65: Visionary or Villain

00:00SPEAKERDid you see that SpaceX thing yesterday?

00:01SPEAKER- No, I just heard it blew up.

00:03SPEAKER- Oh man.

00:03SPEAKERSo look, it goes up in the air 18 kilometers,

00:07SPEAKERthere's 12 kilometers, there's like high.

00:10SPEAKERAnd then it gets to the point where it's at the top

00:13SPEAKERand it flips over, like just poof, real fast.

00:16SPEAKERLike a rollercoaster kind of like,

00:19SPEAKERtrying to think about what amusement park ride it would be,

00:23SPEAKERbut it is one that I probably would not get on at age 45.

00:26SPEAKER- Can I just take it for granted

00:27SPEAKERthat this was an unplanned maneuver?

00:29SPEAKER- No, this was intentional.

00:30SPEAKERThis is how it's supposed to work.

00:31SPEAKER- Weird.

00:32SPEAKER- 'Cause it goes up and then it like gets down

00:34SPEAKERand kind of like fat side down

00:36SPEAKERwith the little winglets sticking out the side

00:38SPEAKERso it can kind of steer and keep the upside up

00:39SPEAKERand the downside down.

00:40SPEAKER- This is one of the SpaceX vehicles.

00:42SPEAKER- This is the big, I don't know, the big chunk,

00:45SPEAKERwhatever the cars. - I did not keep up.

00:46SPEAKERI did not keep up with the news.

00:48SPEAKERThis is one of the reusable ones?

00:49SPEAKERLike what's the--

00:50SPEAKER- This is a test bed for like the thing

00:53SPEAKERthat is gonna do a non-orbital around the world

00:58SPEAKERin like 90 minutes or halfway from here to Hong Kong

01:02SPEAKERin like 75 minutes or something.

01:04SPEAKER- So like a ramjet?

01:06SPEAKER- No, it's a rocket.

01:07SPEAKERLike you get on the rocket, it takes off, it goes up.

01:10SPEAKER- Wait, a literal rocket?

01:11SPEAKER- A literal rocket.

01:12SPEAKER- Jeez.

01:13SPEAKER- Yeah, also this is I think the thing

01:15SPEAKERthat's gonna go to Mars, I don't know.

01:16SPEAKERIt's unclear, there's so much.

01:18SPEAKER- Well, it sounds like it's not going anywhere as of yet.

01:22SPEAKER- So the parts that were important

01:24SPEAKERgot tested and apparently worked.

01:25SPEAKERLike they were stoked, it seemed like,

01:28SPEAKEReven though it blew up.

01:29SPEAKER- The rest is fungible.

01:30SPEAKER- Yeah, like look, the thing is they crashed four or five

01:32SPEAKERof the regular Falcons before they got one

01:35SPEAKERthat landed on the pad.

01:36SPEAKERAnd all that while the old pogies were like,

01:39SPEAKERthis is impossible, I mean, my parents were staying

01:43SPEAKERin Florida regularly when they were doing that.

01:45SPEAKERAnd like all the old retired rocket engineers

01:48SPEAKERwho lived around Cocoa Beach were like,

01:51SPEAKERah, this Musk guy's never gonna work.

01:53SPEAKERAnd then immediately became like Tesla driving Musk fanboys

01:56SPEAKERat the moment they landed rockets on the pad 50 style.

01:58SPEAKERSo who knows?

01:59SPEAKER- Oh, great.

02:00SPEAKER- Politics of Elon Musk aside,

02:02SPEAKERit was a cool video to watch and, but the flip,

02:05SPEAKERthe thing that it, when it's wanging down

02:07SPEAKERand then just spins down and the jets fire full blast.

02:10SPEAKER- Sorry, did you say when it's wanging down?

02:12SPEAKER- It, look, it was falling like a stone with wings.

02:15SPEAKERAnd then about, I don't know,

02:17SPEAKERit looked like maybe a thousand feet off the ground.

02:20SPEAKERIt goes rockets down and the rockets,

02:23SPEAKERwell, they didn't fire the way they were supposed to,

02:24SPEAKERobviously, 'cause it exploded.

02:26SPEAKERBut had they fired the right way,

02:27SPEAKERthen they would have theoretically, you know,

02:28SPEAKERlanded on the pad vertically again.

02:30SPEAKER- Just made a gentle descent onto the pad.

02:32SPEAKERWow, that sounds very graceful when you describe it.

02:36SPEAKER- No, it's too fast.

02:37SPEAKERNo, it was, I don't want to be inside that thing.

02:39SPEAKERYou'd have to have your head like,

02:40SPEAKERyou'd have to have your head brace

02:41SPEAKERso you don't get horrific whiplash

02:44SPEAKERfrom the wanging of the spaceship.

02:46SPEAKERIt was, didn't seem great.

02:48SPEAKER- Yeah.

02:48SPEAKERYou ever read up on the whole ramjet, scramjet thing?

02:51SPEAKER- Yeah.

02:52SPEAKER- Of course you, of course you of all people

02:53SPEAKERare familiar with that stuff.

02:54SPEAKER- Yeah, I love that stuff.

02:55SPEAKERI think I will never get over the fact that stuff works

02:57SPEAKERand worked in practice.

02:59SPEAKERAnd they only declined to put it into commercial use

03:03SPEAKERbecause of the noise, because it annoyed people.

03:07SPEAKER- Also there was, well, that's why the Concorde

03:09SPEAKERdidn't end up becoming a thing too, right?

03:11SPEAKERIs like in order for it to take off, it made so much noise.

03:14SPEAKER- Yes, the sonic booms were just intolerable

03:16SPEAKERto too many people.

03:18SPEAKERWe could do New York to LA in like what,

03:20SPEAKER90 minutes or something?

03:22SPEAKER- Less than that.

03:23SPEAKER- Whatever it was.

03:24SPEAKERIt's, let's see, the SR-71s,

03:27SPEAKERthe record time is like 34 minutes or something

03:30SPEAKERfrom New York to DC, from DC to LA.

03:33SPEAKER- Could have it so good.

03:35SPEAKER- I, look.

03:36SPEAKER- If only people didn't mind their windows

03:37SPEAKERshattering every so often.

03:39SPEAKER- Look, you gotta make an omelet, eggs, yada yada.

03:42SPEAKERI, would you, I don't know.

03:45SPEAKERI always read about and saw like videos of Concorde flights

03:48SPEAKERand stuff like that.

03:49SPEAKER'Cause that seemed like a thing that really, really,

03:51SPEAKERlike those tickets were phenomenally expensive

03:54SPEAKEReven by like intercontinental first class prices, right?

03:57SPEAKERLike 10 grand a seat or something.

03:59SPEAKER- I believe that's the case.

04:00SPEAKERI hope I'm not conflating the Concorde

04:02SPEAKERwith the ramjet stuff too much, am I?

04:05SPEAKER- Well, so my understanding is that the problem

04:06SPEAKERwith the ramjets is twofold.

04:08SPEAKEROne is that they're really loud.

04:09SPEAKERThey are burning fuel.

04:11SPEAKERThey're not, they're environmental nightmares

04:15SPEAKER'cause they burn fuel in an area

04:17SPEAKERwhere like there's no exhaust normally

04:19SPEAKERand no way for that stuff to get there.

04:20SPEAKERBut also the material science to make them safe

04:24SPEAKERand reusable was pretty substantial

04:26SPEAKERand maybe beyond what we could do.

04:29SPEAKER- We got the ballpoint pen out of the space program.

04:32SPEAKER- No.

04:33SPEAKER- Did I get that wrong too?

04:34SPEAKER- Space pen.

04:35SPEAKERYou think about the pressurized ballpoint pen.

04:37SPEAKER- Oh.

04:38SPEAKER- Yeah, we had ballpoint pens before that.

04:39SPEAKERThey didn't work 'cause they need gravity.

04:40SPEAKER- Okay, well, there's always a better ballpoint pen

04:42SPEAKERto achieve.

04:43SPEAKER- Do you even use, I use gel pens now.

04:45SPEAKER- I don't even know what that is.

04:46SPEAKER- All about that gel baby.

04:48SPEAKER- Who writes?

04:49SPEAKER- I don't know what handwriting is anymore.

04:51SPEAKER- Look, I have a eight-year-old.

04:53SPEAKERWe do, I do, I keep disposable.

04:56SPEAKERI feel bad 'cause I keep those disposable

04:57SPEAKERorange plastic Bic mechanical pencils.

05:02SPEAKERAnd then I also use really kind of fancy disposable

05:05SPEAKERlike Uniball gel 0.38.

05:09SPEAKER- Disposable, huh?

05:10SPEAKER- Yeah, I know.

05:11SPEAKER- Sounds perfect for this episode.

05:14SPEAKER(upbeat music)

05:19SPEAKER(upbeat music continues)

05:44SPEAKER- Welcome to "Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod."

05:46SPEAKERI'm Will.

05:47SPEAKER- I'm Brad.

05:48SPEAKERI always tell myself I'm not gonna do

05:49SPEAKERand talk about the actual episode in the cold open.

05:52SPEAKER- Oh, that was good.

05:53SPEAKERThat was a nice segue.

05:54SPEAKER- Too much continuity.

05:55SPEAKER- That was smooth 'cause the music played

05:57SPEAKERright after you did that.

05:58SPEAKERIt sounded really cool, I'm sure.

05:59SPEAKER- That thing's supposed to be

06:00SPEAKERlike its own mini three-minute podcast.

06:02SPEAKEREntirely self-contained.

06:04SPEAKER- We should just, you know,

06:05SPEAKERthink of how many more podcasts we could have

06:07SPEAKERif we just did three-minute podcasts.

06:08SPEAKER- Whoa, don't say that out loud, man.

06:11SPEAKER- And we have two days to get the first one up.

06:13SPEAKERWe could be like Quibi, but for podcasts.

06:15SPEAKER- We gotta get the US Patent and Trade Office on the phone.

06:17SPEAKER- No, let's just start jamming out.

06:20SPEAKERLet's see how many, didn't they do,

06:21SPEAKERthat was a reply all episode.

06:24SPEAKER- Help me out here.

06:25SPEAKEROkay, we gotta come up with a pithy name

06:26SPEAKERbefore anything else.

06:27SPEAKERIt's like, but the microcast is too obvious.

06:31SPEAKER- No, no, it needs to be just gibberish.

06:33SPEAKERMy cast.

06:35SPEAKER- It's like a name it after a bird, right?

06:36SPEAKERThat seems to work well.

06:38SPEAKER- Well, we could call it Mike cast.

06:39SPEAKER- It's called a finch.

06:40SPEAKER- All the hosts have to be named Mike.

06:42SPEAKER- Our three-minute podcast is a finch.

06:44SPEAKER- Yeah, okay, I'm in.

06:46SPEAKER- Fitch cast? - Finch.

06:48SPEAKER- Oh, no cast, just a finch. - No cast?

06:49SPEAKEROh.

06:50SPEAKER- I can't, it doesn't need to make sense.

06:52SPEAKER- What is the Mondragreen?

06:53SPEAKERWhat's the Portmanteau short for?

06:55SPEAKERIs it like financial chimpanzees?

