147: Why Thread Matters

00:00SPEAKER- How long would you say you stream at a stretch every night?

00:03SPEAKER- Four hours max.

00:05SPEAKER- Four hours, dang.

00:06SPEAKERSo what is your policy when nature calls?

00:10SPEAKER- I just have a catheter.

00:11SPEAKER(laughing)

00:14SPEAKER- Oh boy, that has come up around here too.

00:16SPEAKERMostly jokingly, but also I can totally get one if desired.

00:20SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't think that's a good, I'm joking clearly.

00:24SPEAKERI just want to make that clear.

00:25SPEAKER- Yes, well, hey look, I assumed you were joking.

00:29SPEAKERI would say there was about a 2% chance you were not.

00:33SPEAKER- So I usually do,

00:37SPEAKERusually I get up, let's say every hour, hour and a half,

00:42SPEAKERmaybe for a refill of the beverage

00:45SPEAKERand a draining of, a supply and demand situation.

00:49SPEAKERDrain the bladder, fill the tum-tum.

00:52SPEAKER- Liquid in, liquid out.

00:53SPEAKER- Yeah, exactly.

00:55SPEAKERYeah, and then other more solid waste needs

00:59SPEAKERI try to fill either before or after.

01:01SPEAKER- Okay, well, we didn't need to get into that.

01:02SPEAKER- Well, I mean, you asked.

01:04SPEAKERI try not to take a dumping break

01:05SPEAKERduring the middle of the stream is what I'm saying.

01:07SPEAKER- Good Lord, man.

01:08SPEAKER- Yeah, you're welcome, America.

01:10SPEAKER- Yeah, I can't.

01:11SPEAKERI try to drink a lot more water than I used to these days

01:13SPEAKERand I generally cannot make it through a two-hour stream

01:15SPEAKERwithout having to get up.

01:17SPEAKER- Yeah, the bladder, it turns out,

01:18SPEAKERis less elastic now than it used to be.

01:20SPEAKERIt's unfortunate.

01:21SPEAKER- It's not getting into that aspect,

01:23SPEAKERbut I didn't even consider that.

01:24SPEAKERBut yeah, I keep a water thing on the table

01:29SPEAKERso I can top off water if I need to,

01:30SPEAKERif I need to do that when there's not an opportune moment.

01:33SPEAKER- Look at the stream level.

01:34SPEAKERDo you have like a be right back?

01:36SPEAKER- Yeah, I do have a be right back,

01:38SPEAKERbut also since I usually play games with other people,

01:40SPEAKERif I'm playing like Fortnite or PUBG or something,

01:43SPEAKERand I'm dead, then that's a good opportunity

01:45SPEAKERfor me to mute my mic and get up

01:47SPEAKERand walk into the other room and refresh my beverage

01:50SPEAKERand maybe have a snack and come back.

01:53SPEAKER- That's right, let them carry it.

01:54SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, look, the benefit of having other people

01:56SPEAKERon the show is that you can have them carry,

01:58SPEAKERthey can fill when you need to take five minutes, so.

02:01SPEAKER- It is true.

02:02SPEAKERI really, that window of kind of work from home

02:04SPEAKERduring the pandemic before we just busted out of there,

02:07SPEAKERI had a good time coming up with stay tuned type stuff.

02:10SPEAKERLike Abby did a really nice,

02:11SPEAKERlike people have probably seen it a hundred times,

02:13SPEAKERlike a nice like old school TV static test pattern

02:17SPEAKERstay tuned kind of thing that we were using.

02:19SPEAKERAnd I got way into pumping my giant library

02:23SPEAKERof video game music out to the stream over top of that

02:25SPEAKERand just all kinds of fun stuff.

02:26SPEAKER- Love that.

02:27SPEAKER- I've been meaning to set up that weather channel simulator

02:31SPEAKERfor a very long time.

02:32SPEAKER- Wait, what's the weather channel simulator?

02:33SPEAKER- Oh my God, do you not know about that?

02:34SPEAKER- No, I was gonna say, so I've been watching For All Mankind

02:37SPEAKERthanks mainly to recommendations from people in the Discord.

02:40SPEAKER- Yeah, I heard that's gotten really good.

02:41SPEAKER- It's the second season, I'm in the second season now

02:43SPEAKERand it's like, it's gotten a little soapy,

02:45SPEAKERpretty good though.

02:46SPEAKERLike they had the sea dragon in there, which I appreciate.

02:48SPEAKERAnd there's a moment in the second season

02:51SPEAKERwhen one of the characters is watching TV

02:52SPEAKERand they get to the like the end of day broadcast

02:55SPEAKERthat you used to have, like where they play

02:56SPEAKERthe American Anthem and you see the flag

02:58SPEAKERand then it cuts to a test pattern.

02:59SPEAKERAnd I was just like, oh man, I haven't seen one of those.

03:03SPEAKERI haven't seen, like nobody goes off the air anymore.

03:06SPEAKERSo you don't ever see the end of day broadcast anymore.

03:09SPEAKER- That's sad.

03:10SPEAKER- Yeah.

03:11SPEAKER- There's something kind of romantic about that.

03:13SPEAKER- Well, and it also seems like maybe it was better

03:15SPEAKERwhen we didn't have 24 hours of news to fill with nonsense.

03:19SPEAKERI don't know.

03:20SPEAKER- I was just reading right up about the tidbit,

03:22SPEAKERthat little screen you talked about last week.

03:24SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a problem in search of a solution

03:27SPEAKERor a solution in search of a problem.

03:28SPEAKER- Well, that was the whole idea of that screen though.

03:30SPEAKERThe pitch was like, hey, if you can get this information

03:32SPEAKERpassively just around you, then that's the last reason

03:36SPEAKERto get your phone out and get sucked into looking

03:37SPEAKERat Twitter and stuff.

03:39SPEAKER- Yeah, like for me, it was like, hey, I want an on air

03:45SPEAKERslash in a meeting sign that I can put outside my door,

03:47SPEAKERI think.

03:48SPEAKERAnyway, so what's the weather simulator thing,

03:52SPEAKERthe weather channel simulator?

03:53SPEAKER- TaigaNet.com is the T-A-I-G-A, TaigaNet.com.

03:59SPEAKERI guess the WS-4000 was the like machine or system

04:02SPEAKERthat the weather channel used for all of its stuff

04:05SPEAKERto do the broadcast with, you know,

04:06SPEAKERto set up the graphics and everything.

04:07SPEAKER- Wow.

04:08SPEAKER- Somebody has written a simulator that absolutely

04:11SPEAKERa hundred percent just simulates that thing.

04:13SPEAKER- This is incredible.

04:14SPEAKER- Dude, I know I have been meaning to get this going

04:16SPEAKERand just like put it on a stream.

04:18SPEAKER- I don't like that it's a self-signed thing.

04:21SPEAKERMan, I might just do this and leave it running all the time.

04:23SPEAKERHoly shit.

04:24SPEAKER- I don't get my idea, goddammit.

04:25SPEAKER- Oh, sorry.

04:26SPEAKERI thought you were gonna do is like a be right back page

04:28SPEAKERor something.

04:29SPEAKER- If I didn't want people to take my idea,

04:30SPEAKERI probably shouldn't talk about it in a podcast.

04:32SPEAKER- I mean, it's a good idea.

04:34SPEAKERLocal weather all the time, 24/7.

04:37SPEAKERI mean, look, you could just have a whole network

04:38SPEAKERof Twitch channels.

04:39SPEAKERIt's like Raleigh Durham weather.

04:40SPEAKERYou can have a Richmond, Virginia weather.

04:42SPEAKERYou could have a San Francisco, California weather.

04:44SPEAKERThis is pretty rad.

04:45SPEAKER- I think it's safe to say it's time

04:46SPEAKERfor your local tech pod on the eights.

04:49SPEAKER(upbeat music)

05:12SPEAKER(upbeat music)

05:17SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.

05:19SPEAKERI'm Will.

05:20SPEAKER- I'm Brad.

05:21SPEAKERHello.

05:21SPEAKER- Hello.

05:22SPEAKER- Hi.

05:23SPEAKER- Today, hey, we're back to basics this week.

05:25SPEAKER- I cannot believe it.

05:26SPEAKERI wasn't sure if we should actually call attention to it

05:29SPEAKERor not, but you just did.

05:30SPEAKERSo let's talk about it.

05:30SPEAKERWe're doing a topic episode.

05:32SPEAKER- Well, okay.

05:33SPEAKERSo we did a lot of topic episodes early

05:35SPEAKERand it turns out we mined kind of the easy ones out.

05:39SPEAKER- I wouldn't say they're all easy, but you know,

05:41SPEAKERthe obvious ones, like the easy to think of ones, let's say.

05:44SPEAKER- Yeah, well, and the ones that can also fill an hour

05:47SPEAKERis the other thing.

05:48SPEAKER'Cause like there's a lot of stuff

05:49SPEAKERthat we could do a deep dive episode on

05:50SPEAKERthat would be like the deep dive,

05:52SPEAKERit turns out is like 30, 25 minutes, right?

05:56SPEAKERAnd then we have another 15 minutes to kill,

05:58SPEAKERwhich is not ideal.

06:01SPEAKERBut there's a new standard coming this fall.

06:03SPEAKER- Oh, another standard you say.

06:05SPEAKER- I mean, look, I referenced the XKCD

06:08SPEAKERwhen we were talking about this episode.

06:10SPEAKERIt's called the standards.

06:11SPEAKERIt is XKCD number 927, if you care to look it up.

06:15SPEAKER- That one's my favorite.

06:16SPEAKERLike everybody references the Jenga Tower one.

06:18SPEAKER- The Jenga Tower one is my favorite, but yes.

06:20SPEAKER- The standards one is my favorite.

06:22SPEAKER- Like if we had, I think there are like five,

06:25SPEAKERprobably XKCDs that are the genesis of this podcast

06:28SPEAKERand the FOSS pod combined.

06:30SPEAKERThis is definitely one of them.

06:31SPEAKER- Ironically, those are the only ones I even know.

06:33SPEAKERLike I have never read XKCD.

06:34SPEAKERI only know those like famous ones

06:36SPEAKERthat always make the rounds.

06:37SPEAKERBut a couple of them are pretty spot on.

06:41SPEAKER- Often regular.

06:42SPEAKERAnyway, so.

06:44SPEAKER- Can I, should I just like read this comic for people

06:47SPEAKER'cause this is not exactly a video podcast.

06:49SPEAKER- Yeah, it's titled How Standards Proliferate.

06:51SPEAKER- It's all texts.

06:52SPEAKERThere's like two stick figures in it.

06:53SPEAKER- That's always the, that's XKCD.

06:55SPEAKERThat's the shtick.

06:57SPEAKER- Yes, how standards proliferate, CAC chargers,

07:00SPEAKERcharacter encodings, instant messaging, et cetera.

07:02SPEAKERSituation, there are 14 competing standards.

07:06SPEAKERAnd the two stick figures come in.

07:07SPEAKER14, ridiculous.

07:08SPEAKERWe need to develop one universal standard

07:09SPEAKERthat covers everyone's use cases.

07:11SPEAKERYeah, says the other stick figure.

07:13SPEAKERSoon, situation, there are 15 competing standards.

07:17SPEAKER- So that is precisely when somebody was like,

07:19SPEAKERhey, Google and Apple and Amazon

07:21SPEAKERand a bunch of other companies are working together

07:23SPEAKERto produce a new internet of shit,

07:27SPEAKERhome control device standard.

07:31SPEAKERHere, I thought, oh, wow, okay.

