92: Carmackology

00:00SPEAKERWe were just going to we had a we had a cold open we did do we ever really have a cold open?

00:05SPEAKERNo this isn't the cold open are you sure pretty sure every time we say this isn't the podcast it

00:10SPEAKERturns out to be the podcast fuck what was it i'm putting this in i'm gonna cut it out i have first

00:17SPEAKERcut after five or so rejected cold open topics i said what if we do the cold open about the

00:22SPEAKERdifficulty of coming up with cold open and you said we've done that before we've totally done

00:26SPEAKERthat 100 but what if we did it about a different bad cold opens then you said something about i

00:31SPEAKERwant to talk about my loop oh yeah my loop okay you have to leave all this in now this is i'm just

00:37SPEAKERgoing to start with oh yeah my loop podcast gold brad what one of the things that happens is you

00:42SPEAKERget older as it becomes harder to see things up close don't say that dude don't even let's not

00:47SPEAKEReven i got it what okay well i'm starting to feel really silly about the progressive lenses that i

00:53SPEAKERjust got so i got clip-on loop lenses i think i should have gotten what you are doing right now

00:59SPEAKERinstead you can do both that's the thing is like i was doing some i was doing some fine

01:05SPEAKERdetail soldering a few weeks ago and i couldn't see the little tiny smt components and i was like

01:12SPEAKERand like i don't have readers yet because i've been to the eye doctor since the pandemic that's

01:16SPEAKERcoming up soon uh but uh you know i was like hey i need to uh see something up close so i went on

01:22SPEAKERamazon as one does and i looked and i found like a 20 set of three lenses that clip onto the arm

01:27SPEAKERof your glasses and it's like it's super duper magnifiers and it makes me want to actually spend

01:32SPEAKERmoney and get real like surgeon loops for up close work that's it because the problem with these is

01:39SPEAKERyou have to be pretty close like they work like magnifying glass i want the ones that like surgeons

01:44SPEAKERwear so that they can it's like a telescope on their head but i i'm all about this loop life now

01:49SPEAKERman yeah i think you need to spend a little more time describing what they look like i'm gonna link

01:53SPEAKERthem in the show notes i guess but like they look extremely steampunk it is it is like the look the

02:00SPEAKERsteampunk aspect of this is unfortunate i'm not going to lie not desirable i look i i i got no beef

02:07SPEAKERas with the juggalos and the furries the steampunk people are okay enjoy whatever subculture you

02:13SPEAKERenjoy but you know this doesn't necessarily mean you want to be sporting a victorian monocle these

02:18SPEAKERaren't brass they're like cheap steel so i feel like i'm safe on that front um these uh basically

02:26SPEAKERthere's like an alligator clip on one side and then there's a little springy springy bar uh that

02:31SPEAKERkind of adds tension and then there's three uh i don't know they're like pivots on the on the end

02:38SPEAKERof the bar that you can bring down different levels of magnification into your into your

02:43SPEAKERfield of view and if you line it up right on the glasses then it's exactly in the center of your

02:48SPEAKERfield of view so you can get like pretty good magnification without a whole lot of um without

02:54SPEAKERa whole lot of distortion and stuff on something that's like you know two feet away from your head

02:59SPEAKERprobably yes i mean i was thinking more along the lines of describing them as like a prop from the

03:04SPEAKERleague of extraordinary gentlemen or something yeah it looks like something somebody wore in

03:08SPEAKERthe league of extraordinary yes that's what i was getting at but they're not goggles no not quite

03:13SPEAKERbut did you use the term readers is that is that a term for glasses with progressive lenses because

03:18SPEAKERthat's exactly what i just got i think readers are technically the one things you get at the

03:22SPEAKERdrugstore that are just for reading up close over the counter magnification glasses i see yeah okay

03:26SPEAKERi don't know i i went and burned my every two year eye insurance benefit on a pair of progressive

03:33SPEAKERlenses how's it going i haven't worn them yet oh people are real up in so this is the conversations

03:43SPEAKERyou have when you get older are weird because i had this conversation with some parents the

03:47SPEAKERother day yeah and one of them was like i just went straight for back to normalized bifocals

03:52SPEAKERbecause i couldn't deal with the transition at all yeah it's it's it's disorienting i have not

03:57SPEAKERgotten used to it enough to actually wear them for any long period of time when i when we were

04:01SPEAKERworking in the whiskey basement i got a new pair of glasses one day and they had messed up the

04:06SPEAKERoptical center of the lens on the when they ground them and i didn't realize it until i walked out

04:12SPEAKERand i misjudged where the curb was because like it was my my my vision is bad i have a strong

04:17SPEAKERprescription um but i like my my percept it fucked up my depth perception enough that like i thought

04:26SPEAKERthat the curb was two feet closer to me than it was or something and i stepped down like i was

04:31SPEAKERgoing to step down and i the ground hit my leg beforehand and i completely beefed it and i went

04:35SPEAKERback in and i was like hey can you look at these i think something's not right he's like oh wow

04:39SPEAKERyeah well they really messed these up i'll let me send them back we'll get new ones we'll get

04:42SPEAKERthem tomorrow the next day it's uh it's a lot better than the alternative of the curb ending

04:47SPEAKERbefore you thought it was going to that you may take a header out into the street i look i almost

04:52SPEAKERfell into the street it was it was real close i like it was it's funny because they were fine

04:56SPEAKERinside the store because there were enough other cues that my brain was able to like work out what

05:00SPEAKERwas going on but as soon as i got out into the open it was like full i i don't know it must be

05:05SPEAKERwhat mice feel like when they get stuck in the middle of the room how are you supposed to qa

05:09SPEAKERyour own pair of glasses like how would you know man how do you know that orange is really orange

05:13SPEAKERman okay this is getting too deep for this podcast

05:36SPEAKERso

05:46SPEAKERwelcome to brad and will made a tech pod i'm will i'm brad and i am very excited about this episode

05:52SPEAKERit seems it seems like it's been like 25 years since we spoke last it's been a long week

05:56SPEAKERit really has been quite a hectic uh few weeks behind just behind us here we we both battled

06:04SPEAKERthe electronic three and we have we have triumphed we've prevailed and now it's time to talk about

06:09SPEAKERsomething completely unrelated video games video games e3 is a slumbering dragon that may yet

06:16SPEAKERrare its head again i don't let's say let's do a little tone setting uh e3

06:24SPEAKERwas in atlanta i believe during this era um 97 98 were the two atlanta e3s so okay you know what

06:30SPEAKERyes okay sure 95 95 96 was too wasn't it no 95 96 were in la oh 97 was the first atlanta e3 which

06:38SPEAKERi know because that was when i was about to graduate high school and then instead said

06:42SPEAKERwhat if i drive to atlanta instead of going to my graduation ceremony you're you did your first

06:48SPEAKERbattle with the electronic three instead of going to high school graduation yep it's a good choice

06:53SPEAKERalso i went down there on a lark with a week's notice because somebody i had never met on irc

06:57SPEAKERsaid hey i might have an extra e3 pass if you show up e3 passes were hard to get them they were not

07:02SPEAKEReasy i mean to get look i've i've been an active working member of the technology press and been

07:08SPEAKERdenied an e3 pass before wow no kidding well so this was i guess this was a weird enough

07:13SPEAKERera that there was such a thing as a guest pass quote unquote like you didn't have to have a name

07:17SPEAKERon it like i guess they probably gave them out to vips if i had to guess and it was just like oh

07:22SPEAKERwhoever ends up with one of these probably knows somebody important enough to get in anyway so here

07:25SPEAKERyou go like you took it it was an unnamed pass and you took it to the registration desk and

07:29SPEAKERblah blah blah they gave you the badge yeah also i was 17 and e3 is 18 only e3 is an 18 and up show

07:36SPEAKERand i basically on some level i think i owe my career to the nice old lady behind the

07:43SPEAKERbehind the registration counter who was like are you sure you're old enough to get into the show

07:47SPEAKERand i was like i think so and my yes ma'am yes exactly and my most polite like young southern

07:54SPEAKERsort of demeanor and she and she was like okay here you go and then the rest was history i feel

07:59SPEAKERlike you'd have better luck with that in atlanta than in la absolutely brooke no nonsense wow i

08:06SPEAKERnever even thought about that they probably were hiring local event staff right yeah for that so

08:11SPEAKERyes this yes southern southern charm and manners go a long way wow in that scenario it's funny i

08:20SPEAKERoften think about the people like the the those forks in the road right anyway anyway let's not

08:25SPEAKERlike what are we going to talk about this week brad i don't mean to get so off topic here but

08:29SPEAKERit's not entirely off topic it's on topic i think 1995 was a heck of a year it turns out 96 i know

08:35SPEAKERbut 95 is when everybody was talking oh on june 22nd 1996 something important happened brad sure

08:40SPEAKERdid it certainly did quake came out the quake the quake the one and only there is only one

08:50SPEAKERi mean actually there are like what five five or six of them now i mean in the live there's a live

08:55SPEAKERservice thing depending depending on how you count them but there's really only one yeah there can be

09:00SPEAKERonly one that's the motto of quake yes so yeah quake one of the for me personally and to the

09:08SPEAKERindustry-wide one of the most influential games ever made came out at the time of the posting of

09:14SPEAKERthis podcast we are two days short of the 25th anniversary of the release of quake no no we're

09:19SPEAKERfour days short wait it's the 18th oh at the time of the post yeah time of the posting when the

09:23SPEAKERrecording we're recording yeah well we're recording this on friday anyway yeah i mean

09:27SPEAKERyeah when this when people hear this it'll be just short but um i'm actually not sure

