00:00SPEAKERapparently cars are into protesting is what sounds like is happening outside
00:04SPEAKERare they autonomous i don't know there's a lot of hong is is it that stephen king story trucks
00:08SPEAKERis that what's come to christine the wait christine also wait did he surely he didn't write two stories
00:14SPEAKERabout cars that uh became autonomous he wrote three didn't he also write that monster trucks
00:19SPEAKERmovie about the cars with the monster inside the trucks with the monster inside maximum overdrive
00:23SPEAKERmaximum overdrive is about cars i think i think that's based on the story trucks but it's i don't
00:28SPEAKERknow man christine is about a car that's haunted he actually really he wrote a short story in his
00:32SPEAKERmost recent collection that's also about a car that's actually an alien and eats people
00:36SPEAKERmonster cars didn't his son isn't that nusferatu book about um a vampire it's a vampire that drives
00:43SPEAKERaround it's not a vampire that's a car i thought you could say a vampire car which i might be
00:47SPEAKERinterested anyway i read that joe hill book that first one when we were like at a house with my
00:52SPEAKERparents in in uh like up in sonoma and i was so freaked out by it that i didn't sleep the entire
01:00SPEAKERnight i guess you know he came by it honest he was probably he was probably born with it the knack
01:05SPEAKERto scare yeah so what are the cars doing where the cars processing sounded like the craziest
01:11SPEAKERcacophony of constant horn honking that i have ever heard for about the last hour outside wait
01:17SPEAKERso you're saying the cars are horny and they're outside your house that's exactly what's happening
01:20SPEAKERyou should be careful they're here for your doors they're here for a reason i don't know what it is
01:24SPEAKERbut yeah i don't know i'm confused like i'm not exactly in like downtown urban density here it's
01:30SPEAKERlike you know as as san francisco goes is pretty quiet and residential out here so i don't know
01:34SPEAKERwhat i'm not sure what the you're you're in the the sideshow zone though for sure like what i
01:40SPEAKERguess i used to live out by you and we would have a fairly regular street racing component but
01:45SPEAKERusually not at let me check my watch seven o'clock at night definitely get some some good motorcycle
01:50SPEAKERroars up and down the street occasionally but but this is more like you know protesting is very much
01:56SPEAKERan on-foot kind of face-to-face situation i should have gone out there i should have gone to see what
02:00SPEAKERexactly is this is the setup where cars are just hanging out and honking non-stop look i definitely
02:06SPEAKERwe had when i lived in the inner sunset 10 15 years ago i was walking the dog one morning
02:13SPEAKERand i watched a guy at like three o'clock in the morning because she was she was she wanted to do a
02:18SPEAKERlate morning early morning barf and i watched a guy do a series of donuts in an intersection
02:25SPEAKERand then just sideswipe four cars parked on the side of the street before putting it into
02:30SPEAKERtelephone pole wow and i like i had my cell phone i picked it up and i called 9-1-1 they were like
02:37SPEAKERyeah are you at blah blah blah and blah blah blah i was like yeah like we already know it's like
02:41SPEAKERokay thanks we're done hey you did your civic duty yeah narked
03:11SPEAKERwelcome to brad and will made a tech pod i'm will brad hey brad hello feels like we just did this
03:27SPEAKERyeah like hours ago 12 hours ago or so this is today is a twofer book ending the day with
03:33SPEAKERpodcasts right um if you don't know we're referencing the may edition of the pat patron only
03:40SPEAKERexclusive podcast episode i see you're changing your ways i heard the past start to come out and
03:45SPEAKERthen you're like i tried patron look we have a question about that for next month we'll get to
03:50SPEAKERthat in a couple of weeks oh boy um yeah we talked about uh i man i don't even remember at this point
03:56SPEAKERwe talked about projects i think and also rambled about some stuff we're doing at home but yes also
04:01SPEAKERyour um situation yeah so uh i don't know like a few months ago maybe sometime in 19 the 1900s
04:11SPEAKERand like the birth of the universe uh i had a friend who tried to hack me like repeatedly
04:18SPEAKERrelentlessly yeah i think it's like i think we touched on it in the infosec episode a little bit
04:22SPEAKERright no it happened after the info so that's right no actually that's right because you were
04:27SPEAKERlike like the next week after we did the infosec thing you were like man this would have been a
04:31SPEAKERgreat story for that thing uh where we told people how not to get hacked because i just got hacked
04:36SPEAKERwell and so the irony is of course it's the stuff it's always the places that you can't do
04:43SPEAKERlike i don't want to get in the details of how they how they did the house but i will tell you
04:46SPEAKERwhat i did to prevent future harassment um but like the stuff that we talked about was really
04:52SPEAKERuseful but there's another layer so this is called this a follow-up for the infosec episode
04:57SPEAKERone of the things that became clear in the process of this is that if you have somebody who's willing
05:01SPEAKERto do a social engineering hack and they know your email address they can reset passwords pretty much
05:08SPEAKERat will you know initiate the password reset process which often locks you out of the account
05:12SPEAKERif you do it like three or four times in a row or they can just cancel your accounts on people
05:18SPEAKERwhose customer service reps aren't up to snuff and and i had that on multiple services like people
05:24SPEAKERtrying this person was trying to disable my um my uh publicly public accounts with this public
05:31SPEAKERfacing email so what i did was something i think we touched on a little bit in the infosec episode
05:36SPEAKERwas uh spun up a completely random never been used never associated with me email address that is
05:44SPEAKERsecured with google's enhanced account protection stuff which uses um hardware encryption on your
05:50SPEAKERphone whether it's iphone or i or android or and or um a ub key like a hardware encryption device
05:57SPEAKERor something similar to completely lock down your phone so that anytime you try to access this
06:02SPEAKERaccount from a new device you have to have the hardware token in order to use it that's pretty
06:07SPEAKERintense it is it is i'm gonna go and tell you it was scary signing up the for the eap account
06:13SPEAKERbecause it's like look here are the ways that you can lose this account and if you lose these things
06:18SPEAKERyou can never recover this account yikes and then i made that account the recovery account for
06:23SPEAKERliterally everything that is important to me good be careful put it put it in your foot put that
06:28SPEAKERemail address in your fire safe so i have the codes in the fire safe as well as other secure
06:34SPEAKERlocations and the ub keys in the fire i have two ub keys ones in the fire safe and what is on my
06:38SPEAKERperson you're prepared yeah my first question and obviously you're comfortable with this or you
06:44SPEAKERwouldn't have done it but yeah um i guess the thing that comes to mind is that google's reputation for
06:52SPEAKERtracking and data handling and stuff is maybe not as sterling as it once was which we will get into
06:59SPEAKERhere in a minute so and i know this is a custom program or that the very aim of this type of
07:06SPEAKERaccount is to protect you but so yeah the point of this this type of account uh this was what they
