221: Cluck to Home Screen

00:00SPEAKER- So after we recorded the podcast last week,

00:03SPEAKERI was sitting in the living room

00:05SPEAKERand I opened up an app on my phone

00:10SPEAKERthat had an advertisement in it for a fast food place.

00:14SPEAKERAnd of course, I was doing the beeps,

00:16SPEAKERmy phone was at maximum volume and the phone was like,

00:20SPEAKERyo, you want some chicken nuggets, man?

00:22SPEAKERWe got chicken nuggets, full volume.

00:24SPEAKERAnd everybody looked at me like, what's going on here, man?

00:27SPEAKERYour phone is yelling at you.

00:29SPEAKER- This was an app advertisement, to be clear,

00:31SPEAKERnot like a YouTube advertisement.

00:32SPEAKER- This was an, I think it was probably in Reddit,

00:35SPEAKERif I had to guess, so.

00:36SPEAKER- That seems illegal.

00:38SPEAKER- I don't think you should be able to play sounds

00:40SPEAKERon people's devices, unsolicited.

00:42SPEAKER- Well, you know, I think there's a lot of things

00:44SPEAKERyou shouldn't be able to do with people's devices

00:45SPEAKERand yet somehow they continue.

00:47SPEAKER- You know what I do think you should be able to do, Brad?

00:51SPEAKER- What's that?

00:51SPEAKER- Is eat some absolute garbage food on the Superb Owl Sunday.

00:55SPEAKER- Yeah, you know, I don't care much about football,

00:58SPEAKERbut it does seem like a good excuse for indulgence,

01:01SPEAKERdecadence, if you will.

01:03SPEAKER- Yeah, get a, like, where do you like to go?

01:06SPEAKERWhat's your starting point?

01:07SPEAKERWhere do you kick off with like, you like a protein,

01:10SPEAKERyou like a lot of carbs, what's your strategy?

01:13SPEAKER- Man, I mean, it varies by event.

01:16SPEAKER- Okay.

01:17SPEAKER- You know, like if it's Christmas,

01:17SPEAKERI mean, obviously this is not Christmas.

01:19SPEAKER- No.

01:20SPEAKER- But like the holidays, it's like sausage balls

01:22SPEAKERand things of that nature.

01:24SPEAKER- I like a sausage ball, I'll eat a sausage ball.

01:27SPEAKER- For a football game, I don't know.

01:29SPEAKERIt's a different category of stuff, you know?

01:31SPEAKERFootball game, it's like chips and dip, it's like bad.

01:33SPEAKERIt's worse stuff, I don't know, buffalo wings.

01:36SPEAKER- Well, okay, so I guess the question is,

01:37SPEAKERif you're doing a spread for a football game,

01:38SPEAKERdo you put plates, like, is it a drive-by,

01:41SPEAKERyou just grab something and jam it in your face,

01:43SPEAKERor are you like putting a little plate next to there

01:45SPEAKERso you can make like a little spread

01:46SPEAKERand then take it back to your seat to watch the game?

01:48SPEAKER- Yeah, I think it's proper to always have a little plate,

01:51SPEAKEReven if you don't need it.

01:52SPEAKER- Oh, you and I are different people, turns out.

01:54SPEAKER- I would say plates optional is what I'm gonna say.

01:56SPEAKERIt's like, okay, if you just wanna drive by,

01:57SPEAKERdip a chip and go, go for it.

01:59SPEAKERIf you want a plate to catch the crumbs or whatever,

02:02SPEAKERI won't argue.

02:03SPEAKER- Okay, like in a crumb,

02:04SPEAKERif you're eating something that has crumbs or like,

02:06SPEAKERI guess if you're doing a dip,

02:08SPEAKERdo you have like a seven layer dip there?

02:10SPEAKERYou wanna get a big spoonful of that

02:12SPEAKERand slop it down on your plate.

02:13SPEAKER- Oh, seven layer dip is...

02:15SPEAKER- What are your seven layers?

02:16SPEAKERIt's like guac and refried beans, sour cream,

02:19SPEAKERprobably some sort of cheese mix.

02:21SPEAKER- Lettuce and tomato, does that count as one or two layers?

02:24SPEAKER- I think that's each a layer, that's six.

02:26SPEAKERAnd then maybe olives.

02:27SPEAKER- Yes, olives.

02:28SPEAKER- We'd say sour cream, yeah.

02:29SPEAKER- Man, maybe I should...

02:30SPEAKERSo yeah, I'm sitting here trying to think what,

02:32SPEAKERI'm gonna be solo, unless I swing by your house,

02:35SPEAKERI'm not sure yet.

02:36SPEAKER- I'm saying make a seven layer dip

02:37SPEAKERand then that's like two, three meals right there.

02:40SPEAKER- That's true.

02:41SPEAKERI don't know, did you guys ever do the Rotel tomato dip?

02:44SPEAKER- Are you kidding me?

02:46SPEAKERYes, you mean you take a half a slab of Velveeta

02:49SPEAKERand a can of Rotel and put it in the microwave oven

02:51SPEAKERfor four minutes?

02:52SPEAKER- It's the easiest thing you can possibly make

02:53SPEAKERfor a party situation.

02:55SPEAKER- There's an amount of that that you should stop at.

02:57SPEAKERLike that's one of those things you,

02:58SPEAKERlike once you, it becomes clear that it is not real food,

03:03SPEAKERabout midway through a bowl of that.

03:04SPEAKER- So that's my quandary.

03:05SPEAKERIf I'm gonna be by myself and I make an entire serving,

03:09SPEAKERlike an entire dish of that, something bad might happen.

03:13SPEAKER- Look, that is, no one man should conserve

03:15SPEAKERone entire serving.

03:17SPEAKERAnd then also you're gonna have a half a slab of Velveeta

03:19SPEAKERleft over too, which is, it's no longer a shelf stable

03:22SPEAKERonce you open the foil.

03:24SPEAKER- Wait, is that actually true?

03:25SPEAKER- The Velveeta is not in the chilled section

03:28SPEAKERof the grocery store, Brad.

03:29SPEAKERIt's ultra pasteurized.

03:30SPEAKER(laughing)

03:31SPEAKER- This is how you know I've never had to buy Velveeta before.

03:34SPEAKER- So I was thinking like a five, seven layer

03:36SPEAKERis pretty good though.

03:37SPEAKER'Cause that's got, you got some like protein

03:39SPEAKERand the refined beans, maybe put some black beans on top

03:41SPEAKERif you wanna go for an unprecedented eighth layer.

