243: "F***ing Boeing, Holy S***"

00:00SPEAKER- Brad, we've officially gone too far.

00:02SPEAKER- I think that probably goes for a lot

00:03SPEAKERof different categories these days,

00:05SPEAKERbut what do you have in mind?

00:06SPEAKER- Look, I had to get a USB thumb drive,

00:10SPEAKERwhich I haven't, like I don't use it.

00:12SPEAKERI guess I use them to install Linux and stuff,

00:13SPEAKERbut I haven't used one for a while.

00:15SPEAKER- Really?

00:16SPEAKERYou don't keep like a stash ready of known good sticks?

00:19SPEAKER- The stash has waned as I went to fewer

00:22SPEAKERand fewer trade shows over the years, so.

00:24SPEAKER- Trade show USB sticks are not operating system grade

00:27SPEAKERin my experience, to be fair.

00:29SPEAKER- Well, so there's a hit,

00:30SPEAKERlike I have one that Valve gave me a few years ago.

00:32SPEAKERI have a Microsoft one that Windows 7 came on

00:35SPEAKERthat's been pretty good for a long time.

00:37SPEAKER- Occasionally you would get a really nice one

00:39SPEAKERthat actually held up.

00:39SPEAKERLike I have one that is a tiny GTX 1080.

00:43SPEAKER- That's pretty good.

00:44SPEAKER- Like it's 64 gigabytes, which at the time in 2018,

00:48SPEAKERwhenever that was, when did the 1080 come out?

00:50SPEAKER- 2017, 2018, yeah.

00:51SPEAKER- At the time, a free 64 gig USB stick was quite a thing.

00:55SPEAKER- Well, so, and like I have a bunch of old ones

00:58SPEAKERthat I killed using TrueNAS and FreeNAS, right?

01:01SPEAKER- Yes, that will happen.

01:03SPEAKER- I have a 128 gig 3.0 one that I used

01:07SPEAKERfor a really long time,

01:08SPEAKERbut also has all like the Foo files on it,

01:10SPEAKERlike the original source files,

01:12SPEAKER'cause it's how I moved them off of the recording machines.

01:15SPEAKERI had backups other places,

01:16SPEAKERbut I was gonna say,

01:17SPEAKERI hope that's not the only copy of that source file code.

01:19SPEAKER- Doesn't matter.

01:20SPEAKERNo, that's not the code, it's the recordings.

01:23SPEAKER- Oh, okay.

01:25SPEAKER- But like, I don't have a bunch of in-betweens

01:26SPEAKERand I don't have a bunch of USB 3 ones,

01:27SPEAKERbut I only have a couple of USB 3 ones.

01:29SPEAKERSo I had to get a USB 3 thumb drive

01:32SPEAKERthat was greater than 32 gigabytes

01:35SPEAKERand I had to format it with a tool

01:38SPEAKERand then I had to plug it into one specific USB port

01:42SPEAKERin my car and start the car

01:45SPEAKERto update the nav system firmware in the car

01:47SPEAKERso it can switch to getting over the air updates now.

01:50SPEAKER- Okay, there's a lot here.

01:51SPEAKER- I realize, I told you we've gone too far.

01:54SPEAKER- I'm sure like many people out there,

01:56SPEAKERthere's nothing I love more than updating things.

01:58SPEAKER- I love a good firmware update.

01:59SPEAKER- Just the feeling of preparedness that comes

02:02SPEAKERfrom knowing all of your devices are up to date

02:03SPEAKERis better than using the devices I find.

02:06SPEAKER- I'm gonna tell you one of the perks of being unemployed

02:09SPEAKERis that when I look around, I see something I'm like,

02:10SPEAKERyou know, I've checked the firmware on that a while.

02:12SPEAKERI have time to deal with it now.

02:14SPEAKER- All that said, the risk of bricking your sole means

02:17SPEAKERof transportation might be too much.

02:19SPEAKER- Well, so the car works without the nav system.

02:23SPEAKERLike this isn't like a Tesla situation

02:25SPEAKERwhere when I got in the car and started the firmware update,

02:28SPEAKERit turned everything off and the doors wouldn't work anymore.

02:31SPEAKERThis was more of a, hey, we're gonna turn off the music

02:35SPEAKERand you can use the buttons for the air conditioning,

02:37SPEAKERbut you can't turn on the seat chillers

02:40SPEAKERand the rear view camera's not gonna work.

02:42SPEAKER- It's almost like you bought a car from a company

02:44SPEAKERthat has long experience making actual cars.

02:47SPEAKER- Yeah, but so like, and none of the stuff that they added

02:50SPEAKERin the update is like super important stuff,

02:53SPEAKERbut it means now I'll get map updates over the air

02:55SPEAKERovernight occasionally and stuff like that, which is nice,

02:58SPEAKERbut I have to tell you.

02:59SPEAKEROkay, so first off, I put the thumb drive in.

03:01SPEAKERIt was like, hey, do you want to update?

03:02SPEAKERAnd the dialogue was pretty good.

03:04SPEAKERI was like, yeah, sure, okay, let's do this.

03:05SPEAKERAnd it said, hey, you can turn the car off, go away,

03:07SPEAKERwhatever, it's gonna be fine.

03:08SPEAKERIt'll be a while.

03:10SPEAKERAnd I was like, well, I wonder what a while is.

03:11SPEAKERAnd then nothing happened for a really long time,

03:13SPEAKERwhich was unsettling, like 20 minutes.

03:16SPEAKERAnd then I realized that there was a,

03:17SPEAKERI sent you some pictures, I think,

03:19SPEAKERand then I realized that there was actually a progress bar

03:22SPEAKERthat was underneath the words on the picture.

03:24SPEAKEROh, that's almost impossible to see even in these photos.

03:27SPEAKERIn the bright light, it was impossible to see.

03:30SPEAKEREven though the rest of this display is quite easy.

03:33SPEAKEROh, that's a bit nerve wracking.

03:34SPEAKERSo all told, it took about an hour

03:37SPEAKERto install the firmware update.

03:38SPEAKERIt was like 40 gigs.

03:40SPEAKERIt was bigger than 32 gigs.

03:42SPEAKERI was gonna ask like.

03:43SPEAKERWhat's map data?

03:44SPEAKEROh, sure.

03:45SPEAKERFor the entire continental US.

03:46SPEAKERI was gonna say like binary,

03:47SPEAKERlike executable firmware type stuff,

03:49SPEAKERusually pretty small, but that makes sense.

03:51SPEAKERYeah, so they're copying over a buttload of like,

03:54SPEAKERhey, every Starbucks that's changed locations

03:57SPEAKERin the continental US,

03:59SPEAKERmaybe all of North America, I don't know.

04:02SPEAKERI got patch notes at the end.

04:04SPEAKERI wonder what kind of storage is in your car,

04:06SPEAKERboth capacity and then also like medium.

04:08SPEAKERIt's probably some kind of flash,

04:10SPEAKERsome kind of like fairly resilient flash memory.

04:13SPEAKERYeah, like there's a whole industry

04:15SPEAKERof automotive grade computer components.

04:17SPEAKERSo I assume it's like a 256 gig automotive grade SSD

04:21SPEAKERis designed to work up to like 160 degrees Fahrenheit

04:23SPEAKERor something.

04:24SPEAKERSure.

04:25SPEAKERYou got patch notes.

04:26SPEAKERI got patch notes for the car.

04:29SPEAKERNow, when I drive through a tunnel,

04:31SPEAKERif the previously, when I drove through a tunnel,

04:32SPEAKERif the window, if we drove through a tunnel,

04:35SPEAKERit would close the outdoor air return.

04:38SPEAKERSo it goes on internally.

04:39SPEAKERSo you don't get tunnel smell in the car.

04:41SPEAKERWow.

04:42SPEAKERWhich is nice.

04:43SPEAKEROkay.

04:43SPEAKERNow, if the windows are open, when you approach a tunnel,

04:46SPEAKERit'll roll up the windows for you.

04:48SPEAKERI'm up and down on that one.

04:49SPEAKERI'm not so sure.

04:51SPEAKERWhat if your arm is just hanging out the window?

04:53SPEAKERThere's a safety on modern cars.

04:55SPEAKERSo your arm doesn't get cut off.

04:57SPEAKERAll right.

04:58SPEAKERThat was a threat our parents told us when,

05:00SPEAKERfor people who don't know, in the old days,

05:01SPEAKERyou had to have a hand crank

05:02SPEAKERto crank up the window of the car.

05:04SPEAKERMy car still has a hand crank.

05:06SPEAKERIt's hard to chop your arm off with that.

05:08SPEAKERWhen we got a car with motors.

05:10SPEAKERI know.

05:11SPEAKERI got the, for my mom,

05:14SPEAKERdon't stick your arm out there when you're rolling it up,

05:16SPEAKERyou'll cut your arm off.

05:17SPEAKERI don't think that ever actually happened to anybody.

05:19SPEAKERYeah, well, their generation also

05:21SPEAKERdidn't want to wear seat belts.

05:22SPEAKERSo what do they know?

05:23SPEAKERVery true.

05:24SPEAKERThe best part of this,

05:25SPEAKERthe number four bullet point on this

05:28SPEAKERwas introducing "Sounds of Nature 3,"

05:32SPEAKERcurated by Jung-Jae Il,

05:35SPEAKERthe acclaimed music director

05:36SPEAKERbehind the hits "Parasite" and "Squid Game."

05:38SPEAKERExperienced new soundtracks for all four seasons,

05:41SPEAKERincluding "Harbingers of Spring,"

05:44SPEAKER"A Summer Night's Rest," "Autumn Sentiments,"

05:46SPEAKERand "Warmth in Winter."

05:47SPEAKERWhile driving, enjoyed the changing seasons

05:50SPEAKERwith these evocative soundscapes.

05:51SPEAKERWhat triggers those?

05:53SPEAKERThey're ambient.

05:56SPEAKERThey're like chill vibes to drive to options

06:00SPEAKERin the media UI.

06:03SPEAKERBut you just pull them up automatically?

06:05SPEAKER'Cause normally it's radio,

06:07SPEAKEReither terrestrial or satellite,

06:08SPEAKERand then like your phone, right?

06:09SPEAKERLike those are the sources of music.

06:11SPEAKERLike just having them built into the car is a little odd.

06:14SPEAKERYeah, it's just data, man.

06:16SPEAKERYeah, that's cool.

06:17SPEAKERYeah, so that's it.

06:18SPEAKERI'm gonna jam out to some "Sounds of Nature 3."

06:21SPEAKERI guess next time I get in the car.

06:23SPEAKERYou've completed a progress bar

06:24SPEAKERand now you're ready to drive.

06:26SPEAKER(upbeat music)

06:51SPEAKER(upbeat music)

06:54SPEAKERWelcome to "Brad and Will Made a Tech Bot."

06:56SPEAKERI'm Will.

06:57SPEAKERI'm Brad, hello.

06:58SPEAKERHi, hello, hi, hi, hello.

06:59SPEAKERGreetings, like 6 p.m. on a Friday.

07:02SPEAKERI know, this is a weird time to record.

07:03SPEAKERMy voice is weird.

07:05SPEAKEREnd of week podcast.

07:06SPEAKERHaving unseasonable allergies here,

07:08SPEAKERwhich is like, I don't know.

07:11SPEAKERI took a COVID test the other day

07:12SPEAKER'cause I thought I had the 'rona again

07:13SPEAKERand my allergies have been so bad

07:15SPEAKERand it's such a weird time for it.

07:17SPEAKERThose are some intense allergies.

07:18SPEAKERSo apologies if my voice is weird.

07:21SPEAKERBut, so this week we're doing something that,

07:23SPEAKERwe've done this before.

07:25SPEAKERThere were three things that we thought were interesting.

07:27SPEAKERWe didn't think we could get a full episode

07:29SPEAKERout of any of them,

07:30SPEAKERbut we wanted to talk about them

07:31SPEAKER'cause they're either interesting

07:32SPEAKERfrom a pure schadenfreude side.

07:36SPEAKERThey're interesting 'cause space is cool.

07:40SPEAKERTrying to figure out like,

07:40SPEAKERI feel like schadenfreude could be involved

07:43SPEAKERin any of these, any and all of these three, but.

07:46SPEAKERI think two more than the third.

07:48SPEAKERUh-huh, sure, yes.

07:50SPEAKERBut anyway, we're gonna talk about

07:51SPEAKERkind of three things that are happening right now.

07:53SPEAKERWe've done a fair amount of reading and learning.

07:56SPEAKERThe first one is the Boeing Starliner stranded

08:00SPEAKERon the space station.

08:02SPEAKERThey're just stuck there.

08:03SPEAKERWe'll talk about that.

08:05SPEAKERNext is one that we have titled What's Up with AI?

08:11SPEAKERAnd two things happened this week.

08:12SPEAKERMicrosoft and Apple have left the OpenAI board.

