00:00SPEAKER- Should we talk about giant touch screens
00:01SPEAKERdoing data visualizations on live cable news?
00:04SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
00:05SPEAKER- It is better than when they started to pretend
00:07SPEAKERthey were in the screen before.
00:09SPEAKERAnd it was just kind of like, and it would be wrong.
00:11SPEAKER- Yeah, there's been a weird shift away
00:13SPEAKERfrom the weatherman style of I'm on a green screen
00:15SPEAKERand pretending that I'm waving around inside a computer.
00:17SPEAKERAnd it's more just like, here's a giant television
00:19SPEAKERthat we're shooting with a camera.
00:20SPEAKER- Well, so it's funny because Jean and I
00:23SPEAKERwere talking about this last night
00:24SPEAKERat like three o'clock in the morning.
00:25SPEAKERAnd she said that that job, like being the screen guy
00:30SPEAKERis maybe her dream job.
00:31SPEAKER'Cause it's like math, it's all the things
00:33SPEAKERthat she likes to do, like weird math on the spot.
00:35SPEAKERYou gotta do it really fast.
00:36SPEAKERIt's like being in like a high school math competition
00:39SPEAKERor something.
00:39SPEAKERAnd I was thinking, as she was saying this,
00:41SPEAKERI was like, I wanna be the person
00:43SPEAKERthat's directing these shows and that's feeding them live.
00:46SPEAKERLike I wanna be Albert Brooks in broadcast news
00:50SPEAKERback in the background, dumping lines in people's head
00:52SPEAKERand stuff like that.
00:53SPEAKERAnd just riding that wave of hype all night long.
00:57SPEAKER- It's almost turning into like a competition at this point,
00:58SPEAKERlike the John King, Steve Kornacki arms race.
01:01SPEAKERLike MSNBC was like straight up posting Twitter clips
01:04SPEAKERof Kornacki like doing crazy math in his head
01:07SPEAKERand stuff like that.
01:08SPEAKERIt was just like, they are just in some sort of weird
01:10SPEAKERdata visualization polling aggregation arms race
01:13SPEAKERat this point.
01:14SPEAKER- And it's not like it's difficult math.
01:17SPEAKERIt's only difficult math when it's 3 a.m.
01:19SPEAKERand you've only slept like six hours in the last 72 hours
01:22SPEAKERor something like that.
01:23SPEAKER- I've straight up seen people tracking the lack of clothes
01:26SPEAKERchanging in guys like that and like the person
01:30SPEAKERrunning the count in Philadelphia or whatever.
01:32SPEAKERIt's like, yeah, that guy's been wearing the same shirt
01:34SPEAKERand blazer for the last three days.
01:35SPEAKERI'm not sure if he's gone home yet.
01:37SPEAKER- You know the other change in all the broadcast news?
01:41SPEAKERHave you noticed?
01:42SPEAKERI don't think they did it this time,
01:43SPEAKERbut do you remember when they used to have chairs
01:45SPEAKERon broadcast news and suddenly all the sets went to like,
01:48SPEAKERlet's stand on the set.
01:50SPEAKER- I feel like a lot of them have,
01:52SPEAKERso like the screen guy has to be standing.
01:54SPEAKERHe's got to get back and forth from that big Surface
01:56SPEAKERover to the, you'll notice Microsoft didn't sponsor
01:59SPEAKERthis one by the way.
02:00SPEAKERLike last go round they sponsored.
02:02SPEAKERAnd I think it associated Surface's with like a lot
02:05SPEAKERof people's worst night of their lives.
02:07SPEAKER- You really don't want to form,
02:08SPEAKERthat is the worst possible brand association
02:11SPEAKERthat you could ever form.
02:12SPEAKER- Hey, you know what I would do if I were Microsoft
02:14SPEAKERthough for Surface?
02:15SPEAKERHere's my suggestion.
02:16SPEAKERYou signed Bill Belichick as spokesperson now.
02:19SPEAKER- Oh no, no.
02:21SPEAKER- Yeah, because it's just like, you know what,
02:22SPEAKERBill Belichick, even people in Boston will fire you
02:27SPEAKERin a season, but so you need some money now
02:29SPEAKERand we want to make you our, you know,
02:32SPEAKERthe inappropriate word these days.
02:34SPEAKERBut you know, you just want to like, yeah,
02:36SPEAKERyou hate it on Surface.
02:37SPEAKERYou're now our official spokesperson for the NFL.
02:41SPEAKERYou see Belichick there just kind of sulking
02:43SPEAKERand like, I like Surface.
02:45SPEAKERI really, I use it all the time.
02:48SPEAKER- If you're going to do that, you might as well
02:49SPEAKERgo all the way and make him the official computer
02:50SPEAKERof the Houston Astros too.
02:52SPEAKERIt's like, hey, look, we've moved at one level deeper.
02:54SPEAKERWe don't need to bang trash cans
02:56SPEAKERto cheat effectively anymore.
02:57SPEAKERWe're just going to get out there
02:58SPEAKERand we're going to write down the secret signs
03:01SPEAKERon the Surface and hold them up in the outfield
03:04SPEAKERso that the guy behind plate can see what's going on.
03:06SPEAKER- I don't even want to consider how much hate mail
03:08SPEAKERwe're going to get over this.
03:09SPEAKERLook, I muted the Sports Channel
03:12SPEAKERon the Discord for a reason.
03:15SPEAKER- You got to say it's like, hey, we've got the TV here.
03:17SPEAKERWhy don't we just pass that information on?
03:19SPEAKERHey, that's a good idea.
03:21SPEAKERThat's pretty impressive for some jocks to figure out.
03:23SPEAKERYou got to say, you know?
03:24SPEAKER- Okay, now we definitely, now we've crossed it over.
03:27SPEAKER- Let's start the show.
03:28SPEAKER- We got to quill or bind.
03:30SPEAKER(upbeat music)
03:47SPEAKER(upbeat music continues)
03:54SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.
03:57SPEAKERI'm Will.
03:57SPEAKER- I'm Brad.
03:58SPEAKER- And today we have a very special guest.
04:01SPEAKER- Gus.
04:02SPEAKER- Gus.
04:03SPEAKER- Gus.
04:04SPEAKER- A gusty guest.
04:05SPEAKER- My dear friend, former colleague
04:06SPEAKERfrom the old Maximum PC days, Gordon Wong, now a PC world.
04:09SPEAKERAnd you may know him from the full nerd podcast.
04:12SPEAKERWelcome Gordon.
04:13SPEAKERHello.
04:14SPEAKER- Hey, how's it going?
04:15SPEAKER- You know, it's, let's say we're recording
04:18SPEAKERon Friday morning.
04:19SPEAKER- It's a week.
04:20SPEAKER- It's been a week.
04:21SPEAKER- I feel like I could have a beer actually.
04:23SPEAKERI was thinking like 8 a.m. beer.
04:25SPEAKER- Yeah.
04:27SPEAKERBut yeah, welcome to the show.
04:27SPEAKERGordon, we brought you in this week
04:30SPEAKER'cause like there's been a bunch of stuff happening
04:32SPEAKERon PC hardware in the last couple of weeks
04:35SPEAKERwith AMD stuff specifically.
04:36SPEAKERAnd I know some of you can't talk about,
04:39SPEAKERbut like we wanted to kind of check in
04:42SPEAKERon the state of the CPU post the Ryzen launch
04:46SPEAKERa few weeks ago.
04:48SPEAKERNow that some benchmarks are starting to come out
04:49SPEAKERand stuff like that.
04:51SPEAKERAnd also to talk about the new GPUs
04:54SPEAKERthat AMD announced I think last week,
04:57SPEAKERbut it feels like about a hundred years ago.
04:58SPEAKER- Time will not exist at this point.
05:02SPEAKER- Yeah, no, it's the, everybody basically
05:07SPEAKERbecause due to our current world events,
05:10SPEAKEReverybody's just launching parts whenever they want to.
05:12SPEAKERThere's no more schedules or no more timing around.
05:15SPEAKERSo it's been a crush for everybody who does it,
05:19SPEAKERyou know, looks at hardware for a living.
05:21SPEAKERBut I think that probably the best way to describe,
05:24SPEAKERyou know, Ryzen 5000 Zen 3 is it's hard to believe
05:29SPEAKERthat AMD could crush Intel's parts even more
05:33SPEAKERbecause, you know, frankly Ryzen 3000
05:35SPEAKERwas already very, very impressive, right?
05:38SPEAKERFirst 16 core, you know, true consumer part.
05:41SPEAKERAnd now they've come back, new cores,
05:45SPEAKERthey've said we're gonna hit this performance.
05:47SPEAKERAnd for the most part, they have hit it
05:50SPEAKERor exceeded it as far as I've seen.
05:52SPEAKERAnd one thing that probably people are not seeing
05:55SPEAKERthat are not actual hardware reviewers
05:57SPEAKERthat are not exposed to all the reviews documents
06:00SPEAKERis they were, they played it very, very conservatively.
06:03SPEAKER- Really?
06:04SPEAKER- I thought, yeah.
06:05SPEAKER- You mean in the numbers they put out?
06:07SPEAKER- Yes, yes, so like, so like, hey,
06:09SPEAKERso typically you will get vendors like,
06:12SPEAKERhere is a sanity check number.
06:15SPEAKERIt basically run this test, this benchmark on your machine.
06:19SPEAKERIf your machine is not hitting this number, call us
06:22SPEAKERbecause then you have screwed something up
06:24SPEAKERor something is wrong, right?
06:25SPEAKERI do this, you know, with Intel, I do it with the AMD
06:29SPEAKERand you should just do it because,
06:31SPEAKERso for one of these, it's Cinebench.
06:33SPEAKERIt's like, okay, you should hit X number
06:36SPEAKERin Cinebench single thread.
06:39SPEAKEROkay, hey, I'm like, I'm there, right?
06:41SPEAKERSo you're saying I think six, whatever, 640,
06:44SPEAKERI'm getting 639.
06:45SPEAKERThey're like, oh, you should be higher than that.
06:47SPEAKERWe're like, what?
06:48SPEAKERLike, yeah, you know, we played it very conservative.
06:50SPEAKERYou should be at least, you know.
06:52SPEAKERSo they basically said they talked to the motherboard vendor.
06:54SPEAKERThey got me new BIOS.
06:56SPEAKERAnd actually it's like, this actually brings the performance
06:58SPEAKERof this board in line with the other boards out there.
07:02SPEAKERAnd all of that, I had to throw away everything
07:04SPEAKERI'd already done because I'd started it
07:06SPEAKER'cause it was within 1% of what they had said it would be
07:09SPEAKERjust to get one and a half percent higher, right?
07:12SPEAKERSo it's just because they want it to be higher.
07:16SPEAKER- So this, I have two questions
07:20SPEAKERand one is kind of like a meta,
07:21SPEAKERwhat it's like to test during quarantine.
07:24SPEAKERBut I'm curious, like, this is when I asked,
07:29SPEAKERwhen I told people we're gonna talk about this today
07:30SPEAKERin our Discord, that one of the big questions they had
07:34SPEAKERwas about memory compatibility.
07:36SPEAKERThey had a lot of questions about reliability with Ryzen.
07:39SPEAKER'Cause I know the first gen parts had some problems.
07:42SPEAKERIt seemed to me that most of that stuff cleared up
07:43SPEAKERwith the second gen, especially if you were careful
07:45SPEAKERto stay on the RAM vendor list.
07:47SPEAKERBut because AMD is supporting motherboards for so long,
07:50SPEAKERlike, can you end up in a situation
07:52SPEAKERwhere you have a motherboard that's theoretically supported
07:54SPEAKERbut is actually impacting your performance
07:56SPEAKERbecause it's not, you know, it's three years old
07:59SPEAKERand you're not getting the BIOS updates you want
08:01SPEAKERor something like that.
08:02SPEAKERThat seems like a real, kind of a real concern.
08:05SPEAKER- Well, I think most of it is not really the,
08:08SPEAKERit's not really you're gonna see a drop off in performance.
08:10SPEAKERThat's typically more motivated by, you know what,
08:13SPEAKERyou went out and bought a cheap motherboard,
08:15SPEAKERthe VRMs can't put out the voltage
08:17SPEAKERto really hit super high clocks.
08:19SPEAKERAnd that's probably what's gonna impact your performance
08:22SPEAKERmore of memory timings and those things.
08:24SPEAKERI think more of it is, you know, people like,
08:28SPEAKERhey, I bought the original AM4 socket,
08:30SPEAKERyou know, X370 or whatever, and I can run the newest things.
08:33SPEAKERLike, well, not necessarily.
08:34SPEAKERThere is just some boards
08:37SPEAKERwhere you just can't drop in a Ryzen 3000.
08:40SPEAKERThere was a big, huge, you know, kerfuffle over, you know,
08:42SPEAKERsome old 400 series boards that they were gonna like,
08:45SPEAKERyou know what, we're gonna leave you behind.
08:47SPEAKERAnd those people said, no, don't leave us behind.
08:49SPEAKERAnd AMD actually, to their credit, came back and said,
08:52SPEAKERyeah, okay, well, we're gonna support it.
08:54SPEAKERAlthough it is a serious pain in the butt
08:57SPEAKERto try to support older motherboards with new CPUs.
09:00SPEAKERAnd it's one of the reasons why Intel doesn't do it,
09:02SPEAKERis because now you've got this like,
09:04SPEAKERyou've got consumers like,
09:06SPEAKERwe don't know what works with what,
09:07SPEAKERand then you've got people returning stuff,
09:09SPEAKERRMAing stuff, and then you've gotta call all this stuff.
09:11SPEAKERIt really gets to be a mess.
09:13SPEAKERYou know, AMD, this was actually a weakness for AMD
09:16SPEAKERfor a long time, 'cause people tout like, wow,
09:18SPEAKERthis is awesome that they can do all this in AM4.
09:21SPEAKERYou know, it really, truly is amazing to get
09:24SPEAKERthe amount of CPU generations and performance improvements
09:27SPEAKERin the same socket.
09:30SPEAKERBut the reason they do this is because in the old days,
09:33SPEAKERlike, you know, like, hey, AMD's like,
09:35SPEAKERwe wanna do a new socket for a new Athlon FX part
09:38SPEAKERor whatever it is, right?
09:39SPEAKERAnd they're like, you're not gonna waste time for this
09:41SPEAKERbecause no one's buying your stuff, right?
09:42SPEAKERAnd that's honest truth.
09:45SPEAKERLike, board vendors are like, we're not going to,
09:47SPEAKERit's not, they don't have the gravity to move things.
09:50SPEAKERLike, Intel would just say, hey,
09:51SPEAKERwe're coming out with a new socket to match our new CPU.
09:54SPEAKERLike, yeah, hey, you're selling 80%, you know,
09:57SPEAKERprobably at one point it was 90% of CPU sold
10:00SPEAKERinto the entire market.
10:02SPEAKER- Yeah. - We're gonna do it.
10:02SPEAKERWe have to, right?
10:03SPEAKERAnd honestly, we like selling new motherboards,
10:05SPEAKERnot having people buy, you know, try to use the old ones.
10:08SPEAKERSo I think it's just sort of conditioned AMD,
10:11SPEAKERlike, that once was really a major weakness
10:13SPEAKERhas now turned into a major strength
10:15SPEAKERbecause, you know, for nerds like us,
10:17SPEAKERwe love being able to just swap the CPU out.
10:20SPEAKER- Yeah. - Realistically,
10:21SPEAKERconsumers don't ever do it, and you know,
10:22SPEAKER99% of people don't do it, but for nerds,
10:24SPEAKERit's like so valuable, so.
10:26SPEAKER- So actually, that, sorry, I'm just gonna jump in here.
10:28SPEAKERThis was one of my kind of later questions,
10:30SPEAKERbut I'm just gonna bring it up now
10:31SPEAKERsince you're talking about it.