03:45SPEAKERYou got dairy, you got a vegetable somewhere in there

03:49SPEAKERwith guac and lettuce.

03:50SPEAKERMan, you know what, you might be onto something.

03:53SPEAKERI was thinking just buy a giant bag of tortilla chips,

03:56SPEAKERmake the Rotel Velveeta thing,

03:58SPEAKERmaybe make some fresh guacamole to go between back and forth

04:02SPEAKERyou know, not all Velveeta, cut it with some healthy fats.

04:05SPEAKERBut the seven layer might trump all of that actually.

04:08SPEAKER- So I've got some wild cards for you.

04:09SPEAKEROne is that you can do wings in the oven real easy

04:12SPEAKERif you dry them off all the way and then do a salt

04:16SPEAKERand a little bit of baking powder on the outside,

04:17SPEAKERa little crisp up, crisp up real good in like an oven.

04:22SPEAKERYou want them to be super dry.

04:23SPEAKERThere's a serious recipe for those that's good,

04:25SPEAKERbut cut the salt on that is my advice.

04:28SPEAKERThe other one is a Lucky Peach recipe from way back

04:32SPEAKERwhere they're like, just go buy a couple of bags

04:37SPEAKERof the cheapest shrimp ramen that they have

04:39SPEAKERat your grocery store and then throw out the noodles

04:43SPEAKERand take the packets and put them in a quart of sour cream

04:47SPEAKERand stir it up and let it sit overnight.

04:49SPEAKERAnd it turns into like a French onion dip,

04:51SPEAKERbut it's like rough shrimp ramen dip.

04:53SPEAKERAnd that and some ruffles is unbelievable.

04:57SPEAKER- That is the most collegiate food recipe strategy

05:01SPEAKERI have ever heard.

05:02SPEAKER- So I was skeptical of this.

05:04SPEAKERI made a batch when we went camping

05:07SPEAKERwith the kiddos school friends last summer.

05:10SPEAKERAnd everybody was like, what is this?

05:13SPEAKERI was like, it's shrimp dip, just try it.

05:14SPEAKERIt's pretty remarkable.

05:16SPEAKERAnd everybody's like, I don't know shrimp dip.

05:18SPEAKERAnd then like 45 minutes later,

05:20SPEAKERthe entire quart of sour cream was gone.

05:22SPEAKERIt was like vultures had descended on that stuff.

05:25SPEAKER- That sounds dangerous.

05:26SPEAKERSpeaking of things that are not entirely food.

05:29SPEAKER(upbeat music)

05:46SPEAKER(upbeat music continues)

05:57SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.

06:00SPEAKERI'm Will.

06:01SPEAKER- I'm Brad, hello.

06:01SPEAKER- Doing this before we eat lunch is dangerous.

06:03SPEAKER- Yes.

06:04SPEAKER- I'm hungry.

06:05SPEAKER- Is it?

06:06SPEAKER- I just ate a hot dog and I'm hungry again

06:07SPEAKERbecause of all the dip talk.

06:09SPEAKER- This is how you solve this problem.

06:10SPEAKERYou just stop eating.

06:11SPEAKERI mean, okay, I'm being a little flip.

06:13SPEAKERDon't stop eating.

06:14SPEAKERBut that frankly is half the reason I started fasting was,

06:19SPEAKERman, I don't have time to eat

06:20SPEAKERuntil like two or three o'clock every day anyway.

06:23SPEAKERI might as well just make this a formal declaration.

06:26SPEAKER- I'm much more into slowing, it turns out.

06:28SPEAKERBut yeah, it's time for the Super Bowl.

06:32SPEAKERI didn't even look at TV sales this year.

06:34SPEAKERUsually I look at TV sales around Super Bowl

06:36SPEAKER'cause that's a good time for that.

06:37SPEAKER- Yeah, sure.

06:38SPEAKER- A friend of the show recently bought

06:41SPEAKERa ridiculously oversized TV.

06:43SPEAKER- Oh, how oversized are we talking?

06:46SPEAKER- 100 inches.

06:47SPEAKER- Wow.

06:48SPEAKER- And when he told us what it cost,

06:51SPEAKERit was less than I paid for my Panasonic like 10 years ago.

06:55SPEAKER- No kidding.

06:56SPEAKER- Yeah, I was shocked.

06:56SPEAKER- TVs have gotten pretty cheap, I have to say.

06:59SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't have a wall large enough

07:01SPEAKERfor a hundred inch TV though, I don't think.

07:03SPEAKER- Trying to think your living room,

07:06SPEAKERhow big is yours now, 65?

07:07SPEAKER- 65.

07:08SPEAKER- I've decided 65 is kind of a sweet spot.

07:11SPEAKER- 65 is pretty good.

07:13SPEAKER- Norm has a 77, I think, which is substantial enough,

07:18SPEAKERbut he also has high ceilings, so it makes a difference.

07:22SPEAKERIf you have eight foot ceilings, 65 seems like pretty much,

07:24SPEAKERI don't think I'd want to go much, much bigger.

07:26SPEAKER- Yeah, I gotta tell you, I have become violently HDR

07:29SPEAKERpilled.

07:30SPEAKER- Oh really?

07:31SPEAKER- Like I know we've talked about it before,

07:32SPEAKERyou don't know what you're missing.

07:33SPEAKERI thought I knew what I was missing, I did not.

07:35SPEAKER- Have you turned it on on like the PC now?

07:38SPEAKERAre you playing video games on the PC with the HDR on?

07:40SPEAKER- No, not as yet.

07:42SPEAKER- Okay.

07:43SPEAKER- I am trying to finish that Final Fantasy VII remake.

07:45SPEAKERBoy, is there some bright ass stuff in that game.

07:48SPEAKER- Oh, I didn't play that with HDR on, 'cause I streamed it.

07:50SPEAKER- It looks really good.

07:51SPEAKER- Huh, how far in are you?

07:53SPEAKER- Chapter eight or nine currently.

07:55SPEAKERI've still got a ways to go.

07:56SPEAKER- Are you doing all the side stuff with the VR missions

07:59SPEAKERand all that stuff?

08:00SPEAKERI don't think they're called VR missions, but.

08:02SPEAKER- This is a nearly three year old play through

08:04SPEAKERand I have been doing all the side stuff

08:06SPEAKERwhen I dropped it two and a half years ago.

08:08SPEAKER- Oh, so you just picked it back up,

08:09SPEAKERyou didn't start at the beginning.

08:10SPEAKER- Yes, no, no, no, I picked up my very old save

08:12SPEAKERand just got back into it.

08:13SPEAKERSo I might skip side stuff in the interest

08:16SPEAKERof just getting through it.