08:15SPEAKERAnd last week there was this Goldman Sachs AI report

08:19SPEAKERthat it was not real good for the AI people.

08:23SPEAKER- Kind of scathing?

08:24SPEAKER- Yeah, and then the third one is that at Windows 10,

08:26SPEAKERif you haven't heard, next October,

08:29SPEAKERyou're not gonna get any more security updates

08:30SPEAKERfor Windows 10 ever again for Microsoft, probably.

08:33SPEAKERMaybe, asterisk.

08:35SPEAKER- Yes, I think we've gotten some questions

08:37SPEAKERabout this here and there,

08:38SPEAKERbut also just like what's the state of Windows

08:40SPEAKERand should I continue when running Windows

08:42SPEAKERhas been a frequent topic of conversation recently.

08:46SPEAKERSo I thought we might address this one.

08:48SPEAKER- Well, and the Windows 10 EOS end of service

08:52SPEAKERis what EOS stands for,

08:53SPEAKERis more important than usual for Windows updates

08:57SPEAKERbecause the upgrade requirements to go from Windows 10

09:00SPEAKERto Windows 11 are higher than ever before

09:03SPEAKERand have some binary either you have to have this

09:06SPEAKERor it's just not gonna work kind of requirements.

09:09SPEAKERSo anyway, let's start with the Boeing.

09:13SPEAKER- Sure.

09:14SPEAKER- Boeing's had a great year.

09:15SPEAKERI was gonna say this is something different

09:19SPEAKERto talk about Boeing being in the news

09:20SPEAKERfor somewhat slightly less deadly.

09:24SPEAKER- They haven't killed anybody with this one yet.

09:26SPEAKERHopefully, no deaths with this.

09:27SPEAKERWe love both of the people involved in this.

09:29SPEAKER- Yes, yes, hopefully not.

09:32SPEAKER- But yeah, the Starliner has been stuck in the ISS

09:34SPEAKERfor a few weeks now.

09:37SPEAKERThis is the first crewed flight of the Boeing Starliner.

09:40SPEAKERIt's a reusable craft designed to bring crew, not cargo,

09:44SPEAKERto LEO, Low Earth Orbit.

09:46SPEAKER- Yeah, I kind of had a lot going on recently.

09:49SPEAKERI had kind of completely missed the story,

09:51SPEAKERbut also just kind of didn't know anything

09:52SPEAKERabout Starliner in general.

09:54SPEAKERI feel like SpaceX kind of just dominates

09:56SPEAKERall of the commercial space flight news these days.

09:59SPEAKERLike it's hard to remember

10:00SPEAKERthat the big old aerospace companies like Boeing

10:02SPEAKERare even in that market

10:03SPEAKERand there's also upstart competitors like Blue Origin

10:06SPEAKERthat you kind of don't think about either.

10:07SPEAKERIt's just kind of all SpaceX all the time,

10:10SPEAKERwhether that's because they're running the most tests

10:12SPEAKERand flights right now or because of Elon Musk's

10:14SPEAKERshitty antics or both, I don't know.

10:16SPEAKER- I think it's just volume.

10:18SPEAKERLike they've launched,

10:19SPEAKERthey're launching so many SpaceX flights

10:22SPEAKERthat like they've run out of customers

10:23SPEAKERfor SpaceX flights at this point.

10:25SPEAKERAnd like that is a business threat for them.

10:28SPEAKER- Yes, but yeah, this is just for crew.

10:30SPEAKERThis is just for transporting human beings

10:31SPEAKERinto orbit and back.

10:32SPEAKERNot like, 'cause I feel like reusable,

10:34SPEAKERlike cargo flights are the big hot thing.

10:37SPEAKER- Well, the Dragon, the crew, the cargo Dragon

10:39SPEAKERhas been running for a really long time now.

10:41SPEAKERThis is all part of the NASA post shuttle initiative

10:44SPEAKERto not have to rely on Russians

10:46SPEAKERto get stuff to the space station.

10:47SPEAKER- Yes, there's a name for that.

10:49SPEAKERI'm gonna, commercial crew program.

10:50SPEAKERThat's I believe the NASA CCP.

10:53SPEAKER- Well, commercial crew is just for the person to flights,

10:57SPEAKERbut commercial space flight initiatives are a larger thing.

10:59SPEAKER- That's right, that's right.

11:00SPEAKERThis Boeing flight is part of the CCP.

11:03SPEAKER- Yeah, and I think the idea is that the space station

11:07SPEAKERand other servicing missions move into commercial domain

11:11SPEAKERso that NASA proper can focus on moon and Mars and beyond.

11:15SPEAKERSo anyway, they launched the first crewed flight,

11:19SPEAKERwhich was originally scheduled for seven years ago.

11:21SPEAKER2017, a big year this episode, I think.

11:24SPEAKER- I pulled up a little history on this thing.

11:26SPEAKERYes, there have been two unmanned test flights

11:29SPEAKERof this thing previously.

11:30SPEAKERThis is the first, sorry, uncrewed.

11:33SPEAKERThis is the first one that I've had that had people on it

11:35SPEAKERand it turned out to not go exactly according to plan,

11:39SPEAKERbut yes, literally like seven years ago,

11:41SPEAKERthis crewed flight was originally scheduled to go.

11:45SPEAKERI'm sure the pandemic had something to do with that,

11:47SPEAKERbut also it's just been a lot of delays.

11:49SPEAKER- Space flight, crewed space flight is hard, right?

11:52SPEAKERLike this is, sending people to space is hard.

11:57SPEAKERThey've been stranded up for the last few weeks

11:58SPEAKERon the space station.

11:59SPEAKERThere's plenty of food.

12:00SPEAKERThat's the first question I think everybody

12:01SPEAKERalways asks about this.

12:02SPEAKERThere's always multiple months of food left

12:04SPEAKERon the space station.

12:05SPEAKERThey're always good to go.

12:06SPEAKER- Yes, I figured it's not, I mean, like I said,

12:09SPEAKERI have not really caught up on this or heard much about it.

12:11SPEAKERAnd I have to assume, you know,

12:12SPEAKERit's not exactly like an Apollo 13 situation.

12:14SPEAKER- No, no, no.

12:15SPEAKER- Because it has not been like dire, you know,

12:18SPEAKERheadlines in the news every day.

12:20SPEAKER- Honestly, it's really, it's kind of interesting

12:23SPEAKERthat we're at a place where we can test a new

12:26SPEAKERperson rated space flight system.

12:29SPEAKERAnd it's not like, like it wasn't news at all.

12:32SPEAKER- Right. - Right.

12:34SPEAKER- Also, also as far as them being stuck on the ISS,

12:37SPEAKERI'm trying to find right now,

12:38SPEAKERI don't know if I can find like an up to the minute count,

12:40SPEAKERbut I assume there are a decent number of other people

12:42SPEAKERon the ISS as we speak.

12:43SPEAKER- Yeah, the crew, so the limit on the ISS is always

12:46SPEAKERhow many, how much evacuation space you have.

12:50SPEAKERLike there's, there's more space for people to live

12:53SPEAKERthan there is evacuation space generally.

12:56SPEAKER- Okay.

12:57SPEAKER- So usually I think, I think there's usually a Soyuz

12:59SPEAKERand there's usually a Crew Dragon or two attached

13:02SPEAKERto the space station right now.

13:03SPEAKER- I was going to say in a, in a very cramped limited

13:07SPEAKERand living environment like that,

13:08SPEAKERevacuation could have multiple meanings.

13:11SPEAKER- Well.

13:11SPEAKER- You're talking about, you're talking about the emergency,

13:13SPEAKERget off the station.

13:15SPEAKER- Yes.

13:15SPEAKER- Tie type.

13:16SPEAKER- There's a Russian bathroom.

13:17SPEAKERI think there's a, at least one, a US bathroom.

13:20SPEAKERI think there might be two US bathrooms now,

13:22SPEAKERI can't remember, but it's,

13:24SPEAKERso having walked around the floor model, like in Houston,

13:29SPEAKERthey have this big giant, like scale model

13:33SPEAKERthat you can walk around inside of the space station.

13:37SPEAKERIt's not got, it's not like, it's not like,

13:40SPEAKERthere's not like doors and stuff.

13:41SPEAKERIt has pictures of the inside of the capsules on the walls.

13:45SPEAKERSo you see where everything is,

13:46SPEAKERyou see where like the sleeping cabinets

13:48SPEAKERand all that stuff are, but you can't,

13:50SPEAKERyou obviously like there's not microscopes

13:52SPEAKERand telescopes and stuff hanging out of the side

13:54SPEAKERof this thing.

13:54SPEAKER- But you get a sense of how big or small it is.

13:57SPEAKER- It's freaking like, okay.

13:59SPEAKERWhen you're walking around in a big giant hangar in Houston,

14:01SPEAKERyou can kind of step from one module to the next outside.

14:04SPEAKERIt feels enormous.

14:06SPEAKERWhen it's the place that you're gonna live

14:07SPEAKERfor the next six months,

14:08SPEAKERit probably feels a little bit smaller.

14:10SPEAKERMy guess is that they test people for claustrophobia,

14:13SPEAKERlike that kind of, that specific kind of claustrophobia

14:15SPEAKERbefore you get stationed on the space station for six months.

14:18SPEAKER- Sure.

14:19SPEAKER- But it's like, it's roomy.

14:21SPEAKERIt's not like you're in a one bedroom,

14:23SPEAKER600 square foot apartment.

14:24SPEAKERIt's big.

14:26SPEAKER- And is any one given room pretty spacious?

14:29SPEAKERI mean, I know you can say like, oh, the whole thing,

14:30SPEAKERthere's like quite a bit of square footage

14:32SPEAKERor whatever the metric is there.

14:34SPEAKERBut I mean, like any one room you're in,

14:36SPEAKERlike, is it like very low ceilings or do you,

14:38SPEAKERdoes it feel spacious just in your immediate surroundings?

14:41SPEAKER- You're floating, right?

14:42SPEAKER- So I know that I just, but still just like, you know,

14:44SPEAKERlike can you, can you extend your arms to both sides

14:46SPEAKERand like touch the walls or is it, is it,

14:48SPEAKERis it kind of more cavernous than that?

14:50SPEAKER- I'm trying to think it's, that would be at the edge.

14:53SPEAKERI think, I think you want, you kind of,

14:54SPEAKERwhen you're in zero microgravity,

14:57SPEAKERyou kind of want that, right?

14:58SPEAKER- Yeah, you probably want a lot of surfaces to push off of.

15:00SPEAKER- Well, because you can get stuck.

15:02SPEAKER- Yeah.

15:03SPEAKER- If you're in the middle with no momentum,

15:04SPEAKERyou're going to need somebody to come grab you

15:06SPEAKERand push you in.

15:07SPEAKERThey actually did, there's a video on YouTube

15:09SPEAKERof them positioning somebody in a place

15:11SPEAKERwhere they can't grab anything and they can't swim

15:13SPEAKERbecause that's, that's BS.

15:15SPEAKERIt doesn't, A, the air is thin on the space station

15:18SPEAKERand B, like you don't get enough resistance

15:20SPEAKERto do that anyway.

15:21SPEAKERSo you could literally get stuck in the middle of the,

15:23SPEAKERof the open void.

15:25SPEAKERThat's why you don't want a big,

15:26SPEAKERgiant open room in microgravity.

15:27SPEAKER- Sure.

15:28SPEAKERI mean, I don't, I could just sit here asking questions

15:30SPEAKERall episode long.

15:32SPEAKERHow do they, how do they do like the oxygen CO2 exchange?

15:34SPEAKERLike do they straight up use plants or like what's the?

15:38SPEAKER- So they have, there's multiple systems in, in play.

15:43SPEAKERThe main thing is that they don't,

15:44SPEAKERthey do a real low oxygen that it's real low pressure,

15:47SPEAKERhigh oxygen environment.

15:48SPEAKERSo they don't have to pressurize it to full atmosphere.

15:51SPEAKERIt's like four tens of an atmosphere or something.

15:52SPEAKERI think, I don't remember the exact numbers.

15:54SPEAKER- Interesting.

15:55SPEAKER- Right now, listeners are yelling at their,

15:56SPEAKERat their radios.

15:58SPEAKERSo I didn't expect to talk about this, but yeah,

16:00SPEAKERit's low and then they filter out there.

16:03SPEAKERSo they have both chemical filters.

16:05SPEAKERThey don't have plants or there are plants,

16:08SPEAKERbut they're not using plants directly for oxygen,

16:10SPEAKERcarbon dioxide extension.

16:12SPEAKER- I think that would scale very well.

16:14SPEAKER- Yeah.

16:14SPEAKERI think that my recollection is that the main thing

16:18SPEAKERthat they use is a lithium,

16:20SPEAKERsome lithium reaction that they can reverse by heating up

16:24SPEAKERthe filter, the medium and releasing the carbon dioxide

16:29SPEAKERand reuse the filters.