06:59SPEAKER- Yes, so you've already put too much thought into it.

07:01SPEAKER- This is really good.

07:02SPEAKER- Yeah, we can get out of this hellhole.

07:04SPEAKERWait, we don't have a hellhole here,

07:05SPEAKERbut theoretically.

07:07SPEAKER- I don't think we're gonna cover this topic

07:09SPEAKERin three minutes.

07:11SPEAKER- No, this is a bigger topic than three minutes.

07:13SPEAKER- Yes.

07:14SPEAKER- And it all starts with Malcolm Gladwell,

07:18SPEAKERat TED in like 2003 or 2004.

07:20SPEAKERSee, I did an NPR intro there.

07:22SPEAKER- Okay, I thought you were gonna say

07:23SPEAKERit all starts with Cheetos, but we'll get there in a minute.

07:26SPEAKER- So he did, and this showed up in one of his books later,

07:28SPEAKERmaybe this was probably the TED talk that promoted the book,

07:31SPEAKERbut he talked about spaghetti sauce.

07:35SPEAKER- Okay.

07:36SPEAKER- And bliss points, bliss points.

07:39SPEAKERBliss point is, I think bliss point

07:41SPEAKERis probably the overarching idea here.

07:43SPEAKER- That is the one kind of buzzword or concept

07:46SPEAKERfrom this topic that had made its way.

07:48SPEAKERIt had so permeated the kind of mass consciousness

07:51SPEAKERthat I had heard of it.

07:52SPEAKER- So in the '50s and '60s, American food manufacturers,

07:58SPEAKERfactory manufacturer processed and prepared foods

08:00SPEAKERstarted to become a thing for the first time ever, really.

08:03SPEAKERAnd one of the things, one of the categories

08:06SPEAKERthey had a hard time cracking into was spaghetti sauce,

08:09SPEAKERwhich already most of the ingredients for spaghetti sauce

08:13SPEAKERwere canned and on shelves.

08:15SPEAKERSo why could you not get canned spaghetti sauce?

08:17SPEAKERBut they did a bunch of data analysis

08:21SPEAKERand they basically made a bunch of spaghetti sauce

08:23SPEAKERand fed it to a bunch of people,

08:24SPEAKERand then took the things that people liked

08:27SPEAKERabout the different sauces, the sweetness, the spiciness,

08:29SPEAKERthe texture, the smoothness, the lack of chunks,

08:32SPEAKERthe amount of green flecks in the sauce

08:35SPEAKERto make it look like there's actual spices in there.

08:37SPEAKERAnd they averaged them all together and Ragu was born.

08:41SPEAKER- Okay.

08:42SPEAKER- So after that, and such was life for like 30 years, right?

08:48SPEAKERRagu was the one you bought on shelves

08:50SPEAKERand there were some variants.

08:51SPEAKERThere was like Ragu with like a little bit of mushroom flavor

08:53SPEAKERor Ragu with a little spicier,

08:55SPEAKERRagu with a little sweet or whatever.

08:57SPEAKER- And this was still the '60s?

08:58SPEAKER- '60s, '70s into the early '80s.

09:00SPEAKER- Okay.

09:01SPEAKER- In the early '80s, this company called Prego

09:04SPEAKERwent to a guy named Howard Moskowitz and was like, hey.

09:08SPEAKER- Dude, Howard Moskowitz, holy crap.

09:11SPEAKER- Yeah, food science, gene, like legend, right?

09:14SPEAKER- Well, yes, hard to know whether to call him

09:19SPEAKERmore of a visionary or a villain.

09:21SPEAKER- Look, as with any good story,

09:24SPEAKERsometimes the hero and the villain are the same person.

09:27SPEAKERSo, and Prego was like, hey, we can't,

09:31SPEAKERwe're getting our ass kicked

09:32SPEAKERby these bland ass Ragu motherfuckers.

09:34SPEAKERWhat do we do to bring spaghetti sauce into the '80s?

09:41SPEAKERRight, and he was like, look, here's the deal.

09:43SPEAKER30%, he did the data analysis.

09:45SPEAKERHe did cross-country, when they do this,

09:48SPEAKERwhen they're searching for the bliss point,

09:50SPEAKERthey make bazillions of combinations,

09:52SPEAKERlike hundreds of combinations with all the variables shifted

09:55SPEAKERand they test them on thousands upon thousands of people

09:58SPEAKERin different regions, different ethnic backgrounds,

10:02SPEAKERdifferent ages, all this stuff.

10:05SPEAKERAnd Howard told Prego, yo, 30% of people

10:09SPEAKERlike chunky spaghetti sauce.

10:11SPEAKERAnd they went and looked at the grocery store shelves

10:13SPEAKERand there was no chunky spaghetti sauce.

10:15SPEAKERSo Prego jammed out some chunky spaghetti sauce

10:17SPEAKERand instantly captured 30% of the market

10:20SPEAKERbecause lots of people like tomato and mushroom chunks

10:22SPEAKERin there and meat chunks in their sauce.

10:24SPEAKER- And at the time they apparently

10:25SPEAKERwere not being served at all by the major tissue brand.

10:29SPEAKER- The averaging completely failed to serve.

10:32SPEAKERAnd in a lot of ways, this is the moment

10:34SPEAKERthat late stage capitalism in the grocery store started.

10:36SPEAKER- Yeah, so yeah, we'll put the link to this

10:39SPEAKERin the show notes, but you had me read

10:40SPEAKERand this is all laid out in a very detailed fashion

10:43SPEAKERin what probably is, 'cause I have to assume

10:47SPEAKERis considered like a landmark piece, right?

10:49SPEAKERFrom 2016 in the New York Times Magazine

10:52SPEAKERby Michael Moss called The Extraordinary Science

10:54SPEAKERof Addictive Junk Food.

10:56SPEAKER- It was a huge, huge article in that it was the first time

11:00SPEAKERfor different reasons.

11:01SPEAKERIt actually, this is part of a book called Sugar, Salt, Fat,

11:05SPEAKERHow the Food Giants Hooked Us,

11:07SPEAKERwhich Michael Moss wrote, I believe.

11:10SPEAKER- Okay.

11:11SPEAKER- And this article is adapted from that.

11:14SPEAKER- I see.

11:15SPEAKER- And it's basically about how, in the same way

11:18SPEAKERthat the tobacco companies knew that smoking was bad for us

11:22SPEAKERand continued to push cigarettes

11:25SPEAKERand minimize the reporting of health impacts,

11:28SPEAKERand the oil companies knew that global warming

11:29SPEAKERwas a real problem since the '70s,

11:31SPEAKERbut have been actively working to suppress concern

11:34SPEAKERabout that, it turns out that the big packaged food goods

11:39SPEAKERcompanies like General Mills and Kraft and Coca-Cola

11:43SPEAKERand all of those companies have been doing the same thing

11:46SPEAKERfor about the same amount of time.

11:48SPEAKER- Dude, this is an amazing article,

11:50SPEAKERbut I think I told you this as I was reading it,

11:52SPEAKERthe more you read it, the more sinister it feels.

11:55SPEAKER- Oh, this is not an article that will make you feel good

11:57SPEAKERabout anything.

11:57SPEAKER- And yeah, it opens with this amazing anecdote

11:59SPEAKERabout this 1999 clandestine meeting

12:02SPEAKERwhere the creatives of the processed food industry,

12:06SPEAKERfeeling, you know, they were feeling some compunction

12:08SPEAKERabout the way they were contributing to the obesity epidemic

12:11SPEAKERgathered all of the executives

12:12SPEAKERof the processed food industry

12:15SPEAKERto like formally express their concerns

12:17SPEAKERand how their companies could actually help become

12:19SPEAKERpart of the solution.

12:20SPEAKER- Yeah.

12:21SPEAKER- And the head of General Mills,

12:22SPEAKERthe biggest of those companies was like, no.

12:25SPEAKER- He basically shot the finger and walked out.

12:27SPEAKER- Yes, he basically was like,

12:29SPEAKERif we'd make our food taste less good,

12:31SPEAKERthen less people are going to buy it, so F off.

12:33SPEAKER- Yeah, so I've been thinking about this article

12:38SPEAKERfor 10 years now almost, right?

12:40SPEAKERLike since I first read it, it haunts me.

12:42SPEAKEREvery time I sit in the grocery store

12:44SPEAKERand I look at the Oreos aisle

12:46SPEAKERand I see 55 different kinds of Oreos from like, you know,

12:53SPEAKERI don't know, chocolate chunk to Pop Rocks flavored Oreos,

12:57SPEAKERI cringe and I think about what we're doing to ourselves.

13:01SPEAKERBut I also have been thinking about

13:03SPEAKERhow it applies to technology.

13:05SPEAKERBut before we get to technology,

13:06SPEAKERI want to talk about Cheetos.

13:08SPEAKER- Yeah.

13:08SPEAKER- 'Cause in a lot of ways,

13:10SPEAKERas a guy named Steven Witherly,

13:13SPEAKERwho wrote a book called "Why Humans Like Junk Food"

13:16SPEAKERand said, he said it better than I can.

13:18SPEAKERHe said, he ate a Cheetos puff and he said,

13:21SPEAKERthis is one of the most marvelously constructed foods

13:22SPEAKERon the planet in terms of pure pleasure.

13:25SPEAKERAnd the Cheeto is a result of a ton of research

13:29SPEAKERof this kind of seeking the bliss point

13:31SPEAKERin that the Cheeto is the perfect bliss point food.

13:35SPEAKERIt has crunch, the mouth texture and mouth feel of it

13:39SPEAKERthrough the entire eating process is delightful, right?

13:42SPEAKERYou want to have more of them in your mouth.

13:44SPEAKERThe cheesiness is exactly right.

13:45SPEAKERThe powder kind of distributes the flavor

13:48SPEAKERall throughout your entire mouth.

13:49SPEAKERSo all of your taste buds and your nose is all engaged.

13:52SPEAKERAnd this is a really important one.

13:55SPEAKERAs you eat it, as it sits in your mouth,

13:57SPEAKERit kind of just dissolves to nothing,

13:59SPEAKERwhich sends a signal to your brain,

14:01SPEAKERan unconscious signal to your brain that,

14:02SPEAKERhey, this food is devoid of calories

14:05SPEAKERso you can keep eating it.

14:07SPEAKERSo you eat it, you're completely unsatisfied

14:09SPEAKERno matter how many Cheetos you eat

14:11SPEAKERand you always want more of them.

14:12SPEAKERIf you want to sell a shitload of Cheetos to people,

14:15SPEAKERwhat does better than Cheetos, right?

14:17SPEAKERWhat does better than that?

14:20SPEAKERSo you have no brain signal to tell you to stop eating

14:21SPEAKERor anything like that.

14:22SPEAKERAnd the thing that happened in the '80s with Cheetos

14:27SPEAKERand there's a whole other article about the guy

14:28SPEAKERwho was like, hey, look, we're not serving the Latino market

14:31SPEAKERwith any of our Frito-Lay products at all.

14:34SPEAKERHe's now in charge of, he was in charge of Frito-Lay

14:38SPEAKERas of the last time I looked at who was the CEO of Frito-Lay

14:41SPEAKERbut he basically said, look,

14:45SPEAKERwe should just make Cheetos but spicy.

