237: Should We Really Be Teaching Machines to Lie?

00:00SPEAKERI discovered something beautiful this morning, or terrible, or maybe both.

00:03SPEAKEROoh.

00:05SPEAKERMy file hoarding, my data hoarding ways are well documented.

00:08SPEAKERWe all are aware of your proclivities.

00:10SPEAKERAcross my Windows machine, so I run everything, you know, the void tools, everything.

00:15SPEAKERYeah.

00:15SPEAKERSearch indexer, everybody should use it.

00:17SPEAKERIt searches everything.

00:19SPEAKEREverybody should use everything, is my stance.

00:21SPEAKERDoes it search your NAS too?

00:23SPEAKERYes. Well, you have to mount the network shares as drives into everything, because that works just fine.

00:29SPEAKEROkay.

00:30SPEAKERAnyway, across my Windows machine and NAS, it's like 2.7 million files or something like that.

00:36SPEAKERThat's a buttload of files.

00:37SPEAKERIt's a lot.

00:38SPEAKERAlthough, you know, in my defense, at one point, I dumped a bunch of old hard drives that had old Windows installs on them.

00:43SPEAKERDid you keep the Windows installs?

00:45SPEAKERI may not have gone through the contents of those drives in the last, like, however many years it's been since I did that,

00:50SPEAKERso there's at least, like, a couple of very old Windows installs just sitting there.

00:54SPEAKERThat's kind of nice, though.

00:55SPEAKERThat's a lot of files.

00:56SPEAKERSometimes you need a Windows 98, you know?

00:58SPEAKERIt's weird, sometimes I'll search in everything, because it indexes, like, you know, there's a bunch of,

01:02SPEAKERremember when they stored your, I guess it was your favorites they were storing as .url files?

01:07SPEAKERLike, your recently browsed.

01:08SPEAKERAnd for a long time, your, like, desktop and stuff was in the Windows folder too.

01:12SPEAKERSo I'll randomly just come across, like, a bunch of links to websites I was browsing 15 plus years ago.

01:18SPEAKERYeah, of course.

01:18SPEAKERIt's a weird thing.

01:19SPEAKERAnyway, I discovered seven, eight years worth of email.

01:24SPEAKERFrom what time period are we talking here?

01:26SPEAKERStarting from the age of when email started.

01:29SPEAKERStarting from the age, basically, like, 18.

01:32SPEAKEROh, boy.

01:33SPEAKERSo, like, 97.

01:34SPEAKERWhat would you have used, was it, like, Outlook Express or something for email back then?

01:38SPEAKERWhat did you use?

01:39SPEAKERPart of this was I discovered the entirety of my inbox from GameSpot.

01:42SPEAKERFive straight years of work email at GameSpot.

01:45SPEAKERWow.

01:45SPEAKERThat's an Outlook file.

01:46SPEAKERThat is an almost four gigabyte .PST file, which is an Outlook mailbox file.

01:53SPEAKERI'm excited to go through that because, like, most of the stuff I wrote for GameSpot is probably still in there as attachments.

02:00SPEAKERWell, the original drafts for sure.

02:02SPEAKERAnd then you probably also have, you probably also have a lot of stuff like, like, invites to press conferences and stuff like that.

02:09SPEAKERMeetings for...

02:09SPEAKEROh, absolutely.

02:10SPEAKERYes.

02:10SPEAKERWe have an unnamed title and then it turns out to be Halo 2.

02:13SPEAKERIt's going to be a goldmine of reminiscing about old work stuff.

02:16SPEAKERBut anyway, I found, like, three, four, five years of email from before that job even.

02:21SPEAKERA lot of it was from my shell account at the university, and I think I used Pine.

02:24SPEAKEROK.

02:25SPEAKERI think a lot of this email is Pine because I found these files that are just like sent dash messages with no extension.

02:32SPEAKEROK.

02:33SPEAKERAnd they're just text files?

02:34SPEAKERAnd yeah, like one of them is like 15 megabytes.

02:36SPEAKERAnd I was like, well, this is probably unusable.

02:38SPEAKERI don't even know what this goes with.

02:39SPEAKERSure enough, it's just plain text.

02:41SPEAKERWow.

02:42SPEAKERAll the file attachments are in there as like, what is that blocky plain text?

02:47SPEAKERMime.

02:47SPEAKERYeah, those are like mime attachments.

02:49SPEAKERYeah, that's a 15 megabyte email attachment at that time period is a monstrous thing to do.

02:53SPEAKERBy the way, you're a bad person.

02:55SPEAKERI'm just judging.

02:56SPEAKERWell, I was I was doing freelance writing for Game Stuff by then.

02:59SPEAKERThis was still in college, but there's a ton of emails in there,

03:02SPEAKERlike the first freelance correspondence I ever had on top of all my university stuff.

03:06SPEAKERAnd having gone over some of these emails, you still emailed your friends about stuff back then.

03:12SPEAKERYeah, email was the thing I used to talk to my friends almost exclusively.

03:15SPEAKERAnd then at work also.

03:17SPEAKERYeah, like I found I found an email from from whenever the Wing Commander movie came out

03:21SPEAKERbecause it was me talking about going to see Wing Commander with a couple of friends.

03:24SPEAKERBut like the email was a friend of mine from college.

03:28SPEAKERWe both lived in the same area and we're home for Christmas.

03:30SPEAKERAnd she emailed me.

03:32SPEAKERIt was just like, hey, what are you doing?

03:33SPEAKERI'm sitting around.

03:33SPEAKERI haven't left the house.

03:34SPEAKERLike I'm going crazy here.

03:35SPEAKERYou want to go watch a movie or something?

03:37SPEAKERAnd it's like, remember when you emailed people to go do stuff?

03:40SPEAKERI mean, that stopped for me actually probably around the time I started working at Tested.

03:44SPEAKERBecause that's when text took over, right?

03:46SPEAKERLike before that, I remember when we used to have a semi regular rock band night.

03:50SPEAKERThere was like every other Friday at my house in the, let's say, rock band launch until 2009 probably time period.

04:00SPEAKERAnd that had an email thread attached to it that just like every every the Wednesday before somebody would say,

04:06SPEAKERhey, is it are we on this week?

04:08SPEAKERAnd I would either say yes or no and tell people whether we were making pizza or to bring what kind of food to bring or whatever.

04:14SPEAKERAnd then like then 30 people would descend on my house and play rock band until two o'clock in the morning.

04:18SPEAKERThat's that's a good time.

04:19SPEAKERIt was a good time.

04:20SPEAKERI assume most people do the same thing when they try to remember dates of just triangulating against other events that they definitely remember the dates for.

04:27SPEAKERYeah, probably.

04:29SPEAKERYeah, because I just looked up like like Wing Commander came out in March 99.

04:32SPEAKERSo I can tell you that must have been maybe that was spring break.

04:34SPEAKERI don't know.

04:35SPEAKERBut it was right before Matrix came out, right?

04:37SPEAKERBecause that was a May movie, I think.

04:39SPEAKERYeah, you're right.

04:39SPEAKERThat was like a month or two before that.

04:41SPEAKERAnyway, early 99 would have been like I think like ICQ was probably just really starting to take off like I am was not quite a thing yet.

04:48SPEAKERRight.

04:48SPEAKERLike I think I think that's probably about the time I got on ICQ.

04:51SPEAKERNo, we had I had been using ICQ for years by that point.

04:54SPEAKEROK, so I started with ICQ while I was still in college.

04:57SPEAKERAnd by 98, I was out by the middle of 98.

05:00SPEAKERI was out in fairness.

05:01SPEAKERI have an eight digit ICQ number.

05:03SPEAKERSo maybe I was a late comer.

05:04SPEAKEROh, yes.

05:05SPEAKERYeah, I'm a five or six.

05:06SPEAKERWhat?

05:06SPEAKERI'm a six one, one, two, nine, six, four, five, seven.

05:09SPEAKEROh, so, OK, I had one before that, but I had a bad password on and lost it.

05:13SPEAKERSeven is good, but not elite here.

05:15SPEAKERI had I had a six and then like I did.

05:20SPEAKERI didn't use good passwords back then.

05:21SPEAKERWho knew?

05:22SPEAKERWho knew that password was not a good password?

05:26SPEAKERSounds pretty good to me.

05:27SPEAKERSix is impressive.

05:29SPEAKERAt Maximum PC, I used to do letters.

05:32SPEAKERLike when I when I would do freelance, I think I had a website set up that I could just dump a zip folder with all the images.

05:39SPEAKERAnd it and then I would send them a link because I don't think I could send future attachments that were more than like four or five megs.

05:45SPEAKERAnd they always wanted really crazy high resolution screenshots.

05:47SPEAKERIt was a different time.

05:49SPEAKERMy all my email from that era is locked in Lotus Domino files, Lotus Notes files that are on old hard drives in my garage.

05:56SPEAKERI bet you could figure that out.

05:57SPEAKERI have I found I already found an open source utility to open and browse the contents of outlook PSD's today.

06:03SPEAKERSo I'm sure that's been handled by now.

06:05SPEAKERI bet the kind of people who are really into Lotus Notes probably did not make those kinds of tools.

06:12SPEAKERBut that's fair.

06:14SPEAKERAnyway, the upshot of all this is I don't recommend reading emails written by your 20 some 25 year old like 20 not not 25 year old,

06:22SPEAKERbut 25 years ago self is what I'm trying to say, especially if you were a teenager just old.

06:27SPEAKERThe thing I'm curious about is if you have the first thing you ever bought on the Internet in there that you do.

06:33SPEAKEROne of the emails was me emailing my mom asking if anything from buy dot com had shown up.

06:39SPEAKEROh, you must have gotten some DVDs.

06:41SPEAKERYes, I think that was right.

06:42SPEAKERI'm hoping to see if I can maybe find out what I use to buy like the parts for my first completely from the ground up computer.

06:48SPEAKEROh, there you go.

06:50SPEAKERWhich was 97.

06:51SPEAKERAnyway, so doing digital archaeology on yourself is a real trip.

06:56SPEAKERThis is a good hobby.

07:25SPEAKERWelcome to Brad Wilby to tech pod.

07:28SPEAKERI'm will I am Brad.

07:29SPEAKERHello, Brad.

07:30SPEAKERI'm gonna go tell you I had I ate too much lunch.

07:33SPEAKERWhat did you eat?

07:34SPEAKERI ate.

07:36SPEAKEROK, well, it was purported to be a Nashville hot chicken sando, which I quite like, you know, you take a fried chicken sandwich and then you dip it in like nuclear hot oil and it gets all greasy and horrible and good.

07:48SPEAKERThis isn't exactly that.

07:49SPEAKERThis was just a nice fried chicken sandwich that was a little bit spicy that they then put some really spicy like a ole on.

07:55SPEAKERIt was fine.

07:56SPEAKERIt was the sandwich was good.

07:57SPEAKERThey're like, look, the meat was cooked nicely.

07:59SPEAKERIt had a better coleslaw and at the sauce is fine.

08:02SPEAKERI hope the meat was cooked nicely.

08:03SPEAKERYeah, and it had some pickles like pickles are an important component of this whole deal.

08:07SPEAKERThere's chicken after all, but I'm a little low.

08:09SPEAKERYeah, nobody likes rare chicken, huh?

08:10SPEAKERNo, it's weird.

