00:00SPEAKERSo last week after we recorded the podcast,
00:02SPEAKERI had my phone up all the way 'cause we do the beeps
00:06SPEAKERto sync up the episode.
00:09SPEAKERAnd then I went out after the podcast
00:11SPEAKERand I was looking at the internet
00:12SPEAKERand it started playing a video
00:14SPEAKERand it was a video of animals making weird noises.
00:19SPEAKERAnd it scared the hell out of everybody
00:22SPEAKERin the living room with me
00:23SPEAKERbecause it was like loud duck eating watermelon
00:28SPEAKERand peas noises like I'm not gonna make the noise,
00:31SPEAKERbut you should just Google ducks eating watermelon,
00:34SPEAKERit's pretty good.
00:35SPEAKER- Way ahead of you, buddy.
00:36SPEAKER- But you watching the watermelon ducks?
00:38SPEAKER- Maybe, maybe, look.
00:40SPEAKER- I love a watermelon duck.
00:41SPEAKER- Not here to divulge my extracurricular activities, but.
00:45SPEAKER- Look, chinchillas doing dust baths, always good.
00:48SPEAKER- I've never understood that.
00:50SPEAKEROwning guinea pigs got us adjacent enough to chinchilla care
00:53SPEAKERthat I came across like chinchilla facts on the regular.
00:56SPEAKER- Oh yeah, no, it's a commitment.
00:58SPEAKER- And the dust bath thing,
00:59SPEAKERlike it sounds kind of cool in a way, but I don't know.
01:03SPEAKER- There's a woman that we follow
01:05SPEAKERthat my daughter and I watch sometimes that has chinchillas
01:08SPEAKERand like she's a good chinchilla influencer
01:12SPEAKER'cause her thing is, yo, nobody should get chinchillas
01:15SPEAKER'cause like you have to keep your house at 60 degrees
01:17SPEAKERor they die. - Oh, what?
01:19SPEAKER- 'Cause they're from the Andes.
01:20SPEAKERSo it's high and cold. - Yeah, sure.
01:24SPEAKER- And like she has to wear a, she wears a respirator
01:27SPEAKERand has a broom in her house that's basically like,
01:30SPEAKERhere's where the chinchillas get the dust baths.
01:32SPEAKER- That's intense.
01:33SPEAKERGuinea pigs are also from the Andes,
01:34SPEAKERbut maybe like the lower Andes
01:36SPEAKER'cause it's not quite that restrictive anyway.
01:39SPEAKER- Yeah, but yeah, I mean, look, they're all rodents in arms.
01:42SPEAKERIt's just how it is. - That's right.
01:44SPEAKERThey are going to rise up one day.
01:45SPEAKER- Okay, so I have a confession, I guess.
01:48SPEAKERI started the call today by saying I discovered
01:50SPEAKERI had 277 tabs open in Firefox, that was too many tabs.
01:56SPEAKER- I think you can do better than that.
01:58SPEAKERAnd so you know what that sounds like to me?
01:59SPEAKERA good start, ha, ha, ha.
02:02SPEAKER- It took me an hour to trim it down.
02:04SPEAKERNow I'm only like two pages on my scroll, so.
02:07SPEAKER- I mean, what is that?
02:08SPEAKERThat's save tabs, I assume.
02:09SPEAKERYou're not hibernating and resuming every day
02:13SPEAKERwith a running ephemeral browser session, right?
02:15SPEAKERLike those are actually saved and will restart
02:17SPEAKERon another machine and so forth.
02:19SPEAKER- Now see, it's interesting you say that.
02:21SPEAKERIt is an eternal session.
02:23SPEAKERI never clear my Firefox session.
02:24SPEAKER- Wait, this is literally one process
02:26SPEAKERthat's been running for?
02:28SPEAKER- Well, no, I mean, I turn off the computer every night.
02:31SPEAKER- So hard to shut off. - I just restore the session.
02:33SPEAKERYeah, yeah, yeah. - Oh, okay, that's what I mean.
02:34SPEAKERThey're saved half. - Yeah.
02:35SPEAKER- Like that's what I'm saying.
02:36SPEAKERI mean, what I mean is like literally the same process ID
02:39SPEAKERrunning for days or weeks at a time.
02:40SPEAKERLike you start a browser and it's that process running
02:43SPEAKERand doesn't get closed and just gets shut down.
02:45SPEAKERI mean, not shut down, but hibernated and resumed,
02:48SPEAKERlike I said.
02:48SPEAKER- Man, I'm paying 78 kilowatts per kilowatt hour here.
02:52SPEAKERI can't afford to leave a computer running 24/7.
02:54SPEAKERAre you kidding? - Well, you can sleep it.
02:55SPEAKERYou can hibernate it.
02:56SPEAKER- Yeah, it's still, I'm not gonna,
02:58SPEAKERit's not worth 10 watts to, you know,
03:00SPEAKERbut the tabs restore when I start.
03:02SPEAKER- But yeah, okay. - It just comes right back.
03:04SPEAKER- Yes, that's what I meant about these are,
03:06SPEAKERthis is a session being restored,
03:07SPEAKERnot one browser running eternally,
03:09SPEAKERwhich is kind of horrifying when you think about it.
03:12SPEAKER- Yeah, I thought about, I mean,
03:13SPEAKER'cause you can do those container,
03:15SPEAKERyou can do like the tab groups now
03:17SPEAKERin pretty much all major browsers, I think,
03:20SPEAKERwhere I could save these
03:22SPEAKERand move them from computer to computer.
03:23SPEAKERBut, you know, the tabs are,
03:26SPEAKERthese days the tabs are machine specific.
03:28SPEAKERIt's like, hey, here's how do I get my NVIDIA driver
03:30SPEAKERpassed through the kernel or whatever on this one
03:34SPEAKERand so on and so forth.
03:36SPEAKERBut I just realized on the Windows PC,
03:39SPEAKEReventually Firefox would start to get kind of chuggy
03:42SPEAKERif I had too many tabs open.
03:44SPEAKERAnd on the Linux machine, I never,
03:46SPEAKERand that's usually my sign to trim the fat a little bit.
03:49SPEAKERAnd on this one, it hasn't been a problem.
03:50SPEAKERSo I've just been,
03:52SPEAKERlike I have tabs that are a month and a half old over here.
03:55SPEAKERAnd anyway, I gotta come up with a new strategy, I guess.
03:59SPEAKER- How many windows are we talking?
04:01SPEAKER- One. - What?
04:03SPEAKER- What, how many windows do you have open?
04:03SPEAKER- Does Firefox have some facility
04:05SPEAKERfor showing tabs you've got open to others?
04:08SPEAKERLike Chrome does the same thing.
04:09SPEAKERI love that the tab bar where the tabs live
04:13SPEAKERis no longer sufficient for the way that people use
04:16SPEAKERbrowser tabs.
04:17SPEAKERAnd now we need a second facility for showing you
04:19SPEAKERthe tabs you have open besides the tabs you have open.
04:22SPEAKER- Look, there are a lot of tab crimes happening,
04:24SPEAKERbut I am not a monster with like 15 browser windows open.
04:28SPEAKERYou can't do that 'cause then it doesn't restore right.
04:30SPEAKERYou close the wrong window and your whole thing
04:32SPEAKERgets out of whack and then you lose the window
04:34SPEAKERthat has the pin tabs,
04:36SPEAKERwhich realistically is the important one.
04:38SPEAKER- I've got, let me see.
04:39SPEAKERI've got one, two, got like two,
04:41SPEAKERI've got two browser windows open right now with,
04:46SPEAKERI've got maybe some total of like eight tabs open
04:49SPEAKERon my machine at this moment.
04:50SPEAKER- So the problem with Firefox,
04:52SPEAKERI mean, actually there's a lot of problems with Firefox.
04:54SPEAKERWe haven't talked about this yet,
04:55SPEAKERbut they're AI-ing the crap out of Firefox
04:57SPEAKERand it's kind of jacking it up.
04:58SPEAKERI gotta find a new browser.
04:59SPEAKER- Yep, good luck with that.
05:02SPEAKER- But the other thing is like they have like,
05:06SPEAKERso they have the view recent browsing
05:09SPEAKERacross windows and devices.
05:10SPEAKERThat's the one that shows you the synced tabs
05:12SPEAKERfrom other devices, which is really useful,
05:14SPEAKERas well as like recently closed tabs
05:15SPEAKERand currently open tabs.
05:18SPEAKERAnd that's how I got the list with like the 277 tabs in it.
05:23SPEAKERThe other thing is they have this side panel that pops out
05:27SPEAKERwhere there's a bunch of AI crap I've turned off,
05:29SPEAKERbut that also has tabs from other devices.
05:32SPEAKERAnd then it also has history and it has bookmarks.
05:35SPEAKERAnd then there's a dropdown on the far right side
05:39SPEAKERof the top of the window that just has the scrollable list
05:42SPEAKERof all the tabs.
05:44SPEAKERBut realistically, when you type anything
05:47SPEAKERin the location bar, it also searches the tabs now.
05:50SPEAKERSo if I have something that's close,
05:51SPEAKERif I need to find a tab, I just type for the thing
05:53SPEAKERI'm looking for, it pops up or I just open a new tab
05:55SPEAKER'cause tabs is free, baby.
05:57SPEAKER- If you were searching and it's opening a tab
05:59SPEAKERthat was open because you searched,
06:02SPEAKERwhat was the point of leaving that tab open
06:04SPEAKERin the first place?
06:06SPEAKER- 'Cause the tab search wouldn't have come up.
06:08SPEAKERIt doesn't search history, it only searches open tabs.
06:10SPEAKER- It doesn't search history.
06:11SPEAKEROh, this is a tab specific search.
06:13SPEAKERThis is not a global.
06:14SPEAKERWell, I thought Firefox was the,
06:16SPEAKERFirefox was the innovator if I remember.
06:18SPEAKERDidn't they call it, this is a terrible,
06:20SPEAKERthis is such a like mid 2000s name,
06:22SPEAKERbut didn't they call it the awesome bar for a while?
06:25SPEAKERI'm pretty sure.
06:25SPEAKER- That seems pretty likely.
06:27SPEAKER- I'm pretty sure it's that name,
06:28SPEAKERbut I'm pretty sure Firefox was the innovator of like,
06:32SPEAKERhey, the address bar is now going to search like history
06:35SPEAKERand bookmarks and like everything you've ever done
06:36SPEAKERon this browser is all going to get rolled up
06:38SPEAKERinto what you type into this bar
06:39SPEAKERand it's just going to find your thing.
06:41SPEAKER- So yeah, I just searched for something that like I,
06:44SPEAKERtab I just closed and like, so I searched for kernel
06:48SPEAKERand I get, yeah, I get some searches I've done in the past
06:52SPEAKERand then I don't get the past histories.
06:55SPEAKERThey must not search through the history anymore.
06:57SPEAKER- That's a bummer.
06:57SPEAKER- 'Cause my guess is that got too onerous.
06:59SPEAKER- I guess, like Chrome still does that.
07:01SPEAKERLike that's kind of the way to use a browser to me.
07:06SPEAKER- I don't know, man.
07:07SPEAKERI like searching through my tabs.
07:09SPEAKERI like having a bunch of tabs.
07:10SPEAKERI'm not going to let you shame me.
07:11SPEAKERI'm going to have 277 tabs, Brad.
07:13SPEAKERYou can't, you're not my dad.
07:14SPEAKERYou can't tell me what to do.
07:15SPEAKER- Look, not everybody has the spare RAM
07:17SPEAKERto abuse their browser in such a way,
07:20SPEAKERbut look, I'm not going to tell you what to do,
07:21SPEAKERbut I've been on record many times.
07:24SPEAKERCold boot, fresh browser every morning is clean living.
07:28SPEAKER- Do you not even open your pins?
07:30SPEAKER- Not what?
07:31SPEAKERI don't even have pins.
07:31SPEAKER- Do you not do pins?
07:32SPEAKER- Oh, not unless I need them.
07:34SPEAKER- Oh my God, I have pins for my mail clients
07:36SPEAKERand the home assistant and the Twitch panel.
07:39SPEAKER- Of course I open Slack and email every morning, but.
07:42SPEAKER- You don't use the client for Slack?
07:44SPEAKER- No.
07:45SPEAKER- Oh boy.
07:46SPEAKER(upbeat music)
08:04SPEAKER(upbeat music)
08:14SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.
08:17SPEAKERI'm Will.
08:18SPEAKER- I am Brad.
08:18SPEAKER- Hello.
08:19SPEAKER- Hi, I said I am Brad that time.
08:21SPEAKERI thought I would.
08:22SPEAKER- Brad, I am.
08:23SPEAKER- That's me.
08:23SPEAKER- We should suit this up one day.
08:25SPEAKER- No contractions on this podcast.
08:26SPEAKERI am here to talk in a more formal manner this week.
08:30SPEAKER- You know, it's funny.
08:31SPEAKERI pointed that out to my daughter
08:33SPEAKERwhen we were watching the Stranger Things finale,
08:35SPEAKERbecause the kids that were like, you know,
08:38SPEAKERthe human experimentation children grew up
08:41SPEAKERin a fixed environment don't use contractions
08:43SPEAKERin the same way that like Mr. Data and I think,
08:47SPEAKERdid Spock not use contractions either?
08:49SPEAKER- Ooh.
08:50SPEAKER- Or did they, did he, was he,
08:51SPEAKERtheoretically he didn't use them very often
08:53SPEAKERbecause they messed up sometimes, I bet.
08:55SPEAKER- I have now seen two of three seasons
08:57SPEAKERof the original series, but I can't,
08:59SPEAKERokay, I'm just kind of trying to run through my,
09:01SPEAKERI bet he did use contractions actually.
09:03SPEAKER- Okay. - If I had to guess.
09:04SPEAKER- But Data famously, not a contraction user.
09:07SPEAKER- Are you telling me you don't have an open tab already
09:09SPEAKERwith the search? - Look.
09:10SPEAKER- Did Spock use contractions?
09:12SPEAKER- I was typing it, but I was trying to go quietly,
09:14SPEAKERso nobody heard. - In 277 tabs,
09:16SPEAKERyou must have, like, if you have enough browser tabs,
09:18SPEAKERthen every possible permutation of every search
09:20SPEAKERthat has ever existed will be in there eventually, right?
09:23SPEAKER- Okay, so I went to the Trek BBS,
09:25SPEAKERthe number one result for this.
09:27SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
09:27SPEAKER- And it's a board, this is an old forum.
09:33SPEAKERUser Tellerites says, "I don't," or should I say,
09:37SPEAKER"I do not think that he did."
09:40SPEAKERDid Spock ever speak with a contraction is the subject.
09:43SPEAKER"I don't," or should I say, "do not think he did,
09:46SPEAKER"but I've always been curious if some slip by.
09:48SPEAKER"If so, which episodes?"
09:49SPEAKERAnd then 1001001, who has a Calculon avatar,
09:56SPEAKERsaid he used several of them in Star Trek
09:57SPEAKERfor the voyage home, so.
10:00SPEAKER- What is a Calculon?
10:01SPEAKER- Calculon is the actor robot from Futurama.
10:05SPEAKER- Okay.
10:06SPEAKER- He's the Shatner, he's Futurama Shatner.
10:11SPEAKERAnd also then a guy with a minion avatar
10:14SPEAKERsays it was his second line in the cage was a contraction.
10:18SPEAKERSo Spock, no data.
10:20SPEAKER- Definitive, no, he's not.
10:21SPEAKER- If we're ranking Star Trek characters,
10:24SPEAKERI'm gonna put data above Mr. Spock.
10:27SPEAKER- Hang on, I know this,
10:29SPEAKERwe're already planning for this coming holiday.
10:31SPEAKERI've got this holiday's ranking right here in front of me,
10:33SPEAKERranking of Spocks.
10:35SPEAKER- Wait, here what?
10:35SPEAKER- Ranking of Spocks.