14:47SPEAKERAnd thus we're born the eight different gradations

14:51SPEAKERfrom flaming hot up to like,

14:53SPEAKERwe only sell this in the extreme Southwest,

14:56SPEAKERlike really, really insanely ghost pepper hot

14:59SPEAKERkind of Cheetos.

15:01SPEAKERAnd like, part of me loves this.

15:03SPEAKERI love a Cheetos, like who doesn't love a Cheeto, right?

15:04SPEAKERCheetos are really good.

15:07SPEAKER- Yes, they are.

15:09SPEAKER- But like the first, the engineering to get

15:12SPEAKERto that bliss point and then expanding the product line out

15:15SPEAKERto fill as many niches as possible

15:18SPEAKERand grab as much as you can is a really good example

15:21SPEAKERof what I kind of think of as the Cheetosification

15:24SPEAKERof technology.

15:25SPEAKER- So that engineering is where the kind of vision

15:28SPEAKERor villainy of Moskowitz comes in

15:30SPEAKERbecause it seems like his great innovation

15:31SPEAKERto bring all this was like statistical analysis

15:35SPEAKERof all those elements of like flavor and mouthfeel

15:38SPEAKERand stuff like that, right?

15:39SPEAKERLike he'd, I guess, you know, he's a mathematician

15:41SPEAKERlike PhD in psychology or something like that.

15:43SPEAKERAnd like, I guess was an army researcher.

15:46SPEAKER- Yeah, they looked for this point in some sort

15:49SPEAKERof research, right?

15:51SPEAKER- Yeah, it was interesting.

15:51SPEAKERLike it came out of apparently like soldiers not eating,

15:54SPEAKERnot getting enough calories in the field

15:55SPEAKERbecause the MREs were so bland and unpalatable, right?

15:59SPEAKERLike they didn't want to eat enough

16:00SPEAKERbecause the food was terrible.

16:01SPEAKER- I mean, you've seen Vinny eat a World War II C4 ration,

16:04SPEAKERright?

16:05SPEAKER- I've eaten an MRE before.

16:06SPEAKERI mean-

16:07SPEAKER- But MREs are different.

16:08SPEAKERMREs are pretty good.

16:08SPEAKERThe ones from World War II were horrifying.

16:10SPEAKER- Oh sure, of course, yes.

16:12SPEAKERBut yeah, you know, he brought that process

16:16SPEAKERand that sensibility to kind of consumer packaged goods

16:20SPEAKERand they quote him pretty extensively in this thing.

16:23SPEAKERAnd he comes off as kind of like an amoral figure

16:25SPEAKERin this whole thing.

16:26SPEAKERLike there is some full-on like,

16:28SPEAKERhey, I was struggling to survive financially.

16:30SPEAKERI don't have any qualms about my contribution

16:32SPEAKERto this process.

16:35SPEAKER- Look, I fully believe that in 1950,

16:37SPEAKERwhen they were inventing Cheetos,

16:39SPEAKERnobody realized that loading all the food with sugar

16:42SPEAKERand salt was going to have long-term implications

16:44SPEAKERon the health of our nation to the point that like,

16:47SPEAKERone of the reasons we have a higher fatality rate in the US

16:49SPEAKERbecause of coronavirus is because everybody's obese

16:52SPEAKERand has heart disease, right?

16:53SPEAKER- Yes, of course.

16:56SPEAKER- But I mean, there definitely was a moment

17:00SPEAKERas painted in this meeting with General Mills

17:03SPEAKERand the people who designed the food,

17:04SPEAKERto see the business people and the food designers

17:07SPEAKERwhere it was really clear that a lot of the nation

17:12SPEAKERof snackers that we've become was having an impact

17:16SPEAKERon overall obesity.

17:18SPEAKERAnd there's a big difference.

17:20SPEAKERIt's easy to say, hey, you shouldn't eat Cheetos

17:22SPEAKER'cause they'll make you fat.

17:24SPEAKERBut there's a difference with,

17:28SPEAKERthere's a difference when Cheetos are engineered

17:30SPEAKERto make them, make it difficult for you to stop eating them.

17:34SPEAKERAnd like, one of the things that happens when you know this

17:39SPEAKERis that all of a sudden you know that Cheetos are engineered

17:41SPEAKERto make you not be able to stop eating them.

17:43SPEAKERAnd you can eat like five Cheetos

17:44SPEAKERbecause this information is powerful, right?

17:46SPEAKER- Absolutely.

17:49SPEAKERAnd again, it's both interesting and alarming.

17:52SPEAKERThere's a look inside specific aspects of this process,

17:55SPEAKERlike specific cognitive stuff in this article,

17:58SPEAKERsuper eye-opening.

17:59SPEAKERLike there's that concept of sensory specific satiety here,

18:03SPEAKERwhich is described, I'm just quote the article in lay terms.

18:05SPEAKERIt's the tendency for big distinct flavors

18:07SPEAKERto overwhelm the brain,

18:08SPEAKERwhich responds by depressing your desire to have more.

18:12SPEAKERThe biggest hits, be they Coca-Cola or Doritos,

18:15SPEAKERowe their success to complex formulas

18:17SPEAKERthat peak the taste buds enough to be alluring,

18:19SPEAKERbut don't have a distinct overriding single flavor

18:22SPEAKERthat tells the brain to stop eating.

18:23SPEAKER- Yeah.

18:24SPEAKER- Like they know exactly what they're doing with the stuff.

18:26SPEAKERThey like mathematically,

18:28SPEAKERthey talk about the process in here.

18:29SPEAKERThey mathematically plot out how far is far enough

18:33SPEAKERwithout going too far.

18:34SPEAKERIt's both a cost saving measure in terms of ingredients

18:37SPEAKERand also psychological manipulation

18:39SPEAKERin like giving you enough of what you want

18:41SPEAKERwithout giving you so much that you don't want more.

18:43SPEAKER- Well, it's kind of chilling.

18:46SPEAKERIt all games the evolutionary biology

18:49SPEAKERof like flavor and tastes, right?

18:51SPEAKERAnd like one of the things you learn when you have a kid

18:54SPEAKERis that when kids turn two or three,

18:57SPEAKERthey start rejecting things that are sour or bitter

19:00SPEAKERbecause those flavors in the wild usually indicate,

19:03SPEAKERor your ability to detect those flavors in the wild

19:05SPEAKERusually indicate something that is either spoiled for sour

19:08SPEAKERor poisonous for bitter.

19:10SPEAKERAnd so we use those flavors in food

19:14SPEAKERbecause they're interesting,

19:15SPEAKERbut it takes us reaching an age

19:17SPEAKERwhen we're able to overwhelm our biological instincts

19:21SPEAKERto eat, to not eat the spoiled thing

19:23SPEAKERand not eat the poisonous thing.

19:25SPEAKERAnyway, how does this apply to tech?

19:27SPEAKERYou may ask.

19:28SPEAKER- Yes.

19:29SPEAKER- Well, we were talking about soundbars the other day.

19:32SPEAKER- We were.

19:33SPEAKER- And I was looking at the 5.1 speaker system

19:36SPEAKERin my living room and you were looking at the 2.1 or 3.1

19:40SPEAKERin your living room.

19:41SPEAKER- It's just two floor speakers.

19:42SPEAKERI don't even have a 0.1.

19:44SPEAKERIt's literally just two, but they are very like quite nice,

19:47SPEAKERyou know, four foot tall standing floor speakers.

19:50SPEAKER- They're equivalent to my clip shows,

19:53SPEAKERbut probably I think they're better

19:54SPEAKER'cause you have the ones that, yeah,

19:55SPEAKERone of the companies they gobbled up, right?

19:57SPEAKER- But they are the old kind of speakers

19:58SPEAKERthat actually take up floor space, you know?

20:00SPEAKER- Yeah.

20:01SPEAKERWell, and we were talking to a mutual friend

20:03SPEAKERwho has a speaker setup that I can only describe

20:05SPEAKERas ridiculous and awe-inspiring.

20:07SPEAKER- It is immense and it looks like something out of time.

20:09SPEAKERLike it could be from the fifties,

20:12SPEAKERit could be from the 1950s or the 2050s.

20:14SPEAKERI really don't know where to place those speakers.

20:16SPEAKERThey are wild looking.

20:17SPEAKER- They were like nine feet tall.

20:19SPEAKERIt looked like they looked almost right up to the ceiling

20:21SPEAKERand are like triangular and amazing and gorgeous.

20:24SPEAKER- Like they made a 77 inch screen that he had just gotten

20:27SPEAKERand mounted on the wall look small.

20:29SPEAKER- Yeah, so I was looking at that

20:31SPEAKERand we were having this conversation, I was like,

20:33SPEAKERoh fuck, they've done the Cheetos thing to us here.

20:37SPEAKER'Cause what has happened, you know,

20:39SPEAKERthe 5.1 speaker stuff started taking, started getting popular

20:43SPEAKERin what like the mid nineties when DVD took off.

20:45SPEAKER- Yeah, that's true.

20:46SPEAKER- 'Cause all of a sudden we had like a media format

20:49SPEAKERthat could deliver 5.1 sound.

20:51SPEAKERWe had consoles starting with the original Xbox

20:53SPEAKERthat could do 5.1 sound.

20:56SPEAKERAnd all of a sudden, like the weirdos at the edges

20:59SPEAKERof the hobby were buying these really annoying,

21:05SPEAKERcomplicated 5.1 speaker setups that had like wires

21:08SPEAKEReverywhere and subwoofers everywhere.

21:11SPEAKERAnd then the audio people, the audio companies

21:14SPEAKERover the last 10 years, 20 years have been slowly refining

21:19SPEAKERthat product line to make it less appealing to,

21:22SPEAKERor as appealing to more normal people

21:25SPEAKERat each step along the way.

21:26SPEAKERSo like we went to wireless subwoofers and we went to,

21:29SPEAKERso you just plug it into power

21:30SPEAKERand it connects to the speakers.

21:32SPEAKERWe had like your home like kit systems

21:36SPEAKERwhere you could buy one box that had all the speakers

21:38SPEAKERand the receiver and everything you needed.

21:39SPEAKER- Yeah, I think it was a home theater in a box

21:41SPEAKERwas an actual brand at one point, I think.

21:43SPEAKER- Those were actual, I think it was a category

21:45SPEAKERmaybe more than a brand, I don't remember.

21:47SPEAKERBut like Iowa and even Sony and the big companies

21:51SPEAKERwould get on that.

21:52SPEAKERAnd like, when you think about it,

21:54SPEAKERthat's interesting for consumers,

21:56SPEAKERfor people who are buying stuff,

21:57SPEAKERbut it's also really interesting for Sony

21:59SPEAKER'cause like with my setup, I bought a Sony receiver

22:02SPEAKERand then I gave a bunch of money to Klipsch

22:04SPEAKERfor some speakers.

22:05SPEAKERWhereas the home theater in a box,

22:07SPEAKERyou just give Sony a whole buttload of money

22:09SPEAKERand they get all of the money.

22:10SPEAKER- Yes, totally.