08:12SPEAKERAlthough I saw that I saw a video from video yesterday of people eating raw chicken in Japan.

08:16SPEAKERThat's the thing people do in Japan.

08:18SPEAKERYeah, I don't know how common it is, but I think it's possible.

08:22SPEAKERWe after last week's episode, people were talking about salmonella and food safety and we learned a couple of things.

08:27SPEAKEROne is that rarely it does happen rarely that you can get salmonella inside the eggs, which I didn't know.

08:33SPEAKERG. Heinemann pointed that out in the discord.

08:35SPEAKEROkay, that's good to know.

08:36SPEAKERI have always been extremely diligent about washing my hands after handling raw egg whites.

08:41SPEAKERThe other is that that is a uniquely American problem

08:44SPEAKERand that our factory farms have almost certainly caused that problem as well as having like salmonella on or ecola.

08:52SPEAKERI can't remember on greens and other things that typically wouldn't have exposure to that kind of stuff.

08:57SPEAKERSo good job America.

08:58SPEAKERYep.

08:59SPEAKERGood stuff all in the name of efficiency.

09:01SPEAKERI think I think the point is in Japan chicken is farmed a little bit differently.

09:06SPEAKERMaybe it's okay to eat there.

09:07SPEAKERMaybe it's less of a problem.

09:08SPEAKERYeah, like like I have heard of pork sashimi before

09:12SPEAKERbut they have like a special process there which is maybe not something you want to think about.

09:16SPEAKERWell, the thing about pork is everybody's always worried about trichinosis,

09:20SPEAKERwhich is why the recommendation is 165 degrees.

09:23SPEAKERBut nobody's gotten trichinosis from pork in like 75 years.

09:27SPEAKERInteresting.

09:28SPEAKERIn the United States almost all trichinosis cases are from game meat.

09:32SPEAKERSo elk and stuff like that is my understanding.

09:35SPEAKERThat's what that's what that's what America's Test Kitchen said when they recommended a controversial 135 Fahrenheit pork chop cooking temperature,

09:43SPEAKERwhich it turns out makes pork chops delicious instead of like hard lumps of coal.

09:48SPEAKERSo there's our food talk for this week.

09:49SPEAKERI guess I'm sure I'm sure people are probably tired of hearing me say it.

09:53SPEAKERI did I ate horse carpaccio in Japan.

09:56SPEAKEREw.

09:57SPEAKERSorry, I raised horses.

09:59SPEAKERI have a hard time with horses or seeding.

10:01SPEAKERIt wasn't it wasn't bad.

10:03SPEAKERI mean, the French eat horses, too.

10:05SPEAKERIt's fine.

10:05SPEAKERIt's fine.

10:06SPEAKERBut yeah, anyway, I think I think there were like people from other companies there

10:10SPEAKERand it was it was a good idea for me to just go along with the things.

10:13SPEAKERLook, we had I don't know why I'm weird about horses.

10:16SPEAKERI think it's because we kept them as pets.

10:18SPEAKERYeah, I get it.

10:19SPEAKERLike we had cattle and we had pigs at different times.

10:22SPEAKERAnd like I wouldn't think I just I slaughtered a pig and we'll eat bacon all day long.

10:28SPEAKERBut yeah, the horses.

10:29SPEAKERIt's yeah, it's weird.

10:30SPEAKERAnyway, the what, Brad, what are we talking about this week?

10:34SPEAKERWhat's the topic?

10:35SPEAKERYou know who will voraciously consume any animal without remorse?

10:38SPEAKERIs it is it Steve Ballmer?

10:40SPEAKERIt's Microsoft.

10:41SPEAKERYes, I bet.

10:42SPEAKERI bet Steve Ballmer.

10:46SPEAKERI bet Steve Ballmer would eat a bald eagle if it was served to him.

10:48SPEAKEROh, man, like there's there was a genre of short story for a while in the early 2000s.

10:54SPEAKERThat was like novelty protein hunting clubs and you know, you know where those always end.

11:00SPEAKERThey start with lions and elephants and stuff.

11:02SPEAKERAnd then it ends with the most dangerous game, Steve Ballmer, apparently, of course.

11:09SPEAKERBut yeah, so this like something's cooking at Microsoft these days.

11:12SPEAKERYes, good segue.

11:14SPEAKERAs have many companies, Microsoft along with Apple and Google are quietly

11:20SPEAKERand actually not so quietly adding a bunch of kind of, I want to say questionable,

11:26SPEAKERbut maybe iffy is better AI features to their operating systems.

11:30SPEAKERYes, we just heard that presumably the next version of iOS is going to be integrated with chat GPT in some horrible way.

11:36SPEAKEROh, I did not hear that.

11:38SPEAKERYeah, Google's putting all their Gemini stuff in in Android and on their web stuff.

11:45SPEAKEROh, yeah, the AI powered search results on Google have been having a banger of a week.

11:50SPEAKERYeah, like I'm going to go tell you that rollout went so badly for Google that it kind of clocked my I'd been thinking that we were going to have to deal with this AI stuff.

11:59SPEAKERThe general just to be clear, two types of AI, right, two types of machine learning.

12:03SPEAKERThere's the stuff that's trained on like well-defined tagged, denoted, well-structured data sets.

12:10SPEAKERSo things like this is my favorite example because I use it a lot.

12:13SPEAKERBut there's a there's a couple of tools that do.

12:16SPEAKERThey can scan like radiology scans and detect tumors that often a radiology or not often, but sometimes a radiologist will miss.

12:23SPEAKERAnd in many cases, those are like life-saving detections, right?

12:26SPEAKERThose are great uses of machine learning.

12:28SPEAKERLove that. It's fantastic.

12:30SPEAKERThe general purpose AI that kind of is trained across the entirety of the human created Internet.

12:36SPEAKERAnd it takes a lot of energy to do the training and and produces increasingly questionable results,

12:44SPEAKERdepending on how much more AI generated stuff is fed into the into the training mechanisms.

12:49SPEAKERSeems less good. Yeah, yes.

12:52SPEAKERDLSS is another go to example.

12:54SPEAKERI like to say that's great.

12:56SPEAKERLike that's, you know, finite, manageable, really useful data set, right?

13:01SPEAKERIt's not like there's not a giant industry of people writing image upscaling algorithms who are suddenly being put out of work now

13:06SPEAKERbecause we're getting a better one through training and all that or whatever.

13:09SPEAKERNope. So anyway, Google, Microsoft, Apple is seemingly now increasingly have been adding this stuff.

13:17SPEAKERMicrosoft has announced a couple, one big one, which is copilot.

13:21SPEAKERAnd then just last week or the week before they rolled out this thing called Recall,

13:25SPEAKERwhich is part of a new copilot plus branding exercise for for new mobile PCs and new laptops, basically.

13:34SPEAKERYeah, we should say going into the well, two things I was going to go back to Apple real fast.

13:38SPEAKERI kind of assumed Apple would do their own thing here, like kind of gin up their own service.

13:42SPEAKEROr I mean, I know that's such a big undertaking that even a company the size of Apple might not want to do it all themselves.

13:48SPEAKERBut just going straight to chat GPT by name is a little surprising to me.

13:52SPEAKERI don't know if they're they signed a deal with with open AI.

13:56SPEAKERI don't know if they were going directly to chat GPT by name.

13:58SPEAKERWell, so and that's the other thing I was going to say we should mention about Microsoft.

14:01SPEAKERThey have poured a tremendous amount of money into open AI.

14:04SPEAKERYes, like billions of dollars.

14:05SPEAKERI think 10, 10 billion dollar investment.

14:07SPEAKERYeah. So so copilot has been around a while.

14:10SPEAKERIt launched last year.

14:12SPEAKERYeah. Actually, do you remember GitHub copilot predated even that?

14:17SPEAKERThat's been around since I thought it was sooner, right?

14:19SPEAKERI found 2021 when I looked it up.

14:21SPEAKERBut that was just that was just the GitHub thing that generates code for you, basically.

14:25SPEAKERYeah, it's like, well, so they've had it in a couple of different ways.

14:27SPEAKERThere was a type ahead thing that would kind of predict what you were going to type next for a while.

14:30SPEAKERAnd then it became a hey, write me a Python script that sorts these things from A to B.

14:35SPEAKERYeah, of course, of course, chat GPT does the same thing now.

14:37SPEAKERSo that's not unique anymore.

14:39SPEAKERYeah, it's a copilot is their branding for all of the AI features in all of their products.

14:44SPEAKERThey're in Microsoft, they're in Windows, they're in Edge,

14:47SPEAKERthey're in Bing, they're in GitHub, as you mentioned, Microsoft Dynamics,

14:50SPEAKERwhich is a like a data management data analysis tool as as as it all that warehouse.

14:57SPEAKERYeah, I would call it a signature Windows feature at this point.

15:01SPEAKERHold on, just because I think that's what Dynamics does.

15:03SPEAKERI looked at the website for about 10 minutes this morning for Windows for Microsoft Dynamics.

15:07SPEAKERAnd I honestly I was like, I don't this is this is not a thing that I know what it works.

15:13SPEAKERWhat you should use this for.

15:15SPEAKERYeah, I mean, my some kind of analytics was immediately my assumption at that name.

15:18SPEAKERSo maybe yeah.

15:19SPEAKERSo anyway, like they announced copilot a while ago.

15:24SPEAKERIt's been in Windows. They force it into Windows for a while.

15:26SPEAKERYou turned it off and then they would turn it back on.

15:28SPEAKERI think they're maybe done doing that because people got fairly upset about that.

15:32SPEAKERBut in the Windows context,

15:34SPEAKERit works as a little thing that lives in the lower right corner of your screen

15:37SPEAKERand you click on it and you can ask it to do things and it doesn't do them.

15:40SPEAKERThis is the kind of short version of how I don't know if you've engaged with it at all.

15:45SPEAKERI went into the group policy editor,

15:47SPEAKERwhich we'll get to and disabled it basically as fast as I could.

15:51SPEAKERYeah, so I in the interest of trying things and trying new things.

15:54SPEAKERI have used it for a couple of things over the over the last couple months.

15:59SPEAKERYeah, I should let me let me amend that.

16:01SPEAKERI thought I had disabled it or I did disabled in the policy editor,

16:04SPEAKERbut it still runs in Edge for me.

16:07SPEAKERI can still hit window C. Yeah, it'll just pop up an edge window with the text field and I used it.

16:12SPEAKERI tried it some this morning.

16:13SPEAKERSo I guess I guess the actual engine is still running

16:16SPEAKERor available under the hood even if you turn it off into UI.

16:19SPEAKERSo this is the this is the thing that I think is causing them problems.

16:23SPEAKERNow with this recall rollout, we'll talk about it a little bit,

16:25SPEAKERbut they didn't they make it easy for you to hide the button that triggers it,

16:30SPEAKERbut it's difficult to get it to turn off and a lot of people.

16:35SPEAKERWell, let's table this for a minute.

16:37SPEAKERWe'll get back to this. It's it's the windows the co-pilot plus branding is also coming to PC's.

16:46SPEAKERIt's a it's like a it's like a spec basically for their PC's and it says,

16:51SPEAKERhey, you have a certain amount of AI processing capability via what's called an NPU

16:56SPEAKERand neural processing unit, which is capable of doing like I think it's 40 teraflops

17:01SPEAKERor tops for 40 trillion operations per second in order to run.