10:36SPEAKER- Yeah, oh, there's only four, aren't there?
10:40SPEAKERNo, there's three.
10:41SPEAKER- Okay, first we would have to define
10:42SPEAKERwhat constitutes a Spock.
10:43SPEAKER- Is data a Spock?
10:44SPEAKER- Absolutely.
10:45SPEAKER- What, no, he's a robot, he's not a Spock.
10:47SPEAKER- No, 100%, he's a Spock.
10:49SPEAKERWe hashed this whole thing out on the watch cast already.
10:52SPEAKEREvery Star Trek has a Spock.
10:54SPEAKERData is the Spock of Next Generation,
10:56SPEAKEROdo is the Spock of DS Mine.
10:58SPEAKER- Is Ensign Ro a Spock?
11:00SPEAKER- No, no, you only have one Spock.
11:03SPEAKER- I mean, I don't know.
11:04SPEAKERI think some people would disagree with that.
11:08SPEAKERSometimes you have two Spocks.
11:09SPEAKERMirror Universe Spock is also a Spock.
11:10SPEAKEROr is he not a Spock?
11:12SPEAKER- Okay, I'm trying to think this through here.
11:14SPEAKERThere's some, all data's are Spocks,
11:16SPEAKERbut not all Spocks are, let's move on.
11:19SPEAKER- With great Spock comes great data responsibility.
11:22SPEAKERI don't know that's bad. - Responsibility.
11:24SPEAKER- Yeah, we're doing a potpourri this week.
11:28SPEAKERWe had some weird stuff, some stuff's been going on,
11:30SPEAKERwe got stuff to talk about.
11:32SPEAKERI think we should start with Moonlight on the Xbox,
11:36SPEAKER'cause it's unprecedented, it's the last thing on the list,
11:41SPEAKERbut I think we should start there, 'cause it's fun.
11:42SPEAKER- Yes, I'm gonna let you talk while I,
11:45SPEAKERI failed to do my due diligence,
11:46SPEAKERbut somebody on the Discord in particular
11:48SPEAKERbrought this to our attention,
11:50SPEAKERand I have got to credit that person,
11:51SPEAKERbecause that was a-- - Are you talking about Hobbes?
11:52SPEAKER- Was it Hobbes?
11:54SPEAKER- Hobbes gave me the way that I'm now changing.
11:57SPEAKERSo we talked about a couple weeks ago Apollo,
11:59SPEAKERwhich is a Sunshine fork that,
12:02SPEAKERokay, let's take a step back.
12:03SPEAKERSunshine and Moonlight are the server and client respectively
12:07SPEAKERthat replicate the old Nvidia game stream functionality
12:10SPEAKERfrom the GeForce experience,
12:12SPEAKERwhich was set up originally to let you stream games
12:15SPEAKERfrom your GeForce equipped PC to an Nvidia Shield.
12:19SPEAKERNow, somewhat of a niche category,
12:22SPEAKERbut the protocol was really good,
12:24SPEAKERand people made, when they pulled it
12:27SPEAKERfrom the GeForce experience app, folks forked,
12:31SPEAKERbasically created an open source server called Sunshine
12:34SPEAKERand an open source client called Moonlight
12:37SPEAKERthat would work on kind of everything,
12:39SPEAKERlike Windows, Mac, Apple TV, iOS, Linux, Xbox,
12:49SPEAKERa bunch of TVs, like smart TVs
12:51SPEAKERyou can install your own apps on, all sorts of stuff.
12:53SPEAKERAnd the upshot is you have a really clean,
12:56SPEAKERpretty high quality way to transcode the video
13:00SPEAKERwith very low latency on your desktop PC
13:03SPEAKERand then stream it to any other screen in your house.
13:05SPEAKER- Yes, particularly if you run a hard line
13:07SPEAKERall the way down the hall to your living room,
13:08SPEAKERAdam Patrick Murray.
13:10SPEAKER- Yeah, that is one important,
13:12SPEAKERI was thinking about, I call that the Adam principle.
13:15SPEAKER- So then I've been sitting on that call out
13:17SPEAKERfor like a month now.
13:20SPEAKER- Oh, you can also do it, like, just to be clear,
13:22SPEAKERit also works really well over wifi.
13:23SPEAKERI use it on wifi in the stream deck all the time.
13:25SPEAKER- Yeah, no, I believe it, I mean, assuming,
13:27SPEAKERwell, you know, assuming your wifi is clean enough
13:29SPEAKERand you're on--
13:30SPEAKER- Yeah, assuming you're on like, let's say five or six,
13:32SPEAKERfive, six or newer wifi standards would be my guess.
13:36SPEAKERAnyway, okay, so folks have been talking about
13:38SPEAKERthis Moonlight client for Xbox,
13:40SPEAKER'cause I've talked about using the Steam Deck one
13:43SPEAKERin the past and using it docked with the TV,
13:45SPEAKERbut it's a little fiddly, it's fine,
13:48SPEAKERbut the Steam Deck is clearly built for streaming
13:51SPEAKER1280 by 800 or playing stuff at 1280 by 800 on that device.
13:56SPEAKERAnd it's a little hinky when you plug it into an HDMI port.
13:59SPEAKER- Yeah, and I should mention, I think it was probably
14:02SPEAKERon this very podcast that I talked recently
14:03SPEAKERabout wanting to get the new Apple TV,
14:05SPEAKERwhich is still not out yet,
14:08SPEAKER'cause I was thinking about using that as a Moonlight,
14:11SPEAKERor even Steam, I thought about also trying the official
14:13SPEAKERlike built-in Steam client, or I guess they still call it
14:16SPEAKERSteam Link, is what the app is called.
14:19SPEAKERBut either way, I thought about using an Apple TV
14:20SPEAKERas a streaming device, and then I looked,
14:23SPEAKERI could not find the user, it might've been somebody
14:24SPEAKERon the next Lander Discord, actually,
14:25SPEAKERthat mentioned it to me first, I forget,
14:27SPEAKERbut whoever it was, thank you, that mentioned
14:29SPEAKERthere is a Moonlight client on the Xbox.
14:32SPEAKER- On the App Store, yeah.
14:34SPEAKERIt's worth mentioning the Apple TV one
14:35SPEAKERhas input latency problems.
14:39SPEAKERI tried it again, the Apple TV I have is old enough
14:42SPEAKERthat it wasn't great, but it's possible.
14:44SPEAKERI'm, I think, one generation back from the current one
14:47SPEAKERthat you can buy today, which will be two generations back
14:50SPEAKERfrom the new one.
14:51SPEAKER- Yeah, some people on our Discord, I think,
14:52SPEAKERtried it on the newest one and said they didn't mind it,
14:54SPEAKERor they thought it felt fine.
14:55SPEAKERI mean, latency is something that's always gonna be
14:57SPEAKERsubjective based on personal sensitivity.
15:01SPEAKERSome people are gonna notice it more than others.
15:03SPEAKERBut the bigger thing with the Apple TV is
15:04SPEAKERit's not a gaming box, you know?
15:06SPEAKERLike the current models now, and I assume this next model
15:10SPEAKERprobably as well, are capped at 60 hertz, for example,
15:13SPEAKERso you can't do higher frame rates.
15:15SPEAKERYou know, it probably does support 4K and HDR just fine,
15:18SPEAKERI would assume, but it's not, it's a streaming box
15:21SPEAKERfor video, it's not a gaming device first.
15:25SPEAKERBut you know, it is a gaming device first.
15:27SPEAKER- Yeah, the Xbox.
15:28SPEAKER- Or the Xbox Series X and S, and sure enough,
15:31SPEAKERthere's a UWP Moonlight app on there.
15:34SPEAKERI don't know if UWP is even still in Vogue or not.
15:38SPEAKER- Yeah, it's one of the ways you can ship games
15:41SPEAKERon the Windows Store as well.
15:42SPEAKER- Yeah, or yeah, it's one of those cross-platform
15:45SPEAKERMicrosoft frameworks that lets you kind of make one app
15:47SPEAKERthat works on multiple devices.
15:49SPEAKER- Yeah, it used to be the only way to ship a game
15:52SPEAKERon the, a game, past game on Windows,
15:56SPEAKERwas it had to be a UWP app for a long time.
15:58SPEAKERI think they've changed that since then.
16:00SPEAKERBut the upshot is we've both been,
16:03SPEAKERI think we've both used it.
16:04SPEAKERHave you used it at this point or no?
16:05SPEAKER- I have set it up.
16:07SPEAKERThe streaming is working fine.
16:08SPEAKERI mean, maybe I'll let you go first
16:10SPEAKER'cause you've had more luck with it.
16:11SPEAKERI also just haven't had a ton of time to fiddle
16:13SPEAKERwith the nuances of the config.
16:17SPEAKERIt's streaming to my TV phone, to the Xbox phone,
16:20SPEAKERbut it's still opening things on my PC, on my desktop.
16:24SPEAKER- Oh, when you launched the-
16:25SPEAKER- Like it's still, like when I launched Steam,
16:28SPEAKERlike the Steam window is still opening on my PC monitor,
16:30SPEAKERnot on, like I basically get a blank desktop
16:32SPEAKERstreaming to my Xbox but none of the Windows
16:36SPEAKERare actually appearing on it.
16:37SPEAKERThey're all, it looks like there are multiple ways
16:40SPEAKERto deal with that.
16:41SPEAKERYou have to like fiddle with the Windows sort of,
16:45SPEAKERit's hard to say preferences,
16:45SPEAKERbut I don't mean preferences in the sense of a dialogue
16:48SPEAKERwhere you are tweaking settings.
16:49SPEAKERI mean like Windows's preference for which monitor
16:53SPEAKERto output to, like Windows's opinion
16:55SPEAKERof which one it thinks is the primary display.
16:57SPEAKER- But the thing, so on Windows,
16:59SPEAKERI've always, it's always just streamed by primary monitor,
17:01SPEAKERwhich hasn't been a problem.
17:02SPEAKER- I think that might be a setting.
17:04SPEAKERI'm gonna be real.
17:06SPEAKERI don't love the Sunshine and Apollo
17:10SPEAKER'cause Apollo is a fork.
17:11SPEAKERSo it's basically the same thing in this regard.
17:12SPEAKERI don't love the web-based settings for Sunshine.
17:16SPEAKERLike I find them just maybe a little bit hard to parse.
17:21SPEAKERThey're not overly explanatory, I think.
17:22SPEAKERMaybe a little bit more like flavor or help text would help.
17:26SPEAKER- Well, and the weird thing is they split settings
17:29SPEAKERinto two different sections.
17:31SPEAKERThere's like the server settings
17:32SPEAKERand then there's also per application settings.
17:35SPEAKERSo like when you connect to a Moonlight, sorry,
17:37SPEAKERwhen you connect with Sunshine server
17:39SPEAKERwith your Moonlight client, it's like,
17:40SPEAKERhey, which of these things do you wanna launch?
17:42SPEAKERDo you wanna launch the desktop?
17:43SPEAKERDo you wanna launch Steam big picture?
17:44SPEAKERDo you wanna go straight into a specific game?
17:47SPEAKERAnd the right answer is different for kind of each,
17:51SPEAKERlike there's no universal right answer, unfortunately.
17:54SPEAKER- Yeah, it seems like quite a bit of fiddling
17:55SPEAKERyou might need to do per both client and server
17:58SPEAKERto get everything working right.
17:59SPEAKERAnyway, like I was able to pull up the connection stats
18:01SPEAKERon the Xbox and see that it was streaming 4K 120 HDR
18:05SPEAKERjust fine.
18:06SPEAKER- Oh, that's nice.
18:07SPEAKER- It's just that I just need to put the work in to try to,
18:10SPEAKERand it may be something like disabling my local monitors
18:14SPEAKERon the PC, whatever I'm streaming,
18:16SPEAKER'cause I think it can do that too.
18:17SPEAKERI think Apollo can handle that.
18:19SPEAKER- So Apollo does that on Windows seamlessly.
18:21SPEAKERThat's what I was gonna say is I found Apollo
18:22SPEAKERto be basically zero fiddling and just installed it
18:25SPEAKERand it was running and it was right.
18:27SPEAKERI might've had to specify the primary monitor,
18:29SPEAKERbut I think it just pulled the primary
18:30SPEAKERand I have Steam big picture set
18:33SPEAKERto launch on the primary monitor.
18:34SPEAKERSo when it launches Steam big picture
18:37SPEAKERand it starts streaming that to the TV, it just worked.
18:40SPEAKERThere was no change.
18:41SPEAKER- Okay, but like to be clear,
18:42SPEAKERthe reason I even need to worry about this
18:45SPEAKERis because my monitors are lower res than my TV.
18:48SPEAKERLike I have 1440p monitors and a 4K TV,
18:51SPEAKERso I don't want it streaming 1440p to the TV.
18:54SPEAKER- Do you have a dongle, an HDMI dongle?
18:56SPEAKER- No, but so that's one of the things Apollo does
18:58SPEAKERis it just creates a dummy virtual monitor.
19:02SPEAKERLike that is the big thing.
19:03SPEAKERSorry, I was looking for that Discord stuff
19:06SPEAKERwhile you were giving the top line here.
19:08SPEAKERI'm not sure if you mentioned the Apollo difference.
19:11SPEAKER- Yeah, the Apollo difference is that it switches
19:12SPEAKERthe resolution to your output resolution
19:14SPEAKERand turns off your other monitors if you tell it to.
19:16SPEAKER- Yeah, so I'm not telling it to turn off the monitors,
19:19SPEAKERbut yes, it detects the resolution and frame rate
19:21SPEAKERand color depth and everything of the target client
19:23SPEAKERthat is requesting to connect.
19:25SPEAKERAnd it just creates a virtual desktop
19:27SPEAKERat those settings and streams that.
19:28SPEAKERSo apparently you can get Sunshine to do that, but it's work.
19:33SPEAKER- So Sunshine, so, okay.
19:34SPEAKERSo the TLDR on this is that if you wanna do this
19:37SPEAKERand you're curious about it,
19:40SPEAKERI would recommend Apollo on the Windows side.
19:43SPEAKERAnd if you're running Linux,
19:43SPEAKERthen Sunshine is probably your option.
19:45SPEAKERApollo was kind of hinky on the Linux side.
19:47SPEAKER- Yeah, I think Apollo from the sound things
19:49SPEAKERis probably using some pretty like
19:51SPEAKERWindows centric stuff under the hood.
19:53SPEAKER- It is, the virtual monitor thing doesn't work on Linux
19:56SPEAKERfor Linux related reasons, but also Linux provides,
20:00SPEAKERmost Linux distros and desktop environments
20:03SPEAKERand window managers provide command line tools
20:06SPEAKERthat you can easily use to turn on and off monitors at will,
20:09SPEAKERor displays at will.
20:10SPEAKERSo, but you will, for Sunshine to do a virtual monitor,
20:14SPEAKERyou will either need an HDMI dongle or like in my case,
20:17SPEAKERI just have the HDMI goes out to a capture card
20:20SPEAKERon my streaming PC and I set that machine
20:24SPEAKERto always provide USB power to even when it's turned off
20:28SPEAKERand that capture card stays hot and that shows up
20:31SPEAKERas an option so I can turn it on and off at will.
20:33SPEAKER- Sure, are there not other ways
20:35SPEAKERto define virtual desktops?
20:36SPEAKERLike I know the Nvidia drivers on Windows,
20:38SPEAKERyou can just create a virtual or sorry,
20:41SPEAKERvirtual is not the right term, but kind of a,
20:44SPEAKERyou can create resolutions
20:45SPEAKERthat exceed your physical desktop resolution.
20:47SPEAKERLike I've done that before.
20:48SPEAKERYou can, even on like a 1080p monitor,
20:50SPEAKERyou can define a 4K resolution, for example,
20:53SPEAKERand then just have your graphics card
20:55SPEAKERscale that down to 1080, so.