22:12SPEAKER- So where this is going, where I'm going with this

22:16SPEAKERafter 40 minutes, 30 minutes of podcast

22:19SPEAKERis the soundbar is the perfect distillation.

22:23SPEAKERIt's the perfect Cheetosification of a tech category.

22:26SPEAKER- The soundbar is the Cheeto of the home theater world.

22:29SPEAKER- I think it is.

22:30SPEAKER- Okay.

22:31SPEAKER- I think it is.

22:32SPEAKER- Make your argument.

22:33SPEAKER- Well, so my dad got a new TV on Black Friday

22:36SPEAKERand he was like, "Hey, the speakers in this thing suck."

22:39SPEAKERI was like, "Oh, that's weird.

22:40SPEAKERI haven't listened to a TV speaker in 20 years.

22:41SPEAKERI have no idea what they sound like now."

22:42SPEAKERHe's like, "Your mom can't hear it.

22:45SPEAKERShe has really good hearing."

22:46SPEAKERSo he's like, "I got a soundbar."

22:48SPEAKERI went back to the store and got a soundbar

22:49SPEAKERafter I got this TV.

22:50SPEAKERI was like, "First, don't go to the store

22:52SPEAKER'cause it's like, just don't go to stores right now."

22:55SPEAKERI was like, "Well, I have to go to the store

22:55SPEAKER'cause it's, anyway."

22:58SPEAKERThe soundbar gives you enough of the benefit

23:02SPEAKERof the 5.1 system.

23:04SPEAKERIt's the plain ass, plain Cheeto.

23:06SPEAKERIt's not the puff.

23:07SPEAKERIt's not the Flaming Hot.

23:09SPEAKERIt's not the lime.

23:10SPEAKERIt's not any of the other white cheddar Cheetos.

23:12SPEAKERIt's not the no trans fat baked Cheetos.

23:16SPEAKERIt's just a plain ass Cheeto.

23:18SPEAKER- Nor, nor especially is it the artisanal aged cheddar

23:22SPEAKERthat the Cheeto was like somehow derived from

23:24SPEAKERover thousands of iterations.

23:25SPEAKERYou know what I mean?

23:26SPEAKER- Yeah, no, it's, yeah, no.

23:27SPEAKER- It's on the same family tree as that cheese,

23:30SPEAKERbut it is completely distinct from it.

23:32SPEAKERIt is the most bog standard Cheeto.

23:36SPEAKERIt's the lowest common denominator

23:39SPEAKERof good sound for a TV that you can get.

23:43SPEAKERIt's in one box.

23:44SPEAKER- I feel like I have to jump in here real fast

23:46SPEAKERand just admit that we're probably gonna come off

23:48SPEAKERsounding kind of elitist through parts of this.

23:51SPEAKER- I mean, I think this is about thinking

23:54SPEAKERabout how things are made and sold

23:55SPEAKERmore than being elitist. - Yeah, that's fair.

23:57SPEAKERThat's fair.

23:58SPEAKER- I have no beef in soundbars.

23:58SPEAKER- No, I don't either.

23:59SPEAKERLike, I'm not here.

24:00SPEAKERWell, let me put it this way.

24:01SPEAKERI'm not at all here to knock people

24:02SPEAKERwho want to get a soundbar.

24:03SPEAKERLike, the benefits are obvious.

24:04SPEAKERThe only part where this breaks down

24:07SPEAKERis where the previous markets start to erode

24:10SPEAKERand then disappear because something like the soundbar

24:13SPEAKERdominates so much that suddenly you can't get

24:16SPEAKERthe bigger, more elaborate thing anymore

24:18SPEAKER'cause nobody's making it.

24:19SPEAKER- I mean, look, that happened with phones too.

24:20SPEAKERWhere's your danger hip top, right?

24:23SPEAKERThose are all gone because the iPhone took off.

24:25SPEAKERWhere's your rim blackberry?

24:27SPEAKER- No, I just don't, I'm not sure that I,

24:29SPEAKERI don't know that I would equate a blackberry

24:31SPEAKERwith a nice 5.1 system, but you know.

24:34SPEAKER- I mean, the blackberry was a niche product

24:36SPEAKERfor a very niche market at a time

24:38SPEAKERwhen a competitor didn't exist.

24:40SPEAKERAnd then when a mainstream mass market product

24:42SPEAKERlike the iPhone and Android phones came along,

24:44SPEAKERit completely ate their lunch

24:45SPEAKERbecause it was, you know, they couldn't compete.

24:47SPEAKER- Well, the difference here is I would say like, you know,

24:49SPEAKERif you're a weirdo audiophile,

24:50SPEAKERthere are advantages to like multiple discrete big speakers

24:53SPEAKERthat you're not gonna get from a soundbar.

24:54SPEAKERLike, soundbar is a good example of good enough design.

24:57SPEAKERYou know, like it's good enough for 99% of people.

25:00SPEAKER- Yeah, and I mean, I think I would probably argue

25:02SPEAKERthat the iPhone is in the same category.

25:05SPEAKERLike, if you, if all you do use your phone for is email,

25:09SPEAKERI think 20 years, 15 years of predictive keyboards

25:12SPEAKERhave convinced me that a physical keyboard

25:14SPEAKERis probably better for typing emails

25:17SPEAKERthan a predictive keyboard.

25:18SPEAKER- Sure.

25:19SPEAKER- Ducking, right? - Yeah, you're right, yes.

25:21SPEAKER- Yeah, so, but the better, the trade-off is

25:25SPEAKERthat you get a much more functional multi-purpose device

25:27SPEAKERwith a bigger screen that's like nice for watching video

25:29SPEAKERand playing games or whatever,

25:31SPEAKERin exchange for not having that big stupid keyboard.

25:35SPEAKER- Sure.

25:36SPEAKER- And the soundbar is the same,

25:38SPEAKERthe soundbar is exactly the same, you said it.

25:39SPEAKERLike, it's good enough, it makes the TV sound better,

25:42SPEAKERit hooks on the bottom, the companies love it

25:44SPEAKERbecause it's one box that they sell you

25:46SPEAKERand they get all the money from that.

25:48SPEAKER- Yeah, consumers love it 'cause it's a one-stop solution.

25:50SPEAKERThat's, you know, it's an item as opposed to like

25:52SPEAKERfive speakers and a receiver and a, you know, a bunch cables

25:55SPEAKERand it's just one thing that you buy and it's fine.

25:58SPEAKER- Well, and-- - And you just hook it up

25:59SPEAKERand you go.

26:00SPEAKER- And because they attach directly to the TV in most cases,

26:03SPEAKERevery time you buy a TV, a new TV,

26:05SPEAKERin the old days, you upgraded your receiver

26:07SPEAKERand your speakers every 10 or 20 years probably.

26:10SPEAKER- Oh, that-- - Now you upgrade 'em

26:11SPEAKERevery time you get a new TV.

26:12SPEAKER- That is how that goes now, isn't it?

26:14SPEAKER- Yeah. - So I have been so,

26:15SPEAKERI mean, I've, not only do I have old-fashioned speakers

26:17SPEAKERbut they're 12 years old, like, that tells you

26:19SPEAKERhow much I keep up with soundbar tech.

26:20SPEAKERBut like, that is totally how it goes now, right?

26:24SPEAKERLike the TV manufacturer also makes an accompanying soundbar

26:27SPEAKERthat like, fits on the unit?

26:29SPEAKER- It changes at different price points.

26:31SPEAKERLike if you're buying a Vizio TV, buy the Vizio soundbar

26:33SPEAKERand it clamps onto the bottom.

26:35SPEAKERIf you're buying, like you can,

26:37SPEAKERSonos makes really nice soundbars.

26:39SPEAKER- You can still get like a nice standalone Sonos

26:41SPEAKERthat doesn't have to bolt onto the TV.

26:43SPEAKERBut what I mean is that option is there, right?

26:44SPEAKERThat it's basically a package deal where you get TV

26:47SPEAKERand soundbar from the same company, right?

26:49SPEAKER- Well, and all the TV people had to do

26:51SPEAKERis make the speakers in the TV so shitty

26:53SPEAKERthat even people with good hearing

26:54SPEAKERwouldn't be able to hear the TV

26:56SPEAKERif you didn't spend 300 bucks extra on this.

26:58SPEAKERI mean, this is, in reality,

26:59SPEAKERthis is why you can buy a $400 55-inch TV that's pretty good.

27:04SPEAKERIt's because they sell your data to advertisers

27:07SPEAKERand you buy another $250 TV speaker

27:11SPEAKERthat hooks onto the bottom of the thing.

27:12SPEAKER- Yeah.

27:14SPEAKER- Audio, all the examples, I'm curious.

27:17SPEAKEROkay, so now that we've established this idea,

27:18SPEAKERI hope it makes sense in some way, shape, or form

27:20SPEAKERto the listeners and not just you

27:22SPEAKERwho've been talking about this for a while.

27:25SPEAKERIt feels like this happens a lot in audio spaces.

27:29SPEAKER- Yeah, I can see it.

27:30SPEAKER- Headphones, we can talk about the AirPod Max,

27:34SPEAKERwhich is, I think, a profoundly ridiculous product.

27:38SPEAKER- Yeah, well, sticking with the soundbar example

27:41SPEAKERfor a minute before we move on,

27:42SPEAKERthere's a direct comparison to that statistical analysis

27:45SPEAKERthat was going on in food that we were talking about,

27:47SPEAKERwhich is, there's a part of that article

27:49SPEAKERwhere they talk about some work

27:50SPEAKERthat Moskowitz's consulting firm did for Dr. Pepper,

27:53SPEAKERwhere they talk about optimizing the ingredients

27:56SPEAKERto save the company money by plotting the,

28:00SPEAKERit's not a bliss point, it's more of a bliss range,

28:02SPEAKERand it's like, you can achieve the same efficacy with,

28:05SPEAKERyou know.

28:06SPEAKER- It's like everything under this curve is good enough.

28:09SPEAKER- Totally, let me just pull up the-

28:10SPEAKER- Yeah, statistically okay.

28:12SPEAKER- The number that came up,

28:14SPEAKERinstead of using two milliliters of Dr. Pepper

28:17SPEAKERsyrup flavoring, for instance,

28:19SPEAKERthey could use 1.69 milliliters and achieve the same effect.

28:22SPEAKER- Nice.

28:23SPEAKER- And they go on to mention, you know,

28:24SPEAKERlike that's millions in savings to a company

28:26SPEAKERlike Dr. Pepper and manufacturing costs and blah, blah, blah.

28:28SPEAKERBut like, it's kind of similar with soundbars, right?

28:30SPEAKEROf like, you can reduce the size of the woofers

28:33SPEAKERand tweeters by X percent,

28:34SPEAKERand 99% of people are not going to care

28:37SPEAKERabout the change in sound quality, right?

28:39SPEAKER- Or you can put in a DAC that has a little bit of smarts

28:43SPEAKERthat cost you an extra 30 cents per unit

28:47SPEAKERthat then lets you manipulate the sound programmatically

28:51SPEAKERwith math rather than having additional speakers in,

28:54SPEAKERwhich would cost a lot more money to add

28:55SPEAKERand design and all that.

28:56SPEAKER- Totally, totally.