16:30SPEAKERAnd I think they vent the carbon dioxide restored.

16:32SPEAKERI don't know what they do with it.

16:34SPEAKERBut anyway, the upshot is with the Starliner

16:39SPEAKERthat they were both thruster issues.

16:41SPEAKERAnd then there were also some helium leaks,

16:42SPEAKERthe helium they used to pressurize some fuel systems.

16:46SPEAKERThe thruster issues were more immediate concern

16:49SPEAKERbecause when they were coming in to dock

16:50SPEAKERwith the space station,

16:51SPEAKERthey lost five of the reaction control system thrusters.

16:55SPEAKERThese are the little ones that make the little puffs.

16:58SPEAKERThey have a little maneuvering.

16:59SPEAKER- Yeah, like you played Kerbal,

17:00SPEAKERyou know that these are the ones you use

17:01SPEAKERto aim your stuff around when you're in microgravity.

17:06SPEAKERThey overheated and lost thrust and had to be turned off.

17:10SPEAKERFour of them later recovered, but not at full power.

17:14SPEAKERI think I wrote seems like the,

17:16SPEAKERand then I didn't finish that thought.

17:17SPEAKERSo I don't remember what I was gonna write there.

17:18SPEAKERBut the part of the issue is that these thrusters

17:25SPEAKERare on the service module, which is jettisoned

17:28SPEAKERand burns up in the atmosphere on return.

17:31SPEAKERSo in order for them to continue troubleshooting

17:35SPEAKERand testing and seeing,

17:36SPEAKERlike once they deorbit the spacecraft

17:39SPEAKERand the astronauts come back to earth,

17:41SPEAKERthey can't get any more data,

17:42SPEAKERwhich is the thing that seems like

17:43SPEAKERthey're more concerned about.

17:45SPEAKERThe vibe that NASA and Boeing are giving out here

17:49SPEAKERis very much, hey, everything's cool,

17:52SPEAKERthe astronauts are fine, no danger to the craft,

17:55SPEAKERbut if we deorbit this, then we lose our ability

17:58SPEAKERto find out more stuff about why this happened.

18:00SPEAKER- Yeah, that was the key detail in reading this

18:02SPEAKERthat made me go, oh, okay, this is why the reporting

18:05SPEAKERhas not been especially breathless about this.

18:06SPEAKERIt's not like they're stuck stuck,

18:08SPEAKERit's that they just are taking their time

18:10SPEAKERto try to diagnose this problem while they still can.

18:13SPEAKER- The other thing, and it's unclear to me

18:15SPEAKERhow many seats are available.

18:17SPEAKERThere's a Crew Dragon on the station right now.

18:20SPEAKERThere's another one scheduled for mid-August.

18:23SPEAKERSo presumably that holds four people,

18:25SPEAKERpresumably if they need to return people earlier,

18:28SPEAKERor they need to, this isn't going to be safe

18:30SPEAKERfor humans to return with,

18:32SPEAKERthey'll send up the August Crew Dragon

18:34SPEAKERwith two fewer people on it.

18:36SPEAKER- Right.

18:36SPEAKER- And then there'll be two more seats

18:37SPEAKERthat are safe for return.

18:39SPEAKER- Yeah, you don't want to burn any of your known good

18:42SPEAKERreturn craft if you don't have to.

18:44SPEAKER- Yeah.

18:45SPEAKER- And then be stuck with just a problematic

18:48SPEAKERtest flight only craft of indeterminate issues.

18:54SPEAKER- You can help it.

18:55SPEAKER- Yeah, so there's 12 people on the station right now.

18:58SPEAKER- Oh, that's more than I thought.

19:00SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a lot.

19:02SPEAKER- I think I've seen usually averages like seven.

19:06SPEAKER- Well, there's three on the Chinese station, Tiangong.

19:09SPEAKER- Oh, okay, maybe that's why.

19:10SPEAKER- And there's nine on ISS right now.

19:13SPEAKER- Got it.

19:14SPEAKER- But so we have three people on a Soyuz,

19:17SPEAKERfour people came up on SpaceX Crew 8,

19:20SPEAKERand the two people on the Starliner.

19:26SPEAKERSo anyway, they're doing thruster testing

19:31SPEAKERand they burned them a couple of times.

19:33SPEAKERSeems like the issues have been somewhat resolved,

19:36SPEAKERbut who knows what the problems are

19:38SPEAKERthat it seems like it has to do with overheating

19:39SPEAKERand the design on the craft.

19:41SPEAKERMaybe, horrifyingly enough, they need a firmware update

19:45SPEAKERfor the software because the thrusters were firing

19:48SPEAKERwith higher frequency.

19:50SPEAKER- Well, somebody's just gonna have to ferry up

19:51SPEAKERa larger than 32 gigabyte USB stick.

19:54SPEAKER- Exactly, exactly.

19:57SPEAKERBut yeah, so Steve Stitch, rather,

20:00SPEAKERwho's the NASA Commercial Crew Program Manager,

20:03SPEAKERhas said multiple times, the last quote from him

20:06SPEAKERseemed to have real like, hey, I'm tired of talking

20:09SPEAKERabout this 'cause it's just the same thing.

20:11SPEAKERWe have to figure out what the issues are all the way

20:13SPEAKERthrough before we deorbit the service module.

20:18SPEAKERAnd they're hoping to wrap up the investigation,

20:21SPEAKERwhich includes more ground simulation

20:23SPEAKERof the similar thrusters next week,

20:25SPEAKERwhich would be the week of the 15th, I think, July 15th.

20:31SPEAKERStarliner lands on land.

20:33SPEAKERI didn't know this.

20:34SPEAKER- Yeah, I didn't realize any of these things did that.

20:38SPEAKERI mean, obviously like the space shuttle landed

20:40SPEAKERon a runway, right?

20:41SPEAKER- Well, the Soyuz lands on land.

20:42SPEAKER- Oh, does it?

20:43SPEAKER- Yeah, it has retro rockets that fire at the last second

20:45SPEAKERthat give you, by all reports, a really, really hard impact,

20:50SPEAKERlike a small car crash.

20:51SPEAKER- That's exactly it.

20:52SPEAKERI just assumed a water landing was just so much easier

20:55SPEAKERin terms of the impact.

20:56SPEAKERManage that, why would anybody bother with a land landing?

21:01SPEAKER- I think when you want to do something reusable,

21:03SPEAKERit's a little harder, right?

21:04SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess not everybody has an aircraft carrier

21:08SPEAKERto go retrieve things.

21:11SPEAKEREverybody does not have the unlimited resources

21:13SPEAKERof the United States government and military

21:14SPEAKERat their disposal.

21:15SPEAKER- Exactly.

21:17SPEAKERYeah, anyway, Starliner, the ticking clock right now

21:22SPEAKERis that the Starliner batteries are rated for 45 days,

21:25SPEAKERwhich ends on the 20th of July.

21:28SPEAKERIt seems like they're likely to stay beyond that time

21:31SPEAKERat this point, and they do have to get the ship clear

21:36SPEAKERin order to launch that Crew Dragon mission,

21:39SPEAKER'cause it's on the same port

21:40SPEAKERthat the Starliner's on right now.

21:42SPEAKERI wonder what the dead batteries mean for its ability

21:46SPEAKERto disembark, I assume not much,

21:48SPEAKERwhere they would be sweating that deadline a lot more.

21:51SPEAKER- So the batteries, it's about when they're rated for,

21:53SPEAKERnot necessarily when they're still good.

21:55SPEAKERLike this is, we over-engineer things situation generally.

22:00SPEAKERThey had this, remember they had this,

22:02SPEAKERwhen they were doing the SLS launch a couple months ago,

22:05SPEAKERthere was a battery issue

22:07SPEAKERbecause the booster had stayed on the pad for so long

22:10SPEAKERthat they thought they were gonna have to come

22:11SPEAKERand disassemble the entire thing potentially

22:13SPEAKERif they missed a final window or something.

22:15SPEAKERSo it seems like the feeling I got from that,

22:22SPEAKERand I don't know if this is correct or not,

22:23SPEAKERpeople in, again, people are yelling at the radio,

22:26SPEAKERis that it's more of a, hey, we wouldn't launch

22:28SPEAKERif this was beyond the window than a,

22:30SPEAKERwe won't de-orbit the thing.

22:33SPEAKERLike they'll be able to look at the numbers and see.

22:35SPEAKER- Sure, I wonder if they're able to power some systems down

22:38SPEAKERto extend that duration.

22:41SPEAKER- I think it's about chemistry in the batteries

22:43SPEAKERis the feeling I always got, but I don't know for sure.

22:46SPEAKERSo anyway, yeah, everything seems fine.

22:50SPEAKERIs the TLDR for right now.

22:52SPEAKERIf they are worried that it's not gonna be safe for people,

22:54SPEAKERthen they have the Crew Dragon.

22:57SPEAKERAnd this is almost certainly gonna delay

22:59SPEAKERthe first real mission for the Starliner,

23:01SPEAKERwhich was currently scheduled for early next year.

23:04SPEAKERAnd seems like bad news for Boeing.

23:06SPEAKER- Yeah, now it'll be like 2030.

23:08SPEAKER- Yeah.

23:09SPEAKER- Man, fucking Boeing, holy shit.

23:13SPEAKER- Fucking Boeing, holy shit is-

23:15SPEAKER- That should be the title of this episode.

23:17SPEAKER- That's the title of their annual report this year.

23:18SPEAKER- Like, man, didn't I say the Justice Department

23:22SPEAKERjust like ruled them open to criminal prosecution

23:24SPEAKERor something like that?

23:25SPEAKER- For the 737 MAX stuff, yeah.

23:27SPEAKER- Right, yeah, it is bad news.

23:29SPEAKERI explicitly avoided booking a ticket on a MAX recently.

23:33SPEAKER- I mean, I don't think that's a bad choice necessarily.

23:37SPEAKER- Like they claim to have corrected the software problems

23:39SPEAKERthat led to those crashes a few years ago.

23:41SPEAKER- Yeah.

23:42SPEAKER- But those are also the planes

23:43SPEAKERthat they keep running stories about like,

23:44SPEAKERoh, the rivets missing on this one and like-

23:46SPEAKER- The bolt holding the plug

23:48SPEAKERwhere the escape hatch usually is, we're off, yeah.

23:52SPEAKER- And that's what the whistleblowers are coming out saying,

23:53SPEAKERlike, hey, like parts that did not pass safety inspections

23:58SPEAKERwere still in the production line

24:00SPEAKERwhen I was there type stuff.

24:01SPEAKER- Almost like unrestrained capitalism is a mistake.

24:04SPEAKER- The thing that really pushed me over the edge

24:06SPEAKERis one of the production managers on that project,

24:09SPEAKERhe was literally like a lead on the MAX project

24:12SPEAKERand also like a 30-year Navy veteran before that.

24:15SPEAKERSo probably like pretty serious about vehicular safety,

24:18SPEAKERleft Boeing over concerns about the safety issues

24:21SPEAKERhe was seeing on the production line

24:23SPEAKERand the management kind of freezing him out

24:25SPEAKERwhen he was trying to raise these issues with them.

24:27SPEAKERLike he now runs like an advocacy group

24:30SPEAKERadvocating against this airliner

24:32SPEAKERand he refuses to fly on them himself.

24:34SPEAKERAnd I'm like, all right,

24:35SPEAKERall the people who built this airplane

24:36SPEAKERrefuses to fly on that airplane.

24:37SPEAKERI don't feel quite that paranoid about it myself.

24:40SPEAKER- Yep, so anyway, yeah, Boeing.

24:44SPEAKER- I jotted a question at the end of this,

24:46SPEAKERjust kind of general space travel, space flight question

24:50SPEAKERthat I wanted an answer to.

24:51SPEAKERWhat happens to the rocket or booster stages

24:54SPEAKERthat are jettisoned into the ocean?

24:55SPEAKERI came to mind because I was reading

24:58SPEAKERabout the land landing of this capsule,

25:00SPEAKERbut there are parts of this that end up in the ocean

25:02SPEAKERlike most other launches and they all just sink

25:06SPEAKERto the bottom and that's it, like there is zero.

25:08SPEAKER- Generally speaking, yeah, there's been some exceptions.

25:11SPEAKERThe space shuttle solid rocket boosters got fished out.

25:13SPEAKER- Okay, that must be, I think that must be

25:15SPEAKERwhat I was thinking of.

25:16SPEAKERI was remembering hearing in the '80s and '90s

25:18SPEAKERabout them retrieving those and reusing them.

25:21SPEAKER- Well, but then also SpaceX, of course,

25:23SPEAKERlands the boosters a fair amount of the time

25:25SPEAKERif the mission profile allows for it, right?

25:27SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:28SPEAKERI specifically meant the stuff that lands in the ocean,

25:30SPEAKERjust the parts of the rocket boosters that are just,

25:34SPEAKERyou see all the classic old footage of Apollo

25:37SPEAKERwith the stage detaching and falling back to Earth.