07:34SPEAKERThis is gonna be great.

07:36SPEAKERAnother thing we have to integrate

07:37SPEAKERwith our existing configurations.

07:39SPEAKER- Yes, and that standard is?

07:42SPEAKER- It's called Matter, is the application layer

07:45SPEAKERand Thread is the kind of network layer

07:48SPEAKERor that one of the network layers that talks to Matter.

07:51SPEAKER- Yeah, so I knew about Matter.

07:53SPEAKERI did not know as much about Thread

07:54SPEAKERand Thread seems awesome.

07:55SPEAKERAlso, I should mention, I think this episode

07:57SPEAKERprobably grew out of our FOSPOD episode with-

08:00SPEAKER- Paul Schatzen.

08:01SPEAKER- Paul Schatzen from Home Assistant.

08:03SPEAKER- Yes, exactly.

08:04SPEAKER- He talked about Matter a good bit in that episode,

08:06SPEAKERbut also a ton of other stuff.

08:07SPEAKERThat was a very good episode, if I do say so myself.

08:10SPEAKER- Yeah, it was one of our highest engagement episodes

08:12SPEAKERwhen I looked at analytics the other day.

08:14SPEAKER- Hey, it turns out a lot of people use Home Assistant.

08:15SPEAKERI'll link that episode in the show notes here,

08:18SPEAKERbut he is kind of the one who really, at least for me,

08:21SPEAKERimpressed on me the importance of this coming standard.

08:24SPEAKER- Yeah, so to preface, I guess,

08:29SPEAKERthere are a bunch of different standards

08:32SPEAKERthat do the stuff that this does right now.

08:35SPEAKERZigbee, Z-Wave, there's a bunch of wifi-connected devices.

08:38SPEAKERThere's even some Bluetooth stuff

08:39SPEAKERthat you can kind of use with your phone,

08:41SPEAKERbut maybe doesn't connect with a central control system

08:45SPEAKERin your house.

08:48SPEAKERAnd right now, if you make, say, a bulb or a switch

08:52SPEAKERor something like that, the vendor has to choose

08:54SPEAKERwhich of the ones they're gonna support out of the box.

08:57SPEAKERAnd often, they'll have a standards.

09:00SPEAKERThey'll say, "Hey, we work with Alexa.

09:02SPEAKER"We work with Google, or we work with HomeKit,"

09:04SPEAKERwhich is Apple's standard, or SmartThings,

09:06SPEAKERwhich is the other big one.

09:07SPEAKERBut then, it turns out that they're actually

09:09SPEAKERjust a Zigbee device or a wifi device

09:11SPEAKERthat will work with everything.

09:13SPEAKERThey just only are certifying for one or two

09:16SPEAKERbecause there's cost and support overhead

09:18SPEAKERinvolved with those things.

09:19SPEAKER- Yeah, can we make a distinction here?

09:21SPEAKERAnd I wanna make sure I've got this straight

09:23SPEAKERas much as laying it out for the audience.

09:25SPEAKERSo, like, wifi, Zigbee, Z-Wave,

09:28SPEAKERare all low-level broadcast standards, right?

09:30SPEAKER- They're networks.

09:31SPEAKERThose relate to the physical signal

09:33SPEAKERgoing between devices, correct?

09:35SPEAKER- Yeah, they are direct.

09:36SPEAKERSo, Thread, Wifi, Ethernet, Zigbee, and Z-Wave.

09:41SPEAKERZigbee and Z-Wave are 2.4 gigahertz.

09:43SPEAKERI believe both of those, I'm not sure about that.

09:46SPEAKERSpecs, Z-Wave is significantly older.

09:49SPEAKERZigbee is a newer, it's not a direct descendant of Z-Wave,

09:55SPEAKERbut it is designed to compete and be more modern.

09:58SPEAKERAnd they're mesh networks, Zigbee and Z-Wave are mesh networks.

10:01SPEAKERWifi is a point-to-point network,

10:03SPEAKERso you have a central hub, a wifi access point.

10:06SPEAKERAll devices connect to that network.

10:08SPEAKERWith a mesh network, what that means is that

10:11SPEAKERon the network, there are usually devices

10:14SPEAKERthat are connected to power

10:15SPEAKERthat can pass data along from others,

10:18SPEAKERand then the devices that are battery-based,

10:21SPEAKERlike motion sensors and window and door sensors,

10:25SPEAKERstuff like that, maybe even a water,

10:28SPEAKERlike a flood sensor, will be battery-powered,

10:32SPEAKERand you'll connect to those.

10:34SPEAKERThey don't route between different networks,

10:37SPEAKERdifferent devices, but they'll connect

10:39SPEAKERto one connected domains power device,

10:42SPEAKERand then that device will pass on its packets for them.

10:44SPEAKER- Right, right.

10:45SPEAKER- The idea is that with a mesh network,

10:47SPEAKERthe more devices you add to the network,

10:49SPEAKERthe stronger the network is as a whole

10:51SPEAKERand the more resilient it is.

10:52SPEAKERIt doesn't always work that way in practice.

10:54SPEAKER- You don't say.

10:56SPEAKER- Yeah, weird.

10:56SPEAKER- But I did wanna make that distinction early on,

10:58SPEAKERbecause by way of comparison,

10:59SPEAKERI think that makes it easier to understand

11:01SPEAKERwhere thread and matter exist in the stack,

11:03SPEAKERso I think you just said this,

11:04SPEAKERbut thread is on the same level as Wi-Fi

11:07SPEAKERor Ethernet or Zigbee.

11:09SPEAKER- Yeah, and matter is,

11:11SPEAKERso then the one layer up on the application layer,

11:14SPEAKERtypically you have a hub box made by Google,

11:20SPEAKERwhich is, I think their thing is called,

11:23SPEAKERoh, I didn't even write it down.

11:24SPEAKERIt has a different name, Weave, I think is what it's called.

11:27SPEAKER- Interesting, is that not just Google Home?

11:29SPEAKERI thought.

11:30SPEAKER- So Google Home is the application

11:32SPEAKERthey use to control those things.

11:34SPEAKERWeave is their kind of application protocol layer.

11:37SPEAKER- Okay, so Weave is analogous to Alexa or Apple Home.

11:41SPEAKER- Is analogous to HomeKit.

11:43SPEAKER- HomeKit, sorry, HomeKit is at this level

11:45SPEAKERand Apple Home is the interface on top of that.

11:47SPEAKER- Or the smart things or your home assistant hub

11:50SPEAKERis kind of at the similar place.

11:52SPEAKER- Right, so matter is essentially

11:54SPEAKERa vendor agnostic equivalent of HomeKit.

11:58SPEAKER- Protocol.

11:58SPEAKER- HomeKit or yes, or.

12:00SPEAKER- That lives on top of IPv6

12:01SPEAKERis the other important part of this.

12:03SPEAKER- This is a lot.

12:04SPEAKER- So in the current scheme,

12:09SPEAKERyou have HomeKit and all these different

12:13SPEAKERvendor specific application layers

12:17SPEAKERthat you can maybe glue together

12:18SPEAKERwith something like home assistant

12:20SPEAKERor there's other things that do the same thing.

12:22SPEAKERSo like home assistant in my network,

12:25SPEAKERI use as the central repository for all devices.

12:28SPEAKERAll devices come into there

12:29SPEAKERand then it passes out support for those devices

12:32SPEAKERto things like Google Home and Apple HomeKit and Alexa

12:36SPEAKERso that you can talk to your Alexa,

12:38SPEAKERyou can talk to your Google Home

12:39SPEAKERand it will control all of those devices.

12:42SPEAKERBut HomeKit is the central glue that holds it all together.

12:45SPEAKER- Right, so that is literally the only thing

12:47SPEAKERI use home assistant for.

12:48SPEAKERI don't use any advanced scripting functionality or anything.

12:52SPEAKERThe only reason I ended up on home assistant

12:54SPEAKERis because I had Apple HomeKit devices.

12:56SPEAKERI've got like Belkin WeMo stuff.

12:59SPEAKERI've got some TP link Casa stuff.

13:01SPEAKERYou know, it was just, I ended up with different devices.

13:03SPEAKERI've got some iDevices stuff.

13:05SPEAKER- So this is what happens to everybody, right?

13:08SPEAKER- So like, I just wanted one thing

13:09SPEAKERthat could control every device I have.

13:11SPEAKERAnd like, that's the aim of thread and matter

13:13SPEAKERis to not have, I'm gonna keep using home assistant

13:15SPEAKER'cause it does a lot of cool stuff, but.

13:17SPEAKER- Well, this is the aim of matter.

13:18SPEAKERThread is a different thing.

13:20SPEAKERThread is a lower level.

13:21SPEAKERThread is solving a different problem, so.

13:23SPEAKER- Thread is still something that will let

13:25SPEAKERall these different companies, devices talk to each other

13:27SPEAKERon the same network, the same thread network.

13:32SPEAKER- Yeah, let's say, yeah, there.

13:34SPEAKER- As of, we'll get to this later, as of thread 1.3,

13:37SPEAKERall of the authentication will be compatible

13:40SPEAKERbetween different vendors.

13:41SPEAKER- Well, so the interesting thing,

13:42SPEAKERand it took me a while to kind of suss out

13:44SPEAKERwhat is, why thread matters.

13:47SPEAKERLike thread is neat technology.

13:49SPEAKER- Sorry, do you wanna rephrase that?

13:51SPEAKER- Oh God.

13:52SPEAKER- We can't use the word matters anymore.

13:54SPEAKER- Isn't that the name of the title?

13:55SPEAKERI think that's an episode title actually accidentally.

13:59SPEAKEROkay, so why thread is important

14:01SPEAKERand why thread is a valid successor to Zigbee,

14:06SPEAKERI think is the thought for like low power mesh networks.

14:10SPEAKERAnd the interesting thing is that like IPv6 over ethernet,

14:15SPEAKERyou can run multiple applications on your wifi network.

14:19SPEAKERLike, whereas Zigbee and Z-Wave

14:22SPEAKERare basically single application networks.

14:24SPEAKERAnd then you connect to that application

14:26SPEAKERif you wanna do have more advanced functionality

14:28SPEAKERwithin them.

14:29SPEAKERWith thread, you can have Google Weave

14:34SPEAKERand you can have HomeKit and you can have Matter

14:37SPEAKERall running on the same network

14:40SPEAKERusing the IPv6 thread layer,

14:42SPEAKERwhich we'll talk about in a sec.

14:43SPEAKERWe're gonna get into the low level detail here in a moment.

14:45SPEAKERIt's just, we figured have the high level overview

14:49SPEAKERand then we'll kind of drill into the details on thread.

14:50SPEAKERThen we'll drill into the details on Matter

14:52SPEAKERand you guys can suss out the things

14:54SPEAKERthat are interesting to you from there is the thought.

14:58SPEAKERSo most of the devices are vendor specific kind of.

15:03SPEAKERYou can connect other devices to the main,

15:05SPEAKERthey may not actively support that.

15:06SPEAKERThe exception is HomeKit,

15:07SPEAKERwhich is often only works with HomeKit.

15:10SPEAKERSo like there's a bunch of Wemo devices

15:12SPEAKERand stuff like that that you can buy,

15:14SPEAKERwhich is I think Belkin's brand,

15:16SPEAKERthat only connect to HomeKit or only connect to Alexa

15:19SPEAKERor only connect to Google's Weave thing.