28:58SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, when you start looking at this stuff,

29:01SPEAKERthe thing about this is like you start looking at it

29:04SPEAKERand it applies to everything.

29:05SPEAKERIt applies to games and movies.

29:07SPEAKERIt applies to how everything is marketed to you.

29:10SPEAKERTV shows, TV shows are the great example right now

29:13SPEAKER'cause with Amazon, Netflix, Hulu, NBC, Warner Brothers,

29:17SPEAKERDisney, is that it?

29:20SPEAKERI feel like there's a few more that I'm forgetting.

29:22SPEAKER- That are doing like streaming services?

29:23SPEAKER- All these companies fighting for your time,

29:25SPEAKERlike assume ESPN gets sports.

29:27SPEAKER- NBC's got a streaming service on the way

29:29SPEAKERor maybe it already came out.

29:30SPEAKER- It's out, Peacock.

29:31SPEAKER- Peacock, did that happen?

29:32SPEAKER- Somebody signed up for it with my email address.

29:33SPEAKERIt's been great, I get all sorts of notifications.

29:35SPEAKER- Interesting.

29:37SPEAKER- Presumably also I have a free Peacock account.

29:39SPEAKERI don't know, I forgot my password on that

29:41SPEAKERand find out later.

29:44SPEAKERSo these companies are spending billions and billions

29:46SPEAKERof dollars on new TV shows and they're drilling ever deeper

29:50SPEAKERinto these niches, into the prego chunky spaghetti sauce

29:53SPEAKERniches to get like, Umbrella Academy is superheroes,

29:59SPEAKERbut they're a little gothy and there's some supernatural

30:02SPEAKERand family drama and whatever else.

30:05SPEAKERThe Boys is superheroes, but the superheroes

30:07SPEAKERare the bad guys and it's really violent

30:09SPEAKERand it has, what's his name?

30:15SPEAKERBones.

30:17SPEAKER- Carl Urban.

30:17SPEAKER- Yeah, exactly, Carl Urban.

30:20SPEAKER- I didn't know he was in that.

30:22SPEAKERI didn't know he was in that, I need to watch that.

30:23SPEAKER- Oh dude, that show is fantastic.

30:25SPEAKERYou'll feel bad for liking it, it's so good.

30:28SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, it sounds like I'll also just feel bad.

30:31SPEAKER- But anyway, and then there's 25 different superhero shows

30:35SPEAKERright now and each one is segmented out

30:37SPEAKERin this very specific different way and as a result,

30:40SPEAKERwe're finding out minute by minute exactly what it is

30:43SPEAKERthat everybody likes about the difference between Watchmen

30:45SPEAKERand Doom Patrol and Boys and Umbrella Academy

30:49SPEAKERand I feel like there's at least three or four more.

30:51SPEAKER- I was just like being able to serve the content

30:54SPEAKERto your audience programmatically.

30:57SPEAKER- And know how long they watch it.

30:58SPEAKER- That's what I mean, as opposed to like, you know,

31:00SPEAKERyou make a DVD sale, it's a point of sale

31:02SPEAKERwhen they have a physical object and you don't know

31:03SPEAKERwhat happens with it after that, right?

31:05SPEAKERBut like you have, I bet you have way finer detail

31:09SPEAKERin the data than we even think, right?

31:11SPEAKERLike I bet they're tracking stuff

31:12SPEAKERthat you would never even think of.

31:13SPEAKERLike maybe they paused on this specific part

31:16SPEAKERway more often than the other parts, you know?

31:18SPEAKERLike, I mean, stuff that goes beyond just like

31:20SPEAKERhow long did they watch a given episode or whatever.

31:22SPEAKER- This is where, there's a graph somewhere

31:25SPEAKERfor each TV show on Netflix, I assure you,

31:27SPEAKERthat shows at what point in which episode

31:29SPEAKERthe majority of the audience fell off?

31:31SPEAKER- Totally, like the data mining,

31:34SPEAKERlike the data goldmine that these things represent

31:37SPEAKERis probably kind of frightening.

31:39SPEAKER- Well, and so in some way, the TV stuff is relatively new

31:44SPEAKERcompared to what Facebook and Twitter

31:46SPEAKERand all of those sites discuss.

31:48SPEAKERAll the sites that put a bug on every web page

31:50SPEAKERon the internet have been doing for a decade.

31:54SPEAKERWe played a game at Maximum PC 15 years ago called,

31:58SPEAKERyou know, who knows you better, your partner or Google,

32:01SPEAKERwhere we loaded up our Google pages,

32:04SPEAKERlike our Google, what Google knows about,

32:06SPEAKERor what Facebook and Google know about you pages,

32:08SPEAKERand then like asked our partners what,

32:12SPEAKERlike how we felt about specific topics

32:15SPEAKERas evidenced by what Facebook and Google thought about us.

32:19SPEAKERAnd it was fascinating.

32:21SPEAKERAnd like, I have a good relationship with my partner.

32:26SPEAKERWe had, she had no idea about most of the stuff

32:28SPEAKERthat I was into according to Google and Facebook.

32:32SPEAKERI can't remember the specific examples

32:33SPEAKER'cause it was a long time ago.

32:35SPEAKER- And maybe personal, but anyway.

32:36SPEAKER- Yes, that's a bit, yes.

32:39SPEAKER- So yeah, but like headphones obviously fit in this.

32:43SPEAKER- Like, yeah, you mentioned the AirPods Max.

32:45SPEAKERI haven't kept up with them too much other than to hear,

32:48SPEAKERdo I understand that they are $500?

32:50SPEAKER- 550 bucks.

32:51SPEAKER- That sounds excessive for headphones to me.

32:54SPEAKER- No analog cable, you have to buy a special adapter.

32:58SPEAKER- What?

32:58SPEAKERWhat do they have, just a lightning port?

33:00SPEAKER- Bluetooth.

33:01SPEAKER- Or a, well they have to have some kind of connector.

33:03SPEAKER- Well, it has a USB-C, so you plug a USB-C cable in

33:06SPEAKERand it has a, presumably the special cable has a DAC in it.

33:09SPEAKERAnd that lets you use it with normal stuff.

33:11SPEAKER- They are almost there on USB-C, huh?

33:15SPEAKER- I mean, for everything but the phones.

33:16SPEAKER- That's what I mean, like that's the final piece, right?

33:18SPEAKERLike they'll probably get there in the next phone or two.

33:21SPEAKER- I think they're just not gonna have a port in the future.

33:23SPEAKER- Wait, what?

33:24SPEAKER- No, they'll just go all MagSafe.

33:26SPEAKER- You have to put a wireless charger in the box

33:28SPEAKERat that point, don't you?

33:30SPEAKER- Presumably.

33:33SPEAKERI mean, they might for a generation or two and then stop.

33:35SPEAKER- All right, so what's up with AirPods Max?

33:38SPEAKER- So AirPods Max are over the year headphones.

33:41SPEAKER- Yeah, full headband and everything.

33:42SPEAKER- Full headband, they use the same, what is it?

33:45SPEAKERH1 chip that the AirPods and AirPods Pro use

33:50SPEAKERand all the Beats headphones at this point.

33:52SPEAKERThat makes it easy to pair and lets you switch the headphones

33:54SPEAKERseamlessly between like your Apple TV and your Mac

33:56SPEAKERand your phone and your tablet and your watch,

33:59SPEAKERwhich is actually like the main selling point for me

34:02SPEAKERof any Apple or Beats headphone at this point

34:05SPEAKERthat's wireless.

34:07SPEAKERThey come with a carrying case,

34:08SPEAKERso when you put them in the carrying case,

34:09SPEAKERit goes to sleep and it looks like a purse or a bra

34:11SPEAKERdepending on your perspective.

34:15SPEAKERAnd they cost $550, the battery is not user replaceable,

34:18SPEAKERit costs $80 to replace it out of warranty.

34:21SPEAKERAnd I don't understand,

34:24SPEAKERactually I do understand who this is for.

34:27SPEAKERIt's a weird product.

34:29SPEAKER- Think so, who is it for?

34:30SPEAKERShould I ask, do you not wanna say?

34:32SPEAKER- No, I'll say.

34:33SPEAKERSo would you buy a pair of Beats headphones Brad?

34:37SPEAKER- Probably not.

34:38SPEAKERWhat are those things run like 250 or something like that?

34:40SPEAKER- No, they're very reasonable.

34:41SPEAKERThey started like 80 bucks for AirPods and AirPods and go up.

34:44SPEAKER- Okay, I thought they were,

34:46SPEAKERI've almost looked at their Bluetooth earbud type situation,

34:50SPEAKERwhich is pretty pricey, but I don't know.

34:53SPEAKER- Why do you think you wouldn't buy them?

34:54SPEAKERIs it because of the sound?

34:55SPEAKERIs it because of quality or is it just a brand association?

34:58SPEAKER- I'm not all over that price range.

35:00SPEAKERI might actually, I don't know.

35:01SPEAKERLike it's not the name I think of

35:03SPEAKERwhen I think of headphones, I'll say that.

35:05SPEAKER- Would you buy Skullcandy headphones?

35:07SPEAKER- Definitely not.

35:08SPEAKERI know next to nothing about them,

35:09SPEAKERbut just based on name alone, no.

35:11SPEAKER- Okay, so I think Apple owns Beats, obviously.

35:16SPEAKERThey have a substantial grip on the market with Beats.

35:20SPEAKERMy theory is that there is a substantial size audience

35:25SPEAKERthat probably looks at Beats as a product

35:27SPEAKERfor people who are younger than them

35:28SPEAKERand will not consider it outright.

35:30SPEAKERI'm definitely in that category.

35:32SPEAKERPartly audio snobbery and partly age.

35:35SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, like I would even add to that,

35:37SPEAKERlike I'm not cool enough for Beats, you know?

35:42SPEAKERDoes that make sense?

35:42SPEAKER- I think you probably are, but yeah, exactly.

35:45SPEAKERLook, Dre's Beats, Dre's older than both of us.

35:49SPEAKER- Wait, he co-founded Beats and he created Beats.

35:53SPEAKERHe has a vested interest or had one.

35:55SPEAKER- He made a billion dollars selling Beats to Apple.

35:58SPEAKER- He sure did.

36:01SPEAKER- Yeah, the billionaire rapper.

36:02SPEAKER- He's, Dre is the kind of cool that transcends age.

36:05SPEAKERI'm afraid I haven't quite gotten there yet.

36:07SPEAKER- That's true, that's true.

36:09SPEAKEROkay, so I think that they are looking

36:12SPEAKERat building a product line targeted toward people like us

36:15SPEAKERwho are not cool enough for Beats that have money

36:18SPEAKERand are willing to spend it on stupid things

36:20SPEAKERlike $550 headphones.

36:21SPEAKER- It's like a prestige item, right?

36:23SPEAKERThis is probably targeted at like the Bose audience, right?

36:26SPEAKER- I would think so, yeah.

36:28SPEAKER- High-end business traveler, my guess is that this ends up

36:33SPEAKERwithin the next two or three years coming down

36:36SPEAKERinto a, all the way down to $100, $150-ish

36:40SPEAKERover-the-ear headphones to compete with the AirPods.