10:32SPEAKERSo looking at AMD's roadmap, I believe they've said
10:35SPEAKERthat this is probably the last chip on AM4.
10:38SPEAKERIs that your understanding?
10:39SPEAKER- Yeah, no, and it makes sense because, you know,
10:42SPEAKERthey have said publicly, we need a major change, right?
10:46SPEAKERWe're not just gonna break it for,
10:47SPEAKERlike, they went from, you know, 400 to 500 PCIe 4.
10:50SPEAKERYou got, all right, PCIe 4, 5, 7.
10:53SPEAKERSo with AM, whatever the new socket will be,
10:56SPEAKERI'm thinking AM5, it makes sense.
10:58SPEAKERYou're gonna have, you know, DDR4, potentially PCIe 5.
11:03SPEAKERSo, you know, I've been saying, you know,
11:04SPEAKERAM5 with PCIe 5 and DDR5.
11:07SPEAKERSo, you know, when you have a major memory change,
11:10SPEAKERit's okay, most people admit it's okay.
11:12SPEAKERAnd, you know, this hasn't always been the case
11:14SPEAKERbecause you had people, motherboard vendors
11:16SPEAKERtrying to make it a DDR with DDR2 motherboard,
11:18SPEAKERand those things were just terrible, you know?
11:20SPEAKERBut people don't like that.
11:22SPEAKER- So remember that one that had both slots,
11:23SPEAKERso you could put SDR and DDR RAM on?
11:25SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
11:26SPEAKER- Yeah, those things were a mess.
11:29SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a mess.
11:30SPEAKERIt's a huge, huge compatibility issues,
11:33SPEAKERbut, you know, people, memory is very,
11:36SPEAKERit's very slow to change, so.
11:38SPEAKER- So if somebody wants to buy a Ryzen machine,
11:40SPEAKERbuy memory off the, if you're coming into Ryzen right now,
11:44SPEAKERit's safe to, I mean, new boards coming,
11:46SPEAKERyou're probably still safe to buy,
11:48SPEAKERjust buy memory off the list
11:49SPEAKERand buy one of the current gen boards
11:51SPEAKERand you're gonna be okay, right?
11:52SPEAKER- Yeah, you know, of course, if you wanna be, you know,
11:55SPEAKERa safety Sally, yeah, you're definitely gonna go off
11:58SPEAKERthe QVL list, qualified vendor list of memory.
12:01SPEAKERThose are the modules that they've got.
12:03SPEAKERBut if you're building, and again,
12:05SPEAKERit depends on your audience,
12:06SPEAKERif you're some hardcore YouTuber doing extreme overclocking
12:11SPEAKERwith liquid nitrogen, that's a different world,
12:12SPEAKERthen I'm gonna build a box off of parts
12:15SPEAKERon New Egg or Amazon.
12:17SPEAKERYou go out and buy a X570 board,
12:19SPEAKERyou go out and buy a 5900X,
12:22SPEAKERand you basically buy any name brand memory,
12:24SPEAKERwhich pretty much, it's gonna work.
12:26SPEAKERBecause, you know, the jet expects,
12:28SPEAKERthey basically, if you're gonna hit the jet expects,
12:31SPEAKERit's always gonna work with jet expects.
12:33SPEAKERIt's really the going beyond the jet expects
12:35SPEAKERthat's the problem.
12:36SPEAKER- Are the XMP profiles typically above those specs?
12:39SPEAKERIs that actually technically,
12:41SPEAKERlike I've always thought of the XMP as the baseline,
12:43SPEAKERbut is that actually out of spec
12:44SPEAKERfor what you're supposed to be getting out of the box?
12:47SPEAKER- Yeah, XMP is actually beyond jet, generally.
12:49SPEAKER- Interesting. - You know, some of them
12:50SPEAKERcan be, you know, potentially within,
12:53SPEAKERbut, you know, they'll have generally like, you know,
12:55SPEAKERtwo profiles, right?
12:56SPEAKERAnd typically, the higher rate profile
12:59SPEAKERwill be beyond the official jet expect for it.
13:01SPEAKERBut, you know, I do wanna say this,
13:04SPEAKER'cause people, I continue to hear this,
13:06SPEAKERespecially as you get to more, let's face it,
13:09SPEAKERand this is what AMD fans don't understand,
13:11SPEAKERis AMD has just stunk it up.
13:13SPEAKERPrior to Ryzen, they just stunk it up for 10 years, right?
13:16SPEAKER(laughing)
13:17SPEAKERAnd people, when it gets to that point,
13:18SPEAKERlike, you know what, I'm never gonna buy a Fiat in my life.
13:21SPEAKERThat Fiat was the worst car I've ever had.
13:23SPEAKERWhere suddenly, Fiat's making the best damn car
13:26SPEAKERin the world, it's hard for people to go like,
13:29SPEAKERwell, I had a Fiat.
13:30SPEAKERWell, that was like 10 years ago, man.
13:31SPEAKERThat one thing was a piece of junk, you know, so.
13:34SPEAKER- This tracks, I mean, this is gonna be
13:35SPEAKERa very self-serving part of this podcast,
13:36SPEAKERbut this tracks very much-- - And AMD's not a Fiat.
13:38SPEAKERSorry, don't wanna say that, 'cause Fiat's, Fiat.
13:40SPEAKER- Like what you just said, tracks one-to-one
13:42SPEAKERwith my experience over the last 20-ish years.
13:44SPEAKERLike, from the Duron 600 to some kind of Athlon 64,
13:48SPEAKERI was a diehard AMD guy.
13:51SPEAKER- That Athlon 64 was a lot like, what was it, FX after that?
13:55SPEAKERThat's what I'm saying, sorry. - Yeah, I mean,
13:56SPEAKERit's just one of the things, you don't even remember them.
13:57SPEAKERYou don't reserve brain space
13:59SPEAKERto remember their brands at some point, right?
14:00SPEAKER- 2010 is literally when I fell off of AMD
14:03SPEAKERand bought a Core i7060, and like,
14:05SPEAKERI've been Intel since then.
14:06SPEAKERAnd now I'm sitting here looking at these Ryzons again,
14:08SPEAKERlike, okay, maybe it's time to jump back over again.
14:11SPEAKERBut here's the question I wanna ask you,
14:13SPEAKERor one of many questions.
14:14SPEAKERI'm on a 7700K right now, and I thought it was kinda okay,
14:18SPEAKERand then "Watch Dogs Legion" came on,
14:20SPEAKERand that was like, that was a pretty rude awakening
14:24SPEAKERin terms of what my CPU is able to do at this point.
14:28SPEAKERSo looking at the Zen 3s, thinking about getting back in,
14:30SPEAKERbut like, one of the, like you said,
14:32SPEAKERone of the big selling points of AMD at this point is like,
14:34SPEAKERI buy a motherboard right now,
14:35SPEAKERI've got an upgrade path for X number of years.
14:38SPEAKERLike, that's not gonna be the case right now, right?
14:40SPEAKERBecause- - No.
14:41SPEAKER- It sounds like these boards that are out
14:43SPEAKERthat accommodate a Zen 3 chip right now, that's it, right?
14:46SPEAKERLike, you're not gonna have anymore.
14:47SPEAKER- Oh God, Gordon.
14:48SPEAKER- For the love of God, don't encourage him to wait, please.
14:50SPEAKER- Yeah, no, I mean-
14:51SPEAKER- No, no, that's not my, but that is the case, right?
14:53SPEAKER- Yeah, it is the case that the AM4 argument,
14:56SPEAKERthis is gonna, I mean, 99%, this will be the last CPU,
15:01SPEAKERnew CPU AM4Cs, you never know.
15:05SPEAKERYou know, DDR5 could hit serious, you know,
15:08SPEAKERlaunch and yield issues, and then maybe they say,
15:10SPEAKERyou know what, we're gonna do any, you know, you don't know.
15:12SPEAKERBut yeah, if you wait, it always gets better.
15:17SPEAKERBut really, you can wait infinitely, right?
15:20SPEAKER- God damn it, Will. - You can infinitely wait.
15:21SPEAKER- I'm fucking, I'm not saying I'm gonna wait.
15:23SPEAKERI just wanna know what I'm getting into.
15:24SPEAKERDo you see, do you see any mid-generation,
15:26SPEAKERlike Zen 3 refresh on another socket,
15:29SPEAKERor is this kind of one-to-one, you think?
15:31SPEAKER- I think, so, you know, they've already,
15:33SPEAKERthey said Zen 4 is on the way.
15:35SPEAKERThat'll be, you know, hopefully five nanometer.
15:37SPEAKERThe general roadmap is 2021 to 2022.
15:42SPEAKER- Okay, so that's a ways off, then.
15:44SPEAKER- It's a ways off, and I think, you know, again,
15:46SPEAKERyou're getting stupid, like, yeah, God, I hate the light.
15:50SPEAKERYeah, if you always wait, it'll get better.
15:52SPEAKERBut you never wanna be caught,
15:53SPEAKERyou never wanna be the last person on the old part, right?
15:56SPEAKERThat happened with Intel.
15:58SPEAKERIf you had a 9800K, and you bought a 900K, that was it.
16:01SPEAKERYou never got, you couldn't run the new 10900K.
16:06SPEAKERI would say, though, these parts,
16:08SPEAKERI mean, 7700K for most games is gonna be fine.
16:13SPEAKERAnd, you know, generally a GPU upgrade is better
16:17SPEAKERmost of the time, but if that game is really
16:20SPEAKERrunning out of gas, I'll have to fire it up.
16:21SPEAKERI just finally got a code for it, but.
16:24SPEAKER- It's pretty CPU-y, especially if you turn everything up.
16:28SPEAKER- Watch Dogs, maybe Watch Dogs is an outlier.
16:30SPEAKERLike, we'll see how Cyberpunk does,
16:31SPEAKERand like, what else, Assassins and Call of Duty.
16:34SPEAKERLike, it may just be a Watch Dogs thing,
16:35SPEAKERnot a slower CPU thing, I'm not sure.
16:38SPEAKER- Well, yeah, I, go ahead.
16:40SPEAKER- Oh, I was gonna say, one of the big questions for me
16:42SPEAKERis with new consoles coming out right now
16:45SPEAKERthat have a much larger number of cores than we're used to,
16:49SPEAKERlike, the, I'm really curious to see what that's gonna do
16:53SPEAKERto performance on this next wave of, like, AAA games.
16:57SPEAKERAnd my guess is it probably isn't gonna impact
16:58SPEAKERthis first year crop of titles as much as it does
17:01SPEAKERnext year and the year after, especially.
17:03SPEAKERBut, like, with the way ray tracing works
17:07SPEAKERand the way it changes the way the rendering pipeline works
17:09SPEAKERso that you're not really feel rate dependent anymore,
17:12SPEAKERyou're entirely dependent on how much math
17:14SPEAKERyou can do per frame and how many light sources
17:15SPEAKERthere are, much more than, like,
17:17SPEAKERhow many pixels are on the screen.
17:19SPEAKERWe're in a real, like, benchmarking's gonna get real weird
17:22SPEAKERover the next few years, I think.
17:24SPEAKER- Yeah, and, you know, I think, and I'm with you,
17:28SPEAKERI generally, 'cause, you know, this has been something,
17:30SPEAKERthis is not new, right, people say,
17:31SPEAKER"Well, you know, we've got Ryzen,
17:32SPEAKER"you've got eight cores costing basically, you know,
17:35SPEAKER"nothing, you know, under $200."
17:38SPEAKERWe got new consoles, it's gonna change everything.
17:40SPEAKERWell, I'm extremely skeptical of that
17:43SPEAKER'cause I heard the same old line with the, you know,
17:47SPEAKEReight core consoles, remember, you had eight core consoles.
17:50SPEAKERMy God, this is gonna change PC gaming, it didn't.
17:53SPEAKERThose weren't exactly hot cores in those consoles.
17:56SPEAKERBut I fundamentally think one of the problems,
17:59SPEAKEReven for AAA, is, you know what,
18:02SPEAKERI love making AAA games, I also like making a lot of money.
18:05SPEAKERI'm gonna sell this game, am I really gonna leave those
18:08SPEAKERwith a quad core CPU, like in the--
18:11SPEAKER- Like how much of the market is quad core, yeah.
18:14SPEAKER- And, you know, as much as the PC has moved forward
18:17SPEAKERa lot recently, you still got a lot, you know,
18:21SPEAKERand I have been saying this for a little bit now,
18:22SPEAKERbut, you know, the PC's strength is legacy
18:25SPEAKERand the PC's weakness is its legacy, right,
18:28SPEAKERbecause, and the same thing with Windows,
18:30SPEAKERthey go like, "Hey, what, you're gonna drop off
18:32SPEAKER"this support for this thing that only five people
18:35SPEAKER"in the world use, we're gonna come, you know,
18:37SPEAKER"we're gonna march on Redmond."
18:39SPEAKERSame thing with hardware.
18:41SPEAKERI don't really believe they can just simply go,
18:42SPEAKER"Yeah, we're gonna leave everybody behind."
18:45SPEAKERI'm sure-- - You're totally right.
18:46SPEAKER- They'll just turn off features, right?
18:47SPEAKERThey'll probably turn off features, but--
18:49SPEAKER- If you look at the Steam hardware surveys,
18:51SPEAKERlike time after time, they bear out
18:52SPEAKERexactly what you're saying, so--
18:53SPEAKER- You're like a 6600K is still the median CPU
18:55SPEAKERon Steam hardware, every last time I looked.
18:57SPEAKER- 1060, you know, 1650, like cards like that
19:00SPEAKERdominate the GPU list by far, by like an order of magnitude,
19:04SPEAKERso yeah, you know, we're just nerds,
19:05SPEAKERand we like to think that we have the best thing
19:07SPEAKERunder the sun, so how many of the Ryzen 5000 series
19:13SPEAKERhave you gotten your hands on personally?
19:14SPEAKER- So I originally, this, another sort of
19:18SPEAKERinside baseball thing, they are extremely sophisticated
19:22SPEAKERwith how they put spins on everything.
19:25SPEAKERSo in previous launch, you might get like,
19:28SPEAKER"Hey, we're gonna send you, you know, all four," right?
19:32SPEAKERThere's four parts here, but you basically sample
19:36SPEAKERthe ones that you want to, basically,
19:38SPEAKERso you want to shape the coverage, you ship one part out.
19:43SPEAKERSo this time, the vast majority of people
19:46SPEAKERgot the 12 core and 16 core Ryzen, the Ryzen 9s,
19:49SPEAKERwhich, frankly, are the ones I'm excited about,
19:51SPEAKER'cause I love big, fat, hairy hardware.
19:54SPEAKER- Yeah.
19:54SPEAKER- I didn't get the six core, I didn't get the eight core
19:56SPEAKERuntil yesterday, so you basically, they launched yesterday,
20:00SPEAKERI got them yesterday, because if you're AMD,
20:04SPEAKERyou go like, "You know what, if you wanna like,
20:07SPEAKER"you wanna just put that knife into Intel's back
20:10SPEAKER"and turn it," you show off 16 core, 12 core performance,
20:14SPEAKERand it just crushes them like, you know, single-threaded,
20:17SPEAKERmulti-threaded, you know, where it's 70% to 20%, right?
20:22SPEAKERYou look at those lower end parts where you're looking
20:24SPEAKERat a Ryzen 5, Ryzen 7, where it's really an eight
20:27SPEAKERversus eight, and a six versus six.
20:30SPEAKERI can tell you, Ryzen's still likely,
20:32SPEAKERI haven't tested them yet, but they're gonna be,
20:34SPEAKERyou're still gonna accept probably at least 20% faster,
20:36SPEAKERprobably across the board, maybe a little bit better.