17:05SPEAKERSo the idea is that you can do a lot of the stuff that typically has to be set up to cloud servers

17:10SPEAKERlocally on this machine, which is a good thing.

17:12SPEAKERI think you know, it offloads the power requirements from the from the cloud, which is good.

17:17SPEAKERIt's also nice for the people providing the AI services

17:19SPEAKERbecause they don't have to pay for giant compute clusters.

17:23SPEAKERYou still have to pay for the energy used to train the algorithms that run,

17:27SPEAKERbut it does mean that you get a faster quicker response on the on the phone on the device

17:31SPEAKERkind of analogous to when Apple added the voice acceleration stuff to phones a few years ago.

17:38SPEAKERSo instead of Siri going to the internet and coming back and it taking 300 milliseconds.

17:43SPEAKERIt's basically instantaneous now, right? They're adding a keyboard key for it for co-pilot, right?

17:51SPEAKERYes. We know it's going to look like it.

17:53SPEAKERWell, I like it. There is a co-pilot logo. It's going to be the co-pilot logo.

17:55SPEAKERYeah, but it's it's basically it's a it's like two squiggles with blue and pink.

18:01SPEAKERIt replaces the right menu key that Windows keyboards have had forever and no one ever uses.

18:05SPEAKERYeah, I'm not sure I've ever hit. Okay, I'm hitting it now maybe for the first time ever.

18:09SPEAKERYeah, we don't actually my keyboard doesn't actually have that.

18:12SPEAKERIt removed it and in its place is a function key that lets me adjust layers on the keyboard.

18:18SPEAKERYeah, I got you know, I guess left-handed people might if they're if they're left-handed mousing all the time.

18:22SPEAKERThey probably use the right-handed modifiers.

18:25SPEAKERMaybe I mean, but like it's only 15% of the population.

18:28SPEAKERSo who cares? Sorry lefties woof you can for what it's worth.

18:33SPEAKERYou can reassign key functionality in Windows pretty easily.

18:36SPEAKERYeah, it's funny. I actually dug into like where the key was coming from

18:40SPEAKERand whether they're just remapping it's unclear whether it's getting a different Unicode entry.

18:47SPEAKERBut also it functions if you have a keyboard or a device that doesn't if you really want the functionality,

18:53SPEAKERyou can just bind a key to Windows key plus C and that'll have the same effect.

18:57SPEAKERYes. In order, let's see their pitch is kind of anemic.

19:04SPEAKERI would say in general for co-pilot when you go to the co-pilot page,

19:06SPEAKERit doesn't it just tells you it's going to make your computing easier

19:09SPEAKERand it doesn't really give you some concrete examples of them.

19:12SPEAKERI found that to be the case in a lot of the pitches I read for the whole co-pilot plus initiative

19:20SPEAKERand a lot of other AI stuff for that matter.

19:22SPEAKERThey are often pretty short on concrete examples of what you're going to do with it.

19:27SPEAKERYeah, I think that's like if you look at the rabbit like the failed AI hardware devices like the rabbit

19:35SPEAKERand I can't remember the other one but the pins that you put on your shirt

19:39SPEAKERthat are supposed to replace your phones and just do things for you.

19:43SPEAKERThey all are very similar or alternately they promised something really specific

19:48SPEAKERand then when they actually shipped the hardware, it doesn't do the thing that they promised.

19:51SPEAKERYeah. So anyway, it's anemic pitches.

19:58SPEAKERWhen I looked on the internet for stuff that things people are using this for,

20:04SPEAKERthe first article that I got was about a 7,000 word article that was just a bunch of the repurposed

20:13SPEAKERwritten in slightly different variations of you can use it for data analysis

20:17SPEAKERor you can use it for writing first drafts.

20:20SPEAKERBut like that said across 25 lists of 10 items each that was just like machine generated search engine spam.

20:27SPEAKERSo I mean, I think maybe we're doomed.

20:30SPEAKERYeah, probably.

20:31SPEAKERThe next thing was computer words article titled seven ways to use copilot, right?

20:36SPEAKERIt starts with how to turn it on recommends it for reverse image search,

20:40SPEAKERwhich can already do using TinEye or Google Images.

20:43SPEAKERIt says that it's nice for writing a bad first draft.

20:45SPEAKERIf you have writer's block

20:47SPEAKERand have a hard time looking at a blank page that I can actually kind of see

20:52SPEAKERand then it warns you that it lies a lot

20:53SPEAKERand also that it's less useful than it used to be before closing with here's how to hide us.

20:58SPEAKERYou don't have to see it anymore.

20:59SPEAKERYep, and that was the closest I could find to like a hey,

21:02SPEAKERhere's some tips for using copilot.

21:04SPEAKERSo it's going to be an interesting next couple of years

21:07SPEAKERas these things as the rubber meets the road on all these features.

21:09SPEAKERThey really get out there wide.

21:11SPEAKERYeah, and we said we see how much people actually find them useful

21:15SPEAKERand like it's weird because usually when there's a big new Windows feature,

21:18SPEAKERlike when when when Apple does a new photos app,

21:22SPEAKERthe first thing you see is all the Mac sites jamming out.

21:25SPEAKERHey, here's 10 secret hacks for the photos app.

21:28SPEAKERMaybe maybe those stories don't get search traffic anymore

21:31SPEAKERbecause of the privilege proliferation of machine-generated garbage on the web,

21:36SPEAKERbut it was shocking to me that I couldn't find any actual like,

21:39SPEAKERhey, here are some copilot tips that were that were seemed substantive

21:43SPEAKERand it's possible I didn't dig deep enough.

21:44SPEAKERI spent like 45 minutes looking for stuff and nothing nothing seemed good.

21:49SPEAKERIt doesn't seem to touch GPUs utilization.

21:51SPEAKERIt doesn't at all which it's all going to the cotton back

21:54SPEAKERand in the little bit I tried it this morning.

21:56SPEAKERI had task manager open GPU usage was sitting at like 1% the whole time.

22:00SPEAKERI was asking you things so it does seem entirely off-site.

22:04SPEAKERI wonder on the scale of something like Windows with I mean,

22:07SPEAKERI know Windows install base has dropped somewhat,

22:11SPEAKERbut it's still still billions, right?

22:13SPEAKERIt's an enormous number of people like I wonder

22:14SPEAKERwhat the economics are of supporting this

22:16SPEAKERfor quite a few people who are not even paying for Windows,

22:20SPEAKERyou know, like at some point was the stop being sustainable.

22:23SPEAKERI mean, and I guess also I wonder what the graph looks like

22:25SPEAKERfor the cost of computing the stuff in data centers.

22:28SPEAKERI don't know if and when that starts getting a lot cheaper.

22:30SPEAKERWell, so the there's two sides to that question of one is

22:35SPEAKERif Microsoft was paying for data center usage the say data compute

22:39SPEAKERand data center is the same way that you

22:41SPEAKERor I would pay for compute and data centers.

22:43SPEAKERI think this is prohibitively expensive if people actually use it.

22:48SPEAKERThe other angle is that Microsoft is their big big chunk of their business

22:53SPEAKERthese days is the Azure compute cloud which includes both CPU GPU

22:56SPEAKERand Xbox instances and presumably they're billing themselves

23:02SPEAKERfor compute for picking up slack compute usage

23:06SPEAKERin a different way than they would Bill say you

23:08SPEAKERor me or sure, you know Google or whoever.

23:11SPEAKERYeah, and if they have surplus capacity there,

23:13SPEAKERmaybe it's not a big deal.

23:14SPEAKERBut you know machine learning hardware is extremely expensive.

23:17SPEAKERAnd so if they're you know,

23:18SPEAKERif that's taking a huge chunk out of that business

23:20SPEAKERthat is not going to pay in customers.

23:22SPEAKERI don't know if that becomes a problem at some point.

23:24SPEAKERI think the point is you always have slack in those businesses

23:27SPEAKERbecause you have to have like you have to have enough capacity

23:30SPEAKERto spin up and down as demand Peaks and abs is with time zones.

23:34SPEAKEREven that makes sense.

23:35SPEAKERUm, I think the one of the things that I thought was going to happen

23:39SPEAKERfor a long time that I don't think is going to happen.

23:41SPEAKERGiven the trends of the last few years is I assumed at some point

23:45SPEAKERcompute would trend towards zero in the same way

23:47SPEAKERthat storage costs trended towards zero for the whole for a long long time.

23:50SPEAKERI don't think we're going to see that anymore.

23:52SPEAKERI think it like the demand for compute seems to keep increasing to the point

23:57SPEAKERthat I don't think the prices are going to go like

23:59SPEAKERwe're not going to have slack compute because adding compute is expensive.

24:02SPEAKERIt costs a lot of power and until we're firing data centers into space

24:07SPEAKERand letting dealing with with massive amounts of thermal thermal

24:13SPEAKERrate radiative cooling and generating a lot of power online in space.

24:17SPEAKERI don't think it's a I think I think it's going to be a issue to be clear.

24:21SPEAKERYou're talking about the the cost of the energy requirements

24:23SPEAKERfor this kind of type stuff.

24:24SPEAKERNot the hardware not the a lot of ways.

24:26SPEAKEROkay, if you look at the like the cost of setting up a big compute data center

24:30SPEAKERis going up instead of going down still.

24:33SPEAKERSo yeah, I wonder how much of that though is due to NVIDIA

24:36SPEAKERstill kind of having a stranglehold on this markets.

24:38SPEAKERLike everybody is scrambling to catch up to them

24:40SPEAKERand who knows if or when they'll ever get there.

24:42SPEAKERBut like at some point there's going to be more competition in that space.

24:46SPEAKERI think I think that there's the the big issue.

24:49SPEAKERThe big issues are that cooling and and power.

24:55SPEAKERLike we've reached a point where the amount of compute you're generating

24:58SPEAKERwith the same wad of electricity and same wad of cooling is is less is not increase.

25:04SPEAKERIt's not increasing in the same way that it that you would that Moore's law increases,

25:08SPEAKERfor example, right? So I tested this on a bunch of stuff over the last few weeks

25:15SPEAKERthat for work I was doing PC World and other places including doing like getting it

25:19SPEAKERto do some basic data analysis stuff.

25:23SPEAKERIt hasn't really saved time with that at all.

25:26SPEAKERIt often produces like I'm I didn't actually keep track.

25:31SPEAKERBut if I had to guess I'd guess it's about 70% successful on creating an Excel query for me

25:36SPEAKERfor something that is of low to moderate complexity formula.

25:44SPEAKERIt did do it did do a pretty good article summary.

25:48SPEAKERLike if I fed it a URL for a long article

25:50SPEAKERand ask it to summarize what the article was about it did a pretty good job with that.

25:53SPEAKERThat's not bad. I asked it.

25:57SPEAKERI asked it what Rocha shown the holiday is celebrating.

26:02SPEAKERIt gave me a pretty good summary of that that I was less good

26:05SPEAKERthan the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on same so.

26:09SPEAKEROkay. I just had an idea. I don't know if we do we have the capacity to do this

26:13SPEAKERand not taking co-pilot right now.

26:15SPEAKERIf you'd like half of the podcast I was going to say what if you took a YouTube?

26:19SPEAKEROkay, you know how like when one of the cliches of the modern internet is everything is video.