15:25SPEAKERHaving, making all of the different devices

15:29SPEAKERconnect to each other requires smart things

15:32SPEAKERor Home Assistant or something like that

15:34SPEAKERthat most normal people aren't probably gonna futz with.

15:37SPEAKERSo what ends up happening in their homes

15:39SPEAKERis they have some things that only work with Google

15:42SPEAKERand they have some things that only work with Apple Home

15:44SPEAKERand they have some things that only work with Alexa

15:46SPEAKERand it's a real bad usability situation

15:49SPEAKERbecause like no normal human is going to think,

15:52SPEAKERoh, okay, if I wanna turn off the lights in my kid's room,

15:54SPEAKERI have to use Alexa

15:55SPEAKERand if I wanna turn off the lights in the living room,

15:57SPEAKERI have to use Google Home

15:58SPEAKERand the doorbell's only on Apple.

16:00SPEAKER- Yeah, it's terrible.

16:02SPEAKERAnd sorry, to make matters worse,

16:04SPEAKERthere's an extra onboarding layer on top of that,

16:07SPEAKERwhich is that regardless of which one of those platforms

16:11SPEAKERyour device runs on,

16:12SPEAKERyou more than likely need to download the manufacturer

16:15SPEAKERspecific app to even onboard it onto your network

16:17SPEAKERin first place and like that often requires you

16:19SPEAKERto make a user account.

16:21SPEAKERSo like, I've also got the TP-Link Kaza app

16:23SPEAKERand the Belk and Wemo app

16:25SPEAKERand I had to make accounts on both of those

16:26SPEAKERjust to get those things on my wifi, it's terrible.

16:29SPEAKER- The worst version of that is that you need to buy a hub

16:32SPEAKERfor the vendor, like Lutron works with their cassette stuff

16:35SPEAKERwhere you have to have a hub

16:36SPEAKER'cause they use a special variant of the 802.11,

16:41SPEAKER802.15.4 or whatever.

16:44SPEAKERLike they're using their own custom radios.

16:46SPEAKERAnyway, the upshot is all of this stuff is designed

16:51SPEAKERto build a network and application protocol layer

16:56SPEAKERthat then your different devices and different services

17:00SPEAKERcan connect to agnostically without having to glue it

17:04SPEAKERall together with a home assistant or something like that.

17:05SPEAKERNow, if you have a home assistant,

17:07SPEAKERyou can still connect it to this

17:09SPEAKERand you'll have a higher level of configurability

17:11SPEAKERand stuff like that with home assistant

17:12SPEAKERjust like you do right now.

17:13SPEAKERBut you don't have to do that to get everything

17:16SPEAKERtalking to each other, which is a massive improvement.

17:18SPEAKER- Yeah, huge, huge.

17:19SPEAKERAlso, I wanna point out real quick,

17:21SPEAKERthis is not just some third party standards body

17:24SPEAKERthat is trying to make this happen.

17:25SPEAKERLike all these companies are part of this effort.

17:28SPEAKERI'm sorry, what is it called?

17:29SPEAKERIt's the Connectivity Standards Alliance.

17:32SPEAKER- Connectivity Standards Alliance,

17:33SPEAKERit is the renamed Zigbee Alliance.

17:37SPEAKERIt uses a lot of the same technology,

17:40SPEAKERunderlying technology as Zigbee,

17:41SPEAKERwhich we'll talk about in a bit.

17:42SPEAKERBut currently, the big names are Apple, Google, Amazon,

17:45SPEAKERHome Assistant, Belkin, Comcast, GE, Ikea, Yale,

17:48SPEAKERSmartThings, LG, and Lutron.

17:50SPEAKERSo it's all of the big players are participating

17:53SPEAKERin some way or another.

17:55SPEAKERHow that connectivity ends up working in reality

18:00SPEAKERand the final matter standard remains to be seen.

18:03SPEAKERThis is theoretically arriving this fall.

18:05SPEAKERIt's been delayed a couple of times

18:06SPEAKERmostly because of pandemic related stuff.

18:08SPEAKER- Yeah, Matter, to be clear, Matter is the thing

18:10SPEAKERthat is slated to arrive this fall.

18:12SPEAKERThere are Thread, I guess we'll get to this later.

18:14SPEAKERIt's a lot of detail.

18:15SPEAKERThere are some Thread devices on the market now,

18:18SPEAKERbut some of those early ones

18:19SPEAKERdon't support everything you might want.

18:21SPEAKERSo we'll get into that.

18:22SPEAKER- Well, and because Thread is evolved

18:26SPEAKERout of the Zigbee Alliance and uses the same,

18:28SPEAKERokay, so let's get into Thread.

18:29SPEAKERWhat is Thread, I guess is the next step.

18:32SPEAKERLow-level wireless, it's a low-level,

18:34SPEAKERI wrote this down so I wouldn't mess it up.

18:36SPEAKERIt's a low-level wireless network

18:37SPEAKERthat utilizes mesh networking and IPv6

18:40SPEAKERto provide a modern reliable way to connect to low power,

18:43SPEAKERthat's an important phrase there,

18:45SPEAKERsmart home devices to your network.

18:47SPEAKERIt's exclusively for those.

18:49SPEAKERSo things that require high bandwidth

18:50SPEAKERlike cameras and music streaming boxes and stuff like that,

18:53SPEAKERTV streaming boxes, may connect,

18:55SPEAKERbut you're not going to run that data over your network.

18:58SPEAKERThe actual throughput is around 250 kilobits per second,

19:02SPEAKERwhich is more than sufficient

19:04SPEAKERfor things like light bulbs and switches, light switches,

19:09SPEAKERmotion sensors, door sensors,

19:11SPEAKERwater sensors, stuff like that.

19:14SPEAKERBut you're not going to do music even across this,

19:16SPEAKERmusic is high bandwidth in that context.

19:18SPEAKER- Yeah, so in that situation,

19:20SPEAKERthe device would get onto the network through Thread,

19:23SPEAKERbut you would pipe the heavy data through, say, Wi-Fi,

19:27SPEAKERor even ethernet.

19:28SPEAKER- Now, the weird thing is, and we'll talk about this more,

19:32SPEAKERbut like those higher devices,

19:34SPEAKERhigher bandwidth devices like Apple TVs

19:36SPEAKERand HomeKit speakers and Alexa's and Google Homes,

19:41SPEAKERNest Hubs and Nest speakers and stuff like that,

19:44SPEAKERare going to be Thread connected devices.

19:47SPEAKERBut they're going to be the kind of connection points

19:50SPEAKERwhere your Thread network interfaces

19:53SPEAKERwith the larger Wi-Fi slash IP network that's in your home.

19:58SPEAKER- Yeah, so this, I'm sorry.

20:01SPEAKER- Oh, I was gonna say, and a lot of those things

20:02SPEAKERare going to be backwards and forwards compatible.

20:04SPEAKERSo if you have HomeKit, what are the Apple speakers called?

20:12SPEAKER- Gosh, aren't they just branded under Home?

20:14SPEAKER- If you have HomePod minis, sorry.

20:16SPEAKERIf you have HomePod minis in your house,

20:18SPEAKERthose are already Thread enabled

20:21SPEAKERand you can connect your Thread devices to them

20:23SPEAKERand they'll serve as the hub.

20:24SPEAKERSo you don't need a SmartThings hub or a Home Assistant hub

20:28SPEAKERor an Alexa hub even if you have the right devices

20:32SPEAKERon your network already.

20:34SPEAKERIf you have smart home devices,

20:36SPEAKERyou probably already have some Thread hubs on your network.

20:39SPEAKERSo Thread routers is what they're called

20:41SPEAKERon your network already.

20:43SPEAKER- So Thread, you've said this already,

20:46SPEAKERThread uses 802.15.4 radio,

20:48SPEAKERwhich is the same thing that Zigbee uses.

20:50SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a design for mesh networks

20:52SPEAKERusing 2.4 gigahertz spectrum.

20:54SPEAKER- I actually, The Verge ran a really good article

20:56SPEAKERwith some folks who are major representatives

20:59SPEAKERof this effort.

21:00SPEAKERI kind of just want to quote from the sidebar.

21:02SPEAKERThey have, I'll link this in the show notes.

21:03SPEAKERThey have a really nice infographic and very basic,

21:07SPEAKEReasy to understand explanation of how a Thread network

21:09SPEAKERis put together that I think is kind of awesome.

21:11SPEAKERLike Thread sounds awesome.

21:12SPEAKERIf it works as advertised,

21:15SPEAKERit seems like a really neat standard.

21:17SPEAKEROkay, so I'm just gonna read from this.

21:20SPEAKERAny Thread device you add to your smart home

21:22SPEAKERbecomes either a router or an end device.

21:26SPEAKERA router is a device plugged into power,

21:28SPEAKERsuch as a light bulb or a smart plug.

21:30SPEAKERAn end device is a battery operated device,

21:32SPEAKERsuch as a motion sensor or door lock.

21:35SPEAKER- Yeah.

21:36SPEAKER- The first router on the network,

21:37SPEAKERagain, the router is plugged into power,

21:38SPEAKERbecomes the leader, able to direct other routers.

21:41SPEAKERIf one leader fails, another router can take its job.

21:45SPEAKER- So, and the leaders are now called border hubs, I believe.

21:50SPEAKER- Well, that's the last bit of it.

21:53SPEAKERSo there's an extra wrinkle there.

21:55SPEAKERA Thread network can support upwards of 250 devices,

21:58SPEAKERincluding 64 routers.

22:00SPEAKERIt can also support multiple border routers,

22:02SPEAKERwhich are always powered devices with an internet connection.

22:05SPEAKERSo a router is on wall power.

22:09SPEAKERA border router also has an internet connection.

22:11SPEAKER- When this is where the devices you already have

22:14SPEAKERbeing border routers is exciting,

22:16SPEAKER'cause it means you probably have a Thread network

22:17SPEAKERin your house already and you don't know it.

22:19SPEAKER- Right, that's the thing is like,

22:20SPEAKERthat might sound kind of complicated,

22:22SPEAKERbut like what this really does is obviate the need

22:24SPEAKERfor a central like controller,

22:26SPEAKERa central, like a Philadelphia hub

22:28SPEAKERor any kind of like a Zigbee, whatever,

22:30SPEAKERlike it's decentralized the way the internet it is, right?

22:32SPEAKERLike it's just a bunch of nodes that talk to each other

22:34SPEAKERand a bunch of them can be gateways out to your LAN

22:37SPEAKERand the internet.

22:38SPEAKER- Well, and the other difference is the requirement

22:40SPEAKERthat mains power connected devices are routers.

22:42SPEAKERThey don't necessarily have to be border routers

22:44SPEAKERthat connect to the larger internet,

22:45SPEAKERbut they do need to pass packets because with Zigbee,

22:48SPEAKERthat's an optional feature that a lot of vendors

22:50SPEAKERjust don't support.

22:51SPEAKERSo you have to really have, let's say detailed understanding

22:55SPEAKERof the devices that are connected to your network

22:57SPEAKERto know that your GE smart bulbs

22:59SPEAKERdon't have router functionality,

23:00SPEAKERbut your Cree smart bulbs do.

23:02SPEAKERAnd your Hue bulbs that have a weird subset of Zigbee anyway

23:05SPEAKERthat has to talk to their own hub.

23:07SPEAKERIt's a challenging situation for normal people.

23:11SPEAKER- So in your understanding, is it a requirement

23:13SPEAKERthat every wall powered Thread device is a router?

23:17SPEAKER- Everything that I've read so far has people

23:20SPEAKERfrom the connectivity standards alliance saying,

23:26SPEAKERif it's connected to mains, it's a router.