09:33SPEAKERif that just means the reet no that was the shareware release yeah the retail release was

09:37SPEAKERlater the show was out early i don't know that's not right you could buy it immediately on the

09:41SPEAKERshareware because i went to eb and i bought the disc version that wasn't the shareware thing

09:47SPEAKERokay and it just worked interesting okay i i ordered i ordered the retail disc straight from id

09:53SPEAKERso the the the thing that i was thinking about in 1995 was when they released q3 test was when

09:59SPEAKERkarmak released q3 test i think that was 96 actually okay three tests or you're talking

10:03SPEAKERabout q test right that was february 24th 96 we actually just passed that 25th anniversary back

10:10SPEAKERin february wow that was pretty so that is what i forgot to put in the show notes thank you so much

10:15SPEAKERq test no you but you just reminded me the one thing i kept trying to remember that i was going

10:20SPEAKERto put in these show notes it's the it's it's the how how compressed development cycles were back

10:25SPEAKERthen which we will touch we will touch i was going to talk about that yeah well let me just stick

10:29SPEAKERthat in here well so so the thing the thing for for me quake like quake is an important game for

10:35SPEAKERthe industry quake is the reason that i learned about computers yes that is that's what we're

10:39SPEAKERreally here to talk about i think is like quake was quake was the gateway into so many computer

10:45SPEAKERrelated network related like you name it computing technologies quake was like the gateway to all of

10:51SPEAKERthat stuff for for me and probably you it well it kind of started with doom and wolfenstein and and

10:57SPEAKERlike the early the games i played on the three on my 386 like x-wing and ty fighter and xcom and

11:03SPEAKERstuff like that but but quake was the one that like it it it it's really big in my mind partly

11:12SPEAKERbecause it was like it was the multiplayer game for a really long time like like quake was the

11:18SPEAKERfirst multiplayer game i played on the internet for any appreciable length of time and and like

11:24SPEAKERit was it was the game i played until quake 3 came out in like 1999 or 2000 i knew you were a person

11:29SPEAKERof refined taste and distinction look i i think we all dipped into a little bit of half-life dm

11:35SPEAKERuh-huh in 98 right like that was a cool thing well i almost i'm mostly talking about whether you

11:40SPEAKERmade the jump to quake two or not and it sounds like you did not man it's okay we are we are of

11:44SPEAKERthe same mind here i mean look i have nothing against quake two but it's fine it's it's not

11:50SPEAKERquake one 10 hertz input is a real kick in the teeth when you had a machine that could run faster

11:55SPEAKERthan 10 hertz yeah the rail gun was an interesting idea but i love the real gun other than quake 3

12:00SPEAKERother than that not the same anyway um so doom i was a freshman when doom came out when doom

12:07SPEAKERshareware came out freshman in high school in college oh wow i lived in the dorm and my room

12:13SPEAKERdoom one doom one just to just clarify where was released during finals in my first semester in

12:20SPEAKERcollege my roommate worked in the computer lab in the basement and we broke the network the first

12:24SPEAKERnight like everybody else did i love this such a classic doom story like every bank and university

12:29SPEAKERoh my god the country had their had their ipx network go down the night the doom shareware came

12:34SPEAKERout he was afraid he was going to lose his work study it was real bad uh and then like we played

12:38SPEAKERdoom i played doom a lot i played doom all through college the first year or two um duke nukem descent

12:45SPEAKERuh what else rise of the triad a little bit i yeah raise the triad are you talking multiplayer

12:52SPEAKERspecifically or just fps's in general well though these were the games these are the multiplayer

12:55SPEAKERgames like you playing head to head over a modem like you dialed into somebody else's phone number

13:00SPEAKERand they had their computer hooked up and you could you could modem into them but but like the

13:04SPEAKERidea that you could log onto the internet at that time if you wanted to play doom against like eight

13:09SPEAKERpeople you either had to have a lan which we did in the basement of the dorm and we were never

13:14SPEAKERallowed to do that again after the first night or um or you could go like you could pay for

13:20SPEAKERdwango or one of those services that was like you you dialed into a phone number that may or may not

13:24SPEAKERbe long distance and then you could play modem games against like eight other people using some

13:29SPEAKERspecial stuff that they figured out but then quake came out and like it just had multiplayer built

13:35SPEAKERin it didn't work with modems at all really i think that's that's the real yeah that's the

13:41SPEAKERreal story there right because like all the multiplayer in those other games was mostly ipx

13:44SPEAKERbased right uh it was ipx or um yeah it was it was stuff that was like would work inside the

13:51SPEAKERequivalent of a tcpip subnet usually like behind a router okay once you had to cross a router

13:55SPEAKERusually you could usually couldn't connect because there was no way to address spaces on the other

13:58SPEAKERside of that stuff right but but multiplayer that worked over proper stcpip just with the internet

14:02SPEAKERwas like probably the single biggest deal about quake but quake defined dude the biggest thing was

14:07SPEAKER3d you think so the fact that it was so like we're getting out of ourselves if we're gonna start

14:13SPEAKERarguing about what is the most important legacy of the game but i mean but i mean this is this is the

14:17SPEAKERcrux of it why is this this that's why we're talking about the game though yes you're right

14:21SPEAKERyeah it's it's it's important because it was the first like 3d 3d ass 3d games like doom looked

14:27SPEAKERlike it was 3d on a screen but those maps were essentially flat 2d files that that just described

14:33SPEAKERwhere walls went and then the walls were at fixed height and you know like walls and height maps

14:37SPEAKERbasically right or like a height map yeah like it was it was it was how far off the z axis you were

14:43SPEAKERand height map but you couldn't you couldn't do like a hump in doom i believe it used a polar

14:48SPEAKERcoordinate system thank you thank you thank you very much but no but you're right i mean like the

14:51SPEAKERthe practical upshot of that is you cannot have rooms on top of rooms like that was the thing

14:55SPEAKERyeah you could not have proper actual 3d spaces you could just have kind of a

15:00SPEAKERweird 3d ish approximation of a 2d space technically the build engine did that by

15:05SPEAKERalternating splines and the b v z axis but it was mostly trickery and not actual 3d yes so i mean

15:13SPEAKERyeah like generally we are here to talk about quake because it was the first fully 3d game

15:17SPEAKERbecause it was the first game with tcpip multiplayer because it was the first game with like

15:22SPEAKERtrue proper extensible modding support like the list just goes on and on over the phone

15:26SPEAKERthe first metaverse okay i guess that's where we're headed um all right mouse look so no i

15:38SPEAKERi'm very frustrated about this that was plus m look the day that i typed plus and we'll get

15:43SPEAKERwe'll get to this because even even the freaking admin console in the game client was a huge deal

15:48SPEAKERbut the day that i right right but the day that i typed plus m look into quake for the first time

15:52SPEAKERwas a life-changing day all on its own and i assumed that it was the first game with mouse

15:57SPEAKERlook but according to some authorities on the matter it is not but we'll get to that so dark

16:03SPEAKERforces at it man i well okay okay you didn't click my link i see no i left your link your link there

16:10SPEAKERto be surprised thankfully so thankfully this url does not say the name of the game in it so you

16:15SPEAKERwill be properly surprised anyway uh i'd real quick like you got into doom in college like you

16:20SPEAKERhad access to actual networking sounds like you were kind of in it you were sort of in it like i

16:26SPEAKERlike and i played q3 test i feel like we played that but we didn't have the right network cards

16:29SPEAKERunderneath the computers that anybody like nobody i network cards were expensive then yes like a

16:34SPEAKERnetwork card was like two or three hundred bucks in many cases and the ones that quake quake one

16:39SPEAKERtest worked with were really really expensive because it was the shit that id bought to put

16:44SPEAKERinto their computers yeah you know what i downloaded of course i did of course i did this

16:49SPEAKERi was reading the q test readme back in february when we hit that uh 25th anniversary and i think

16:56SPEAKERit literally spells out exactly which network cards they used to develop it on and they're

17:00SPEAKERlike yeah it only works on these or something it only works on this stack because because like

17:03SPEAKERthere was no because it was a dos program it wasn't a windows program it wasn't going through

17:06SPEAKERany kind of there was no there was no layer there was no abstraction layer that was translating hey

17:13SPEAKERthis is the network to your network card driver you had to write it for the driver okay hang on

17:19SPEAKERi'm gonna do one i'm gonna do you one better here okay hit me uh we already went through this

17:23SPEAKERexercise on the discord a few months ago it was back in february but i'll do it here live on the

17:29SPEAKERpodcast as well thanks to the power of my nas and everything the search utility okay that finds

17:35SPEAKEReverything instantly yeah i am not just reading the readme of q test i am reading the readme from

17:40SPEAKERthe zip file of q test that i downloaded in 1996 jesus christ brad that has that has made the leap

17:46SPEAKERacross hard drive after hard drive over eons i mean my eyes are closed this this this q test

17:55SPEAKERreadme has crossed oceans of time to appear on this podcast um it's kind of incredible actually

18:02SPEAKERit is i mean like i don't want to get too mushy or sentimental about it but at the end of the

18:07SPEAKERday it is very emotionally affecting see that i'm like literally sitting here reading a text

18:12SPEAKERfile that i downloaded while i was in high school and i am now over 40 so here's here's the thing

18:16SPEAKERthough like i have the hard drive that that's on in the in the garage probably yeah but like i can't

18:23SPEAKERimagine what how i would even begin to organize that anyway that's that's what's so great about

18:29SPEAKEReverything if people go to voi what is it void tools have we talked about this no but but we

18:34SPEAKERshould say this is a this is a we should talk about this later is this material this is a this