26:22SPEAKERNow like like the classic like to paragraph how to has vanished.

26:26SPEAKEROh, yeah, every how to what if you fed this thing a YouTube how-to video

26:31SPEAKERand asked it to just tell you how to do the thing that the video tells you how to do but in text.

26:36SPEAKERNeed a good. Okay. I've got the best homemade pizza you'll ever eat video from tasty.

26:42SPEAKEROkay, why don't you probably punch that in there

26:44SPEAKERand see if it can just derive a simple recipe from that

26:46SPEAKERif tastier food if they're Nazis or something.

26:49SPEAKERI apologize. They have 21.4 million subscribers.

26:53SPEAKERSo I assume they're okay,

26:54SPEAKERbut I don't know for sure this podcast is explicitly anti-nazi pizza just for the record.

26:59SPEAKERWe're anti-nazi everything especially anti-nazi pizza.

27:03SPEAKEROkay, so I'm not so don't deserve pizza.

27:05SPEAKERI'm asking I'm making a new topic with co-pilot.

27:08SPEAKERNow co-pilot has three settings more creative more balanced and more precise.

27:12SPEAKERI think this is a more precise thing.

27:13SPEAKERYeah. Yes. Yeah, you want I want a recipe.

27:16SPEAKERYou just want a list of ingredients and a set of instructions.

27:18SPEAKERYeah, what's the recipe actually?

27:22SPEAKERCan you summarize and you summarize the contents of this video

27:28SPEAKERand give me a recipe for the pizza period.

27:34SPEAKERI'm not I'm not sure how optimistic I am about this way.

27:37SPEAKERThis isn't going to work. I'm gonna go tell you right now.

27:39SPEAKERThat's that's a shame. Okay, so it's searching for the YouTube video.

27:42SPEAKERIt's doing some thinking. This is probably I'm sorry,

27:45SPEAKERbut unable to watch or summarize videos.

27:47SPEAKERHowever can help you make a pizza. Here's a recipe for homemade pizza.

27:50SPEAKERAll right. Well, hold on.

27:51SPEAKERLet's see if the pizza recipe at least looks this looks okay.

27:54SPEAKERYeah. I mean, it's not the pizza you wanted but it's a pizza.

27:58SPEAKERYeah, so and it came from Indian healthy recipes.com,

28:02SPEAKERwhich is like I'm like the machines are biasing toward machine generated.

28:10SPEAKERIs this? Well, this might actually be a real this looks like a real site.

28:14SPEAKERBut anyway, that could be a real recipe.

28:16SPEAKERYeah, I'll I'll mention when I tried it this morning.

28:18SPEAKERI decided to just throw my last Google search in there.

28:21SPEAKEROkay, which was when do Oracle's patents on ZFS expire?

28:27SPEAKEROh, when is then so this actually turned out to be a pretty interesting test case

28:31SPEAKERbecause nobody knows nobody outside of Oracle knows

28:33SPEAKERand actually I suspect hardly anybody in the inside of Oracle understands the issue.

28:37SPEAKERHmm. It this turns out to be a pretty complicated and poorly documented question.

28:42SPEAKERDid it answer the question? Did it say that or did it make some bullshit up?

28:45SPEAKERNo, so it did not. I guess that's what I want to give it credit for.

28:49SPEAKERIt did not answer the question. But then again, I could not find an answer for the question.

28:51SPEAKERAnyway, I don't think that there really is one on the internet.

28:54SPEAKERIt goes to like you need you literally need like patent

28:56SPEAKERand IP lawyers to comb over the open source licenses in extreme detail.

29:01SPEAKERLike people who really know what they're looking at

29:03SPEAKERbecause all the discussion you can find online about this is people kind of just guessing at it

29:09SPEAKERand basically saying like, hey, this needs to be tested in court and stuff like that.

29:13SPEAKERIt's, let's see, Oracle's ZFS is a popular file system.

29:16SPEAKERHowever, the specifics of its patents and their expiration dates can be somewhat complex.

29:21SPEAKERLet me provide some information based on my research.

29:22SPEAKERIt gave me a numbered list. End of life and end of support for Oracle ZFS.

29:27SPEAKERIt linked me to a page to an Oracle forum.

29:30SPEAKERGod help me. Are there really Oracle forums?

29:33SPEAKERforums.oracle.com is. Oh, no, don't go there.

29:36SPEAKERNo, don't go there. That's one of the more cursed addresses I have heard in a while.

29:41SPEAKERNumber two, ZFS license and patents gives me some real basic boilerplate.

29:47SPEAKERIndeed a powerful file system that comes with licensing complexities,

29:50SPEAKERnot fully compatible with the new general public license.

29:53SPEAKERThis one links directly to the Stack Exchange post that I had read in full when I googled this already.

29:59SPEAKERSo it just, well, yes, I mean, okay.

30:02SPEAKERYes. So it links to a thing I had also found and thought was valuable,

30:07SPEAKERbut also I got there faster by just searching it myself and finding that link.

30:12SPEAKERAnyway, it does not have an answer,

30:14SPEAKERbut I did not expect it to have an answer because it's not really out there.

30:17SPEAKERAnd then it gave me a bunch of like, oh, the read more options seem to have vanished since this morning.

30:24SPEAKERBut there were options like, can you explain more about the licenses used in the software?

30:29SPEAKERAnd I hit that and it came up with a pretty good breakdown of the GPL,

30:33SPEAKERI guess. So it's not nothing,

30:36SPEAKERbut also, okay, and at the end of this breakdown of open source licenses,

30:39SPEAKERthere are more options like how does the Apache license compare to the CDDL?

30:44SPEAKEROne of them is just thank you for the explanation.

30:47SPEAKERHmm. Should I thank Copilot for explaining this? No, don't thank the machine.

30:51SPEAKERI want to click thank you for the explanation and see what happens.

30:54SPEAKERSo, okay, I asked Copilot a question.

30:59SPEAKERI said, is Will Smith from PC World doing anything else now?

31:03SPEAKERAnd it said, Will Smith, the Twitch streamer and longtime tech nerd,

31:07SPEAKERpretty good so far, has been up to a few interesting things lately.

31:10SPEAKERLet me share some details. Gaming PC build. Will Smith collaborated with PC World to build a new super powered gaming PC.

31:17SPEAKERThe whole paragraph on this all actually correct?

31:20SPEAKERI think summarized from the PC World article about my PC build from November 2023.

31:26SPEAKERNumber two, Undawn game. Will Smith was featured in Tencent's open world survival RPG called Undawn.

31:31SPEAKERIn this game, he plays a survivor named Trey Jones. Undawn features dynamic weather,

31:35SPEAKERa huge seamless map, base building, factional combat,

31:38SPEAKERand 50 types of vehicles. Will's character serves as a tutorial guide for players in the game.

31:42SPEAKERUnfortunately, Undawn launched in June 2023,

31:46SPEAKERbut didn't gain much traction and is already considered dead in terms of player interest.

31:50SPEAKEROuch. It's great to see Will Smith exploring both gaming and virtual worlds.

31:55SPEAKERIs it? Copilot, do you really think that yourself?

31:59SPEAKERI don't think so. That seems like a very judgmental, subjective statement to make.

32:03SPEAKERSo I asked if he's still streaming on Twitch. He said yes.

32:08SPEAKERThe copilot did also mention that there are no reported incidents affecting Twitch's system performance,

32:14SPEAKERwhich I thought was kind of an odd non sequitur, but it works.

32:17SPEAKERAnd then I followed it up with why did he slap Chris Rock?

32:20SPEAKERAnd then it gives a nice summary of the 94th Academy Awards incident,

32:25SPEAKERbecause it has no context that I'm a different Will Smith than that Will Smith.

32:28SPEAKERYes, I just asked him why did I leave Giant Bomb and got a five paragraph breakdown.

32:34SPEAKERThat's frankly not terrible,

32:37SPEAKERbut all of this just reinforces my assumption that this is this is the same thing Google is doing, right?

32:43SPEAKERIt's just it's just trying to summarize a bunch of web search results in natural language,

32:47SPEAKERand that's kind of it. Yeah,

32:49SPEAKERit's complicated math that determines which words go next to each other in order based on the context of the words that came before.

32:55SPEAKERRight. But but what I mean is the information all it's doing is regurgitating existing information.

32:59SPEAKERThat's it. Yeah. So speaking of legal ramifications,

33:05SPEAKERwhich we mentioned a minute ago,

33:07SPEAKERthere are some IP and legal ramifications from using AI that people are concerned about.

33:11SPEAKERThis is one of the things, this is one of the main reasons if your IT department has said,

33:15SPEAKER"Yo, under no circumstances should you use chat TPT," they're probably worried about one of two things.

33:21SPEAKERAnd those are? Well, one of them is data leakage and the other is copyright ramification.

33:25SPEAKERI was not familiar with the phrase "data leakage" until we did this and ugh.

33:30SPEAKERWell, it's like a less drift for your company. Do I need a data diaper?

33:34SPEAKERNo, no, we don't need diapers. Data leakage is the idea that when you feed data into one of these one of these general purpose AIs,

33:45SPEAKEReither the queries that you that you the prompts that you request or the data that you pull from those prompts are used to train future versions of the model.

33:55SPEAKERSo then the things that you ask about will end up and the answers that are generated will end up in the future versions of the model,

34:01SPEAKERwhich obviously if you're working with like siloed data in your corporation where some departments can know about stuff

34:08SPEAKERand others can't or you have proprietary information that you don't want to go outside of your corporation,

34:12SPEAKERthis is obviously bad for a multitude of reasons.

34:15SPEAKERYeah, I am familiar with that concept,

34:17SPEAKERbut I feel like the term data leakage is not doesn't sound malicious enough like leakage sounds like an accident.

34:24SPEAKERWhereas this I mean that's entirely malicious or that's entirely intentional on the part of whoever's running that service,

34:29SPEAKERright? Like they control whether they subsume that data into their model or not.

34:33SPEAKERYes, exactly. In this case on the data leakage side,

34:38SPEAKERat least Microsoft explicitly says co-pilot isn't trained on data that's in your Microsoft silos

34:44SPEAKERor your prompts for the for the co-pilot service.

34:48SPEAKERAnd that's specifically in response to Microsoft 365 customers,

34:52SPEAKERwhich are, as I understand it, the people who are licensing office and related services from Microsoft.

35:00SPEAKERYeah, I mean, you know, you have to decide for yourself how much you trust their disclaimer here,

35:04SPEAKERbut I mean a publicly traded company this big enough and with this big of corporate contracts,

35:12SPEAKERI have to assume is pretty on the level about this.

35:15SPEAKERYeah, anybody who's been in an admin for even a small Microsoft company that runs Microsoft stuff,

35:21SPEAKERlike they're pretty good about setting up data stores

35:23SPEAKERand data letting you set up data stores and data silos for the different parts of groups within your company.

35:30SPEAKERIf you have your organization perms set up right this this presumably this should carry over to this.

35:35SPEAKERI like to be the benefit of using of being able to ask it whether Will Smith slapped Chris Rock at the Academy Awards is pretty like you're adding surface threat

35:46SPEAKERand surface area to your data loss and data leakage front without getting a whole lot of real obvious benefit.

35:52SPEAKERBut maybe that's just my take. I'm sure people let me know in the in the discord that I'm wrong.