36:43SPEAKER'Cause they've had really good success selling AirPods

36:48SPEAKERas a lifestyle, here's a way to listen to music

36:51SPEAKERwhile you're walking around.

36:52SPEAKERGina walks around the house with either TV or music on

36:57SPEAKERwith her AirPods in most of the day, often.

37:01SPEAKER- My god, my girlfriend does the same thing,

37:02SPEAKERit drives me crazy.

37:03SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause she has her hair down, it's down over here,

37:05SPEAKERso I know I get there and I'm just talking to her

37:07SPEAKERand she's like, "Were you talking to me?"

37:09SPEAKEROh my god, this is so annoying.

37:11SPEAKER- I know the feeling.

37:12SPEAKERSo what do you think, I'm sitting here kind of tabbing

37:16SPEAKERthrough the feature set on the AirPods Max,

37:18SPEAKERwhat do you think they sacrifice as they step down

37:20SPEAKERin price range?

37:23SPEAKER'Cause that's the whole process of that analysis

37:25SPEAKERwe were talking about is what do you have wiggle room on

37:28SPEAKERwith consumers, what don't you, what can and can't go,

37:30SPEAKERwhat do they need more of, et cetera, et cetera.

37:32SPEAKER- Well, so first off, I wanna clarify something.

37:34SPEAKERI don't have any beef with people buying

37:35SPEAKERreally expensive headphones if they're worth,

37:37SPEAKERif they do something.

37:38SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.

37:39SPEAKER- And these may be great, I don't know,

37:40SPEAKERI haven't used them. - It's your money,

37:42SPEAKERI will say that I have bought one $300 pair of headphones

37:45SPEAKERin my life that turned out to be a massive mistake,

37:47SPEAKERso I don't know that I will repeat that mistake.

37:54SPEAKER- Having had the, there's a video of me listening

37:57SPEAKERto a pair of $20,000 headphones at CES one year

37:59SPEAKERin a soundproof booth, and I'm not in the income bracket

38:04SPEAKERto afford $20,000 headphones, but if I was,

38:08SPEAKERand I spent a lot more time listening to music

38:10SPEAKERthan I do right now, I would probably think about it

38:11SPEAKER'cause it was, I have bad hearing and it was transcendent.

38:15SPEAKER- In that price range I could see it, let's say.

38:18SPEAKER- It felt like listening, you know how when you listen

38:23SPEAKERto live music and it sounds really cool,

38:25SPEAKERbut then like you always hear the others,

38:26SPEAKERlike you hear people rustling around in the room

38:28SPEAKERand like the weird echoes off the back of the room

38:30SPEAKERand stuff like that, it felt like that,

38:32SPEAKERbut perfectly mastered with no other sound,

38:34SPEAKERso all you were doing is being ensconced by music,

38:36SPEAKERand it was a really good brain feel, like it was awesome.

38:40SPEAKER- For significant five figures, I believe it.

38:42SPEAKER- Yeah, for 20, for more than both of my cars together, yes.

38:46SPEAKER- But you know, actually like this is maybe tangential

38:48SPEAKERto this topic or sort of related,

38:50SPEAKERbut the headphones I got for like,

38:52SPEAKERwhen I bought them, $300 felt like an awful lot

38:54SPEAKERfor headphones, but I tried them.

38:56SPEAKERI tried them and they were super nice,

38:58SPEAKERand I was like, ah, you know, this hurts,

38:59SPEAKERbut I'm gonna treat myself,

39:01SPEAKERand it ended up being the build quality on them

39:03SPEAKERthat was nowhere near up to snuff,

39:07SPEAKERconsistent with the price range, and they're unusable now,

39:11SPEAKERand so like, I don't trust products in this price range

39:16SPEAKERto be as good as the price implies they are,

39:18SPEAKERdoes that make sense?

39:18SPEAKER- No, I think that's fair.

39:19SPEAKERThis was a pair of Bowers and Wilkins headphones, and-

39:22SPEAKER- Oh, is it the flat pad ones?

39:24SPEAKER- Maybe.

39:25SPEAKER- The Bluetooth ones?

39:26SPEAKER- I wanna say, no, they're wired headphones.

39:28SPEAKERI wanna say you guys tested them, actually.

39:30SPEAKER- Yeah, normally it's those for years.

39:32SPEAKER- The ones I had. - On ear or over ear?

39:35SPEAKER- They're on ear, they're kind of smaller,

39:37SPEAKERbut there's an adhesive that they used in them

39:40SPEAKERthat became so like, it kind of leaked out

39:42SPEAKERand became so gummy over time

39:44SPEAKERthat they're like unwearable, they're disgusting,

39:45SPEAKERthey're super sticky, like-

39:47SPEAKER- Did you call them?

39:48SPEAKER- No, I probably should.

39:49SPEAKERI think they were out of warranty.

39:50SPEAKER- I would have on that, 'cause like often-

39:53SPEAKER- Maybe it's, well, I shouldn't say it's my fault

39:55SPEAKERbecause they shouldn't have been disgusting in the first place

39:57SPEAKERbut like, at a point I just didn't,

40:00SPEAKERI have enough other headphones, so I was like, whatever.

40:03SPEAKER- Yeah, and the whole world went buds rather than phones too.

40:07SPEAKER- Yeah, I kinda like things

40:07SPEAKERstarted moving in a different direction,

40:09SPEAKERbut like, you know what I mean though?

40:10SPEAKERIt's like, I worry about there being some gotcha

40:13SPEAKERin a product, even that expensive at this point

40:15SPEAKERthat I'm afraid to commit that kind of money to something.

40:17SPEAKER- Well, so to give you a counterpoint,

40:18SPEAKERI bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 580s in like 2002

40:23SPEAKERthat I've replaced the pads,

40:25SPEAKERbut like the cup pads and the headband pad on twice.

40:28SPEAKERI broke the plastic and super glued it back on

40:32SPEAKERonce or twice now, and like, they're still great.

40:34SPEAKERThey sound good, they work really well.

40:35SPEAKERI've replaced the cables a couple of times.

40:37SPEAKERLike, if you get the right thing at that price range,

40:40SPEAKERyou can get something that's really, really compelling.

40:42SPEAKER- Yeah.

40:43SPEAKER- But there is a lot of kind of weird stuff out there.

40:46SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, that was part and parcel

40:47SPEAKERwith this conversation we were having

40:49SPEAKERwith our friend about speakers, you know?

40:50SPEAKER- Yeah.

40:51SPEAKER- Like talking about, you know, receivers,

40:53SPEAKERAV receivers from the, well,

40:54SPEAKERthey were just A receivers in the 70s,

40:56SPEAKERbut receivers that you've had for 40 years

40:59SPEAKERthat still sound amazing, you know,

41:00SPEAKERlike better than anything you can get now,

41:01SPEAKERlike this kind of prototypical example

41:04SPEAKERis that West German made a radio that you've got.

41:08SPEAKER- The Telefunken?

41:09SPEAKER- Yes.

41:10SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a AM/FM shortwave radio

41:14SPEAKERthat my grandfather bought in like 1960 something.

41:19SPEAKERAnd they used, he and my grandmother was English,

41:22SPEAKERand they used it to listen to BBC World shortwave

41:26SPEAKERin the living room of their house in Alexandria.

41:28SPEAKERAnd I mean, maybe for others,

41:29SPEAKERmaybe they were tuning into like Russian numbers stations

41:31SPEAKERand stuff too, but yeah, like that thing,

41:35SPEAKERthat thing hasn't had any service ever as far as I know,

41:39SPEAKERand is 50 years old still works.

41:41SPEAKER- Yeah, like I think the way you put it was that it's like,

41:43SPEAKERit's so tremendously over-engineered

41:46SPEAKERto be better than it needed to be.

41:47SPEAKER- Yeah.

41:48SPEAKER- And like, that's not,

41:49SPEAKERI don't know that that exists anymore, right?

41:51SPEAKERAt least not in this kind of consumer product space,

41:53SPEAKERlike everything is just barely as good as it needs to be,

41:56SPEAKERor perhaps even like slightly worse than it should be.

41:59SPEAKER- So I feel like, I can't remember,

42:02SPEAKERone of the Steve Jobs biographies I read

42:04SPEAKERtalked about Miele appliances at length,

42:08SPEAKERbecause like that, it's a German brand, I think,

42:10SPEAKERand his argument was that that was one of the places

42:13SPEAKERthat that kind of engineering still happens.

42:16SPEAKER- Imer Besser is there, I just looked him up,

42:18SPEAKERis there, that's my terrible German accent,

42:20SPEAKERthat's their motto.

42:21SPEAKER- What is it?

42:22SPEAKERWhat does it mean?

42:23SPEAKER- Does that mean always best or something along those lines?

42:25SPEAKERAlways the best?

42:26SPEAKER- Something like that, that sounds right.

42:28SPEAKER- Of that nature.

42:30SPEAKER- But I mean, look, there's a bunch of things

42:34SPEAKERwe can talk about here in terms of how,

42:37SPEAKERlike the just barely good enough engineering

42:40SPEAKERends up being a real inequality driver,

42:42SPEAKERbecause, you know, the classic example there

42:46SPEAKERis a pair of work boots, right?

42:47SPEAKERIf you buy a pair of $300 work boots,

42:48SPEAKERI bought a pair of $300 boots about 10 years ago,

42:50SPEAKERand they still look like they're brand new,

42:52SPEAKERI wear them all the time in the winter,

42:54SPEAKERthey're very comfortable, they keep my foot safe,

42:56SPEAKERand I'll have them probably for the rest of my life

42:59SPEAKERat this point, but if you buy a pair of $100 work boots,

43:03SPEAKERbecause you can't afford a pair of $300 work boots

43:05SPEAKERat any given moment in time, those are good for maybe a year.

43:09SPEAKERLike they wear out, they get busted, the soles break off,

43:12SPEAKERwhatever it happens to be, and as a result,

43:16SPEAKERthe people who can afford the $300 work boots

43:17SPEAKERbuy one pair of work boots over a 20 plus year period,

43:22SPEAKERand the people who can't buy new boots every year.

43:24SPEAKER- Yeah, like that's one of the big facets,

43:25SPEAKERand that's one of the big reasons that,

43:30SPEAKERlet me rephrase that, like that's one of the causes

43:33SPEAKERof the like hidden costs of being

43:35SPEAKERsort of economically disadvantaged, right?

43:36SPEAKER'Cause like, it's not just in the moment, you know?

43:40SPEAKERIt's that over time, costs increase over time

43:43SPEAKERbecause of aspects like that.

43:45SPEAKER- It's that you buy a new winter coat every year

43:47SPEAKER'cause the cheap coats last about two years,

43:49SPEAKERand instead of buying one nice coat that lasts you 10 years.

43:53SPEAKERWe can talk about how this,

43:54SPEAKERoh, you asked a question about headphones.

43:56SPEAKERSo I think that the industrial,

43:59SPEAKERlike these are, the Air Maxes are very big,

44:01SPEAKERthey come with a case.

44:02SPEAKERThe case is the first thing that goes,

44:05SPEAKERthey get smaller and probably on-ear

44:08SPEAKERor just barely over-ear,

44:09SPEAKERlike a vertical cup instead of a round cup, stuff like that.