07:12SPEAKERthey this was their response to podesta's emails getting hacked the 2016 things political stuff
07:18SPEAKERright and and by um by state level agents so not like your normal garden variety hacker that's
07:25SPEAKERcoming after somebody like me yes but you know the russians state actors yeah yes um and and
07:32SPEAKERthey advertise that they have had no breaches where people followed the recommended procedures
07:38SPEAKERall right um and you know this is where their high level access this is how those people access it
07:45SPEAKEReven goes all the way down brad to like not allowing you to connect stuff to google's apis
07:49SPEAKERokay so it's pretty like you can't you can't hook up your your smart things to your this google
07:55SPEAKERaccount because they don't want other apis getting access to the data at a low level that is that is
08:00SPEAKERpretty thorough but but so you would take this even even with the concerns around google's
08:05SPEAKERhandling of privacy and security and the just greater visibility of gmail as a service over
08:10SPEAKERlike maybe a little bit more security through obscurity of using a slightly less well-known
08:16SPEAKERservice so my feeling on that this is a good question because my my feeling on that is that
08:22SPEAKERthe people that are at google and are concerned about security on these accounts and in general
08:28SPEAKERlike user security and stuff like that are probably more capable even on the larger
08:34SPEAKERthreat profile more public service okay than i am yes plus the email address is already obscure
08:42SPEAKERso it's true no there's one level there that's like to generate the email address i literally
08:46SPEAKERopened up one password told it to generate a three phase three three word passphrase
08:52SPEAKERand registered the gmail account with that and a 64 character password and all the two factor stuff
08:57SPEAKERand you know all that so yeah it's uh i do i mean i ask one more question and if yeah if you if you
09:04SPEAKERdon't want to say then we can cut this but i'm not telling you the email address brad well i was just
09:08SPEAKERgoing to ask if it's a gmail.com address or if they have a different domain for these it's a
09:12SPEAKERgmail.com address uh you can find out if you i'll put a link in the show notes but it's uh called
09:17SPEAKERgoogle's and uh uh uh enhanced account protection i think eap okay is what the acronym is and now
09:24SPEAKERyou've got me feeling like maybe i should go check this out it's so my problem is that my email
09:31SPEAKERaddress is a variation of my first name and last name so there's no ambiguity and i also happen to
09:36SPEAKERshare a first name last name with somebody who's very famous who could that be well will smith he's
09:42SPEAKERthe he's the catcher for the dodgers oh wow man he's what a catcher too he really yeah he's real
09:47SPEAKERgood they're not playing this year so it's the the heat's a little off he's an excellent baseball
09:52SPEAKERman um but yeah so so uh that stuff is i i feel like google security is better like if you look at
10:01SPEAKERthe level the number of places that failure security failure can happen on a domain you
10:05SPEAKERcontrol yourself or something like proton mail you know proton mail is probably the next best
10:11SPEAKERalternative to this the the um it was the other thing i considered the danger of hosting the
10:18SPEAKERdomain myself means that you can be domain jacked the danger of setting up those domains means that
10:24SPEAKERif you don't set up the low level stuff right in the domain for the server that you're hosting
10:27SPEAKERthen it won't be encrypted properly along the way and you'd be mad in the middle or whatever
10:31SPEAKERyou're talking about running your own actual mail server yeah even even i wouldn't try something
10:37SPEAKERlike that when i try to do everything myself i used to do that i did it for a long time yeah
10:42SPEAKERand then then gmail came along and at the same time spam got really bad right and i was just
10:46SPEAKERlike this is i'm never going to be as good as these people are so i'm i give up the world
10:50SPEAKERgot way more complicated and quite a bit more frightening exactly do you want to talk about
10:56SPEAKERthe actual so that's the update on infosec stuff we promised a long time ago and that was a good
11:02SPEAKERprotect yourself it can happen to anyone um but if you if people are interested i will post a
11:09SPEAKERlike a step-by-step blog post of what i did to to you know the goal was not just to keep the
11:16SPEAKERmain account from getting hacked but also to make the recovery to put all the recovery addresses for
11:24SPEAKERall of the accounts that are important some place that they're safe right yes um so that like if my
11:30SPEAKERphone if if somebody sim jacked me i wouldn't lose you know my gmail wouldn't recover to a phone
11:38SPEAKERnumber that was sim jacked and then i lose the gmail and everything else right cascades down
11:42SPEAKERfrom this yes um it did not feel good this process i'll just say that sure like it was an unpleasant
11:50SPEAKERhighly stressful five days i would love to read that blog post if you end up doing that though
11:54SPEAKERi would like to see all that laid out yeah i i would do that on e-paper so what we're going
12:01SPEAKERto talk about today is privacy yeah which is what you alluded to um you know for a long time people
12:08SPEAKERhave talked about why the big tech companies are maybe bad for your personal privacy and i don't
12:13SPEAKERthink a lot of people have concrete examples of why they why that why that loss of personal like
12:20SPEAKERthe you know who cares if google sees what i browse on the web i'm not doing
12:24SPEAKERanything dangerous or illegal i'm not breaking any laws why does it matter
12:29SPEAKERand um it's a fair response um but it's more the amount of data that's being collected and the type
12:38SPEAKERof data that's being collected and what the different companies are using it for is all
12:43SPEAKERover the place and ranges from you know damaging to the fabric of our society up to uh you know
12:51SPEAKERyou know late stage the dangers of late stage capitalism so uh i i thought maybe the way to
12:57SPEAKERstart this is to map the big five tech companies you know and see where they where they land with
13:05SPEAKERlike you know with their let's say uh what their goals are for your data and how they how they use
13:14SPEAKERyour data internally as a as based on their public personas and activities and this is this is big
13:21SPEAKERfive by data gathering right not by like market cap because we're not we're not this is not a
13:25SPEAKERfang situation right what's fang uh facebook apple amazon netflix google kind of it is a fang
13:33SPEAKERsituation but it's not that five it's the other five that's what i meant netflix just doesn't
13:37SPEAKERbelong in that conversation right i mean netflix is probably collecting data but it's not the same
13:42SPEAKERwho cares yeah yeah this is a this is a fam swap out netflix for microsoft and then you're there
13:48SPEAKERyeah that's right is that right that's it yeah that seems right so uh we need we need a better
13:53SPEAKERwe need that's not a pronounceable acronym we need a better afem okay sure that's yeah that
13:59SPEAKERone rolls right off the top yeah it's like fang but anyway so it's uh amazon apple facebook
14:05SPEAKERmicrosoft and google it's the data five yeah and and like these are relevant not in this case
14:12SPEAKERamazon is actually relevant both for the e-commerce side where they sell you you know everything in
14:18SPEAKERthe world but also the fact that they host aws which is you know potentially where it's where