08:17SPEAKER- Couple of those final VR things are pretty hard.

08:22SPEAKER- Yeah.

08:22SPEAKER- It's a good game, I really enjoyed it.

08:24SPEAKERHaving never played those before, I was enthralled.

08:28SPEAKERBut we're not here to talk about Final Fantasy today, Brad.

08:32SPEAKERWe are here to talk about the ultimate VR mission.

08:35SPEAKER- Yes, we're here to talk about the Final Fantasy.

08:38SPEAKER- Yeah, it's the spatial computing revolution.

08:40SPEAKERIt's here, it's now.

08:42SPEAKERAnd with us to talk about it is tested.com

08:45SPEAKERand youtube.com/testedcom's Norman Chan,

08:49SPEAKERVR aficionado, AR expert, and just all around swell guy.

08:53SPEAKERWelcome to the show, Norm.

08:55SPEAKER(upbeat music)

08:57SPEAKEROkay, Norm, you're the first vision pro person, bro.

09:03SPEAKERI know. - Vision bro.

09:04SPEAKER- Vision bro. - Oh, nice.

09:05SPEAKER- Is that, how do you feel about that?

09:07SPEAKERIs you feel like that this is an epithet

09:09SPEAKERor you feel like it's a badge of honor at this point?

09:13SPEAKER- I don't know, I don't know how I felt about that.

09:14SPEAKERI mean, I feel like how I felt

09:17SPEAKERwhen I first bought the iPhone.

09:19SPEAKERThat's how this all feels right now.

09:20SPEAKER- Okay, okay. - The energy,

09:22SPEAKERthe energy within me, the energy in the community.

09:26SPEAKERThere wasn't any Reddit back then, really.

09:28SPEAKERI guess there was a little bit of Reddit.

09:28SPEAKER- It was Dig, Reddit was Dig back then, still.

09:30SPEAKER- But Dig didn't really have a community.

09:31SPEAKERBut like, you know, the internet feels like

09:34SPEAKERthe energy of 2007, except we're all a little bit older.

09:37SPEAKER- A little bit. - Did you buy

09:39SPEAKERa launch iPhone?

09:41SPEAKER- I did buy a launch iPhone. - Or did you buy

09:42SPEAKERjust after? - And I did exactly

09:43SPEAKERthe same thing, where I didn't pre-order.

09:45SPEAKERWe were working together well.

09:47SPEAKERSo we were at Maximum PC, I was really on Windows,

09:50SPEAKERnot Windows Mobile, it was CE back then.

09:54SPEAKER- It was Windows Mobile by then.

09:55SPEAKERIt would have been-- - It was Post Pocket PC.

09:58SPEAKERBut anyway, HTC had their phone with the keypad.

10:03SPEAKER- Yeah, the slide-out. - The keyboard.

10:04SPEAKERAnd there you do web browsing on that one.

10:06SPEAKERI was like, oh, that's the one I want.

10:07SPEAKERAnd then iPhone came out, and literally,

10:10SPEAKERI think the second day, I went to an AT&T store

10:13SPEAKERand got a family hookup to spend the $500 to buy the phone.

10:17SPEAKERAnd I don't think I even had my own real phone account.

10:21SPEAKERI had to switch AT&T accounts, even pay for data,

10:23SPEAKERand get on edge network.

10:25SPEAKERBut it all feels like that, and that is very exciting.

10:29SPEAKERThere's a lot of new discovery, a lot of discussion.

10:32SPEAKERBut you could, the entirety of this new interface,

10:37SPEAKERthis new form of computing, this new form of entertainment,

10:41SPEAKERI felt like I could encompass it all in my brain.

10:43SPEAKERI could survey the entire landscape,

10:46SPEAKERand I could follow along before the world,

10:50SPEAKERbefore the hockey stick moment,

10:52SPEAKERbefore everyone, before a billion apps,

10:54SPEAKERbefore a billion websites,

10:57SPEAKERlike what everyone is discovering now with the headset,

11:01SPEAKERwith every day, what the community's learning about it,

11:03SPEAKERwith every new app that's coming out,

11:05SPEAKERI feel like I could actually fit that all into my brain,

11:09SPEAKERwhich is cool.

11:10SPEAKER- Let me ask real fast,

11:12SPEAKERnot to put the cart before the horse here,

11:15SPEAKERare you suggesting this thing

11:16SPEAKERis going to be as transformational as the iPhone was,

11:18SPEAKERor are you just saying, hey, it might be?

11:21SPEAKER- I'm just saying it's different enough,

11:23SPEAKERand it's exciting enough that there,

11:25SPEAKERand the people who've bought into it

11:28SPEAKERare engaged with it enough,

11:30SPEAKERand there are new enough things to discover with it

11:32SPEAKERthat in this moment, literally one week after it's released,

11:38SPEAKERthe people who have it are still very much

11:40SPEAKERin that honeymoon phase with it.

11:43SPEAKER- Like, are you still, have you, okay,

11:45SPEAKERso I'm keeping the cart way ahead of the horse here,

11:48SPEAKERbut actually, let's go back,

11:49SPEAKER'cause the iPhone's an interesting place.

11:51SPEAKERRemember, the iPhone launched with no apps, right?

11:54SPEAKERThe only apps, like your apps were save this webpage

11:57SPEAKERas an icon on your home screen,

11:59SPEAKERand that was how you accessed,

12:00SPEAKERthat was their whole pitch.

12:03SPEAKERYou're not gonna need apps,

12:03SPEAKERyou have the full web on this thing,

12:04SPEAKERand then, of course, they destroyed the web

12:06SPEAKERover the next 20, 15 years.

12:08SPEAKERSo, I guess, two questions.

12:12SPEAKERWhich thing that we love and is good for humanity

12:14SPEAKERis this going to destroy,

12:16SPEAKERand do you feel like there's a hole?

12:19SPEAKERDo you feel like there's some hole in it that is,

12:22SPEAKERlike, are they gonna ship a version next year

12:24SPEAKERwith controllers, 'cause they're like, yo, we can't,

12:25SPEAKERturns out you need controllers for a 3D headset

12:27SPEAKERif you wanna be able to do a lot of the stuff

12:28SPEAKERthat people wanna do.

12:30SPEAKER- Yeah, the biggest hole in it right now,

12:33SPEAKERand they've built in some of the backend to support this,

12:39SPEAKERis for more communal things to do.