18:40SPEAKERis a podcast i want to know more am i burning podcasts here burning pod we are so off topic

18:44SPEAKERhere i am sorry um oh gosh i'm trying to find i thought you found it where's your everything

18:51SPEAKERit's no i'm reading the readme it's just a long it's a long readme uh it really was there's a lot

18:57SPEAKERhere i remember when this came out i immediately got annoyed with two other friends who did not

19:02SPEAKERread the readme before they called and were like hey i can't get this to work i was like did you

19:05SPEAKERread the readme yeah i read the readme i was like it took me 10 minutes to read the readme man you

19:10SPEAKERcould not have read the readme this fast yes like i i searched for words like stack and card could

19:15SPEAKERnot come up with the the card vendor started with a b i believe yes it totally did it was like

19:21SPEAKERi i know exactly what you were talking about search for ipx that even white side i found it

19:28SPEAKERa control left an ampersand that i found it at this time there are only two network protocols

19:33SPEAKERthat quake understands these are ipx and tcpip the only tcpip packets that quake understands

19:40SPEAKERis bw uh bwnfs from beam and white side this is not a shareware product like that is the tcpip

19:48SPEAKERstack they were using internally so that was the only thing you can play q test on anyway i'm

19:52SPEAKERsorry no no it's fine i'm way off topic here all i wanted to say was um i came to doom in 94 i

19:59SPEAKERthink i made it i may have told the story before i apologize if so but we got our first family

20:04SPEAKERcomputer in 94 and i went into a babbages later in 94 with only a few dollars to spend uh-huh

20:11SPEAKERlet's say like 10 or so and i found a boxed shareware copy of doom like the doom shareware

20:16SPEAKERfor like seven bucks in a box that's kind of a rip-off but also better than trying to download it

20:23SPEAKERwell i didn't have a modem at that time but that was before we did we did not get a modem with the

20:26SPEAKERcomputer i looked at the back of the box and i saw you know what a doom screenshot looks like with

20:31SPEAKERthe gun yeah and i assumed it was some kind of duck hunt style shooting gallery with just like

20:36SPEAKERtargets flying across the screen but i was just gonna aim and shoot the you bought it based on the

20:41SPEAKERpicture i'd never heard of it how the hell did i know what doom was there was no and there was

20:45SPEAKERno conduit of information into my house that would tell me about doom oh my god i wasn't buying

20:50SPEAKERcomputer magazines at the time anyway the point is like the idea that you could walk anywhere in

20:54SPEAKERfirst person in a video game seemed impossible it seemed like illegal to me so when i took that

21:00SPEAKERthing home and installed it and found out what that game actually was it was like almost actually

21:05SPEAKERfell out of my chair i was just like what do you mean you could walk anywhere in this environment

21:09SPEAKERand i see it from the perspective i would see it from if i was there like what it was that alone

21:15SPEAKERwas life-changing anyway so we both we both had significant reasons to very highly anticipate

21:22SPEAKERquake well so i found out about doom because the guy who was who the one person on the floor who

21:26SPEAKERbought wolfenstein instead of pirating it in my freshman dorm got a got a a postcard i think from

21:34SPEAKERthem that was like hey check out our new game doom coming this december uh it'll be on blah blah

21:40SPEAKERblah whatever your ftp side of choice is and um when when it finally came out he came running down

21:48SPEAKERthe hallway with three floppies and was like you got to try this right now it's amazing and then

21:52SPEAKERi put my 386 and didn't run at all so anyway not even in a postage stamp size window i was able to

21:57SPEAKERrun it eventually in a postage champ side window in windows 3.1 using 386 387 uh emulator mode okay

22:06SPEAKERin windows at like three frames a second it was not a great experience nice anyway so okay yeah

22:11SPEAKERso quick quake comes out that brings us to yeah the last thing i wanted to say before we get to

22:16SPEAKERthis or maybe we'll talk about this more in line but just how fast they were pumping these games

22:19SPEAKERout back then oh yeah two years was a long time it's crazy to look at these look at these dates

22:24SPEAKERdoom came out in december 93 yeah quake came out in june 96 so that's two and a half years later

22:31SPEAKERand they came out between those right and and they made doom 2 in the middle of that they made

22:35SPEAKERbetween doom between doom 1 came coming out they made doom 2 and quake in two and a half years

22:40SPEAKERso so the thing that the thing about doom 2 though is that it was basically the same engine with a

22:45SPEAKERcouple of new monsters yeah it was not so much on the engineering side yeah while the engineers

22:49SPEAKERwere working on the new engine right but still we're just jamming out levels and then like quake

22:53SPEAKER2 came out 18 months after quake 1 you know but the weird thing about quake though is the game

22:57SPEAKERtook so long to come out and there was such a like people don't people probably don't understand this

23:02SPEAKERnow but then like if you had a year that had three first-person shooters come out it was a pretty big

23:07SPEAKERyear from like 93 until 2000 you could like count them on one hand i mean at first it was just

23:13SPEAKERwolfenstein and then the handful of games that used the wolfenstein engine right like blake stone

23:19SPEAKERwell and commander keen well commander keen was before wolfenstein i guess but like

23:23SPEAKERthat was a platformer there was a 3d commander keen too was there there was one that used the

23:28SPEAKERwolfenstein engine i believe weird um and then and then like all the build engine games started

23:34SPEAKERcoming out and they were cranking those out like one a year two a year sometimes eventually yeah

23:38SPEAKERand then we started seeing the kind of first doom clones and stuff like dark forces and duke 3d

23:43SPEAKERand heretic and heretic heretic ran on the doom engine and hexen um those games like yeah like

23:50SPEAKERyou said the build engine games and like dark forces that lucas art's engine like we're starting

23:55SPEAKERto get some of the things that quake would have like looking up and down but not really but not

24:00SPEAKERreally but they still were they still had that inherent limitation of being just a big 2d field

24:04SPEAKERat different heights right as opposed to a real 3d space like like so it's gonna be hard to paint

24:09SPEAKERa word picture here but when you looked up and down in a build engine game which you could do

24:12SPEAKERthen it didn't you you didn't it wasn't perspective correct no you just saw it was like you were

24:17SPEAKERstanding in front of a really tall billboard and when you looked up it would just be like it was

24:21SPEAKERstretched you looking at the billboard it was stretched it was really weird it looked a little

24:25SPEAKERodd but it did work yeah kind of it was hard to shoot stuff that was higher than you because the

24:29SPEAKERperspective was warped in the crosshair was anyway also nobody again nobody used mouse look like

24:33SPEAKERmostly mostly looking up and down in those games was on page up and page down which not the most

24:40SPEAKERaccessible control scheme well i think at that point i was still like when quake came out

24:45SPEAKERi switched to mouse look immediately but i used control alt space and shift for a long time and

24:51SPEAKERi don't remember i think control was how you shot i don't remember maybe you shot with space because

24:56SPEAKERyou couldn't jump i guess i don't know man i played first person shooters on a gravis game

25:00SPEAKERpad before quake came out so i cannot tell you wow also we should we should compare quake control

25:06SPEAKERschemes later because i had a weird one i was esdf with all my hot well i played competitive so i had

25:12SPEAKERall my like where i am hotkeys on q uh no direct weapon shortcuts on q a and z how do you define

25:18SPEAKERcompetitive i played in uh like even nighttime scrub leagues that were organized we did scrims

25:23SPEAKERand tournaments and stuff if they were organized that was more than i did which like i did my the

25:29SPEAKERoccasional pub stomping was about as far as i went but i did quite a bit of that okay so the game

25:36SPEAKERcomes out it hardly you basically needed a pentium to run it as i would have kind of ran on a 486 with

25:43SPEAKERthe if you had a mathco processor um but it used a software renderer uh this was before 3d

25:50SPEAKERaccelerators yes also so like there was no accelerated texture rendering there was no

25:55SPEAKERmip mapping there were no there was no filtering um and it used the accelerated software uh

26:02SPEAKERrenderer that was written in assembler by we didn't put this in the notes what are you looking

26:07SPEAKERfor a name i was looking for a name michael you're not thinking about michael abrash i'm thinking

26:11SPEAKERabout michael abrash that's exactly this i can i can dude i can just spit quake facts out all

26:16SPEAKERday i promise you i immediately blanked i like if you'd asked he's been at oculus for a long time

26:21SPEAKERnow but um like even back then i remember when they brought him on back then and this is another

26:25SPEAKERtopic to get into was like you know all the the communication they did through plan files and

26:28SPEAKERgiving insight into development that you didn't get any other way but i remember i remember when

26:33SPEAKERthey brought abrash on back then they talked about like karmak talked about him like he was

26:37SPEAKERsome kind of x86 assembly wizard he was like a legend in he was he was like a legend in machine

26:42SPEAKERcode land he he wrote the nt kernel did he yes oh i didn't know that that's wild was he he was a

26:48SPEAKERmicrosoft guy he was a microsoft okay i probably probably knew that microsoft and pulled him out

26:53SPEAKERhe was like you should come do this thing that's incredible yeah um uh so so okay but but but the

26:59SPEAKERthing that we like the thing that was amazing about the time between doom and quake is people

27:02SPEAKERwere so voracious for more news about these first person shooters that these sites grew up out of

27:09SPEAKERnowhere basically like like like a dude would post on his university shell space like the latest

27:17SPEAKERquake news about his next game and they post like doom mods and stuff like that and that's where

27:23SPEAKERsites like blues news and and uh uh scaries quake holio yeah scary it was yeah scare scaries quake

27:29SPEAKERholio then became the sugar shack and is now shack shack news yeah um steve has moved on

27:35SPEAKERlong ago uh redwood red red stomp stomp stomping stomping ground stomped stomped was for redwood