35:58SPEAKERYeah, we've probably said this before but don't feed sensitive or proprietary information into into these sorts of services as a rule.

36:07SPEAKERYou see people all the time out there saying like,

36:09SPEAKERoh, I had this contract from work in to get it to summarize something something

36:13SPEAKERor like I put some of our closed source code in here to get it to look for bugs

36:17SPEAKERor else like that's that's a bad idea. That's probably grounds for termination.

36:21SPEAKERWell, yeah, I mean it depends on the company and it depends on the policy.

36:24SPEAKERBut but like the the co-pilot thing specifically is set up so that you shouldn't that should be okay.

36:31SPEAKERIt's not always going to be across every service.

36:34SPEAKERYeah, the other thing that people are concerned about the lawyers are concerned about is the copyright ramifications for this

36:40SPEAKERand it's this is a place where there have been rulings by the by the organizations that control copyright in multiple different countries Australia,

36:50SPEAKERGermany United States a couple a bunch of others have all said hey,

36:54SPEAKERone of the defining features of copyright is that it has to be created by a human,

36:59SPEAKERright you machines can't generate copyrighted generated works.

37:02SPEAKERWe had a case in the US a few years ago

37:04SPEAKERwhere somebody tried to copyright a painting that a chimpanzee did

37:08SPEAKERand the courts were like no you chimpanzee is not a person you can't copyright a chimpanzee's painting.

37:13SPEAKERI mean if the chimpanzee itself wants to file for copyright the maybe chimpanzee is not a person Brad that's in the eyes of the law.

37:19SPEAKERThat's just how it is. I'm sorry chimpanzees bear not my it's not not my words.

37:24SPEAKERThat's the that's the but this is the kind of stuff that has to be decided in court in a lot of case.

37:28SPEAKERYeah, so there's questions like the idea if you trained say Disney trains a model on the music that John Williams created for Star Wars,

37:38SPEAKERright if that model creates a derivative work that's entirely based on the work that that was created by a human.

37:48SPEAKERDoes John Williams and the work for hire contracts

37:50SPEAKERthat he did that probably assigned copyright to 20th Century Fox

37:52SPEAKERand then Disney does that does John Williams retain copyright on that

37:56SPEAKERor is does Disney retain copyright on that

37:59SPEAKERor does nobody retain copy right on it was generate was a remix generated by a computer.

38:03SPEAKERIt's pretty unclear at this point.

38:06SPEAKERSo that that's that's the other the other side of the copyright question is that okay,

38:14SPEAKERlet's do this in two parts.

38:16SPEAKERThe reason that's important is if you then go out

38:18SPEAKERand build something with that derivative cop not uncopyrightable work,

38:22SPEAKERright say I'm making a video game

38:25SPEAKERand I generate all of my textures with Dolly right or co-pilots Dolly implementation.

38:30SPEAKERAnd then I've built a game that has a whole bunch of art in it that I absolutely can't copyright in a lot of cases.

38:38SPEAKERLike for example, if I'm building game with the with the Doom engine,

38:41SPEAKERit's GPL right if I build textures and typically the the thing that like in Doom

38:49SPEAKERthe engine you can download from anywhere at this point

38:51SPEAKERand the art is the thing that's copyrighted and you're not allowed to steal that right in the maps

38:54SPEAKERand yeah, whatever a lot of services have problems with you distributing things.

38:59SPEAKERYou don't explicitly have copyright or license to use interesting.

39:03SPEAKEROkay, and also you're going to create something that is absolutely indefensible from theft

39:10SPEAKERand piracy if you use a lot of machine generated code in it.

39:14SPEAKERThat was the ramification I was fixating on was like,

39:16SPEAKERhey, you're going to be putting out something that anybody can just rip the assets out of

39:19SPEAKERand redistribute because you don't own them.

39:20SPEAKERYes, that is exactly it.

39:22SPEAKERI should have I should have guessed this.

39:24SPEAKERI just wasn't thinking about it.

39:25SPEAKERIt's not surprising that major platforms are also very skittish about engaging in distribution of this kind of thing.

39:30SPEAKERSo the reason major platforms are skittish about it is because the other side of this is unclear is that if say Lisa Frank

39:39SPEAKERwhose work definitely is in Dolly and the other mid journey and the other generative things

39:47SPEAKERbecause if you type a picture of Zack from Saved by the Bell in the style of Lisa Frank,

39:54SPEAKERyou get 50 things that look exactly like a Lisa Frank picture, right?

39:59SPEAKERIf Lisa Frank looks at the work that you've done and says you used my copyright to generate this work with your machine generated code,

40:08SPEAKERit's unclear whether she has a legal case or not.

40:11SPEAKERAnd in this case a copyright like a cop the ramifications of using somebody else's copyright materials are incredibly high and expensive.

40:20SPEAKERSo if I'm doing work that has a lot of downstream consequences

40:23SPEAKERand it's going to be a real pain in the ass to replace under no circumstances whatsoever.

40:27SPEAKERAm I going to put that work in a in a in a game

40:31SPEAKERor in a project or something that's going to have downstream ramifications?

40:34SPEAKERYes. So yeah, it's like yes,

40:39SPEAKERyou could use your it's way cheaper to generate a bunch of voice text

40:42SPEAKERand a bunch of writing with a machine generated thing.

40:45SPEAKERBut if Harlan Ellison's estate calls and is like yo your your your script for this game infringes our copyright

40:53SPEAKERand he takes you to court you would have been better off paying the writer

40:56SPEAKERfor three years to write the game than to generate your machine code.

41:00SPEAKERAbsolutely. This is this is going to get very interesting as you see you see game developers on online talking

41:05SPEAKERabout without necessarily citing a lot of examples,

41:09SPEAKERbut basically saying like hey, just so you know,

41:11SPEAKERlike a lot of major publishers a lot of major developers are already using this in some capacity.

41:16SPEAKERLike well, I don't I don't know a lot of specific examples like phone stars came out

41:19SPEAKERand I believe it was just like some some in-game posters were AI generated.

41:23SPEAKERIt was or maybe CE covers or something like it wasn't a lot

41:27SPEAKERbut at some point it feels like there's going to be a test case

41:30SPEAKERfor this at some point where something egregious happens and some some consequences come due.

41:36SPEAKERI mean, I will tell you it tested we had to pay a five-figure settlement

41:39SPEAKERfor about 14 seconds of music that was not not in the in the public domain that we thought was yikes.

41:47SPEAKERYeah, and that was for a video that we did not make $15,000 on just to be clear.

41:53SPEAKERI believe that the the the downs like the thing is if you get if you get caught violating copyright,

42:00SPEAKERand since we don't know like here's the thing open a eyes policy.

42:04SPEAKERIs that generating these models on the web?

42:08SPEAKERJust with the reason we're talking about opening is

42:10SPEAKERbecause co-pilot uses GPT and Dolly open a eyes text and image generation modules respectively.

42:18SPEAKERTheir policy is hey, we're just scraping the web.

42:20SPEAKERWe're not violating people's copyright.

42:23SPEAKERThat's that's what they say.

42:24SPEAKERThat's what they think clearly Microsoft thinks the same thing.

42:27SPEAKERIt is totally unclear.

42:29SPEAKERAnd when the bill comes comes do it's not going to be Microsoft

42:32SPEAKERand open AI that are paying it or they'll be wiped out.

42:35SPEAKEREverybody will be alright, then Microsoft will pay a giant fine.

42:40SPEAKERYou're the thing that you make with the derivative works is the thing that will that will be have an issue.

42:44SPEAKERSo if you're reselling something if you're creating something if you're doing work for hire or whatever be careful.

42:48SPEAKERIs that kind of precedent retroactive, you know, like if the landmark ruling comes down in two

42:53SPEAKERor three years that everybody will sue anything that's still for sale,

42:57SPEAKERright like like the you don't have a defense just

42:59SPEAKERbecause you released your your derivative or your you know,

43:03SPEAKERinfringing work two years before the ruling or something.

43:06SPEAKERHonestly, it feels like open a has entire strategies to make this

43:09SPEAKERso vital to the way people work

43:11SPEAKERand do business that it will be too big to fail by the time it gets to courts.

43:16SPEAKERWe shall see on that one before we move on.

43:19SPEAKERYeah, or are you a are you a stealth Saved by the Bell fan?

43:22SPEAKERI like Saved by the Bell. That was that was an oddly specific reference.

43:25SPEAKERSaved by the Bell has Lisa Frank like the like the interstitial shots or Lisa Frank shots.

43:30SPEAKERReally? I don't think they actually are. I think they're just inspired by but they're like,

43:33SPEAKERyeah, I did not you can tell I did not watch a lot of people say Saturday morning.

43:38SPEAKERMy sister like Saved by the Bell

43:39SPEAKERand I was the right age to be sitting at home on Saturday mornings

43:42SPEAKERoften you're waiting for better cartoons to come on.

43:46SPEAKERFunny as an adult my Saturday mornings aren't that much different than my Saturday mornings were as a child.

43:51SPEAKERThat's not such a bad thing. Get up in the morning watch some cartoons.

43:54SPEAKERNothing wrong with that. So okay,

43:57SPEAKERso that this brings us to copilot plus and recall recall.

44:03SPEAKERCopilot plus is this new basically it's the spec it the long and short is it means you have a specialized CPU

44:09SPEAKERand arm Qualcomm Snapdragon 10 elite CPU APU.

44:15SPEAKERWhat is it SOC is what they call them on in the arm world system on a chip.

44:21SPEAKERThe that means that there's a CPU a GPU and an NPU,

44:24SPEAKERwhich is a neural processor that can run the AI locally.

44:28SPEAKERThere's a new version of their of their software that lets you run x86 software on these arm chips as well.

44:36SPEAKERSo you can write all your old problems,

44:37SPEAKERbut I think the the quote I saw said that something like 87% of the most commonly used applications are arm native now,

44:45SPEAKERincluding stuff like resolve and Photoshop and you know all the all the all the big stuff

44:49SPEAKERand that shift is happening fast. The tools have gotten better too.

44:53SPEAKERYeah. Yeah, we should we should say real quick for people who don't know the the Qualcomm Snapdragon line is as far as I know,

45:00SPEAKERdefinitely the biggest mobile CPU on the Android side or is it basically the only one like are there even other arm compatible.

45:07SPEAKERThere's a lot Qualcomm and Samsung makes their own stuff.

45:10SPEAKERThey did. I don't know if they still do Apple makes their own stuff.

45:13SPEAKERYeah, I meant I meant separate from Apple. I meant just in the Android world

45:15SPEAKERbecause that's what I wanted to draw the equivalents to the Apple a chips the arm chips and mobile

45:21SPEAKERand now and now the M chips

45:22SPEAKERbecause that's what the Snapdragon 10 elite is being positioned as a competitor

45:27SPEAKERto or killer of if you believe certain people like it's basically the Windows equivalent of those super fast efficient.

45:34SPEAKERMacbooks with with arm chips in them. Yeah.

45:37SPEAKERSo the Qualcomm is the biggest I believe the biggest of the non vendor specific chip arm chip manufacturers

45:47SPEAKERand for like the kind of cadence on the arm side is that Apple has usually led typically by focusing on something hyper specific

45:56SPEAKERthat they want to accelerate in their OS and then Qualcomm lags behind rolls that feature in a couple years

46:02SPEAKERand then it makes it to Android. Yeah, real quick.