20:57SPEAKER- Yeah, on Linux, you can if you're using X11
21:00SPEAKERand if you're using Wayland, you can't,
21:02SPEAKERis the current state of the art, as I understand it.
21:06SPEAKERAnyway, the upshot is on Linux,
21:09SPEAKERon Windows, Apollo handles a lot of this stuff for you.
21:12SPEAKERIt's really nice.
21:13SPEAKERI found, I was able to do HDR streaming
21:15SPEAKERto the Xbox Series S in the living room.
21:18SPEAKERI don't have an HDR TV in there, so that looked really bad,
21:21SPEAKERbut when I turned it off and put it on SDR, it was fine.
21:23SPEAKER- Here's a question.
21:24SPEAKER- Yes, hi.
21:25SPEAKER- Were you able to tell Apollo,
21:27SPEAKERor when you were using Sunshine, not Apollo, right?
21:29SPEAKEREither way.
21:30SPEAKER- I was using Apollo on Windows.
21:31SPEAKERI've used Sunshine on Linux.
21:32SPEAKERI'm using both right now,
21:33SPEAKERdepending on which machine I'm booted into.
21:35SPEAKER- Are you able to not have HDR enabled on your PC,
21:38SPEAKERbut then have it turn HDR on
21:39SPEAKERjust when it's streaming to your Moonlight client?
21:43SPEAKER'Cause that would be ideal for me,
21:44SPEAKER'cause the monitors I have in the office here
21:46SPEAKERare terrible for HDR.
21:48SPEAKERSo I don't wanna use HDR on my desktop,
21:50SPEAKERbut it would be nice for that to be able to flip HDR on
21:53SPEAKERautomatically when it starts streaming to my TV,
21:55SPEAKERwhich is a good HDR display.
21:57SPEAKER- So I think with Apollo and the virtual monitor thing,
21:59SPEAKERyou can do that.
22:00SPEAKERWith Sunshine, I've never successfully gotten that to work.
22:04SPEAKERIf I wanna stream HDR to like my Steam Deck or something,
22:07SPEAKERwhich has an HDR display,
22:08SPEAKERI have to turn HDR on on Windows first
22:14SPEAKERand then start Sunshine, and then it works.
22:16SPEAKER- Okay.
22:18SPEAKER- But anyway, I was gonna say,
22:19SPEAKERwe talked about Hobbs in one of the chats about this
22:25SPEAKERon the Discord, had pointed me
22:28SPEAKERto replicate that Apollo functionality in Sunshine on Linux,
22:33SPEAKERhad pointed me to the actions
22:36SPEAKERthat are tied to an application.
22:38SPEAKERSo in Sunshine, this is the Applications tab,
22:41SPEAKERand it lists the things that you see
22:42SPEAKERwhen you connect to the server, right?
22:44SPEAKERSo it's like desktop, low res desktop, and big picture.
22:47SPEAKERAnd in that setting, there are commands and undo commands
22:52SPEAKERthat you can set to run before the application launches
22:56SPEAKERand after the application is done,
22:57SPEAKERafter you disconnect.
22:59SPEAKERAnd so I just put nearly message output commands in there
23:02SPEAKERthat turn off my DisplayPort monitors
23:04SPEAKERand turn on my HDMI monitor
23:06SPEAKERand set the HDMI resolution to the resolution
23:10SPEAKERthat I'm streaming at most regularly.
23:13SPEAKERAnd it's worked fabulously.
23:15SPEAKERIt means that I hit it,
23:17SPEAKERI see the desktop for like a flash of a second,
23:19SPEAKERand then I get the Steam big picture launch
23:22SPEAKERand everything's groovy.
23:23SPEAKERSo highly recommend.
23:25SPEAKER- Yeah, I've gotta put more work into this.
23:27SPEAKERMaybe I'll update on this month's patron episode, I think.
23:30SPEAKERHopefully by then, I will have time to wrangle.
23:33SPEAKERAgain, like I said, the settings I find to be a bit overwrought
23:37SPEAKERor just kind of a mess to dig through
23:40SPEAKERfor the Sunshine server and also dealing with the windows,
23:43SPEAKERlike which monitor to output settings
23:46SPEAKERare just kind of a pain and I just have not spent the time.
23:49SPEAKER- So the thing I will say is that generally speaking,
23:51SPEAKERespecially if you have an NVIDIA card,
23:54SPEAKERjust saying, "Hey, use the NVENC encoder."
23:56SPEAKERAnd setting the display and then letting it figure out
24:01SPEAKERthe bit rate and the targets,
24:02SPEAKERespecially if you're on ethernet, is fine.
24:05SPEAKERYou can give it a ridiculous bit rate,
24:07SPEAKERlike 50 megabits on gigabit and it'll just,
24:10SPEAKERit'll work itself out. - 50 megabits?
24:13SPEAKER- I mean-- - Why not 100?
24:15SPEAKER- I'm doing 1080p most of the time.
24:17SPEAKERSo, and I also connect with Wi-Fi sometimes,
24:19SPEAKERso I keep it reasonable. - Okay, that's fair.
24:21SPEAKERThat's fair, that's fair.
24:22SPEAKER- But also you can set it to just let the client
24:24SPEAKERspecify the bit rate that it wants,
24:27SPEAKERwhich is probably the better solution
24:29SPEAKERfor my particular use case
24:30SPEAKERwhere I'm sometimes streaming at 1080p,
24:32SPEAKERsometimes streaming at 800p
24:34SPEAKERand sometimes streaming at 4K to a laptop.
24:36SPEAKER- I wonder if there are any differences
24:38SPEAKERbetween VBR and CBR situations there,
24:40SPEAKERconstant bit rate versus variable bit rate.
24:43SPEAKERIs there overhead as it's trying to figure out,
24:45SPEAKERas it's adapting its bit rate dynamically
24:47SPEAKERto whatever the demands of the stream are?
24:49SPEAKEROr is it more efficient to just set
24:52SPEAKERif you've got the bandwidth over the network
24:54SPEAKERand a good encoder,
24:55SPEAKERis it more efficient to just set a high ceiling CBR
24:58SPEAKERand just let it go, I wonder?
25:00SPEAKER- So I, the one thing I tweaked
25:03SPEAKERwas I turned off the two pass mode
25:04SPEAKERthat does a quarter resolution scan pass
25:08SPEAKERjust to reduce a little bit of latency.
25:11SPEAKER- Yeah, so like I have both latency
25:13SPEAKERand also just like maybe some lag
25:14SPEAKERin adapting to changes in the content of the video.
25:16SPEAKERYou know, like you might get some brief macro blocking
25:18SPEAKERbefore it catches up and ups the bit rate or something.
25:21SPEAKERLike if you've got the encoder and bandwidth,
25:23SPEAKERI wonder if it's better to just set a high number
25:27SPEAKERand let it go.
25:28SPEAKER- The thing that I've found,
25:29SPEAKERhaving used this quite a bit over the last couple of years
25:33SPEAKERis that I typically,
25:36SPEAKERI find I only play games that I'm playing with them
25:38SPEAKERwith a game pad.
25:40SPEAKERI don't play a ton of stuff like,
25:43SPEAKERI don't play competitive games ever in the living room.
25:45SPEAKER- It would be the same for,
25:46SPEAKERwell, I mean, I might play a somewhat competitive game
25:49SPEAKERon a controller maybe,
25:50SPEAKERbut it would definitely be a lot of like lean back
25:52SPEAKERon the couch with a controller type stuff, so.
25:54SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a lot of like RPGs and stuff like that.
25:57SPEAKERI played, I did like the closest thing to a timing game
26:00SPEAKERI played was probably Ghost of Tsushima, which was fine.
26:05SPEAKERLike I was able to do parries and blocks
26:07SPEAKERand all that stuff without any problem.
26:09SPEAKERAnd I don't know that I would play like Sekiro
26:12SPEAKERor something like that on streamed.
26:14SPEAKER- Yeah.
26:15SPEAKER- But maybe, I don't know.
26:16SPEAKERI'm bad at Sekiro anyway, so who knows.
26:17SPEAKER- I think the first thing I might play
26:19SPEAKERwhen I get this working is routine,
26:21SPEAKERthat horror, sci-fi horror game
26:22SPEAKERthat came out last month.
26:23SPEAKERI haven't seen a lot of people talking about it
26:24SPEAKERthat much though, but.
26:26SPEAKER- It looks good.
26:27SPEAKERI played Dispatch all the way through the other day.
26:29SPEAKERWe were sitting in the living room
26:31SPEAKERand making decisions together and the controller,
26:35SPEAKERI think this is that game specific thing.
26:37SPEAKERIt seems like it's hard to do the dispatch portion of that
26:39SPEAKERwith the controller and score well.
26:42SPEAKERBut that might, maybe I just suck at dispatching.
26:44SPEAKERI don't know.
26:45SPEAKER- Yeah, I am gonna finalize the stuff soon though,
26:47SPEAKERbecause it's not that I don't wanna play PC games.
26:49SPEAKERI just don't want to sit at the PC to play them.
26:52SPEAKER- That's it.
26:53SPEAKER- When I'm already spending 10 hours a day
26:54SPEAKERin front of this computer anyway, or more.
26:57SPEAKER- It's nice to be able to play something
26:59SPEAKERthat's like a big giant beefy game with my nice computer,
27:03SPEAKERbut sit in the living room and like have the big TV
27:06SPEAKERand the speakers and the whole deal.
27:08SPEAKER- It's time.
27:09SPEAKERNow I will say I've talked to some people
27:11SPEAKERon both Discord's Nextlander and TechPod about this.
27:14SPEAKERAnd it seems like that Xbox Moonlight client
27:17SPEAKERis known to be a bit crashy.
27:19SPEAKERI have not had any crashes with it.
27:21SPEAKER- Okay, I've had a crash once just in the time
27:23SPEAKERI was preparing and fiddling with settings a little bit.
27:26SPEAKERSo that is maybe something to be aware of.
27:27SPEAKERThe other thing, which I think I might've mentioned
27:29SPEAKERon the patron episode,
27:31SPEAKERwhen we briefly talked about this last month,
27:34SPEAKERis the divergence between Apollo and Sunshine.
27:39SPEAKERAccording to the author of Apollo,
27:40SPEAKERis going to widen at some point.
27:43SPEAKER- Yeah, but he has to build clients for the other stuff
27:44SPEAKERbefore he does that.
27:46SPEAKER- Well, yeah, but I don't, the odds of the odds.
27:48SPEAKERSo basically he forks Apollo from Sunshine.
27:52SPEAKERIf you wanna see some real good classic open source drama,
27:56SPEAKERgo to the Apollo repo and scroll to the bottom
27:58SPEAKERand read the three paragraphs where he talks about
28:02SPEAKERtrying to participate in the Sunshine development process
28:04SPEAKERand being rebuffed and then banned from their Discord.
28:07SPEAKERAnd he seems very upset about it.
28:09SPEAKER- Wow.
28:09SPEAKER- Which is what led to the forking of Apollo.
28:12SPEAKERAnyway, the point being, he said explicitly,
28:16SPEAKER"Eventually I will break compatibility
28:18SPEAKERwith existing Moonlight clients in favor of clients
28:20SPEAKERthat are specifically made for Apollo."
28:23SPEAKERNot maliciously, it sounds like more
28:24SPEAKERbecause he's gonna work on new features
28:27SPEAKERthat will require those clients.
28:29SPEAKERBut that's worth keeping in mind
28:31SPEAKERbefore you get super invested in an Apollo workflow,
28:34SPEAKERparticularly in the case of the Xbox
28:36SPEAKERwhere I feel like the odds of an Artemis
28:40SPEAKERis the name of his Moonlight fork
28:42SPEAKERand the odds of an Artemis client getting made for the Xbox
28:44SPEAKERconsidering the general state of the Xbox platform
28:48SPEAKERI feel are quite low.
28:50SPEAKER- Look, I've turned my Xbox on more in the last two weeks
28:52SPEAKERthan I have in the two previous years.
28:53SPEAKER- Fair.
28:54SPEAKER- Yeah, you've been turning your Xbox on every day
28:56SPEAKERto play games on somebody else's platform.
28:58SPEAKER- Look.
28:59SPEAKER- On the other hand,
29:00SPEAKERthat's part of their whole business model forthcoming.
29:01SPEAKER- Yeah, everything's in Xbox, Brad.
29:02SPEAKER- That's where things are going for them,
29:04SPEAKERso maybe that's fine.
29:06SPEAKER- I will say, okay, first off,
29:09SPEAKERI'm gonna say getting banned from something feels bad
29:12SPEAKERall the time.
29:13SPEAKERI got banned from Reddit recently
29:15SPEAKERfor things that I didn't do.
29:18SPEAKERIf anybody at Reddit,
29:19SPEAKERif anybody's listening here works at Reddit
29:20SPEAKERand wants to help me get my 10-year-old account unbanned,
29:24SPEAKERthat would be dope.
29:25SPEAKERBut at some point they let,
29:27SPEAKERReddit let a bazillion people sign up for accounts
29:29SPEAKERusing my email address.
29:31SPEAKEREven though they were all unconfirmed,
29:32SPEAKERI got hit for spam.
29:34SPEAKER- Sure.
29:35SPEAKER- So anyway.
29:36SPEAKER- I've got the disclaimer in front of me right here.
29:37SPEAKERI got kicked from Moonlight and Sunshine's Discord server
29:40SPEAKERand banned from Sunshine's GitHub repo
29:42SPEAKERliterally for helping people out is how this starts.
29:45SPEAKER- Oh boy.
29:46SPEAKER- So you can kind of guess where that's probably going.
29:48SPEAKER- I feel this, brother.
29:49SPEAKER- This is what I got for finding a bug,
29:51SPEAKERopened an issue, getting no response,
29:53SPEAKERtroubleshoot myself, fixed the issue myself,
29:55SPEAKERshared it by PR to the main repo,
29:56SPEAKERhoping my efforts can help someone else
29:58SPEAKERduring the maintenance, he goes on, but-
30:01SPEAKER- You call somebody a name or something?
30:02SPEAKER- No, no, I have no idea, zero idea.
30:04SPEAKER- Okay, I hope scene drama.
30:05SPEAKER- Yes.
30:07SPEAKER- We love scene drama here.
30:08SPEAKER- Yes, indeed.
30:09SPEAKERAs I like to say, often open source is an exercise
30:12SPEAKERin self-governance.
30:14SPEAKER- That's true.
30:15SPEAKER- And like sometimes it's a little messy.
30:18SPEAKER- I mean, look, self-governance is messy.
30:19SPEAKERWe've all learned that.
30:21SPEAKER- Yes, that's for sure.
30:23SPEAKER- So anyway, yeah, that's Moonlight and Sunshine and Apollo.
30:28SPEAKERLike two thumbs up to the whole stack.
30:30SPEAKERIt's real good.
30:31SPEAKER- Yeah, that's cool.
30:32SPEAKERAlso, like I said, possibly more to come
30:35SPEAKERas I get mine working on the Patreon episode.
30:37SPEAKER- I just want to say also as an anecdote,
30:39SPEAKERlast year, maybe the year before now,
30:41SPEAKERI was doing some testing for this at PC World
30:45SPEAKERand I had left my computer running that day apparently.
30:48SPEAKERAnd when I connected, I connected to my,
30:51SPEAKERI connected with Moonlight at the PC World office
30:54SPEAKERto my house 10, 15 miles away.
30:57SPEAKERAnd I didn't, I thought I was connecting,
30:58SPEAKERI wasn't paying attention to which one I connected to
31:01SPEAKER'cause I had both settings on my Steam Deck.
31:03SPEAKERAnd I thought I was connecting
31:05SPEAKERto the one in the other side of the office.
31:07SPEAKERAnd I was connecting to the one across
31:09SPEAKERthe whole wide internet.
31:11SPEAKERAnd I couldn't, from a performance standpoint,
31:14SPEAKERcouldn't tell the difference.