20:39SPEAKERThat's not as impressive as, you know, 20% to 70%,
20:43SPEAKER20% to say 25% or 30%, that's good,
20:47SPEAKERbut it doesn't give you the same messaging as like,
20:50SPEAKERI mean, they will crush them no matter what,
20:52SPEAKERbut you know, but it just sorta goes you,
20:54SPEAKERit shows, and I don't know, Will, you probably haven't
20:57SPEAKERlooked at too much hardware lately, sorta like caught up
20:59SPEAKERin that how will reviewers being manipulated.
21:02SPEAKER- I spent some time with like 3080s,
21:04SPEAKERand I spent a lot of time with those 300 hertz monitors
21:06SPEAKERthat anybody had just rolled out.
21:07SPEAKER- Right, and those are awesome, but you'll notice
21:09SPEAKERthe timing on when reviewers get hardware
21:11SPEAKERis part of the PR marketing, right?
21:14SPEAKERAnd it's just, it's so sophisticated now,
21:16SPEAKERbecause they know if they only give these to you,
21:19SPEAKERyou're gonna look at 'em, you know?
21:20SPEAKER- I suspect that they even look at like yield sometimes,
21:24SPEAKERand think about like how the chips are binning,
21:26SPEAKERand like which of these things do we wanna move
21:29SPEAKERinto the market hard, and which ones do we wanna
21:31SPEAKERkinda slow play, because we're gonna have trouble
21:33SPEAKERgetting 'em out, and it seems like one of the things
21:35SPEAKERthat's happened since I left Maximum PC
21:37SPEAKERand stopped doing a lot of hardware stuff
21:38SPEAKERis we've gotten much better as a society
21:41SPEAKERat like binning hardware and designing stuff
21:44SPEAKERthat we can actually manufacture en masse,
21:46SPEAKER'cause you don't often, pandemic aside,
21:49SPEAKERsee like a new hardware launch roll out,
21:51SPEAKERand all of a sudden they're selling a bazillion more
21:53SPEAKERof the thing than they can actually manufacture.
21:58SPEAKERBut yeah, I, the kind of whole,
22:01SPEAKERthe PR cycle for this stuff is,
22:03SPEAKERthe thing that struck me coming back into this
22:05SPEAKERwhen we started the tech pod is how much that's changed,
22:09SPEAKERand how much more savvy they are,
22:11SPEAKERhow much more engaged with the enthusiasts they are,
22:14SPEAKERand honestly, like how much more transparent
22:17SPEAKERthey are about, like I was shocked
22:18SPEAKERwhen we went to those Nvidia briefs for the 3000 series,
22:21SPEAKERI was shocked at how transparent Nvidia was
22:25SPEAKERwith like the things that they thought were good,
22:27SPEAKERthe things that they thought were bad,
22:28SPEAKER'cause like, the thing is,
22:30SPEAKERwith all the people that are doing this now
22:32SPEAKERand the sophistication of the folks from YouTube
22:35SPEAKERto digital trends to whatever,
22:38SPEAKERor sorry, a digital foundry to whatever,
22:40SPEAKERlike they're, they can't get away with being sneaky anymore,
22:45SPEAKERlike you just have to detective some stuff out at Max PC,
22:48SPEAKERand like there's enough people working on it now
22:49SPEAKERthat somebody will figure it out across the board, so.
22:52SPEAKER- Yeah, no, it's insane.
22:53SPEAKERIt's, everything is, everything from the reviewers,
22:56SPEAKERI feel like an old person, and I am an old person,
22:58SPEAKERversus like, you know, like Steve Burke at Gamers Nexus,
23:01SPEAKERhe was like, he's doing like pressure traces
23:04SPEAKERwhere he got pressure sensitive paper
23:07SPEAKERand he's looking at CPU and GPU mounts,
23:09SPEAKERand then he's looking at basically sort of like,
23:13SPEAKERthen he can 3D model on that,
23:16SPEAKER'cause he's calibrated the paper,
23:17SPEAKERso then he can 3D model the pressure traces
23:20SPEAKERfor how you've mounted that CPU cooler
23:22SPEAKERand then take it off.
23:23SPEAKER- Got it, Gamers Nexus feels like it came out of nowhere
23:25SPEAKERand just like the amount of sheer ingenuity
23:27SPEAKERthat I see going into the tests they're doing
23:28SPEAKERis like kind of insane from like testing water loops
23:32SPEAKERand looking for behavior that nobody else is catching
23:35SPEAKERand stuff like that, like they really are hitting it.
23:37SPEAKER- Yeah, no, I love Steve, he's awesome.
23:39SPEAKER- The first one of his videos I saw,
23:41SPEAKERI was like, man, this guy's crazy.
23:43SPEAKERAnd then I'd like watch the video and I was like,
23:46SPEAKERoh man, like I wish we had him 15 years ago at Max PC,
23:49SPEAKERhe would have been a monster.
23:51SPEAKER- I think Steve, he is a fan,
23:55SPEAKERa lot of the younger people actually,
23:57SPEAKERI'll say this to old man Will and old man Gordon,
23:59SPEAKERbut a lot of these people, a lot of people,
24:02SPEAKERMax PC, Boot, they were just huge fans of it
24:05SPEAKERbecause if you think about it,
24:06SPEAKERthere were very few print publications
24:08SPEAKERthat actually flew the flag for what nerds cared about.
24:11SPEAKER- Oh yeah. - In PCs, right?
24:12SPEAKERSo I think in some way it's really kind of good
24:15SPEAKERbecause at least what we put on paper back then,
24:18SPEAKER15 years ago has sort of inspired a lot of kids.
24:21SPEAKERYou know, now they're doing their awesome stuff,
24:23SPEAKERlike, oh, I'm an old person, you know.
24:25SPEAKER- Not to make excuses for our nonsense back then.
24:28SPEAKERSo I learned how to build a PC from Tom's Hardware
24:30SPEAKERand that Boot built a PC guide in like 1997.
24:33SPEAKERThose were the two sources I used
24:35SPEAKERwhen I put together my K62.
24:37SPEAKERAnd the thing about moving over and working at Max PC
24:44SPEAKERwas that it became clear that a lot of what we could do
24:47SPEAKERwas entirely gated by like the fact
24:50SPEAKERthat it was gonna fit into like 1500 words, right?
24:52SPEAKERAnd it didn't, like there was stuff that like,
24:56SPEAKERwhen we did smoke testing and, you know,
24:58SPEAKERevacuated the building a couple of times
25:00SPEAKERand like tried to do latency testing in 2008
25:04SPEAKERand couldn't afford a high-speed camera
25:05SPEAKERbecause like it was gonna be a 300 word blurb
25:07SPEAKERin the bottom of some article.
25:09SPEAKER- Right. - Like I'm envious of,
25:12SPEAKERhey, here's how much money we're gonna make
25:13SPEAKERon this YouTube video, so here's how much we can spend.
25:15SPEAKERAnd that stuff being relatively kind of flat
25:20SPEAKERwould have made things a little bit easier.
25:21SPEAKERAnyway. - As well as the tools too.
25:22SPEAKERThe tools today are so sophisticated, right?
25:25SPEAKERI mean, like you said, like I always think
25:26SPEAKERlike that smoke test where Brad maybe not heard this story,
25:29SPEAKERwe took a system and we basically put, you know,
25:32SPEAKERplexi on the side of it.
25:33SPEAKERAnd then we took pictures as we blew simulated smoke
25:38SPEAKERthrough the case.
25:39SPEAKER- Gordon had his fog machine and brought it into the office.
25:41SPEAKER- Yeah, so we brought the fog machine in
25:43SPEAKERand then when you could see of course, you know,
25:46SPEAKERthe smoke would just stall out near the PCI cards,
25:49SPEAKERPCI of course.
25:50SPEAKERAnd of course, I remember like, hey,
25:55SPEAKER- As you were firing up the smoke machine,
25:57SPEAKERI was like, hey, there's smoke detectors in here.
25:58SPEAKERYou don't think this stuff will trip the smoke detectors,
26:00SPEAKERdo you? - It'll be fine.
26:01SPEAKER- You're like, nah, it's fine.
26:02SPEAKERLet's just forgive this, not permission.
26:03SPEAKERAnd then the next thing we know,
26:04SPEAKERwe had the whole building evacuated
26:05SPEAKERand the fire trucks were on their way.
26:07SPEAKER- No, no, you know the dumber thing though?
26:09SPEAKERNo, see Brad doesn't know the actual dumb story.
26:12SPEAKER- So the actual dumb story is,
26:14SPEAKERI don't know how these smoke detectors work.
26:16SPEAKERDo you think they're gonna key off the particles?
26:18SPEAKERHow do you must work off smoke?
26:20SPEAKERThis isn't smoke, it's just fog.
26:22SPEAKERWell, you know what, here is the dumb thing.
26:24SPEAKERNow, Will may not remember this.
26:26SPEAKERHey, let's ask the abilities person
26:30SPEAKERhow the smoke detectors work.
26:31SPEAKERShe's like, well, I don't know, but don't do it then
26:35SPEAKERbecause it probably just don't do it, what are you stupid?
26:40SPEAKER- Oh, okay, so then there's like, oh, let's do it anyway.
26:46SPEAKERAnd that's when we set off the smoke detectors
26:48SPEAKERin an entire building.
26:49SPEAKER- So the whole forgiveness, not permission philosophy
26:52SPEAKERis great right up until it's the county
26:54SPEAKERthat you're having to ask for forgiveness
26:55SPEAKERand then it might be a little bit of fun.
26:57SPEAKER- Yeah, the fire truck did roll up for that, so.
26:59SPEAKER- Well, they were used to it by then
27:00SPEAKER'cause you guys had done the fire safe test
27:03SPEAKERwith the kerosene soaked DuraLogs, DuraFlame logs
27:07SPEAKERa few months before that.
27:08SPEAKERSo when you melted the asphalt in the parking lot
27:11SPEAKERor whatever.
27:12SPEAKER- That's amazing.
27:12SPEAKER- A gallon of gas and five DuraFlame logs,
27:16SPEAKERone small, what, two pound extinguisher will not put up.
27:19SPEAKER- That sounds like a party to me.
27:22SPEAKERSo just real quick rundown for people
27:24SPEAKERwho don't remember all this stuff.
27:25SPEAKERThere are four Ryzen 5000s that have just come out.
27:28SPEAKERThere's six, eight, 12, and 16 cores.
27:31SPEAKERThe prices are 299, 449, 549, 799 correspondingly.
27:38SPEAKERI kind of wanted to ask in your opinion
27:40SPEAKERfor your average use case, gaming, light,
27:43SPEAKERproductivity, whatever.
27:44SPEAKERWhat do you think is the sweet spot there
27:46SPEAKERin this new lineup?
27:47SPEAKER- Well, it's clearly gonna be that 299,
27:49SPEAKERthe Ryzen 5 comes with a cooler.
27:52SPEAKERIt's just for most people, you're doing Photoshop.
27:55SPEAKEREven frankly, Premiere, you're not doing heavy duty.
27:58SPEAKERIt's like, and if you're sort of like a 75% gaming box,
28:02SPEAKERcome on, that's all you need.
28:04SPEAKERIt's really sort of, I think we're--
28:05SPEAKER- Is that the six core one?
28:07SPEAKER- Yeah, that's six cores. - Yeah, six cores, yeah.
28:08SPEAKER- It's more than enough for most people.
28:10SPEAKER- Interesting, 'cause like, and this might be facile,
28:12SPEAKERlike this is probably a simplified understanding
28:14SPEAKERof how multi-core software works,
28:16SPEAKERbut like I'm looking at the consoles
28:17SPEAKERand going like, well, those have eight cores,
28:19SPEAKERso I should probably get at least eight on the PC,
28:21SPEAKERbut I guess that's not quite how it works from the sound.
28:25SPEAKER- I will welcome the day when I am wrong
28:27SPEAKERand say you don't need a core CPU to play
28:29SPEAKERbecause I do, I wish for that forever.
28:32SPEAKER- 'Cause that'll mean they'll be doing
28:33SPEAKERway more interesting and like high-powered stuff, right?
28:37SPEAKER- Yeah, so that means actually game developers
28:39SPEAKERhave decided to take full advantage
28:41SPEAKERof all the PC firepower we've had for a long, long time.
28:46SPEAKERLike, and the reason I'm always so skeptical
28:48SPEAKERis Intel used to go out and literally pay developers
28:51SPEAKERto support their six core CPUs, Gulftown, Westmere, right?
28:55SPEAKERThey paid them, write them to support it,
28:57SPEAKERand then they're like, look, it works.
28:59SPEAKERThis was like 2012 or something, like 10 years ago.
29:03SPEAKER- Oh, I mean, it's really, multi-threaded stuff,
29:04SPEAKERand game renders are mostly single-threaded.
29:07SPEAKER- Is the thing, so like you can break out the sound,
29:09SPEAKERyou can break out the physics,
29:10SPEAKERbut like you run out of things to break out
29:12SPEAKERabout around four or five cores,
29:13SPEAKERand then after that, who knows?
29:16SPEAKERI'm curious, like, have you,
29:19SPEAKERas somebody who does a lot of benchmarking,
29:20SPEAKERhave you found new like workloads
29:23SPEAKERthat are actually consumer workloads
29:26SPEAKERfor like 10, 12 core CPUs?
29:28SPEAKERAside from like the obvious, the old school,
29:31SPEAKERhey man, your 4K video, like if I'm doing 4K video edits,
29:35SPEAKERit's pretty much the only thing that spikes my 9900K.
29:40SPEAKER- Yeah. - All the cores on.
29:41SPEAKERAnd for enough time that it's worth having, you know,
29:45SPEAKEReight cores with 16 threads, right?
29:48SPEAKERAre you seeing stuff beyond video and like CAD stuff
29:52SPEAKERand, you know, Cinebench and those types of benchmarks?
29:55SPEAKER- Not, I mean, not really.
29:58SPEAKERThe best case you can argue is, you know,
30:00SPEAKERas you're saying, is video editing encodes.
30:03SPEAKEREven there are sort of tops out.
30:04SPEAKERYou don't need a Threadripper, you know, 32 core CPU
30:06SPEAKERfor that, but.
30:08SPEAKER- Machine learning stuff, if you're a scientist, I guess.
30:10SPEAKER- No, and this is the one play that Intel's betting on.
30:13SPEAKERYou know, AI, kind of interesting.
30:15SPEAKERYou know, they're doing all their interesting,
30:17SPEAKERyou know, different things branded under DL Boost,
30:20SPEAKERbut if you look on the Intel on a desktop side,
30:23SPEAKERit's just plain done, just done.
30:26SPEAKER- Yeah, I apologize.
30:28SPEAKERI'm just gonna use this podcast as an excuse
30:29SPEAKERto ask you every question I can think of,
30:31SPEAKER'cause you have laptops, though.
30:33SPEAKER- Yeah, go ahead. - I was gonna ask
30:34SPEAKERwhat you think about, like, that Rocket Lake announcement
30:36SPEAKERfor next spring that happened a week or two ago,
30:38SPEAKERso it seems pretty underwhelming.
30:39SPEAKERLike, what's your general, like, state of the union
30:43SPEAKERfor Intel right now?
30:44SPEAKERLike, where are they going?
30:45SPEAKER- I think Intel is, they have too many enemies to fight.
30:50SPEAKERThey have too many mouths to feed,
30:52SPEAKERand I think they're just trying to,
30:54SPEAKERdesktops, as much as all us nerds and Discord
30:57SPEAKERand Reddit get totally like, oh my God,
31:00SPEAKERover a 16-core Ryzen, the vast majority of humans
31:03SPEAKERuse laptops, so-- - Laptops with four cores
31:07SPEAKERand 16 gigs of memory, right?