23:28SPEAKERSo whether that's a requirement or not is unclear.

23:31SPEAKERI didn't go through the entire spec for the protocol.

23:35SPEAKERSo I'm not 100%.

23:38SPEAKER- The idea of light bulbs directing network traffic

23:40SPEAKERin this setup is kind of hilarious to me.

23:42SPEAKER- Well, so the weird thing about light bulbs is,

23:46SPEAKERand I think the reason Zigbee didn't require this

23:48SPEAKERfor light bulbs is specifically because

23:49SPEAKERif you're putting smart bulbs in,

23:51SPEAKERyou're probably connecting them to physical switches

23:54SPEAKERthat when somebody turns off the lights in your office,

23:56SPEAKERif you have smart bulbs connected to that light switch,

23:59SPEAKERthen they don't have power anymore

24:00SPEAKERand therefore are no longer routers.

24:03SPEAKERIn the Zigbee world, routers going away is real bad.

24:07SPEAKERSo if you physically turn off a light switch

24:10SPEAKERthat is a router light switch,

24:11SPEAKERit will jack up the entire Zigbee net mesh

24:14SPEAKERunless you have a absolute butt load of Zigbee routers

24:18SPEAKERon your network.

24:20SPEAKER- It's hard for me to understand why they designed it

24:22SPEAKERin such a way that turning the light off

24:23SPEAKERalso disables the network functionality.

24:26SPEAKERLike, couldn't that have remained active on power

24:28SPEAKERwhile the light itself was off?

24:29SPEAKER- Well, okay, so there's two things.

24:31SPEAKERIf you say, "Hey, Google, turn off the light,"

24:34SPEAKERthen it's gonna turn off the light with software,

24:36SPEAKERwhich is fine, that works.

24:37SPEAKER- That's what I mean, yeah.

24:38SPEAKER- If somebody walks into the room

24:39SPEAKERand physically flips off the switch

24:41SPEAKERthat's been there since 1950.

24:42SPEAKER- Oh, sure, sure.

24:43SPEAKEROh, I didn't realize that's what,

24:44SPEAKERI didn't realize that's the switch you meant.

24:46SPEAKERI thought you meant just turning the light off at all.

24:48SPEAKER- Yeah, no, no, I mean a physical hard-wired switch

24:50SPEAKERto the bulb socket.

24:52SPEAKER- Or for that matter, somebody could unscrew the light bulb

24:55SPEAKERfrom the thing unknowingly.

24:57SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, look, you could rearrange your living room

25:00SPEAKERand move a lamp that turns out to be in a key spot

25:03SPEAKERand is a Zigbee node, is a Zigbee router node.

25:06SPEAKERSo like I've had in my house personally,

25:08SPEAKERa lot of problems getting the Zigbee mesh to collapse

25:11SPEAKERbecause if I, like, for example, it turns out

25:14SPEAKERthe smart plug that was using our Christmas tree

25:17SPEAKERwhen I set up the Zigbee network last time

25:19SPEAKERwas the key node in the house.

25:21SPEAKERAnd when I took this Christmas tree down

25:23SPEAKERand unplugged that smart plug,

25:25SPEAKERZigbee network on the back half of the house collapsed.

25:27SPEAKER- Cool.

25:30SPEAKER- Theoretically, this should heal better.

25:32SPEAKERAnd the fact that you can have multiple border routers

25:34SPEAKERthroughout the house versus one Zigbee hub

25:38SPEAKERshould mean that if the back half of the house

25:40SPEAKERand the front half of the house

25:41SPEAKERget disconnected from each other,

25:43SPEAKERit just works itself out and you continue staying connected.

25:46SPEAKER- That sounds awesome.

25:47SPEAKERLike decentralized and self-healing

25:49SPEAKERare the kind of key terms here to me.

25:51SPEAKER- No, we've heard this before.

25:52SPEAKERZigbee is supposed to be self-healing too.

25:54SPEAKERIt's just wildly dependent on your devices and your hub,

25:57SPEAKERwhether it actually works or not.

25:58SPEAKER- I mean, you're right.

25:59SPEAKERIt does seem like there could be edge cases

26:01SPEAKERyou could end up in where you have a ton

26:03SPEAKERof battery powered thread devices

26:05SPEAKERand only save one wall powered one.

26:08SPEAKERAnd then you only, the fact that you only have one router

26:10SPEAKERand that could still be problematic, but.

26:12SPEAKER- But it seems like you can solve that problem

26:13SPEAKERby plugging in some smart switches

26:16SPEAKERthroughout the house or something like that,

26:17SPEAKERlike smart plugs throughout the house.

26:18SPEAKERAnyway, the upshot for this whole network

26:21SPEAKERis the network throughput, like I said,

26:23SPEAKERis around 250 kilobits per second,

26:25SPEAKERwhich is really, really low.

26:26SPEAKERAnd most data packet transfers are happening

26:30SPEAKERat like a single or dual or two packet level.

26:33SPEAKERSo like you're talking about 20 bytes of data

26:35SPEAKERfrom a bulb or a motion sensor or something like that

26:37SPEAKERto indicate that motion is happening and motion's stopped.

26:42SPEAKERSo often like the routing information

26:44SPEAKERis bigger than the actual data packet itself.

26:49SPEAKERThe whole thing is optimized for latency.

26:51SPEAKER- Yeah, that's one of the coolest things

26:53SPEAKERabout this whole thing.

26:54SPEAKER- I mean, Zigbee also is optimized for latency,

26:56SPEAKERbut it tends to take a little bit longer sometimes.

27:00SPEAKERI think the latency is, Zigbee latency and thread latency

27:04SPEAKERare gonna be pretty analogous.

27:06SPEAKERThe difference is like an IP based cloud based smart plug

27:10SPEAKERor something that has to go out to a server on the internet

27:13SPEAKERand come back, which can have a 250 millisecond

27:15SPEAKERround trip time or something,

27:17SPEAKERwhich means that there's a noticeable lag.

27:19SPEAKERA quarter of a second is a noticeable lag

27:20SPEAKERwhen you're used to instant switches happening.

27:23SPEAKER- Yeah, and everything we have is wifi.

27:26SPEAKERI mean, it's all going through Home Assistant.

27:27SPEAKERSo here it's all at least local travel,

27:29SPEAKERbut there is still like some perceptible lag

27:31SPEAKERbetween tapping a button on my phone

27:33SPEAKERand the light coming on.

27:34SPEAKER- Well, and wifi is a higher latency network

27:37SPEAKERthan these mesh networks typically.

27:40SPEAKEREverything uses UDP, so that means it has to handle

27:42SPEAKERthe data, like loss data or out of order packet arrival

27:48SPEAKERon the application layer rather than

27:49SPEAKERthe network protocol layer, which is probably a good thing

27:53SPEAKERbecause they should be doing that anyway.

27:56SPEAKEROften with this kind of network device,

28:00SPEAKERstuff coming out of order is, you end up replicating

28:04SPEAKERthat effort on the application layer

28:06SPEAKERand the network protocol layer anyway,

28:07SPEAKERso it just increases the network traffic a lot.

28:10SPEAKERAnd this means that it should theoretically be able

28:12SPEAKERto ping the devices and say, hey, I missed that.

28:14SPEAKERCan you send it again?

28:15SPEAKERAnd it'll work itself out rather than it happening,

28:17SPEAKERlike I said, two times at the application

28:18SPEAKERand the network protocol layer.

28:22SPEAKERThe weird thing about this being based on Zigbee

28:25SPEAKERis on the same network protocol as Zigbee

28:28SPEAKERis that it means that often these devices

28:31SPEAKERare gonna be software upgradeable.

28:32SPEAKERSo like if you have a device that already supports Zigbee,

28:35SPEAKERif it has enough processing and compute on the device

28:39SPEAKERand the vendor decides to write a thread stack for it,

28:42SPEAKERin addition to a Zigbee stack for it,

28:44SPEAKERyou might just get a software upgrade

28:46SPEAKERthat makes a device that's a Zigbee device

28:48SPEAKERin your house a thread device.

28:49SPEAKER- That's cool, that's neat.

28:50SPEAKERYeah, like to put it another way,

28:52SPEAKERZigbee devices already have the radio

28:54SPEAKERand antenna hardware they need to participate in this

28:57SPEAKERif they have enough memory and stuff to be upgraded.

29:00SPEAKER- Now, the bad news is it's unclear to me

29:03SPEAKERwhether I think you're probably gonna still need

29:05SPEAKERsome device specific applications to do things

29:08SPEAKERlike firmware upgrades and stuff like that.

29:10SPEAKERBecause it's unclear to me,

29:13SPEAKERthere is talk of firmware upgrade protocols

29:16SPEAKERfor either thread or matter,

29:18SPEAKERthat part is a little bit unclear to me.

29:20SPEAKERSome of this stuff is woven into each other

29:22SPEAKEReven when you read the core specs.

29:25SPEAKERBut it seems like at least for the stuff that's available now

29:27SPEAKERyou have to use a vendor specific app to update firmware.

29:30SPEAKERAnd that may change over time,

29:31SPEAKERbut for now vendor specific is the way it goes.

29:37SPEAKER- I, the other thing is that TI,

29:39SPEAKERwhich is one of the vendors that makes a lot of the chips

29:41SPEAKERthat do this radio work is claiming that Zigbee

29:45SPEAKERis slightly more power efficient than thread.

29:48SPEAKERBut the point isn't, I think the goal here

29:51SPEAKERis to get people off of Wi-Fi only devices

29:55SPEAKERwhere it doesn't make sense.

29:56SPEAKER'Cause A, the Wi-Fi chips are more expensive,

29:57SPEAKERthey use more power, they congest your network,

30:00SPEAKERyou don't need them for this.

30:01SPEAKERSo moving them to thread seems like it's a win

30:04SPEAKERin that regard.

30:05SPEAKER- It is a little weird when I pull up the list

30:08SPEAKERof DHCP leases on my router and like over half the devices

30:11SPEAKERon my entire network are smart plugs and other related.

30:15SPEAKER- Yeah. - You know what I mean?

30:16SPEAKERLike everything does not need its own IP.

30:18SPEAKER- I'm glad that I have most of that stuff on Zigbee

30:22SPEAKERin my house 'cause it's a lot of devices

30:24SPEAKERand I'd rather not, like I don't wanna have to have

30:26SPEAKERtwo 256 device subnets for my tiny little house

30:31SPEAKERbecause of all the devices that three people have connected

30:34SPEAKERplus all the smart home crap.

30:36SPEAKER- Right, I don't know if you have an answer for this,

30:38SPEAKERI'm not even sure that I'm asking the questions accurately,

30:41SPEAKERbut like the, so the IPv6 is self-contained

30:43SPEAKERwithin the thread network, correct?

30:45SPEAKER- IPv6, presumably it's addressable from outside

30:49SPEAKER'cause IPv6 works differently with NAT and routing

30:52SPEAKERbecause there's so many IP addresses,

30:53SPEAKERyou can theoretically address stuff from everywhere.

30:56SPEAKERMost routers don't traverse the network,

30:58SPEAKERthe internet to the network for obvious reasons.

31:00SPEAKER- Yeah.

31:02SPEAKER- My assumption is that with matter on thread,

31:07SPEAKERyou'll be able to traverse the border router

31:11SPEAKERwithout any kind of NAT or translation layer.

31:13SPEAKER- Okay, that was kind of my question was like,

31:15SPEAKERfor example, is your router gonna need to both support

31:18SPEAKERand have enabled IPv6 support?