12:41SPEAKERSharePlay is a protocol that they have

12:43SPEAKERwhere people can, if the apps support it,

12:46SPEAKERthey can collaborate, they can have their personas,

12:50SPEAKERtheir avatars, whether it's in the FaceTime windows

12:54SPEAKERor some, you know, without the frame border,

12:57SPEAKERbut floating in your virtual space

13:00SPEAKERso that you can collectively sync, you know,

13:03SPEAKERwatching a movie, which you can do today,

13:05SPEAKERbut sync-- - You can do that on the iPad

13:07SPEAKERand the Apple TV or whatever, right?

13:09SPEAKER- Yes. - Yeah.

13:09SPEAKER- But you can't do that in a spatial way, right?

13:13SPEAKERWhen you do an iPad, you're gonna find boxes

13:15SPEAKERin the frame of your iPad,

13:17SPEAKERboxes in the frame of your phone.

13:18SPEAKERHere, it's personas in rectangles and squares

13:23SPEAKERin, theoretically, the endless space of your home

13:26SPEAKERor whatever environment you might be in.

13:28SPEAKER- Oh, okay, so like if you watch a movie

13:30SPEAKERand you SharePlay with two other people who have headsets,

13:34SPEAKERare like your little head sitting,

13:35SPEAKERare everybody's head sitting in chairs in like a theater

13:38SPEAKERand their boxes are just floating there?

13:39SPEAKERIt's like, no?

13:41SPEAKER- No, right now, they're floating where you put them.

13:43SPEAKER- Okay. - So the sound

13:44SPEAKERof where that person is coming from is positional,

13:49SPEAKERis calculated and is positioned

13:52SPEAKERwhere you put their little window.

13:54SPEAKERBut the protocol does allow for, I think,

13:57SPEAKERa few different collaborative defaults

14:01SPEAKERwhere you could have an auditorium setting

14:04SPEAKERwhere the windows are all,

14:05SPEAKEReveryone's kind of in a semicircle looking at a shared thing

14:08SPEAKERthat's kind of, I guess, the theater equivalent.

14:11SPEAKEROr it could be in a circle around an object, right?

14:15SPEAKERAround, if you have a jig space is an application

14:18SPEAKERwhere you can do exploded diagrams of 3D models,

14:21SPEAKERand that's a perfect one

14:22SPEAKERwhere they're going to implement SharePlay

14:24SPEAKERand people wearing headsets,

14:25SPEAKERtheoretically would be around the, yeah, exactly.

14:28SPEAKERAnd they would be loading the same 3D model

14:30SPEAKERand that all, the model synced to the backend.

14:32SPEAKERSo one person manipulating that model

14:35SPEAKERwould be sending the data for then that model

14:37SPEAKERto be similarly in real time or as close to real time,

14:40SPEAKERmanipulated back on that end.

14:42SPEAKERAnd not being video is important, which it's also easy.

14:45SPEAKER- Oh yeah, well, we'll talk about that.

14:47SPEAKERI want to, we were going to say that's the good stuff.

14:49SPEAKERWe're saving that for a minute.

14:52SPEAKERIs there like an MCP or emperor mode

14:54SPEAKERwhere you can make like one person's head

14:56SPEAKERreally, really huge and everybody else's are tiny?

14:58SPEAKEROr is that like a per?

14:59SPEAKER- No, no, and honestly, you can make your,

15:01SPEAKERI mean, you can grow those windows, those persona windows,

15:05SPEAKERas big as, I guess, there's a large capsule,

15:08SPEAKERbut you can like shrink and grow them,

15:10SPEAKERthe other people's windows to different sizes

15:13SPEAKERand position them in different places.

15:16SPEAKERRelatively speaking, like if I move your window

15:21SPEAKERto the right of me, yes, your audio is coming

15:24SPEAKERinto my right ear, but it doesn't change my audio

15:29SPEAKERin your virtual space, the only thing it might change

15:33SPEAKERis the camera angle from, that you see in your view of me.

15:38SPEAKERBut the audio that you would hear from me

15:40SPEAKERis still locked to where you put that window.

15:43SPEAKERSo there's a little bit of asymmetricality

15:45SPEAKERin terms of the audio positioning.

15:46SPEAKERSo you got to kind of figure out where it is,

15:48SPEAKEReveryone is relative to each other.

15:50SPEAKERThe camera angles, you have to think of those little

15:51SPEAKERface time windows as like, that's where the selfie cam is.

15:55SPEAKER- So no mystery science theater mode

15:57SPEAKERfor communal movie watching just yet?

15:59SPEAKER- Not yet, not yet, and I'm sure there'll be applications.

16:02SPEAKERAgain, like this is, it's so close to whether it's the iPhone

16:05SPEAKERlaunch moment or the iPad, and honestly,

16:07SPEAKERthe more I think about it, it feels more like

16:09SPEAKERthe iPad moment because so much of what I'm doing

16:12SPEAKERin this headset seems to be replacing things

16:15SPEAKERI would have been doing with the iPad more than the iPhone,

16:19SPEAKERyou know, watching movies, browsing the web,

16:21SPEAKERthe kind of, or even using it as a display

16:24SPEAKERfor a MacBook, right?

16:26SPEAKERLike that's a thing that you can do with the iPad,

16:29SPEAKERbut it's having, as opposed to one iPad in front of you,

16:31SPEAKERit's having as many iPad instances in front of you.

16:35SPEAKERAnd yes, iPad has some form of multitasking,

16:37SPEAKERbut this is actually instances of those applications

16:40SPEAKERrunning in real time.

16:41SPEAKERAnd I'll say one last thing is, remember when the iPad

16:43SPEAKERlaunched, they also bootstrapped, it was iOS, you know,

16:47SPEAKERand they bootstrap a bunch of, the ability to run

16:50SPEAKERiPhone applications on iPad in that small little

16:52SPEAKERscale window, they could blow up.

16:54SPEAKERSo in that sense, that reminds me a lot of how

16:57SPEAKERyou can pull iPad apps into Vision OS.

17:01SPEAKER- That's what I was going to say is it seems like,

17:02SPEAKERlike the, hey, you can run the old apps in a slightly janky,

17:06SPEAKERbut still fully workable way is like,

17:10SPEAKERis the difference in functionality between this and that,

17:13SPEAKERthe iPhone and the iPad launch.

17:16SPEAKER- Okay, so the one thing I was surprised about by this

17:19SPEAKERis it seems like almost everybody who's gotten them

17:21SPEAKERthat I've seen write accounts of like their process,

17:24SPEAKERwhether they did the mail order or the pickup in store

17:28SPEAKERhas ended up, like you end up in the store

17:30SPEAKERno matter what it sounds like.