14:25SPEAKERnetflix lives right um but microsoft uh tracks data they have a search engine they have products
14:32SPEAKERto search data windows is essentially free and has become a service that we all use versus a thing
14:36SPEAKERthat we pay for now um a facebook is sells ads to everyone in the world and tracks data so they can
14:44SPEAKERmicro target those ads and google aspires to do that even though they're not as good at the
14:48SPEAKERmicro targeting but they would if they could well and and also they want to collect data about
14:53SPEAKERliterally everything in the world like they're they're the google you know the futurama brains
14:59SPEAKERthat want to really absorb all the information in the universe and destroy it so it can't change
15:03SPEAKERthat's google great do you know even then apple sells phones and laptops basically yeah and like
15:09SPEAKERmovies and books and other apps is it okay is it premature to ask this question before we talk about
15:14SPEAKERthis uh do you want to just do a quick ranking in your mind of like best to worst on like based on
15:21SPEAKERmy on our exceptions right now i bet i was gonna say i bet i could guess your ranking i want to i
15:27SPEAKERwant you to tell me my ranking and tell me your ranking at the same time they're probably the
15:30SPEAKERsame thing okay based on i think that's probably probably right based on my my exposure to this
15:35SPEAKERsubject um let's say apple is probably the best on this i i think that is the story that they tell
15:42SPEAKERokay and i think that they well bear bear bear in mind that best does not necessarily mean good or
15:48SPEAKERgreat just relative to the others i think they're probably pretty good in the categories where they
15:54SPEAKERreally matter like phone data and things like that i was gonna say let's say that the the
15:58SPEAKERsan bernardino fbi i message unlocking thing probably paved a whole lot of runway for them
16:05SPEAKERon this yeah that and the fact that they roll patches out when they discover a root kit that
16:10SPEAKERlaw enforcement or spy agencies are using yeah is is pretty good right the place that apple fails in
16:16SPEAKERmy eyes is when they don't pay enough attention to their ecosystem and there are holes there
16:23SPEAKERthat apps can exploit i saw some i don't i have no idea how credible this person is but there was
16:27SPEAKERsome security researcher on twitter a month or two ago uh saying that current ios is just swiss
16:34SPEAKERcheese like horrible horrible security situation i i think everything i think as the devices get
16:41SPEAKERmore complex that is the thing that inevitably happens hopefully i'm sure that i have to assume
16:46SPEAKERthat's still a priority for them and they will get and catch back up i i mean i think
16:52SPEAKERi i would hope so yeah um all right i'm gonna say apple is probably the best here i feel like
17:00SPEAKERmicrosoft and amazon kind of like maybe like three and say you think tied you know i feel like
17:10SPEAKERmaybe this is the result of a very effective pr campaign but i feel like microsoft is a lot
17:15SPEAKERbetter about this than they used to be i somewhat better i think that i would say that microsoft
17:20SPEAKERwould be my number two okay well you know but as soon as i say that then that reminds me of the
17:25SPEAKERongoing fiasco around windows 10 telemetry and people that like desperately want to turn all
17:29SPEAKERthat stuff off and like you couldn't i think when windows 10 first came out right like didn't
17:33SPEAKERdidn't people have to scream and holler for a while before they added controls to disable a
17:37SPEAKERlot of that stuff there's there's all sorts of nightmare stuff in windows 10 that they send back
17:42SPEAKERand and then on top of that they also distribute apps to people for money like candy crush and
17:49SPEAKERstuff like that right end up on your machine whether you want them or not which is okay
17:53SPEAKERmaybe i might have to i might have to downgrade microsoft to a most most of my concerns so
17:59SPEAKERmicrosoft has a search engine which is a questionable business to be in these days without
18:04SPEAKERa active business model and uh they definitely with windows 10 you are the product not the
18:11SPEAKERcustomer right great wonderful because like realistically nobody's switching to linux i
18:17SPEAKERmean maybe like three people are i'm gonna switch my nasty linux sooner or later that's a different
18:22SPEAKERyes okay sorry yeah that's a whole different okay so microsoft's number two amazon you think number
18:27SPEAKERlike for me amazon and microsoft are kind of the chaotic neutrals and that yes some things
18:32SPEAKERthey're probably really good and on some things they're really bad yeah um and and not necessarily
18:38SPEAKERlike i don't think it's a part of an intentional policy so i i almost feel like there are two
18:42SPEAKERrankings to be to be had completed here one is sort of like their intentions like kind of an
18:48SPEAKERabstract morality yeah and then the other one is like kind of in practice what they're actually
18:53SPEAKERdoing i think the only one of these companies that said hey here's what our abstract morality is is
18:58SPEAKERapple right also it's not like facebook is going to come out and say hey it's our goal to let
19:02SPEAKERadvertisers reach every single consumer on the planet directly with a message that's tailored
19:08SPEAKERto speak to them okay we're okay destroying democracy if we actually i guess they probably
19:13SPEAKERdo say that at ad conferences keep boosting our stock prices the reason i brought that up is uh
19:19SPEAKERamazon i feel like probably does not have the best of intentions if i had to guess but amazon is
19:24SPEAKERtrying to move look when you when you search on amazon for a 35 pound bag of lucky charms
19:30SPEAKERmarshmallows and then every third party ad you see for two weeks is for 35 pound bags and 33 pound
19:37SPEAKERbags and 37 pound bags and 16 pound bags to see exactly what the number of pounds of lucky charms
19:44SPEAKERmarshmallows it is to get you to turn that inclination into a purchase that is their
19:49SPEAKERintent it is pretty clear which i think makes it it's a little it's a little better i think okay
19:56SPEAKERyeah sure i i was just gonna say i feel like the relatively limited scope of what i use amazon
20:01SPEAKERservices for kind of limits the damage there it's like you know i'm not i'm trying like i'm trying
20:06SPEAKERto think outside of like their retail ecosystem what do i even use my amazon login for and i can't
20:12SPEAKERcome up with much you know so it's like it's kind of it's kind of contained to their core business
20:17SPEAKERas opposed to like like a google or or a you know most of these others kind of extend their tendrils
20:24SPEAKERout into all kinds of different segments of your life right so so the thing that the thing that
20:30SPEAKERabout amazon and it's funny because you don't ever actually hear about amazon and data collection is
20:34SPEAKERthat it seems like they are pretty straightforward like they're probably collecting if you have like
20:42SPEAKERi have the kindle app on and the amazon app on my phone right they probably know where i am at any
20:46SPEAKERgiven day and like what my routes are like and and how much time i spend on public transit versus
20:53SPEAKERin my car and things like that and and then they also have the in-house speakers with the alexa
20:59SPEAKERdevices that that have sometimes always on cameras and always on microphones completely forgot about
21:04SPEAKERthe echo stuff yeah okay never mind they are well i mean it's easy to be paranoid about the always
21:11SPEAKERon microphones but given the way machine learning stuff works on those devices okay i and the fact