31:21SPEAKER- That is a very good question, I don't know.

31:23SPEAKERI would assume that we're gonna have to turn IPv6 on

31:25SPEAKERfor most of this stuff to work.

31:27SPEAKER- Right, right, or not that you would ever do this,

31:28SPEAKERbut like, could I ping one of these thread devices

31:32SPEAKERfrom my PC, for example?

31:34SPEAKER- Presumably, yes.

31:35SPEAKER- Not that it's, that is just me wanting to understand

31:38SPEAKERhow these things are connected,

31:39SPEAKERnot like, oh, I need to ping my smart plugs.

31:40SPEAKERIt's just like, can a device on say your Wi-Fi

31:44SPEAKERor your wired LAN just talk to thread devices

31:48SPEAKERthrough that router kind of gateway?

31:52SPEAKER- Presumably, yes, my guess is that none of these devices

31:54SPEAKERare gonna have ping running on them.

31:55SPEAKERSo your ping won't, that won't actually work.

31:57SPEAKER- Yeah, or ICP or whatever it is.

31:59SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.

32:01SPEAKER- Yeah, I just meant more like,

32:02SPEAKERare they technically all on the same LAN or not?

32:06SPEAKER- I was gonna say the thing to remember here

32:08SPEAKERis that thread is, oh, the last part is range.

32:11SPEAKERThe stated range for 802.15.4 is 100 meters,

32:15SPEAKERbut that's like line of sight in a field in Iowa someplace,

32:17SPEAKERnot actually in a congested house.

32:20SPEAKERIn my experience, depending on whether you're on a battery

32:23SPEAKERor mains powered device, you're looking at like 10 meters

32:25SPEAKERon a good day and realistically lower

32:29SPEAKERwhen you get around stuff like refrigerators

32:30SPEAKERand washing machines and brick walls and things like that.

32:34SPEAKERThe upshot is that this is a compliment for Wi-Fi

32:38SPEAKERand not a replacement that you'll put the things

32:41SPEAKERthat don't require large data, that latency is important

32:44SPEAKERand don't require large network throughput

32:46SPEAKERon the thread network.

32:48SPEAKERAnd then the things that do require like video and audio

32:51SPEAKERand things like that will live on Wi-Fi

32:53SPEAKERand probably they won't cross except on the,

32:58SPEAKERin the device, the example of those border routers,

33:00SPEAKERwhich you'll wanna have throughout your house

33:03SPEAKERjust to help with the kind of resiliency

33:07SPEAKERof the thread network.

33:10SPEAKER- Probably worth pointing out that the thread network

33:13SPEAKERtraffic is encrypted by default?

33:15SPEAKER- Yeah, so Zigbee's encrypted as well.

33:17SPEAKERZ-Wave, it's optional based on your devices,

33:20SPEAKERlike old Z-Wave, Z-Wave is old enough

33:22SPEAKERthat encryption was still a state secret

33:24SPEAKERand we weren't allowed to export it,

33:25SPEAKERso there's a lot of old Z-Wave devices

33:27SPEAKERthat don't actually support encryption

33:28SPEAKERor don't support meaningful encryption.

33:31SPEAKERThe Zigbee encryption,

33:32SPEAKERI didn't actually dig into the details of it,

33:34SPEAKERbut I looked at it and I was like, this is a little,

33:36SPEAKERthis looks like it's maybe not as encrypted

33:38SPEAKERas you might want.

33:41SPEAKERThe new stuff is elliptical AES, it's like heavy duty,

33:45SPEAKERit's actually meaningful encryption is the quote

33:48SPEAKERI saw for that.

33:49SPEAKER- So like for example, border routers

33:51SPEAKERthat are connected to the internet can't spy on

33:54SPEAKERor can't understand the traffic from other thread devices

33:57SPEAKERthat is running through them.

33:58SPEAKER- Yeah, the packets are encrypted to the point

33:59SPEAKERthat they won't know what's passing through them,

34:01SPEAKERthey just know that something's passing

34:02SPEAKERfrom device A to device C.

34:04SPEAKER- So I wonder, and this is, I bet some people

34:06SPEAKERin the Discord will have opinions about this,

34:07SPEAKERbut like, you know, one of the,

34:09SPEAKERprobably the most common like VLAN scenario

34:12SPEAKERthat I see people using in home settings

34:14SPEAKERis making a VLAN just for internet of things devices

34:16SPEAKERthat are on there, that are on Wi-Fi

34:18SPEAKERbecause they don't want those things,

34:20SPEAKERsecurity is bad on a lot of those things,

34:21SPEAKERlike they're worried about vulnerabilities,

34:23SPEAKERthey don't want those able to talk

34:24SPEAKERto actually important machines in their house.

34:27SPEAKERLike, I wonder if like,

34:28SPEAKERdoes having everything on a thread network instead

34:30SPEAKERjust kind of obviate that problem or solve that problem?

34:34SPEAKER- So one of the goals of Matter and Thread seems to be,

34:39SPEAKERhey, we probably need to get all of these things

34:42SPEAKERencrypted and safe.

34:46SPEAKERMy understanding is that, yes, this will,

34:49SPEAKERbecause everything is running inside this different network,

34:53SPEAKERyou don't have the widely accessible,

34:56SPEAKERlike you're not connecting to some weird cloud service

34:58SPEAKERand then that cloud service is a vector

35:00SPEAKERfor you to bring threats into the home.

35:05SPEAKERYou still need to keep yourself updated.

35:07SPEAKERLike it's always, it's always like,

35:09SPEAKERso I guess I'm much less worried about Zigbee exploits

35:12SPEAKERbecause you have to be within 20 feet of my house

35:15SPEAKERto hit the Zigbee network than I am about smart hub exploit.

35:23SPEAKERSo yeah, I mean, I think generally more secure,

35:27SPEAKERbut as always remains to be seen.

35:29SPEAKERHaving better encryption between the devices is good.

35:31SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, obviously everything can have exploits

35:33SPEAKERand vulnerabilities.

35:34SPEAKERI mean, I guess that really just goes

35:35SPEAKERto the same question I asked earlier about like,

35:37SPEAKERcan devices on your regular LAN talk to devices

35:41SPEAKERon the thread network by default?

35:42SPEAKER- Seems like the answer is yes.

35:44SPEAKERStill a lot of details to understand here.

35:48SPEAKER- The, let's see, I think we've gotten the thread route,

35:51SPEAKERthe border router is pretty well established there.

35:54SPEAKERThey are the connection points, having multiples is good.

35:57SPEAKERLike this is another one of the big differences

35:59SPEAKERbetween Zigbee and the thread stuff.

36:02SPEAKER- So again, that's something that's plugged

36:03SPEAKERinto the wall power and has an internet connection.

36:05SPEAKERSo that's obviously that's like you've written here,

36:08SPEAKERlike Google Nest Hubs, like Apple TVs, HomePod minis,

36:11SPEAKERlike Alexa, I'm trying to think of like more esoteric devices

36:16SPEAKERthat would also have internet connections.

36:18SPEAKER- Thermostats.

36:19SPEAKER- Okay, sure.

36:21SPEAKER- Smoke detectors, probably like doorbell cameras,

36:24SPEAKERstuff like that.

36:25SPEAKER- Okay, okay, so it's actually a pretty broad spread

36:27SPEAKERof product categories that can serve in that role.

36:30SPEAKER- It seems like it's dependent on A, the connection

36:32SPEAKERto power and B, the amount of compute and memory

36:35SPEAKERon the devices, and whether the vendor wants

36:39SPEAKERto support them.

36:41SPEAKER- Lots of these already exist.

36:42SPEAKERSo Apple TV 4K, second gen boxes, Google Nest Hubs,

36:47SPEAKERthe Max and V2 small one, and HomePod minis

36:51SPEAKERand Alexa fourth gen.

36:52SPEAKERI don't know if Alexa fourth gen has actually landed,

36:54SPEAKERbut the HomePod minis all already support

36:57SPEAKERthe border router functionality.

36:58SPEAKERAnd like you can connect thread devices to them today.

37:01SPEAKERThe neat thing is it seems like you don't,

37:03SPEAKERif you have a thread network running,

37:05SPEAKERyou don't have to specify which one you connect to.

37:07SPEAKERIt just sees it on your local network

37:09SPEAKERwhen you connect something.

37:10SPEAKER- That's cool.

37:11SPEAKER- And it just magically connects.

37:13SPEAKERI don't understand exactly how that works.

37:15SPEAKERIt's a little bit unclear.

37:16SPEAKERI actually ordered a couple of smart plugs

37:18SPEAKERso I can try it out and see how the stuff works.

37:20SPEAKERAnd we'll talk about maybe on the end of month

37:22SPEAKERquestion and answer episode.

37:24SPEAKER- Do you wanna say what they are?

37:26SPEAKER- I got a Wemo smart plug 'cause I needed a new smart plug.

37:30SPEAKER- And are those being advertised as thread enabled?

37:32SPEAKERLike is that prominent in the packaging and marketing or?

37:35SPEAKER- If you click on the thread page from Belkin's site,

37:38SPEAKERit takes you to the devices that have that and there's two,

37:42SPEAKERthey have two thread devices right now, so.

37:43SPEAKER- Okay, 'cause I mean, I wanna say right now,

37:45SPEAKERlike I, first of all,

37:47SPEAKERI don't have any experience with Zigbee.

37:48SPEAKERSo it sounds like some of the things that I think

37:50SPEAKERsound exciting about thread have already existed

37:53SPEAKERin the previous standard, but still, you know,

37:56SPEAKERhaving nothing but wifi enabled smart stuff around here,

37:58SPEAKERlike I want to cease buying any smart stuff

38:01SPEAKERuntil thread is like really proliferated.

38:03SPEAKERAnd like, it seems like you're really gonna want support

38:06SPEAKERfor this across the board if you can get it.

38:08SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, the big benefit to people

38:10SPEAKERis that you don't have to buy a separate hub

38:12SPEAKERif you already have one of the established border routers,

38:15SPEAKERright? - Right.

38:17SPEAKER- I don't anticipate buying a whole lot more Zigbee stuff

38:20SPEAKERknowing what I know about thread now.

38:22SPEAKER- I actually was just thinking about getting into some,

38:26SPEAKERsome people in the Discord had found,

38:28SPEAKERI've really been wanting to monitor energy usage

38:30SPEAKERon my PC and my NAS.

38:31SPEAKER- Yeah. - And some people

38:32SPEAKERon the Discord had found some smart plugs,

38:34SPEAKERsome Zigbee smart plugs that did like pretty good

38:37SPEAKERgranular energy monitoring that I was kind of just about

38:41SPEAKERto buy a Zigbee, I mean, like Zigbee receivers,

38:42SPEAKERlike 20 bucks, you know, it's not.

38:44SPEAKER- Well, but assuming you have a machine

38:45SPEAKERto run the USB stick, yeah. - Plug it into,

38:48SPEAKERI mean, I would plug it into the Pi

38:49SPEAKERthat runs my home assistant, but like the point is though,

38:52SPEAKERlike investing in Zigbee at this late date

38:54SPEAKERis probably not the best idea because we're like

38:56SPEAKERright here on the cusp of the successor.

38:59SPEAKER- Yeah, now I was gonna say it's,

39:03SPEAKERwell, we'll talk about how this is gonna work

39:04SPEAKERin the real world and where you haven't established,

39:08SPEAKERwhere you already have some stuff that runs this

39:11SPEAKERat the end of the show, but it's,

39:15SPEAKERI am not gonna spend money on probably Zigbee stuff

39:18SPEAKERthat's not gonna get upgraded at this point

39:19SPEAKERis my official policy.