31:15SPEAKER- If that's not a proof of concept, what is?
31:17SPEAKER- Yeah, it's pretty good.
31:19SPEAKERYou have to open,
31:19SPEAKERI think I had the reverse proxy set up for that,
31:22SPEAKERbut anyway.
31:23SPEAKER- All right.
31:25SPEAKERSelf-governance is messy.
31:26SPEAKER- Yeah.
31:27SPEAKER- You know what else is messy?
31:28SPEAKER- Electricity.
31:29SPEAKER- Electricity.
31:30SPEAKER- Yeah.
31:31SPEAKER- I've got a whole stack of UPS weirdness
31:33SPEAKERthat I want to step through here
31:34SPEAKERjust to get your opinion on things.
31:36SPEAKER- Yeah.
31:37SPEAKER- 'Cause I'm sort of at a loss, like maybe.
31:39SPEAKER- More of a FedEx guy personally.
31:41SPEAKER- Right.
31:42SPEAKEROkay.
31:42SPEAKERI think you, we talked about this also the last,
31:45SPEAKERso as of last month's patron episode,
31:47SPEAKERI think I had ordered new batteries for my UPS
31:49SPEAKERand they had not arrived.
31:50SPEAKER- You were excited about them.
31:51SPEAKERYou seemed cautiously optimistic, let's say.
31:54SPEAKER- Some events have transpired since then,
31:56SPEAKERbut I think you mentioned on that episode,
31:57SPEAKERyou said you used to be a UPS guy
31:59SPEAKERand have now stopped.
32:01SPEAKERIs that correct?
32:02SPEAKER- Well, so when I bought this house,
32:03SPEAKERI paid an electrician to come in and run new wires
32:06SPEAKERto like the three most important spots for me.
32:08SPEAKER- Was that a, how old is the house?
32:11SPEAKER- 1956.
32:12SPEAKER- Oh, okay.
32:13SPEAKERSo was it original wiring?
32:14SPEAKERDo you have any way of telling?
32:16SPEAKER- Yeah, it's original wiring.
32:17SPEAKERIt's real scary.
32:18SPEAKERIt's not good.
32:18SPEAKERIt's knobs and tubes and cotton insulators.
32:22SPEAKERLike we're, if my employment situation
32:27SPEAKERwas slightly more stable,
32:28SPEAKERwe would have been firmly in the let's rip all the walls out
32:30SPEAKERand redo everything era of this house.
32:33SPEAKERYeah, but anyway.
32:34SPEAKER- Got it.
32:35SPEAKER- So yeah, I had them run 20 amp circuits to my PC
32:41SPEAKERto the TV area and to the garage where the servers
32:45SPEAKERand like network stuff all hooks up.
32:48SPEAKER- Okay.
32:49SPEAKERBut then the UPS situation.
32:51SPEAKER- I didn't need the UPS after that.
32:52SPEAKER'Cause I was using the UPS to account for jakey,
32:55SPEAKERapartment wiring.
32:56SPEAKER- Just for that.
32:57SPEAKERAnd nothing else.
32:58SPEAKERYou don't have any concerns about like,
33:00SPEAKERlike in a power outage,
33:01SPEAKERshutting things down gracefully and stuff like that.
33:03SPEAKER- I have concerns, but I figured it'll work itself out.
33:06SPEAKER- Probably, you know, it'll work out.
33:09SPEAKERThere are in a number of different possible outcomes.
33:13SPEAKER- So, so here's the thing.
33:14SPEAKERThe, at the time I made this decision in 2007,
33:19SPEAKERUPS replacement batteries were still really expensive.
33:22SPEAKERThere wasn't a lot of lithium ion or lipo UPS stuff.
33:27SPEAKERIt was all lead acid batteries
33:28SPEAKERand they were charging exorbitant prices for them
33:31SPEAKERbecause they could.
33:32SPEAKER- Yeah.
33:33SPEAKERAnd to be clear, it is still mostly lead acid batteries.
33:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
33:36SPEAKER- Like what, like what goes in your car.
33:37SPEAKERAlthough it seems like,
33:38SPEAKERI think the guy that we talked about,
33:39SPEAKERthis is really a lot of followups
33:41SPEAKERfrom last month's patron episode.
33:42SPEAKERI think we talked about the lifepo four.
33:45SPEAKERIt's like lithium iron, potassium something.
33:48SPEAKERI don't know what the four is.
33:49SPEAKER- Polonium.
33:50SPEAKERNo, it's not polonium.
33:52SPEAKER- Probably not.
33:53SPEAKER- It's phosphorus.
33:54SPEAKER- Would you, would you put a nuclear UPS in your house?
33:57SPEAKER- I mean, look,
33:58SPEAKERI read a lot of Tom Swift books when I was a kid.
34:00SPEAKERI would like the power of the nuclear revolution
34:03SPEAKERwas promised and has never been fulfilled.
34:05SPEAKER- Would you have a personal nuclear reactor?
34:09SPEAKER- Depends on where I live.
34:10SPEAKER- If such technology existed.
34:12SPEAKER- Like if I could,
34:13SPEAKERif I could spend a hundred grand on a thorium reactor
34:15SPEAKERfor my house and never pay for electricity again,
34:17SPEAKERyes, I would do that in a heartbeat.
34:19SPEAKERFuck PG&E, fuck them to death,
34:21SPEAKERfire them into the fucking sun.
34:23SPEAKER- Yes, I think after last month's events,
34:24SPEAKERI think we can agree on that.
34:26SPEAKER- No, it's not, no,
34:27SPEAKERit's 2020 when they burned down a bunch of cities
34:29SPEAKERthat did it for me.
34:29SPEAKER- Yep, also that.
34:31SPEAKER- So, okay.
34:32SPEAKERSo yeah, I stopped.
34:33SPEAKERI basically bought a round of UPSs when I first moved here.
34:36SPEAKERAnd then seven years later when the batteries were shot
34:39SPEAKERand they were like,
34:39SPEAKERit's gonna be 200 bucks per to update the batteries.
34:42SPEAKERAnd also probably the UPSs I had weren't beefy enough
34:46SPEAKER'cause the computers were drawing a lot more power.
34:49SPEAKERI was like, I'm not gonna do this anymore.
34:51SPEAKERI just paid once to have the wires run.
34:54SPEAKER- Yeah, that makes sense.
34:55SPEAKER- Yeah.
34:56SPEAKER- All right, shall we just step through
34:57SPEAKERmy UPS travails here? - Yeah, what's up, Brad?
35:00SPEAKER- Okay, so I've got a cyber power.
35:02SPEAKERIt is a, it's a 1500 VA.
35:04SPEAKERI don't, I've never understood quite
35:05SPEAKERwhat the VA- - Volt amps.
35:06SPEAKER- Volt amps, is that what that is?
35:08SPEAKERI'm just bad at electricity.
35:09SPEAKERI just, I've had it explained to me.
35:12SPEAKERI generally know that like voltage is the size of the pipe.
35:15SPEAKERWattage is the water running through the pipe.
35:17SPEAKERI always go to the water analogy
35:19SPEAKERand I just can't keep it straight.
35:20SPEAKEROr is amperage the water running through the pipe?
35:23SPEAKER- Amperage is the, voltage is the pressure.
35:26SPEAKER- Is watts volts times amps, is it that easy?
35:28SPEAKER- Amperage is the size of the hole.
35:30SPEAKER- Okay.
35:31SPEAKER- Is the size of the tube.
35:32SPEAKER- Okay.
35:33SPEAKER- I'm gonna, every time we talk about this on the podcast,
35:35SPEAKERI get it wrong and then a bunch of people yell at me.
35:37SPEAKER- I think maybe my mistake is always going to an analogy
35:39SPEAKERas opposed to I should probably just sit down
35:41SPEAKERand look at equations and they'll actually
35:43SPEAKERunderstand the relationship correctly.
35:45SPEAKER- No, I was right.
35:46SPEAKERVoltage is like the water pressure.
35:48SPEAKERAmps is like the volume of flow rate of the water.
35:51SPEAKER- Okay.
35:52SPEAKER- And then watts is the combination of those two numbers.
35:55SPEAKER- Yes, I did know that watts was kind of
35:56SPEAKERthe final output measurement.
35:58SPEAKERBut anyway, I want to say, is it correct?
36:03SPEAKERIt's not correct to say that volt amps
36:05SPEAKERis like directly equal to watts, right?
36:08SPEAKER- I don't, I don't ever understand why they did volt amps
36:10SPEAKERfor UPSs, honestly.
36:11SPEAKER- Maybe I'm not a suitable UPS owner.
36:13SPEAKERIf I'm asking questions like this, I don't know.
36:16SPEAKER- I mean, look, I'm, I'm, I believe in you.
36:19SPEAKER- It's a, it's a cyber power, it's 1500 VA.
36:21SPEAKERIt's one of the little tower units, you know,
36:23SPEAKERthe kind of tall, thin, made to sit on the floor
36:27SPEAKERbehind the desk type thing. - That to me says it's 1500 watts.
36:30SPEAKER- I'd have to look at the specs.
36:31SPEAKERI think it tops out at like a thousand watts
36:33SPEAKERor maybe 900 watts out total output.
36:36SPEAKER- Okay.
36:37SPEAKER- Anyway, I've had it for six years.
36:38SPEAKERWe talked on the Patreon episode last month's powder,
36:40SPEAKERpower outage in San Francisco revealed
36:42SPEAKERthat those batteries are beyond done.
36:44SPEAKER- Okay.
36:45SPEAKER- On your $200 battery replacement thing,
36:48SPEAKERI got a new pair of lead acid batteries
36:50SPEAKERthat go in this UPS for $45 shipped.
36:53SPEAKER- Two, two batteries?
36:54SPEAKER- Yeah, it takes two, it takes two batteries.
36:56SPEAKERThis model does, I think there were some,
36:58SPEAKERlike I was looking at an Eden that takes three, so that's.
37:00SPEAKER- Are these official cyber power batteries?
37:02SPEAKER- No, the official cyber power.
37:04SPEAKERYes, the official cyber power replacement cartridge thing
37:07SPEAKERis like 110 bucks or something like that.
37:10SPEAKER- That's still more reasonable for something
37:11SPEAKERthat lasts like seven to 10 years.
37:12SPEAKER- It's not bad, but I got these from,
37:14SPEAKERI pulled up a YouTube guide of a guy replacing batteries
37:17SPEAKERon his, and these are Expert Power,
37:19SPEAKERwhich is a company based in LA,
37:21SPEAKERand he said he's had good luck putting their batteries
37:23SPEAKERin cyber powers in the past, so.
37:24SPEAKER- Okay.
37:25SPEAKER- I gave it a shot.
37:26SPEAKER- And when they came, real quick aside,
37:28SPEAKERdon't you love it when something is, okay,
37:30SPEAKERyou know how things are always more complicated
37:31SPEAKERthan you think they're gonna be?
37:33SPEAKER- Yeah.
37:34SPEAKER- Don't you love it when the, once in a blue moon,
37:36SPEAKERsomething is actually way less complicated
37:39SPEAKERthan you think it's gonna be?
37:40SPEAKER- I don't think I've had one of those happen in so long
37:42SPEAKERthat I can't remember the last time it happened.
37:45SPEAKER- Like this guy had the same model as me,
37:46SPEAKERbut I guess the previous revision,
37:48SPEAKERbecause his process for swapping with aftermarket batteries
37:51SPEAKERand not using their kind of pre-made,
37:52SPEAKERtidy little official cartridge replacement.
37:55SPEAKER- To crack open a cartridge, your old cartridge,
37:57SPEAKERto put the new batteries in?
37:58SPEAKER- Not like breaking plastic or anything,
37:59SPEAKERbut you do have to, they do have like an intermediary
38:03SPEAKERsort of mount that you have to mount them to
38:04SPEAKERand get them to line up right to fit into the model
38:07SPEAKERand not blah, blah, blah.
38:08SPEAKER- That's annoying.
38:09SPEAKER- And I was like, all right,
38:10SPEAKERthat looks like a little bit of work,
38:11SPEAKERbut it's worth saving 60 bucks.
38:13SPEAKERIt's 10 minutes of work to be clear.
38:15SPEAKER- Yeah.
38:15SPEAKER- Anyway, the batteries get here, I open mine up,
38:17SPEAKERand it turns out they have dramatically simplified
38:19SPEAKERthe design as of whatever revision I have,
38:23SPEAKERand they just slot right in in 30 seconds.
38:25SPEAKERIt was nothing. - Oh, nice.
38:26SPEAKER- So that's just, I was like bracing myself for like,
38:28SPEAKERah, is it gonna be a pain in the ass
38:29SPEAKERto have to like try to route the wires
38:32SPEAKERand get it to fit, you know,
38:34SPEAKERtheir little custom proprietary mounting system
38:37SPEAKERand get them to fit in there?
38:38SPEAKERAnd it turns out, no, they actually just went to basic slots
38:40SPEAKERthat these batteries go in, so whatever.
38:42SPEAKER- That's fabulous.
38:43SPEAKER- Yeah, so I replaced the batteries, those were fine,
38:45SPEAKERput it together, it charged the batteries,
38:47SPEAKERit all seemed good.
38:48SPEAKERThree days later, I was sitting here at like 7.30
38:51SPEAKERin the morning on the computer and gearing up for work,
38:54SPEAKERand everything on the UPS just went dark.
38:58SPEAKERLike I heard a click under the desk,
39:00SPEAKERand everything that was hooked up to the UPS just died.
39:03SPEAKERAnd I got under there and had to like power cycle the UPS
39:06SPEAKERwith the power button, and it was still at 100% charge,
39:10SPEAKERbut it had just turned itself off.
39:11SPEAKER- Was it charge of lies, or was it a safety thing?
39:14SPEAKERDid you get a surge, you think?
39:15SPEAKER- I don't think so, I have no idea.
39:17SPEAKERIt had never done that in six years.
39:19SPEAKER- It's weird, you got the bootleg batteries
39:21SPEAKERand it stopped working, that's shocking.
39:23SPEAKER- Well, yeah, of course the immediate conclusion
39:25SPEAKERwas that something about the batteries was amiss.
39:28SPEAKERBut I had tested it after I put the batteries in,
39:30SPEAKERlike it ran fine off those batteries,
39:32SPEAKERit showed roughly expected capacity and runtime.
39:36SPEAKERAnd then I got to Googling and found large numbers of people
39:41SPEAKERwith similar cyber power models
39:43SPEAKERcomplaining about the exact same problem.
39:45SPEAKER- With the aftermarket batteries,
39:47SPEAKERor just like after the period of time?
39:49SPEAKER- Just in general, just hey, mine's three years old
39:51SPEAKERand it started doing this.
39:52SPEAKERI went on the kind of networking NAS server channel
39:56SPEAKERon our Discord and asked,
39:58SPEAKERhey, does anybody have a cyber power?
40:00SPEAKERHave you ever seen anything like this?
40:01SPEAKERLike instantly somebody responded with the same model
40:04SPEAKERthat I have saying like, yeah, I've got one of those,
40:06SPEAKERit's done that twice in the last six months,
40:08SPEAKERI'm replacing it soon.
40:09SPEAKER- So when I worked in the university IT department
40:15SPEAKERa very long time ago,
40:16SPEAKERwe replaced UPSs after five years, I think.
40:18SPEAKER- Yeah, so I have become aware
40:20SPEAKERthat like just the unit itself
40:22SPEAKERneeds to be replaced eventually.
40:24SPEAKERLike it's not enough to just replace the spent batteries
40:26SPEAKERbecause like capacitors wear out, et cetera, et cetera.
40:29SPEAKER- Yeah, it's like a search protector, right?
40:31SPEAKER- Search protection is not permanent, et cetera,
40:35SPEAKERbut I was hoping to get at least one more run of batteries
40:37SPEAKERout of this thing, but...
40:40SPEAKER- So what kind of UPS are you gonna buy now?