17:33SPEAKER- I don't know, that's probably not ideal

17:34SPEAKERfor Apple's perspective.

17:35SPEAKER- No, I'd say they probably want to work that out, yeah.

17:38SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, and then the reason you have to do that is

17:40SPEAKERbecause it's, the fit is so important.

17:43SPEAKER- Yeah.

17:44SPEAKER- It's not one size fit all.

17:45SPEAKER- And what Apple's doing, if people don't know,

17:48SPEAKERif you buy a like a Quest headset,

17:51SPEAKERthere are basically two options for it by default.

17:55SPEAKER- Size. - In terms of what touches.

17:57SPEAKERYeah, depth actually, or I guess for the facial interface,

18:01SPEAKERactually I've lost track.

18:02SPEAKERThey used to have like different face interfaces,

18:05SPEAKERwhich is the plastic part with the cushion

18:07SPEAKERthat touches your face that connects to the headset.

18:11SPEAKERThere are ones that accommodate glasses

18:12SPEAKERwith the previous Oculus headsets.

18:15SPEAKERThe new one, the Quest 3, the default facial interface,

18:18SPEAKERyou can slide it in and out,

18:20SPEAKERgive yourself some extra eye relief

18:21SPEAKERand you can change out the pads.

18:23SPEAKERAnd there've been like this whole cottage industry

18:25SPEAKERof third-party companies like VR Cover

18:28SPEAKERmaking their own interfaces that are maybe softer

18:32SPEAKERand more cushier to better conform against faces.

18:34SPEAKER- Sweat resistant, whatever, yeah.

18:35SPEAKER- Exactly, exactly, but none of those have dramatic

18:39SPEAKERlike actual geometry differences,

18:42SPEAKERlike structural differences, shape differences

18:44SPEAKERfor all the different shapes that people have

18:47SPEAKERbecause of how big their forehead might be

18:49SPEAKERor how high their cheeks are.

18:53SPEAKERThe cheekbones are, 'cause primarily you're talking about

18:56SPEAKERwhere this headset rests relative to your forehead,

18:59SPEAKERto your cheeks and kind of the side of your eyes as well.

19:02SPEAKERThose are the primary pressure points.

19:04SPEAKEROn the kind of highly customizable end,

19:08SPEAKERthere's Big Screen Beyond,

19:09SPEAKERwhich is the PC SteamVR-based headset,

19:12SPEAKERand they do a fully customized facial interface,

19:15SPEAKERwhich uses an iPhone scan as well.

19:17SPEAKER- What do you mean, they scan your face?

19:18SPEAKEROh, okay.

19:19SPEAKER- You have to go use a web applet and it uses an iPhone.

19:23SPEAKERYou have to use an iPhone,

19:23SPEAKERwhich has the front-facing camera with the LiDAR,

19:26SPEAKERthe Face ID sensor, and you scan your face,

19:28SPEAKERyou send them that scan,

19:30SPEAKERand they actually have a custom manufacturing process

19:33SPEAKERthat mills a silicone face interface.

19:37SPEAKER- Wow.

19:38SPEAKER- So it is perfect light seal.

19:40SPEAKERIt has every single contour,

19:42SPEAKERbut they are manufacturing those one at a time

19:45SPEAKERfor every user, and that can scale to only as much

19:48SPEAKERas their capacity to scale.

19:50SPEAKERIt's not necessarily a 200,000 units on day one type thing.

19:55SPEAKER- Yeah.

19:56SPEAKER- What Apple's done is in the middle.

19:58SPEAKERSo you do have to scan your face

20:00SPEAKERwhen you decide to purchase this.

20:02SPEAKERSo whether you're going to a store

20:04SPEAKERor you've done the order online,

20:07SPEAKERin order to put an order through,

20:08SPEAKERyou have to scan your face.

20:10SPEAKERYou can do it multiple times,

20:12SPEAKERand it's a matter of like looking up, down, left, right,

20:14SPEAKERlike twice, and then based on that geometry,

20:17SPEAKERthey put you in one of 28 different fits.

20:22SPEAKERSo they have 28 different skews

20:25SPEAKERof what they call the light seal,

20:27SPEAKERand it's really 14 different shapes

20:30SPEAKERwith a narrow and wide option, so 14 times two,

20:33SPEAKERbut it's not just like sizes.

20:34SPEAKERIt's not like smallest, you know, size one,

20:36SPEAKERand 14 is the largest,

20:38SPEAKERand then a narrow and a wide option.

20:40SPEAKERIt's actually different contours

20:42SPEAKERbased on how they touch your cheek.

20:44SPEAKER- I was gonna say, the interesting thing about this

20:46SPEAKERis Apple's one of the few companies in the world

20:48SPEAKERthat's actually big enough to look at

20:50SPEAKERthe whole spectrum of humanity and say,

20:52SPEAKER"Okay, this is the smallest number of pieces

20:56SPEAKERthat we can break the shape of faces down into," right?

21:00SPEAKERJust kind of interesting. - The smallest

21:01SPEAKERthat also can scale, right?

21:02SPEAKERI'm sure you could even more granular

21:03SPEAKER'cause they're not accommodating for like nose sizes

21:06SPEAKER'cause the nose sizes, the way the face interface touches,

21:09SPEAKERthe light seal touches your nose

21:11SPEAKERis that it's just a piece of cloth.

21:13SPEAKERSo theoretically, you could have those 28 different sizes

21:16SPEAKERfor face shapes plus times however many different nose sizes.

21:20SPEAKERThey've chose something that's manageable

21:21SPEAKERfrom a supply chain and like distribution standpoint,

21:24SPEAKERbut to go back to your original question,

21:26SPEAKERwhy it sounds like everyone's going to the store

21:29SPEAKERis that from my experience, the fit isn't right.

21:32SPEAKERLike Jeremy got his, he fitted his,

21:35SPEAKERhe was like a 21W, I'm a 23W

21:37SPEAKER'cause mine has lens inserts

21:39SPEAKERand people have kind of deciphered what those things mean.

21:41SPEAKERThey do differ in terms of the depth,

21:44SPEAKERin terms of how far your eyes are away from the optics

21:48SPEAKERbecause they give you, there is a model

21:50SPEAKERthat gives you a little bit of extra depth

21:52SPEAKERto accommodate for the Zeiss lens inserts.