27:41SPEAKERthere's a voodoo extreme the food extreme was later but yeah i guess yeah i guess right there

27:46SPEAKERwere a bunch of those but but yeah like if for a while and like this was before there were sites

27:52SPEAKERlike game spot games game spot and ign and yeah and like there it was kind of before like this was

28:00SPEAKERthe first time the internet was useful for me basically yeah it was kind of all happening at

28:04SPEAKERonce like game spot did launch in 96 but like you know the game spots and igns were generalist sites

28:10SPEAKERright where these were just fan-run like community-driven sites yeah built by people who just

28:15SPEAKERfucking lived and breathed this one game right and and like they were writing writing webs like

28:21SPEAKERblues news started out writing in notepad like he would he updated the page he would upload a

28:25SPEAKERuh html file from notepad to his to his heart to his server someplace oh that's so heartwarming

28:31SPEAKERand like like i mean i guess at that point i'd probably emailed like my cs homework to my cs

28:38SPEAKERprofessor but probably like literally looking up news about quake mods and quake and doom mods was

28:45SPEAKERprobably the first thing i did that was like that like the internet impacted my life in a meaningful

28:49SPEAKERway where it was like up to the minute right like every day it was changing and you were actually

28:53SPEAKERlearning about things that way yeah like i learned how 3d renderers in the 90s worked i learned why

28:57SPEAKERpeople were excited about three about 3d accelerators i learned about like like that sgi

29:03SPEAKERand next machines and sunboxes and stuff were existed this is such a like 800 tangents could

29:08SPEAKERproceed from this one episode but yeah like my fascination with with like like next and next step

29:14SPEAKERand sgi workstations like all of that comes out of the quake development because like

29:18SPEAKERdoom and quake were were built on next boxes they like they developed them on next workstations

29:23SPEAKERwell and you would look at you would look at like

29:28SPEAKERso there was a there was a kind of a filter for this it started with like plan files and

29:32SPEAKERoccasionally like the these it was a weird time because these developers were like doom the people

29:39SPEAKERwho worked at id during the doom time made an unbelievable amount of money because they had

29:43SPEAKERprofit sharing and no one had ever made like that nobody had ever had a video game that was that

29:48SPEAKERkind of a hit before totally like i've been so i didn't even plan it this way but i've been reading

29:53SPEAKERold plan files from that era just for fun over the last month and this is why we're friends brad i

29:58SPEAKERknow well there's the ultimate example of why we do this podcast together is coming up shortly which

30:03SPEAKERi'm pretty excited about but um but they're like there's a quote in one of those where karmak very

30:08SPEAKERcasually talks about like yeah i bought my first ferrari from off of wolfenstein yeah like a second

30:12SPEAKERferrari off of doom like they were they're making huge amounts of money right from the beginning

30:17SPEAKERright from right from wolfenstein but but they were also like it all along they were it's not

30:22SPEAKERlike they had publicists and shit like i mean they probably did at that point but they were

30:25SPEAKERthey were they were still enormous nerds and they were working like crunching constantly to make

30:31SPEAKERvideo games and it was like 27 27 to 30 year old 25 to 30 year olds who kind of seemingly didn't

30:38SPEAKERknow much about what they were doing except for how to make the games was what it looked like on

30:42SPEAKERthe outside and it was like it was a scene yeah totally like there was this thing that happened

30:47SPEAKERin texas and and after quake it kind of expanded and and you know places like raven up and up and

30:53SPEAKERup in the north in wisconsin yeah yeah in wisconsin and and um like valve in seattle ritual uh uh

31:02SPEAKERgearbox um uh i can't remember what the place the human head spun out of and but but but like these

31:10SPEAKERthese little groups of people who'd previously been making like shareware games and stuff like

31:14SPEAKERthat suddenly had figured out this new genre that was the hottest thing in the world and quake mods

31:19SPEAKERand yeah and and they started making mods for doom and that those people who made doom

31:23SPEAKERdoom mods ended up making studios that made right quake engine gas yes like i think like

31:28SPEAKERrandy pitchford was a like well-known quake modder before he went and started gearbox right yeah

31:32SPEAKERa bunch of and i think also up close magician was the thing he was doing to make like he he

31:38SPEAKERhe used to tell a story about how he flipped gears because he thought he was going to be a magician

31:42SPEAKERand then he started making doom mods and then he was like oh there's doom mod things seems like it

31:46SPEAKERmight work out yeah so then he stopped anyway yes there's other all those studios sprang up out of

31:51SPEAKERthat stuff but um should we talk about the game well well there's a lot to cover here but i i just

31:58SPEAKERwant to like what the last thing is that like the plan file which is which is literally we're gonna

32:04SPEAKERhave somebody on to talk about plan files in coming weeks because i think it's really interesting

32:07SPEAKERyeah um it was a place that you could update like it was like a pre twitter twitter you just update

32:12SPEAKERwhat you're working on and you could run finger on any unix machine and it would send you what

32:17SPEAKERtheir most recent that person's email addresses most recent plan update was so like most of the

32:22SPEAKERunderpinnings of unix it actually came about uh to be used in like a research facility right like

32:27SPEAKERin a in an either a corporate or academic setting of like oh there's a bunch of people time sharing

32:31SPEAKERon this mainframe and they all need to be able to see what each other is working on and and share

32:36SPEAKERtime computing time and stuff like that so like there's basically a way to like you know quote

32:40SPEAKERunquote finger somebody else's account and see what they had put in their plan file to get a

32:44SPEAKERsense of like what they were working on or what their schedule was or whatever and yeah the id

32:48SPEAKERpeople started using that from across the internet and like like like everything else we're talking

32:53SPEAKERabout here that was probably my first real exposure to the concept of unix because what they

32:57SPEAKERwere using to distribute these plan files was straight out of that world right so i was i had

33:02SPEAKERunix before because i had i did i took cs classes so i could get a unix shell account instead of a

33:07SPEAKERvax shell account at ut um that's one way to do it yeah well and but but like yeah those plan

33:17SPEAKERfiles were another were another source of data like like karmak and tom hall and all those guys

33:22SPEAKERat all these different studios would post what they were working on to their plan updates and

33:26SPEAKERthey'd kind of like they weren't making games in public in the way that people do like that like

33:30SPEAKERyou know people do now when they're streaming game dev but it was very much like hey you could get a

33:36SPEAKERglimpse of what was coming by figuring like karmak would talk about 3d accelerators being interesting

33:41SPEAKERand then talk about standing in the shower and watching refractive patterns come across

33:45SPEAKERthe screen through the water in the shower something like that be like there's no way we can

33:50SPEAKERreplicate this with we won't be able to replicate this for at least 20 years and and it gave you a

33:56SPEAKERglimpse of what they were thinking about which gave you an idea of what they were doing and then

33:58SPEAKERthere was this whole kind of world of karmak whispering it's almost like it's like what what

34:05SPEAKERis they call it kremlin ology when you when you read the what what the official kremlin releases

34:10SPEAKERare to figure out what's actually going on sure it's the same thing we had karmak ology back then

34:15SPEAKERsure i guess that's fair but the game was pretty good too which were yes yes i mean the plan files

34:21SPEAKERlike they were they were a level of insight into the development process as it was happening that

34:26SPEAKERi feel like you really haven't seen before or since really because partially because everything

34:31SPEAKERwas so grassroots back then there were no off-the-shelf engines there was nothing to license

34:35SPEAKERlike all of this stuff was being built completely from nothing and so it was like you know ground

34:40SPEAKERbeing broken every single day that they were doing this stuff that's a big part of why it was so

34:44SPEAKERexciting that's yeah that's true and the other reason i say that it hasn't really happened again

34:48SPEAKERsince then is like you said these were a bunch of 25 year old nerds with nobody watching them

34:53SPEAKERtelling them what to do like everything has to go through media approval these days media training

34:57SPEAKERyou know eight levels of people signing off on stuff there's like pr plans to follow like this

35:03SPEAKERwas like raw and unvarnished in a way that you don't see that often you do see it from some indie

35:07SPEAKERdevelopers like indie developers who are their own bosses these days can still get away with saying

35:12SPEAKERwhatever they want but like coming out of big studios like this the message is always just so

35:16SPEAKERkind of massaged before it gets out there now well and also like it was in a time before people

35:22SPEAKERrealized that this was an actual business yeah that's that's another big part of it for sure

35:26SPEAKERlike yeah like at that point at that point like people were like oh yeah the nintendo nintendo

35:33SPEAKERmakes money sega makes money maybe sony makes money it seems like that's going well for him

35:37SPEAKERso far but like the pc people were kind of viewed as like weird weird video game perverts in a lot

35:44SPEAKERof ways so yeah it was it was it was interesting and like and they and they weren't putting out

35:51SPEAKERpolished stuff it was like sometimes it was sometimes like you'd read a plan file and i'd

35:55SPEAKERbe like well i'm gonna go after read look up stuff on usenet for two hours to understand what the

35:59SPEAKERfuck's going on here and and then you'd get to the bottom of like three scholarly research papers

36:03SPEAKERabout 3d rendering you'd be like okay this makes sense now he's fuck he's posted another update i

36:08SPEAKERgotta go more research yeah sure um but the game was pretty good yeah i mean it wasn't quite what

36:14SPEAKERthey pitched it as early on necessarily like there was all that weird early talk about like

36:19SPEAKERoh you're gonna have the hammer of thor in it and it's gonna be some kind of weird quasi rpg

36:23SPEAKERand they're gonna be dragons and they publish screenshots of dragons i don't know if you

36:26SPEAKERremember those oh yeah like they put out dragon ended up being that weird wavy monster in like