31:09SPEAKER- Yeah, and Intel's, Intel, basically,
31:11SPEAKERthey wanna defend data center, which is all the money.
31:14SPEAKERTheir problem there is AMD or Nvidia,
31:16SPEAKERand then they wanna defend laptops,
31:18SPEAKERwhich is AMD has got stellar products on as well,
31:21SPEAKERbut on desktop, Rocket Lake will be,
31:24SPEAKERyou know, the rumors are basically
31:25SPEAKERthey're gonna take Ice Lake, you know,
31:27SPEAKERmicroarchitecture, backport it on to 14 nanometer,
31:29SPEAKER'cause they can't make enough 10 nanometer parts,
31:33SPEAKERbut you take 10 nanometer, a design made for 10 nanometer,
31:36SPEAKERand you're gonna stuff it on to 14 nanometer,
31:38SPEAKERyeah, maybe you can get to better clocks,
31:41SPEAKER'cause Ice Lake could not, new Tiger Lake, 11th Gen can,
31:45SPEAKERbut, you know, it's still 14 nanometer,
31:48SPEAKERyou're not gonna, they're not gonna get
31:50SPEAKERthe core density that AMD has,
31:51SPEAKERso I think probably what's gonna happen is
31:54SPEAKERyou're gonna see basically the microarchitecture
31:56SPEAKERthey're using now, which is essentially Sky Lake,
31:59SPEAKERplus, plus, plus, plus, plus, plus,
32:01SPEAKERyou're gonna see a really decent, you know, IPC increase,
32:05SPEAKERso they'll get closer to what we're seeing out of Zen 3,
32:07SPEAKERI don't know if it'll be better.
32:08SPEAKER- Sorry, IPC?
32:10SPEAKER- Instructions per clock, right?
32:11SPEAKERSo, you know, so I think they're gonna get better
32:14SPEAKERon that efficiency, and you know, actually, Will,
32:16SPEAKERthe whole IPC thing doesn't really mean
32:18SPEAKERwhat it used to mean when, you know,
32:19SPEAKERreally smart people would yell at us in the '90s
32:21SPEAKERand say, well, that's not how you measure IPC,
32:23SPEAKER'cause people now, IPC, AMD's definition is
32:26SPEAKERwe take 20 applications, we lock all the CPUs
32:29SPEAKERat four gigahertz, and we look at,
32:32SPEAKERwell, in the old days, they used to say,
32:33SPEAKERwell, you gotta use, you know, this,
32:35SPEAKERyou gotta use this spec thing, and you gotta like,
32:37SPEAKERit really was like high-end computer scientist
32:39SPEAKERkind of like, kind of stuff,
32:41SPEAKERbut now it's really gotten very loose with IPC,
32:43SPEAKERbut really it comes down to efficiency per clock, right?
32:45SPEAKER- Okay.
32:47SPEAKER- So, Rocket League will get them closer,
32:50SPEAKERmay not beat 'em, maybe it will beat 'em,
32:52SPEAKERbut that's only lightly threaded stuff,
32:54SPEAKERand AMD's just gonna bash their heads in still
32:56SPEAKERwith 12 and 16 cores.
32:59SPEAKER- Sure.
33:00SPEAKER- So Rocket League is not gonna save them,
33:01SPEAKERbut it may stem some of the bleeding.
33:04SPEAKER- So is, again, self-serving here,
33:07SPEAKER'cause I wanna know what to get,
33:08SPEAKERbut I'm doing all, you know, work from home right now,
33:10SPEAKERlike I'm doing a ton of streaming,
33:11SPEAKERlike I am doing a lot of playing games on this PC
33:14SPEAKERand like streaming them out at the same time,
33:16SPEAKERis like the, say, the 12 core overkill for my use case?
33:21SPEAKER- I don't think so, I think 12 is,
33:22SPEAKERlike honestly, I think for the average,
33:24SPEAKERand when I say six core, I mean,
33:25SPEAKERthat's for your average person,
33:26SPEAKERthey're doing office, they're playing games,
33:28SPEAKERlike if I were to build my son a machine right now
33:30SPEAKERor my daughter, I would be a six core machine,
33:32SPEAKERI'm not gonna pay for 12.
33:33SPEAKERFor me, you know, I would definitely pay for the 12,
33:36SPEAKERI think the 12 is a stellar,
33:37SPEAKERit's really a great place to be,
33:39SPEAKER16 is awesome, but I don't do 3D modeling at home,
33:42SPEAKERI don't do 50 million things at once,
33:43SPEAKERI think 12 is a really good place to be.
33:45SPEAKER- Yeah, my guess, 16 sounds like it is overkill,
33:48SPEAKERis that generally the case?
33:49SPEAKERAlso, kind of a related question,
33:52SPEAKERI noticed that the base clock on the 16
33:54SPEAKERis a good bit lower, and does that impact anything much?
33:58SPEAKER- So the base clock is really sort of,
34:00SPEAKERyou know, you're not generally gonna hit it,
34:02SPEAKERI mean, I suppose, you have to sort of think of,
34:06SPEAKERso the problem with these, the 16 core AM4 part is,
34:09SPEAKERif you look at some of the performance tests we did,
34:12SPEAKERyou see, when you put it against the older 16 core part,
34:15SPEAKERit's a huge difference in that sort of left,
34:18SPEAKERthat, you know, lightly threaded, single core stuff.
34:22SPEAKERAs you get to the middle, it's still better,
34:23SPEAKERbut you get to the right side, it's sort of,
34:24SPEAKERit's still faster, but it's not that huge margin,
34:27SPEAKERyou're seeing 16 core versus 16 core,
34:29SPEAKERand the main reason, even according to AMD,
34:32SPEAKERis we're just power limited, you got 16 cores,
34:36SPEAKERif you're really using all 16 cores at 100% for 25 an hour,
34:42SPEAKERwe, you know, it's 105 watt part, we're not,
34:45SPEAKERthis isn't a Threadripper, they're basically,
34:46SPEAKERtheir answer's like, if you really need 16 cores
34:50SPEAKERfor two hours or four hours at a time,
34:52SPEAKERgo out and buy a Threadripper, we've got 32 core parts,
34:54SPEAKERwe've got 64 core parts, that's really,
34:56SPEAKERand they just have a lot, it's a bigger socket,
34:58SPEAKERyou know, there's more memory channels,
35:00SPEAKERthat's really the tool to use, so that's what I would argue.
35:04SPEAKER- And there are no Zen 3 base Threadrippers announced yet,
35:07SPEAKERright, no, I'm not, I don't need a Threadripper,
35:09SPEAKERI'm just curious.
35:09SPEAKER- Not yet, but I mean, but think about that, though.
35:12SPEAKERThese cores, if these cores are essentially
35:15SPEAKERpower constrained in a 16 core version,
35:18SPEAKERyou take these suckers and you put them
35:19SPEAKERinto a next generation Threadripper,
35:22SPEAKERit's gonna light things on fire, right?
35:23SPEAKERI mean, like the benchmarks, it's just,
35:26SPEAKERit's just gonna be incredible, right?
35:27SPEAKERSo you just sort of take the shackles off
35:29SPEAKERof the power and thermals that you get
35:31SPEAKERout of Threadripper platform, and it's gonna be, whew.
35:35SPEAKER- That's exciting. - I like the sound of that.
35:37SPEAKER- Yeah. - Can we switch over to GP?
35:39SPEAKERI think we've gotten, I think we've hit
35:40SPEAKEReverything important on the, oh, you got one more?
35:43SPEAKER- I could keep asking questions for a while.
35:46SPEAKERI haven't been, this is just in general,
35:48SPEAKERlike, this is the most exciting that PC hardware
35:50SPEAKERhas been to me in I don't know how long.
35:52SPEAKERLike, 15 years, probably? - Yeah, it's awesome.
35:54SPEAKER- Just CPUs and GPUs, it's crazy.
35:59SPEAKERWhat else was I gonna ask?
36:01SPEAKERDo you have any experience with graphite thermal pads?
36:03SPEAKERI haven't actually talked to anybody
36:04SPEAKERwho has used them firsthand, and like,
36:06SPEAKERI imagine with the amount of CPU swapping back and forth
36:09SPEAKERthat you have to do, I was wondering
36:10SPEAKERif those have come in handy for you.
36:12SPEAKER- I do not use them.
36:15SPEAKERI mean, I do know it's, of course,
36:16SPEAKERthat people, especially enthusiasts,
36:19SPEAKERare always looking for the next cool exotic thing.
36:22SPEAKERYou know, liquid metal, I think,
36:23SPEAKERis probably what a lot of people use,
36:25SPEAKERbut those graphite pads look sexy, so.
36:28SPEAKER- I look at my thermal pad a lot, Gordon.
36:30SPEAKERI want it to look really nice.
36:31SPEAKERI find it to be, it's important to have
36:33SPEAKERan attractive thermal pad.
36:34SPEAKER- One on one machine on it.
36:36SPEAKER- That is what's so cool about, I don't,
36:37SPEAKERI don't, it's like, it really felt like,
36:39SPEAKERI mean, that would be like exotic,
36:40SPEAKERthis is stuff that NASA had in the 2000s.
36:43SPEAKERLike, hey, I just ordered this off of eBay, right?
36:46SPEAKER- Look, you can get all sorts of crazy stuff
36:47SPEAKERfrom AliExpress.
36:48SPEAKERI got replacement mouse switches the other day
36:51SPEAKERthat are like high-performance mouse switches,
36:53SPEAKERand all I have to do is wait a month,
36:54SPEAKERand they show up, and yeah.
36:56SPEAKER- No, it really is a different world.
37:00SPEAKERWhat are some of the less obvious workloads
37:01SPEAKERthat would show off having a ton of cords?
37:04SPEAKER- Hmm?
37:05SPEAKER- No, I'm just looking at some of the questions.
37:06SPEAKERThat's cool.
37:08SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, I think that was the big one.
37:11SPEAKERI had a question.
37:12SPEAKER- I wish, right, I wish.
37:13SPEAKER- I mean, I think streaming is a good example, actually,
37:15SPEAKER'cause I know, like, all of my streamer friends
37:17SPEAKERhave switched from Intel machines with a second,
37:19SPEAKERa lot of 'em have switched from Intel machines
37:20SPEAKERwith a second machine to do the encode and run OBS,
37:24SPEAKERthat they pipe out across via HDMI,
37:28SPEAKERand now a lot of 'em are just using a, like,
37:31SPEAKER16, 12, 16-core Ryzen single-stream PC,
37:36SPEAKER'cause it's way simpler to do everything on the same PC
37:39SPEAKERand let OBS just grab it from the frame buffer.
37:41SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, just think of what,
37:45SPEAKERit's just amazing because you can, just the core count
37:47SPEAKERthat you can get, but I mean, even that's,
37:50SPEAKERI think the one thing that I really like about Zen 3
37:52SPEAKERis it felt like, I mean, to the external world,
37:57SPEAKERit felt like we were just making excuses,
37:59SPEAKERbecause clearly, when Ryzen first came out,
38:02SPEAKERIntel was kicking into AMD's butt in gaming still.
38:04SPEAKER- Oh, yeah.
38:05SPEAKER- 20% is nothing to like, they were still better in gaming,
38:08SPEAKERbut then you're sort of like, well, AMD's argument is like,
38:11SPEAKERwell, you're playing these games,
38:13SPEAKERbut you're also streaming, so you need more core density.
38:16SPEAKER- Yeah.
38:17SPEAKER- So, but it always felt sort of like
38:18SPEAKERyou were making an excuse for AMD.
38:20SPEAKERLike, sort of like, and the other thing is,
38:22SPEAKERpeople really do play in-stream.
38:24SPEAKERThat's like a new form of gaming that, you know,
38:27SPEAKERI don't do, I'm an old person.
38:28SPEAKERAlthough, you're a young hipster, Will, so you do it, but.
38:32SPEAKER- I got a beard for streaming, is the thing.
38:33SPEAKERI had to, I grew that thing out,
38:35SPEAKERand I had to start doing something.
38:36SPEAKER- How did I miss fun material while I was in there?
38:38SPEAKER- No, we were just talking about the core density
38:40SPEAKERand how it used to be with, when Ryzen first came out,
38:43SPEAKERthat you had to sort of,
38:45SPEAKERit felt like you were making excuses,
38:46SPEAKER'cause, you know, core still kicked Ryzen butt in gaming,
38:49SPEAKERbut then you're like, well, but if you're streaming,
38:52SPEAKERlike, whoa, you know, I can get eight cores,
38:54SPEAKERand Intel, I'd have to buy a thousand dollar CPU for that.
38:56SPEAKERIt's just like, that was like a game changer,
38:59SPEAKERbut it still always felt like
39:00SPEAKERyou were making an excuse for AMD, you know?
39:03SPEAKER- Well, and if you're a professional streamer
39:05SPEAKERand you want your thing,
39:06SPEAKERyou want your stream to look real good,
39:08SPEAKERthe best way to do that until the NVENC 2 stuff
39:12SPEAKERcame out with the 2000 series cards
39:15SPEAKERwas to run the x264 software encoder,
39:21SPEAKERwhich will basically eat as much CPU
39:23SPEAKERas you throw at it at the higher quality settings.
39:24SPEAKERAnd yeah, I guess, oh, go ahead.
39:28SPEAKER- I mean, I'm at the point,
39:29SPEAKERand you know, this is, this work from home stuff,
39:31SPEAKERthis may not last forever,
39:32SPEAKERbut like I'm at the point where I'm taking like videos
39:34SPEAKERwe need to post to the site
39:34SPEAKERand like running them through FFmpeg
39:36SPEAKERto encode them to something else.
39:37SPEAKERAnd, you know, like I'm dealing with ProRes files
39:40SPEAKERand like production quality stuff.
39:42SPEAKER- All in the 7700K?
39:44SPEAKER- Yeah, it's kind of a bummer, right?
39:46SPEAKER- Yeah, you need to.
39:47SPEAKER- That's why I'm really feeling the itch at this point
39:49SPEAKERis like, I need to--
39:49SPEAKER- You should not wait, you should not wait.
39:51SPEAKER- Right, and I'm not going to, but it's like, yeah,
39:53SPEAKERthis is gonna take like an hour and a half to encode
39:55SPEAKERinto this insanely high bit rate because--
39:57SPEAKER- Plus, think of it, I mean, the whole like,
39:58SPEAKERif you waited for Zen 4, whatever,
40:02SPEAKERyou're looking at really a new platform, new motherboard,
40:04SPEAKERyou are gonna have to do a new motherboard.
40:06SPEAKERYou're gonna have to buy DDR5, which I can tell you
40:09SPEAKERwill not be cheaper than DDR4.
40:10SPEAKER- Well, and also it'll be really slow too.
40:12SPEAKER- That's what I was gonna say, and not only that,
40:14SPEAKERbut like maybe there might be stability concerns,
40:16SPEAKERthere might be kinks to iron out.
40:17SPEAKERLike I'm getting in on the ground floor
40:20SPEAKERof a brand new platform and generation of memory
40:22SPEAKERand all of that stuff maybe sounds a little dicey.
40:24SPEAKERMaybe like I'm so used to having to buy a new board
40:27SPEAKERand memory with every CPU anyway that like it's from Intel,
40:30SPEAKERbut it's kind of, it's just the status quo for me.
40:32SPEAKERSo I should really get one of these probably soon.
40:35SPEAKER- And Brad, the other thing to think about
40:36SPEAKERis when that new stuff lands
40:38SPEAKERand you decide you need that upgrade and you can use that,
40:41SPEAKERthe old one can roll over into the home server
40:43SPEAKERand you've got a massive number of cores.
40:46SPEAKER- Oh my God, I could have a 12 core NAS.
40:48SPEAKER- Yeah. - Holy crap, okay.
40:49SPEAKER- Does it sold?
40:51SPEAKER- Does it have sold?