44:13SPEAKER- You think maybe noise canceling

44:15SPEAKERis something that they ditch in the lower tier?

44:17SPEAKER- I think noise canceling is pretty vital.

44:20SPEAKERThey may, maybe if they go to a real low tier,

44:23SPEAKERbut my guess is you're looking at a more compact,

44:26SPEAKERless comfortable, probably less battery life.

44:31SPEAKER- Sure, I can see that. - Maybe a physical switch

44:33SPEAKERinstead of the on-off in the case type thing

44:35SPEAKERthat they do now.

44:37SPEAKER- Noise canceling is a feature

44:38SPEAKERthat I have been surprised to see

44:39SPEAKERas becoming like a value add

44:42SPEAKERas opposed to like the focal point of the product.

44:44SPEAKERYou know what I mean?

44:45SPEAKERLike 10 years ago or whatever,

44:47SPEAKERlast time I bought noise canceling headphones,

44:48SPEAKERlike you were buying noise canceling headphones.

44:51SPEAKERYou know, you were not buying headphones

44:52SPEAKERthat happens you have noise canceling in them.

44:54SPEAKERAnd like, I mean, that's cool.

44:55SPEAKERLike that's a good thing to see it,

44:57SPEAKERyou know, trickling out across the broader product line,

45:01SPEAKERbut that's not something I expected to see.

45:03SPEAKER- I mean, I think it's become cheaper to implement

45:05SPEAKERbecause you have microphones on everything now.

45:07SPEAKER- Yes, and I'm sure the processing,

45:09SPEAKERthe filtering circuitry is also way cheaper

45:12SPEAKERand that kind of thing.

45:13SPEAKER- Just probably buying some Qualcomm chip off the shelf now

45:16SPEAKERversus Bose designing their own 30 years ago, 20 years ago.

45:20SPEAKERI think phones, I think you see this stuff happening

45:22SPEAKERin phones, probably more in the Android space,

45:24SPEAKERbut even in iOS, like there are what,

45:26SPEAKERfive different sizes or iPhone now

45:28SPEAKERfrom the SE through the 12, the 12 Pro, the Max,

45:31SPEAKERlike plus all the old generations, like there is.

45:36SPEAKERAnd then if you look at what's happening on Android

45:38SPEAKERand you know, there's folding phones,

45:40SPEAKERthere's the Windows phone that folds,

45:42SPEAKERthere's the Android phone that Microsoft makes that folds.

45:45SPEAKERIt's not a Windows phone

45:46SPEAKER'cause rest in peace Windows phone.

45:50SPEAKER- Gone too soon.

45:51SPEAKER- Yeah, but like there's phones with pop-up cameras,

45:53SPEAKERthere's phones with flashes, there's phones with telephones.

45:56SPEAKERYeah, like there's everybody's trying to figure out

45:59SPEAKERwhat the, especially in the Android space,

46:02SPEAKERwhat the edge is that's gonna let them, you know,

46:05SPEAKERtake over a chunk of Samsung and Google's market

46:08SPEAKERand nobody seems to be finding it, so.

46:10SPEAKER- And like Apple is competing with that arms race,

46:13SPEAKEReven though they're not directly in that market, right?

46:15SPEAKER- I feel like kind of-- - And they kind of are.

46:17SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't, I would,

46:19SPEAKERone of the things I haven't seen in years is data

46:21SPEAKERon how many people actually shift back and forth

46:23SPEAKERbetween Android and iOS.

46:25SPEAKERLike the cost of making that shift is so high now

46:27SPEAKERthat I wonder if we've reached a point where,

46:31SPEAKERlike in the Android market, Google and Samsung

46:33SPEAKERare trying to steal market share from each other

46:35SPEAKERand everybody else is trying to chip away at one of them.

46:38SPEAKER'Cause it's not like there's new smartphone customers

46:40SPEAKERout there other than the people who age into the market.

46:46SPEAKERSo like, I don't, I don't,

46:48SPEAKERif you think about Android phones, you don't see,

46:51SPEAKERyou don't see Google doing, hey, iOS users,

46:54SPEAKERthis phone is so much better than yours anymore

46:56SPEAKERbecause all of the stuff that is easy to explain

46:58SPEAKERin that kind of space is, doesn't apply anymore.

47:02SPEAKER- Yeah. - Yeah.

47:04SPEAKER- It's been weird to me.

47:05SPEAKERI don't know if this is kind of tangential also,

47:07SPEAKERbut the kind of broadening of some of the,

47:10SPEAKERthe Apple product lines.

47:11SPEAKER- How so?

47:12SPEAKER- The muddying of, you know, well, like you said,

47:14SPEAKERlike there are how many different sizes of phone now?

47:16SPEAKERLike three minimum?

47:18SPEAKER- Oh yeah.

47:19SPEAKER- Like, like they've just kind of, they've--

47:23SPEAKER- I guess 12 and 12 Pro are the same size.

47:24SPEAKERIt's the 12 Pro Max and the 12,

47:27SPEAKERthe SE that are different sizes.

47:28SPEAKER- Wait, isn't there also a mini?

47:30SPEAKER- Oh yeah, 12 mini.

47:31SPEAKER- That's new, right?

47:32SPEAKERThat's what I mean.

47:33SPEAKERLike they keep adding on more tiers

47:34SPEAKERand more complexity to the product.

47:35SPEAKERLike the post jobs offering has gotten,

47:37SPEAKERI mean, post jobs era has gotten so much,

47:40SPEAKERthe offering has gotten so much more complicated

47:43SPEAKERto keep up with, I guess.

47:44SPEAKERLike, have you ever, I've tried to,

47:47SPEAKERI've tried to source this 'cause I swear I read it one time

47:49SPEAKERand maybe it's apocryphal and I haven't been able to find it.

47:52SPEAKERMaybe it's in the Isaacson book, I forget.

47:54SPEAKER- Okay.

47:56SPEAKER- The story about when he came back to Apple,

47:57SPEAKERwhen it was like 90 days from bankruptcy or whatever it was,

48:01SPEAKERthey like went in there and basically just said on day one,

48:04SPEAKERlike we're flushing every product we make.

48:07SPEAKERAnd he drew like a plus sign, like a cross

48:10SPEAKERand labeled the rows desktop and laptop

48:14SPEAKERand then labeled the columns consumer and professional.

48:16SPEAKERHe was like, we are gonna make four products.

48:18SPEAKERWe are gonna make a desktop and a laptop for consumers

48:21SPEAKERand for professionals and that's all we're gonna do.

48:23SPEAKERAnd like, it feels like they've gone completely

48:27SPEAKERalmost to the other end of the spectrum, not quite,

48:28SPEAKERbut like they really have gone back in that direction

48:31SPEAKERof trying to make like all things for all people.

48:34SPEAKER- Well, I think, I mean, I think that's a natural,

48:36SPEAKERthat's the natural evolution of capitalism, right?

48:38SPEAKER- Sure, oh yeah, of course.

48:40SPEAKER- If you, like it's, the products will expand

48:43SPEAKERto fill all available niches, all available segments.

48:46SPEAKER- Yes, and the existing products must continue to grow

48:48SPEAKERin market share in perpetuity or they are worthless.

48:51SPEAKER- I don't, so that is the thing that I don't think is true.

48:54SPEAKERI think that Apple has two types of products

48:57SPEAKERin some way, right?

48:59SPEAKEROne is the one that is the juggernaut,

49:02SPEAKERthe iPhone or to a lesser extent,

49:04SPEAKERthe MacBook and the iPad and the Apple Watch and the Air,

49:07SPEAKERactually the AirPods probably count

49:09SPEAKERas a juggernaut at this point.

49:10SPEAKERThe other side of it is the products

49:15SPEAKERthat are like the test beds and the trial balloons.

49:18SPEAKERAnd often they'll start as one and become the other, right?

49:21SPEAKERLike the iPhone started as that.

49:23SPEAKER- Well, that's the goal for everything, right?

49:24SPEAKERLike the company, ideally the company wants

49:26SPEAKERto sell nothing but juggernauts.

49:28SPEAKER- And like seeing HomePod move from a $300 huge thing

49:32SPEAKERto a $100 desk size, like small thing is an indicator

49:37SPEAKERthat they think that market is probably ready

49:39SPEAKERto go a little bit more mainstream.

49:41SPEAKERNow, the interesting thing is they're competing

49:44SPEAKERwith Amazon who gives away Alexa units

49:49SPEAKERfor practically nothing and Google who if you sign up

49:52SPEAKERfor a data plan, like a cloud storage plan,

49:54SPEAKERwill just send you free Nest Homes.

49:57SPEAKERIt remains to be seen how this works out

50:00SPEAKERfor Apple in that market.

50:05SPEAKERYeah, so anyway, I guess we have some more examples

50:07SPEAKERbut I don't think we need to get into them.

50:09SPEAKERI'm curious what other people think.

50:12SPEAKERLike I'm looking at the Stream Deck on my desk

50:14SPEAKERand that's an example 'cause it launched with 15 buttons

50:17SPEAKERand then they immediately came out with like a six button one

50:19SPEAKERand then a 50 button, 30 button one or whatever.

50:22SPEAKER- 32, I think.

50:23SPEAKER- 32, yeah, whatever the big boy is.

50:26SPEAKERLike this hits everyone, every product category I get.

50:30SPEAKERThey're like raspberry pies.

50:34SPEAKERThere's four generations.

50:35SPEAKERYou can get the zero which has hardly any headers

50:38SPEAKERand no like ethernet port.

50:39SPEAKERYou can get the, at some point there'll be a max

50:42SPEAKERthat has two ethernet ports

50:43SPEAKERand is basically your next PF sense router.

50:45SPEAKER- It came out, I mean, when the four launched,

50:47SPEAKERthey said we have a one, two and a four gigabyte model.

50:49SPEAKERYou don't really need the four, that's for developers.

50:51SPEAKERAnd now there's an eight.

50:52SPEAKERNow they've put out an eight gigabyte model

50:53SPEAKERjust because it's what people want

50:54SPEAKERand that's where the memory supply is at.

50:57SPEAKER- Yeah, it's probably as cheap to make the eight

51:00SPEAKERas the one at this point,

51:01SPEAKERgiven the memory chips that are available.

51:03SPEAKER- Also, they're making stuff like coax hats

51:06SPEAKERfor that thing now and SATA hats.

51:08SPEAKER- Can you get another ethernet hat?

51:10SPEAKERCould you run PSX on a Pi?

51:12SPEAKER- Maybe, I doubt it's- - Is it gonna be fast enough?

51:14SPEAKER- I bet it's not performant enough.

51:16SPEAKER- Well, also, BSD is not great on ARM still,

51:20SPEAKERso I doubt, I don't think there is an ARM PF sense right now.

51:25SPEAKER- Okay.

51:26SPEAKER- I could be wrong, but yeah, totally what you mean.

51:31SPEAKERElegance and simplicity and robustness

51:33SPEAKERin a product lines don't last, right?

51:35SPEAKERLike everything always gets sort of,

51:38SPEAKERI don't wanna use the phrase dumbed down,

51:39SPEAKERbut you know what I mean?