25:40SPEAKER- Yep, and then it just burns up or falls to pieces

25:43SPEAKERor splashes down in the ocean.

25:44SPEAKERHopefully you're not in a boat under there.

25:49SPEAKERHey, Brad, what's up with AI?

25:51SPEAKER- I don't know, man.

25:53SPEAKERSometimes I wring my hands about how much

25:55SPEAKERwe should continue talking about AI.

25:56SPEAKERI worry people are gonna get tired of hearing about it,

25:58SPEAKERbut when it's a story like this.

26:01SPEAKER- I worry less.

26:02SPEAKER- I think there's some meat to sink our teeth into here.

26:04SPEAKER- Yeah.

26:05SPEAKER- 'Cause it feels like the worm is turning a bit.

26:08SPEAKER- I mean, I said this on the PC World podcast

26:10SPEAKERa few weeks ago, but it feels to me

26:12SPEAKERlike we've reached the peak of inflated expectations

26:14SPEAKERon the Gartner hype cycle and we're heading

26:16SPEAKERtoward the trough of despair real fast.

26:19SPEAKERIt was around the time Google launched

26:22SPEAKERtheir AI-assisted search and then immediately

26:25SPEAKERpulled support for it like three days later

26:26SPEAKER'cause it sucked so bad.

26:28SPEAKER- Yeah.

26:28SPEAKERAlso, can I just interject here?

26:30SPEAKER- Yes.

26:31SPEAKER- I just looked up the phrase the worm turns.

26:34SPEAKER- Yes.

26:35SPEAKER- I never realized that it does denote

26:37SPEAKERa sudden change in the situation,

26:38SPEAKERbut specifically one where you go from like

26:40SPEAKERa position of weakness to a position of strength.

26:42SPEAKER- I've never heard that term before.

26:44SPEAKER- Is it a worm gear?

26:45SPEAKERIs that what it's talking about?

26:46SPEAKER- I have no idea what the origin is.

26:47SPEAKERLike you never heard like the worm has turned.

26:49SPEAKER- Oh.

26:51SPEAKER- To imply that something, some profound change

26:54SPEAKERhas happened in a situation.

26:56SPEAKER- Okay.

26:56SPEAKER- After I said it, I second guessed myself.

26:58SPEAKERSee, I could have cut that out when I got it wrong,

27:00SPEAKERbut instead I was like, why don't I-

27:02SPEAKER- Just dig in.

27:03SPEAKER- Why don't I communicate this information

27:05SPEAKERto other people who might not know?

27:07SPEAKERUsed to talk about how a situation can suddenly change

27:09SPEAKERso that a person who has been weak, unlucky,

27:11SPEAKERunsuccessful, et cetera, can become strong,

27:13SPEAKERlucky, unsuccessful, et cetera.

27:15SPEAKER- Have you-

27:16SPEAKER- I didn't realize it was specifically a bad, too good.

27:19SPEAKER- I wonder if this is a regional thing.

27:22SPEAKER- Maybe.

27:23SPEAKER- Have you done that new, the New York Times,

27:25SPEAKERlike, hey, where do you live, local, ghost study thing

27:28SPEAKERthat they released in 2013?

27:30SPEAKER- Yes, I think I did, and I think it was pretty accurate.

27:32SPEAKER- We did that, so I did it back in the time,

27:34SPEAKERback in the day when it came out and it was going around.

27:36SPEAKERAnd then we did it a couple of weeks ago with my daughter

27:38SPEAKERwho's lived her entire life in California,

27:40SPEAKERbut has parents from Northeast Tennessee.

27:42SPEAKER- Oh, interesting.

27:43SPEAKER- And yeah, it was, it was fascinating

27:45SPEAKER'cause it like locked her in to Santa Clara.

27:48SPEAKER- Really? - Yeah.

27:49SPEAKER- Like no, no, no Southeastern influence whatsoever?

27:53SPEAKER- There were darker patches around,

27:55SPEAKERbut Santa Clara pretty much, so anyway.

27:58SPEAKERI wonder if Worm turns to some North Carolina business

28:00SPEAKERis what I'm saying. - Maybe, I don't know.

28:02SPEAKER- So, okay, two stories on the AI front.

28:06SPEAKERBoth seem bad for AI, I don't know.

28:09SPEAKERThe first one is a short one, it's easy to explain.

28:11SPEAKERMicrosoft and Apple are both leaving the OpenAI board.

28:14SPEAKERFinancial Times reported this earlier this week,

28:16SPEAKERand the gist is that there's new attention

28:20SPEAKERfrom the US government about big companies

28:22SPEAKERusing board seats to skirt anti-competitive laws,

28:26SPEAKERanti-collusion laws.

28:27SPEAKER- Okay, yeah, that's much different

28:29SPEAKERthan I initially expected when I saw this,

28:31SPEAKERwhich kind of seemed like an expression of a lack of faith

28:36SPEAKERin the technology for them to be pulling out of this stuff,

28:38SPEAKERparticularly Microsoft having put what, like 10 billion

28:41SPEAKERinto the AI. - A lot of money, yeah.

28:42SPEAKER- But this is in fact them just trying

28:44SPEAKERto do what corporations do.

28:47SPEAKER- So it's specifically, the Justice Department

28:50SPEAKERis doing an investigation on existing tech companies

28:55SPEAKERinfluencing the new AI companies,

28:58SPEAKERwhich maybe wasn't exactly what I was hoping for,

29:01SPEAKERbut yeah, so they're gonna back out.

29:05SPEAKERThe OpenAI folks said there's gonna be ongoing meetings

29:10SPEAKERfor customers, including people such as Apple and Microsoft,

29:15SPEAKERto participate, but not in a board level.

29:18SPEAKER- So, got it.

29:19SPEAKER- And Microsoft said some stuff that didn't imply anything,

29:23SPEAKERand Apple, I think, didn't have a comment.

29:26SPEAKERSo that's kind of their thing.

29:28SPEAKER- I wonder, I shouldn't even bring it up,

29:31SPEAKERI wonder how that antitrust attention might change

29:35SPEAKERif there is a change in administration.

29:37SPEAKER- Pretty easy to guess, Brad.

29:39SPEAKER- Well, yes and no.

29:40SPEAKERI mean, normally the like corporations

29:42SPEAKERdo whatever they want vibe would be very strong there,

29:45SPEAKERbut there's also the, and again,

29:47SPEAKERI hesitate to get into this bullshit,

29:48SPEAKERlike there's Trump's animus toward social media

29:51SPEAKERand tech companies in particular.

29:54SPEAKER- That's true.

29:54SPEAKER- As regards his ability to say

29:56SPEAKERwhatever the fuck he wants on their platforms.

29:59SPEAKERAnyway, let's move on.

30:02SPEAKER- The TLDR on the FTC probe

30:05SPEAKERis that probably it's not gonna change the,

30:09SPEAKER'cause Microsoft and OpenAI

30:10SPEAKERstill have a pretty tight partnership,

30:13SPEAKERwhich is, I think, the original concern, so.

30:16SPEAKERThe second part of this is the Goldman Sachs report.

30:19SPEAKERGoldman Sachs is an investment banking firm.

30:20SPEAKERThey tell you where to spend your money

30:22SPEAKERif you're really rich and want to make a lot of money

30:24SPEAKERinto even more money.

30:25SPEAKER- Yes, this seems like a way bigger deal

30:27SPEAKERor like maybe a bigger canary in the coal mine potentially.

30:30SPEAKER- Yeah, so they send a monthly top of,

30:32SPEAKERit's called Top of Mind is the name of the publication.

30:34SPEAKERIt's a monthly report that goes out

30:36SPEAKERand they're painting a less rosy picture of generative AI

30:39SPEAKERthan anyone I've seen writing about it

30:41SPEAKERin the business world, really.

30:42SPEAKERAnd just to be clear,

30:44SPEAKERgenerative AI is stuff like large language models,

30:46SPEAKERthe image generation,

30:47SPEAKERall of the kind of questionable copyright uses.

30:52SPEAKERFun fact, didn't mention concerns

30:54SPEAKERabout copyright at all in this report.

30:57SPEAKER- You don't say.

30:58SPEAKER- Yeah, which is kind of shocking, actually.

31:00SPEAKER- Well, it is and it is.

31:02SPEAKERI mean, you know, not to stereotype,

31:05SPEAKERthese types of people, I tend to assume,

31:07SPEAKERcare about one thing only

31:08SPEAKERand it's what's going to make them money.

31:10SPEAKERAnd if copyright concerns don't affect that,

31:12SPEAKERthen why would they talk about it?

31:14SPEAKER- I was gonna say, I think that's the interesting thing

31:15SPEAKERis that because the lens

31:17SPEAKERthrough which you should look at this

31:18SPEAKERis where should you invest your money

31:21SPEAKERto make the most money off of AI and AI related hype,

31:24SPEAKERnot talking about copyright says

31:26SPEAKERthey have good reason to feel like copyright

31:29SPEAKERisn't an issue for this, at least in the short term.

31:31SPEAKER- Yeah, that does make sense.

31:35SPEAKER- Anyway.

31:36SPEAKER- Do we class Chad GPT as generative?

31:38SPEAKERIt's kind of in an in-between a little bit.

31:41SPEAKER- No, it's generative 'cause it's generating language.

31:43SPEAKERIt's a language model.

31:44SPEAKERI mean, what it's generating is a little harder

31:46SPEAKERto categorize than an image or a video.

31:50SPEAKER- But it's generating texts.

31:51SPEAKERLike, you know, you can say, hey, Chad GPT,

31:54SPEAKERwrite me a 3,000 word document

31:56SPEAKERabout Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address

31:59SPEAKERand it'll do that.

32:00SPEAKER- Well, that's what I mean.

32:00SPEAKERLike text is the medium of the output,

32:03SPEAKERbut like the nature of what it's outputting

32:05SPEAKERis much broader than one single piece of media.

32:09SPEAKERYou're right, yes.

32:10SPEAKERThat does seem as generative as anything else.

32:12SPEAKER- Yeah, from my perspective, it's the mainline generative

32:16SPEAKERcase for most people, I think.

32:19SPEAKERSo they identified multiple kind of top line risks.

32:22SPEAKEROne is that it's just not very good.

32:25SPEAKERIt can solve basic problems, but not reliably.

32:28SPEAKERAnd it can't solve complicated problems.

32:32SPEAKERIt doesn't really serve any market need.

32:35SPEAKERIt uses a bunch of power and like electrical power

32:38SPEAKERand computer hardware that doesn't really exist.

32:40SPEAKERAnd that supply is going to be supply constrained

32:43SPEAKERfor the foreseeable future.

32:45SPEAKERTheir estimate tops the total cost for infrastructure

32:48SPEAKERthat needs to support AI growth through 2030

32:51SPEAKERat around a trillion dollars.

32:53SPEAKER- A lot of money.

32:54SPEAKER- That includes like power plants, power transmission,

32:58SPEAKERNvidia chips, presumably, and data center growth.

33:04SPEAKERAnd they talk about power generation a lot, actually.

33:06SPEAKERAnd this is where that, there's been a right,

33:08SPEAKERa raft of power use stories that have come out

33:11SPEAKERover the last week.

33:12SPEAKER- Yeah, that's been getting a lot of discussion.

33:14SPEAKER- I think this kicked off a lot of them.

33:16SPEAKERThe TLDR there is the power generation in the US

33:20SPEAKERhas been pretty stagnant for the last 20 years.

33:22SPEAKERWe've seen some green energy replacing old power plants

33:29SPEAKERthat are going offline or inefficient power plants

33:31SPEAKERthat are going offline.

33:33SPEAKERThey're expecting that the data center power

33:35SPEAKERuses more than double in the next six years.

33:38SPEAKERVirginia is seeing big spikes already,

33:40SPEAKERexpecting the data center draw to go from like 0% in 2016

33:44SPEAKERof the total use of electricity in Virginia

33:47SPEAKERto 15% last year, 2023.

33:50SPEAKER- Is that just one random handpicked stat

33:53SPEAKERor does Virginia have an unusually high concentration

33:56SPEAKERof data centers or does every state have them

33:58SPEAKERand this is just the figure you have here?

34:00SPEAKER- So Northern Virginia has a high concentration

34:02SPEAKERbecause the climate is right, the water supply is good

34:06SPEAKERand power is relatively cheap.

34:08SPEAKERWhen you're building data centers,

34:10SPEAKERthose are the three things you look for is cheap power,

34:12SPEAKERa lot of water and for cooling and cheap real estate.

34:18SPEAKERSo we don't have a lot in the Bay area,

34:19SPEAKEReven though the temperature is kind of climate

34:20SPEAKERand we have a lot of water around.

34:22SPEAKERWe, I guess our water is also saltwater, which is bad.