21:18SPEAKERthat if they got caught sending everything up you would be able to tell by looking at your firewalls
21:23SPEAKERi i'm kind of okay like i i don't think that those things are malicious i think they're just
21:29SPEAKERtrying to expand markets like amazon's goal is to expand and infill every market on earth of course
21:34SPEAKERof course they are the new microsoft in that respect what was the old uh what was the old
21:38SPEAKERmicrosoft like like unofficial slogan use windows or we'll fucking kill you that's the one here's
21:44SPEAKERour episode title um god what was it it was uh oh man i oh every computer on uh every ever computer
21:51SPEAKERfor on every no no no no no it was their it was their approach to entering new markets um oh it's
21:58SPEAKERlike a 4x type thing it's like a it's literally like an expand expand it's like kind of like that
22:03SPEAKERbut it's uh oh god i i can't it's it's it's what it's it's how they explained why they bought into
22:09SPEAKERit right embrace extend extinguish that's it i just had i had to google it it was embrace new
22:14SPEAKERtechnology extend into that new technology extinguish all competitors in that technology
22:20SPEAKERand it seems like it seems like amazon that's what amazon does or wants to do that's a seattle
22:23SPEAKERthing i guess because amazon is the same thing like what are they putting in the water up there
22:27SPEAKERwe just don't we don't we don't think about amazon doing that anymore because it's been so long since
22:31SPEAKERthere were new markets for amazon to expand into right we've forgotten yeah and there were some
22:35SPEAKERthat they tried and you know like the kindle fire tablet type stuff like they're they haven't been
22:39SPEAKERsuccessful everywhere anyway you say that except for the kindle fire tablets are incredibly popular
22:44SPEAKERin young children oh so they're taking the long view and they're just getting the kids hooked
22:48SPEAKERwhen they're little by selling cheap tablets to kids that have like it's funny amazon actually
22:54SPEAKERi think has the best ecosystem for kids because they're not relying on algorithms and stuff like
22:59SPEAKERthat to pick programming they actually have humans programming books and apps and videos
23:04SPEAKERthat are age appropriate for kids and it's just all about spending money on amazon it's really
23:09SPEAKERincredible content it's like here's a here's uh jimmy's first ipad purchase on amazon.com
23:15SPEAKERi'm kidding but like that stuff is it's kind of like a library that you pay 10 bucks a month to
23:22SPEAKERjoin well great you're making a real frowny face over there yeah i like not i like the public
23:29SPEAKERlibrary it's a nice place to be we don't have a fire tablet in our house just for the record okay
23:34SPEAKERthat's good to know um anyway yeah like obviously google and then facebook are bringing up the rear
23:39SPEAKERhere with facebook at a distant last right i think i mean i don't i don't know i think it's
23:47SPEAKERdefinitely true that facebook has a worse reputation in this space i don't know that
23:52SPEAKERwhat they do is demonstrably worse than what google does in terms of specifically in terms
23:56SPEAKERof tracking and specifically okay maybe maybe maybe i'm biased because i'm subconsciously also
24:01SPEAKERthinking about like the way their news algorithms operate and how they choose to serve certain
24:07SPEAKERcontent or don't etc i think you're probably right in that facebook is at a disadvantage
24:13SPEAKERhere and it's going to come in and last place because they're they're they are evil in ways
24:19SPEAKERthat are outside of the scope of this conversation well no i was going to say it was probably because
24:24SPEAKERgoogle hasn't successfully had a social network ever right so they haven't had the opportunity
24:28SPEAKERto be evil in this particular way you think they do it too i mean did they ever did they ever mean
24:33SPEAKERdo no evil or was that always a front i the people i know who worked at google 15 10 years ago
24:42SPEAKERwere firmly in the do no evil okay i believe that yeah i i i believe yeah yeah i mean i
24:48SPEAKERbet there were a lot of there were a lot of kind of like uh oss kind of free software
24:55SPEAKERyeah types right i mean like these sort of went to work there after working at subversion right
24:59SPEAKERlike yes the crusading open software and like closed privacy types and and just to be clear like
25:08SPEAKERin terms of net so here's the other difference with google is that the net positive that google
25:14SPEAKERoffers by selling advertising in exchange for search engine access is that we don't live in
25:20SPEAKERthe arthur clark world where access to information is gated by your ability to pay for access to
25:25SPEAKERinformation okay right like i don't know if you've ever read 2001 but there's a significant passages
25:31SPEAKERabout haywood floyd having to start his paid agent to go out and do the the the network searches
25:38SPEAKERto look at what's to look up the information that he wants from all the available databases
25:44SPEAKERkind of like a um what's the what's the library the legal i was gonna like lexis nexus i was just
25:49SPEAKERlike i was just about to bring that up as like that's the real world example of that right
25:53SPEAKERyeah and and that was the vision that we all had until sergei and larry and eric schmidt were like
25:58SPEAKERhey you know we could probably get advertisers to pay for this if we make the ads usable and good
26:03SPEAKERand then the ads race to the bottom and that whole thing has been a shit show and you know
26:08SPEAKERbut as a result of that we have free maps for everywhere in the world and we have you know uh
26:17SPEAKERthe ability to type something into a machine a box on our computer and have full access to to
26:24SPEAKERall of the human information that's ever been collected yeah i guess i'll just try to forget
26:28SPEAKERthe day that i noticed that that free map started labeling certain addresses home and work with
26:33SPEAKERthe word without my gobel without my input yeah i mean yeah uh look hey true story for a long time
26:41SPEAKERgoogle thought that jina's office was the the when my daughter was very new and we were like she would
26:48SPEAKERjust drive someplace to a mall to go walk when the weather was bad so google thought that her
26:53SPEAKERoffice was the mall for a long time um that's how we're going to defeat the robots yeah just
27:00SPEAKERbe unpredictable look as long as you leave never leave the house they can never tell where you work
27:05SPEAKERthat's right yeah think about that yeah what if home and work are the same place what now ai
27:10SPEAKERwhat if we're just shut in all the time um so yeah i think facebook is probably the worst
27:16SPEAKERbecause the thing that you're trading for the access to that personal information with facebook
27:20SPEAKERisn't infinite free maps and all of the human information in the world but it's pictures of
27:25SPEAKERyour friends kids and like angry people yelling about being racist on on their friends yes and
27:32SPEAKERpropaganda that is let's say damaging the fabric of society having a deleterious effect on our
27:39SPEAKERnation yes agreed yeah like there's nothing there's not much i mean whatever other people
27:44SPEAKERhave different perspectives but there isn't there's not much of redeeming value to be had
27:47SPEAKERon facebook in my in my view do you still have an account i have one and i and i should probably
27:56SPEAKERdelete it like i haven't used it i i actually i stopped using facebook way before it was cool to