40:53SPEAKER- I have one last CPU question for you.
40:56SPEAKERWhat's like when this situation happened with AMD last time,
41:01SPEAKERIntel a few years later, you know, the Athlon was rising
41:04SPEAKERand Intel came back with a massive performance boost
41:09SPEAKERwith core by both fixing their janky Pentium 4 business
41:13SPEAKERand like starting on this multi-threaded path
41:17SPEAKERthat we're riding on now, what, you know,
41:21SPEAKERbut a lot of that was driven by process improvements
41:23SPEAKERand there's not a lot of process improvements left to come.
41:26SPEAKERSo like what's Intel's response to getting stopped?
41:30SPEAKERLike, do they care about this market still you think,
41:32SPEAKERor is this a place where they're just gonna cede this
41:36SPEAKERto the enthusiast PC market to AMD
41:39SPEAKERand lean into server metal and, you know,
41:43SPEAKERwith Apple switching to their own ARM chips on mobile,
41:46SPEAKERwhich we still don't know how that's gonna go,
41:48SPEAKERbut it looks like it's gonna be interesting at least.
41:50SPEAKERLike in Nvidia owning the high end data center
41:53SPEAKERcompute stuff now, it seems like,
41:55SPEAKERlike I don't, Intel has to be worried
41:57SPEAKERabout some of these markets.
41:58SPEAKERI don't know if they're gonna be worried about all of them,
42:00SPEAKERbut I'm curious what you think their response is gonna be.
42:03SPEAKER- I, you know, I, and this is, it's true 'cause, you know,
42:07SPEAKERAMD had this in their presentation, what, three years ago?
42:11SPEAKERFour years, so they're basically saying in the past,
42:13SPEAKERIntel would run away with process and Smokas
42:16SPEAKERand they just see that slowing of Moore's Law,
42:18SPEAKERnot letting Intel do that anymore
42:20SPEAKERand we're seeing that every day manifest itself.
42:23SPEAKERIntel, basically, there's heavy, heavy talks
42:28SPEAKERof them hiring out TSMC as a fab, right?
42:31SPEAKER- Wow. - Which is insane.
42:33SPEAKER- That's bananas given the money they spend on fabs, yeah.
42:35SPEAKER- I was gonna say, they must have invested
42:36SPEAKERlike untold billions in their own fabrication, right?
42:39SPEAKER- Yeah, they were talking about billions
42:40SPEAKERand billions of dollars in these fabs you gotta pay for
42:42SPEAKERand also, you know, Intel, you know, they are,
42:46SPEAKERyou know, a lot of people call them arrogant,
42:48SPEAKERbut it's because they've been so good for so long, right?
42:51SPEAKER- 40 years, man. - You're talking about
42:53SPEAKERsomebody who's basically been the number one
42:55SPEAKERfor 40 years of computing.
42:57SPEAKER- Yeah. - You're gonna,
42:59SPEAKERI have to believe that they will at some point pull it out,
43:03SPEAKERbut sometimes, unlike before with, you know,
43:05SPEAKERwith Athlon 64 where AMD cleaned their clock
43:08SPEAKERfor about four years and then basically Intel
43:10SPEAKERput 'em in a box and we didn't see 'em for 10 years,
43:13SPEAKERI don't know sometimes, I'm really kind of worried.
43:16SPEAKERI've been saying this for a while because I don't know
43:17SPEAKERbecause I don't know if Intel can pull it out this time.
43:20SPEAKER- Well, it has to be like turning an aircraft carrier,
43:22SPEAKERright, like it takes years for what they're doing now
43:26SPEAKERto actually manifest in the market, right?
43:28SPEAKERThere must be huge lead times on this stuff.
43:30SPEAKER- But they are smart.
43:31SPEAKERI mean, the one thing, it's like, people really just,
43:34SPEAKERpeople like, they just wanna hate on you.
43:36SPEAKERThe way the world of hardware is now,
43:39SPEAKERthey just wanna hate on, you know,
43:40SPEAKERand I will say this, I'm a Warriors fan.
43:42SPEAKERI'm not a Patriots fan, but I know how Patriots fans are.
43:46SPEAKERPeople will hate you no matter what
43:47SPEAKERand they wanna hate on you. - I feel like
43:49SPEAKERthat's just any enthusiast community at this point, right?
43:51SPEAKER- Any enthusiast community, but the reason why Intel,
43:54SPEAKERthey are smart, they have generally the smartest people
43:58SPEAKERin the world, so I really think,
44:00SPEAKERI have to believe they will at some point pull it out,
44:03SPEAKERbut it's certainly not like it used to be.
44:05SPEAKERI don't know what they're gonna do.
44:07SPEAKER- Yeah, I was gonna say, like with the core stuff,
44:08SPEAKERyou could kinda see the writing on the wall
44:10SPEAKERand see that they were gonna A, lean on process
44:12SPEAKERand B, just go massively multi-threaded
44:14SPEAKERas fast as they could, but with this, I don't see,
44:18SPEAKERI mean, it could be that they go more SOC
44:20SPEAKERand start adding dedicated compute units
44:23SPEAKERand stuff like that to accelerate the specific workloads.
44:25SPEAKERThere's a bazillion different things they could do
44:28SPEAKERand I'm, without the crutch of process to lean on,
44:30SPEAKERI'm really interested to see what happens.
44:32SPEAKER- Well, they've talked about this for a few years,
44:35SPEAKERbut they haven't successfully pulled it off
44:37SPEAKERin any higher end part, but they've got their EMIB, right?
44:40SPEAKERSo they're basically gonna be stacking parts
44:43SPEAKERand the whole idea is like they've realized
44:45SPEAKERthat monolithic dies are not gonna work for them anymore,
44:48SPEAKERso let's just stack up parts. - Can you explain
44:50SPEAKERthe EMIB stuff a little bit?
44:51SPEAKER- So, I don't remember the exact name of the acronym,
44:56SPEAKERbut basically it lets them say use 10 nanometer cores,
45:00SPEAKERwill say the power circuit's made out of a 14 nanometer part
45:03SPEAKERand then you basically, they just take the parts
45:05SPEAKERthat they want and then they stack 'em.
45:08SPEAKER- Like LEGO almost. - Like a LEGO.
45:10SPEAKER- It sounds not entirely dissimilar
45:12SPEAKERto the chiplet stuff AMD's doing,
45:13SPEAKERlike just modularize the design of the die.
45:17SPEAKER- Yeah, so it'll be modularized and, you know,
45:19SPEAKEREMIB is, you know, a high-speed mesh fabric type whatever.
45:24SPEAKERAnd they've actually done this with the original KB Lake G,
45:27SPEAKERthat was one of the test platforms where they took,
45:29SPEAKERbasically, they took a KB Lake quad core
45:32SPEAKERand they connected it with the Radeon core
45:34SPEAKERand they basically used their EMIB to connect the two, right?
45:37SPEAKERSo they could prove that we could do
45:39SPEAKERwith the high-speed interface all on the same socket,
45:42SPEAKERor same chip package and then, of course,
45:44SPEAKERthe Radeon had the, it had HBM memory, so.
45:49SPEAKER- It was interesting. - Polaris Vega construction,
45:52SPEAKERbut they, I do think they think that'll help them.
45:55SPEAKERBeyond Rocket Lake, there's, you know,
45:57SPEAKERrumors of an Alder Lake park that I think is gonna be
46:00SPEAKERlike a big little construction.
46:02SPEAKERSo I'm not sure where that plays out,
46:06SPEAKERbut you know, people, Intel is smart.
46:09SPEAKERIntel is a really, really smart company.
46:11SPEAKERYou don't get the 40 years of dominance
46:13SPEAKERbecause you just don't know, it's not out of luck.
46:15SPEAKER- As much as they seem like they're maybe lost
46:17SPEAKERin the woods a little bit right now,
46:18SPEAKERit seems like it would be foolish to write them off this soon.
46:21SPEAKER- Yeah, so we don't have a whole lot of time left,
46:23SPEAKERbut I wanna make sure we talk about new GPUs a lot,
46:26SPEAKERa little bit, because there's interesting stuff happening
46:28SPEAKERon the Radeon side from AMD as well.
46:30SPEAKERAnd like I said, they announced this stuff last week.
46:32SPEAKERWe don't have benchmarks or anything yet.
46:34SPEAKERThe NDAs for that haven't expired yet.
46:37SPEAKERAnd I think you said you were firewalled
46:39SPEAKERfrom PC World's GPU coverage, so we can talk freely.
46:44SPEAKER- But this is our DNA too, the new Radeon 6000 series.
46:50SPEAKERAnd I'm like, it seems like the big change
46:54SPEAKERis that they've added ray tracing, is that?
46:56SPEAKER- Well, I think more general, the bigger picture
46:58SPEAKERis that the big change is that they are competitive
47:00SPEAKERin GPUs again, right?
47:02SPEAKERLike much like on the CPU side,
47:04SPEAKERit's like AMD actually matters in graphics cards
47:06SPEAKERfor the first time in like how long?
47:08SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, they are claiming to compete with 3080
47:11SPEAKERand some people think 3090.
47:13SPEAKERSo, damn.
47:15SPEAKER- Yes, ray tracing is obviously the big new feature
47:18SPEAKERfor them here.
47:18SPEAKER- Well, these are the GPU, these are the same,
47:21SPEAKERthis is the same graphics architecture
47:23SPEAKERthat's driving both, or at least some subset
47:26SPEAKERof both of the new PCs, consoles.
47:28SPEAKER- Yes. - Yep.
47:29SPEAKER- The new PCs?
47:30SPEAKER- Yes.
47:31SPEAKER- Yeah, the new living room PCs.
47:33SPEAKER- More PC, yes, especially this Xbox sure looks
47:35SPEAKERkind of like a PC case.
47:37SPEAKER- I wish my PC case was square and towery.
47:39SPEAKERThat sounds like it'd be good.
47:43SPEAKERLet's see, they're unlike Nvidia who rolled their own API
47:48SPEAKERbefore DirectX and the Vulkan APIs were quite ready
47:51SPEAKERfor RTX stuff last year, year before.
47:54SPEAKERIt seems like the AMD parts are both native
47:57SPEAKERfor the Microsoft DirectX ray tracing API
48:01SPEAKERand the Vulkan API, yeah.
48:04SPEAKER- So this was like kind of a big revelation to me
48:06SPEAKER'cause like the headline coming out of this was like,
48:08SPEAKERoh, some of the current ray tracing enabled games
48:10SPEAKERon the market are not gonna do ray tracing
48:11SPEAKERon these AMD cards right out of the gate
48:13SPEAKERand like when you walk that back a little bit
48:16SPEAKERto understand why, it sounds like it's because
48:18SPEAKERthey're doing Nvidia proprietary stuff in software,
48:21SPEAKERwhich I just assumed they were to spec in Vulkan,
48:25SPEAKERif not DXR, but I guess Nvidia was doing their own
48:28SPEAKERcustom voodoo in there.
48:29SPEAKER- So yeah, like people haven't really,
48:32SPEAKERI went back and looked when you're talking about this
48:33SPEAKERbefore the start of the show.
48:35SPEAKERLike Remedy doesn't say what API they're using
48:38SPEAKERfor ray tracing control because there was only one card
48:41SPEAKERand they released that game that could do ray tracing.
48:43SPEAKERSo it kind of didn't matter.
48:44SPEAKERIt's like if you wanted to play GLQuake
48:46SPEAKERwhen the 3DFX voodoo was the only card out,
48:48SPEAKERit didn't matter unless you had an SGI workstation.
48:51SPEAKER- Right, I was totally gonna say this is so sort of analogous
48:55SPEAKERto the 3DFX and Glide situation, right?
48:57SPEAKEROf games being kind of designed toward one specific
49:00SPEAKERpiece of hardware, not one to one,
49:02SPEAKERbut it's kind of reminiscent of that.
49:04SPEAKER- So the difference now though is that often
49:07SPEAKERthe DirectX API follows whoever rolls
49:10SPEAKERthe hardware out first.
49:12SPEAKERI mean, there'll be conversations with all involved parties.
49:15SPEAKERSo AMD, Nvidia and Microsoft and everybody who works
49:18SPEAKERon in those worlds contributed.
49:20SPEAKERBut my guess is at these high level APIs,
49:27SPEAKERgenerally the situation is that you're just doing math.
49:31SPEAKERSo like it's a situation where you can either
49:33SPEAKERrewrite the, you know, reformat the code
49:36SPEAKERfor the ray tracing part of the program
49:39SPEAKERinto the new API or dump it into a wrapper
49:42SPEAKERor something like that.
49:43SPEAKERAnd usually it's pretty performant.
49:46SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, yeah.
49:47SPEAKER- I don't know if that applies here just for the record,
49:49SPEAKERbut that's how it's worked in the past.
49:51SPEAKER- I'm not implying it's a problem in any way.
49:52SPEAKERI'm sure that those games will get back ported
49:55SPEAKERto the VR player country.
49:56SPEAKERI just like knowing how things work.
49:58SPEAKER- I think your concerns are warranted because I,
50:01SPEAKERyou know, definitely it has been floated that a lot of,
50:05SPEAKERyou know, again, these were all DXR games
50:08SPEAKERand there was nothing proprietary, obviously the DLSS part
50:10SPEAKERwas gonna be proprietary and everybody had assumed
50:15SPEAKERthat when you got a, say an Intel or an AMD card
50:19SPEAKERthat supported DXR, you would just flip on the switch
50:22SPEAKERand it would work too.
50:23SPEAKERBut if these games are not going to work out of the box
50:28SPEAKERor easily with other DirectX ray tracing cards,
50:32SPEAKERit makes you wonder what exactly happened.
50:35SPEAKERSo people should be concerned about that
50:37SPEAKERbecause I would hope, you know,
50:40SPEAKERpeople are more transparent about it.
50:41SPEAKERI mean, but it could be,
50:43SPEAKERthis could be Nvidia's game works, right?
50:45SPEAKERThis could be simply, hey, you know what?
50:47SPEAKERWe know you don't care about this,
50:49SPEAKERbut we will do the work for you.
50:50SPEAKERIt's like, oh, really?
50:52SPEAKERYou will do the work for us.
50:54SPEAKERThey hand them the library,
50:55SPEAKERthey use the library and you use it, right?
50:58SPEAKER- Let me tell you, if Nvidia called me and was like,
51:00SPEAKERhey, we'll add ray tracing to your game.
51:02SPEAKERI like, I am literally, I'm a small developer.
51:05SPEAKERI'm not making control or anything like that.
51:06SPEAKERBut if somebody calls me and is like,
51:07SPEAKERhey, we'll give you an engineer for a few months
51:09SPEAKERto implement this feature, my hand is raised.
51:12SPEAKER- No, absolutely.
51:15SPEAKERI've got the little quote snippets in front of me
51:17SPEAKERfrom AMD here on this issue,
51:19SPEAKERwhich is that they say that the Radeon 6000 series
51:22SPEAKERwill support quote all ray tracing titles
51:25SPEAKERusing industry-based standards.
51:26SPEAKERThat's obviously DXR and Vulkan.
51:28SPEAKER- Well, I mean, that's always been their position.
51:30SPEAKERThey always go with the industry standard at AMD,
51:32SPEAKERwhich is a good thing.
51:33SPEAKER- But also they'd added that they won't support quote
51:36SPEAKERproprietary ray tracing APIs and extensions.
51:38SPEAKERSo there's obviously something in video specific there
51:41SPEAKERthat they're referring to.
51:42SPEAKER- My guess is that going forward,
51:44SPEAKERthis is much less of an issue than it is for older games.
51:47SPEAKER- I mean, yeah, realistically,
51:48SPEAKERwe're talking about like practically single digit
51:50SPEAKERnumbers of games. - Literally two games.