34:26SPEAKERSo anyway, people build data centers a lot in Phoenix

34:30SPEAKERbecause space is cheap and power is cheap,

34:33SPEAKERbut not a lot of water and also it's really hot there.

34:36SPEAKERI don't get that exactly, but maybe it's,

34:39SPEAKERmaybe the difference between 70 and 100 degrees outside

34:42SPEAKERis insignificant when you're talking about

34:44SPEAKERthe amount of energy generated by these,

34:46SPEAKERheat generated by these data centers.

34:48SPEAKERThey also pointed out that chat GPT queries

34:51SPEAKERare roughly 10 times more power intensive

34:54SPEAKERthan a Google lookup at the best case.

34:57SPEAKERSo that means typing something into Google

34:59SPEAKERand asking it is, and asking chat GPT

35:02SPEAKERfor something simple is, is, is at least 10 X more power.

35:06SPEAKERI've seen that, I've seen that a wide range

35:08SPEAKERof estimates for that.

35:09SPEAKERThis one was backed up by some, some data.

35:11SPEAKERSo I don't know.

35:13SPEAKER- That's both, that's both a lot,

35:16SPEAKERbut that's both a huge difference,

35:17SPEAKERbut also maybe not as big a difference

35:18SPEAKERas I would have expected.

35:20SPEAKER- My guess is it's not factoring in the training side.

35:23SPEAKERIt's only trying to factoring in the actual query side.

35:25SPEAKER- Like time of use.

35:27SPEAKER- Yeah, the query side goes down the more people use it.

35:30SPEAKERRight, 'cause you're, you're amortizing that cost

35:32SPEAKERover more users, but still not great.

35:36SPEAKER- Yeah, and you're seeing, I mean, this is very anecdotal,

35:38SPEAKERbut you're starting to see people talking about it,

35:39SPEAKERlike especially younger users,

35:42SPEAKERlike chat GPT has basically just effectively replaced Google

35:45SPEAKERor replaced the traditional search engine

35:46SPEAKERas their search engine.

35:48SPEAKER- Yeah, I think part of that is the testament

35:49SPEAKERto hey, chat GPT is really good at being truthy

35:53SPEAKERand B, that Google has, is really good at sucking ass

35:57SPEAKERover the last five years.

35:58SPEAKER- Sure.

36:00SPEAKER- The kind of, the big executive overview of this thing

36:07SPEAKERis that it said, hey, we're looking at spending

36:08SPEAKERa trillion dollars on infrastructure to support data center

36:11SPEAKERand compute capacity, and there's no business

36:14SPEAKERto support that spend, and they contrasted that specifically

36:16SPEAKERwith the rise of the internet in the '90s,

36:19SPEAKERwhich provided a low-cost technology solution

36:22SPEAKERthat allowed online commerce to replace brick and mortar.

36:25SPEAKERSo it was cheaper and better, you know, online commerce

36:28SPEAKERversus brick and mortar, cheaper and better,

36:31SPEAKERwhereas this is more expensive and worse

36:33SPEAKERthan the markets presuming to replace.

36:36SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, there was a great line,

36:39SPEAKERa very succinct line going around on Twitter.

36:40SPEAKERI don't know if this was from this report

36:42SPEAKERor somebody was paraphrasing.

36:43SPEAKERIt might've been like Ed Citron or somebody like that.

36:45SPEAKER- Ed has been leading the charge on AI is stupid

36:48SPEAKERfor a really long time.

36:49SPEAKER- Yes, for sure, but, and I'm paraphrasing

36:52SPEAKERwhat may have been a paraphrasing in the first place,

36:54SPEAKERbut it was essentially, this is a trillion dollar technology

36:58SPEAKERwithout a trillion dollar problem that needs to be solved.

37:02SPEAKER- That was from this report, yeah.

37:03SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, which was just, I thought,

37:05SPEAKERa pretty elegant way to sum up the problem.

37:08SPEAKER- So in addition to the, hey,

37:11SPEAKERwe didn't talk about copyright at all in this thing.

37:14SPEAKERAnd I'm gonna, yeah, copyright is a phrase not found

37:18SPEAKERin the 25 or 30 page report, whatever it is.

37:24SPEAKERThey're treating Nvidia like the only semiconductor company

37:27SPEAKERcapable of building AI training chips,

37:30SPEAKERwhich I thought was interesting

37:31SPEAKER'cause both AMD and Intel have solutions in the market.

37:34SPEAKER- Yeah.

37:35SPEAKER- My understanding from Computex related stuff

37:38SPEAKERa few weeks ago is that Nvidia's main advantage

37:41SPEAKERis the same thing that they did with CUDA

37:43SPEAKERon the GPU compute side,

37:45SPEAKERwhich is that they have a hardware software package

37:48SPEAKERthat effectively locks developers onto their platform

37:51SPEAKER'cause you can't run,

37:52SPEAKERif you build your software for Nvidia data centers,

37:54SPEAKERyou can't run it on an AMD or Intel data center

37:56SPEAKER'cause you don't have the software side of that.

37:58SPEAKER- Right.

37:59SPEAKER- It's kind of comparable to building a big web app,

38:02SPEAKERa complicated web app that uses the entire AWS

38:04SPEAKERor Google Cloud stack in that it's locked on that forever

38:08SPEAKER'cause it costs so much to change over

38:09SPEAKERto the other platforms, you're probably not gonna bother.

38:12SPEAKER- This is just the graphics API wars all over again.

38:15SPEAKER- Kind of is, except for now,

38:17SPEAKERinstead of it being a $100 million business,

38:20SPEAKERit's a trillion dollar huge infrastructure.

38:23SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.

38:24SPEAKERAlso, I assume this maybe also has something to do

38:26SPEAKERwith just the short-term thinking

38:29SPEAKERthat most investment types, I assume, engage in,

38:33SPEAKERvery quarterly, too annual.

38:34SPEAKERLike Nvidia is the thing making money now,

38:36SPEAKERit's like these other companies may get there later,

38:39SPEAKERbut this is the only company that matters

38:41SPEAKERin the sense that you will make money on them.

38:44SPEAKER- I think that's true.

38:45SPEAKERIt's also possible that there's something fundamental

38:47SPEAKERthat we don't understand about this market

38:49SPEAKER'cause it's not a place where we usually do a lot of work.

38:52SPEAKER- Yeah.

38:53SPEAKER- I think that, however, judging by the comments,

38:57SPEAKERthis has the normal range in analyst reports.

39:00SPEAKERSome of them seem very smart

39:01SPEAKERand some of them seem like real dopes.

39:02SPEAKERSo just judging by the things that I am comfortable

39:06SPEAKERmaking a judgment on.

39:11SPEAKERThere's a ton of hardware startups in this space.

39:13SPEAKERThere's a ton of different people.

39:16SPEAKERAnd of course, Intel and AMD are both enormous companies

39:19SPEAKERthat are trying to crack in here as well.

39:22SPEAKERI think that the software,

39:25SPEAKERI think underestimating the impact of,

39:28SPEAKERhey, we've built all of our software for Nvidia.

39:30SPEAKERWe got to keep buying Nvidia,

39:32SPEAKERremains probably pretty important

39:34SPEAKERunless Nvidia just can't deliver chips.

39:36SPEAKER- Right.

39:37SPEAKERYeah, and I wonder if they've just got too big

39:38SPEAKERof a headstart at this point.

39:40SPEAKERLike, I don't know what the efforts are

39:41SPEAKERin like kind of open common APIs for this sort of thing.

39:46SPEAKERLike I'd be like-

39:47SPEAKER- There are efforts for sure, yeah.

39:48SPEAKER- Yeah, like direct ML is a thing for Microsoft, right?

39:51SPEAKERBut that would be limited to Windows.

39:53SPEAKER- Yeah, I think that it's like the stuff

39:54SPEAKERthat's stability, stable diffusion

39:56SPEAKERand the more open sides are working on.

39:59SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know if there's any kind

40:00SPEAKERof like machine learning equivalent of Vulcan out there,

40:03SPEAKERlike just like an open working group,

40:05SPEAKERputting something open source

40:07SPEAKERand the platform agnostic together.

40:09SPEAKER- I mean, I think the larger issue is

40:10SPEAKERthat you're building your applications to do the training.

40:13SPEAKERAnd those are the place where the investment is.

40:15SPEAKERAnd once you do the train,

40:16SPEAKERlike being able to do the training is the hard part, right?

40:21SPEAKERAnyway, the other thing that I thought was interesting

40:24SPEAKERout of this is that they,

40:26SPEAKERand this is something that we've said before as well,

40:28SPEAKERthey don't feel like the cost of compute

40:30SPEAKERis going to decrease.

40:31SPEAKERLike they don't, they describe everyone as being optimistic.

40:36SPEAKERAnd the assumption that cost of compute goes down

40:40SPEAKERis based on idea, A, the idea of Gordon's of Moore's law,

40:46SPEAKERincreasing performance or decreasing cost

40:49SPEAKERper transistor, basically, for a really long time.

40:52SPEAKERAnd the fact that AMD and Nvidia and Intel

40:54SPEAKERand all these other companies were competing

40:56SPEAKERwith each other, it's also based a lot on the idea

40:59SPEAKERthat in the early web days, when it costs,

41:02SPEAKERwhen the starting website meant you had to have

41:04SPEAKERa Sun Microsystems server someplace

41:07SPEAKERrunning their web server, right?

41:09SPEAKER'Cause that's what the web server software ran on.

41:11SPEAKERAnd then all of a sudden Linux came along

41:13SPEAKERand the LAMP stack meant you could put it

41:15SPEAKERon a $2,000 computer instead of a $65,000 Sun server,

41:19SPEAKERthe cost of making websites went down

41:21SPEAKERdramatically in the early 2000s.

41:25SPEAKERLike I thought that was fascinating

41:27SPEAKER'cause I hadn't actually thought about it

41:28SPEAKERin that context before.

41:30SPEAKERAnd it's actually very true.

41:34SPEAKERPeople generally overestimate what the technology,

41:37SPEAKERthis is another thing they said,

41:39SPEAKERpeople generally substantially overestimate

41:40SPEAKERwhat the technology is capable of today.

41:42SPEAKERThis is a direct quote.

41:43SPEAKERIn our experience, even basic summarization tasks

41:46SPEAKERoften yield an illegible and nonsensical results.

41:49SPEAKERThat is my experience exactly.

41:51SPEAKER- Yeah, there's something very validating

41:52SPEAKERabout reading this in such blunt language

41:54SPEAKERand from money people.

41:56SPEAKER- Yeah, these are the people.

41:57SPEAKER- From people who have no interest

41:58SPEAKERin tearing this technology down

42:00SPEAKERon ideological or emotional grounds.

42:02SPEAKERLike they just can't, like they,

42:04SPEAKERif the thing was going to make you a bajillion dollars,

42:06SPEAKERthey would be happy to shepherd you in that direction.

42:09SPEAKER- Yeah, absolutely.

42:10SPEAKER- If they thought it was capable of doing that.

42:11SPEAKERSo hearing them make this pretty blunt assessment

42:17SPEAKERfeels pretty good.

42:19SPEAKER- So let's see.

42:21SPEAKERThe next one is that there's no roadmap

42:25SPEAKERfor the future of this tech,

42:26SPEAKERwhich they directly compared to the run-up

42:28SPEAKERto the smartphone in the early 2000s.

42:30SPEAKERAnd the analyst who wrote this one specifically said,

42:33SPEAKERlook, I was there in the early 2000s

42:35SPEAKERand everybody acts like now,

42:36SPEAKERlike the iPhone came out of nowhere in 2007,

42:38SPEAKERbut it is absolutely untrue.

42:40SPEAKERThere were people talking about payments.

42:41SPEAKERThere were people talking about cameras.

42:43SPEAKERThere were people talking about data

42:45SPEAKERand always connected devices

42:46SPEAKERand connecting to the internet,

42:48SPEAKERprimarily through your phone.

42:49SPEAKER- Touchscreens.

42:50SPEAKER- Yeah, Palm and Microsoft

42:52SPEAKERand a bunch of people who were in that space

42:53SPEAKERbefore the iPhone were absolutely doing that.

42:56SPEAKERAnd there's none of that here.

42:58SPEAKERLike we're 18 months into this

42:59SPEAKERand no one has examples

43:01SPEAKERor a single cost-effective use for this technology

43:03SPEAKERsince the launch of chatGPT 3.5.

43:08SPEAKERSo yeah, it is literally a trillion dollar investment

43:14SPEAKERwith no plan for return.

43:16SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.

43:17SPEAKERI jotted down here in response to this.

43:19SPEAKERI mean, this is not my response.

43:20SPEAKERThis is the AI people's,

43:21SPEAKERbut if you were to say there's no roadmap for this tech,

43:25SPEAKERAGI is what they all say is the end goal

43:28SPEAKERor general intelligence,

43:30SPEAKERbut that's so vaguely defined

43:32SPEAKERin terms of who could accomplish that if at all

43:35SPEAKERand what it would do if anything.