39:23SPEAKERI think that's it, like the idea,

39:26SPEAKERthough the last part is there's some housekeeping stuff

39:29SPEAKERthat is a problem with Zigbee and also Z-Wave,

39:32SPEAKERbut Z-Wave is kind of irrelevant at this point.

39:35SPEAKERLike things that fall off the network

39:37SPEAKERdue to dead low batteries not reflecting the battery status

39:39SPEAKERas they start to fail is a perennial problem with Zigbee.

39:43SPEAKERZigbee like door sensors, motion sensors, stuff like that.

39:46SPEAKERI don't know, like I haven't seen

39:48SPEAKERwhether this addresses that.

39:50SPEAKERLike that part is unclear to me and I'm curious if,

39:53SPEAKERfor example, the standard for showing battery life remaining

39:58SPEAKERis actually a standard or if it's just up to the vendor

40:01SPEAKERjust to pass that information with all the other data.

40:06SPEAKERLight bulbs that don't report their status

40:08SPEAKERso the controller has to track it and base it

40:10SPEAKERon whether you have turned the light switch,

40:13SPEAKERthe physical light switch in the room on and off

40:15SPEAKERis another one.

40:16SPEAKERSo like a lot of the smart bulbs don't actively ping back

40:20SPEAKERwith whether they're on and what their brightness is

40:22SPEAKERand all that stuff.

40:23SPEAKERSo if the hub and the bulb get out of sync,

40:28SPEAKERyou don't have any idea what, like it's not bad,

40:33SPEAKERit's just annoying.

40:34SPEAKERLike this is all annoying stuff,

40:36SPEAKERnot like end of the world problems.

40:39SPEAKERThere are a big list of benefits

40:40SPEAKERand I'll hit those real quick and then we can move on.

40:43SPEAKERBut the config and setup being the same for all the devices

40:46SPEAKERand all the vendors, it seems like a really huge win.

40:51SPEAKERWhether that actually comes to fruition or not

40:53SPEAKERremains to be seen.

40:55SPEAKER- Yeah, this whole effort has been in motion

40:57SPEAKERfor some years now.

40:58SPEAKERAnd like we said, all the major players are in there,

41:00SPEAKERso you hope this is all pretty well thought out.

41:03SPEAKER- And not just, hey, now we have 15 standards instead of 14.

41:07SPEAKERThe Thread mesh is handing off

41:09SPEAKERbetween different border routers if something moves

41:11SPEAKERor something disconnects or whatever is really good.

41:14SPEAKERIt does work without Wi-Fi, without internet.

41:17SPEAKERIf your internet goes down and you still have power,

41:19SPEAKERthen the Thread devices will continue to work,

41:21SPEAKERassuming your hub, you can still connect to those hubs

41:25SPEAKERand everything will still work theoretically,

41:28SPEAKERassuming you have devices that don't require

41:30SPEAKERcloud connections connected to this.

41:34SPEAKERAnd you can use multiple application layers

41:37SPEAKERon top of the Thread network, which is really,

41:39SPEAKERlike I think that's, I didn't kind of appreciate

41:44SPEAKERhow big a deal that is until I looked at it

41:46SPEAKERand I was like, oh, right.

41:48SPEAKERImagine if you could only run your Apple TV connection

41:53SPEAKERto streaming video over Wi-Fi.

41:56SPEAKERIf you had a Wi-Fi network and that was all you could do

41:58SPEAKERover it, or you had a Wi-Fi network and all you could do

42:00SPEAKERover it was use HTTPS and connect to web browsers.

42:04SPEAKERYou couldn't do any music streaming, you couldn't do any,

42:06SPEAKERI mean, HTTPS is probably a bad example

42:08SPEAKER'cause everything runs over HTTPS,

42:09SPEAKERbut imagine you had to have a network for cURL, right?

42:14SPEAKERFor all those cURL API transfers.

42:16SPEAKERAnd then you had to have another one for HTTPS,

42:19SPEAKERanother one for streaming video,

42:20SPEAKERand another one for streaming audio.

42:22SPEAKERIt's ludicrous when you think about how Wi-Fi works.

42:25SPEAKERAnd that's how the ZigBee and Z-Wave stuff worked

42:27SPEAKERprior to the Thread.

42:30SPEAKEROkay, this is kind of turning into a monster episode,

42:32SPEAKERbut let's talk about Matter a little bit

42:34SPEAKER'cause this is the part that's both more amorphous

42:37SPEAKERand more interesting to me, I think,

42:38SPEAKERthan the low-level protocol.

42:40SPEAKER- Yeah.

42:41SPEAKERSo yeah, Matter, like we said, just again at the top line,

42:45SPEAKERMatter is analogous to HomeKit, Alexa,

42:48SPEAKERlike the vendor-specific platforms,

42:50SPEAKERthe software level that runs on top of ZigBee

42:53SPEAKERor Wi-Fi or Thread, which is the network.

42:56SPEAKER- But this is vendor-agnostic.

42:58SPEAKER- Yes, this one.

42:59SPEAKERSo I guess the big question I have out of the gate is like,

43:02SPEAKERare all those vendor-specific standards

43:04SPEAKERgoing to coexist alongside Matter,

43:06SPEAKERor is everybody slowly gonna move over to Matter?

43:08SPEAKERBecause like Paul has told us on the FOSPOD episode

43:10SPEAKERthat there is room in the Matter spec

43:13SPEAKERfor vendor-specific extensions.

43:14SPEAKERSo they can build their own functionality

43:16SPEAKERas part of Matter down the line if they wanna go that way.

43:19SPEAKERBut having all these eco,

43:21SPEAKEReven with the unifying effect of Thread

43:26SPEAKERat the networking level,

43:26SPEAKERlike still having all these different software platforms

43:29SPEAKERcompeting seems like a real pain if it goes that way.

43:32SPEAKER- Well, it's expensive for the vendors,

43:34SPEAKERwhich adds cost to consumers, theoretically.

43:37SPEAKERI think my guess is that we'll see,

43:41SPEAKERwell, A, there's gonna be legacy stuff in the channel

43:43SPEAKERfor a really long time that just says works with HomeKit

43:45SPEAKERor works with Google Nest or whatever.

43:49SPEAKERI think that we will see this,

43:52SPEAKERif this works as it should,

43:55SPEAKERI think we'll see this go pretty fast.

43:58SPEAKERMeaning five years, not 15.

44:02SPEAKERThe focus is to make sure that your hardware

44:04SPEAKERwill work with other hardware you run.

44:05SPEAKERSo your Google hardware will be able to talk

44:07SPEAKERto your Apple hardware and your Apple Watch

44:10SPEAKERand your Alexa speaker in a meaningful way.

44:14SPEAKERThe thing that is important to note

44:16SPEAKERis that this is just for low-level, low-traffic stuff

44:19SPEAKERpretty much in the beginning.

44:21SPEAKERThere isn't a lot of,

44:23SPEAKERthere aren't a lot of high-data throughput features in this,

44:27SPEAKERbut that is extensive.

44:28SPEAKERThey're gonna continue extending and adding more categories

44:31SPEAKERthat they support to this as time goes on.

44:38SPEAKERAnd as with Thread,

44:40SPEAKERMatter will let you run multiple applications on the network.

44:42SPEAKERSo instead of having to worry about

44:44SPEAKERwhether you're a HomeKit network or a Weave network

44:46SPEAKERor a ZigBee and Z-Wave network,

44:49SPEAKERyou'll connect everything to the same network

44:51SPEAKERand then you can use your Google Home app

44:52SPEAKERor you can use your Apple Home app

44:54SPEAKERor you can use your Alexa voice control or whatever

44:57SPEAKERand it'll all work the same way

44:58SPEAKERand they'll all see the same devices

45:00SPEAKERin a way that you have to be very deliberate

45:02SPEAKERand careful about now

45:03SPEAKERif you wanna have a similar functionality.

45:04SPEAKER- So that was the thing I kinda wanna come in here

45:06SPEAKERand ask you.

45:07SPEAKERI know that is the pitch.

45:08SPEAKERI know that's how this is supposed to work,

45:09SPEAKERbut from a realistic practical standpoint,

45:13SPEAKERare we gonna get to that utopia where like,

45:14SPEAKERokay, say you want to use, I don't know, an Apple TV,

45:17SPEAKERlike you like the Apple ecosystem.

45:20SPEAKERLike, are you definitely for sure

45:22SPEAKERreally going to just be sitting there

45:23SPEAKERcontrolling Google devices and Amazon devices

45:25SPEAKERfrom the interface on the Apple TV and everybody?

45:28SPEAKERLike, are we actually gonna get to that utopia

45:30SPEAKERof just everybody's stuff

45:32SPEAKERis friendly to everybody else's stuff?

45:33SPEAKERLike, I guess, or put it another way,

45:35SPEAKERlike our corporate politics

45:37SPEAKERand kind of walled garden sorts of policies

45:41SPEAKERstill going to kind of muck this whole thing up

45:43SPEAKERdo you think?

45:44SPEAKER- I mean, TBD?

45:46SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess that's the way to know.

45:49SPEAKERIt's not so good to be true, I guess,

45:50SPEAKERis what I'm trying to say.

45:51SPEAKERIt seems like people, like different companies

45:52SPEAKERalways have different interests

45:54SPEAKERthat are opposed to each other

45:56SPEAKERand like things don't always work out

45:57SPEAKERas smoothly as you would like.

45:58SPEAKER- Well, so the thing is you can do that stuff right now,

46:03SPEAKERbut you have to use some connective glue,

46:04SPEAKERwhether it's smart things or a home assistant

46:06SPEAKERor something else to make it all work.

46:08SPEAKER- Right, that's what I mean though.

46:09SPEAKERLike I'm saying out of the box for everyone,

46:11SPEAKERlike, do you really think we're actually going to get

46:13SPEAKERto the point where everything does that?

46:16SPEAKER- I mean, that's the promise.

46:17SPEAKERSo like they have gotten executives

46:22SPEAKERfrom the big companies that are involved with this

46:24SPEAKERthat usually don't talk to each other a lot on the board.

46:28SPEAKERLike they're all the CEO and CTO and CF,

46:30SPEAKERall the people, CMO are all from the different companies.

46:33SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess, I mean, maybe a less jaded approach

46:38SPEAKERto this is that it is actually good for everyone

46:41SPEAKERin terms of selling more products,

46:42SPEAKERif they work in more places with more things.

46:45SPEAKER- Well, and I think the big key here is that

46:47SPEAKERinstead of you having to choose whether your allegiance

46:49SPEAKERis to Apple or Google or Amazon,

46:52SPEAKERlike this is a rising tide lifts all ships situations.

46:54SPEAKER'Cause it means that, yeah, so Alexa is not the only one

46:58SPEAKERthat's connected to your network now

47:00SPEAKERbecause you can connect multiple,

47:01SPEAKERrun multiple applications on the same network.

47:05SPEAKERIt does give you, I mean,

47:10SPEAKERbecause the network is portable between applications now

47:13SPEAKERin a way that it wasn't before,

47:15SPEAKERlike if you wanted to move to a different Zigbee hub,

47:18SPEAKERyou had to disconnect all of the light bulbs

47:21SPEAKERand then manually reconnect each one to the network,

47:24SPEAKERwhich is like a multi-hour process

47:25SPEAKERif you have 20 bulbs in your house,

47:26SPEAKERwhich isn't a ton of bulbs.