40:42SPEAKER- Well, I was definitely like,
40:44SPEAKERI was super pissed that day.
40:45SPEAKERI was all hot and heavy looking at APCs and EATNs
40:48SPEAKERand all kinds of stuff.
40:49SPEAKERI was just like, fuck this thing,
40:50SPEAKERI'm getting a new UPS right now,
40:51SPEAKERbut it hasn't done it since.
40:53SPEAKER- Oh.
40:54SPEAKER- So I guess I'm gonna chill until,
40:56SPEAKERif it does it again, it's gone.
40:57SPEAKERLike a UPS that turns itself off
41:00SPEAKERand kills everything connected to it
41:01SPEAKERis kind of like an anti-UPS.
41:03SPEAKER- Yeah, that defeats the whole purpose
41:04SPEAKERof having the gentle shutdown.
41:06SPEAKER- Especially when it has a fully charged battery.
41:08SPEAKERBut like there was one person in a Reddit thread I found
41:11SPEAKERwho had pulled theirs all the way apart
41:12SPEAKERand found like some questionable wiring or something.
41:16SPEAKERI don't know, I don't know.
41:17SPEAKERLike some people on our Discord though said like,
41:19SPEAKERhey, you know, this type of thing can also afflict APC
41:22SPEAKERor other common brands.
41:23SPEAKERLike it's not necessarily exclusive to cyber power.
41:27SPEAKERI don't know.
41:28SPEAKERAnyway, I'm like in a holding pattern,
41:31SPEAKERwaiting for that bizarre behavior to happen again.
41:33SPEAKERBut-
41:34SPEAKER- Well, I mean, you know,
41:35SPEAKERat least you got something to look forward to.
41:37SPEAKER- Well, all of that is a preamble
41:39SPEAKERto what happened yesterday, which was the main event.
41:41SPEAKER- Yeah.
41:42SPEAKER- Which is I tripped a circuit breaker in this room
41:43SPEAKERfor the first time in a very long time.
41:45SPEAKEROh, sorry.
41:47SPEAKERI phrased that poorly.
41:48SPEAKERI tripped the circuit breaker for the first time
41:50SPEAKERever in this room.
41:51SPEAKER- Okay.
41:52SPEAKER- But ever is a very long time of living in this apartment.
41:54SPEAKER- Yeah, you've lived in this apartment
41:55SPEAKERfor as long as I've known you.
41:56SPEAKER- Like way too long that I've been in this building.
41:58SPEAKER- So what were you doing when you tripped the breaker, Brad?
42:01SPEAKER- Yeah, I think I'm gonna say the very warm straw
42:04SPEAKERthat broke the camel's back was the space heater
42:06SPEAKERthat I was running at 85 degrees.
42:08SPEAKER- Yeah, that would do it.
42:09SPEAKER- Probably.
42:10SPEAKER- Those are usually good for a couple thousand, 1200 watts.
42:13SPEAKER- God, really?
42:14SPEAKER- Of draw.
42:14SPEAKERYeah, the space heaters can suck the little ceramic guys.
42:17SPEAKER- Oh, shit.
42:19SPEAKERWell, I don't know.
42:19SPEAKERI mean, this is like plastic and metal
42:21SPEAKERon the outside of the housing.
42:22SPEAKERI don't know what's--
42:23SPEAKER- But it's like the size of a toaster.
42:25SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a little bigger than that.
42:28SPEAKER- Yeah, those usually pull at least 500 watts
42:31SPEAKERand up to 1500.
42:32SPEAKERI have one of those.
42:33SPEAKERThat's good for 1200 watts, easy.
42:35SPEAKER- God, really?
42:36SPEAKEROkay, I had no idea they pulled that much.
42:37SPEAKER- Yeah, so your circuit, on a 15 amp circuit,
42:40SPEAKERit's 15 times 110, so that's like what?
42:44SPEAKER- 10 times 110?
42:44SPEAKER- That are installed here, 15 times 110.
42:48SPEAKER1650 watts theoretical.
42:50SPEAKER- Man, man.
42:52SPEAKER- So your 1500 is at the max,
42:54SPEAKER'cause there's some, you need some slack there.
42:56SPEAKER- Okay, well, so--
42:57SPEAKER- So that probably would have done it.
42:59SPEAKER- I mean, I've got two computers,
43:00SPEAKERI've got two computers running in here.
43:03SPEAKERSo I've got a couple of basic electrical wiring questions
43:06SPEAKERI'm gonna run by you here as I think about how this went down
43:09SPEAKERbut so the, I don't know what the NAS poles itself,
43:12SPEAKERI've said recently there are 10 hard drives in there,
43:15SPEAKERthat's a 12600K.
43:17SPEAKERThis desktop PC is a 14900K with a 4090 in it.
43:20SPEAKERI was playing a game at the time
43:22SPEAKERwhich may have actually been the thing
43:23SPEAKERthat really pushed it over.
43:24SPEAKER- My machine will hit 600 watts playing a game.
43:28SPEAKER- Okay, this was not a demanding game for what it's worth.
43:30SPEAKERThis was more of a quarantine zone
43:32SPEAKERbut I don't know that that matters.
43:33SPEAKER- So if you're playing the game, you're on a 14900?
43:38SPEAKER- Yes, it's power-limited to be clear.
43:40SPEAKER- It's under-volted a little bit, right?
43:41SPEAKER- It's not under-volted, it's I've got the PL2.
43:45SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
43:46SPEAKER- Intel's got the PL1 and PL2 settings
43:48SPEAKERfor both burst and sustain power draw.
43:51SPEAKERI've got that capped.
43:53SPEAKEREffectively the chip can't pull more than 185 watts.
43:55SPEAKER- Okay.
43:56SPEAKER- But so I can tell you at idle these two computers
43:59SPEAKERand everything else on this UPS are pulling about 275 watts
44:03SPEAKERbut that's nothing happening on this desktop
44:06SPEAKERand on me crawling under the desk and looking,
44:08SPEAKERI could have fired up a game,
44:09SPEAKERI just didn't think to do it.
44:10SPEAKER- Well okay, so running a game is going to,
44:12SPEAKERis definitely going to add quite a bit of draw to that.
44:16SPEAKER- So yeah, your video card alone will crank up
44:19SPEAKERand give you another few hundred watts minimum.
44:22SPEAKER- Yeah.
44:23SPEAKER- So okay, so yeah, you definitely hit 1600 watts on the,
44:27SPEAKERif the space heater's plugged into the same plugs
44:30SPEAKERas the UPS. - No, no, no, different plugs.
44:31SPEAKERSo that was one of the questions I was gonna ask.
44:32SPEAKERIt's plugged into an outlet across the room from here.
44:35SPEAKERBut so that's one of the questions I have.
44:38SPEAKEROkay, first question, are the two outlets
44:40SPEAKERon the same wall plate always guaranteed
44:42SPEAKERto be on the same circuit?
44:43SPEAKER- They're not, it depends on the way the plugs are set up.
44:45SPEAKERLike, yes, unless somebody did some specific screwy stuff
44:51SPEAKERand bought something special,
44:53SPEAKERif they went to the hardware store
44:54SPEAKERand bought the $1.99 plugs,
44:56SPEAKERwhich is what those cost usually,
44:58SPEAKERthen yes, they're the same circuit, for sure.
45:01SPEAKER- I'm gonna say in this building, definitely then.
45:03SPEAKER- Yeah, like unless you specifically do something
45:06SPEAKERto make that not happen,
45:07SPEAKERI don't know of a way to make that happen.
45:08SPEAKER- Okay, how about in the same room, though?
45:10SPEAKERLike how common is it to have outlets in the same room
45:12SPEAKERthat are on different circuits?
45:13SPEAKER- That varies wildly based on construction time
45:15SPEAKERand all that stuff.
45:17SPEAKERYour building was built in the '70s or '80s, I think.
45:19SPEAKER- '81, I wanna say, is when it was built.
45:21SPEAKER- Yeah, so it's almost certainly one circuit
45:24SPEAKERfor all the plugs in the room.
45:26SPEAKER- Okay, got it.
45:28SPEAKER- Like these days, modern code is such that they,
45:33SPEAKERlike I think in, depending on where you are,
45:34SPEAKERlike the code where I am is every five feet
45:37SPEAKERor six feet or something, there has to be a plug now
45:39SPEAKERbecause everybody's plugging a bazillion things in.
45:42SPEAKER- Oh, interesting.
45:42SPEAKER- When our houses were built in the '80s,
45:44SPEAKERyou think about what you plugged into a house in the '80s
45:46SPEAKERand it was like some floor lights in the TV,
45:48SPEAKERmaybe a stereo.
45:49SPEAKER- Maybe, yes, maybe.
45:52SPEAKERWild, I didn't know they regulated that sort of thing
45:55SPEAKERthat specifically.
45:56SPEAKER- Yeah, and it's more in the kitchen.
45:57SPEAKERSo in the kitchen, you have to have them closer
45:59SPEAKERand you have to have,
46:00SPEAKERif you don't have specific stuff set up,
46:03SPEAKERyou have to have ground faults on them
46:03SPEAKERand all sorts of stuff.
46:04SPEAKERAnyway.
46:06SPEAKER- Fun.
46:06SPEAKER- Yeah.
46:08SPEAKERIt's easy to find out though.
46:09SPEAKERSo take two of your floor lamps,
46:11SPEAKERplug them into all the outlets in the room
46:13SPEAKERand then go flip the breaker off
46:14SPEAKERand see which ones turn off.
46:15SPEAKER- Yeah, so I, frantically is maybe the wrong word,
46:18SPEAKERbut I somewhat urgently had to go around
46:20SPEAKERand find the circuit breaker,
46:21SPEAKERwhich is probably knowledge I should have had
46:23SPEAKERbefore yesterday.
46:24SPEAKER- Well, I mean, look, you've lived there for a long time
46:26SPEAKERand had to know it's not.
46:28SPEAKERThe space heater is the great tripper of circuit breakers.
46:31SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, sure.
46:32SPEAKERYeah, I definitely--
46:33SPEAKER- Toaster ovens, space heaters, microwave ovens.
46:36SPEAKER- It was extremely cold in here.
46:37SPEAKER- Electric dryers.
46:38SPEAKER- In my defense, very cold.
46:40SPEAKER- Was it really?
46:41SPEAKERIt was really warm down here yesterday.
46:41SPEAKER- Yesterday morning was very cold.
46:43SPEAKER- Oh, okay.
46:45SPEAKER- But I'd like to be clear,
46:47SPEAKERlike tripping a circuit is good, right?
46:49SPEAKERLike isn't that a--
46:50SPEAKER- Much better than burning the house down.
46:52SPEAKER- That's a protection mechanism, right?
46:53SPEAKERIt's not something to be concerned about.
46:54SPEAKERIt's a good that it happens.
46:56SPEAKER- Yeah, the reason it trips is 'cause you're trying
46:57SPEAKERto make more electricity go over the wire
46:59SPEAKERthan the wire can hold.
47:00SPEAKERAnd the wire's solution to more electricity going over it
47:04SPEAKERthan the wire can hold is,
47:05SPEAKERI'm gonna get real hot.
47:07SPEAKERSo yeah, it's a good thing that the circuit breaker trips.
47:10SPEAKER- Okay, so here's where we get into a bit more tech
47:15SPEAKERbefore we wrap this topic up.
47:17SPEAKERNut.
47:19SPEAKER- Your server, your Nut server.
47:20SPEAKER- Network UPS tools.
47:22SPEAKER- Yes.
47:23SPEAKER- I've been meaning to like audit that setup
47:24SPEAKER'cause it's neglected, it's bit rotted, if you like.
47:28SPEAKER- That's a good bit rot.
47:29SPEAKER- Some of the clients that are supposed to be connected
47:31SPEAKERto it and monitoring the UPS are not
47:34SPEAKER'cause I have gotten lazy about making them stay.
47:37SPEAKERAnyway, been meaning digging that thing anyway.
47:40SPEAKERHere's what really got weird yesterday.
47:42SPEAKERHere's the thing I am now pulling my hair out about.
47:44SPEAKER- Okay.
47:45SPEAKER- The trip circuit breaker happened in the morning,
47:48SPEAKERpower to these outlets was off for like 20 minutes.
47:51SPEAKERIt ran the battery down a good bit
47:53SPEAKERbefore I shut down the two computers,
47:55SPEAKERdown to like maybe 30% or something.
47:58SPEAKERBut I flipped circuit breaker in like 15 minutes.
48:00SPEAKERLike the UPS was back on wall power
48:02SPEAKERand charging again pretty quickly.
48:04SPEAKERAnd I turned all the computers back on, whatever.
48:07SPEAKERThat was probably like four or five hours after that.
48:13SPEAKERFor one thing, I turned on like the Pi KVM and the NAS
48:15SPEAKERwhich are monitoring Nut.
48:18SPEAKER- Okay.
48:19SPEAKER- And they would turn on and then immediately
48:20SPEAKERshut themselves back off.
48:21SPEAKERLike they would get through the boot
48:23SPEAKERand then they were getting the signal from Nut
48:25SPEAKERto shut themselves back down again as if-
48:29SPEAKER- The machine was off power.
48:31SPEAKER- Yes, as if power was out and the UPS was draining
48:34SPEAKERand was at a low battery state.
48:36SPEAKERSo it was like, you know the Pi KVM
48:37SPEAKERhas a little tiny little OLED screen on it.
48:39SPEAKER- Yeah.
48:40SPEAKER- I could literally sit there, turn that thing on,
48:41SPEAKERwatch it boot and like show its IP address
48:43SPEAKERand like its little status message on that screen.
48:46SPEAKER- And then the Nut server turned it off?
48:48SPEAKER- For about three seconds and then it would immediately
48:50SPEAKERshut down and go to the halted message on that little screen
48:52SPEAKERbecause it was just, the clients were being instructed
48:55SPEAKERto turn themselves off.
48:56SPEAKERThen I dug into the Nut server logs and I found this.
49:00SPEAKERUPS status set.
49:01SPEAKERThat is like one term with underscores in it.
49:03SPEAKERSeems that UPS is in OL plus discharge, DISCHRG state.
49:10SPEAKER- Okay.
49:10SPEAKER- Is it calibrating?
49:11SPEAKERPerhaps you want to set online discharge
49:13SPEAKERunderscore calibration option.
49:15SPEAKERNote that some UPS models, e.g. CyberPower UT series,
49:19SPEAKERemit OL plus discharge when in fact offline/on battery,
49:24SPEAKERperhaps you want to set online discharge option.
49:27SPEAKERThat's what was in the logs.
49:29SPEAKER- This seems like a Nut server configuration thing
49:32SPEAKERspecific to your UPS.
49:33SPEAKER- It 100% is.
49:34SPEAKERI think the OL, first of all, OL plus discharge
49:36SPEAKERclearly is online plus discharge.
49:38SPEAKER- Yeah.
49:40SPEAKERDid you--
49:41SPEAKER- So, that I think is a like status being emitted
49:45SPEAKERby the hardware in the very little--
49:47SPEAKER- Yeah, that's right.
49:48SPEAKER- In the extremely little, I have had the energy
49:50SPEAKERto look into this so far.
49:51SPEAKERI think OL plus discharge is a hardware code.
49:53SPEAKERLike that's something that the UPS emits.
49:55SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause it's connected with a serial port
49:57SPEAKERor something to the Nut server, right?
49:59SPEAKER- In my case, it is USB to, it's just USB to USB
50:04SPEAKERin this case.
50:05SPEAKERIt does have a serial port on it, but I'm not using that.
50:08SPEAKERBut it's, you're right.
50:09SPEAKERIt is, I believe that is a hardware status code
50:11SPEAKERthat is then up to Nut to interpret and act on.
50:14SPEAKER- Yeah.
50:15SPEAKER- And that's where I'm starting to get into the,
50:18SPEAKERdo I have the energy for this?