43:38SPEAKERThat I don't know that that's even worth discussing

43:40SPEAKERat this point.

43:41SPEAKER- So they talked about AGI in this.

43:44SPEAKERAnd the AGI is the idea

43:45SPEAKERthat you'll get human scale intelligence basically, right?

43:47SPEAKER- Yeah, like what is the common definition,

43:49SPEAKERlike kind of AI that is capable of doing anything a human can

43:53SPEAKERbut what does that even mean?

43:54SPEAKERBecause like intellectually, I assume,

43:57SPEAKERlike we're not talking about like,

43:59SPEAKERphysical manipulation of objects

44:01SPEAKERunless you put the AI in a robot body, I suppose,

44:03SPEAKERbut you get what I mean.

44:05SPEAKER- I can't find the exact quote,

44:06SPEAKERbut the summation of this idea,

44:09SPEAKER'cause the idea is that in order to teach a person,

44:12SPEAKERyou have to first get them to the,

44:14SPEAKERyou have to first teach them how to read,

44:15SPEAKERyou have to teach them how to draw,

44:16SPEAKERand you have to, you know,

44:17SPEAKERwe're teaching these machines at kindergarten level,

44:20SPEAKERbut their take on that was that there's nothing to show,

44:23SPEAKERthere's nothing to say that if we continue to invest in that,

44:26SPEAKERwe'll actually reach that point.

44:27SPEAKERThere's literally nothing we're seeing so far.

44:29SPEAKERIn fact, actually, the more we spend time on it,

44:31SPEAKERthere's been regressions on some of the later models

44:34SPEAKERfor like ChatGPT 4 versus 3.5

44:37SPEAKERbecause they're getting worse and sort of better.

44:39SPEAKER- Yeah.

44:41SPEAKER- I mean, maybe they're just,

44:43SPEAKERmaybe we just have a,

44:44SPEAKERmaybe ChatGPT is just a slow second grader,

44:47SPEAKERis what I'm thinking.

44:50SPEAKERAnd then the last one is that they think that like,

44:52SPEAKERthe economists who are looking at what this is gonna do

44:55SPEAKERto workforce and jobs and like the overall,

44:58SPEAKERthis is one of my favorite stupid ideas,

45:01SPEAKERbut the overall output of the United States,

45:05SPEAKERthe workforce, everyone, what everyone does.

45:08SPEAKER- Just the economic output?

45:10SPEAKER- Like how much more money we as a country,

45:12SPEAKERas a people in this country make

45:14SPEAKERbecause of the advent of AI.

45:17SPEAKERAnd they were like, it's maybe 0.9%,

45:19SPEAKER0.9, 9/10 of a percent increase because they're,

45:24SPEAKERand like not gonna have blowout leads

45:26SPEAKERin any single categories or anything

45:29SPEAKERbecause they think it's going to lead

45:31SPEAKERto efficiency improvements.

45:33SPEAKERSo meaning one person can do more work,

45:35SPEAKERwhich means it'll be like,

45:37SPEAKEReveryone will have access to the same technology

45:40SPEAKERand we'll all see the same efficiency improvements.

45:42SPEAKERSo it's not like the people who get AI

45:45SPEAKERwill be really, really good, super fast

45:47SPEAKERand better and smarter and faster.

45:48SPEAKERIt's that they'll all be getting the same illegible

45:52SPEAKERand nonsensical results from their AI models.

45:56SPEAKERSo it'll impact everyone the same.

45:58SPEAKERSo yeah.

45:59SPEAKER- Definitely sounds like it's worth a trillion dollars.

46:01SPEAKER- Don't spend a trillion dollars on this.

46:03SPEAKERLike here's the question I have for my legislators is,

46:07SPEAKERhey, who's gonna pay for these power plants, right?

46:11SPEAKERAre you and I as customers of the power grid

46:14SPEAKERgonna pay for these power plants?

46:15SPEAKER- That was going to be my first answer.

46:17SPEAKER- Yeah, I think that's probably the way it's gonna go

46:18SPEAKERunless we start complaining

46:19SPEAKERto our congressional representatives right now, right?

46:23SPEAKERLike I think that that is a real absolute concern

46:26SPEAKERthat I'm paying $500 a month for electricity right now

46:30SPEAKERto subsidize open AI's bad language models.

46:36SPEAKER- Socialized risk and privatized profit

46:38SPEAKERis the American way.

46:40SPEAKER- Well, that's grim.

46:41SPEAKER- I will give you a little follow up though

46:43SPEAKERbefore we wrap up here.

46:45SPEAKERI have pinpointed the origin of the phrase,

46:48SPEAKERthe worm turns or in its original form,

46:50SPEAKEReven a worm will turn.

46:52SPEAKER- Okay.

46:53SPEAKER- Is from a 1546 collection of proverbs by John Heywood.

46:57SPEAKER- So it's about a worm, like an actual worm?

46:59SPEAKER- Although this is in middle English,

47:01SPEAKERwhich I am not going to,

47:02SPEAKERI had to do some middle English in school,

47:05SPEAKERbut I'm not going to attempt to read this.

47:06SPEAKER- So it's about like earthworms basically?

47:09SPEAKER- This is Wikipedia's description.

47:12SPEAKERIt conveys the message

47:13SPEAKERthat even the meekest or most docile of creatures

47:15SPEAKERwill retaliate or seek revenge if pushed too far.

47:18SPEAKER- Oh, well, so that we should be nice to the machines

47:20SPEAKERis what you're telling me.

47:20SPEAKER- Yes, yes, the phrase that also appeared in Shakespeare

47:23SPEAKERfor what it's worth.

47:24SPEAKER- Well, I apologize for my second grader comment, open AI.

47:30SPEAKERIt's the end, Brad.

47:32SPEAKER- Finally.

47:33SPEAKER- The end of Windows 10.

47:35SPEAKER- Oh, I don't know.

47:37SPEAKERThat was a pretty good Windows.

47:38SPEAKERMaybe that's actually not something to celebrate.

47:40SPEAKER- Are you, you finally made the turn, right?

47:42SPEAKER- Yeah, no, no, I've been on 11

47:43SPEAKERsince I moved to the Centel machine.

47:46SPEAKER- Ah.

47:47SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't have much to complain about, I suppose.

47:50SPEAKER- You can make Windows 11,

47:51SPEAKERas somebody who's been working on some videos for PC World

47:54SPEAKERabout how to make Windows 11 not suck, it's not hard.

47:57SPEAKERYou can run a couple of registry keys

47:59SPEAKERand all of a sudden most of the problems are gone.

48:01SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, that said,

48:02SPEAKERI still have not gotten around to tweaking

48:04SPEAKERthe right-click menu.

48:05SPEAKERI've still got the stupid two-stage right-click menu

48:09SPEAKERat the moment.

48:09SPEAKER- I find myself not minding this two-stage right-click menu

48:13SPEAKER'cause I only dip into the show more options

48:15SPEAKERabout twice a week.

48:18SPEAKERAnyway, Windows 10, long may it live in our hearts,

48:22SPEAKERwill stop getting security updates

48:23SPEAKERin October of 2025 from Microsoft.

48:26SPEAKER- Yeah, which I think has been known about for a while,

48:28SPEAKERbut we're actually getting there now.

48:31SPEAKERLike I think when that was announced, I looked at that

48:33SPEAKERand I was like, ah, that's like three and a half years away.

48:35SPEAKERLike whatever, I'll be fine.

48:37SPEAKERThat might as well be an eternity,

48:38SPEAKERbut now we are actually coming up on it.

48:40SPEAKER- It's specifically October 14th, 2025.

48:44SPEAKER- Judgment day.

48:45SPEAKER- Yeah, exactly, dun-dun-dun-dun-dun.

48:51SPEAKERAt that point, most users will stop getting

48:53SPEAKERWindows security updates.

48:55SPEAKERThere'll be no new feature updates.

48:57SPEAKERMicrosoft will offer paid security updates,

49:00SPEAKERwhich is traditionally to corporations for machines

49:04SPEAKERthat are like hooked up to some giant piece

49:06SPEAKERof industrial equipment or whatever,

49:09SPEAKERand you don't wanna keep, you know, you don't wanna,

49:13SPEAKERyou can't change.

49:14SPEAKERLike if you have something attached to

49:16SPEAKERa million dollar MRI machine,

49:18SPEAKERyou just unplug it from the internet

49:19SPEAKERand you leave it running.

49:21SPEAKER- The irony is based on what I mostly read

49:23SPEAKERabout embedded systems like that,

49:24SPEAKERthat are hooked up to industrial equipment,

49:26SPEAKERthey're going to need to keep updating Windows 10

49:29SPEAKERfor another like 30 years,

49:31SPEAKERbecause most of what I hear is like it's a 486.

49:33SPEAKERIt's like something from the 90s

49:35SPEAKERthat is still running this thing.

49:36SPEAKEROr, you know, that's why there's that cottage industry

49:38SPEAKERof 486 compatible SOCs out there now,

49:41SPEAKER'cause people still have like industrial control software

49:43SPEAKERthat needs to run on a machine like that.

49:45SPEAKER- More likely, we have a friend of the show

49:49SPEAKERwho works in like a data chip bag type situation,

49:54SPEAKERwho has sent occasionally pictures of just bathrooms

49:58SPEAKERthat are full of old machines that they farm parts out of

50:01SPEAKERwhen one of those machines dies.

50:03SPEAKERSo like as all the old Pentium five and Pentium threes

50:06SPEAKERand Pentium twos conked out,

50:09SPEAKERthey would just pull them out and save them

50:12SPEAKERand then farm parts from them

50:13SPEAKERwhen they needed to fix those old machines

50:15SPEAKERand just leave them unplugged from the internet.

50:17SPEAKER- Yep.

50:19SPEAKER- The, Microsoft is offering paid security updates

50:23SPEAKERfor a couple more years to corporations.

50:25SPEAKERThose costs go up over time.

50:27SPEAKERThey're not really going to be available to normal users

50:29SPEAKERas far as we can tell at this point.

50:31SPEAKERSo at that point, Windows 10 will be effectively unpatched.

50:34SPEAKERMicrosoft typically offers paid security updates

50:37SPEAKERafter that point, typically to corporations.

50:39SPEAKERIn this case, they might make them available to customers

50:42SPEAKERbecause of this next thing, which is,

50:47SPEAKERyeah, you could just update to Windows 11, right?

50:50SPEAKERIt's free.

50:51SPEAKERYou have Windows 10, Windows 11 costs nothing.

50:53SPEAKER- Right, you're the product now.

50:55SPEAKER- Yeah, welcome, congratulations, you've transcended.

50:59SPEAKERExcept now, the hardware requirements for Windows 10

51:03SPEAKERaren't really a subset.

51:05SPEAKERI'm sorry, the hardware requirements for Windows 11

51:07SPEAKERaren't entirely a superset of Windows 10's requirements.

51:11SPEAKERWhat I mean is, you have the basic stuff.

51:14SPEAKERYou need a one gigahertz processor with two cores,

51:16SPEAKERfour gigabytes of RAM, 64 gigabytes plus of storage.

51:20SPEAKER- You know, it's funny seeing those spelled out.

51:22SPEAKERI haven't thought to look up the literal system requirements

51:26SPEAKERof Windows in a very long time.

51:27SPEAKERThose are actually way lower

51:28SPEAKERthan I would have expected at this point.

51:29SPEAKER- I'll tell you a secret, they haven't really changed much

51:32SPEAKERexcept for the addition of that second core

51:34SPEAKERsince Windows XP and the end of the Windows XP timeframe.

51:38SPEAKER- No kidding.

51:40SPEAKER- The memory requirements have gone from two gigabytes

51:42SPEAKERto four gigabytes, and the one gigahertz processor

51:45SPEAKERhas been there forever.

51:46SPEAKER- Yeah, you know, they've been on the same kernel

51:49SPEAKERwith modifications, of course,

51:50SPEAKERbut it's kind of the same technology they've been on

51:52SPEAKERfor 20, what, 25 years now, basically,

51:55SPEAKERsince they moved to--

51:57SPEAKER- Yeah, since they went to NT, Windows 2000, yeah.

52:01SPEAKER- So the thing that's worse than normal

52:04SPEAKERis that they now require that you boot from UEFI,

52:07SPEAKERnot old school BIOS, and it has to be secure boot capable.

52:11SPEAKERThat's actually not that much of a problem.

52:12SPEAKERMost systems will work, will do that,

52:16SPEAKERthat have been made in the last 10 or 12 years.

52:19SPEAKERYou may have to turn that on in the BIOS,

52:21SPEAKERwhich Windows does a bad job of telling you.

52:24SPEAKERThe issue is that it requires TPM 2.0.

52:28SPEAKERAnd there's a lot of really iffy information

52:30SPEAKERabout this on the internet, 'cause the early versions

52:32SPEAKERof Windows 11 in beta would work with earlier versions

52:35SPEAKERof TPM, TPM 1.2, which is available much, much longer ago,

52:39SPEAKERall the way back to like Sandy Bridge,

52:40SPEAKERwhich is a 2013 or 2014 part.