28:01SPEAKERstop using facebook yeah sorry i don't even also also i don't own a tv um oh god you have a fucking
28:08SPEAKERtv that was i'm joking that's just okay that's the thing don't don't don't lie to the readers
28:13SPEAKERthat's that's the stereotype um but but i i stopped using facebook just because i'm anti-social
28:19SPEAKERbecause i objected to facebook uh on a moral level uh so but then it turned but then it turned out
28:25SPEAKERthat they were a terrible company and uh so i should have deleted it by now like i have a
28:31SPEAKERpost on that account leaders i don't know that the company is well like i know yeah i will say
28:36SPEAKERin the last week you have been seeing a surprising number of the rank and file at that company
28:41SPEAKERtalking publicly kind of making this is a bit of a state this is going to turn into a different
28:47SPEAKERconversation very quickly but um yeah i haven't i haven't posted my facebook account in years
28:51SPEAKERand i don't know why i even still have it i i'm sure i'm sure it's not that hard to extract all
28:56SPEAKERof your whatever's on their photos and so forth and then just kill it right so i went through
29:00SPEAKERthat process you can deactivate the account which means you no longer show up in people's
29:04SPEAKERsearches and like for all intents and purposes you aren't there okay they now let you do that
29:09SPEAKERand leave facebook messenger live which turns out to be really useful because i have people
29:14SPEAKERthat i only ever talk to on facebook messenger yeah um more if you're like me and you think to
29:19SPEAKERlook at it twice a year and then you see oh i this person must think i've been ignoring them for six
29:23SPEAKERmonths yeah this person invited me to their birthday party in 2018 right shit yeah um okay
29:30SPEAKERso how do they know all this stuff this is the this is the question and it's it's it used to be
29:34SPEAKERreally straightforward because it used to be that people would put a tracking cookie advertising
29:39SPEAKERnetworks would put a tracking cookie so this is why google bought double click is because they
29:42SPEAKERhad tracking cookies on every website in the country because everybody had double click ads
29:47SPEAKERand with that tracking cookie they could tell things like how long you stayed on a page
29:51SPEAKERwhat pages you saw how long you stayed on a page um things like that and from there they could
29:57SPEAKERinfer a lot of information about like your your personal beliefs your political beliefs your
30:01SPEAKERreligion your gender your age whether you had kids whether you were a good consumer whether
30:06SPEAKERyou were looking for a new car and they could tailor your ad experience accordingly
30:11SPEAKERand then uh facebook introduced the like button remember that remember when we were like we should
30:18SPEAKERput this like button on all the whiskey sites and and people inside the whiskey media organization
30:23SPEAKERat the time who shall remain nameless like this thing is bullshit and it's tracking all sorts of
30:26SPEAKERhorrible data no and then we did it anyway which was the right business choice but the wrong anyway
30:31SPEAKERit doesn't matter the point is i'm sorry dave a and b uh they with the script they can tell
30:40SPEAKERa lot more information so they can tell things like how far down the page you scroll did you
30:45SPEAKERclick on any images uh where did you go after there where did you come from sometimes things
30:52SPEAKERlike that uh and from that they can build a really really good psychographic profile of not just the
30:58SPEAKERpeople who have facebook accounts but literally everyone who uses the web good and that's gone
31:04SPEAKEReven further with uh they have a tracking pixel now that works kind of the same way
31:09SPEAKERand then as we've shifted to mobile over the last 12 13 years uh apps uh bill include tracking every
31:16SPEAKERapp you've ever used probably has some sort of tracking thing hang on when i'm sorry can you
31:21SPEAKERexpand on tracking pixel for a second tracking pixel is just a single pixel image that goes on
31:26SPEAKERthe page damn it okay i was afraid that's exactly what that was that is yeah i feel like that is
31:31SPEAKERjust full-on sinister uh i mean it's you know it's complicated it's like look you they're not even
31:40SPEAKERhiding it i mean they are hiding it yeah they are hiding it because you can't see the pixel but
31:44SPEAKERthey're not but they're not they're not pretending anymore they yeah they're definitely not pretending
31:48SPEAKERand if you look at like well i mean i have the pie hole running right now so all of my tracking
31:53SPEAKERpixels are gone my facebook container keeps saying nothing so the the mobile stuff added another
32:00SPEAKERlevel because you're they it allows them to directly measure so if you have the google app
32:03SPEAKERthe facebook app the amazon app i assume the edge apps i haven't looked at their terms of service
32:08SPEAKERthen they know and and if you use the location services for ios devices that come with
32:14SPEAKERthings like iMessage and and uh find my friends and find my iphone then they track the position
32:21SPEAKERof your devices independently of you constantly you know you can load up your location tracking
32:27SPEAKERreport in google if you have the google maps app or the google search app installed and it will
32:32SPEAKERtell you where you've been during the entirety of the time you've been running that app which for me
32:37SPEAKERgoes back to like 2010 2008 wow um which is nice if you want to know like where you had dinner when
32:44SPEAKERyou were in san diego last time very convenient sure but you know maybe that's a little bit too
32:53SPEAKERmuch information for companies to have it's a pretty fine-grained amount of yeah like that's
32:58SPEAKERa pretty that's a pretty detailed spectrum of a lot of your life well and so then what happens
33:05SPEAKERfrom there with facebook because they also know who your friends are i mean google knows who your
33:09SPEAKERfriends are because they're the people that presumably email you but i never ever email my
33:14SPEAKERfriends because they're my friends so why would you do that to them yeah no i wouldn't do that to
33:18SPEAKERyou um so you know facebook can tell that oh you were actually with these eight people on tuesday
33:27SPEAKERnight maybe this is bored immediately before that you you googled you know you searched for how to
33:34SPEAKERum how to uh play the board game azul and they know that your board game night is on tuesday
33:41SPEAKERnight so they know next uh you know sunday a week to start talking putting board game stuff into your
33:45SPEAKERfeed and and things like that and this is all well and good except for you can also buy advertising
33:51SPEAKERthat targets people incredibly specifically on a little bit google but to a really specific
33:57SPEAKERextent on facebook um and you can you can find out what facebook knows about you by going to your
34:04SPEAKERpersonality profile on the the facebook page when it's there's like a let me i'm going to it right
34:11SPEAKERnow you can go to settings they move it all the time so it's hard to find um ads where is it
34:21SPEAKERsettings ads and it tells you your interests i go through and remove those constantly but um
34:29SPEAKERlike for example mine are uh strike action nobility ios consumer electronics social
34:36SPEAKERnetwork hip-hop music spotify computers mobile phones those are categories they come up with
34:40SPEAKERthis these are categories they pulled out algorithmically based on my behaviors who
34:44SPEAKERi'm friends with uh where i go like they know i like ways they know i like humans of new york