47:29SPEAKERThe benefit is they can compete with each other

47:32SPEAKERon features and capabilities.

47:36SPEAKERAnd because you can run multiple applications

47:39SPEAKERon the same network, that's portable.

47:41SPEAKERSo if I wanna switch from using Apple Home to Google Home,

47:46SPEAKERbecause Google Home has some sick new feature

47:48SPEAKERthat I'm really excited about,

47:49SPEAKERI can do that without it being like a multi-day event

47:52SPEAKERand me having to go through

47:53SPEAKERand reprogram a bunch of nonsense.

47:54SPEAKERLike it's the same thing.

47:55SPEAKERIf I wanna use Home Assistant

47:56SPEAKERbecause the scripting is more capable there,

47:58SPEAKERI connect to the network

47:59SPEAKERand sees all the stuff that's on there.

48:00SPEAKERAnd then I can just go, which is really exciting.

48:04SPEAKERI think like I like the idea of these companies saying,

48:07SPEAKERhey, yeah, we're gonna compete on features

48:08SPEAKERinstead of lock-in, that seems like it's good for everybody.

48:12SPEAKER- Yeah, absolutely, that is the ideal.

48:14SPEAKERMaybe I should not be so cynical.

48:17SPEAKER- Well, I mean, look, it doesn't always work this way.

48:20SPEAKER- Some skepticism is probably always warranted

48:22SPEAKERwhen something sounds this good.

48:24SPEAKER- I think the skepticism is,

48:26SPEAKERlike I always think the skepticism is warranted,

48:28SPEAKERbut I mean, they've been working on it for a long time

48:31SPEAKERand everybody seems to be operating in good faith

48:33SPEAKERfrom what I can tell.

48:36SPEAKER- The configuration for Matter seems to be reliant

48:40SPEAKERon Bluetooth LE, which is the same spectrum

48:43SPEAKERas the 802.15.4, the 2.4 gigahertz spectrum.

48:49SPEAKERAnd basically you'll get the device close

48:52SPEAKERand it'll pass the Matter credentials to the new hardware

48:56SPEAKERrather than doing all the infinity of different ways

49:00SPEAKERthat you connect to devices now.

49:02SPEAKER- That is maybe-

49:03SPEAKER- HopeKit uses QR codes and Weave uses NFC

49:05SPEAKERand there's a bunch of different ways you do stuff.

49:07SPEAKER- Yeah, onboarding is maybe the thing

49:09SPEAKERI'm most excited about here.

49:10SPEAKERAnd especially anything that prevents you

49:11SPEAKERfrom having to deal with a vendor specific app

49:14SPEAKERevery time you want to add a new device to your network.

49:16SPEAKERIf it's all, like what you're describing

49:19SPEAKERis all kind of like gesture and proximity based.

49:21SPEAKERIf it's all just like hold a button down

49:23SPEAKERon your new smart plug and then like say,

49:25SPEAKERhold your phone near it and blah, blah, blah.

49:26SPEAKEROr you know what I mean?

49:27SPEAKERLike if it's more about just like plug a thing in

49:29SPEAKERand hit some buttons and it works, but that's fantastic.

49:32SPEAKER- I just never want to have to do the one second on,

49:34SPEAKERtwo second off, one second on, two second off,

49:36SPEAKERone second on, two second off timing

49:38SPEAKERto reset a light bulb ever again.

49:40SPEAKER- Playing light bulb Morse code is-

49:41SPEAKER- Yeah, matter at launch is going to support light stuff,

49:46SPEAKERplugs, bulbs, switches, et cetera, door locks,

49:49SPEAKERthermostats and HVAC boxes, blinds and shades,

49:52SPEAKERsecurity type sensors like motion, door and windows,

49:54SPEAKERsmoke and carbon monoxide sensors, garage door controllers,

49:58SPEAKERwireless access points and routers.

50:00SPEAKERPresumably those are going to be like the border routers

50:09SPEAKERand like the Eero, the Amazon Eero boxes

50:14SPEAKERare border routers now out of the box as well.

50:17SPEAKERAnd then TV and streaming boxes

50:18SPEAKERpresumably also as border routers.

50:20SPEAKER- Sure, man, I had not even considered the,

50:22SPEAKERI know there are motorized shades out there.

50:24SPEAKERI had not even considered the idea

50:25SPEAKERof automated motorized shades.

50:27SPEAKERI mean, as somebody with a gigantic bay window

50:29SPEAKERin the living room-

50:30SPEAKER- Oh man, I've thought about it.

50:32SPEAKER- Giant bay window and a plasma TV don't mix well,

50:34SPEAKERI will say.

50:35SPEAKER- No, you need those shades.

50:36SPEAKER- Most TVs though.

50:37SPEAKERBut yeah, like I literally need blackout curtains

50:39SPEAKERto play games and for large swaths of the day.

50:42SPEAKER- Yeah.

50:43SPEAKER- That sounds like living.

50:44SPEAKER- It's tempting.

50:47SPEAKERAll of the matter also requires encryption

50:50SPEAKERbetween all the devices,

50:54SPEAKERand which is more important as you pointed out

50:56SPEAKERbecause we're running IPv6 rather than private networks

50:58SPEAKERthat are gated by a hub of some kind.

51:04SPEAKERIt's unclear.

51:06SPEAKERSo the question for me is how this stuff interacts.

51:08SPEAKERFor people who are starting from scratch,

51:10SPEAKERyeah, just buy all thread and buy matter stuff.

51:12SPEAKERIf you already have a bunch of Zigbee devices,

51:14SPEAKERyou already have a bunch of wifi devices,

51:15SPEAKERyou already have HomeKit or Google Nest or whatever it is,

51:20SPEAKERhow does this work for you?

51:23SPEAKERAnd I think you're probably still looking at a hub world

51:26SPEAKERfor this, right?

51:27SPEAKERYou're still looking at a home assistant hub

51:29SPEAKERor smart things or something that speaks to everybody

51:31SPEAKERand can kind of connect everything together.

51:33SPEAKERAnd at that point, yes,

51:35SPEAKERmatter is just gonna be the 15th spec

51:38SPEAKERon top of the other 14.

51:43SPEAKERThere's some interoperability problems right now

51:46SPEAKERthat are probably gonna, oh,

51:47SPEAKERand also I think probably in the market

51:49SPEAKERyou're gonna see non-threaded devices linger for years.

51:51SPEAKERYou're gonna see cheap wifi plugs, smart plugs from China,

51:54SPEAKERwhich like, man, I don't know about those

51:57SPEAKER'cause a lot of them aren't UL listed,

51:58SPEAKERwhich seems really scary to me

51:59SPEAKERfor something I can plug 15 amps worth of draw into.

52:01SPEAKER- Yes, that was it.

52:03SPEAKERThat was a big consideration

52:04SPEAKERwhen I was looking for a smart plug

52:05SPEAKERthat I could monitor PC usage through

52:07SPEAKERbecause boy, this thing pulls a lot of watts

52:09SPEAKERwhen I'm, say, playing a game or whatever.

52:11SPEAKER- Yeah, and you don't wanna suddenly start having crashes

52:13SPEAKERbecause your smart plug is not able to cope

52:15SPEAKERwith the 15 watts that comes out of your wall plug,

52:18SPEAKERor 15 amps that comes out of your wall plug.

52:23SPEAKERBut there are a bunch of legitimate devices,

52:26SPEAKERlike I don't wanna replace motion sensors in all my rooms.

52:27SPEAKERHonestly, I don't wanna have motion sensors in my room.

52:30SPEAKERI wanna have UWB things that detect which phone

52:32SPEAKERis in the room and turn on lights based on that stuff,

52:35SPEAKERI think.

52:38SPEAKERI think we're in a place where things

52:40SPEAKERare about to get a lot smarter

52:41SPEAKERin ways that are both really good for usability

52:45SPEAKERand maybe a little scary for privacy-focused stuff.

52:47SPEAKER- Yeah, that was what I was about to say.

52:49SPEAKERWhat does UWB stand for?

52:51SPEAKER- Ultra Wideband.

52:51SPEAKER- Oh, right, right, yes.

52:52SPEAKER- It's the directional radio that is in the newer phones.

52:56SPEAKERI don't personally, I don't love that use case

52:58SPEAKER'cause I don't wanna have to carry,

53:00SPEAKERmake sure my phone is in my pocket,

53:02SPEAKEReven in my own houses every second.

53:05SPEAKER- Do you not have your phone in your pocket all the time?

53:06SPEAKER- No, my phone sits on the coffee table

53:08SPEAKERor the desk most of the time.

53:10SPEAKER- Oh man, I always have my phone in my,

53:11SPEAKERor I have a watch on alternately.

53:12SPEAKER- I was gonna say, if a watch would do it,

53:14SPEAKERI mean, that doesn't help with the privacy stuff as much,

53:16SPEAKERbut at least from a just general practice standpoint,

53:21SPEAKERyou're gonna have a thing on your wrist

53:22SPEAKERmore likely than you are to have a thing in your pocket.

53:24SPEAKER- Well, I was gonna say, the other privacy implication

53:27SPEAKERis that that means now you have to think about

53:29SPEAKERwho you're gonna give access, which companies,

53:31SPEAKERwhich of the faceless multinationals

53:32SPEAKERyou're gonna give access to your private network.

53:35SPEAKERAm I gonna put Amazon on my Matter network?

53:38SPEAKERNo, I'm not gonna buy a Roomba,

53:39SPEAKERI'm not gonna buy an Eero router,

53:42SPEAKERand I'm not gonna buy Ring devices.

53:43SPEAKER- Amazon buy Roomba?

53:44SPEAKER- Amazon bought Roomba the other day.

53:46SPEAKER- Wow, like literally this--

53:47SPEAKER- Like last week or the week before.

53:48SPEAKER- Oh wow, I missed that.

53:49SPEAKER- Yeah, so that means Amazon now presumably has access

53:52SPEAKERto data about the internal layout of your house,

53:54SPEAKERwhich is really creepy, I don't like that.

53:57SPEAKERI'm not gonna give Facebook access to the same information.

53:59SPEAKERI'm hesitant to give Google access

54:00SPEAKERto that information, frankly.

54:02SPEAKERLike I feel like I have a better relationship with Apple

54:08SPEAKERfrom a data privacy standpoint,

54:10SPEAKERbecause they don't have any businesses

54:11SPEAKERthat involve selling my data.

54:13SPEAKER- Right, which I feel like Apple built a whole lot

54:16SPEAKERof public capital with the whole iMessage FBI stuff

54:20SPEAKERa few years ago.

54:21SPEAKERI mean, look, they all buy and spend capital

54:26SPEAKERon that stuff on the reg, but I do,

54:29SPEAKERlike I'm more inclined to give Apple access to that data

54:32SPEAKERthan I am to give one of the other big, big companies.

54:35SPEAKER- Yeah, I'm the same way, but even then I'd rather not.

54:38SPEAKER- Like, but at the same time,

54:39SPEAKERI have a bunch of Google Nest speakers in the house,

54:42SPEAKERand they're really nice for playing music.

54:44SPEAKERI can just say, hey, play me some whatever from Spotify

54:47SPEAKERand it plays.

54:48SPEAKER- Yeah, that's, you know, we, again,

54:50SPEAKERcould listen to that FOSBOT episode.

54:52SPEAKERThat was a major point or a theme of that interview was,

54:55SPEAKERthis is one of the many reasons Home Assistant is cool

54:57SPEAKERis that it gives you a central way to control this stuff

55:01SPEAKERwithout having to send a bunch of data out

55:03SPEAKERto a suspicious cloud of some sort.