46:05SPEAKEROne other thing before we just just about the this copilot plus kind of spec before we get into the recall stuff.

46:11SPEAKERI would assume that in another year or two,

46:14SPEAKERexcuse me, there will be Intel x86 CPUs that are also in copilot plus pcs

46:18SPEAKERbecause Intel is adding NPUs to their their next line of CPUs

46:22SPEAKERand AMD obviously is doing the same thing like it wouldn't surprise me if that this comes to everywhere.

46:27SPEAKERBut but the point is in order for any of this stuff to work locally copilot

46:31SPEAKERor anything you're you have to have a dedicated processor a new processor.

46:35SPEAKERIt's not going to come to your old hardware,

46:36SPEAKERalthough it turns out you can force it on if you want.

46:39SPEAKERYeah, kind of kind of doesn't remind me of like the Nvidia broadcast stuff that would only run on was an ampere and up.

46:43SPEAKERI think and then the two series and newer.

46:45SPEAKERYeah, people people people hack to broadcast to work on older Nvidia cards.

46:50SPEAKERYou just paid a huge GPU performance penalty or put a ton of load on your card to do it.

46:55SPEAKERYeah, your 1080 would spin up like crazy. So okay, so copilot plus they include the thing that people immediately glommed onto with the copilot plus stuff is recall.

47:08SPEAKERThe promise is pretty straightforward

47:10SPEAKERand it's something that exists on both Mac and PC and standalone third-party apps right now.

47:15SPEAKERMaybe not the AI search aspect of it, but but like the idea that takes snapshots of your PC constantly.

47:21SPEAKERLike what if your computer remembers everything you saw our did with your PC

47:25SPEAKERand then can help you find something you've forgotten using the context of the bits that you do remember like for example.

47:32SPEAKERHey, can I open the spreadsheet? I was working on on Tuesday afternoon

47:34SPEAKERor what was I working on before I found out that Trump was convicted

47:37SPEAKERand stopped working and read New York Times and watched news all afternoon.

47:41SPEAKERYeah, that that that idea has some appeal.

47:44SPEAKERYou know, like I'd like I don't know how many times I forget some website.

47:47SPEAKERI read something on that. I wish I could remember and don't have a link for.

47:50SPEAKERYeah, the idea is that you can use like the context because you can say like I was looking at a website

47:55SPEAKERthat had a light background

47:56SPEAKERand there was a girl a little girl in a yellow raincoat on on the screen.

48:00SPEAKERWhat was the article and it'll theoretically be able to take you there.

48:05SPEAKERI'm absolutely convinced that Microsoft has some enormous set of user data user data signal

48:11SPEAKERin terms of surveys or user expressions of interest

48:14SPEAKERor whatever that they that because of all the things Microsoft is good at.

48:18SPEAKERThey're good at collecting user data that shows that this is something

48:23SPEAKERthat people actually want since they've been working on it.

48:25SPEAKERLike this there was a feature called timeline

48:27SPEAKERand task view in Windows 10 that was basically this without the AI component.

48:31SPEAKERYeah, that's I never I cannot believe I never knew until today that this actually had a name.

48:36SPEAKERThat's that's window key tab as opposed to all tab.

48:41SPEAKERThat's there's also a button on the taskbar forward except I'd turn that off.

48:45SPEAKERWell, yeah, there's a button on the taskbar would show like through time as well.

48:50SPEAKERIf you if you don't turn that off.

48:51SPEAKERYeah, so I do have that turned off

48:53SPEAKERbut I use I use window tab constantly

48:56SPEAKERbecause I use virtual desktops to keep like working personal stuff separate.

48:59SPEAKERFor example madness, absolutely madness to just take that performance hit all day long.

49:04SPEAKERWait, what performance hit?

49:05SPEAKERWell, you have like 34 CPU cores, so you're probably fine.

49:08SPEAKERThat's fine. Okay, so how does it work?

49:12SPEAKERThere's a big article will link it on how recall works.

49:16SPEAKERBut the upshot is it saves regular snapshots of what's on your PC screen at any given moment.

49:20SPEAKERLike images we should be clear not not not some kind of abstract data structure.

49:25SPEAKERI mean straight up images of your screen.

49:27SPEAKERWell, so the snapshot is an image plus a data structure.

49:30SPEAKERWell, yes. Yeah, so there is metadata to go with it for sure.

49:32SPEAKERIn fact, you listed some examples like the API if you set aside,

49:36SPEAKERwhatever privacy concerns around this exists like the API actually sounds pretty interesting.

49:40SPEAKERLike the what is it like Windows State?

49:43SPEAKERWhat file you have open where you are in the file stuff like that is some of the metadata.

49:47SPEAKERIt's it's attaching to the snapshots.

49:49SPEAKERYeah, specifically they they they even listed like they listed some several other examples.

49:54SPEAKERLike if you're in a music player app,

49:57SPEAKERit will know what playlist you are

49:59SPEAKERand what song you are at at the time that that screenshot was live stuff like that.

50:04SPEAKERIt's called user activity is the data that's associated with it.

50:07SPEAKERAnd there's this whole series of APIs for that.

50:09SPEAKERYeah, the point I wanted to make though,

50:11SPEAKERis there is a literal screenshot for every whatever the interval is that it's taking these samples.

50:17SPEAKERYeah, and then the next part is something I'm assuming it's from the language of how they describe this works is a little bit unclear.

50:23SPEAKERMy assumption is that copilot parses what's on the screen and writes that to the user activity as well.

50:29SPEAKERSo it's it's crunching down its assumption of what is what you're seeing on the screen

50:35SPEAKERand it knows which things are windows and which things are not what's inside the contents of windows

50:39SPEAKERand using the API's that they provide you can even say,

50:42SPEAKERokay, these are this is the part of the window you should look at

50:44SPEAKERand this is the part of the window you can ignore stuff like that.

50:49SPEAKERIt's worth reiterating here that this is only in Windows 11 24 H2,

50:54SPEAKERwhich is just now in like insider builds coming out soon

50:58SPEAKERand it only works on a computer if you have a snapdragon 10 elite.

51:02SPEAKERIf you don't with those those machines don't start shipping until mid-june,

51:06SPEAKERlike they're not out because reviewers have them I think at this point,

51:09SPEAKERbut that's about it and you can turn it off.

51:12SPEAKERThis is the other thing that like during the initial install of Windows.

51:16SPEAKERIt says hey, do you want this and you say yes or no,

51:18SPEAKERjust like you say do you want bitlocker encryption or do you want to sign up for live office Microsoft 365?

51:27SPEAKERIt takes space. It takes a fair amount of hard drive space.

51:30SPEAKERYou can configure how much space you use.

51:32SPEAKERIt sounds it is literally a thing I've never considered wanting.

51:38SPEAKERYeah, I guess I would agree with I know, you know,

51:40SPEAKERit's not entirely dissimilar to like your browser history.

51:42SPEAKERI can kind of see a comparison there, but you're right.

51:44SPEAKERI've never I've never stopped and thought like what if the computer could understand

51:47SPEAKERevery bit of my UI experience of this machine and reference it later.

51:52SPEAKERYeah, and it's not it's not something the way

51:56SPEAKERso I use enough different devices for computing throughout the day

52:01SPEAKERthat it's it would only be useful for me if it was an actual privacy nightmare.

52:10SPEAKERAnd it was working on my phone and my laptop

52:12SPEAKERand my tablet and my desktop PC all all together.

52:15SPEAKERYeah, I for me so okay people they left the option to turn this off which is good

52:22SPEAKERbecause they don't really let you turn off co-pilot or don't let you turn it off easily

52:26SPEAKERbecause they knew there were going to be privacy concerns

52:29SPEAKERand I think probably more than privacy concerns.

52:31SPEAKERThe real issue is probably security issues.

52:33SPEAKERYeah, now that we know is this a toggle in straight up Windows settings

52:36SPEAKERthat literally anybody can do with like two clicks.

52:38SPEAKERI mean that's where you can you can you already can turn off your the existing activity history

52:42SPEAKERand timeline stuff in the in the control panel.

52:45SPEAKERI'm just trying to distinguish like is this going to be a group policy edit

52:48SPEAKERthat you have to do or a registry key or is this like a very front-facing toggle?

52:52SPEAKERI would hope the latter so disabling co-pilot is a registry key or group policy edit.

52:59SPEAKERThis is a setting this is a straight-up setting in Windows.

53:02SPEAKERThat's good.

53:02SPEAKERLike I said, it's on by default,

53:04SPEAKERbut you can opt out when you're doing the initial install.

53:07SPEAKERThat's less good on the default is perhaps less good on by default means most people will use it.

53:12SPEAKEROh, yeah people so the feedback the response to this was mostly including for me.

53:19SPEAKERFull disclosure was that this seemed like a privacy nightmare.

53:22SPEAKERSo having spent some time learning more about how it actually works.

53:26SPEAKERI think it's probably not as much of a privacy problem as I as I initially thought

53:29SPEAKERbecause it all runs locally.

53:31SPEAKERIt's running entirely on the local device.

53:33SPEAKERIt's not going to the cloud.

53:34SPEAKERIt's not sending these images to the internet.

53:36SPEAKERThey're just living on the device

53:38SPEAKERand theoretically this is all running on mobile devices

53:42SPEAKERthat should be by default encrypted with BitLocker or device specific encryption.

53:48SPEAKERSo that's like it's if your laptop is stolen when it's closed or sleeping or whatever.

53:54SPEAKERIt should be fine, right?

53:55SPEAKERYou shouldn't lose anything.

53:56SPEAKERIt's not sending data to Microsoft that they can meant then mine

53:59SPEAKERfor more information about how we use our computers

54:01SPEAKERand the things we're interested in

54:02SPEAKERso they can sell us more and more effective ads

54:04SPEAKERand dump even spicier versions of Candy Crush onto our devices without asking us.

54:11SPEAKERThe reason people were upset is because immediately the first thing they said is hey,

54:14SPEAKERyeah, this doesn't redact things like passwords

54:16SPEAKERor financial information or private or sensitive info or things like that.

54:21SPEAKERIt does.

54:23SPEAKERYou can disable it temporarily.

54:25SPEAKERYou can disable it permanently.

54:27SPEAKERYou can disable it on a per application or per website basis.

54:31SPEAKERAssuming you're using a browser that supports their APIs for this which that lot at the time

54:37SPEAKERof the writing this document were Edge Chrome Firefox

54:40SPEAKERand Opera which is probably like 98% of all browsers used.

54:43SPEAKERThe APIs are public so other browsers can implement them

54:48SPEAKERand that will turn off any time you're in a private browser mode.

54:52SPEAKERIt'll turn off.

54:53SPEAKERYou can also say if you use chase you can say I don't ever want to have my chase account scanned

55:00SPEAKERand it'll just block that out.

55:01SPEAKERIt also blocks out DRM video which is I know why they do that.

55:05SPEAKERIt seems stupid because if I'm watching X-Men 97 in the background,

55:11SPEAKERI'll remember I'm watching X-Men 97 and I'll want to know what was I working on while I had X-Men 97 on in the background.

55:17SPEAKERRight like what exactly are they trying to prevent by not storing?