51:51SPEAKER'Cause like the Call of Duty, Modern Warfare,
51:55SPEAKERray tracing extensions didn't matter.
51:57SPEAKERWe're talking about control and maybe Metro Exodus.
52:00SPEAKER- Right, right.
52:02SPEAKER- And then Quake 2, Quake 2 RTX,
52:05SPEAKERand the Minecraft RTX thing that Nvidia paid for.
52:08SPEAKER- Oh, I've got to get Minecraft RTX.
52:09SPEAKERI had, Quake 2 RTX was the first thing I played on my 3080.
52:12SPEAKERAnd like, I was just drooling all over myself.
52:15SPEAKERLike I could not believe what I was seeing, but.
52:18SPEAKER- Here's my question to both of you.
52:19SPEAKERSo, 'cause what's gonna happen is you're gonna see
52:21SPEAKERa lot of yelling.
52:22SPEAKERYou're gonna see a lot of gnashing of teeth over.
52:25SPEAKEROh my God, you know, Nvidia is doing
52:27SPEAKERits proprietary thing again.
52:29SPEAKERThis is not fair, blah, yeah.
52:31SPEAKERThat'll be the normal, you know,
52:33SPEAKERcomplaint you will see out there.
52:34SPEAKERDo you think that is all that?
52:37SPEAKERDo you think that's a little unfair?
52:38SPEAKERBecause if Nvidia, like Will said,
52:40SPEAKERif Nvidia says, hey, we're gonna do it for you.
52:43SPEAKERWe're gonna do the work for you
52:44SPEAKERthat you would otherwise not do.
52:46SPEAKERShouldn't they benefit from that?
52:48SPEAKER- Totally, they were first to market
52:49SPEAKERwith hardware ray tracing capability.
52:50SPEAKERLike they absolutely should exploit that.
52:52SPEAKERI'm not like criticizing in any way.
52:53SPEAKERIt's just, it's more just an assessment of like,
52:55SPEAKERwhat games are gonna work on this new card
52:57SPEAKERand which ones aren't,
52:58SPEAKERand what's it gonna be like going forward?
52:59SPEAKERAnd I assume going forward, 100% of games coming out
53:01SPEAKERwill work on both.
53:03SPEAKER- My assumption is going forward, almost everything,
53:05SPEAKERexcept for Xbox exclusives are gonna be written in Vulkan,
53:07SPEAKERwhich will be cross-platform.
53:08SPEAKER- Right.
53:09SPEAKER- 'Cause I mean, if you're building stuff for PS4,
53:11SPEAKERif you're building stuff for Xbox,
53:13SPEAKERif you're building stuff for PC,
53:15SPEAKERVulkan means you write that code
53:17SPEAKERand then you don't worry about it, is my understanding.
53:19SPEAKER- I think Sony- - I think there's
53:20SPEAKERgraphics programs in the audience that,
53:22SPEAKERI know Sony has their own thing
53:23SPEAKERthat is like an extension. - Yeah, they roll their own
53:25SPEAKERgraphics libraries as far as I know, but-
53:26SPEAKER- Does that, but is that realistic though?
53:28SPEAKERBecause I mean, I've always thought Vulkan was, you know,
53:31SPEAKERone out of 50 versus, you know, 99.
53:34SPEAKER- I keep expecting Vulkan to take over
53:37SPEAKERbecause of the cross-platform nature of it,
53:39SPEAKERand it kind of, like Doom uses Vulkan to great effect, right?
53:43SPEAKERBut Doom is the one Vulkan game
53:46SPEAKERthat I have played on the reg over the last five years,
53:48SPEAKERso maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.
53:50SPEAKERI mean, DXR is the no-brainer for PC and Xbox, right?
53:53SPEAKER- Yeah, but I just feel like it's just so much,
53:56SPEAKERthere's almost so much gravity with DirectX
53:58SPEAKERand the tools and Microsoft and PCs and, you know,
54:02SPEAKERand Xbox that, I just can't imagine who would do Vulkan,
54:06SPEAKERexcept for, you know, people who want to support those,
54:08SPEAKERyou know, third-party, or I don't know,
54:10SPEAKERwhat's the politically nice way to say Linux
54:13SPEAKERand PSD people, he says, but is there a correct terminology?
54:16SPEAKER- Cranks is what we usually know.
54:18SPEAKER- But we like Linux and PSD people.
54:19SPEAKER- Brad and I both have PSD machines running in our,
54:22SPEAKERtwo, I have multiple PSD machines running in this house.
54:24SPEAKER- And you have a beard.
54:24SPEAKER- And I have a sick gray beard, yeah.
54:26SPEAKERI am constantly, constantly Google searching for answers
54:29SPEAKERto the very, very minute differences between PSD
54:32SPEAKERand Linux versions of everything, and it's not,
54:35SPEAKERlet's just not get into it. - I do like how PSD
54:37SPEAKERand Linux people like to yell at each other, though.
54:38SPEAKER- Look, I'm moving my PSD machine to Proxmox
54:41SPEAKERso I can just put a bunch of Linux VMs on it
54:43SPEAKERand call it a day.
54:45SPEAKER- The funny thing is, to us, like dirty Windows peasants,
54:47SPEAKERit's like, you're both the same.
54:48SPEAKERWe don't understand, right?
54:50SPEAKER- You're all loaded to ticks, doesn't matter.
54:51SPEAKER- It's like the episode of "Star Trek"
54:52SPEAKERwhere the one had the face, right,
54:53SPEAKERthe white face on the right and the left on the link reversed.
54:56SPEAKER- It doesn't matter.
54:58SPEAKERIt doesn't matter what heretical denomination
55:00SPEAKERyou ascribe to, you're all--
55:01SPEAKER- You're both case-sensitive OSes.
55:03SPEAKERWe don't understand.
55:05SPEAKER- Look, I can tab complete, it doesn't matter, Gordon.
55:07SPEAKERThe thing, the thing, I'm sorry.
55:09SPEAKERI was just gonna say, the thing to remember
55:12SPEAKERabout Linux and PSD is that you spend like four years
55:16SPEAKERkind of going cross-eyed every time
55:17SPEAKERyou have to fix something, and then eventually it just clicks
55:20SPEAKERand you understand it's like speaking another language.
55:22SPEAKER- It's like, honestly, that moment,
55:24SPEAKERthat moment every time it happens is worth all of the toil
55:27SPEAKERand the heartbreak because it feels like magic
55:29SPEAKERwhen it's like, oh my God, I feel like,
55:31SPEAKERit's like in D&D how you have to learn your spells
55:34SPEAKERand they exist in your brain and then you cast magic.
55:36SPEAKER- Once you know the increase, yeah.
55:38SPEAKER- It's just like, wow, I learned a magic spell
55:39SPEAKERat some point without realizing it.
55:41SPEAKERNow I can just do this incantation, but--
55:43SPEAKER- I have to admit, I haven't tried it since the 1990s.
55:46SPEAKER- It's way better than installing slackware
55:50SPEAKERfrom floppy disks, it's come a long way for sure.
55:52SPEAKERBut the last thing I was gonna say,
55:53SPEAKERI mean, we're getting off topic a little bit here,
55:54SPEAKERbut the last thing about graphics APIs, I was gonna say,
55:57SPEAKERis it seems like the X factor there
56:00SPEAKERfrom the little bit I know about it
56:01SPEAKERis that the new Unreal Engine stuff,
56:02SPEAKERthat Epic is kind of moving away
56:05SPEAKERfrom hardware graphics APIs entirely
56:07SPEAKERand starting to try to do more stuff
56:08SPEAKERin backend software again.
56:10SPEAKERThis, some of the stuff I--
56:11SPEAKER- With their massive poly counts and all that stuff?
56:13SPEAKER- Yeah, all their virtualized geometry and stuff like that.
56:15SPEAKERIt sounds like there's a Tim Sweeney talk from 10 years ago
56:18SPEAKERwhere he's talking about getting away from the hardware,
56:22SPEAKERthe GPU graphics APIs, and moving back to software,
56:25SPEAKERand it seems like that's actually
56:26SPEAKERthe direction they're going now, so.
56:28SPEAKERI'm getting in over my head here.
56:29SPEAKERI'm just getting a bunch of blank stares here,
56:31SPEAKERso we'll revisit that topic later.
56:34SPEAKER- We'll just chop this bit out, it's fine.
56:37SPEAKER- Oh, if you take it out, then I can't look prescient
56:39SPEAKERwhen everybody's saying this in a year or two.
56:43SPEAKER- I mean, let's talk about,
56:45SPEAKERokay, so there's a couple of things that these cards do
56:47SPEAKERthat everybody else isn't really doing.
56:49SPEAKERI mean, first off, AMD is the only one
56:50SPEAKERwith a PCIe 4 implementation on the motherboard side, right?
56:54SPEAKER'Cause there's no PCIe 4 on Intel.
56:56SPEAKERIs that correct? - I think Rocket Lake
56:57SPEAKERhas it in the-- - Yeah.
56:59SPEAKER- Rocket League is rumored to have it.
57:00SPEAKER- It was supposed to come next spring, but okay.
57:02SPEAKER- It will happen.
57:05SPEAKER- It doesn't seem like that matters right now.
57:07SPEAKERIs that fair?
57:08SPEAKER- I don't think it has mattered.
57:10SPEAKERIt's just like the old, like, every time,
57:12SPEAKERoh, I need to buy 16 PCIe 3
57:15SPEAKER'cause it's so much better than buy 16 PCIe 2,
57:18SPEAKERand I don't think anything is really soaking up
57:22SPEAKERall of that bandwidth that you're getting out of PCIe 4.
57:25SPEAKER- The Ampere cards support PCIe 4, right?
57:29SPEAKER- Yes, those are PCIe 4, and I will say,
57:32SPEAKERone of the things, wrap it a little bit back to Zen 3,
57:35SPEAKERis I said, like, look, if you go
57:36SPEAKERfrom your ridiculous 2080 Ti card to a 3080,
57:41SPEAKERyou will actually see an increase in performance on Zen.
57:44SPEAKERThey didn't say that that was necessarily PCIe 4 at all,
57:48SPEAKERbut my guess is for most consumer applications,
57:52SPEAKERit's not making a difference.
57:53SPEAKERIt hasn't, it just hasn't.
57:56SPEAKERI wish it would, but, you know, again,
57:58SPEAKERare you gonna be a developer that's gonna make a game
58:00SPEAKERyou can sell to five people, you know?
58:02SPEAKER- Right, yeah, I'm sitting here looking at 3080 benchmarks
58:05SPEAKERbetween PCIe 3 and 4, and it's not a big difference at all.
58:08SPEAKER- It seems like the PCIe stuff
58:10SPEAKERis maybe gonna make more difference
58:11SPEAKERwhen the Direct Storage API starts to be online
58:13SPEAKERnext year, the year after. - Yeah, for sure.
58:14SPEAKER- And there's actually a use case for all.
58:16SPEAKERLike, it wouldn't surprise me if we see video cards
58:18SPEAKERin the next few years that have slots for SSDs.
58:23SPEAKER- Yeah, wouldn't that be weird, right?
58:24SPEAKERRemember AMD actually showed that off
58:26SPEAKERfour or five years ago?
58:27SPEAKER- Oh really, I didn't know that.
58:29SPEAKER- Yeah, they had, it was a high-end compute card
58:32SPEAKERthat had M.2, it had local storage.
58:34SPEAKER- Oh, that's wild. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:35SPEAKER- Oh, that would be cool as hell.
58:37SPEAKERThis is, I do have another question
58:38SPEAKERkind of in this vein about the new Radions.
58:42SPEAKERAny thought on this smart access memory,
58:44SPEAKERwhich is what they're calling this, like,
58:46SPEAKERkinda little bandwidth boost?
58:47SPEAKERIf only if you have a Zen 3 and a Radeon 6000,
58:50SPEAKERit's almost like I see people referring to it
58:53SPEAKERas like an RPG set bonus, you know?
58:54SPEAKERIf you have both AMD parts, you get this little boost.
58:58SPEAKER- The McDLT.
59:00SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know any details of it.
59:02SPEAKERI was trying to figure out like, well, what is this?
59:03SPEAKERBecause this is, you know, it's basically,
59:06SPEAKERthe way it works is your CPU has to communicate
59:08SPEAKERwith the GPU through a very small window.
59:11SPEAKERThey say typically it's 256 megs.
59:14SPEAKERThis would allow the CPU to access basically
59:17SPEAKERall of the memory on the graphics card, only with SAM, right?
59:21SPEAKERSo, yeah, it sounds like a lot of people
59:24SPEAKERsort of thinking that it's, you know,
59:26SPEAKERbar or base address register, some part of PCIe,
59:30SPEAKERbut it's not really clear to me what it is.
59:32SPEAKERThey also did say that it's something
59:35SPEAKERthey hadn't told any developers about.
59:37SPEAKERSo I think it could be pretty cool
59:41SPEAKERbecause if you think about it, you, this could be
59:44SPEAKERperformance boost for them.
59:45SPEAKERIt also could be something that is already
59:47SPEAKERwell being used in Xbox, PlayStation.
59:50SPEAKERAnd I also think that what's interesting to me
59:53SPEAKERis where this could go, which is, so if your CPU
59:58SPEAKERis accessing whatever is in the graphics card's memory,
1:00:03SPEAKERis there a certain point where, you know what,
1:00:04SPEAKERwhy don't we just let the graphics card memory controller
1:00:07SPEAKERrun most of the, call most of the plays, right?
1:00:10SPEAKERAnd then maybe the CPU just does whatever housekeeping
1:00:12SPEAKERwith the system DRAM.
1:00:15SPEAKERYou know, but that, but then you sort of think like,
1:00:16SPEAKERwell, huh, we look at Xbox.
1:00:18SPEAKERIsn't the Xbox and PlayStation architected that way?
1:00:21SPEAKERThere's a single memory controller for the x86 cores
1:00:25SPEAKERas well as their graphics cores.
1:00:26SPEAKERWhy in the world do you need that memory control
1:00:29SPEAKERin the CPU, right?
1:00:30SPEAKERWhy don't we just let the CPU do that?
1:00:32SPEAKER- Interesting.
1:00:33SPEAKERCan we talk about DLSS a little bit?
1:00:35SPEAKERI feel like this is the other big differentiator
1:00:37SPEAKERbetween the AMD cards and the Nvidia cards.
1:00:40SPEAKERAnd like when DLSS rolled out a couple of years ago
1:00:42SPEAKERwith the 2000 series, it kind of sounded like snake oil.
1:00:47SPEAKERAnd the TLDR, if you don't know what DLSS is,
1:00:50SPEAKERbasically they do a ton of frame analysis
1:00:53SPEAKERand machine learning stuff to build a machine learning model
1:00:55SPEAKERto super sample, which can then be used
1:00:58SPEAKEReither to upscale low resolution stuff to play like games
1:01:01SPEAKERat now 8K apparently, or to increase image quality
1:01:08SPEAKERas if you were doing super sampling AA, anti-aliasing
1:01:12SPEAKERwithout the 4X performance that you get
1:01:15SPEAKERby doing actual super sampling.
1:01:17SPEAKERAnd the upshot is at 1080p, 1440p, 4K and 8K,
1:01:25SPEAKERat 1080p you can get increased visual quality,
1:01:27SPEAKERat 4K and 1440p, you can run at like 1080p frame rates
1:01:32SPEAKERwith much higher resolutions.
1:01:34SPEAKERAnd like looking at the image quality comparisons
1:01:37SPEAKERand actually using it in person,
1:01:38SPEAKERit doesn't feel like snake oil anymore.
1:01:41SPEAKER- I'm with you, I wrote this feature off
1:01:44SPEAKERuntil I tried it myself and like, holy crap.