21:56SPEAKERSome people don't want that depth

21:57SPEAKER'cause they want the widest field of view

21:59SPEAKERand so they won't try to override

22:01SPEAKERwhat Apple is recommending for their face

22:03SPEAKERby going to the store and saying,

22:05SPEAKERI know you told me this thing is the best fit for me

22:07SPEAKERand it maybe fits well,

22:09SPEAKERbut I wanna be as close to the lenses as possible,

22:12SPEAKERso please give me the survey of like,

22:14SPEAKERgive me the five options I can try in the store

22:17SPEAKERand if you set up an appointment for this

22:19SPEAKERand they will literally bring out a cart

22:20SPEAKERwith five different facial interfaces

22:23SPEAKERand let you sit there for as long as you want,

22:26SPEAKERat least in this opening week, in the opening weekend,

22:28SPEAKERas long as you want and try the different fits,

22:31SPEAKERtry the different cushions.

22:33SPEAKERIt's very much like a concierge,

22:36SPEAKERbuying a new fancy car experience

22:38SPEAKERand then if you're happy, you pick the one you want,

22:41SPEAKERyou can have two weeks to exchange

22:43SPEAKERthe one that came with your headset

22:46SPEAKERand then you take home the one

22:47SPEAKERthat hopefully is the best fit for you.

22:49SPEAKER- Can you buy additional gaskets now?

22:51SPEAKER- Yes.

22:52SPEAKER- If you have like another family member

22:53SPEAKERor something you want or, yeah.

22:54SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, so that's 200 bucks

22:56SPEAKERand they'll go scan, yeah, I know, yeah.

22:59SPEAKERI'll tell you, for a $3,500 base price headset,

23:03SPEAKERthat's the 256 gigs, there's $200 for capacity,

23:07SPEAKERso up to 512 and then up to a terabyte's $400 extra

23:10SPEAKERfor a terabyte, so almost 4,000 before tax

23:13SPEAKERand then if you want new light seals, 200 bucks each,

23:17SPEAKERif you want new head straps, that nice knitted head strap,

23:21SPEAKERthat's 100 bucks and then new,

23:24SPEAKERjust the light seal cushions, I believe, are like 20 bucks.

23:28SPEAKER- Yeah, so it's worth mentioning on the light seal,

23:31SPEAKERthere's two parts to this thing.

23:32SPEAKERThere's the cushion part, which is what I was expecting

23:36SPEAKERfrom like using vibes and rifts

23:38SPEAKERand all that stuff over the years

23:39SPEAKERand then that's the padded thing it magnets onto.

23:42SPEAKERThe light seal is like the,

23:44SPEAKERit looks like the side of the headset, basically.

23:46SPEAKERIt's like the part that comes out of the front

23:49SPEAKERof the headset, where the headset is flat

23:52SPEAKERand then goes back to where it hits your face.

23:54SPEAKERSo it's a-- - It's like a shroud,

23:55SPEAKERbasically.

23:57SPEAKER- Yeah.

23:58SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, it's the thing that makes

23:59SPEAKERthe headset look thick.

24:01SPEAKER- Yeah. - It's this mesh thing.

24:02SPEAKERIt's like the tunnel that you're looking through

24:06SPEAKERthat connects the thing that's your face.

24:10SPEAKERIt's hard to explain in an audio podcast.

24:12SPEAKER- It's the thing that makes it not a pair of glasses

24:14SPEAKERand makes it a pair of goggles, right?

24:16SPEAKERIt's the thing that closes off the outside world

24:18SPEAKERon your peripherals and that whole thing removes,

24:21SPEAKERwhich I didn't understand that from anything

24:23SPEAKERthat we'd seen until, so full disclosure,

24:25SPEAKERI went over to Norm's house on Monday

24:26SPEAKERand spent an hour in the headset.

24:29SPEAKERThank you for letting me do that, by the way, Norm.

24:30SPEAKERI appreciate it. - No problem.

24:31SPEAKER- I goo-ing up your headset for you.

24:35SPEAKERThe straps feel really good.

24:38SPEAKERThe one that looks like a pair of Nikes felt really good.

24:40SPEAKERI was really surprised.

24:42SPEAKER- So the Space Age looks like a piece

24:45SPEAKERof NASA equipment one, the ridged one?

24:47SPEAKER- Yeah, it has ridges and it's,

24:49SPEAKERso the headset does include two straps.

24:53SPEAKERWhat they showed last year was this knitted head strap,

24:57SPEAKERwhich is, to their credit, a lot better

25:01SPEAKERthan any of the bundled straps

25:02SPEAKERthat come with the Oculus headsets.

25:04SPEAKERThe Oculus headsets come with two pieces

25:07SPEAKERof like an inch and a half wide of strapping

25:13SPEAKERthat look like-- - The elastic straps.

25:15SPEAKER- Exactly, elastic straps with the top strap and Velcro on

25:18SPEAKERand they're serviceable, but anyone buying a Quest,

25:21SPEAKERI would highly recommend them looking to a third party strap

25:24SPEAKERor a rigid strap, you know, like the,

25:26SPEAKERI guess what they call the elite strap,

25:29SPEAKERwhich they sell for like 70 bucks.

25:31SPEAKERWhat Apple decided to do is they did not want to go

25:34SPEAKERwith a rigid strap, they did not want hard plastic.

25:38SPEAKERAnd I think they really know that people are gonna wanna

25:40SPEAKERwatch movies on this and they want people to be able

25:43SPEAKERto lay the back of their head on a chair

25:46SPEAKERor on a couch comfortably.

25:48SPEAKERSo they could have gone with just your standard,

25:51SPEAKERyour jock strap type material,

25:53SPEAKERbut they went with something that widens in the back

25:56SPEAKERor is wider in the back that kind of cups the back

25:59SPEAKERof your head more.

26:00SPEAKERAnd so, you know, while it may be just like an inch

26:03SPEAKERand a quarter, inch and a half at the point

26:05SPEAKERwhere it connects to the side bands,

26:07SPEAKERby the time it gets to the back of your head,

26:08SPEAKERit's like, you know, two and a half, three inches

26:11SPEAKERand it does mesh out and they have two strings essentially

26:14SPEAKERon the top and bottom that then tighten and loosen

26:17SPEAKERwith a knob on the side.

26:19SPEAKERAnd that tightening process is super easy and comfortable.

26:23SPEAKERI've been really enjoying that.

26:24SPEAKER- It's, it breathes, the material they used feels

26:27SPEAKERlike a fly knit type material for a shoe too.

26:31SPEAKERSo it didn't, like at no point,

26:32SPEAKEReven though there was a lot of coverage on the back

26:34SPEAKERof my head, did the back of my head start feeling sweaty

26:36SPEAKERor anything?

26:36SPEAKERIt was just, you just forgot it was there after a minute.

26:39SPEAKER- And it accordions, right?