55:21SPEAKERIt's not like you're going to derive anything valuable from the storage of some frames of this video.

55:25SPEAKERLook if you're Microsoft the worst crime you can commit is stealing Disney's IP even inadvertently

55:32SPEAKERand for non-commercial purposes.

55:33SPEAKERFair.

55:35SPEAKERSo, okay.

55:36SPEAKERSo to recap all stored locally theoretically if you if you're just saying yes to the defaults

55:41SPEAKERwhen you set up the machine everything should be nice and encrypted.

55:44SPEAKERIt's only accessible by the main by the current user of the PC.

55:47SPEAKEROther users won't be able to access it because it's encrypted.

55:50SPEAKERMicrosoft can't see it at all whether they're logged into the PC.

55:54SPEAKERIt's not sending anything to the cloud doesn't seem like a privacy problem to me.

55:57SPEAKERNow what it does seem like is a giant huge security problem

56:01SPEAKERbecause if if you get infected with malware,

56:03SPEAKERif you have some of the remote exploitation thing that runs while you're logged into your computer.

56:09SPEAKERThis stuff is all going to be super accessible to anybody

56:13SPEAKERwho has remote code execution on your computer while you're in there while you're while you're logged in.

56:18SPEAKERWhich means like if you if you get infected with malware that would install a ransomware

56:22SPEAKERbefore they trigger the ransomware they'll just scan for Bank of America

56:26SPEAKERand Chase and Wells Fargo and grab all your bank accounts and all that stuff.

56:30SPEAKERYep.

56:32SPEAKERLike if your machine is if you leave your laptop in a cab totally fine.

56:36SPEAKERNo problem, but it seems like the remote exploitation stuff is much more of a problem

56:40SPEAKERthese days given that we're seeing stuff like like the Seattle Public Library got hit with ransomware

56:44SPEAKERthis weekend is completely they're doing everything by paper up there right now

56:48SPEAKERbecause it's the library and I don't think they're gonna be able to afford the ransom.

56:51SPEAKERProbably not I saw I'm some some big ransomware ring just got busted.

56:56SPEAKERThat's good. That sounds great.

56:57SPEAKERYeah, pretty significant problem.

57:00SPEAKERIt also like because of the way this works anybody who has access to your machine,

57:05SPEAKERwhether it's your employer or potentially like law enforcement

57:08SPEAKERif your computer is seized is going to have access to your complete history of everything

57:13SPEAKERyou've done on the computer which depending on how you feel about the government

57:16SPEAKERand your employer you may feel okay with or maybe maybe that's a problem for you.

57:21SPEAKERYeah, like anybody who can by law compel decryption of your sensitive stuff.

57:26SPEAKERYeah, and I don't know I don't know because the BitLocker encryption is tied to your Windows login.

57:32SPEAKERI don't know what the rule is on compelling login to Windows PCs.

57:35SPEAKERI know that there's protections against phones,

57:37SPEAKERbut everything like this is another place where everything's kind of we're not lawyers.

57:42SPEAKERNo local jurisdictions matter

57:45SPEAKERand also I think it's even if you're okay with the way we're running our country here

57:49SPEAKERand the relationship with law enforcement.

57:52SPEAKERIt has real concerns for people who live in total totalitarian regimes and stuff like that.

57:56SPEAKERI think it's a like this is this seems like one of those features

58:00SPEAKERthat you think about the way the worst people in the world

58:03SPEAKERare going to apply it to people and and then go from there.

58:07SPEAKERYeah, did I see my let's see.

58:10SPEAKEROkay. What's the existing standard for compelling people to turn stuff over?

58:13SPEAKERIt's they can force your biometric data, but not your password.

58:16SPEAKERIs that correct? It's all I'm for a long time.

58:20SPEAKERThat was the case is that they could make you touch your finger on the on the phone,

58:24SPEAKERbut they couldn't make you type a password in right like a lot of this

58:29SPEAKERis based on which judge saw stuff last there's no legal.

58:33SPEAKERThere's no law. So it's all based on judicial precedent usually realize that.

58:38SPEAKEROkay, that sucks because I thought that I thought I saw that somebody was trying to change that

58:41SPEAKERthat they were even trying to put passwords in the category that could be forced to fork over.

58:46SPEAKERBut my understanding is that this varies on a state-by-state basis within the United States even.

58:51SPEAKERIt's not but I it's not something I pay attention to so I could be wrong and I apologize.

58:56SPEAKERSo also worth mentioning these are all of these these co-pilot plus pcs are secured core pcs,

59:02SPEAKERwhich means they have a whole suite of post TPP to TPP TPM TPM.

59:09SPEAKERSorry trusted platform module post TPM like they don't they don't run unsigned firmwares.

59:14SPEAKERThey don't run they don't boot anything but Windows unless you turn that off like it's all the

59:19SPEAKERit's all the Microsoft is extremely locked down UEFI slash boot process

59:25SPEAKERso they don't get infected at the boot boot level.

59:27SPEAKERYeah, which sounds horrifying if you're like say a Linux user or something,

59:31SPEAKERbut like probably makes sense at the corporate level.

59:34SPEAKERYou could turn them off to like this is all disableable,

59:36SPEAKERbut you somebody has to go into the into the UEFI and do that.

59:39SPEAKERYeah. So I guess we come to the important question,

59:44SPEAKERwhich is do you need to care about recall? I think probably not at least for right now mainly

59:51SPEAKERbecause it's only going to be on this limited limited run of hardware.

59:54SPEAKERLike we're talking about new thousand dollar arm laptops that are coming out next in June of 2024.

1:00:02SPEAKERIt eventually roll out to the other hardware like like you said,

1:00:04SPEAKERI think AMD and Intel will both provide NPU type processors in future CPUs,

1:00:10SPEAKERbut they haven't announced my guess is that we're going to be talking about this this weekend at copy text,

1:00:14SPEAKERbut I could be wrong or I could see that. Yeah.

1:00:19SPEAKERI mean, I tend to agree with you the fact that it's this easy to disable it kind of helps.

1:00:25SPEAKERI still still wish it would ship off. I still wish I wish it was I wish it was an entirely opt-in feature.

1:00:32SPEAKERYeah, for me for me,

1:00:34SPEAKERI think it's it's one of those things that if they had done a little bit more like work to make it a little safer.

1:00:39SPEAKERI think I'd feel better about it. Right. So for example,

1:00:44SPEAKERif the like the documentation as I read it implied that it's encrypted

1:00:49SPEAKERbecause the encryption is on by default for this class of PC.

1:00:53SPEAKERSo you have to actively turn BitLocker off or the device specific encryption off.

1:00:59SPEAKERNow, that's great. But that means if it doesn't say that recall won't run if you're not on an encrypted drive.

1:01:08SPEAKERAnd if that's the case, then that means you're walking around with an unencrypted hard drive.

1:01:12SPEAKERIt's full of everything you've ever done on that computer for however much space you have.

1:01:17SPEAKERAnd that feels real stupid and bad. That is truly problematic.

1:01:20SPEAKERYeah, when you when you were sitting there making me realize this is tied to just the global BitLocker setting.

1:01:26SPEAKERI mean, I guess we don't know that for a fact,

1:01:27SPEAKERbut if it is just a if it is just a flat toggle that like BitLocker either on or off on this machine period and that's it's you know,

1:01:35SPEAKERit's not like it's not like a hey, just leave encryption on for or maybe it should be mandated.

1:01:40SPEAKERMaybe like this should never be allowed to be mandated.

1:01:42SPEAKERYou know, that's absolutely the case, but we don't know if that's actually how they set it up or not.

1:01:47SPEAKERAnd the docs I looked at both the developer docs and the technical paper is in addition to the consumer facing stuff.

1:01:54SPEAKERIt's not clear at all how this is implemented. That's not great.

1:01:59SPEAKERIt it feels like more well and also it's worth it's worth saying it would be it would be okay

1:02:04SPEAKERif it was encrypted inside the encryption even right.

1:02:09SPEAKERSo like if it has its own key, it's separate and it's not really user accessible except for through the main interfaces.

1:02:15SPEAKERThat's that's a better solution, I think.

1:02:17SPEAKERYeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean this is this is definitely better than the way that social media was portraying this feature,

1:02:22SPEAKERwhich made it just sound like a giant folder full of JPEGs.

1:02:25SPEAKERYeah, I like overall my take on recall is that it doesn't seem like it's as bad as social media made it out to be.

1:02:33SPEAKERThat now I think Microsoft should absolutely have shipped a default block list of applications

1:02:38SPEAKERthat contain information that shouldn't be scanned.

1:02:40SPEAKERSo it should have all the common password managers and all of the bank websites and all of the like,

1:02:45SPEAKERthis is easily this is a very tractable amount of data for a company the size of Microsoft to collect

1:02:50SPEAKERand maintain and should be fairly straightforward.

1:02:55SPEAKERI think turning it off. I don't my feeling I think you added here that you should turn it off by default

1:03:01SPEAKERand make it explicitly opt in. I don't know that I agree with that, actually.

1:03:08SPEAKERBecause when you make things opt in, nobody uses them.

1:03:11SPEAKERYeah, I guess I guess I don't know.

1:03:13SPEAKERI mean, but the on the flip side, the standard for me is if I discovered six months after I got the computer

1:03:19SPEAKERor installed Windows that this had been on and it makes me feel icky,

1:03:23SPEAKERmaybe it shouldn't have been on like anything that you stumble into having been running for some period of time.

1:03:28SPEAKERAnd you think to yourself, I feel gross about knowing this was on.

1:03:32SPEAKERYeah, is not a good feeling as a user.

1:03:35SPEAKERI mean, I think honestly, I think if Microsoft had just let people disable copilot with a toggle

1:03:43SPEAKERinstead of making it a thing that you have to jump through a bunch of hoops

1:03:46SPEAKERand they changed the hoops a couple of times,

1:03:49SPEAKERI think they wouldn't have immediately reacted the same way to this as they did to recall.

1:03:54SPEAKERYeah, I guess I guess you're right. I mean, it recalls the Cortana problem.

1:03:57SPEAKERCortana was the same thing of you could hide the search apparatus pretty easily,

1:04:00SPEAKERbut you were never quite quite clear if Cortana itself was disabled,

1:04:05SPEAKERlike if it was no longer running in the background and copilots the same kind of problem.

1:04:10SPEAKERIf you had hardware that would run this, would you run it, Brad?

1:04:13SPEAKERI hadn't. I already turn off the activity history.

1:04:15SPEAKERI have the timeline disabled in task view already.

1:04:18SPEAKERYou just it just feels weird to me.

1:04:20SPEAKERLike, do you let it track your recent your most frequently used applications or no?

1:04:26SPEAKERI'm not sure if that's under that same umbrella or not.

1:04:29SPEAKERLike if you turn that off.

1:04:32SPEAKERSo I have my recommend that my recommended box in my start menu has nothing in it

1:04:36SPEAKERbecause I have that tracking turned off.

1:04:39SPEAKEROh, I do still have that recommend. I do.

1:04:42SPEAKERBut it seems like it'll ever all it ever recommends is oh, I think I know what it is.

1:04:47SPEAKERI think I did turn off recommended apps and it only recommends recently added now.

1:04:51SPEAKERThat's that's maybe the other way to handle it.