1:01:46SPEAKER- Well, and it feels like the thing that,
1:01:49SPEAKERthe reason it doesn't feel like snake oil
1:01:50SPEAKERis you might have a minor,
1:01:53SPEAKERyou might have an increase in like weird glitches
1:01:55SPEAKERoccasionally where the machine learning kind of fails
1:01:57SPEAKERin interesting ways, but more than that,
1:02:00SPEAKERit smooths out the frame rate in such a way
1:02:02SPEAKERthat like if you're sensitive to a micro stutter
1:02:04SPEAKERand the frame rate itches, it's magic.
1:02:08SPEAKERLike you're trading a little bit of image fidelity
1:02:11SPEAKERfor a lot of frame rate stability.
1:02:13SPEAKERAnd it seems like an increasingly big deal,
1:02:17SPEAKERespecially if you're playing at 4K,
1:02:19SPEAKERlike realistically nobody's playing at 8K
1:02:21SPEAKERfor the next several years on these cards.
1:02:24SPEAKERBut at 4K, which I think is something that we should address
1:02:27SPEAKERand is like a place that people are gonna be playing games
1:02:31SPEAKERover the next two, three years,
1:02:32SPEAKERit really makes a difference.
1:02:34SPEAKER- Even at 1440p, like it just in the couple of weeks
1:02:37SPEAKERsince I got my 3080, I've been messing with it,
1:02:39SPEAKERlike in control, I did some side-by-side
1:02:41SPEAKERand I was hard pressed to tell the difference
1:02:43SPEAKERbetween the DLSS 1440p.
1:02:46SPEAKER- You have to like pause the game
1:02:47SPEAKERand get into photo mode and stuff like that
1:02:49SPEAKERand do zoom ins and things like that
1:02:50SPEAKERin my experience to see the difference.
1:02:51SPEAKER- Between native 1440p and whatever it was rendering out
1:02:54SPEAKERwith DLSS on, which was like 1700 by something.
1:02:56SPEAKERSo like dramatically lower than actual native resolution.
1:02:59SPEAKERI basically couldn't tell the difference
1:03:01SPEAKERexcept that the frame rate was smoother.
1:03:03SPEAKER- Except for the frame rate is like butter.
1:03:06SPEAKERSo you can tell in GeForce experience
1:03:08SPEAKERif you're having an NVIDIA card,
1:03:09SPEAKERyou can flip on the performance meter now
1:03:12SPEAKERand they show you the 99% frame time,
1:03:14SPEAKERwhich is like it shows you what your average frame rate is
1:03:16SPEAKERwith the fastest 99% of frames.
1:03:18SPEAKERSo you see where your sags are better
1:03:23SPEAKERand it shows up a lot there.
1:03:25SPEAKERAMD doesn't, like this hardware has the compute cores
1:03:29SPEAKERto do a DLSS equivalent,
1:03:31SPEAKERbut they don't have a solution ready.
1:03:32SPEAKERAnd it seems like to implement this,
1:03:36SPEAKERthere needs to be both backend machine learning stuff
1:03:40SPEAKERset up on the AMD side,
1:03:42SPEAKERwhere they can run these games
1:03:43SPEAKERon these massive compute clusters
1:03:44SPEAKERand generate really high frames
1:03:46SPEAKERand basically run through every part of the game
1:03:49SPEAKERover and over and over again until they get enough data
1:03:51SPEAKERto let the machine learning algorithms fill in the gaps
1:03:54SPEAKERbased on the context of what's around those pixels.
1:03:56SPEAKER'Cause basically what they're doing is taking one pixel
1:03:58SPEAKERand turning it into four, right?
1:04:01SPEAKERAnd I think I would not have said
1:04:06SPEAKERthat this was a weakness before
1:04:07SPEAKERand I feel like it maybe is
1:04:09SPEAKERafter spending some time with the 3080 cards
1:04:11SPEAKERand the DLSS2 stuff.
1:04:13SPEAKER- It's probably worth noting.
1:04:15SPEAKERI don't know if you saw that blog post Microsoft put up
1:04:17SPEAKERabout the RDNA2 features in the Series X.
1:04:20SPEAKER- This is the one where they said basically,
1:04:23SPEAKERis this in response to the RDNA2
1:04:27SPEAKERbeing the DirectX compatible, Xbox compatible?
1:04:30SPEAKERThis was their kind of chest beating like,
1:04:31SPEAKERwe're the only console in the market
1:04:32SPEAKERwith full RDNA2 spec implemented,
1:04:35SPEAKERwhich kind of meaningless 'cause obviously Sony
1:04:36SPEAKERis just doing their own thing to achieve equivalents.
1:04:39SPEAKERBut the reason I bring it up is there is a phrase in here
1:04:43SPEAKERwhere they refer to improved visual quality via techniques
1:04:46SPEAKERsuch as machine learning powered super resolution,
1:04:49SPEAKERwhich has to be the same thing, right?
1:04:51SPEAKERThat's basically, but that's lowercase.
1:04:53SPEAKERSo that's not like their fancy name for a feature
1:04:55SPEAKERthat they are coming up with to compete with DLSS,
1:04:57SPEAKERbut it sounds like they are working on it.
1:04:59SPEAKER- And I think AMD has actually talked
1:05:01SPEAKERabout a super resolution feature, right?
1:05:02SPEAKERSo that's basically leveraging that, yeah.
1:05:05SPEAKER- They said it's coming, it'll run on this hardware.
1:05:07SPEAKERIt's just not there yet.
1:05:08SPEAKER- Just not at launch, okay.
1:05:09SPEAKER- I mean, I assume it requires partnership
1:05:13SPEAKER'cause they're gonna have to build hooks into the game
1:05:15SPEAKERto be able to render on the compute clusters
1:05:17SPEAKERat those high resolutions
1:05:18SPEAKERand to play the game in an automated way.
1:05:21SPEAKERLike there has to be some backend work done.
1:05:23SPEAKERAnd this is an instance where Nvidia spending a ton of money
1:05:25SPEAKERon DevRel makes a big difference
1:05:27SPEAKERfor the number of games that support this.
1:05:29SPEAKERBut I mean, even with DLSS one and two,
1:05:33SPEAKERthere's still only a handful of,
1:05:34SPEAKERlike it's like Watch Dogs and Control and Death Stranding
1:05:38SPEAKERand maybe Metro are the ones
1:05:39SPEAKERthat kind of mattered in the beginning.
1:05:41SPEAKERAnd I think Valhalla maybe supports it as well,
1:05:44SPEAKERbut it's not like every game comes out and supports DLSS.
1:05:47SPEAKER- I wonder though how this plays out
1:05:49SPEAKERbecause I've heard this from other people too.
1:05:51SPEAKERIn my own Brad is like, yeah, DLSS 2.0 is no joke.
1:05:54SPEAKERIt's awesome, right?
1:05:55SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:05:56SPEAKERAnd it is a serious peg plus for buying an Nvidia card
1:06:02SPEAKERor an AMD card.
1:06:04SPEAKERI do wonder how it plays out in the long-term though,
1:06:06SPEAKERbecause it's very dependent on game developers.
1:06:10SPEAKERSo yeah, if you have Xbox,
1:06:13SPEAKERit's like if you're doing super resolution for Xbox,
1:06:18SPEAKERyou must just throw in the PC version too.
1:06:19SPEAKERDoesn't this,
1:06:20SPEAKERit seems to me that it'll play out for AMD in the end.
1:06:23SPEAKER- Oh, sure, yeah.
1:06:24SPEAKER- It'll be very similar to-
1:06:25SPEAKER- That's a good point.
1:06:27SPEAKER- FreeSync and G-Sync battles, right?
1:06:29SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:06:30SPEAKER- G-Sync was clearly superior, but FreeSync was cheaper
1:06:33SPEAKERand everybody did it so.
1:06:33SPEAKER- And open.
1:06:35SPEAKER- And open, sort of open.
1:06:36SPEAKER- Sort of, sort of.
1:06:37SPEAKER- But like in the end, FreeSync sort of won,
1:06:40SPEAKERbut until Nvidia flipped them on their back and called it,
1:06:42SPEAKERoh, it's G-Sync compatible, is it FreeSync?
1:06:46SPEAKERNo, no, it's FreeSync compatible.
1:06:47SPEAKEROkay, I want FreeSync compatible.
1:06:49SPEAKERI mean, I want G-Sync.
1:06:50SPEAKER- It's like a marketing master stroke
1:06:52SPEAKERthat even FreeSync monitors are just branded as G-Sync.
1:06:54SPEAKER- Just imagine like waking up like,
1:06:57SPEAKERoh, let me read the paper.
1:06:58SPEAKERLike, hey, where's all our FreeSync monitors?
1:07:00SPEAKERThey're all marked as G-Sync now.
1:07:01SPEAKER- I mean, these ASUS monitors I just got are only FreeSync,
1:07:04SPEAKERbut they just had a giant fat G-Sync sticker on them
1:07:07SPEAKERwhen I got them.
1:07:08SPEAKERLike it's, it's like a coup that they pulled off.
1:07:11SPEAKER- So you have to respect that.
1:07:12SPEAKER- Well, and then the other thing I wonder
1:07:14SPEAKERis for stuff like live games,
1:07:15SPEAKERlike Fortnite supports DLSS now,
1:07:17SPEAKERand it means that you can turn on
1:07:18SPEAKERthe new ray tracing features in Fortnite
1:07:20SPEAKERand get a playable frame rate on a 3080,
1:07:22SPEAKERbut like Fortnite's a live game.
1:07:25SPEAKEREpic is constantly changing assets in that game.
1:07:28SPEAKERAnd I wonder what overhead it adds for the developer
1:07:31SPEAKERin terms of like, how early do they have to have
1:07:33SPEAKERthat stuff ready before they can push it out?
1:07:35SPEAKERAnd I know being like a massive multi-platform game,
1:07:38SPEAKERlike Fortnite is,
1:07:39SPEAKERlike they have to worry about everything from the switches
1:07:42SPEAKERand the PS4 and the Xbox's quality process,
1:07:44SPEAKERbut still like you're in a situation where
1:07:48SPEAKERlike they can't just dump a patch out
1:07:49SPEAKERthat changes a bunch of assets
1:07:51SPEAKERand change everything over to Halloween skins
1:07:53SPEAKERbecause that's gonna mess up the DLSS presumably,
1:07:55SPEAKERand they're gonna have to retrain all those algorithms.
1:07:57SPEAKERSo like, I'm, it's gonna,
1:08:01SPEAKERlike we said this at the beginning of the show,
1:08:03SPEAKERit's a real weird few years for benchmarking
1:08:05SPEAKER'cause on one hand you have like some magical, mystical,
1:08:07SPEAKERwe're gonna machine learning this shit up,
1:08:09SPEAKERbut it actually works.
1:08:10SPEAKERAnd then on the other hand,
1:08:11SPEAKERwho knows what ray tracing does to benchmarks
1:08:13SPEAKERand like all bets are kind of off, so.
1:08:17SPEAKER- Well, yeah, I mean, it's,
1:08:19SPEAKERthe nice thing about the CPU testing is it's pretty clear,
1:08:23SPEAKERI spend less time doing this encode
1:08:25SPEAKERor I do spend less time doing a render.
1:08:28SPEAKERGraphics people have are really hard
1:08:30SPEAKERbecause I do feel like visual quality
1:08:33SPEAKERis gonna play into this again.
1:08:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:08:36SPEAKER- Because yeah, you've got ray tracing,
1:08:36SPEAKERyou've got VRS as well.
1:08:39SPEAKERSo like what part is what vendor, you know,
1:08:42SPEAKERsort of giving you worse graphics on, you know, so I.
1:08:44SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a lot more subjective for them
1:08:46SPEAKERthan just your world of just hard numbers and time spans
1:08:49SPEAKERand stuff, right?
1:08:50SPEAKER- I remember the hours I spent in the old days
1:08:53SPEAKERat Maximum PC talking to the art designers
1:08:55SPEAKERabout using nearest neighbor up rezzing
1:08:57SPEAKERwhen I was giving them these really low res quincunks
1:09:00SPEAKERversus super sampling AA shots.
1:09:03SPEAKERAnd I was like, look, you gotta nearest neighbor this
1:09:05SPEAKERor else it's good, you're gonna bilineary filter out
1:09:08SPEAKERall of the difference in the pictures
1:09:10SPEAKERand they're gonna look exactly the same.
1:09:11SPEAKERAnd then we'd get the fucking magazine back.
1:09:13SPEAKERAnd because it's a, you know, it's a print thing
1:09:16SPEAKERthat dots are only so small.
1:09:17SPEAKERIt was blurred out anyway, it was a complete.
1:09:19SPEAKER- Yeah, it didn't matter.
1:09:20SPEAKER- The YouTube guys have it so easy, that's all I'm saying.
1:09:22SPEAKER- Do you think though it's gonna get back
1:09:24SPEAKERto the visual quality wars of those days
1:09:27SPEAKERwhere they would, so for those who are not old timers,
1:09:31SPEAKERATI and Nvidia would snipe at each other saying,
1:09:34SPEAKERyour AA sucks, look at this.
1:09:35SPEAKER- More like color rendering.
1:09:36SPEAKERThey would complain about color rendering back in the day.
1:09:39SPEAKERYour colors are washed out.
1:09:40SPEAKERDon't get the washed out colors.
1:09:43SPEAKER- I mean, I think that the thing that's changed
1:09:47SPEAKERis that the worlds are so visually complex now
1:09:50SPEAKERand because the pipelines are fully programmable
1:09:53SPEAKERin ways that they weren't back then,
1:09:55SPEAKERit's really up to the art directors
1:09:57SPEAKERand the designers of the games, what they look like.
1:09:59SPEAKERAnd like, we're not, I think the challenge is,
1:10:06SPEAKERdoes AMD's DLSS implementation
1:10:08SPEAKERor Microsoft's DLSS implementation
1:10:11SPEAKERdeliver the same kind of frame rate smoothing
1:10:14SPEAKERat the gate, the resolutions people actually play games at
1:10:17SPEAKERless than how, like you're gonna be able to snipe jank
1:10:21SPEAKERout of these machine learning upscaling algorithms
1:10:24SPEAKERwherever you, like if you pause the game,
1:10:26SPEAKERget loaded up into photo mode and start looking around,
1:10:28SPEAKERyou're gonna be able to find weird stuff
1:10:29SPEAKERwhere the machine learning
1:10:30SPEAKERdoes weird machine learning stuff, right?
1:10:32SPEAKERAnd there's not gonna be any rhyme or reason to it
1:10:36SPEAKER'cause machine learning is weird often.
1:10:38SPEAKERAnd I don't think there's gonna be a clear victor
1:10:43SPEAKERno matter what in that space, I guess.
1:10:46SPEAKERI think it's, you're gonna look at performance
1:10:48SPEAKERand you're gonna say, okay, this one,
1:10:49SPEAKERthe 99% frame rate is here, this one it's here.
1:10:54SPEAKERI think this one's probably better this go round.
1:10:56SPEAKER- Gordon had a really good point though
1:10:57SPEAKERabout the console, specifically the Xbox being AMD based
1:11:01SPEAKERsince it's DirectX compatible,
1:11:02SPEAKERthat a lot of stuff will trickle down from consoles
1:11:05SPEAKERback to PC for the AMD hardware
1:11:06SPEAKER'cause that's just how it works.
1:11:07SPEAKERYou know, like consoles kind of dictate
1:11:09SPEAKERdevelopment for everything.
1:11:10SPEAKER- Well, and it seems like this,
1:11:12SPEAKERlike it seems like there's a benefit to having
1:11:15SPEAKERwhat is essentially the native DirectX GPU, right?
1:11:18SPEAKERLike if, in terms of, if you wanna play the big games
1:11:21SPEAKERthat are coming out on consoles,
1:11:23SPEAKERit seems like this maybe is the right choice,
1:11:25SPEAKERDLSS aside.