34:49SPEAKERthat old blog i don't use facebook very much anymore obviously uh they know i like uh adam
34:56SPEAKERsavage they know i like the renaissance fair because i think that's probably the closest
35:00SPEAKERthing they had to make her fair they don't need to track data for that who doesn't like the renaissance
35:04SPEAKERfair i mean i'm kind of ambivalent i'm joking a lot of work i'm joking i've never been to a
35:09SPEAKERrenaissance fair i got no beef with the people who like to dress up and beat each other with swords
35:14SPEAKERi'll eat i'll eat a turkey leg anytime i've seen i've seen you eat a turkey leg that is that has
35:19SPEAKERhappened in my presence so so yeah they basically that's all well and good if they're just trying
35:25SPEAKERto do late-stage capitalism business and sell you a bunch more socks but when you get to something
35:31SPEAKERlike camper jam and elliptica which we haven't talked about at all in the podcast and are
35:35SPEAKERprobably gonna get hate mail for but whatever uh then you can target you not only can build a
35:41SPEAKERprofile based on what the interests of the person are and whether they're potentially you know
35:47SPEAKERsomebody that can be convinced to believe things yeah but you also can build a profile that tells
35:53SPEAKERyou specifically what kind of arguments to use based on what's worked with your friends
35:58SPEAKERwhat's caused your friends to engage with new ideas and things like that oh i guess i remember
36:03SPEAKERsome of that stuff came out of some of those congressional hearings a few years ago right
36:07SPEAKERi mean something came out of those congressional hearings nothing useful or that stuff was floating
36:13SPEAKERaround since the 2016 election right some of the ideas that you're you're talking about
36:16SPEAKERspecifically like the styles of argumentation and stuff like that yes and there's actually been like
36:24SPEAKERin 2015 there was a research study done by cambridge and stanford in which they looked
36:29SPEAKERat facebook profiles of 86 000 participants matched their on-platform data against
36:35SPEAKERpsychological profiles that they got them to fill out by filling out a personality test app
36:41SPEAKERand they their psychographics on the facebook profiles were more accurate
36:47SPEAKERthan than they ever would have expected great wonderful um like presumably because of that
36:54SPEAKERif you use facebook or even if you don't use facebook facebook probably knows more about
36:59SPEAKERyou than your spouse does or your partner does wonderful you're married to facebook is what
37:04SPEAKERyou're saying hmm i feel like i'd probably have a nicer house if i was married to facebook brad
37:10SPEAKERit's fair so those profiles those profiles turn out to be incredibly useful if you want to
37:16SPEAKERtarget people to convince them that they live in a alternate version of reality for example it seems
37:23SPEAKERyeah which is why and the nice thing about that is you only have to convince them once and then
37:28SPEAKERthey sign up to hit the follow button right and then they just keep getting those things in their
37:31SPEAKERfeet over and over again uh so yeah great and and like just to be clear when we talk about google
37:38SPEAKERbeing okay on this stuff i hadn't even considered youtube which is a complete shit show on this
37:42SPEAKERregard right um because like if you if you if you watch videos about steel beams and and gasoline
37:50SPEAKERin any combination you're going to get fucked up 911 just uh uh deniers yes and and horrific stuff
37:58SPEAKERlike that in your feed like it's it is very easy to go from well okay this one doesn't work anymore
38:03SPEAKERbecause people put it in articles and they feel like actively work to remove it but you use people
38:09SPEAKERto go from i want to learn about the moon landing and i want to learn about spacewalks to the moon
38:16SPEAKERlandings were fake in like three videos great yeah wonderful so that's it that's how the that's how
38:24SPEAKERthe tracking oh so how do you avoid this yeah yes that was going to be my question that's the real
38:29SPEAKERquestion right uh you can block ads and block everything that facebook and google and probably
38:35SPEAKERamazon and microsoft do yeah this is this this conversation is convincing me that i should
38:39SPEAKERprobably have some level of blocking that at least targets this kind of tracking if nothing else
38:44SPEAKERi uh one of the other things is is uh there's a browser you might have heard of it called firefox
38:50SPEAKERit's been around for a while yeah uh they include something that they actually push fire firefox is
38:57SPEAKERreally interesting because it's like they you know they have to make money they don't have it's not
39:00SPEAKERlike chrome where google where you're trading a really fast convenient browser for access to your
39:05SPEAKERdata at a really low level um face firefox has to make money somehow and one of the but they also
39:13SPEAKERare really good at defaults so like their defaults are pretty secure and then they pop things up when
39:18SPEAKERthey add new features like they added this thing called facebook container a couple months ago
39:23SPEAKERthat basically knows what all the facebook trackers looks like look like and they isolate
39:29SPEAKERthe ones that are put there if you don't have a like basically if you if you have a facebook
39:34SPEAKERcookie that shows you're logged into facebook you get one face like facebook knows who you are and
39:39SPEAKERthey track that across all sites you kind of signed up for that if you don't have a facebook
39:43SPEAKERcookie on your thing they put a cookie on there that basically builds a shadow profile of you in
39:47SPEAKERtheir system that measures who you are and what you believe in at a really low level um and this
39:55SPEAKERwhat this does is makes a separate cookie for every single site you visit so it craps up their
39:59SPEAKERdatabase with a bunch of one-offs which is pretty i think a good thing sure um i like that and blocks
40:06SPEAKERthem yeah nice nice soft way to push back um you can also do ad blockers like ghostry is a is one
40:13SPEAKERthat i've used in the past for this type of thing and like you know we both are content people we
40:18SPEAKERboth have made money with advertising over the years so that is to be clear that is the
40:23SPEAKERkind of fills off for principled reason i guess i would say that i don't tend to block ads because
40:28SPEAKERit feels somewhat it's shitty somewhat hypocritical well and also we've gone in the last 10 years from
40:34SPEAKERlike five percent of people blocking ads uh to something like 25 to 40 depending on which markets
40:41SPEAKERyou're in blocking ads um i'm happy to block ads on sites that i pay for like i have a giant bomb
40:48SPEAKERsubscription i have a washington post subscription i have a new york time subscription yeah i block
40:52SPEAKERads on all of those sites sorry we don't have any there's nothing i know you but you guys don't a lot
40:56SPEAKERof people charge money for ads and then still run ads still yes um the uh so ghostry adblock plus
41:05SPEAKERboth find solutions for that ghostry is cross-platform so you can run all your devices and then
41:10SPEAKERit shares your settings for whitelist and blacklists across all of those and if you're
41:15SPEAKERworried about not generating revenue for your favorite websites you can always go the blacklist
41:20SPEAKERonly approach which i like to think of that as the tonsil stone rule okay where once i see an
41:26SPEAKERad for tonsil stones or something equally appalling on your site i'm going to block ads forever you
41:30SPEAKERhave to bring up the tonsil stones again it's super fucking gross man they shouldn't do tonsil