50:20SPEAKEROr should I just throw this thing in the trash?
50:22SPEAKERAnd by that, I mean, e-waste it and forget about UPSs
50:25SPEAKERbecause you quickly find that like every company
50:29SPEAKERemits these codes differently.
50:31SPEAKERLike they mean different things between companies.
50:34SPEAKERLike they show up in different situations
50:36SPEAKERand they mean different things and like diagnosing
50:38SPEAKERwhat your specific vendor of UPS means by a thing
50:41SPEAKERand configuring it to handle that.
50:43SPEAKER- That seems annoying.
50:44SPEAKER- Is going to be a lot.
50:45SPEAKERAt one point, at one point it was one of the situations
50:47SPEAKERwhere I was looking through like GitHub issues and stuff.
50:49SPEAKERAnd I, if I'm not mistaken, somebody linked to source code.
50:53SPEAKERLike.
50:54SPEAKER- Oh boy.
50:55SPEAKER- I'm sure you've hit one of those before, right?
50:58SPEAKER- Yeah. I usually just move on and do something else
51:00SPEAKERto solve the problem.
51:01SPEAKER- That's when you know you're really in the shit
51:03SPEAKERwhere the only remaining avenue for you to diagnose
51:06SPEAKERwhat's going on is somebody links to like a literal C file
51:08SPEAKERon a GitHub repo.
51:09SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
51:10SPEAKER- And it's like at best you're combing through some comments
51:13SPEAKERin that source, if they exist.
51:16SPEAKEROtherwise it's down to your ability to read C.
51:18SPEAKER- Let me ask you something.
51:19SPEAKER- And like, I don't know if I'm quite there yet,
51:21SPEAKERbut we'll see.
51:22SPEAKER- When you were working on the, on the UPS,
51:24SPEAKERdid you perchance upgrade the firmware on it?
51:27SPEAKER- No, but I meant to look into that.
51:28SPEAKERYou're reminding me.
51:29SPEAKERI meant to look for cyber power firmware updates yesterday
51:32SPEAKERand forgot. Why do you ask?
51:33SPEAKER- Well, 'cause I wondered if you updated the firmware
51:35SPEAKERand they changed the way they handled the situation.
51:37SPEAKER- No, I have not updated it.
51:38SPEAKER- But the power doesn't go out all that often.
51:40SPEAKERSo you may not have had a power off situation
51:42SPEAKERthat caused something like this to happen.
51:44SPEAKER- Maybe not.
51:44SPEAKERLike I said, it was only out for like 20 minutes,
51:46SPEAKERbut the thing I don't understand is that the batteries were
51:49SPEAKERwhen it, when it, when everything went off yesterday also.
51:51SPEAKERSo yesterday it went off
51:52SPEAKERand immediately turned itself back on.
51:53SPEAKER- Yeah.
51:54SPEAKER- And that's when I looked in the logs and realized like,
51:56SPEAKERokay, it was doing some kind of aberrant behavior here.
52:00SPEAKER- So when you, but was the NAS,
52:01SPEAKERwhen you looked at the front of the NAS,
52:03SPEAKERdid it show it was charging again?
52:04SPEAKER- The UPS, you mean?
52:05SPEAKER- The UPS, yeah.
52:06SPEAKER- Yeah, it had been charging all day.
52:07SPEAKERI had looked at it periodically.
52:09SPEAKERIt had been charging the batteries.
52:10SPEAKERLike it was-
52:11SPEAKER- I don't know about that.
52:12SPEAKERThat's weird.
52:13SPEAKER- Like, like these states that the nut log suggested,
52:15SPEAKERonline discharge underscore calibration,
52:17SPEAKERmakes me wonder if it was in some kind of weird.
52:20SPEAKERIt was, was it in some kind of weird calibration?
52:21SPEAKERDo I need to calibrate these batteries?
52:23SPEAKERWas it in some kind of self-test mode
52:24SPEAKERbecause of the power had gone out?
52:26SPEAKERI don't know.
52:26SPEAKER- It makes sense that it would be calibrating
52:29SPEAKERgiven how new the batteries are to it.
52:31SPEAKER- Maybe, yeah.
52:32SPEAKER- I mean, I would assume that you put a new battery
52:34SPEAKERand you have to run a calibration on it anyway,
52:36SPEAKERespecially with your aftermarket batteries,
52:38SPEAKERbut I don't know.
52:39SPEAKERThat's weird.
52:41SPEAKERIs it still turning your stuff off
52:42SPEAKERor did this resolve itself?
52:44SPEAKER- No, this happened once yesterday.
52:45SPEAKERAnd then I rebooted the Raspberry Pi that nut runs on
52:49SPEAKERand it has not given that state again in the logs, so.
52:54SPEAKER- I mean, that seems like it fixed itself, man.
52:56SPEAKER- I guess, like that's kind of where I've ended up
52:58SPEAKERwith both of these situations
52:59SPEAKERwhere it shut itself off last week
53:01SPEAKERand then out now the weird behavior
53:02SPEAKERwith the power outage yesterday.
53:04SPEAKERIt's just like.
53:05SPEAKER- Just, you know, consider yourself blessed.
53:08SPEAKER- Is there some kind of-
53:09SPEAKER- It's coming up Brad.
53:10SPEAKER- Like what's the thing with the trough of despair
53:12SPEAKERor the something, something hype cycle?
53:14SPEAKER- Oh, the slope of what do you mean
53:18SPEAKERwhen you leave the trough of despair?
53:20SPEAKER- Yeah, well, I'm just saying, you know,
53:21SPEAKERlike the idea of graphing various psychological phenomena.
53:25SPEAKERI was going to say that we should graph-
53:27SPEAKER- The slope of enlightenment is where you're at now.
53:29SPEAKER- So we need to come up with a similar,
53:31SPEAKERlike declining slope for urge to fix a thing
53:35SPEAKERdue to like proximity of problem, you know what I mean?
53:38SPEAKER- Yeah.
53:39SPEAKER- Like the day something like this happens,
53:41SPEAKERyou're like running around like a chicken
53:44SPEAKERwith your head cut off, like they say back home.
53:46SPEAKERJust going, I've got to fix this.
53:47SPEAKERLike my UPS can't be this unreliable, I've got to fix this.
53:51SPEAKERThe next day you're like, well, it hasn't done it again.
53:53SPEAKERMaybe I'll see how it goes.
53:55SPEAKERThe day after that, you're like, well, okay, now I don't care.
53:58SPEAKERYou know what I mean?
53:59SPEAKER- I have a, you know, let's just say
54:02SPEAKERI've been cultivating a healthy embrace of entropy.
54:06SPEAKERYou know, I feel like, you know, I turned 50 last year.
54:12SPEAKERI've spent a fair amount of time working
54:15SPEAKERagainst the thermodynamic equilibrium.
54:18SPEAKER- Yep, same.
54:19SPEAKER- And maybe it's time to, you know,
54:21SPEAKERlet the entropy take over, you know, it's a...
54:24SPEAKER- No, I mean, to an extent, this being my work machine
54:27SPEAKERand doing a lot of recordings on it,
54:29SPEAKERit's nice to have that protection.
54:31SPEAKER- It's probably fine.
54:32SPEAKER- Power to go out and like at least have time
54:34SPEAKERto like gracefully stop the recording
54:35SPEAKERand make sure I don't lose it.
54:37SPEAKER- Look, I'm gonna knock on wood.
54:40SPEAKERWe've made 321 episodes of this podcast
54:43SPEAKERplus about 60 more patron episodes.
54:46SPEAKERAlmost all of them were recorded sitting at this desk.
54:49SPEAKER- Sure.
54:50SPEAKER- It's been fine.
54:51SPEAKER- I do a fair number of hours of recording a week
54:54SPEAKERat this thing.
54:54SPEAKER- That's true, you do do more than I do.
54:56SPEAKERI just, I don't wanna have another huge box here
55:00SPEAKERthat's big enough to drive this PC.
55:02SPEAKER- Yeah, I definitely get that.
55:03SPEAKER- Yeah.
55:04SPEAKER- I don't know.
55:05SPEAKERI think I'm, even though it's barely 24 hours
55:08SPEAKERsince this last incident,
55:09SPEAKERI think I'm back in a holding pattern again,
55:11SPEAKERbut I think like one more weird thing with this thing
55:14SPEAKERand I'm probably gonna be in the market for a new UPS.
55:17SPEAKER- I gotta say, I'm a little surprised
55:19SPEAKERat your willingness to cut this UPS loose
55:21SPEAKERgiven the tight grip that you've held on that DBX,
55:25SPEAKERwhich has been way more fail-y over the last year.
55:27SPEAKER- That is a completely different situation.
55:29SPEAKER- Okay, okay.
55:31SPEAKER- Like the overhead, again, as I said,
55:34SPEAKERI spend a lot of time recording at this desk every week.
55:37SPEAKER- That's true.
55:38SPEAKER- Like the overhead of having to get new equipment in,
55:39SPEAKERcycle it out, redo the wiring and everything.
55:42SPEAKER- Fair.
55:43SPEAKER- It's a lot when I just need things to work
55:45SPEAKERand when they work 90% of the time,
55:47SPEAKERit's very easy to,
55:48SPEAKERespecially when the 10% that it doesn't work
55:50SPEAKERis diffused throughout the day or the week or the month.
55:53SPEAKER- Yeah.
55:54SPEAKER- It seems to be mostly concentrated
55:56SPEAKERin when we're recording this podcast.
55:58SPEAKER- It has, well, I've now found that hitting it
56:01SPEAKERis much more effective than power cycling it.
56:03SPEAKER- The classic solution.
56:04SPEAKER- I am going to RNA that thing.
56:06SPEAKERI will get around to it eventually,
56:07SPEAKERbut it's also, I need to order the new stuff
56:10SPEAKERand have it ready to install
56:11SPEAKERbefore I send the old thing off.
56:13SPEAKER- Well, okay.
56:15SPEAKER- That was just a long-winded way of saying
56:17SPEAKERI'm in a weird state with this thing
56:18SPEAKERand I probably need to do a lot of nut documentation
56:21SPEAKERreading this weekend.
56:22SPEAKER- I think you just brought this up
56:25SPEAKER'cause you wanted to talk about your nut server
56:26SPEAKERand your nut logs at length.
56:28SPEAKER- There's also APC-UPSD,
56:30SPEAKERwhich I think is a competing product.
56:34SPEAKER- Oh.
56:34SPEAKER- If I'm not mistaken.
56:35SPEAKER- I think you'd have to get an APC-UPSD to use that though,
56:37SPEAKERwouldn't you?
56:38SPEAKER- Here it is right here on the Debian Wiki, APC-UPSD.
56:41SPEAKERMaybe I'll switch to that.
56:43SPEAKER- Yeah, there you go.
56:43SPEAKER- Instead of nut, I don't know.
56:45SPEAKER- You got to get off that nut.
56:46SPEAKER- Yeah, last thing I'll say,
56:47SPEAKERI know you've got one more topic to talk about here,
56:49SPEAKERbut I availed myself of something I heard you talking about
56:52SPEAKERon the Dual Boot Diaries,
56:53SPEAKERwhich is Journal D's facility for storing all the logs
56:58SPEAKERfrom previous boots.
56:59SPEAKER- Oh my God, it's the best thing, is it not?
57:00SPEAKER- It's very good.
57:01SPEAKER- Yeah. - It's very good.
57:03SPEAKER- For folks who don't know this,
57:04SPEAKERyou can put a, is it just dash
57:06SPEAKERand then the number of boots back you want to go?
57:07SPEAKER- No, so it's, Journal CTL is the command.
57:10SPEAKEROkay, hold me back up.
57:11SPEAKERThis is a Linux thing.
57:13SPEAKER- Yeah.
57:14SPEAKER- Journal D is a component of system D.
57:15SPEAKERIt's the thing that collects all the system logs
57:17SPEAKERand makes them browsable, searchable, whatever.
57:20SPEAKERIf you do Journal CTL dash B.
57:23SPEAKER- Dash B and then a number, yeah.
57:24SPEAKER- So if you do just raw dash B,
57:26SPEAKERit'll give you the current boot.
57:27SPEAKERIt'll give you all the system logs for the current boot.
57:30SPEAKERBut if you do dash B and then minus one,
57:33SPEAKERit'll work backwards.
57:34SPEAKERSo if you use negative numbers,
57:35SPEAKERminus one was the previous boot.
57:38SPEAKERMinus two is the one before that.
57:40SPEAKERSo.
57:40SPEAKER- So when you have a crash or something hangs your system,
57:43SPEAKERyou can get into the previous set of logs
57:45SPEAKERand it just stops at the crash, which is incredible.
57:47SPEAKER- So when you've got all these like freak power events
57:50SPEAKERthat like I'm talking about,
57:51SPEAKERI'm able to go through successive older sets of system logs
57:56SPEAKERand see what the hell was going on.
57:57SPEAKERIt's very good.
57:59SPEAKERI started to say, if only Windows had something like that,
58:01SPEAKERI guess the event viewer is kind of that.
58:02SPEAKER- The event viewer doesn't, but the event viewer
58:04SPEAKERdoesn't give you clean stops and starts.
58:05SPEAKERYou have to keep, you have to scroll and find it.
58:07SPEAKERThat's annoying.
58:08SPEAKER- An event viewer is not fun to use.
58:10SPEAKERAll right.
58:11SPEAKER- Let me talk to you about my cascading comedy of errors
58:14SPEAKERfailure on Monday morning.
58:16SPEAKERMonday morning, I got up early and I was just hanging out.
58:19SPEAKERI was watching Pluribus in the living room
58:21SPEAKERbefore everybody was awake.
58:22SPEAKER'Cause that's a dad only show.
58:24SPEAKERIt's too- - Really?
58:25SPEAKER- Gina doesn't, it's too creepy for Gina.
58:27SPEAKER- Oh, well, creepy is, wow.
58:28SPEAKERWe haven't started it yet.
58:29SPEAKERCreepy is not a word I would have expected to be applied
58:32SPEAKERto that show, I guess.
58:33SPEAKER- It is not what I was expecting from the marketing,
58:35SPEAKERbut it's worth watching.
58:36SPEAKERYou guys will love it.
58:37SPEAKERIt's very much up your alley.
58:38SPEAKER- Okay.
58:39SPEAKER- I think I'll probably watch it with the kiddo
58:40SPEAKERat some point.
58:41SPEAKERI got to make sure it's not too adult for her
58:43SPEAKERby the time we get to the end.
58:43SPEAKERBut anyway, I was watching and the internet
58:47SPEAKERseemed to be working fine.
58:49SPEAKERAnd then my daughter woke up and was like,
58:51SPEAKERhey, I can't log into my class portal.
58:53SPEAKERI was like, well, why not?
58:54SPEAKERThe internet's working.
58:55SPEAKERI'm on Apple TV right now.
58:56SPEAKERAnd she's like, well, it's not working.
58:58SPEAKERSo I loaded up my phone.
59:00SPEAKERI tried to go to the internet and nothing was connecting.
59:03SPEAKERI was like, oh, crap.
59:05SPEAKERWell, okay, what could this be?
59:08SPEAKERIs the internet down?
59:08SPEAKERNo, the internet's not down
59:09SPEAKER'cause Apple TV's working, blah, blah, blah.
59:11SPEAKERIt's probably not DNS 'cause I was able to connect
59:13SPEAKERto the Apple TV, yada, yada, yada.
59:15SPEAKER- Sorry, nothing was working at all?
59:19SPEAKER- Some websites were working and some websites worked.
59:21SPEAKERSo when I went to Google, that worked.
59:24SPEAKERWhen I went to something else, it did not.
59:26SPEAKERSomething I hadn't been to recently, it did not.
59:29SPEAKERSo some Google results, I was able to see the results
59:31SPEAKERin Google and then click through the page
59:32SPEAKERand that didn't go anywhere.