26:40SPEAKERLike, you know, when you get to the smallest size,

26:43SPEAKERit, you know, it bunches up in just the right way.

26:45SPEAKERIt loosens up in just the right way.

26:47SPEAKERSo you get a lot of, there's three sizes of that one too,

26:50SPEAKERthat comes in small, medium, large,

26:54SPEAKERbut it's still a soft strap.

26:55SPEAKERAnd because you don't have this rigid, you know,

26:58SPEAKERyou don't have a rigid or a counterweight and, you know,

27:01SPEAKERhave a rigid strap to help support the weight of the headset

27:03SPEAKERthat's in front of you.

27:04SPEAKERAnd it's a relatively heavy headset,

27:06SPEAKEReven with the battery being outside of it,

27:09SPEAKERa lot of that glass and aluminum and display weight

27:13SPEAKERjust droops down in your face.

27:14SPEAKERAnd even if you have the best fit for the light seal

27:19SPEAKERand you have the perfect fit for the back strap,

27:23SPEAKERit is a hard thing to use for more than an hour at a time

27:28SPEAKERif you're just looking forward and not reclining.

27:30SPEAKERReclining, I find it much easier to use.

27:32SPEAKER- So I was, it's funny, I was gonna ask that.

27:34SPEAKERSince I was using yours with your face seal,

27:36SPEAKERwhich I had received,

27:38SPEAKERthe machine told me I needed a different size face seal

27:40SPEAKERthan you had, which is fine.

27:43SPEAKERBut I was curious what the, if the comfort is better

27:47SPEAKERwith the ideally properly fitting face seal.

27:49SPEAKERAnd it sounds like at the end of an hour,

27:52SPEAKERI was pretty good, it turns out.

27:55SPEAKER- And the thing that helps the most

27:57SPEAKERis having some type of top strap support.

27:59SPEAKERAnd so the second thing they included,

28:01SPEAKERwhich from what I understand was a later addition,

28:04SPEAKERmaybe something that they decided after the WWDC reception,

28:08SPEAKERis kind of like your jock strap equivalent,

28:11SPEAKERwhich is a band that goes in the back of the head

28:13SPEAKERand the band that goes in the top of the head.

28:15SPEAKERIt's Velcro to tighten.

28:17SPEAKERIt doesn't have any of that fancy knit material.

28:19SPEAKERIt doesn't have your fancy knob to tighten,

28:21SPEAKERbut it's like, okay, you guys wanted a top strap,

28:24SPEAKERhere's what we'll include in the package for you.

28:28SPEAKERIt's not actually what they teased last year,

28:30SPEAKERwhich is a top strap that you could attach

28:32SPEAKERto the back knit version, which is what I wanted

28:36SPEAKERand what I've kind of cobbled together

28:37SPEAKERusing a third-party top strap I have here.

28:41SPEAKER- Yeah, so I was gonna say,

28:46SPEAKERthis sounds goofy, but the knob that's on that default strap

28:50SPEAKERfeels really good.

28:53SPEAKERI don't know if you remember when you first used the PSVR,

28:55SPEAKERbut you first used the PSVR and you're like,

28:57SPEAKERoh, I just put this on and then I turn the thing

28:59SPEAKERand then it's like, I don't have to do any,

29:01SPEAKERthere's no Velcroing, I'm not Velcroing my hair

29:03SPEAKERinto this band, it's not a take it off, adjust it,

29:07SPEAKERput it back on kind of situation.

29:09SPEAKERYou just put it on your face

29:10SPEAKERand you twist the knob until your head squeezed

29:12SPEAKERa comfortable amount and then you're good to go.

29:14SPEAKERAnd that goes a long way.

29:19SPEAKERHave you used the two strap, the jock strap looking thing?

29:22SPEAKER- Yeah, and it's better than the default by itself.

29:27SPEAKERWhat people have actually hacked together

29:28SPEAKERis they've spent the extra hundred dollars

29:30SPEAKERon getting another knit back strap

29:32SPEAKERand then 3D printed attachment so you can click that

29:38SPEAKERand use a second knit one with its own dial

29:43SPEAKERas the top strap.

29:44SPEAKER- So your whole head is just ensconced?

29:46SPEAKER- Yeah, ensconced in your Nike knit looking like straps.

29:50SPEAKERAnd we've gone like 30 minutes just talking

29:52SPEAKERabout the fit of this and there's a lot to talk about.

29:56SPEAKER- Okay, okay, okay.

29:57SPEAKERSo let's do, I mean, the last thing is I'm waiting

30:01SPEAKERfor somebody to just put it in a motorcycle helmet

30:03SPEAKERwhere it's just like jammed on your face

30:04SPEAKERin a motorcycle helmet and that's all you have.

30:07SPEAKER- I'll tell you the hacks

30:08SPEAKERthat people have come up with so far,

30:10SPEAKERsome people have taken off their light seals completely

30:12SPEAKERand they want to operate it with like light coming in

30:14SPEAKERfrom the side so they can get the headset

30:15SPEAKERjust as close to their eyelashes and eyeballs as possible.

30:19SPEAKERIt works if you kind of attach it with like a rubber band

30:22SPEAKERor clip it to like a baseball cap.

30:24SPEAKERAnd so you're basically the weight is on the baseball cap

30:26SPEAKERand it's almost like a visor that hangs off of the lid,

30:32SPEAKERthe brim.

30:33SPEAKERAnd I've yet to try that but there will be a whole ecosystem

30:38SPEAKERof third-party accessories and third-party straps

30:40SPEAKERto make it more comfortable, there have to be.

30:42SPEAKER- Well, and the way it mounts and removes the straps

30:44SPEAKERis pretty fast.

30:45SPEAKEROkay, we got some stuff here.

30:47SPEAKER- Actually, if this is the last time

30:49SPEAKERwe're gonna talk about fit, I got one fit question.

30:51SPEAKER- Yes, yes, yes.

30:52SPEAKER- Before we move on, how does it rest on your nose?

30:55SPEAKERI mean, obviously that's gonna be dependent

30:56SPEAKERon which strap you're using,

30:57SPEAKERlike what fitting you got at the store and everything.

30:59SPEAKERBut like I have found,

31:00SPEAKERI don't know if people experience this a lot,

31:01SPEAKERI've found in using VR headsets,

31:03SPEAKERI've got some, I don't know if there's a name

31:05SPEAKERfor this phobia of having your nose,

31:07SPEAKERyour nostrils pinched too much.

31:09SPEAKER- There is no weight on your nose.

31:11SPEAKER- None, oh wow. - By design.