36:31SPEAKERthe third act that got shrunk down it's it's just the wings i think is it in there somehow okay i

36:35SPEAKERfeel like maybe it is maybe not early on they were describing it very much as some kind of medieval

36:39SPEAKERgame they wanted to make an rpg it sounds like yes like i remember like tom hall had a lot more

36:43SPEAKERnarrative ambitions around there than the rest of them seem to because they always talked about

36:47SPEAKERputting story into their games all the story ended up getting cut out by the time they shipped

36:52SPEAKERwell or then romero would be or adrian karmak or somebody would say in an interview that yeah

36:57SPEAKERwe do we make the whole game and we make the game fun and then like at the last little bit we figure

37:00SPEAKERout what the story is and jam it in there right right um you know there was they pitched they

37:05SPEAKERpitched a big game for quake that didn't really come together and the actual shipping game

37:10SPEAKERlike visually and sort of thematically is kind of a giant mess it's like it's this weird mishmash of

37:15SPEAKERlike sort of dirty looking future with all these portals and there's some lovecraft in there and

37:21SPEAKERlike it just it's not very coherent it wait it almost it's funny i was talking about this with

37:25SPEAKERa friend the other night but it seemed like like when i loaded it up so it had a hub world which

37:30SPEAKERwas kind of new at that point like you just walked into this lobby and then you went through doors to

37:35SPEAKERgo to the different worlds very in retrospect like a very nice easy way to make a shareware

37:40SPEAKERgame where you can just bolt more episodes onto that hub yeah but but the thing was like each

37:46SPEAKERworld had a very distinct art style and it almost seemed like they had four level designers and they

37:52SPEAKERnever talked about what they were making once or maybe they built four different games and each

37:57SPEAKERgame had its own unique theme and they're like well shit this none of these is enough on its own

38:02SPEAKERlet's just put them all in here and you know call it quake i don't know yeah even even back then

38:06SPEAKERthey were not shy later on about talking about what a kind of difficult mess that development

38:10SPEAKERcycle was well i mean yeah there's a pc gamer article there's there's a couple of them there's

38:15SPEAKERone that's prior to quake 2 that you dug up and i guess we'll put these in show notes someplace

38:22SPEAKERbut there's also one that gary wrote around the time the game went was like released gary went a

38:28SPEAKERfriend of the pod um that's that's just like they're just heart it's heartbreaking kind of

38:35SPEAKERbecause like they're like yeah you know we just everybody's pretty humble about the game and then

38:43SPEAKERthey just they everybody even even when they're being humble about the game is talking shit about

38:47SPEAKEReverybody else in the industry in a way that nobody does anymore right just fascinating yeah and then

38:52SPEAKERand then you know of course infamously a month after the game released they fired john romero

38:56SPEAKERone of the founders of the company yeah uh which there was that whole drama the original scene

39:00SPEAKERdrama he might say the next pc gamer interview karmak talked about firing romero and putting

39:04SPEAKERhim on a performance plan yeah after he was a customer it was like so right right because

39:10SPEAKERion storm which romero went to found was licensing the great technology at that time after they fired

39:15SPEAKERhim and then here's karmak in this magazine talking about like yeah we cut his bonuses

39:19SPEAKERand then we fired him well but at the same time like this whole thing was was like this was also

39:25SPEAKERbeing covered on all those sites right like this was all this scene drama was happening all the

39:30SPEAKERtime in the background of oh by the way that these new games are coming anyway so okay things that

39:35SPEAKERquake did that i hadn't seen before and you had that i don't think any of us had seen before yeah

39:39SPEAKERtotally the 3d environments was huge uh 3d character models was that the first game that used

39:45SPEAKER3d character models it's definitely the first one i saw because i remember spending like inordinate

39:50SPEAKERamounts of time looking at dead enemies and going like oh my god i can see it from every side it's

39:54SPEAKERnot it's not just the same bitmap from every angle so it's definitely the first first person shooter

39:59SPEAKERthat used 3d character models that i played okay there were other games that used like hyperblade

40:04SPEAKERused 3d or not hyperblade but like descent descent did i'm pretty sure descent was way after this

40:09SPEAKERthough was it descent was after oh huh let me that's a good question there were definitely

40:16SPEAKERgames that used 3d models before like tie fighter used 3d models sure but in a in a kind of like

40:22SPEAKERhuman or person-based first-person shooter like a person running around on the ground shooting

40:27SPEAKERother people in a first-person shooter world it was unless unless there was like marathon or

40:32SPEAKERsomething came out before and had 3d models which i didn't know because i didn't have a mac

40:37SPEAKERi it's my understanding it was the first 3d character models it was the first thing that

40:41SPEAKERhad internet multiplayer that i played that was like native and was a first-person shooter

40:46SPEAKERthe client-side prediction also came later yeah so that didn't ship with the game like that's

40:51SPEAKERanother whole fun little subplot of this thing really and it's another example of how fast this

40:56SPEAKERstuff was happening uh quake came out it played like shit over modems like super duper shit if

41:02SPEAKERpeople don't remember i mean like you'd have no idea what it felt like to play quake with a three

41:06SPEAKERor 400 ping without like shipping out of the box because they had only tested it on local networks

41:13SPEAKERand karmak karmak literally says in one of those in like the first plan update after the game came

41:17SPEAKERout when he acknowledges they screwed like he literally says we screwed up i have a t1 to my

41:22SPEAKERhouse i didn't realize how bad it would be 1.5 megabits maybe right like it's just it's hilarious

41:27SPEAKERthey just didn't account for like what normal people's dial-up internet connections were like

41:30SPEAKERat the time but so i mean that's funny though like a the pain the picture we're painting is

41:36SPEAKERa real bad launch kinda yeah it's like the 3d character models the thing we didn't talk about

41:41SPEAKERwith that is like doom was famous for having dozens or hundreds of enemies on screen at any

41:47SPEAKERgiven time yeah and in quake you had like three maybe four sure so it was a little thin the

41:53SPEAKERperformance did not scale very well especially well especially like if you didn't turn on the

41:57SPEAKERmouse look thing which you had to do a console command to turn on like being able to look up

42:01SPEAKERand down you would have probably not even noticed yes i mean i didn't think of the mouse as a video

42:06SPEAKERgame controller at that time like it never occurred to me to use mouse look until i read about it

42:10SPEAKERsomewhere on like i don't know stomp at one of those sites where they said to try it like i

42:15SPEAKERdidn't i didn't even try looking up and down with the mouse because it didn't occur to me that that's

42:18SPEAKERsomething you could do um but anyway like what i was gonna say is like like he acknowledges like

42:23SPEAKERalmost instantly after the game came out that the online multiplayer is terrible for anybody who's

42:28SPEAKERnot him but then like a month after that he is laying out the plan for quake world with the

42:33SPEAKERclient-side prediction model and like all this stuff and it's like it's another six months of

42:37SPEAKERupdates and like refinement after that to get it where it ended up but like it ended up releasing

42:42SPEAKERin december i think right i think that that's around the end of the year i believe i feel like

42:46SPEAKERi downloaded my parents office um but that that tightened up the network connection and did a lot

42:51SPEAKERof the stuff on the client side that had previously been happening on the server and like i assume

42:55SPEAKERi'm no network engineer i'm sure there are like a zillion no games network programmers out there

43:00SPEAKERwho could talk intelligently about this stuff or correct us but like i assume that basic model has

43:05SPEAKERtrickled down through the years well it's changed pretty dramatically i'm sure there is a ton of

43:11SPEAKERnuances to it like they added smoothing and all sorts of other stuff to it but that but that basic

43:15SPEAKERidea of keeping as much local on the game client as you can without having to send it back and

43:19SPEAKERforth i assume was kind of a big deal it was great until people realized you could use it to cheat

43:25SPEAKERand then things started moving well the other thing that happened over the last 20 years is

43:28SPEAKERthat the cost of compute online has gone way down so like like you wouldn't have that client-side

43:35SPEAKERprediction on the servers at the time because they were like penny in 100s or something like that

43:38SPEAKERright now it's a little bit different yeah also connections way faster latency much lower

43:43SPEAKERyeah a lot has changed but but like i remember downloading quake world at my dad's office

43:47SPEAKERon christmas break that year and like logging in to play multiplayer game multiplayer game of quake

43:55SPEAKERon the internet and it worked like it did on the land at school yeah it felt amazing like it was

43:59SPEAKERnight and day it was really incredible you could like even with a 250 ping on a modem you could

44:04SPEAKERplay pretty reliably um and and i i did for years like i played i i think i had isdn at the time

44:10SPEAKERbecause isdn in tennessee was cheap for inexplicable reasons i'm so jealous i was so

44:16SPEAKERjealous of people that i isdn back then 64 kilobits per channel you get two channels bonded and go to

44:21SPEAKER128 just to put it in perspective for people who never experienced this like if you had a 300 ping

44:26SPEAKERon original quake online if you press the key to move forward you were waiting a third of a second

44:31SPEAKERto see yourself move forward like like that latency was was was stiff and in your face

44:36SPEAKERyeah like there was nothing there was nothing papering that over so so the the big thing the

44:41SPEAKERthing here that we didn't talk about in the multiplayer thing is quake used client server

44:45SPEAKERand previously doom and and other multiplayer games had like a had some sort of weird everybody

44:52SPEAKERhas to agree or else nothing works mode so if anything got out of sync the game would just stop

44:57SPEAKERright so like if your latency was too bad that's why duengo was really neat is because you could

45:01SPEAKERdial in everybody had the same latency because you're on the same modem and and like the you