52:43SPEAKER- The trusted platform module that we mentioned?

52:45SPEAKER- Trusted platform module, what a TPM is,

52:48SPEAKERthe trusted platform module is a secure crypto processor.

52:51SPEAKERIt includes hardware acceleration

52:53SPEAKERfor certain types of algorithms like AES.

52:56SPEAKERIt has a hardware random number generator.

53:00SPEAKERIt has storage for keys and software to generate them.

53:03SPEAKERAnd it has a way to determine if the hardware in the PC

53:06SPEAKERhas materially changed using a hash.

53:10SPEAKERSecure boot is part of UEFI spec

53:12SPEAKERthat secures the boot process.

53:13SPEAKERIt limits other boot loaders.

53:15SPEAKERYou have to have a signed boot loader

53:16SPEAKERin order to boot with it.

53:18SPEAKERAnd you can install UEFI drivers

53:21SPEAKERthat aren't digitally signed either,

53:22SPEAKERwhich means it has booting implications.

53:24SPEAKER- Yeah, I know secure boot has been the bane

53:27SPEAKERof the Linux world for a while,

53:28SPEAKERalthough I think they've mostly gotten around that

53:30SPEAKERat this point.

53:31SPEAKER- Yeah, at this point, there's a couple of different ways

53:33SPEAKERaround that in the Linux world.

53:34SPEAKERIt's still, BSD doesn't have a secure boot solution.

53:38SPEAKERYou have to turn it off to boot a BSD machine.

53:40SPEAKER- Oh, I did not know that.

53:43SPEAKER- So the upshot for this

53:46SPEAKERis that you can install Windows 11 on a machine

53:50SPEAKERthat's built more than like seven-ish years ago.

53:53SPEAKER- Yeah, there's like pretty short span of time,

53:55SPEAKERall things considered,

53:56SPEAKER'cause computers kind of last a long time now.

53:58SPEAKER- It wouldn't be that big a deal

53:59SPEAKERif Microsoft didn't have a billion computers

54:01SPEAKERrunning Windows 10 at this point.

54:05SPEAKER- Yeah.

54:05SPEAKER- It limits you to Intel's eighth gen and newer machines.

54:10SPEAKERSo that's-

54:11SPEAKER- Coffee Lake.

54:12SPEAKER- Yeah, that's it.

54:14SPEAKERSo KB Lake and older don't work anymore.

54:17SPEAKER- Which is kind of crazy

54:18SPEAKERbecause KB Lake is what I was coming from

54:20SPEAKERwhen I built this,

54:21SPEAKERwell, both of the new machines last year.

54:23SPEAKERBut like, you know, for my purposes,

54:25SPEAKERthat machine was pretty long in the tooth.

54:26SPEAKERLike I was probably on that machine

54:28SPEAKERa generation or two longer than I should have been,

54:31SPEAKERbut it would still work just fine

54:32SPEAKERfor a lot of people to be using a machine of that era.

54:36SPEAKER- Yeah, these are firmly computers in the,

54:38SPEAKERI use it to run Chrome and check email and stuff

54:41SPEAKERkind of use cases at this point.

54:42SPEAKER- Yeah, like for reference,

54:45SPEAKERseventh gen I think came out in 2017 or maybe '16 at latest,

54:48SPEAKERbut it's like not that long ago.

54:50SPEAKER- Seventh gen processors came out in 2017.

54:52SPEAKERI looked it up on the art side.

54:54SPEAKER- Yes, that's right.

54:55SPEAKERSo it's like really, I mean, granted,

54:56SPEAKERwe had a last pandemic in there and everything,

54:58SPEAKERbut still that's not the oldest computer in the world.

55:01SPEAKERLike it does feel like a bit premature.

55:03SPEAKER- Yeah, the first Coffee Lake machines shipped in 2018.

55:08SPEAKEROn the AMD side, it's basically Ryzen 1 and newer.

55:11SPEAKEREverything older is out.

55:13SPEAKER- Okay, that's, well.

55:15SPEAKER- Same timeframe, it's 2017, 2018 is the cut.

55:18SPEAKER- Which, I mean, I guess that just makes sense.

55:20SPEAKERThat's when TPM technology became widespread.

55:22SPEAKER- Well, that's when TPM 2 came out.

55:25SPEAKER- I think part of the deal is that TPM 1 and 1.2

55:28SPEAKERoften were optional, unlike enthusiast motherboards.

55:32SPEAKERSo like older motherboards,

55:34SPEAKERlike I have a Sandy Bridge board.

55:36SPEAKERI think you have one that's similar that had a TPM header,

55:38SPEAKERwhich basically looks like one of those USB,

55:41SPEAKERold school USB 2 headers.

55:43SPEAKERAnd you plugged a board specific module into that

55:45SPEAKERif you wanted TPM 1.2 on your desktop PC.

55:48SPEAKER- Yeah, but 1.2, as we've said, is not good enough for 11.

55:51SPEAKER- So there's conflicting reports.

55:53SPEAKERIt seems like you can install it,

55:54SPEAKERbut maybe not activate if you have TPM 1.2.

55:57SPEAKERIt is not supported according to the official specs

56:01SPEAKERfor Windows 11.

56:02SPEAKER- So that's the word that had been going around

56:04SPEAKERwhen 11 first got big was like,

56:06SPEAKERoh, there are ways to install it on machines

56:08SPEAKERlacking TPMs entirely.

56:09SPEAKERBut like you said, inactivate it,

56:11SPEAKERwhich means you can't pull updates from Windows Update,

56:13SPEAKERwhich like, don't run any windows that you can't update.

56:18SPEAKER- For what it's worth, I don't think they,

56:21SPEAKERyou can't pull optional updates

56:22SPEAKERif you have an unactivated windows now,

56:24SPEAKERyou still get security updates, I think.

56:26SPEAKER- Oh, okay, yeah, 'cause I guess it's in their best interest

56:29SPEAKERto not have a bunch of unpatched windows machines around.

56:31SPEAKER- Yeah, they've fixed a lot of the goofy rules

56:33SPEAKERaround that stuff that used to be a problem.

56:36SPEAKERAnyway, so yeah, so effectively what they're saying

56:41SPEAKERis anything that was built before 2018

56:43SPEAKERis probably not gonna be supported anymore,

56:46SPEAKERwhich is a lot of computers.

56:47SPEAKER- Yeah.

56:48SPEAKER- People are fairly upset.

56:49SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, that's right in that window

56:52SPEAKERthat I think of where computers got good.

56:54SPEAKERLike, I mean, they were good before that, I'm generalizing,

56:56SPEAKERbut what I mean is like they got,

56:58SPEAKERthey reached a level of compute

56:59SPEAKERthat had surpassed the needs of the common operating system

57:02SPEAKERand a lot of people's like day-to-day computing needs

57:06SPEAKERto such a degree that those computers

57:07SPEAKERare just kind of going to last for a while.

57:10SPEAKER- Like my MacBook from 2013 is running a Chrome OS board

57:15SPEAKERand it's perfectly usable, right?

57:17SPEAKERIt's a time when you had enough memory

57:19SPEAKERand you had enough storage and SSDs were prevalent

57:21SPEAKERand like all of the pieces were aligned

57:23SPEAKERand like you said, computers got kind of good.

57:26SPEAKER- Yeah.

57:27SPEAKER- There's a couple of problems here.

57:31SPEAKERWe're gonna e-waste a whole bunch of computers

57:34SPEAKERon October 25th, 2025, or October 14th, 2025 right now.

57:38SPEAKERPart of the problem is that a lot of machines

57:41SPEAKERshipped with this stuff turned off,

57:42SPEAKERespecially consumer machines.

57:44SPEAKERSo when you run the hey, can my computer run Windows 11,

57:48SPEAKEReven if you have a machine that you bought in like 2019,

57:49SPEAKER2020, 2022, 2021 in some cases,

57:52SPEAKERthe TPM module and the secure boot

57:56SPEAKERwill be turned off in the Eufy.

57:59SPEAKER- Yeah, and that seems like a perfect storm

58:01SPEAKERbecause a lot of, I'm guessing a lot of the people

58:03SPEAKERwho wouldn't try to update Windows 11 until it was good,

58:06SPEAKERit was saying like, hey, Windows 10

58:08SPEAKERis not getting updates anymore, you should really update.

58:10SPEAKERAnd like, those are probably also the type of people

58:11SPEAKERthat wouldn't know to look in the BIOS

58:13SPEAKERto turn something on when their computer says,

58:15SPEAKERno, you can't run 11.

58:16SPEAKER- Or in some cases, update the BIOS

58:18SPEAKERand then check the BIOS, right?

58:20SPEAKERIt's like a two-step process.

58:22SPEAKERAnd the checker doesn't say,

58:24SPEAKERhey, your machine should support this,

58:25SPEAKERyou have to turn some stuff on.

58:27SPEAKERIt does for some machines,

58:28SPEAKERit doesn't for a lot of them, basically.

58:31SPEAKERYou can theoretically buy a TPM2 module

58:34SPEAKERfor some specific machines, but they're board specific.

58:38SPEAKERAnd so you can't just go to Amazon

58:40SPEAKERand buy a generic USB TPM2 module

58:42SPEAKERthat needs to hook in at a lower level than that.

58:44SPEAKER- Yeah. - It's a real kind of...

58:50SPEAKEROkay, so not all doom and gloom.

58:53SPEAKERWe have a year, Microsoft has pushed back the date

58:55SPEAKERfor this end of life date for OS as before,

58:58SPEAKERthey did it for XP.

59:00SPEAKERIt's entirely possible you're gonna do it again here.

59:02SPEAKER- I think they did it for seven as well, I wanna say.

59:04SPEAKER- I feel like that's the case,

59:05SPEAKER'cause 8.2 or whatever was, people did not like it.

59:10SPEAKERI think there's a possibility that they'll have

59:17SPEAKERsome sort of larger security update process

59:20SPEAKERthat's more consumer accessible than the traditional one.

59:22SPEAKERI think they've already said

59:23SPEAKERthat they're gonna make the consumer one accessible

59:25SPEAKERthis go round because of this change.

59:28SPEAKERThey may also change the requirements on Secure Boot and TPM

59:32SPEAKERto lessen them for the new one,

59:33SPEAKER'cause it's not like they're actually,

59:35SPEAKERunless you turn on BitLocker,

59:37SPEAKERthe hard drive encryption software,

59:38SPEAKERthey really don't use it.

59:40SPEAKERThey use Secure Boot, but they don't use the TPM a whole lot.

59:43SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess this is kind of an arbitrary requirement.

59:48SPEAKER- Look, it's Microsoft, so they're making a decision

59:50SPEAKERon this for 10 years in the future when they can say,

59:53SPEAKER"Hey, all of your software has to be signed

59:56SPEAKER"in order to run it on our computer."

59:58SPEAKER- Yeah, let's be clear, this kind of hardware validation

1:00:01SPEAKERis not a bad thing, right?

1:00:02SPEAKERI mean, it can be very annoying.

1:00:05SPEAKER- It's problematic from a,

1:00:06SPEAKER"Hey, who owns my computer?" standpoint.

1:00:08SPEAKER- Yeah, yes, sure. - 'Cause it is a box

1:00:10SPEAKERthat I don't own and I don't have access to,

1:00:12SPEAKERand I can't really write keys or remove keys

1:00:14SPEAKER'cause a lot of them are baked into hardware

1:00:16SPEAKERand stuff like that.

1:00:16SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess when hardware is in play,

1:00:20SPEAKERit is a bit buzzier.

1:00:22SPEAKERLike HTTPS has been obviously a huge boon for the internet,

1:00:25SPEAKERfor example, like authentication.

1:00:27SPEAKER- Absolutely.

1:00:29SPEAKER- Certification of authority and security

1:00:31SPEAKERhas been enormously beneficial on the internet,

1:00:33SPEAKERbut I guess when you have a piece of hardware,

1:00:37SPEAKERthere's a different expectation around a physical good

1:00:39SPEAKERthat you buy as if it's like a car or a tractor or something

1:00:42SPEAKERand you wanna just do what the hell you wanna do with it.

1:00:44SPEAKER- Well, and-

1:00:45SPEAKER- And that's a little bit more frustrating.

1:00:47SPEAKER- In a world where there's not market pressure

1:00:50SPEAKERto prevent them from doing this, Microsoft could say,

1:00:52SPEAKER"Hey, all of your software has to come

1:00:54SPEAKER"from the Microsoft store when you run on this computer."

1:00:57SPEAKERI mean, that's what they were clearly trying to do

1:00:59SPEAKERwith Windows 8 and people just revolted

1:01:01SPEAKERand also those software sucked and it was bad.