59:33SPEAKER- Okay, that seems telling.
59:36SPEAKER- So eventually I was like,
59:38SPEAKERI did the whole fucking DNS haiku, the it's, hold on.
59:43SPEAKER- It's not DNS, there's no way it's DNS.
59:46SPEAKER- Yeah, it was DNS.
59:47SPEAKER- It was DNS.
59:48SPEAKER- Yeah, and that led me to my pie hole.
59:52SPEAKERAnd since we spoke last about the pie holes,
59:54SPEAKERI had a spare pie three here
59:57SPEAKERand I set up a redundant pie hole.
1:00:00SPEAKERBut my pie is also my DHCP server
1:00:03SPEAKERand obviously I'm not gonna
1:00:05SPEAKERredundantly set up two DHCP servers on the network
1:00:07SPEAKER'cause that's super no bueno.
1:00:11SPEAKERAnd I was doing the whole thing
1:00:14SPEAKERand I was like, oh, this is gonna be, this is great.
1:00:17SPEAKERNow, the cascading series of failures.
1:00:19SPEAKERThis is a blameless post-mortem.
1:00:21SPEAKERWe're not gonna talk about
1:00:22SPEAKERwho made the boneheaded decision here.
1:00:26SPEAKERBut I set up the second Raspberry Pi
1:00:28SPEAKERand I did not import the DHCP settings.
1:00:32SPEAKERI just copied the list, the gravity lists
1:00:39SPEAKERthat I used to block ads for those DNS servers.
1:00:41SPEAKERI keep those synced up.
1:00:43SPEAKER- And I think DHCP is opt-in on pie hole, right?
1:00:45SPEAKER- DHCP is opt-in on pie hole
1:00:47SPEAKERand I have a bunch of static IPs set up
1:00:49SPEAKERbecause of course I do.
1:00:52SPEAKERI have a lot of machines that talk to each other
1:00:54SPEAKERand it's nice to have static IPs for those.
1:00:56SPEAKER- Static DHCP leases, those are different.
1:00:58SPEAKER- And all my static IPs except for the pie hole
1:01:00SPEAKERare assigned by the DHCP server.
1:01:03SPEAKER- Okay.
1:01:05SPEAKER- So I set up the second one
1:01:06SPEAKERand I set the main one that's the DHCP server
1:01:09SPEAKERup as the primary DNS on all the machines in the house
1:01:13SPEAKERand the secondary one is the secondary DHCP server.
1:01:15SPEAKERNow--
1:01:16SPEAKER- Wait, secondary DHCP server?
1:01:18SPEAKER- I'm sorry, secondary DNS server, sorry.
1:01:21SPEAKER- Okay, and how are you, just to lay the groundwork,
1:01:24SPEAKERhow are you advertising or telling clients
1:01:27SPEAKERwhat the DNS servers are?
1:01:29SPEAKERIs that just in your--
1:01:30SPEAKER- On most of them it comes through DHCP
1:01:32SPEAKERon a handful of its manual.
1:01:34SPEAKER- Okay.
1:01:35SPEAKER- It's the IPv6, the machines that have IPv6 turned on,
1:01:39SPEAKERI have to do some shenanigans to make them use
1:01:42SPEAKERthe pie hole DNS instead of the AT&T DNS
1:01:47SPEAKERthat's advertised by my ISP.
1:01:49SPEAKER- Got it.
1:01:50SPEAKER- And this is all, it's all set up like this
1:01:52SPEAKERbecause I have to use the stupid Motorola AT&T router
1:01:57SPEAKERand you can't, you can turn off the DHCP server
1:02:00SPEAKERbut you can't set, you can't set the DHCP server
1:02:05SPEAKERon that thing to assign your own DNS servers
1:02:08SPEAKER'cause they don't want you to do that.
1:02:10SPEAKER- Okay, what is your router besides the AT&T one?
1:02:12SPEAKER- I'm just using the AT&T one.
1:02:13SPEAKER- Oh, you don't have another one.
1:02:15SPEAKER- I only use the AT&T one for routing.
1:02:17SPEAKERAll it does is route it.
1:02:18SPEAKERThe DHCP server's turned off, the WiFi's turned off,
1:02:21SPEAKERall it does is route and have a couple of ports
1:02:23SPEAKERthat are open and ported.
1:02:25SPEAKER- Got it.
1:02:26SPEAKER- So apparently at some point in the indeterminate past,
1:02:30SPEAKERthe backup pie hole had shit the bed and stopped working.
1:02:33SPEAKER- Okay.
1:02:34SPEAKER- I didn't notice that 'cause it was set up
1:02:35SPEAKERas a secondary DNS server on all of the clients.
1:02:38SPEAKER- Okay.
1:02:39SPEAKER- And the primary was working so it just never came up
1:02:41SPEAKERand I didn't, I wasn't clever enough to foresee
1:02:44SPEAKERthat this was going to be a problem and think,
1:02:47SPEAKERoh, I need a way to track and see if this DNS server
1:02:50SPEAKERis running, right?
1:02:51SPEAKERI don't have a dashboard or anything like that.
1:02:53SPEAKERI'm not checking it regularly.
1:02:55SPEAKERI don't even look at it ever.
1:02:56SPEAKERI try not to think about it except for once a month
1:02:58SPEAKERI sync up the, any changes to the gravity list,
1:03:01SPEAKERwhich I don't really make that often anymore.
1:03:05SPEAKERSo when the primary, when the hardware
1:03:08SPEAKERand the primary one failed, and of course,
1:03:10SPEAKERI've done all the best practices.
1:03:11SPEAKERLike I have all RAM to log and all that stuff running on 'em
1:03:13SPEAKERso I'm not doing a bunch of writes to the SD cards
1:03:15SPEAKERor anything like that.
1:03:16SPEAKER- Sorry, what hardware is the primary?
1:03:18SPEAKER- A Pi 3.
1:03:19SPEAKER- Okay, and a Pi 3 for the secondary?
1:03:21SPEAKER- They're both Raspberry Pi 3s, yeah.
1:03:22SPEAKER- Oh, interesting, okay.
1:03:23SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:03:24SPEAKERI mean, it's just, I had the Raspberry Pi 3
1:03:27SPEAKERthat's the secondary was my old home assistant server
1:03:30SPEAKERbefore I got the Pi, the home assistant yellow.
1:03:33SPEAKER- Got it.
1:03:34SPEAKER- So the primary conked out and when I looked at it,
1:03:38SPEAKERmy initial reaction was, oh crap, it's probably the SD card
1:03:42SPEAKER'cause that's usually what it is
1:03:43SPEAKERwhen something like that happens on a Raspberry Pi.
1:03:46SPEAKERAnd I plugged the SD card in and it was fine.
1:03:48SPEAKERAnd I was like, this is weird.
1:03:49SPEAKERAnd I unplugged, I dismounted it and plugged it back in
1:03:51SPEAKERand I was like, it's still fine.
1:03:52SPEAKERDidn't do it a few times just to see
1:03:53SPEAKER'cause sometimes, typically when they fail,
1:03:55SPEAKERthey're wonky for a little bit.
1:03:59SPEAKERAnd it took me a shocking, I'll skip to the chase here.
1:04:03SPEAKERBut the actual problem was that the primary hardware
1:04:06SPEAKERhas conked out finally.
1:04:07SPEAKER- Really?
1:04:08SPEAKER- I mean, it's been running nonstop for like a decade
1:04:09SPEAKERso it's not super surprising.
1:04:10SPEAKER- God, is Pi 3 that old?
1:04:12SPEAKER- Yeah, it's pretty old.
1:04:15SPEAKERI think I set that up while we were doing the podcast.
1:04:16SPEAKERIt's probably only been six years.
1:04:18SPEAKER- Oh, I'll look up when it came out.
1:04:19SPEAKERBut what do you mean by conked out?
1:04:21SPEAKERHow do you know it's dead, dead?
1:04:23SPEAKER- It don't boot.
1:04:25SPEAKERSo I haven't plugged it into a monitor,
1:04:29SPEAKERbut it was getting boot errors
1:04:31SPEAKERand sometimes the Linux kernel would boot
1:04:34SPEAKERand sometimes it wouldn't when I was trying to,
1:04:36SPEAKERsometimes I could remote into it, sometimes I couldn't.
1:04:38SPEAKER- Did you try it with multiple SD cards?
1:04:39SPEAKER- I tried it with multiple SD cards.
1:04:41SPEAKERI tried it with a clean Raspbian install.
1:04:43SPEAKER- Wild.
1:04:44SPEAKER- And I've never actually seen that before.
1:04:46SPEAKERThis is a new one for me.
1:04:47SPEAKER- Do you have any cooling on it?
1:04:49SPEAKER- No, of course not, it's a Raspberry Pi.
1:04:51SPEAKER- Well, I mean the four and up definitely.
1:04:52SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:04:53SPEAKER- Cooling is recommended.
1:04:54SPEAKER- Yeah, if it was a four,
1:04:55SPEAKERI'd definitely have a heat sink on it or something, but.
1:04:57SPEAKER- I guess the three was like kind of cooling optional.
1:05:00SPEAKER- Yeah, and like in fairness, it's limited in my garage,
1:05:02SPEAKERwhich sometimes is a hundred degrees
1:05:03SPEAKERand sometimes it's 40 degrees, you know, like.
1:05:06SPEAKER- I don't know how hardened it is
1:05:07SPEAKERagainst the extreme conditions.
1:05:10SPEAKERI'm within the range that's allowed,
1:05:12SPEAKERbut if it ever got above 120 in there,
1:05:14SPEAKERI'd have to turn it off, I think.
1:05:16SPEAKERSo the TLDR is, before I realized that,
1:05:20SPEAKERI went through the whole process
1:05:21SPEAKERof reinstalling the Raspberry Pi OS.
1:05:24SPEAKERI did realize I'm on a now like many years
1:05:28SPEAKERunsupported LTS version of the Raspbian Raspberry Pi OS,
1:05:32SPEAKERwhich is a Debian base.
1:05:35SPEAKERSo I have to figure out the upgrade process for that.
1:05:37SPEAKERAnd it seems like the upgrade process is,
1:05:39SPEAKERyo, just do a reinstall.
1:05:40SPEAKER- Yeah, so Raspberry Pi officially does not support
1:05:44SPEAKERfull upgrades between Debian versions,
1:05:47SPEAKERwhich is kind of weird to me at this point,
1:05:49SPEAKERbut they absolutely, you could try it, like it might work,
1:05:52SPEAKERbut they officially say, no, just go wipe it and reinstall.
1:05:56SPEAKER- Well, so the reason I brought this up
1:05:57SPEAKERand I thought it was interesting to talk about it is,
1:05:59SPEAKERI was really surprised, it's surprisingly difficult
1:06:02SPEAKERto set up a Raspberry Pi OS with a static IP address
1:06:05SPEAKERif you're running it headless all the time.
1:06:07SPEAKERIt turns out you can open up the SD card,
1:06:10SPEAKERyou can mount the SD card with something
1:06:11SPEAKERthat recognizes the file system,
1:06:13SPEAKERand you can manually edit the ETC slash whatever,
1:06:19SPEAKERI can't remember the name of the file off the top of my head
1:06:21SPEAKERbut it's the file, there's a file that you can,
1:06:25SPEAKERthat systemd looks at.
1:06:26SPEAKER- Is it resolve.conf?
1:06:27SPEAKER- It's resolve.conf, thank you.
1:06:29SPEAKER- That's for DNS, so that actually, that predates,
1:06:31SPEAKERnot only does that predates systemd, that predates Linux,
1:06:34SPEAKERlike that's just a Unix thing.
1:06:35SPEAKER- It's just a Unix file.
1:06:36SPEAKER- Resolve.conf is a broad Unix thing,
1:06:39SPEAKERbut that's typically, or traditionally,
1:06:40SPEAKERthat's where the DNS server addresses live.
1:06:43SPEAKER- So, yeah.
1:06:44SPEAKER- 'Cause I think I'm getting,
1:06:46SPEAKERlet me get down my rabbit hole here,
1:06:48SPEAKERbut I think like that's traditionally,
1:06:49SPEAKERlike C programs are looking at that.
1:06:51SPEAKERI think like that might even be built
1:06:53SPEAKERinto like the C standard library or something
1:06:55SPEAKERto check there first for name server resolution and stuff.
1:06:59SPEAKERI'm not a hundred percent sure, but anyway,
1:07:01SPEAKERI like history of Unix stuff, but that's a pretty old one.
1:07:05SPEAKER- So it's really hard to get a static IP setup.
1:07:08SPEAKERI had to put it on etcdhcpcd.conf to get that to run.
1:07:17SPEAKER- DHCP CD is like several Raspberry Pi OSs ago,
1:07:20SPEAKERif I'm not mistaken, you were definitely on an old one.
1:07:23SPEAKERI think they stopped you.
1:07:25SPEAKERThat's one of those things,
1:07:26SPEAKERsorry to turn this into the dual brew diaries,
1:07:27SPEAKERbut that's one of those things where there are
1:07:29SPEAKERat least half a dozen different ways
1:07:31SPEAKERto configure a network adapter in Linux.
1:07:33SPEAKER- This is, it was maddening.
1:07:34SPEAKER- And that's one of them.
1:07:36SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:07:37SPEAKER- The thing about resolve.conf is a lot of the,
1:07:39SPEAKERa lot of those ways to configure your networking in Linux
1:07:41SPEAKERwill take control of it now.
1:07:43SPEAKER- Oh yeah, of course.
1:07:44SPEAKER- Like network manager, systemd networkd,
1:07:46SPEAKERlike they will edit that file for you.
1:07:48SPEAKERAnd in fact, generally tell you not to touch it.
1:07:50SPEAKERSo if you try to manually edit it,
1:07:52SPEAKERthey may just overwrite your changes instantly.
1:07:54SPEAKER- Which was the problem I had over and over again.
1:07:56SPEAKERI ended up having to remote into that machine
1:07:58SPEAKERusing the IPv6 address that it was assigned automatically.
1:08:02SPEAKERAnd I was able to get to it there
1:08:03SPEAKERand there as I would make the changes.
1:08:06SPEAKERBut it was a fairly substantial hassle.
1:08:08SPEAKERAnd the thing I'm gonna say,
1:08:10SPEAKERthe reason I'm talking about this is,
1:08:13SPEAKERsetting up the pie hole was relatively easy.
1:08:16SPEAKERFixing the pie hole when I couldn't resolve DNS addresses
1:08:20SPEAKERwas an enormous pain in the butt.
1:08:21SPEAKER- I've run into similar situations before.
1:08:23SPEAKER- So I'm gonna suggest that if you're doing this,
1:08:26SPEAKERit's worth doing the failover.
1:08:30SPEAKERAnd when you do the failover,
1:08:31SPEAKERmake sure you pipe your DHCP stuff over
1:08:33SPEAKERso you can flip the switch on the failover
1:08:36SPEAKERif the first one goes down.
1:08:38SPEAKERI didn't expect this to be a problem.
1:08:40SPEAKEROf course, I realized that this was all happening
1:08:42SPEAKERwhen my daughter had about 20 minutes
1:08:43SPEAKERuntil her class started.
1:08:45SPEAKERAnd Vinny and I were an hour
1:08:46SPEAKERfrom starting the next Lander stream on Monday.
1:08:50SPEAKERSo I did, everything was working
1:08:52SPEAKERby the time the stream started.
1:08:53SPEAKERMy daughter missed the first five minutes of her class.
1:08:56SPEAKERWe were all good.
1:08:57SPEAKER- Breeze under fire.
1:08:59SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, like I got to go through
1:09:02SPEAKERand one of my projects for this weekend
1:09:04SPEAKERis to get that stuff in order
1:09:05SPEAKER'cause I kind of hacked it together.
1:09:06SPEAKERAnd then at one o'clock in the morning,
1:09:08SPEAKERone night this weekend, I'll fix it when nobody's awake.