45:06SPEAKERdidn't fall out of sync like you would on say with a modem person trying to play doom with a

45:11SPEAKERwith a LAN person right so well what you're saying here is a single client could go belly up and not

45:17SPEAKERaffect the rest of the game for everybody right well yeah join and drop it midway through the game

45:21SPEAKERtoo yes like that that was all even pretty pretty revelatory back then like i i remember i remember

45:27SPEAKERgetting on like a quake rocket arena server and people would just come in and out and the rocket

45:32SPEAKERarena server would run for hours and hours and hours before the cron job restarted it you know

45:36SPEAKERonce a day or whatever it needed to be done uh the mods were a big deal yeah too like doom had

45:44SPEAKERyou know basic map making tools you could put out maps and like there were total conversions you

45:48SPEAKERknow that would replace textures and enemy sprites and stuff like that but quake you know had its own

45:57SPEAKERhad its own programming language essentially like quake shipped with quake c which is what

46:01SPEAKERpeople developed the mods in and it was like a full-on like i mean this wikipedia page literally

46:06SPEAKERdescribes it as a compiled language yeah you could you could write new behaviors for almost everything

46:11SPEAKERin the game right which was which would like doom in order to do that in doom you had to do some

46:15SPEAKERreal jump through some real hoops probably understand probably reverse it or not reverse

46:19SPEAKERengineer but i don't i don't i don't know i bought a book hex editing the executable or something like

46:24SPEAKERthat look there yeah there was dark magic right to say dark magic but the point is that you know

46:29SPEAKERthey planned right from the beginning to let people like literally program mods for for the

46:33SPEAKERgame and that's what brought about stuff like capture the flag which was like i don't know how

46:36SPEAKERmuch ctf you played back then but none really i didn't like capture the flag are you serious

46:41SPEAKERi hated the grappling hook holy shit i love the grappling hook i know it's like i was i went the

46:46SPEAKERother path i played rocket arena and clan arena okay well that was a little bit later but the

46:51SPEAKERbigger thing is like it didn't ship with any modes there were no objective based modes in quake it

46:55SPEAKERwas just deathmatch like i guess there was team deathmatch i think there was team deathmatch but

47:00SPEAKERimagine team deathmatch the true true game modes yes basically yes yes like don't get me wrong

47:06SPEAKERdeathmatch and that rocket launcher kind of all you need but like when ctf came about and it was

47:11SPEAKERit literally introduced to me at least the idea of teamwork in a game like that because i've

47:15SPEAKERnever seen an objective-based mode like that before and it was like holy shit i'm grappling

47:20SPEAKERup onto the ceiling now i'm defending this goal while my other teammates are flanking and trying

47:24SPEAKERto get this thing across the line like like even that stuff and that entirely came out of the

47:29SPEAKERcommunity and the you know the mod tools that they built into the game like that stuff emerging from

47:34SPEAKERthe community was so mind-blowing all the time my entire recollection like it's funny my whole

47:40SPEAKERexperience with ctf is soured because it broke up my regular quake group because one guy got really

47:45SPEAKERinto ctf and the rest of us didn't care about it sure so i could so like i yeah but but we were

47:52SPEAKERplaying at that point like we had a friend who ran the one of the linux labs at ut and we would just

47:58SPEAKERgo after that for lab hours and play quake up there and it was it was incredible and we haven't

48:02SPEAKEReven talked about gl quake yet no we haven't gotten there um multi-skinned real quick i just

48:07SPEAKERwanted to mention yeah multi-skin was one of the very first mods that came out like i think a month

48:12SPEAKERor two after quake shipped i don't know what this is it's the first skin pack like it was a skin pack

48:17SPEAKERi've got it open right here like you can find on fandom quake.fandom.com you can look up multi-skin

48:23SPEAKERand they've actually got the textures for all of the original multi-skin skins wow this was like

48:28SPEAKERbarney the dinosaur and c3po and no it was much more like teenage edgelord type stuff as you might

48:35SPEAKERimagine i just sent it to you i don't know if you wanna pull it up here but i can i can tell you it

48:40SPEAKERfeatured such skins as duke nukem a stormtrooper the terminator judge dread i remember these the

48:47SPEAKERpredator he-man boba fett and henry rollins one thing that this they'd probably so a lot of the

48:56SPEAKERa lot of the disappointment in this game came from romero going on irc and talking about what

49:01SPEAKERwas going to be in it like portals between servers and stuff like that oh i remember that i totally

49:06SPEAKERdude i hadn't thought about the portals between servers thing so long he had he had promised um

49:11SPEAKERhe had promised i feel like he promised that each character each weapon would have a distinct model

49:16SPEAKERin the hands of the characters you'd be able to see what weapon your enemy had i don't think that

49:21SPEAKERended up coming to play i think we always looked the same from for everybody else no i think that's

49:25SPEAKERan i'm pretty sure that made it into the game i think you just have the the skin that's in this

49:29SPEAKERin this thumbnail i think that's the same you're talking about like seeing the rocket launcher when

49:33SPEAKERsomebody's using i'm pretty sure when you're in first person you see that you have the rocket

49:36SPEAKERlauncher when you're in third when you're looking at somebody else i don't think you do we need to

49:39SPEAKERfact check this i'd swear that made it in we might just have to play quake anyway all i all i want to

49:43SPEAKERsay real quick about multi-skin is and again that came out of the community but it was like the first

49:46SPEAKERexample i saw of like changeable skins on player models right like if you just want to go down a

49:52SPEAKERchecklist of things that this game brought about like i can't think of an earlier example of that

49:58SPEAKERbecause well doom you could make your own you can it's funny this is a place where 3d made

50:02SPEAKERit easier probably rather than harder that's what i mean like as if it's the first game with like

50:06SPEAKER3d character player models then it was by by necessity also the first game with like changeable

50:12SPEAKERskins like this and like you said yeah like all you're doing is painting a skin right because

50:16SPEAKERlike with doom you would have to animate an entire new sprite to animate the sprite sheet which was

50:20SPEAKERa pain in the butt um that's that's really cool um the first the first mod i'm trying to think

50:27SPEAKERwhat the first mod i played was for this i have no idea it probably was ctf but it was still it

50:33SPEAKERwas hard to download mods because they were really big and even on isdn it wasn't like a speedy

50:38SPEAKERprocess yeah um multi-skin i don't see the original release date but multi-skin 1.1 came

50:46SPEAKERout on august 1st 1996 which is like five weeks after the game shipped so like it was damn near

50:52SPEAKERthe first mod for quake and again like i think it was pretty influential but the person who made it

50:56SPEAKERwas probably hired by ritual like 15 minutes after it came out it's exactly what happened back then

51:00SPEAKERthose artists like i remember somebody would release a like literally there'd be a post on

51:05SPEAKERblues news and a new map would come out for like rocket arena or ctf or something and then like

51:10SPEAKERthree days later it would be like steven steven eyes yep the guy who released the map on tuesday

51:16SPEAKERis now working at such and such totally like i remember uh trying to yo yo sure i think is how

51:25SPEAKERyou pronounce his name do you remember that name rhymes with toast like he was a he was a really

51:30SPEAKERwell-known doom mapper or i don't know if he started in doom or if he started with quake

51:35SPEAKERdidn't he end up writing one of the one of the map editors or something it might be possible

51:40SPEAKERit's just a random name that came to mind but like the mappers like popular community mappers

51:45SPEAKERbecame like minor celebrities in their own right and then yeah they all just got hired up by all

51:49SPEAKERthese satellite studios it was such a weird like thriving community um so yeah this is still in the

51:55SPEAKERtime where like quake came out and there wasn't another 3d shooter for a really long time oh

52:00SPEAKERlike i guess too probably oh quick to an unreal i don't remember real unreal came out yeah unreal

52:05SPEAKERcame out i think in 98 unreal came out between quake one and quake two if i recall it had colored

52:10SPEAKERlights it did have colored lighting it's oh no this says 98 uh yeah may may 98 for unreal i think

52:18SPEAKERit was like two is sooner quite two was before unreal one okay uh unreal got a lot of hype

52:23SPEAKERthough it was definitely in the news quite a bit you could go outside yeah yeah that was the big

52:27SPEAKERdeal there's that big ship and that waterfall they told a story all right last thing here on

52:33SPEAKERmy list that i made of things that i thought quake was the first to do yeah you brought this up

52:38SPEAKERearlier i had to stop myself do you want to click do you want to click the link now i know what i

52:43SPEAKERknow what it says marathon had it before yes yes the this guinnessworldrecords.com link for first

52:50SPEAKERuse of free look and a first person shooter goes to marathon by bungee in 1994 i i'm i'm not i like

52:57SPEAKERdark souls had that or dark uh forces forces had that the dark forces had mouse look yeah you could

53:02SPEAKERlook up and down it may not have had you know what it might have been page up and page down when i

53:06SPEAKERthink about it definitely was that that was the default yeah um this yeah this according to this

53:11SPEAKERmarathon was the first game with mouse look i added uh the other thing about do it at that time

53:17SPEAKERwas that they never had release dates for anything ever yes they did that i think that's also why

53:24SPEAKERpeople were so cranked up about plan files and all that stuff all the time because like often

53:28SPEAKERlike the release would be somebody would update their plan finally be like yo it's on the ftb

53:32SPEAKERserver it's like oh kway test is out yeah by the way here's a test you could play it and like that

53:37SPEAKERthe ftb server one of those pc game articles is like yeah the the ftb server will support

53:42SPEAKER2 000 connections at any given time and for the last 18 days it's been full 24 hours a day for

53:48SPEAKERpeople downloading their blah blah blah that's why i wanted the shell account brad because the