41:35SPEAKERstone ads you're asking to get blocked doing that stuff now uh and then if you have kids that use
41:42SPEAKERdevices you can use things like piehole which is a raspberry pi based ad blocker that lives on your
41:51SPEAKERnetwork it serves as your dns server and it basically says anytime your any of your devices
41:58SPEAKERon your network ask for uh i have requests to sites that are either blocked because they're
42:05SPEAKERspyware tracking or because they're ads like google ads services or facebook ad services or
42:10SPEAKERwhatever they just say we don't know who this is we don't know what this is the ad's not going to
42:14SPEAKERwork and then the ad times out and you get a no ad page and your page loads a lot faster uh here's
42:20SPEAKERone i just thought of that i hope you know more about than i do okay because i didn't think to
42:24SPEAKERresearch it because it just popped into my head but talking about piehole like you're you're
42:27SPEAKERessentially you're running kind of like a cached or caching dns server locally and it's it's kind
42:33SPEAKERof letting things through or not depending on what they are but then it still has to go on to a remote
42:38SPEAKERlike an authoritative dns right eventually um something i'm starting to see and maybe you've
42:42SPEAKERseen this as well is that i'm starting to see those remote like the authoritative dns is also
42:48SPEAKERstarting to incorporate some level of this kind of blocking well um like what did this years ago
42:54SPEAKERand got in trouble for oh interesting well it's i guess it's coming back because like who are the
42:58SPEAKERwho who are the 1.1.1.1 people is that cloud flare that's cloud flare yeah i believe that's right
43:04SPEAKERright so they they launched what is what is the name for that for families that's right they
43:11SPEAKERlaunched did you see that a while back they launched 1.1.1.1 for families and that just is
43:18SPEAKERbasically high power internet filtering uh yes i i like that i think that's a cool idea i also find
43:25SPEAKERreally amusing because it's not actually of course it can't be because they're already using their
43:29SPEAKERstock that stock address for their main one they call it they call it 1.1.1.1 for families but it's
43:36SPEAKERactually 1.1.1.2 i was hoping it was gonna be 1.1.1.69 no that would not be family oriented
43:45SPEAKERyeah that's the one if when you only want porn oh actually i'm sorry they also have a dot three
43:50SPEAKERdot two is no malware and dot three is no malware or adult content so oh wow so like you can set
43:57SPEAKERthat at the dns level now for your kids if you want um and then there's um is it quad nine are
44:03SPEAKERyou familiar with them i i know of quad nine but i don't know who runs it yeah i don't either i've
44:08SPEAKERseen their name let's see this is in collaboration with ibm global cyber alliance and pch the packet
44:16SPEAKERclearinghouse oh i love a packet clearinghouse uh you can ed mcmahon comes to your house and gives
44:20SPEAKERyou a check if you win the packet clearinghouse contest i don't know i am curious who runs this
44:24SPEAKERnow but i i have seen oh they're in berkeley um i have seen a number of people talking like they
44:31SPEAKERthink quad nine is a is the business is is is one to trust it looks like they're they are a 501 c3
44:38SPEAKERnon-profit oh that's good anyway uh i don't know how much you know about that stuff but like would
44:43SPEAKERyou would you consider switching to like i'm still using my ifps dns because i just told whatever well
44:49SPEAKERyour isp is you have a good is i also i have a good isp yeah um i i pointed this at i think i
44:56SPEAKERpointed at cloud flare i can't remember when i set it up um no i i know what i did i did google and
45:02SPEAKERthen rolled over to cloud fair uh so there's two things about using non-isp dns servers one
45:10SPEAKERis that if you use stuff that uses edge networks like akamai and the the the global fast dns isn't
45:19SPEAKERset up right for your particular isp you won't hit the right nodes to get the fastest downloads from
45:25SPEAKERstuff like steam and psn and xbox that's that's a pretty big one and like netflix even right
45:29SPEAKERprobably even netflix it's not streaming videos easier because it's not latency dependent and well
45:35SPEAKERand like netflix doesn't use all of your bandwidth but where that will matter is when uh like
45:40SPEAKERmicrosoft's x cloud comes into effect or if stadia ever becomes popular because then you have video
45:44SPEAKERstreaming with latency requirements right so when i used cloud flare when it first when they first
45:50SPEAKERrolled out 1.1.1.1 um i wasn't getting good edge network performance um on atnt's fiber in the bay
45:58SPEAKERarea and the uh i i sent a ticket and they fixed it pretty quickly i haven't gone back and tried
46:03SPEAKERit again so that can be configured yeah it's it's just a matter of them detecting what the what the
46:08SPEAKERnodes are from your dns server right so um it's and the way that stuff works is when you ask for
46:15SPEAKERan akamai address your local router knows hey push the akamai request to here rather than to
46:23SPEAKERsome definitive akamai dns server um the caching works really well on this like it is
46:30SPEAKERit it feels as fast as the google dns that i've used in the past you're talking you're talking
46:35SPEAKERabout your pie hole the pie hole and that's running on like the first gen okay yeah i also have one of
46:42SPEAKERthose i i literally i saw the tonsil stone thing the other day i was like this sucks um i'm i'm
46:49SPEAKERgoing to get rid of this right now and i did and i have no regrets i'm looking to see so uh pie hole
46:58SPEAKERalso comes with some other stuff like some privacy stuff uh obviously you also can filter adult
47:03SPEAKERcontent and things like that if you have kids using the internet um and you can do that on a
47:07SPEAKERper client basis so if you want to check out the porn but don't want your kids to do it then that's
47:11SPEAKERtotally legitimate thing you can do um it's uh it's pretty cool uh other the other thing you can
47:17SPEAKERdo that's a challenge with network-wide blocking is you can set up shortcuts in ios or android
47:23SPEAKERto disable the pie hole for the whole house in in like a five for five or ten or fifteen minutes if
47:29SPEAKERyou need to get past a site that's not working without with the with the blocking on um so like
47:36SPEAKERi was trying to look at my twitter analytics which is on a blocked dot ad domain today and i
47:42SPEAKERhit the button and i was able to look at twitter analytics for five minutes which was a complete
47:46SPEAKERwaste of my time but that's a whole other thing yeah that's handy uh so the only other thing i
47:51SPEAKERcan think to add is um i i just started i don't know if i'm going to switch fully or not i still
47:57SPEAKERuse chrome for better or worse uh but i go ahead i was just saying i switched to firefox more than
48:04SPEAKERa year ago now and the only the big change is that where chrome will put every single tab that
48:12SPEAKERyou have open in memory until you start running out of memory firefox only does like three or four
48:16SPEAKERbased on time okay so like if you have a stalled tab that you haven't opened in three days it takes
48:21SPEAKERa moment for it to load back in but then after that you're you're back in business okay it's
48:26SPEAKERpretty good uses a lot less memory and performance on google stuff seems much better than interesting
48:33SPEAKERthan it has been in the past honestly i was thinking about switching off chrome for yeah