1:09:10SPEAKER- Yeah, I'll advocate for blocky again here.
1:09:14SPEAKERYou might look into it.
1:09:15SPEAKERIt's command line only.
1:09:16SPEAKERYou know, it uses a single gamble file for configuration.
1:09:19SPEAKERLike it's definitely not web dashboard like pie hole.
1:09:22SPEAKERLike it's much more stripped down, but.
1:09:24SPEAKER- Does it do DHCP?
1:09:25SPEAKERIt doesn't, does it?
1:09:26SPEAKER- It does not, no.
1:09:27SPEAKERSo you actually, yeah, so it may be not good for you
1:09:28SPEAKERif you don't want to use,
1:09:29SPEAKERif you don't want to turn that back on on your router.
1:09:32SPEAKER- I do not.
1:09:33SPEAKER'Cause it won't let me assign stuff dynamically on the,
1:09:35SPEAKERlike, yeah, anyway.
1:09:36SPEAKERBut yeah.
1:09:37SPEAKER- Blocky has some nice simple options for kind of fallback.
1:09:41SPEAKERLike if it can't read the ad block list, for example,
1:09:43SPEAKERyou can tell it to just pass straight through
1:09:45SPEAKERto the upstream DNS and not.
1:09:47SPEAKER- Oh, that's good.
1:09:47SPEAKER- So like it won't, if something about it fails,
1:09:50SPEAKERit'll just pass everything through
1:09:51SPEAKERand not prevent you from using the internet.
1:09:54SPEAKERThat would not have helped if like,
1:09:56SPEAKERsay both machines running in both instances
1:09:58SPEAKERwere dead or whatever, then you're still screwed.
1:10:01SPEAKER- I'm gonna advocate for one more thing before we go.
1:10:04SPEAKERI, a few years ago, bought some of those TP-Link smart plugs
1:10:08SPEAKERthat give you live power data on your smart plug switches.
1:10:14SPEAKERYou obviously don't want to get the dimmer ones
1:10:16SPEAKERif you're plugging a PC or something into it
1:10:17SPEAKER'cause it'll blow them up.
1:10:19SPEAKERBut you could get a four pack for like 30 bucks at Amazon.
1:10:22SPEAKER- Dude, I should do that.
1:10:23SPEAKERWell.
1:10:24SPEAKER- And it's worth buying a couple just so you can kind of,
1:10:27SPEAKER'cause you can hook them into Home Assistant,
1:10:29SPEAKERyou get a live dashboard of whatever you have plugged in.
1:10:31SPEAKER- Like I'm never gonna like use the smart plug part of that
1:10:34SPEAKERon a PC necessarily,
1:10:35SPEAKERbut it wouldn't be nice to have the monitoring part.
1:10:38SPEAKER- Yeah, and I'll tell you,
1:10:39SPEAKERit's nice to use the smart plug on the PC
1:10:40SPEAKERwhen you're like on vacation
1:10:41SPEAKERand want to have all the draw for your entire desk turned off
1:10:44SPEAKERand stuff like that.
1:10:45SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:10:45SPEAKER- So like I said, I bought a couple of them.
1:10:48SPEAKERI bought a four pack when they were on sale a few years ago
1:10:51SPEAKERand I just bought another four pack the other day.
1:10:54SPEAKERThe ones that I got are the TP-Link, the Tappo P110s.
1:10:58SPEAKER- Okay.
1:10:59SPEAKER- I think they have a matter version as well.
1:11:00SPEAKERIt's the 110M.
1:11:03SPEAKERSorry, the 115s are the wifi,
1:11:05SPEAKERthe 110s M's are the matter ones.
1:11:08SPEAKER- How do you spell Tappo as a T-A-P-O?
1:11:09SPEAKER- T-A-P-O.
1:11:10SPEAKER- TP-Link's weird 'cause they also have the CASA line
1:11:12SPEAKERof smart devices
1:11:13SPEAKERand I think they make smart plugs under both names.
1:11:17SPEAKER- Oh, you know what?
1:11:18SPEAKERI just bought the top Tappos.
1:11:19SPEAKERThe first ones I have are the CASAs.
1:11:21SPEAKER- Okay, yeah, I don't know why they have
1:11:22SPEAKERtwo different lines of smart plugs,
1:11:24SPEAKERbut it doesn't matter
1:11:24SPEAKERbecause the government will ban the sale
1:11:26SPEAKERof those devices soon anyway.
1:11:27SPEAKER- Yeah, so get 'em while you can, I guess.
1:11:29SPEAKER- But yeah, since I kind of standardized on TP-Link
1:11:34SPEAKERsmart plugs since I started buying them
1:11:37SPEAKER'cause I found them to be quite reliable and easy to set up.
1:11:40SPEAKER- They also do power strips
1:11:42SPEAKERthat each individual outlet has controlled.
1:11:45SPEAKER- Man, that's pretty nice too.
1:11:46SPEAKER- They're kind of expensive.
1:11:47SPEAKER- Yeah, yes.
1:11:48SPEAKEREvery time I've looked at those, it was like,
1:11:50SPEAKERah, that's a little more than the convenience would warrant.
1:11:53SPEAKERBut if you're doing the energy monitoring,
1:11:55SPEAKERit's pretty handy, so.
1:11:57SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:11:58SPEAKER- Anyway, I guess that'll do it for us this month
1:12:00SPEAKERor this week, rather.
1:12:02SPEAKER- This was probably a pretty deeply technical episode.
1:12:05SPEAKERHopefully, if you liked it, let us know.
1:12:08SPEAKER- Yeah, and if you didn't, also let us know, I guess.
1:12:10SPEAKER- If you needed a little more context, let us know that too.
1:12:13SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:12:14SPEAKER- You know, when you're deep in the shit,
1:12:15SPEAKERsometimes it just pours out, you know?
1:12:18SPEAKERSometimes you just gotta get in there
1:12:20SPEAKERand talk about the stuff.
1:12:22SPEAKER- Well, so just conceptually,
1:12:25SPEAKERI like showing both the good work and the bad work.
1:12:28SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:12:29SPEAKER- You know, like, we learned how to do this stuff
1:12:32SPEAKER'cause we made mistakes along the way.
1:12:34SPEAKERThe DNS thing going down was a result of me
1:12:37SPEAKERmaking a series of fuck-ups.
1:12:39SPEAKER- Yep, yep, my UPS stuff is kind of similar in some ways.
1:12:42SPEAKERLike, I feel like this, if anything,
1:12:45SPEAKERthis episode is maybe a good object lesson
1:12:46SPEAKERin the ins and outs or rather ups and downs
1:12:49SPEAKERof running a lot of home infrastructure of this type.
1:12:53SPEAKER- Well, yeah, and I think there's a real argument
1:12:56SPEAKERfor sharing the learning.
1:12:58SPEAKERLike, I made the joke about it being a blameless postmortem
1:13:01SPEAKER'cause I'm the only one that cared, really.
1:13:03SPEAKERIt was a minor inconvenience for everybody else in the house
1:13:06SPEAKERbut it's worth thinking about why,
1:13:09SPEAKERwhat happened when this failed
1:13:12SPEAKERand had I gone through and at some point
1:13:13SPEAKERjust unplugged the main, like, so folks know,
1:13:17SPEAKERthe reason it was doing,
1:13:19SPEAKERthe reason I was getting up and down behavior
1:13:24SPEAKERon the primary for the failed hardware
1:13:27SPEAKERis it seems like it was feeding back DNS queries
1:13:30SPEAKERfor stuff it had cached but wasn't going out
1:13:33SPEAKERand getting new DNS information from the broader internet.
1:13:37SPEAKERThat's why some stuff was working and some stuff wasn't.
1:13:39SPEAKERSo if it was in the cache, it was fine
1:13:41SPEAKERand if it wasn't, it just wouldn't work.
1:13:43SPEAKERAnd the eventual solve, I don't think I've actually said this
1:13:46SPEAKERbut I just swapped the card into the secondary one
1:13:49SPEAKERand then plugged it back in and it booted up fine.
1:13:51SPEAKER- Oh yeah, if they're both Py3s, you could just--
1:13:53SPEAKER- Same exact hardware, same, yeah.
1:13:55SPEAKERThis is the benefit of doing both on Py3s, right?
1:13:58SPEAKER- Yeah, that's true, I hadn't thought about that.
1:14:00SPEAKERSome of that caching behavior might also be OS dependent,
1:14:02SPEAKERlike some, depending on the operating system.
1:14:04SPEAKER- That's true.
1:14:05SPEAKER- Some of them cache DNS results in different ways.
1:14:08SPEAKER- That makes sense, true.
1:14:09SPEAKER- For some period of time.
1:14:11SPEAKER- But anyway, yeah, like, you know, we all make mistakes
1:14:15SPEAKERand a lot of times people will hit me with questions
1:14:18SPEAKERor messages on things like,
1:14:20SPEAKERhey, you'd never do something like this.
1:14:21SPEAKERAnd I was like, man, I have absolutely done stuff
1:14:23SPEAKERthat's that stupid or much stupider in many cases.
1:14:26SPEAKER- Yeah, I've rendered our network non-functional
1:14:29SPEAKERthrough similar piehole or blocky in my case issues.
1:14:33SPEAKERI think I talked about this, it was last summer?
1:14:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:14:36SPEAKER- It was like the morning I had a flight
1:14:38SPEAKERwhere I was about to be gone for two and a half weeks,
1:14:40SPEAKERI rendered the entire home network unusable
1:14:43SPEAKERlike an hour before I needed to leave for the airport.
1:14:45SPEAKERAnd I could not strand my girlfriend
1:14:48SPEAKERwithout internet for two weeks.
1:14:49SPEAKER- See, I did that once with plumbing.
1:14:51SPEAKERI was getting ready to go on a trip
1:14:53SPEAKERfor about a week and a half.
1:14:55SPEAKERAnd I trimmed my beard the morning before I left as I do.
1:14:58SPEAKERAnd I was like, oh man, I don't,
1:15:00SPEAKERit's too much of a pain in the ass
1:15:01SPEAKERto get all the beard trimmings out
1:15:03SPEAKERand put them in the trash of the toilet.
1:15:05SPEAKERLike I usually just, I just ran them down the sink.
1:15:07SPEAKERAnd then about three hours after I landed,
1:15:09SPEAKERmy wife was like, hey, was the bathroom sink slow
1:15:11SPEAKERwhen you left?
1:15:12SPEAKERI was like, oh man.
1:15:13SPEAKER- Let me tell you where the sink snake is.
1:15:17SPEAKERAlso plastic semi-disposable sink snakes.
1:15:21SPEAKERIncredible, an incredible, like they cost $1.50 each.
1:15:25SPEAKERIt will save you such a delightful thing
1:15:28SPEAKERto just get in there and just jam through
1:15:31SPEAKERwhatever's clogging up your sink.
1:15:32SPEAKERAnyway, now that the plumbing talk is over,
1:15:37SPEAKERI guess it's time to thank our patrons
1:15:39SPEAKERand remind everybody that this is a patron supported podcast
1:15:41SPEAKERwhere we wouldn't be here without you all.
1:15:42SPEAKERSo thanks everybody.
1:15:44SPEAKER- Thank you.
1:15:45SPEAKER- We are on Patreon.
1:15:48SPEAKERYou can find us at patreon.com/techpod
1:15:50SPEAKERwhere for five bucks a month,
1:15:52SPEAKERyou can support the show and get access to the discord
1:15:55SPEAKERwhere we learn stuff constantly
1:15:57SPEAKERand meet all sorts of interesting people
1:15:58SPEAKERwho have weird and novel computer problems
1:16:01SPEAKERand projects that they're working on
1:16:02SPEAKERand all sorts of fun stuff.
1:16:05SPEAKERAnd you also get access to the patron exclusive episodes
1:16:08SPEAKERwhere you can see the kind of origin story
1:16:12SPEAKERof these kinds of episodes.
1:16:13SPEAKERSo again, it's patreon.com/techpod.
1:16:17SPEAKERWe appreciate everybody's support a ton.
1:16:19SPEAKERIt helps us keep the show going, which we love.
1:16:22SPEAKER- We do.
1:16:23SPEAKER- And we especially appreciate
1:16:24SPEAKERour executive producer tier patrons, including Jason Lee,
1:16:28SPEAKERnextlander.net, comma, it's .com,
1:16:31SPEAKERAndrew Slosky, Jordan Lippett, The Bunny Word Spiral,
1:16:35SPEAKERthat's a Nine Inch Nails reference.
1:16:36SPEAKER- Yeah, sure, I believe that.
1:16:38SPEAKER- David Allen, James Kamik, and Pantheon,
1:16:41SPEAKERmakers of the HS3 high-speed 3D printer.
1:16:43SPEAKERThank you all so much.
1:16:44SPEAKER- Thank you.
1:16:46SPEAKER- We will be back next week
1:16:47SPEAKERwith another edition of the TechPod.
1:16:49SPEAKERI think, is it questions next week?
1:16:50SPEAKEROr we have one more?
1:16:51SPEAKER- Yes, I believe next, well, let me triple check, yep, nope.
1:16:54SPEAKERNext week is, in fact, the last Sunday of the month.
1:16:56SPEAKERAlso, we skipped questions last month.
1:16:58SPEAKER- Oh, we have a double dose of questions.
1:16:59SPEAKER- So we should have plenty to choose from.
1:17:01SPEAKER- Yeah, so--
1:17:02SPEAKER- But don't let that stop you from asking more.
1:17:05SPEAKER- I was gonna say, you can send your emails
1:17:07SPEAKERto techpod@content.town,
1:17:09SPEAKERor you can send your questions in the Discord,
1:17:11SPEAKERif you're in the Discord,
1:17:12SPEAKERto the Question Seeking Answers channel,
1:17:14SPEAKERand we will answer a select number of them
1:17:17SPEAKERon next week's episode.
1:17:18SPEAKERI'm gonna say, we know that we forgot
1:17:21SPEAKERthe Neo Geo Pocket Mini.
1:17:24SPEAKERWe know--
1:17:25SPEAKER- And the regular Neo Geo.
1:17:26SPEAKER- And the regular Neo Geo.
1:17:27SPEAKERIs there anything else we forgot to rank in there?
1:17:31SPEAKER- There was something else somebody brought up.
1:17:33SPEAKERI can't remember what it was.
1:17:33SPEAKERI think somebody mentioned the Sega Master System,
1:17:35SPEAKERbut I don't remember that having--
1:17:37SPEAKER- Well, we'll have to investigate that.
1:17:39SPEAKER- The intro.
1:17:40SPEAKER- Let's see, we didn't do any Linux startup sounds,
1:17:44SPEAKERAdam Patrick Murray.
1:17:45SPEAKER- No.
1:17:46SPEAKER- Nobody cares.
1:17:47SPEAKER- I mean, I care.
1:17:48SPEAKERI'd like to hear them,
1:17:49SPEAKERbut I think that's out of scope for that episode.
1:17:51SPEAKER- They're all user configurable to the point
1:17:52SPEAKERthat I don't think there's any canonical true ones, so.
1:17:55SPEAKER- Also, there are so many desktop environments,
1:17:56SPEAKERlike where do you even start?
1:17:58SPEAKER- Yeah, I'm not, I can't even,
1:18:00SPEAKERI can't, they're not on YouTube.
1:18:02SPEAKERIf they're not on YouTube, they don't count.
1:18:05SPEAKERBut yeah, so if people have questions,
1:18:06SPEAKERif they have feedback, if they have things
1:18:07SPEAKERthat they wanna add or things that they think we got wrong,
1:18:10SPEAKERplease, techpod@content.town
1:18:12SPEAKERor the Question Seeking Answers channel.
1:18:15SPEAKERWe will be back next week with answers
1:18:16SPEAKERto all of your important questions, every single one.
1:18:20SPEAKERBut until then, please, consider the environment
1:18:23SPEAKERbefore printing this podcast.