53:52SPEAKERshell account came with 20 megabytes of space and i could download my stuff to that in like

53:58SPEAKERseconds and then grab it Kermit it over from there smart thinking yeah that cs major paid

54:04SPEAKERoff i didn't i didn't last i lasted i made i got a b and cs 100 never looked back that's about

54:11SPEAKERexactly the path that i took actually but they never took away my shell account now that you

54:15SPEAKERmentioned it i also got through about the first semester or year and it was like it's time for

54:19SPEAKERa pivot so anyway yeah when it's done is what you're getting at was the classic the classic

54:24SPEAKERrefrain in the community like one of the weird things about quake is that they didn't expose

54:32SPEAKERstuff in the ui like turning on mouse look right or the fact that there were six deathmatch maps

54:39SPEAKERyeah like you wrote in you were just editing your autoexec.cfg to do things like turn on mouse look

54:44SPEAKERautomatically yeah well but like there was no menu way to get to the dm oh you're right that's right

54:51SPEAKERbecause i think i'm guessing you know in their mind you're just going to be connecting to servers

54:55SPEAKERon the internet and they'll be the ones setting the map list so what do you as the player need

54:59SPEAKERto know about what multiplayer maps are in the game so at some point i i like loaded up to play

55:04SPEAKERmultiplayer the first time i was like wait what the fuck is this map i've never seen this before

55:07SPEAKERbecause in doom you just played multiplayer in the single player maps right or in map pack that

55:12SPEAKERsomebody had downloaded but really back then you didn't like the servers wouldn't automatically

55:17SPEAKERdistribute the maps to you in doom so you had to have the same map pack on that all your friends

55:21SPEAKERdid so it was a real pain in the butt to make sure they really had the right stuff to play

55:25SPEAKERso so you ended up literally just playing the same maps that were built into the game all the time and

55:29SPEAKERand like i i just i'm gonna put this out there i think dm3 is probably the best

55:35SPEAKERdm and team dm multiplayer map of all time yeah so that was what i was referred to earlier when i

55:40SPEAKERwhen i opened up this notes doc earlier and saw that you had just written in here can we just

55:44SPEAKERtalk about dm3 it was like all right this is why we do a podcast together dm3 dm3 is unequivocally

55:50SPEAKERnot just my favorite quake map but my favorite multiplayer map of all time like i there hmm i

55:57SPEAKERreally like a rangel i don't know them by the name it's the default map from pubg oh okay i

56:03SPEAKERthought that was a quake i thought that was getting in the in the end of the era where

56:06SPEAKERquake maps had actual names and not just like q2 dm6 or whatever no no i like a rangel i like

56:12SPEAKERuh dust in team fortress but not in counter strike oh i thought you were gonna say counter strike

56:17SPEAKERno i don't i'm not familiar with it i never played a lot of tf or tf2 i'm not familiar with that

56:22SPEAKERversion so in tf it was a push it was a push map where like when one team defends the other

56:27SPEAKERteam attacks and you like it was just asymmetrical and really good de dust is quite good but it's

56:32SPEAKERfine but nothing is dm3 dm3 so dm3 had this strong side weak side thing that was really

56:38SPEAKERinteresting and weird in that literally it's two circles that they cross at a midpoint yeah and

56:44SPEAKERthere's a skill jump there's a couple skill jumps there's a rocket fuck we haven't even talked about

56:48SPEAKERrocket jumping god rocket jumping is another thing from the for the yes oh my god i learned

56:53SPEAKERabout jumping from blues news right he posted it like here's how to rocket jump tutorial and a

56:57SPEAKERscript i was like oh man this changes everything see was rocket jump for years abusing abusing game

57:03SPEAKERphysics in ways that the developers didn't even anticipate to change the game yeah also happened

57:07SPEAKERin quake well but so so okay so there's a strong side and a weak side and one team usually spawned

57:13SPEAKERon the strong side one team spawned on the weak side the strong side had the rocket launcher

57:16SPEAKERthe lightning gun i think the um the mega health they're talking about the big room with all the

57:21SPEAKERwater quad damage yes mega health the rocket the mega vulnerability the mega health spawns on the

57:28SPEAKERhump in that little courtyard which i want to say is sort of the connector between the two areas

57:32SPEAKERisn't it no the invulnerability spawns in the court though the invulnerability spawns in the

57:37SPEAKERside room off of the quad jump quad damage room that sounds right and there's a mega the mega

57:42SPEAKERisn't the mega health under the under the water pretty sure the mega health isn't there maybe

57:46SPEAKERmaybe there's more maybe there might have been two anyway anyway we're getting into some pretty

57:52SPEAKERone is armor and one is health okay um anyway the point is if you if you start on that side

57:58SPEAKERyou're pretty much guaranteed to win except for you somehow weren't because the other guns

58:03SPEAKERif you worked in unison and pushed hard then you could take that away from you could you could take

58:07SPEAKERthose spots away from the other team pretty easily and it ended up being a real like who holds the

58:13SPEAKERrocket launcher room off of the lightning gun water room ended up being like this incredibly

58:18SPEAKERlike like the meta around that evolved really really fast and and also like it seemed like

58:24SPEAKERthere was no skill ceiling on that part of the game because they're like there were the usually

58:29SPEAKERthe rocket launcher is really good but because you were fighting in a room that was surrounded by you

58:32SPEAKERwere on a little ledge surrounded by water this whole strategy of shooting at people's feet and

58:36SPEAKERknocking them around didn't really mess you up all that bad yeah and also if shit went really

58:42SPEAKERsideways and you could get the lightning gun you just had to jump in the water and kill everybody

58:46SPEAKERin the room yes so then it reset the whole level yes i always thought it was a it was a pretty

58:51SPEAKERbrilliant decision to not let you just shoot the lightning gun into the water from dry land you

58:56SPEAKERhad to get in there and to start and discharge it oh yeah you had to kill yourself yeah you had to

59:00SPEAKEReat it along with everybody else to get all those kills or you had to get the the invulnerability

59:04SPEAKERand then swim through and get there fast enough yes yes but like quake also has all sorts of weird

59:09SPEAKERphysics stuff because it it's um the trigonometry of running and jumping you could you could end up

59:16SPEAKERbuilding up incredible speed in that game um the the there were a ton of skill jumps in that

59:22SPEAKERparticular map so like the two loops were connected around this round courtyard and the the upper

59:28SPEAKERfloor there were two floors around the courtyard one on the ground level one up higher and you could

59:33SPEAKERjump across from one side to the other if you were good at doing the skill jump almost 100 of

59:39SPEAKERthe time the good people could do it every time yeah um and then grab quad damage and like the

59:44SPEAKERquad damage was an incredible force multiplier for the whole thing like anytime you heard that

59:49SPEAKERwham wham wham sound when the quad damage got picked up it was it was amazing yeah like you

59:54SPEAKERi mean you're talking about all these like skill shots with um rocket jumps and like leading people

59:58SPEAKERwith the rockets and all that stuff it makes me realize this is the first multiplayer game i

1:00:03SPEAKERremember that had like an emerging evolving metagame right and like i mean i guess that's

1:00:06SPEAKERthat is a kind of a natural consequence of it being the first major online multiplayer game

1:00:10SPEAKERperiod right but like i mean it happened with doom but the doom because doom wasn't online

1:00:16SPEAKERit was like a local it was like fighting game scene right there were like local clusters of

1:00:20SPEAKERlike the chicago people like to play uh baraka and and never play you know like the chicago

1:00:28SPEAKERmortal combat people like these this these characters and this is how they play and they

1:00:32SPEAKERplay defensive and like quake didn't have that because everybody was just connecting to the same

1:00:36SPEAKERservers around the country and you'd go over wherever your ping was good right well but i

1:00:39SPEAKERmean also just the range of possibilities was so much narrower in doom because you couldn't jump

1:00:43SPEAKERyou yeah couldn't bounce people around with rockets as much like the physics world were muted

1:00:48SPEAKERlike you had to hit them with the rockets or they had to be stay as long as you weren't standing

1:00:51SPEAKERnext to a wall it was pretty hard to hit you with a rock also you couldn't aim up and down so you

1:00:54SPEAKERcouldn't control the splash damage in different directions as well like there was just a lot more

1:00:58SPEAKERthat could happen with quake and so people found a lot more to exploit in it well and for me that

1:01:04SPEAKERstuff happened like that stuff peaked it didn't peak but like the moment that became clear to me

1:01:08SPEAKERwas when rocket rocket arena came out and you would get like rocket arena was this it was a

1:01:14SPEAKERmod where you'd put like six six or eight people in a server and you would do one v one death match

1:01:19SPEAKERwith just you instead of having to go collect the weapons on the map you'd spawn in with all

1:01:23SPEAKERthe weapons and you could pick whatever you wanted and fight the other person so like they were almost

1:01:29SPEAKERalways cylindrical arenas sometimes there'd be barriers and stuff around sometimes they'd just

1:01:33SPEAKERbe wide open it was like who could rocket jump and splash damage the person best and all the

1:01:38SPEAKERspectators instead of like sitting in a lobby or something they would be running around with axes

1:01:43SPEAKERon the top of the map and the the ceiling of the map would be see-through so you could watch and

1:01:47SPEAKERlearn and see what other people were doing which was which was revelatory yeah like that was

1:01:52SPEAKERincredible yep oh it was such a good game it really was quite influential i think we can say

1:02:00SPEAKERum i don't yeah there's we could probably sit here for another hour talking about it but

1:02:06SPEAKERum i think like i said i think i think beyond the game itself and how addicted i was to it for years

1:02:11SPEAKERlike introducing me to things like usenet and unix and big workstations and networking stuff and just

