn them into A's,
1:17:51SPEAKERyou can do that by joining the question seeking answers
1:17:54SPEAKERchannel on the discord and posting your comment
1:17:57SPEAKERor question into the void there.
1:17:59SPEAKEROr you can email them to techpod@content.town.
1:18:02SPEAKERThat's techpod@content.town.
1:18:04SPEAKERWe would love to have feedback, questions, comments,
1:18:06SPEAKERsocial statements, whatever you feel like you need
1:18:08SPEAKERto share with us, please put it in one of those two
1:18:10SPEAKERrespective places and we will address it next week.
1:18:13SPEAKERWe might just do an Android episode instead of next week.
1:18:16SPEAKER- We might have a subject matter expert
1:18:18SPEAKERso we can finally do a real Android episode.
1:18:20SPEAKER- Yeah, it turns out it's hard.
1:18:22SPEAKERLike in the old days before the phones were so integrated,
1:18:25SPEAKERit was hard, it was easy to switch back and forth
1:18:27SPEAKERbetween different phones.
1:18:29SPEAKERAnd now the, like the, it's a significant challenge
1:18:34SPEAKERto change from Android to iOS and back on a regular basis
1:18:38SPEAKERand maintain a functional phone life.
1:18:41SPEAKER- Yeah, when I mentioned a few months ago,
1:18:43SPEAKERI got this new phone and I was like, oh, eSIM,
1:18:45SPEAKERnow I don't have to worry about a little thing.
1:18:46SPEAKERI can just like go on the website and transfer service.
1:18:48SPEAKERAnd then later I was like, oh, wait,
1:18:50SPEAKERnow I don't have a SIM, I could just stick in another phone
1:18:53SPEAKERwhen I feel like it.
1:18:54SPEAKER- Here's the thing, when you, depending on your carrier,
1:18:56SPEAKERwhen you would take a SIM and stick in another phone,
1:18:58SPEAKERsometimes they would just charge you $30
1:19:00SPEAKER'cause it's activating a new device on their network.
1:19:01SPEAKER- Cool.
1:19:02SPEAKER- And you probably wouldn't notice
1:19:03SPEAKER'cause who looks at their phone bill?
1:19:05SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:19:06SPEAKER- Anyway, but we will be back next week with another episode
1:19:08SPEAKERof the TechPod.
1:19:09SPEAKERThanks again to Gordon for coming by.
1:19:10SPEAKERIt was always lovely to visit with Gordon
1:19:13SPEAKERand we will see everybody next week.
1:19:15SPEAKERBye.
1:19:16SPEAKER(upbeat music)