55:07SPEAKER- Yeah, exactly.

55:08SPEAKERSo yeah, so the Matter stuff doesn't launch,

55:12SPEAKERoh, I was gonna say the other thing

55:13SPEAKERis there's interoperability problems.

55:15SPEAKER- Yes, yes.

55:16SPEAKER- So it's not final.

55:16SPEAKERIt's gonna keep growing forever, it seems like.

55:18SPEAKERProbably the same thing for Matter.

55:20SPEAKER- And I couldn't find a ton of information

55:22SPEAKERabout devices being upgradable.

55:24SPEAKERI would assume a lot of them are,

55:25SPEAKERor maybe some of them are not.

55:27SPEAKERSo I guess prior to Thread 1.3.0,

55:31SPEAKERdevices were not able to share authentication credentials

55:34SPEAKERbetween each other as part of the spec.

55:36SPEAKER- Manufacturers, right.

55:37SPEAKER- Yes, between, I believe between manufacturers

55:39SPEAKERand I didn't see, again, I didn't see anything

55:42SPEAKERabout being able to upgrade to like, say,

55:43SPEAKERthe Thread version on a device.

55:45SPEAKERMaybe that's vendor specific,

55:46SPEAKERbut the warning in that Verge story was essentially like,

55:48SPEAKERokay, Thread devices before 1.3

55:51SPEAKERmay just not be able to support this ever.

55:54SPEAKER- So one of the reasons I think this stuff is happening now,

55:56SPEAKERand we finally reached a point where it's coming out,

55:58SPEAKERis that the low barrier,

56:02SPEAKERlike the minimum viable spec for this kind of functionality

56:07SPEAKERand the minimum viable hardware that vendors will ship

56:10SPEAKERwhen they're looking to shave a half a cent

56:11SPEAKERoff of the millions of these things that they do,

56:14SPEAKERthose lines crossed each other

56:15SPEAKERsometime in the last couple of years.

56:18SPEAKERAnd I think that my assumption is that

56:22SPEAKERif you support any version of Thread,

56:23SPEAKERat some point you'll see an upgrade

56:25SPEAKERwith the exception of maybe the very, very, very early stuff

56:27SPEAKERthat's out right now.

56:28SPEAKER- Yeah, that's the hope.

56:30SPEAKERI mean, it would be great to not have to get into a situation

56:32SPEAKERwhere you're like digging through minutia

56:34SPEAKERbefore you buy a new thing

56:35SPEAKERto make sure it's got the right version of Thread on it

56:38SPEAKERto do everything.

56:39SPEAKER- Yeah, I would hope that that is not the way

56:41SPEAKERthis ends up breaking down, but look, you never know.

56:44SPEAKER- Yeah, so the upshot though,

56:45SPEAKERis that there are Thread-enabled products on the market now,

56:48SPEAKERlike you said, but Matter, quote, unquote,

56:50SPEAKERthe software part, officially launches this fall.

56:53SPEAKER- Yeah, that's my understanding.

56:55SPEAKERAnd I think like Paula said that Home Assistant

56:59SPEAKERis on track to support Matter.

57:01SPEAKERSo if you have a Home Assistant hub, you'll be in,

57:04SPEAKERlikewise for the existing devices,

57:07SPEAKERthe Apple TV 4K and HomePod minis and stuff like that.

57:13SPEAKERThis gives me a reason to put a HomePod mini in my bedroom,

57:17SPEAKERI think, 'cause that would solve my Zigbee problems.

57:20SPEAKERThe other thing on the Zigbee upgrade path

57:23SPEAKERfor existing devices,

57:24SPEAKERsome vendors are going to upgrade stuff that already is out.

57:27SPEAKERSome vendors are probably going to make you buy new versions

57:30SPEAKERof the same exact hardware to get the Zigbee version,

57:32SPEAKERthe Thread version,

57:34SPEAKEReven though they're functionally identical,

57:36SPEAKERyour mileage may vary based on the vendors

57:38SPEAKERthat you've purchased stuff from in the past.

57:41SPEAKERBut I think we've reached the end of our document, Brad.

57:43SPEAKER- Yeah, I think that's pretty much everything.

57:45SPEAKERThis is exciting.

57:46SPEAKERI'm very excited about,

57:51SPEAKERbetween our conversation with Paul and the reading

57:53SPEAKERthat we did for this,

57:54SPEAKERI'm pretty excited about the potential here.

57:57SPEAKERI hope that everything that we're seeing comes to pass.

58:01SPEAKER- Yes, the promise is great.

58:03SPEAKERLet's say that.

58:04SPEAKERI mean, obviously the rollout of new standards

58:06SPEAKERand platforms is usually messy

58:08SPEAKERand it may not always live up to all the potential,

58:10SPEAKERbut what they are, they're talking a big game.

58:13SPEAKERAnd if they bring that, then this is really cool.

58:17SPEAKER- Well, and the fact that there isn't like one,

58:21SPEAKERyou know, typically if you think back

58:22SPEAKERto like the classic standards awards,

58:23SPEAKERlike HD DVD and Blu-ray,

58:25SPEAKERthere was always one standout,

58:27SPEAKERone holdout like Sony or Phillips,

58:29SPEAKERwhoever was the HDTV holdout.

58:31SPEAKERI guess it was Phillips 'cause Sony's Blu-ray.

58:34SPEAKER- I thought this was part of Blu-ray.

58:36SPEAKERWho was HD DVD, I forget.

58:38SPEAKER- Toshiba maybe?

58:39SPEAKER- That sounds right.

58:41SPEAKER- I had Toshiba and Microsoft maybe

58:42SPEAKERwere the big ones for HD.

58:44SPEAKERAnyway, there's not a hold.

58:45SPEAKERI looked at, I went down the list of the 250 vendors.

58:50SPEAKERIt is a subset of the Zigbee Alliance vendors,

58:52SPEAKERwhich was like, there's like 400

58:54SPEAKERor something Zigbee Alliance vendors.

58:55SPEAKERIt's only 250 on the thread stuff.

58:58SPEAKERBut the upshot is we're looking at,

59:04SPEAKERlike I don't see any big obvious holdouts,

59:06SPEAKERwhich is exciting.

59:07SPEAKERThat's a good thing.

59:10SPEAKERLike the people that do a lot of work in Zigbee

59:12SPEAKERand have all jumped on it seems like,

59:15SPEAKERincluding like the small,

59:16SPEAKERlike the budget vendors that do the small,

59:20SPEAKERthe things you don't think about

59:21SPEAKERthat it turned out to be really important,

59:22SPEAKERlike door sensors and motion sensors and stuff like that.

59:26SPEAKERSo yeah, that's it.

59:28SPEAKERThis is Thread and Matter.

59:32SPEAKERI hope you enjoyed the episode.

59:32SPEAKERIf you have questions, send them in.

59:34SPEAKERWe'll do a question episode at the end of the month.

59:36SPEAKERYou can post in the Question Seeking Answers channel

59:38SPEAKERon the Discord if you're a patron,

59:40SPEAKERor you can send an email to techpod@content.town.

59:44SPEAKEROur, speaking of patrons,

59:48SPEAKERthis is the part of the show where we thank our patrons.

59:50SPEAKER- My favorite part of the show.

59:51SPEAKER- Thank you, patrons.

59:52SPEAKER- Thank you, thank you.

59:54SPEAKER- If you would like to find out

59:55SPEAKERhow to support Brad and Wilme the tech pod,

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59:58SPEAKERyou can go to patreon.com/techpod

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1:00:06SPEAKER- That's right.

1:00:09SPEAKER- We like to thank all of our patrons,

1:00:11SPEAKERbut especially our executive producer tier patrons

1:00:14SPEAKERwho get thanked every single episode

1:00:16SPEAKERunless we mess up and forget,

1:00:17SPEAKERincluding Paddle Creek Games,

1:00:19SPEAKERMakers of Fractured Veil, Andrew Slosky,

1:00:21SPEAKEROctothorpe_bunnykids++, that's a new class if I see one.

1:00:25SPEAKERCongratulations, Bunny Fiend, by the way.

1:00:28SPEAKERThe birth of a new Bunny Fiend happened last week

1:00:32SPEAKERor this week, I can't remember.

1:00:33SPEAKER- Oh, congrats.

1:00:34SPEAKER- Recently.

1:00:35SPEAKERJust Wedge, Joel Krauska, Twinkie at Hacker Summer Camp,

1:00:40SPEAKERand James Cammack, thank you all so much.

1:00:41SPEAKERWe appreciate you and everyone.

1:00:44SPEAKER- Yes.

1:00:45SPEAKER- The benefits of supporting us on the show,

1:00:48SPEAKERyou get access to the fabulous tech pod, Patreon, Discord,

1:00:52SPEAKERwhere there are 3000 really smart nerds in there

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1:01:01SPEAKERyou get access to a special patron exclusive episode.

1:01:06SPEAKERSo that's it.

1:01:07SPEAKER- All correct, I can confirm.

1:01:11SPEAKER- Those are, yeah, 100%.

1:01:13SPEAKERSo yeah, that's the show.

1:01:15SPEAKERAnd if you subscribe to Higher Chairs,

1:01:16SPEAKERwe thank you at different frequencies, it turns out.

1:01:19SPEAKER- Yes.

1:01:21SPEAKER- The executive producer patrons get thanked

1:01:24SPEAKERat the 20,000K frequency.

1:01:27SPEAKER- (laughs) Yes.

1:01:31SPEAKER- Anyway, that'll do it for us.

1:01:33SPEAKERThat was a bad joke, I apologize.

1:01:34SPEAKERWe will see you all next week.

1:01:37SPEAKERBrad, do you have any closing wisdom for the show?

1:01:39SPEAKER- I was sitting here trying to decide

1:01:40SPEAKERif I should bring up, or rather ask,

1:01:43SPEAKERif you knew that the phrase all correct

1:01:45SPEAKERis where the term okay originated from.

1:01:47SPEAKER- Correct starts with a C, Brad.

1:01:49SPEAKER- I know that, that's the whole thing.

1:01:50SPEAKERYou know what, that sounds like-

1:01:51SPEAKER- Did you learn this from TikTok?

1:01:52SPEAKERThis seems like a TikTok fact.

1:01:53SPEAKER- No, no, this dude, this is from like 150 years ago.

1:01:56SPEAKER- TikTok facts are always full of shit.

1:01:58SPEAKER- This sounds like a cold open waiting to happen.

1:02:02SPEAKERWe'll see you next time.

1:02:02SPEAKER- Is this like to come?

1:02:04SPEAKER- No.

1:02:05SPEAKER- Which is abbreviated TK?

1:02:06SPEAKER- It is an old newspaper thing

1:02:07SPEAKERfrom literally the mid 1800s.

1:02:09SPEAKER- That's what TK's dude comes from too.

1:02:11SPEAKER- What?

1:02:12SPEAKER- Well, you put TK's in when you have something

1:02:14SPEAKERthat is a work that has not yet appeared,

1:02:18SPEAKERand it's to come.

1:02:19SPEAKER- Interesting.

1:02:20SPEAKER- T-K-O-M-M-E, I think the German, anyway.

1:02:23SPEAKER- It's some weird thing that some Boston area newspaper did

1:02:25SPEAKERin the 1800s.

1:02:26SPEAKER- Oh, fucking Boston.

1:02:27SPEAKER- We'll get into it another time.

1:02:29SPEAKER- See you all next week.

1:02:30SPEAKERBye everybody.