1:01:03SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, I don't know how recent of a Mac OS

1:01:05SPEAKERyou've used day-to-day, but Apple has gone way harder

1:01:08SPEAKERin that direction than Microsoft ever thought about.

1:01:11SPEAKERLike you can still get around it,

1:01:12SPEAKERyou can absolutely still disable all that stuff eventually

1:01:15SPEAKERand run whatever you want on a modern MacBook,

1:01:18SPEAKERbut like it takes, sometimes it takes,

1:01:21SPEAKERdepending on what you're trying to run,

1:01:22SPEAKERit can take like tinkering in the terminal

1:01:23SPEAKERto get them to let you run just like a random unsigned

1:01:28SPEAKERbinary that you downloaded from somewhere.

1:01:30SPEAKER- Yeah, that's madness.

1:01:33SPEAKERSo anyway, if you're affected,

1:01:35SPEAKERif you're on Windows 10, you're worried about this,

1:01:38SPEAKERthere's some things to know.

1:01:39SPEAKEREntirely likely that they're gonna extend the date,

1:01:42SPEAKERat least once.

1:01:45SPEAKERIf you have a machine that's newer than 2018,

1:01:47SPEAKERthat you bought more recently than 2018,

1:01:49SPEAKERyou can check your BIOS, you should update your BIOS.

1:01:52SPEAKERYou can check your BIOS to see if you can turn on the options.

1:01:55SPEAKERThere's actually a really good Microsoft document

1:01:58SPEAKERthat says if you go to the install Windows 11 page

1:02:03SPEAKERand search for and look at like system requirements,

1:02:06SPEAKERthere's a link that says it shows you

1:02:07SPEAKERhow to turn on the TSM and secure boot,

1:02:12SPEAKERTPM and secure boot rather.

1:02:15SPEAKERYou can e-waste your computer and buy a new one.

1:02:17SPEAKERI'm sure they're really excited

1:02:18SPEAKERabout selling co-pilot plus PCs.

1:02:20SPEAKER- I bet.

1:02:21SPEAKER- Yeah, that's an option.

1:02:22SPEAKER- Yes.

1:02:23SPEAKER- Desktop Linux.

1:02:24SPEAKER- I wrote this.

1:02:25SPEAKER- Pretty good now.

1:02:26SPEAKER- Yes, well, you know, we talked about it recently,

1:02:28SPEAKERlike it's, look, it's been literally like two decades

1:02:32SPEAKERof joking about the year of the Linux desktop.

1:02:34SPEAKER- It's not 2025.

1:02:37SPEAKER- But it's actually kind of not a joke anymore.

1:02:40SPEAKERNot saying that it's gonna be like the operating system

1:02:44SPEAKERof the future or something,

1:02:45SPEAKERbut it's actually becoming viable.

1:02:46SPEAKERYou know, like it's, we're actually at the point

1:02:48SPEAKERwhere it's not just a joke to say,

1:02:50SPEAKERhey, you should run Linux on the desktop.

1:02:51SPEAKERIt is increasingly becoming like a totally viable option

1:02:54SPEAKERfor even people who don't wanna spend their life in a shell.

1:02:58SPEAKER- You can play your video games over there now

1:03:00SPEAKERand run your Adobe software and stuff just kind of works

1:03:03SPEAKERfor the most part.

1:03:04SPEAKER- Yeah, or, you know, it's really, it's the driver support.

1:03:06SPEAKERIt's like the OS installation and the driver support

1:03:08SPEAKERand the out of box experience has gotten good enough

1:03:10SPEAKERand with a lot of distros and a lot of desktop environments

1:03:12SPEAKERat this point that...

1:03:14SPEAKER- Well, and especially older hardware, right?

1:03:16SPEAKER- Yes.

1:03:17SPEAKER- So if you're on a machine that's not supported

1:03:18SPEAKERby Windows 11, it's gonna be supported by whatever LTM

1:03:21SPEAKERversion of Linux you download.

1:03:23SPEAKERIf you're getting Ubuntu or Pop!OS or one of those,

1:03:26SPEAKERit'll stop, you'll plug it in, it'll just work,

1:03:28SPEAKEReven for laptops.

1:03:29SPEAKER- Yes, and then there are plenty of distros

1:03:33SPEAKERthat are explicitly catered to old hardware

1:03:36SPEAKERthat run stuff like XFCE and some of the like really

1:03:38SPEAKERbare bones, like lightweight desktops and stuff like that.

1:03:44SPEAKERSo you can revitalize an old machine and get it running

1:03:47SPEAKERquite nicely with a lot of different Linux distros

1:03:50SPEAKERthese days and so if you've got like a sixth or seventh gen

1:03:52SPEAKERIntel machine that you don't wanna stop using

1:03:54SPEAKERand you don't wanna deal with all this Windows crap,

1:03:56SPEAKERlike that's actually a viable option now.

1:03:58SPEAKER- There's also Chrome OS Flex, which is an open port

1:04:04SPEAKERof Chrome OS, it basically turns your old laptop

1:04:09SPEAKERor desktop PC into a Chrome OS machine.

1:04:13SPEAKERSo it's basically just a browser based OS,

1:04:15SPEAKERit's quite capable and it performs really well

1:04:19SPEAKEReven on like fourth gen Intel machines.

1:04:22SPEAKER- Is that something that Google themselves

1:04:23SPEAKERare putting out, it looks like?

1:04:25SPEAKER- I don't know about that, I don't know where it comes from.

1:04:28SPEAKER- Yeah, there's a page right here on support.google.com

1:04:31SPEAKERabout like Chrome OS Flex installation guide.

1:04:34SPEAKER- There you go.

1:04:35SPEAKER- So I guess that must be something

1:04:36SPEAKERthey're putting out themselves, that's interesting.

1:04:37SPEAKER- I put it on my old MacBook, it's a 14 inch,

1:04:41SPEAKER13 inch error from like 2012 or 2013.

1:04:45SPEAKER- I should maybe think about that.

1:04:47SPEAKERI've got a 2011 MacBook error that is like,

1:04:50SPEAKERI think it's like High Sierra is the most recent Mac OS,

1:04:53SPEAKERlike it's so out of date.

1:04:55SPEAKER- We might've gotten those at the same time, Brad,

1:04:57SPEAKER'cause those might be the ones we got

1:04:58SPEAKERwhen we were at whiskey.

1:04:59SPEAKER- Yeah, that sounds about right.

1:05:01SPEAKERAnyway, I've put like Ubuntu on that thing in the past

1:05:04SPEAKERand like this was five years ago or something,

1:05:06SPEAKERbut it was still enough of a pain in the ass

1:05:08SPEAKERthat maybe this Chrome OS for a better idea.

1:05:11SPEAKER- This is pretty good.

1:05:13SPEAKERSo yeah, there's options, I guess is what I'm saying.

1:05:16SPEAKERDon't panic, but we wanted to talk about it

1:05:19SPEAKERin case people have questions

1:05:20SPEAKERand we didn't think it was a whole episode worth.

1:05:22SPEAKER- Yeah.

1:05:23SPEAKER- So there you go, the astronauts probably okay,

1:05:27SPEAKERBoeing less so, AI's got problems,

1:05:31SPEAKERand Windows 10 is gonna go away next year.

1:05:34SPEAKER- The AI bubble might be close to bursting.

1:05:36SPEAKER- Look, one of the things they did say in this article

1:05:39SPEAKERthat kind of bummed me out is the bubbles pop slow now,

1:05:41SPEAKERespecially when people have invested this much money, so.

1:05:44SPEAKER- Fair, fair.

1:05:45SPEAKER- Probably okay for a little bit,

1:05:47SPEAKERbut you know, I don't know, we can dream.

1:05:50SPEAKER- Yeah, anyway, hey, look, three podcasts in one.

1:05:52SPEAKER- Yeah, three podcasts in one.

1:05:54SPEAKER- Where else can you get that kind of value?

1:05:57SPEAKER- And if you would like to find out

1:05:58SPEAKERhow to get even more value,

1:05:59SPEAKERyou can go to patreon.com/techpod.

1:06:02SPEAKERAgain, that's patreon.com/techpod,

1:06:04SPEAKERwhere for five bucks a month,

1:06:05SPEAKERyou can become a supporting listener of the show.

1:06:09SPEAKERThat's right, we are a listener supported show

1:06:12SPEAKERand without you all, we wouldn't be here.

1:06:14SPEAKERSo we appreciate you and would love to bring more good folks

1:06:18SPEAKERinto the realm where you get access

1:06:20SPEAKERto the monthly patron exclusive episode.

1:06:23SPEAKERWe had an idea for a new one, oh.

1:06:25SPEAKER- We didn't write it down, did we?

1:06:26SPEAKER- No, no, we did.

1:06:27SPEAKERI'm gonna put it here so we remember.

1:06:29SPEAKERIt was a rejected third story

1:06:31SPEAKERabout Sony not manufacturing

1:06:33SPEAKERBlu-ray recordable discs anymore.

1:06:35SPEAKERAnd I was cleaning up my garage last weekend

1:06:37SPEAKERand I found a whole big spindle of old recordable media.

1:06:40SPEAKERAnd I was like, I wonder how much of this is still good.

1:06:42SPEAKERIt's been in my garage for the last 10 years.

1:06:44SPEAKERI'm gonna just open up a stream and get an external drive

1:06:47SPEAKERand put the discs in and see which ones work

1:06:50SPEAKERand see what's on them.

1:06:51SPEAKER- All right.

1:06:51SPEAKER- So maybe that's a patron episode this month.

1:06:53SPEAKERI don't know.

1:06:54SPEAKER- That sounds fun.

1:06:54SPEAKER- Anything's possible.

1:06:55SPEAKERIt could be really boring, it could go either way.

1:06:58SPEAKER- That sounds fun.

1:06:58SPEAKERI'm gonna say this also,

1:07:01SPEAKERjust so we don't forget about it.

1:07:02SPEAKERAnother patron episode idea we had

1:07:04SPEAKERwas maybe a how the podcast is made.

1:07:06SPEAKER- Oh yeah.

1:07:07SPEAKER- Kind of thing like from soup to nuts.

1:07:09SPEAKERIs that a phrase people use?

1:07:09SPEAKER- Soup to nuts.

1:07:10SPEAKERI had a guy who worked for it at the University of Tennessee

1:07:13SPEAKERwho said soup to nuts.

1:07:15SPEAKER- I'm in a bad habit of throwing out idioms

1:07:18SPEAKERand metaphors and so forth.

1:07:19SPEAKERI don't necessarily a hundred percent have a handle on.

1:07:23SPEAKER- Yeah, I would think you'd go nuts to soup.

1:07:24SPEAKERCause like I don't put a lot of nuts in my soups.

1:07:27SPEAKER- Yeah.

1:07:28SPEAKER- Maybe peanuts in like Thai soups sometimes.

1:07:30SPEAKER- Oh, I thought it was describing the course,

1:07:33SPEAKERlike the entire arc of a long sit-down meal.

1:07:36SPEAKERLike you get soup first and then you get a salad

1:07:38SPEAKERand then your entree.

1:07:39SPEAKER- And then you get cheese and zest course at the end.

1:07:41SPEAKER- But who gets nuts at the very end of the meal?

1:07:44SPEAKERI don't know.

1:07:44SPEAKER- It feels very much like a country metaphor for me.

1:07:48SPEAKER- Sure.

1:07:48SPEAKER- I don't know.

1:07:49SPEAKERIf you know what soup to nuts means,

1:07:50SPEAKERyou can post it in the Discord.

1:07:51SPEAKERYou get access to that when you're a patron as well.

1:07:53SPEAKER- It's full of lovely people, beautiful nerds

1:07:55SPEAKERwho talk about interesting stuff pretty much all day long.

1:07:58SPEAKERAnd like learn all sorts of good stuff there.

1:08:02SPEAKERAs always, we would like to thank our executive producer

1:08:04SPEAKERto your patrons, including Andrew Slosky,

1:08:07SPEAKERPaddle Creek Games, makers of Fractured Veil,

1:08:09SPEAKERJordan Lippett, Bunny Fiend, Twinkle Twinkie,

1:08:12SPEAKERDavid Allen, James Kamik, and Pantheon,

1:08:14SPEAKERmakers of the HS3 high-speed 3D printer.

1:08:16SPEAKERThank you all so much.

1:08:17SPEAKER- Yes, thank you.

1:08:19SPEAKER- And I guess that'll do it for us this week.

1:08:22SPEAKER- It will, I can confirm.

1:08:23SPEAKERThat will do it for us.

1:08:24SPEAKER- This is the end of the show.

1:08:25SPEAKERWe will be back next week with another edition

1:08:27SPEAKERof the TechPod.

1:08:28SPEAKERUntil then, maybe go update some firmware.

1:08:31SPEAKERIt's fun, fun and profitable.

1:08:34SPEAKERSee you next time.

1:08:34SPEAKERBye.

1:08:35SPEAKER(upbeat music)