1:02:18SPEAKERlike all the all these various computing technologies that i then became pretty infatuated

1:02:23SPEAKERwith over time yeah this game was a conduit to a lot of bigger stuff in in in that space well in

1:02:31SPEAKERthe way that in the way that games were not i mean then when gl quake which i can't we might have to

1:02:35SPEAKERdo a whole episode about gl quake sometime soon yeah i mean we you know we did that we did that

1:02:39SPEAKERepisode about 90s 3d accelerators a while back so we kind of touched on it a good big thin but but

1:02:44SPEAKERit was like it was the reason i started building computers because i wanted to try all the video

1:02:48SPEAKERcards and see how they worked with gl quake right right totally like it was it was the reason i

1:02:54SPEAKERlearned how to build computers in the first place was because of my pentium 60 wasn't good enough to

1:02:58SPEAKERlike i couldn't fit a video card in it because it was a it was a pizza box machine yes and i wanted

1:03:04SPEAKERto get a tower i built a k6 and put a put a voodoo 2 in it and i was like this is fucking cool i like

1:03:09SPEAKERthis quake is 100 the reason that i also started building computers when i didn't yeah if i if i

1:03:14SPEAKERhadn't like there we talked about your your nice badge lady in atlanta that let you into e3 the

1:03:21SPEAKERfirst time like i i wouldn't have done the things that led me to where i am now had it not been for

1:03:28SPEAKERquake i think that's a pretty safe statement that if not for that game i don't know that either one

1:03:34SPEAKERof us would be sitting here right now no i'd probably live in knoxville still man i mean

1:03:40SPEAKERknoxville's fine i like knoxville yeah um i guess i think on that note yeah i was you know real quick

1:03:46SPEAKERwe could talk about engine licensing but it wasn't it was kind of a big deal it was a big deal for

1:03:50SPEAKERquake for a few years but i mean it was a big deal because it said it it established the business

1:03:56SPEAKERthat epic then came to dominate over the last two console generations that's kind of what the

1:04:00SPEAKERlong-term story of that is like it was out there licensing the i mean you know blake stone was

1:04:06SPEAKERbuilt on the wolfenstein engine like they were licensing their tech from day one and there were

1:04:10SPEAKERa ton of games built on quake one quake two and quake three but then it kind of stopped

1:04:14SPEAKERand unreal really ran away with that market after that well i i mean look there's a whole bunch of

1:04:20SPEAKERstuff that's weird about it to talk about like there was the idea that like one of the things

1:04:25SPEAKERkarmak pushed early and he comes up with those quite pc gamer interviews but he was like the

1:04:29SPEAKERtechnology and the game should work together right it shouldn't be like the technology people say hey

1:04:34SPEAKERhere's your thing and then you go artists go dump stuff into it make a game um and then they did

1:04:41SPEAKERexactly that thing by licensing the engine right like yo good luck but also like here's the engine

1:04:48SPEAKERgood luck go make a game but also that that crop that first crop of quake licensees like there were

1:04:55SPEAKERwhat like six of them or seven i think all told something like that it was like sin and half-life

1:05:00SPEAKERand heretic two and hexen two and duke nukem forever which obviously did not end up shipping

1:05:06SPEAKERon a quake and and it engine at all um dikatana yes i believe anachronox oh anachronox was the

1:05:13SPEAKERother one yeah quake was a quake engine game uh i mean down down the line you know like infinity

1:05:18SPEAKERward used quake three as the base for call of duty you know yeah like it it did span a pretty

1:05:24SPEAKERpretty wide range of games in terms of engine licensing but that fell off after quake three

1:05:29SPEAKERpretty hard i always got the sense that they just didn't support the engine licensing the

1:05:33SPEAKERway that epic did like epic turned it into a business right yeah that's exactly i mean it

1:05:38SPEAKERseemed like people used it until epic made it hard to say no to epic right just making the tools

1:05:43SPEAKERbetter tools and documentation and all that stuff were better but like you know you heard stories

1:05:46SPEAKERfor i don't know how true this still is but like you would hear stories for years of like like oh

1:05:51SPEAKERthere's still some quake one code kicking around in these very late period valve and infinity war

1:05:56SPEAKERgames yeah i mean you can tell which ones have it because they have the they have the portions

1:06:01SPEAKERcopyright on the on their on their on their pages on their credit pages yes um i was like it's the

1:06:09SPEAKERother thing is it's so hard like the only other people that were making 3d games that were quite

1:06:15SPEAKERlike this until the quake engine licensees came out was like dark forces jedi jedi knight jedi

1:06:22SPEAKERknight was somewhere in that window was kind of not quite to that level of technology but it was

1:06:27SPEAKERin that ballpark it was it was it was janky looking 3d guys whereas these were kind of meaty looking

1:06:33SPEAKER3d guys and like the lighting wasn't as good and stuff like that but it was not it was it was

1:06:37SPEAKERcompetitive they were fun yeah um like unreal unreal one was the first game that came out with

1:06:42SPEAKERbrand new technology that could rival what it was doing at the time well and then and then what sin

1:06:48SPEAKERand half-life uh and heretic 2 came out in the same year within like a month of a couple of weeks

1:06:55SPEAKERa month of each other i think that sounds right yeah so you're like it's it's a it's a weird thing

1:07:05SPEAKERso yeah sin came out in november of 98 and half-life came out uh the sin sin heretic

1:07:10SPEAKERtwo and half-life came out the same basic month it's incredible um like it it casts a long shadow i

1:07:18SPEAKERguess that's what i'm trying to say yes for sure quick did anyway so i mean i i don't did we learn

1:07:25SPEAKERanything this week i still like quake i guess is the thing i learned i would play some quake

1:07:29SPEAKERwe should play some quake man our friend of the friend of the podcast west finland has been

1:07:33SPEAKERsetting up some quake server stuff really yes maybe we should play some quake i would play

1:07:38SPEAKERsome quake i love quake hit me up yes um this is the part of the show where we uh thank our patrons

1:07:44SPEAKERthanks patrons yes thank you very much patrons um you make this possible yeah you make the show

1:07:49SPEAKERpossible we we really appreciate it um whether you are a two dollar you know hey i just want

1:07:55SPEAKERto hang on the discord patron or one of our fabulous executive producers like andrew slosky

1:08:00SPEAKERbunny fiend the bunny fiend rather jacob chapel joel kroska twinkle twinkie david allen or james

1:08:05SPEAKERkamek we appreciate you all everyone thank you so much this is as as we say every week this is a

1:08:11SPEAKERlistener supported show so without you all uh we wouldn't be here yep um true and i can i can

1:08:17SPEAKERconfirm that is true yeah so uh and and i feel like we're starting to find tech pod solutions for

1:08:27SPEAKERall of our problems now that could go good or bad i well i mean we'll find out we we

1:08:35SPEAKERi still feel like we don't need moderation but sometimes people need a little help

1:08:39SPEAKERresolving conflicts and and so we we introduced a new concept to the tech pod discord this month

1:08:44SPEAKERyes should we talk about it this is a bad idea i don't know okay look um basically when people

1:08:53SPEAKERhave conflicts of interest we found we made a special room for them and they can go in

1:08:57SPEAKERwhere they're it's the only room that they're allowed to contribute to on the discord until

1:09:01SPEAKERsuch times they resolve their conflicts and um uh yeah it's like a it's like a it's like an enforced

1:09:08SPEAKERtimeout we have we have not actually employed this concept we just sort of put it in place as a

1:09:14SPEAKERit's more of a benevolent threat is what i think of it as sure anyway yeah um we were going to

1:09:20SPEAKERautomate it but we realized that that would be monstrous and a bad idea so anyway do not crowd

1:09:24SPEAKERsource moderation it do not crowdsource moderation that's a good good advice um uh but we we also have

1:09:29SPEAKERfabulous conversations pretty much all the time every time i dip in it so something good is

1:09:34SPEAKERhappening so um if you want to check it out you can go to patreon.com slash tech pod again that's

1:09:41SPEAKERpatreon.com slash tech pod uh we are are we gonna commit to raising prices at the end of the month

1:09:47SPEAKERbrad changing tiers maybe we are theoretically it's not raising prices it's it's same tiers

1:09:54SPEAKERjust different well we're gonna probably get rid of the two dollar tier yeah that's probably yeah

1:09:59SPEAKERso it seems to be the way it's going but if you're on the two dollar tier now you'll be able to keep

1:10:02SPEAKERit forever that's right so you know that's something to think about um and on that note

1:10:07SPEAKERi think we should call it a show um as always thank you sir this was fun yeah i i love man i i

1:10:13SPEAKERlike if we ever want to do a spin-off podcast i would do one that's just talking about

1:10:17SPEAKERlike we could just start blues news is still the same man it's still there i mean everything in

1:10:23SPEAKERthis wheelhouse everything in this and then under the umbrella of what we've been talking about

1:10:27SPEAKERtoday is like my favorite shit ever so could we do just like a quake in real life where we start

1:10:32SPEAKERat like the doom release day and we go through each day's news and do a weekly wrap-up for that

1:10:38SPEAKERway in doom doom and quake history let's get one of those old sites to like dump their entire

1:10:42SPEAKERdatabase for us we can just follow along in real time we could just go back onto archive on blues

1:10:48SPEAKERnews is what i'm saying what it's still there what you're saying is we really just need a time

1:10:52SPEAKERmachine i mean i don't want to go back i don't i like where i am now but you know i just i'm just

1:10:58SPEAKERsaying like it was an interesting time it was a formative time for the internet and for video

1:11:02SPEAKERgames and for us and for us we'll see you all next week thanks for listening everybody