1:04:53SPEAKERYeah, is I think where I'm at because it only ever recommends recently added.

1:04:57SPEAKERSo I imagine if should I buy when I buy a machine that runs this,

1:05:02SPEAKERthat's the first thing I turn off probably.

1:05:03SPEAKERYeah, probably. I don't know.

1:05:06SPEAKERI don't like I said, I don't really have a specific reason that I

1:05:10SPEAKERthat I need for it to be off so much as it just doesn't feel great.

1:05:13SPEAKERI just seems like it's going to take a lot of hard drive space or SSD space and RAM.

1:05:19SPEAKERYeah. That I'd rather use for other things. So I guess that's it.

1:05:23SPEAKERThat's kind of where it is. Like I think it's I think the TLDR is I think the controversy was pretty overblown.

1:05:29SPEAKERYeah, I can see that. I mean, there are some concerns as you outlined with remote access of PCs and stuff like that.

1:05:36SPEAKERBut but it was yeah, it was mostly positioned as a security problem as a privacy problem.

1:05:41SPEAKERAnd I really think it's much more of a security thing which I guess like the common in the in the modern.

1:05:48SPEAKERHey, tech companies are all evil. Privacy is a real concern and security is something that normal people don't worry about.

1:05:54SPEAKERSo yeah, there we go.

1:05:56SPEAKERYeah, I guess we could really quickly run down some of the other high points of the Copilot Plus certification.

1:06:01SPEAKERThey seem to be they seem to be putting generative AI into MS Paint.

1:06:05SPEAKERYeah, if you're right now, if you have MS Paint installed on your computer,

1:06:09SPEAKERyou can hit a button and it will let you know if you're in a beta to try out the generative AI in Paint,

1:06:15SPEAKERwhich of all the things in all the world that I thought I would need.

1:06:21SPEAKERThe ability to have a conversation with what a picture looks like in Paint is not one of them.

1:06:25SPEAKERMy personal vow, if I ever use that feature,

1:06:27SPEAKERI'm going to explicitly instruct it to only make the image look like it could have been created in the original 16-bit MS Paint.

1:06:34SPEAKERYeah, 90s Paint style.

1:06:35SPEAKERYes.

1:06:37SPEAKERClipChamp is their new short video editor tool and it does timing and stuff like that for cuts is my understanding.

1:06:46SPEAKERWhat does the snipping tool do?

1:06:48SPEAKERDo you not know the snipping tool?

1:06:49SPEAKERNo, no, no, with the AI.

1:06:51SPEAKERNo, I use the snipping tool all the time.

1:06:52SPEAKERIt pulls text out.

1:06:53SPEAKEROh, so that's already built into power toys,

1:06:55SPEAKERbut I guess that's the whole history of power toys is they uplift the best features into regular Windows.

1:07:00SPEAKERYeah, exactly.

1:07:01SPEAKERThey're sure locking themselves over in Windowsland.

1:07:03SPEAKERIt's I think it's like Windows Shift T is the power toy that lets you do image to text.

1:07:09SPEAKERYeah, I'll say that the snipping tool version seems like it's better closer to the phone versions.

1:07:16SPEAKERThe live captioning and translation seems legitimately useful.

1:07:20SPEAKERYeah, like this is one of the oh, sorry.

1:07:23SPEAKERIt'll take any audio in any way.

1:07:25SPEAKERWell, presumably any language.

1:07:26SPEAKERI'm sure that maybe some more obscure ones don't work as well.

1:07:29SPEAKERBut it's like six languages to start.

1:07:30SPEAKEROh, is it really?

1:07:31SPEAKEROkay, well still but it will it will live caption any audio

1:07:35SPEAKERor video in those languages and translate it to English.

1:07:39SPEAKERYeah, and like live captioning and live translation is one of those places where it seems like there's like it's a finite data set.

1:07:47SPEAKERYes, it's they're really straightforward.

1:07:49SPEAKERLike I know it's not I think it's definitely not the best possible solution,

1:07:54SPEAKERbut I know a lot of people especially smaller games are doing machine generated translations of their games

1:08:01SPEAKERrather than just not having translations of the games which like it's this is a better something than nothing category probably.

1:08:08SPEAKERYeah, this is kind of just a general accessibility tool.

1:08:12SPEAKERYeah, and like just live captioning on YouTube man.

1:08:15SPEAKERAbsolutely makes YouTube usable in a lot of ways.

1:08:19SPEAKERAnd then there's also some other stuff in third-party apps.

1:08:23SPEAKERYeah, seems like all the Adobe suite has stuff DaVinci resolve stuff like that

1:08:28SPEAKERand theoretically this should be accelerated by the new NPUs on these on these co-pilot plus computers.

1:08:34SPEAKERYeah, because it's not like Adobe was not doing AI stuff prior to this.

1:08:37SPEAKERYeah, so overall like I think I'm still gonna I have the co-pilot button on

1:08:46SPEAKERbecause I'm working on some stuff on a video for PC world right now.

1:08:49SPEAKERI think as soon as I'm done with that it's going to go away again

1:08:51SPEAKERbecause I don't turns out I don't really need it.

1:08:53SPEAKERYeah, I get you the stuff's gonna be everywhere though soon.

1:08:57SPEAKERI mean it kind of already is but it's really getting to be everywhere.

1:09:01SPEAKERAs a random example, I pulled an update for iTerm2 on my MacBook the other day,

1:09:06SPEAKERwhich is the terminal emulator that I use which is open source.

1:09:08SPEAKERYeah, like it's it's it's what you would consider a like a terminal emulator for the people

1:09:14SPEAKERand the new update one of the new features was AI driven command suggestion.

1:09:18SPEAKERLike so it like type aheads your command line.

1:09:20SPEAKERYou can know you can go in a little box on the side and basically ask it like like,

1:09:24SPEAKERhey, how do I restart this service the system D service

1:09:28SPEAKERand Linux and it'll it'll suggest a command for how to do that.

1:09:31SPEAKERDoes it work? I didn't try it.

1:09:32SPEAKERI don't so I did not try it but I actually just saw like kind of as we were recording this.

1:09:37SPEAKERIt looks like that shipped with the recent update.

1:09:40SPEAKERI don't see that there was a backlash

1:09:41SPEAKERbut there must have been a backlash because they very quickly backpedaled

1:09:45SPEAKERand removed it and relisted it as an optional plug-in.

1:09:49SPEAKEROh, that makes sense. So I'm guessing guessing it did not go over well

1:09:52SPEAKERor there was some other technical reason but they but they pulled it out of the thing.

1:09:55SPEAKERBut but again, that's like I term too and say it's a free open source thing.

1:09:59SPEAKERIt's not like some big business initiative for Microsoft,

1:10:02SPEAKERright and even even stuff like that is starting to integrate AI suggestion stuff at this point.

1:10:08SPEAKERI mean for me, there's a couple of big questions.

1:10:10SPEAKEROne is like what's the cost both in terms of money

1:10:14SPEAKERand like right now, you know, your your GPT queries and your co-pilot queries are funded by Microsoft

1:10:21SPEAKERand entries and Horowitz and you know giant multinational corporations

1:10:26SPEAKERand startups with billions of dollars in the bank.

1:10:29SPEAKERAnd I don't exactly understand where that money is coming from when that when that when you know,

1:10:37SPEAKERwhen the Piper comes to pay or I can't remember what the phrase is,

1:10:40SPEAKERbut when it's time to pay the piper, you know, it's time to pay the piper.

1:10:43SPEAKERThat's it. Thank you. And and I don't know what like I don't have a good sense of what it costs.

1:10:47SPEAKERI also don't know what the environmental cost of all this stuff is

1:10:49SPEAKERbecause there's a an enormous training cost to train these big models.

1:10:54SPEAKERThere's also a fairly substantial cost to running queries and on the cloud,

1:10:58SPEAKERespecially for image related stuff whether parsing is is I don't know

1:11:02SPEAKERwhether parsing is less expensive or more expensive than generative queries,

1:11:06SPEAKERbut I know that when I run a generative query on a 4090 here,

1:11:09SPEAKERit takes 20 seconds on with the with the GPU running full bore.

1:11:14SPEAKERSo, you know, it's not inexpensive in terms of energy use.

1:11:19SPEAKERAnd if we're doing if we if we're doing billions of these queries a day as a as a society,

1:11:25SPEAKERyou know, there's a cost to that

1:11:26SPEAKERand I don't know the benefit we're getting like I don't know that teaching machines to lie is worth the benefit of the of the of the increased productivity we're getting from it.

1:11:38SPEAKERSo anyway, there's hope that there's a better place to leave it than that.

1:11:41SPEAKERYeah, we'd love to know what you think about this.

1:11:44SPEAKERIt's this is a little bit of a different format than we usually do.

1:11:47SPEAKERIt's a little more topical, but it's like there was a lot of I was I was really surprised.

1:11:51SPEAKERI was kind of shook when I looked at the at the recall stuff to see how it actually worked

1:11:56SPEAKERand was like, I don't this doesn't seem as bad as like it's bad,

1:11:59SPEAKERbut it's not as bad as the internet was acting.

1:12:01SPEAKERSo yeah. Anyway, as always Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod is a listener supported show.

1:12:07SPEAKERWe wouldn't be here without you the listener and confirm.

1:12:11SPEAKERSo yeah, if you like the show, you can support us by paying five bucks or less.

1:12:16SPEAKERIf you do an annual, I think over at tech pod.

1:12:20SPEAKERSorry, patreon.com slash tech pod.

1:12:22SPEAKERAgain, that's patreon.com slash tech pod and for five bucks a month.

1:12:26SPEAKERYou get access to the discord just full of delightful human beings who talk about stuff like this all day long.

1:12:33SPEAKERThese are the topics like this this idea.

1:12:36SPEAKERI think this show idea came from a suggestion in the quite in the topics idea that basically was somebody who said.

1:12:47SPEAKERHey visualizer said I wouldn't mind an episode about all the new Windows stuff.

1:12:52SPEAKERIt's a lot to digest. I was just starting to feel good about upgrading to Windows 11.

1:12:55SPEAKERSo I it turned out it was a great idea and there's a lot to dig into and we started digging into it.

1:13:02SPEAKERYeah, and we're always on the hunt for new episode topics and especially stuff people want to hear about.

1:13:07SPEAKERSo yeah, please use that channel. We look at it pretty much every week.

1:13:12SPEAKERBut if you so if you would like to support the show is get its patreon.com slash check but it's five bucks.

1:13:18SPEAKERWe also will take more money if you'd like to give us more money.

1:13:20SPEAKERWe're happy to do that including and we offer a very special.

1:13:24SPEAKERThank you to our all of our patrons,

1:13:26SPEAKERbut especially our executive producer tier patrons including Andrew Slawski Jordan Lippett paddle Creek games makers of fractured veil.

1:13:34SPEAKERBuddy fiend Joel Krauska twinkle Twinkie David Allen James kamek and pantheon makers of the HS 3 high-speed 3d printer.

1:13:42SPEAKERThanks everybody. Thank you. And that I guess we'll do it for this week.

1:13:46SPEAKERWe'll be back next week with another episode of Brad will made a tech pod until then I guess,

1:13:53SPEAKERyou know, don't do do what we would do and don't do what we wouldn't do.

1:13:57SPEAKERMaybe it's true words. See y'all next week.