51:40SPEAKERLike modified, I think is the right word, right?

51:44SPEAKERLike it just becomes the thing that most people want

51:47SPEAKERthat can be sold for the cheapest.

51:49SPEAKER- And it's such a weird,

51:51SPEAKERlike it's so weird when you see stuff

51:52SPEAKERthat jumps outside of those silos.

51:54SPEAKERSo we're recording this a day or two

51:56SPEAKERafter Cyberpunk came out.

51:59SPEAKERAnd for the first time in probably a couple of years,

52:02SPEAKERmaybe since Destiny 2 launched,

52:05SPEAKERI opened my Steam list last night

52:06SPEAKERand almost every single person was playing Cyberpunk.

52:09SPEAKERLike that happened with Borderlands 2,

52:12SPEAKERit happened with like Call of Duty Modern Warfare

52:15SPEAKERand Modern Warfare 2.

52:17SPEAKERI don't remember, it happened with PUBG for a while

52:20SPEAKERwhen PUBG was real hot at the beginning.

52:22SPEAKERLike it's so infrequent now that there's one title

52:26SPEAKERthat everybody, you know, the hundreds of people

52:29SPEAKERthat I'm friends with from the different jobs I've had

52:32SPEAKERin the industries I've worked in

52:34SPEAKERare all playing the same thing.

52:35SPEAKERIt's really, really, it's almost shocking at this point, so.

52:39SPEAKER- Even in game development, once in a while,

52:40SPEAKERsomebody finds that bliss point.

52:42SPEAKER- Yeah.

52:42SPEAKER- And everybody's hooked.

52:44SPEAKER- Yeah, there you go.

52:45SPEAKERAnd it turns out it's just, you know,

52:47SPEAKERpenises clipping through pants.

52:48SPEAKERThat's what people are there for.

52:49SPEAKER- Cyberpunk 2077 has immaculate mouth feel,

52:52SPEAKERthat's really what it is.

52:53SPEAKER- I'm not putting my mouth anywhere near that,

52:55SPEAKERanywhere near Jackie, I'm just saying.

52:58SPEAKER- I wouldn't recommend it.

52:59SPEAKER- No.

53:00SPEAKERI think that's a good place to wrap it up for today.

53:02SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.

53:04SPEAKER- As always, we should thank our wonderful patrons.

53:08SPEAKER- Yes, please.

53:10SPEAKEREverybody who supports the show, we really appreciate it.

53:13SPEAKERBut especially, I'm clicking 'cause I didn't open this

53:18SPEAKERbefore the start of the show.

53:19SPEAKER- You're looking up.

53:20SPEAKER- It's foolish on my part.

53:22SPEAKER- I'm trying to, I mean, I have a vague idea

53:24SPEAKERof what your desk setup looks like.

53:25SPEAKERI was trying to try to envision this like NASA-like setup

53:28SPEAKERwhere there are monitors hanging from the ceiling

53:30SPEAKERthat you have to look at to--

53:31SPEAKER- God, that would have been so smart.

53:33SPEAKER- To get this feed.

53:34SPEAKER- And so I moved my top monitor up a little bit

53:37SPEAKERand I put the camera in between it and the bottom monitor.

53:40SPEAKER- Oh.

53:41SPEAKER- So now there's like an inch gap between the two monitors

53:43SPEAKERwhich I thought was gonna bug me

53:44SPEAKERand I don't think it's going to at all.

53:46SPEAKER- I've thought about, you tell me,

53:49SPEAKERI thought about going to like a side camera setup.

53:51SPEAKER- So I was on a side camera setup and the problem is

53:54SPEAKERwhen you're using that camera for conference calls,

53:56SPEAKERit always looks like you're side eyeing everyone

53:58SPEAKERwhen you look at the monitors.

53:59SPEAKER- Sure, I can see that.

54:00SPEAKER- So like it's not ideal.

54:03SPEAKER- Not ideal, yeah.

54:04SPEAKER- Does this feel like I'm making eye contact with you?

54:05SPEAKERDo you feel like we're having a personal connection

54:07SPEAKERright now 'cause I'm--

54:08SPEAKER- Close enough.

54:08SPEAKER- I'm looking at you on the screen and--

54:11SPEAKER- Good enough, just like everything else

54:13SPEAKERwe talked about here, it's good enough.

54:14SPEAKER- Yeah, there we go.

54:15SPEAKERWhat I really need is a camera

54:17SPEAKERthat's behind the screen of my monitor.

54:18SPEAKERThat's the thing I want.

54:20SPEAKER- Hey man, the second they figure that out,

54:22SPEAKERwe get a notchless iPhone and then I am off to the races.

54:26SPEAKER- God, I'm not gonna take this bait.

54:29SPEAKERThank you as always to our executive producer,

54:31SPEAKERLovell Patrons, Jacob Chappell, Andrew Cotton,

54:33SPEAKERDavid Allen and James Kamik.

54:36SPEAKERThank you all so, so much.

54:37SPEAKERWe really appreciate it.

54:38SPEAKER- Yes, absolutely.

54:40SPEAKER- And everybody, whether you back to Patreon,

54:42SPEAKERhang out in the Discord,

54:43SPEAKERwhich by the way, per popular requests we had,

54:47SPEAKERI added another channel this week.

54:49SPEAKER- Oh.

54:50SPEAKER- Outdoor, it's out for outdoor conversations,

54:53SPEAKERoutdoor thing, people who go outside.

54:54SPEAKER- Outdoorsy stuff, yeah.

54:55SPEAKER- Doesn't apply to me really, but one day maybe.

54:58SPEAKER- I threw a spoiler zone in there

55:00SPEAKERfor Cyberpunk as well on request.

55:03SPEAKER- Yeah.

55:04SPEAKER- It's only the second one of those we've done so far,

55:05SPEAKERthat it was Last of Us and then that, so.

55:08SPEAKER- I think I'm actually gonna play Cyberpunk.

55:09SPEAKERI wasn't kind of, I was kind of not thinking about it,

55:11SPEAKERbut now everybody's playing it, I feel like I have to.

55:13SPEAKER- Yeah, I definitely, I really want to play it.

55:16SPEAKERI feel like maybe a few more days would be prudent.

55:19SPEAKER- Yeah, I'm gonna wait.

55:20SPEAKER- I just assume there are gonna be a bunch of hot fixes

55:22SPEAKERcoming for a few days.

55:23SPEAKER- Yeah, I'll probably do a stream, I don't know.

55:25SPEAKERWe'll see.

55:26SPEAKER- Check it out this weekend maybe.

55:28SPEAKER- But yeah, thanks to everybody.

55:29SPEAKERIf you wanna participate in the conversation,

55:31SPEAKERwe have good conversations all day.

55:33SPEAKERWe had people watching the SpaceX launch the other day live.

55:36SPEAKERLike it's always, it is an incredible place to waste time

55:41SPEAKERand hang out with wonderful nerds.

55:44SPEAKERAnd you can find out how to do that at patreon.com/techpod

55:49SPEAKERfor as little as two bucks a month.

55:50SPEAKERAnd we appreciate the support.

55:51SPEAKERIf you can't support the show financially, tell a friend.

55:54SPEAKER- Yeah.

55:55SPEAKER- Tell your nerds about us and--

55:57SPEAKER- Spread the good word, or non-nerds, you know?

56:00SPEAKER- Yeah, let us know which episodes you like.

56:02SPEAKERI'm curious what people think about this one.

56:04SPEAKERThis one was, this is a kind of a concept episode.

56:07SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, that, again, we'll link it

56:09SPEAKERto that New York Times Magazine piece is kind of a must read.

56:13SPEAKER- Yeah, I feel like it'll change the way you,

56:15SPEAKERit changed the way I shop at the grocery store.

56:17SPEAKER- It's, I mean, it's pretty off-putting,

56:19SPEAKERto be perfectly honest.

56:20SPEAKER- I mean, look-- - It's a little infuriating.

56:22SPEAKER- I don't, I, look, I still eat Oreos.

56:24SPEAKERI mean, it's hard to beat an Oreo, right?

56:26SPEAKER- I mean, there are straight up quotes in there

56:28SPEAKERto the effect of, hey, we're not making them eat it.

56:30SPEAKERWe're not making them buy it.

56:31SPEAKERLike, it's just, no sense of culpability whatsoever.

56:35SPEAKER- It's just, I mean, it is, I mean, well, look,

56:40SPEAKERit's telling that Philip Morris, a tobacco company,

56:43SPEAKERowns, also owned the company they made,

56:46SPEAKERwe didn't even get into the Lunchable section of that thing,

56:48SPEAKERwhich doesn't really apply to this.

56:49SPEAKER- Oh my god, dude, I wrote it down,

56:50SPEAKERI wrote this down in our show notes

56:52SPEAKERunder random thoughts I wrote.

56:54SPEAKERThe passage about the birth of the Lunchable

56:55SPEAKERalmost reads like satire.

56:57SPEAKER- Yeah. - And it really does.

56:59SPEAKER- Yeah, I didn't realize that they lost money

57:02SPEAKERon Lunchables for the first year almost.

57:04SPEAKER- Well, hey, once they became part of the Kraft family

57:06SPEAKERand they were able to get the cheese food product at cost.

57:09SPEAKER- Yeah.

57:10SPEAKER- It increased the profitability

57:12SPEAKERof the Lunchable quite a bit.

57:13SPEAKER- Changed the dynamics of the whole,

57:14SPEAKERI had an uncle who used to work at a,

57:17SPEAKERwho started a consulting agency that like,

57:20SPEAKERdoes that kind of, did the same kind of,

57:22SPEAKERlike, not the food science part, but he would like,

57:26SPEAKERsome company came to him, Johnson Wax, I think,

57:28SPEAKERHC Johnson, and they were like,

57:31SPEAKERwe have a goal that every brand in our portfolio

57:35SPEAKERdoes a 10% increase in sales.

57:39SPEAKERBut Sterno was one of their brands,

57:42SPEAKERyou know, the canned heat product.

57:44SPEAKERAnd at the time, Sterno was 90%

57:47SPEAKERof the worldwide market in canned heat.

57:50SPEAKERSo they're like, we need to figure out

57:51SPEAKERhow to get market increase on Sterno,

57:53SPEAKERa product that is 90% of the thing.

57:55SPEAKERSo his company went out and did the research

57:57SPEAKERand they were like, oh, okay, here's what you do.

57:58SPEAKERGo buy this other company that operates in Africa

58:01SPEAKERand you're done.

58:02SPEAKER- Here's that last 10% you're looking for.

58:03SPEAKER- Yeah, so they bought that company and Sterno,

58:06SPEAKERthe Sterno guys got their bonus, I guess, I don't know.

58:08SPEAKERAnyway, this is just another way

58:13SPEAKERfor us to thank our patrons and everybody

58:15SPEAKERwho tells people about the show.

58:17SPEAKERWe will be back next week with another episode.

58:23SPEAKERI guess that's it.

58:24SPEAKERThanks for listening, everybody.

58:24SPEAKER- Yeah, thanks, everybody.

58:26SPEAKER- Bye.

58:26SPEAKER(upbeat music)