48:36SPEAKERfor performance reasons as much as as security privacy stuff but uh i will say i installed the
48:42SPEAKERnew uh edge based on chromium yeah a few days ago so you know same chaotic neutral chromium sure
48:49SPEAKERsame like rendering engine as chrome under the hood so it looks and feels very similar
48:54SPEAKERon the page but uh going in the settings here like i click the hamburger menu
48:58SPEAKERuh all right i love a hamburger yeah i could man i could really go for hamburger right now privacy
49:03SPEAKERand services is the second option under profiles in that settings list that's pretty good and they
49:10SPEAKERseem to be kind of going for it i think even on the site when i went to download this manually
49:14SPEAKERand install it i think that's how they pitch this browser as like a privacy first kind of thing
49:19SPEAKERand it says like hi brad we value your privacy uh it's got tracking prevention right at the top
49:25SPEAKERthat's what firefox does the same thing okay okay maybe they're just kind of keeping up with the
49:28SPEAKERjoneses there then but like it's it's a pretty like decent straightforward it's got some gigantic
49:34SPEAKERbuttons there's just like basic balanced and strict tracking prevention and some stuff like that
49:39SPEAKERuh it's more than i've seen in chrome i'll say that so the firefox thing has this enhanced
49:44SPEAKERtracking protection that's on by default and the standard level blocks social media trackers
49:49SPEAKERcross-site tracking cookies tracking content in private windows crypto miners and fingerprinters
49:55SPEAKERlike that that's the that's the thing that facebook does um you can turn it up higher
49:59SPEAKERbut this is a may break sites so yeah um i don't know i've blocked 12 127 trackers since september
50:07SPEAKER5th 2019 to the guesses when this feature rolled out that seems like a lot number's gone down a
50:12SPEAKERlot this week since i added the pie hole though i'll be uh yeah imagine that shocking yeah and
50:18SPEAKERyou you got me considering it again now i i've got this piehole jail for my freedom i look into
50:25SPEAKERit it does it's not the piehole people do not officially support installations on free bsd
50:31SPEAKERit was a big i looked at it and it was going to be an enormous pain in the ass that involved
50:35SPEAKERcompiling stuff i was like this is something that if i suggest to brad he'll probably do it
50:38SPEAKERmaybe keep notes well whatever they are transitioning free nast to linux or there is a
50:43SPEAKERlinux product that they just detailed today and are starting to spin up work on so this would fit
50:50SPEAKERnicely in a in a uh in a uh linux what do they call them jail instance uh on linux it's there's
50:56SPEAKERa lot more options there are containers linux containers there's lxc i'm talking linux supports
51:02SPEAKERdocker better well yes there's also docker i'm talking way out of my depth because i've just
51:05SPEAKERstarted looking into that stuff but uh there are more options there um there we go i may not wait
51:10SPEAKERthat long sorry to just hijack this and turn it into a nice conversation you're just gonna go
51:14SPEAKERinto it i might i might just roll my own ubuntu or debbie an installation and just not wait i don't
51:23SPEAKERknow like i it's it's not like i need anything specific that free nass offers at this point
51:29SPEAKERbecause it's not like i just use jails and zfs yeah like all i i i'm capable of doing all that
51:34SPEAKERstuff the command line at this point but it would be a lot of work like i you know i've i've edited
51:39SPEAKERsmb.conf enough to know what i'm doing there yeah but having to do it all yourself without the ui to
51:45SPEAKERautomate a lot of it and stream all seems like a project a lot of work i mean the other thing is
51:50SPEAKERyou don't you don't get the support when something goes wrong of a community that can say oh i'm
51:57SPEAKERhaving the exact same problem in my configuration which is the same as yours yeah i don't know i uh
52:04SPEAKERalso because of the way free free nass works free you know assuming you're not changing the zff
52:11SPEAKERupgrading zfs or downgrading zfs you can always just you know change the boot device yes i set
52:19SPEAKERit up i could give it a shot just see how it goes and then always roll back if you have to that's
52:23SPEAKERtrue it is an option but uh there's a lot more there's a lot more i could say there but we'll
52:28SPEAKERsave it for another time this has been a fun upbeat discussion yeah i'm feeling great about
52:32SPEAKERthe the direction of digital society here that's everything's gonna turn out just fine but you know
52:38SPEAKERif you wanted to listen to something fun and upbeat you could hear us talk about the piehole
52:42SPEAKERsetting up the piehole more talk about the mister yeah talk about my stack of ancient hard drives
52:47SPEAKERit's your huge stack of ancient hard drives you can talk about my like god-tier breakfast sandwich
52:54SPEAKERthat i had here last night sounded really good seriously it was it was the culmination of 10
52:59SPEAKERyears worth of sandwich making all in one eight bite sandwich 12 bite sandwich you can't get back
53:05SPEAKERinto that i haven't had dinner yet i'm gonna go eat dinner as soon as we hang up um and you can
53:09SPEAKERdo that by subscribing to the tech pod patreon which is at patreon.com tech pod um in addition
53:16SPEAKERto the monthly patron only episodes you get uh access to the tech pod discord which is full of
53:23SPEAKERpeople who are much smarter than brad and i talking about really cool stuff constantly
53:27SPEAKERwait you can't say that out loud it's totally true but you can't say that they they look they
53:31SPEAKERcan't hear us this is fine we're gonna edit this part out okay um but yeah it's it's a fascinating
53:36SPEAKERcommunity of wonderful people roman mars calls the the 99 pi listener is beautiful nerds and i think
53:43SPEAKERthat uh i think that we we're gonna take that over because our people are nerdier and more beautiful
53:49SPEAKERthan the 99 pi listeners i agree so yeah and as always thank you to all of our patrons for your
53:55SPEAKERsupport we appreciate you and we couldn't do the show without you uh and extra special thanks to
54:01SPEAKERkurt brownridge jacob chapel andrew cotton and david allen our executive producer level patrons
54:08SPEAKERanyway uh that's uh patreon.com slash check pod as always uh if you want to help the show tell your
54:14SPEAKERfriends leave a review on itunes subscribe subscribe to the patreon free breakfast sandwich
54:19SPEAKERincluded with every pledge no no no nope nope that's not that's a metaphorical outset pick
54:24SPEAKERkuberman will's house he'll whip you up one of these classic socially distancing free picture
54:29SPEAKERof a breakfast there's a picture of the breakfast sandwich on the patreon right now there's going to
54:33SPEAKERbe a responsibly distanced line down the block from your house i ate half of that i was like
54:38SPEAKERthis sandwich is so good i have to take a picture so i took a picture how the action shot i mean it
54:43SPEAKERis like the eggs were perfect the bacon was crisp i said we can't get into the food we have to get
54:48SPEAKERout here i'm hungry at end i put mayonnaise on the english muffin and then griddled the english muffin
54:54SPEAKERso it got all nice and brown and it's i had never even heard of a bacon press before but here we are
55:00SPEAKERhow do you think they make that bacon so flat man something new every day i guess yeah you
55:03SPEAKERgotta have that it's a cast iron just it's like you just put something on top of the bacon it
55:06SPEAKERdoesn't have to be it anyway see you all next week bye everybody
55:31SPEAKERyou