1:11:27SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:11:28SPEAKER- We have, Brad, I know you'd have
1:11:30SPEAKERjust a couple of minutes left.
1:11:33SPEAKER- Should we just quickly run through the models?
1:11:35SPEAKER- Yeah, I think we should do that.
1:11:36SPEAKERIt's, there's, what is it, 6800, 6800 XT and 6900 XT?
1:11:41SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:11:42SPEAKER- Do those map pretty cleanly to 30, 70, 80, and 90?
1:11:46SPEAKER- It seems, we don't know performance yet.
1:11:48SPEAKERI mean, we know the performance that they said.
1:11:51SPEAKERAMD is generally pretty reliable on that,
1:11:53SPEAKERbut I'd like to wait until the actual benchmarks land
1:11:55SPEAKERand we don't have these cards.
1:11:57SPEAKERThe memory bus is the same on all three cards,
1:12:00SPEAKERwhich is really a trip.
1:12:01SPEAKERI didn't, I wasn't able to find memory clocks.
1:12:04SPEAKEREverybody was talking about mega textiles,
1:12:06SPEAKERmega textures per second and bandwidth.
1:12:10SPEAKERI mean, I could have done the clock math,
1:12:11SPEAKERbut it was like three o'clock in the morning.
1:12:12SPEAKERI was putting together the show notes last night
1:12:13SPEAKERafter watching all the election stuff.
1:12:15SPEAKERAnd I wasn't capable of that.
1:12:17SPEAKER- Steve Kornacki, Steve Kornacki is not the only one
1:12:19SPEAKERwho can't do math.
1:12:20SPEAKER- Look, math on math, doing live math is hard,
1:12:23SPEAKERbut the prices are, the 6800 is 580 bucks.
1:12:26SPEAKERIt's got 3840 shader units.
1:12:30SPEAKERThe XT is 4608 shader units for 650 bucks.
1:12:34SPEAKERAnd the 6900 is a grand for 5100 shader units.
1:12:38SPEAKERThe compute cores are like, they jump from 60 to 72 to 80.
1:12:43SPEAKERAnd like, that's the place that I'm kind of interested
1:12:46SPEAKERto see what the impact is.
1:12:48SPEAKERI think, like, I think you're going to do either the,
1:12:51SPEAKEReither of the 6800s are going to be fine at your 1080Ps,
1:12:55SPEAKERyour 1440Ps, and probably when they get their DLSS equivalent
1:12:59SPEAKERonline at 4K as well for single player stuff, especially.
1:13:02SPEAKERLike if you're playing single player stuff at 4K 30,
1:13:05SPEAKERyou're going to be fine on any of these cards.
1:13:08SPEAKERThe 6900 feels like a card that like shoots the gap
1:13:11SPEAKERbetween the 3080 and 3090 on paper.
1:13:14SPEAKERAnd I don't--
1:13:15SPEAKER- And in price for that.
1:13:16SPEAKER- Yeah, and in price.
1:13:17SPEAKER- $1,000.
1:13:18SPEAKER- I don't know.
1:13:20SPEAKERI'm going to be, I'm super interested to see
1:13:22SPEAKERwhat the benchmarks look like on that.
1:13:24SPEAKERI bet it's a real low.
1:13:25SPEAKERI bet it's a part that they, like,
1:13:27SPEAKERif you're going to spend that much money,
1:13:28SPEAKERyou're probably going to buy a 3090 and get, go all the way.
1:13:31SPEAKERBut I mean, the 3090 has a lot of weird overhead.
1:13:33SPEAKERLike you got to have, it's,
1:13:34SPEAKERit's pretty much the maximum size for PCI express card.
1:13:38SPEAKERIt's, you need a giant power supply for that thing.
1:13:40SPEAKERIt's a big chonker.
1:13:42SPEAKERLike maybe, and it takes up two and a half, three slots.
1:13:44SPEAKERSo like maybe this, maybe since this, this does,
1:13:49SPEAKERthis is a normal size card.
1:13:50SPEAKERMaybe that's the argument is if you need the most power
1:13:53SPEAKERthat'll fit in your mini ITX case, here's, here's your,
1:13:56SPEAKERhere's your best bet.
1:13:57SPEAKER- Sure, yeah, less power.
1:13:58SPEAKERI do think that the RX 6900 XT is,
1:14:01SPEAKERis the most disruptive of those because they, you know,
1:14:05SPEAKERI think Nvidia really did sort of price that 3090,
1:14:12SPEAKERprobably not expecting AMD to be as close as,
1:14:15SPEAKERas they claim they are.
1:14:17SPEAKERSo I think the, the 6900 XT, if it's, you know,
1:14:21SPEAKER98% the performance of a, you know, a 3090,
1:14:25SPEAKERthen a lot of people are going to say,
1:14:26SPEAKERwell, why do I want a 3090, right?
1:14:27SPEAKERSo.
1:14:28SPEAKER- I think even if it's 90, like if it's,
1:14:29SPEAKERif it's 33% of the price for 80, 90% of the performance,
1:14:34SPEAKERand you're not doing heavy metal, like,
1:14:37SPEAKERlike realistically the 3090 is a card for people who want to
1:14:40SPEAKERplay games at ridiculous resolutions, professional streamers,
1:14:43SPEAKERand like, like hardware learning scientists.
1:14:46SPEAKERYeah, machine learning scientists, stuff like that.
1:14:48SPEAKER- It's really the, it's, it's sort of pitched for that.
1:14:50SPEAKERIt's almost, it was priced at a price where they like,
1:14:52SPEAKERyou know, no one's going to buy this.
1:14:53SPEAKER- Yeah. I think that's where AMD did most of their
1:14:57SPEAKERmessing with Nvidia.
1:14:58SPEAKERThe other parts are probably correctly priced to,
1:15:01SPEAKERyou know, compete and, you know,
1:15:03SPEAKERI think the prices sort of tell you about where they're
1:15:06SPEAKERgoing to perform.
1:15:07SPEAKERYou know, there'll be right there with their quilting cards
1:15:09SPEAKERand, you know, they were going to expect that, you know,
1:15:13SPEAKERNvidia might cut prices a little bit or maybe just it'll be
1:15:16SPEAKERmore attractive.
1:15:17SPEAKER- That's, that's really the thing to me here on both,
1:15:19SPEAKERon both fronts, CPU and graphics.
1:15:20SPEAKERIt's like, it's just great to see AMD come out swinging
1:15:22SPEAKERagain after so long.
1:15:23SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:15:24SPEAKER- Because we needed more competition in that space for
1:15:26SPEAKERpricing for, for, you know,
1:15:28SPEAKERfeature development for availability for that matter.
1:15:30SPEAKERLike it's nice that it's nice that these AMD cards are
1:15:33SPEAKERpretty good apparently in a world where nobody can get their
1:15:35SPEAKERhands on a 3080 right now.
1:15:37SPEAKER- Yeah. They were very confident that they are,
1:15:39SPEAKERthey are back.
1:15:39SPEAKERThey are going to be swinging with Nvidia.
1:15:42SPEAKER- Yeah. This is just better, better for everybody.
1:15:44SPEAKER- I mean, as we saw with Intel,
1:15:47SPEAKERit would be nice if we got to that with Nvidia,
1:15:49SPEAKERbut I don't think we're there yet because, you know,
1:15:52SPEAKERNvidia is not in the place until has been.
1:15:54SPEAKERSo I think Nvidia will, they always sort of,
1:15:57SPEAKERthey're always four steps ahead of everybody.
1:15:59SPEAKERIt feels like.
1:16:00SPEAKER- I mean, they, they're,
1:16:01SPEAKERtheir R and D pipeline is deep and well-funded.
1:16:04SPEAKERSo.
1:16:05SPEAKER- It's crazy.
1:16:05SPEAKER- Yeah. I guess that'll wrap it up for us.
1:16:08SPEAKERAs always, this is the part of the show where we thank our
1:16:11SPEAKERpatrons,
1:16:12SPEAKERthe wonderful people who make the show possible every week.
1:16:15SPEAKERAnd thanks to all. Let's see, we're at, hold on.
1:16:19SPEAKERWe are at 1259 patrons now.
1:16:23SPEAKERSo thank you to all 1259 of the wonderful people who make
1:16:26SPEAKERthe show possible.
1:16:27SPEAKER- I just, I just heard the little windows,
1:16:28SPEAKERtada sound.
1:16:31SPEAKER- But a special thanks to our executive producer,
1:16:34SPEAKERto your patrons, Jacob Chappell, Andrew Cotton,
1:16:36SPEAKERand David Allen.
1:16:37SPEAKERAs always an extra special thanks to Julian for taking care
1:16:42SPEAKERof the transcripts for the tech pod for us.
1:16:44SPEAKERIf you would like to read the tech pod machine translated
1:16:48SPEAKERwith the help of our, our good friend, Julian, you can,
1:16:52SPEAKERthey're on the page at techpod.content.town.
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1:16:59SPEAKERSo, and let us know if you're using the transcripts so that
1:17:02SPEAKERwe know whether it's worth continuing to do them.
1:17:04SPEAKERThanks, Julian.
1:17:05SPEAKERIf you would like to know how to join the tech pod discord,
1:17:08SPEAKERthe fabulous, fabulous and well-informed tech.
1:17:10SPEAKERHey Brad, there's a new channel.
1:17:12SPEAKER- Oh?
1:17:13SPEAKER- Wait, no, that was the other discord.
1:17:15SPEAKER(laughing)
1:17:16SPEAKER- Shoot.
1:17:16SPEAKER- Well now you have to make that, what was,
1:17:17SPEAKERwhat was the channel in the other discord?
1:17:19SPEAKER- The other discord has a booze, booze and drinking channel,
1:17:21SPEAKERwhich isn't like my jam, but people are really into it.
1:17:24SPEAKERI see that adding a parenting channel,
1:17:26SPEAKER'cause we don't have a parenting channel
1:17:27SPEAKERand there's a lot of parents.
1:17:28SPEAKER- That's not the worst idea.
1:17:29SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:17:30SPEAKER- We have a, yeah, we have a food channel
1:17:31SPEAKERwhere occasional whiskey talk pops up, so that's fine.
1:17:33SPEAKER- That's true.
1:17:34SPEAKER- Parenting would go well right under work and career stuff.
1:17:37SPEAKER- That's true.
1:17:38SPEAKER- I would say.
1:17:39SPEAKER- That's a grownup conversation for grownup places.
1:17:41SPEAKERI've been enjoying the movies and TV channel
1:17:43SPEAKERthat you added a couple of weeks ago though.
1:17:44SPEAKERThat's been, that's been nice for me to come and talk about
1:17:46SPEAKERmy Star Wars business.
1:17:47SPEAKER- It's just a nice, nice hangout at a time
1:17:49SPEAKERwhen people need a place to hang out.
1:17:51SPEAKER- Your Star Wars business.
1:17:52SPEAKER- How do you feel about the Mando, Gordon?
1:17:54SPEAKER- I like it, I feel it's everything,
1:17:57SPEAKERif you could sort of, if you could take every movie made
1:18:00SPEAKERsince the end of Return of the Jedi
1:18:02SPEAKERand just basically blast them into the Sarlacc pit
1:18:07SPEAKERand we just had the Mandalorian,
1:18:08SPEAKERI would be totally fine with that, you know.
1:18:10SPEAKER(laughing)
1:18:11SPEAKERIt satisfies the whole Star Wars craving.
1:18:15SPEAKERI mean, the closest thing it's probably gotten to me
1:18:17SPEAKERis Rogue One, the end of Rogue One anyway.
1:18:20SPEAKERI mean, that was really very, it didn't,
1:18:23SPEAKERnot everything has to be about Han, Luke, and Leia, you know,
1:18:26SPEAKERand I think it really does it well.
1:18:28SPEAKER- Agreed.
1:18:29SPEAKERSo if you wanna find out about the TechPod Discord,
1:18:31SPEAKERhow to back to Patreon, you can go to patreon.com/techpod.
1:18:34SPEAKERThat's patreon.com/techpod.
1:18:37SPEAKERGordon, this is the part of the show where you plug things.
1:18:40SPEAKERWhere can people find you?
1:18:42SPEAKER- You can find me over at pcworld.com
1:18:43SPEAKERand also you can catch our live show,
1:18:46SPEAKERThe Full Nerd on YouTube, Twitch, and we do that live,
1:18:50SPEAKERso we take questions.
1:18:51SPEAKERIt's awesome because you can actually have conversations
1:18:54SPEAKERwith us in real time on YouTube
1:18:56SPEAKERand they're reasonable conversations.
1:18:59SPEAKER- What?
1:18:59SPEAKER- I'm gonna say that, reasonable conversations on YouTube.
1:19:02SPEAKER- Wow.
1:19:03SPEAKER- Live with people, yes.
1:19:04SPEAKER- What is this promised land you have discovered?
1:19:06SPEAKERBring me there.
1:19:08SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, it's weird.
1:19:08SPEAKER- Do you wanna find you on Twitter or anything like that
1:19:10SPEAKERor are you still doing social media?
1:19:11SPEAKER- Yeah, it's, I think I have no idea
1:19:15SPEAKER'cause I don't know how to use Twitter,
1:19:17SPEAKERnever got the manual, but I think it's @gordonong on Twitter.
1:19:20SPEAKER- Very good.
1:19:21SPEAKERGordon, thank you so much.
1:19:22SPEAKER- I have to go check.
1:19:23SPEAKER- Yeah, thank you for letting us pick your brain.
1:19:24SPEAKER- No, that's it, that's right,
1:19:25SPEAKER'cause there's actually an actual person
1:19:27SPEAKERwho has Gordon Ma on Twitter who's not me.
1:19:31SPEAKER- Oh, I'm sorry.
1:19:32SPEAKERI didn't have that problem on Twitter.
1:19:35SPEAKERI managed to nail that one, but you got in early.
1:19:39SPEAKERYeah, thank you so much for coming by, Gordon.
1:19:40SPEAKERWe'll have to talk about it again sometime.
1:19:41SPEAKERThis was my last.
1:19:42SPEAKER- Yeah, I really appreciate it.
1:19:43SPEAKER- I feel like I should get you to yell it,
1:19:45SPEAKERso I was hoping I was gonna ask you at the Mandalorian
1:19:46SPEAKERand you were gonna start yelling, but I guess--
1:19:49SPEAKER- No, I just, it's so clever, it's so clever, you know?
1:19:52SPEAKERAnd it's just--
1:19:53SPEAKER- Have you looked at how they do the, how the volume,
1:19:55SPEAKERhow the way they shoot that thing works?
1:19:56SPEAKERHave you watched any of the behind the scenes on that?
1:19:58SPEAKER- I haven't, but I was talking to my friend
1:20:00SPEAKERwho's looking for like media advice
1:20:02SPEAKERon how to pitch the thing she's doing,
1:20:04SPEAKERand she says, "We're actually doing it."
1:20:06SPEAKERThey're not doing it in the Mandalorian
1:20:07SPEAKER'cause they're still doing post effects, so.
1:20:10SPEAKER- Well, it's the behind the scenes on Disney+
1:20:14SPEAKERfor the first season of the Mandalorian shows
1:20:16SPEAKERhow the volume works and how they use Unreal
1:20:19SPEAKERto like change backgrounds and stuff live
1:20:21SPEAKERand how they get all those reflections on,
1:20:22SPEAKERit's unbelievable, it's magic.
1:20:24SPEAKERIt's super cool, but thank you so much for coming by.
1:20:26SPEAKEREverybody should check out Gordon at PC World
1:20:28SPEAKERand The Full Nerd, and we will see you all next week.
1:20:32SPEAKERBye, everybody.
1:20:33SPEAKER(upbeat music)
1:20:40SPEAKER(upbeat music)