31:13SPEAKERThe weight is all either on your forehead or chin mostly

31:16SPEAKERbecause the way it touches your nose is just cheekbones.

31:18SPEAKERYeah, sorry, cheekbones.

31:20SPEAKERThe way it touches, the way it covers your nose

31:22SPEAKERis with a piece of fabric

31:24SPEAKERand it's a pretty wide piece of fabric.

31:26SPEAKERThey're not accommodating for all nose sizes

31:29SPEAKERwith a perfect fit.

31:30SPEAKERIt's just fabric that rests there.

31:32SPEAKER- Okay. - And the gap

31:33SPEAKERfor the nose is big.

31:34SPEAKERThe place it touched on my cheekbones,

31:36SPEAKERit's like under my pupils, not inside close to,

31:40SPEAKERlike it didn't, I didn't get any pressure on my sinuses

31:43SPEAKEReven with the bad fit, which was unusual for headsets.

31:46SPEAKER- Okay.

31:49SPEAKER- Okay, so let's talk about,

31:50SPEAKERlike when you first put the headset on,

31:51SPEAKERthe thing that struck me was the pass-through.

31:53SPEAKERAnd I wasn't expecting both the,

31:57SPEAKERlike the latency is basically non-existent it feels like,

32:00SPEAKERwhich is new for video.

32:02SPEAKERThat's not something we've typically optimized for

32:03SPEAKERon video processing chips.

32:06SPEAKERAnd like it handled things like,

32:08SPEAKERwe were standing in your living room,

32:09SPEAKERthere's a big giant window looking outside.

32:11SPEAKERIt was a sunny day.

32:12SPEAKERI didn't have any problems dealing with me

32:14SPEAKERlooking out the window.

32:15SPEAKERIt didn't have any problems with me switching

32:16SPEAKERto the dark part of the room.

32:18SPEAKERI was really pleasantly surprised by,

32:21SPEAKERlike I don't imagine myself walking down the street

32:25SPEAKERwith one of these things on ever,

32:27SPEAKERbut I can understand why people would be like,

32:28SPEAKERoh yeah, you can totally do this

32:30SPEAKERafter putting it on

32:30SPEAKERand having that kind of first experience.

32:33SPEAKER- That's something they absolutely prioritized

32:35SPEAKERwas it is a pass-through first device.

32:37SPEAKERAs much as on the hardware side, it is a VR headset.

32:40SPEAKERThe VR aspect of it,

32:42SPEAKERmeaning putting you in environments and locations

32:45SPEAKERand games is secondary to putting you

32:49SPEAKERin whatever real space you're in through video,

32:53SPEAKERof course, stereo video,

32:54SPEAKERreprojected video,

32:55SPEAKERand then letting you place virtual objects,

32:59SPEAKERwindow panes.

33:00SPEAKER- But I mean, they're handling that stereo video

33:03SPEAKERand the de-warping and the occlusion and all that stuff,

33:07SPEAKERfrankly, better than anything I've ever used.

33:09SPEAKERI haven't spent a lot of time with Quest 3,

33:12SPEAKERbut other than that,

33:14SPEAKERthe headsets that tried to do occlusion kind of muffed it.

33:18SPEAKERAnd in this case,

33:19SPEAKERlike when you put your hand through something,

33:20SPEAKERyour hand intersects it at what feels like the right spot

33:23SPEAKERwhen you're putting your hand through a virtual object,

33:24SPEAKERstuff like that.

33:25SPEAKERAnd it has this nice shimmery edge to it

33:27SPEAKERwhen you put it through it.

33:29SPEAKER- So it does it better.

33:30SPEAKERAnd we'll use Quest 3 as an example

33:31SPEAKER'cause the Quest 3 is also a pass-through first headset

33:33SPEAKERwhere by default, when you put it on,

33:35SPEAKERyou have color stereo vision that's reprojected.

33:39SPEAKERIt's a perfect, at least a spatial recreation

33:43SPEAKERof what's in your space.

33:44SPEAKERLike if you take the headset off where an object is

33:46SPEAKERis exactly where it would be,

33:48SPEAKERthe fidelity and color is the difference.

33:50SPEAKERSo the difference in the Apple Vision Pro

33:52SPEAKERis one, high resolution.

33:55SPEAKERSo things are just sharper and clearer,

33:57SPEAKERnot as sharp and clear as you really want.

33:59SPEAKER- On the camera or the screen?

34:01SPEAKER- The camera, the camera, both absolutely.

34:04SPEAKERBut in terms of the difference in the pass-through,

34:06SPEAKERwhat allows it to be better

34:07SPEAKERis high resolution cameras for video input.

34:11SPEAKERThey have a custom ship, the R1,

34:13SPEAKERthat allows for the lowest latency at 90 Hertz.

34:15SPEAKERSo I think if the video is coming through

34:17SPEAKERat 90 frames a second,

34:19SPEAKERit's extremely responsive,

34:21SPEAKERwaving your hand in front of you,

34:23SPEAKERyour hand is moving as fast.

34:24SPEAKERThere's no lag between

34:26SPEAKERwhen you feel like you're moving your hand

34:28SPEAKERand what the movement of your hand looks like

34:30SPEAKERthrough the headset.

34:32SPEAKEROther thing they're doing

34:33SPEAKERis the correction of the stereo optics is just better.

34:40SPEAKEROne of the big problem with pass-through video

34:43SPEAKERin mixed reality is the placement of the cameras

34:46SPEAKERthat you use aren't where your eyeballs are.

34:49SPEAKERYou need them really to be where your eyeballs are.

34:51SPEAKERThey're projected, they're forward, right?

34:53SPEAKERBecause that's just the physical design of the headset.

34:55SPEAKERAnd so they have to do a bunch of calculation

34:58SPEAKERto warp the image and basically reproject it

35:01SPEAKERto make it look like where your eyeballs are

35:04SPEAKERso everything is stereo correct.

35:06SPEAKERAnd the Quest does a decent job of it,

35:08SPEAKERbut where it really fails is in the near field,

35:11SPEAKERstuff that's kind of up close to you.

35:12SPEAKERAnd that's why when you wear a Quest,

35:14SPEAKERwhen you hold a phone up for you,

35:15SPEAKERyou see all the kind of warping of that phone.

35:18SPEAKERThere's none of that here.

35:19SPEAKERThey really have nailed perfectly

35:22SPEAKERthe reprojected images coming in

35:25SPEAKERto have it fit where it thinks your eyes are.

35:28SPEAKERAnd then the last thing is that occlusion,

35:30SPEAKERwhere it's the only system that has built-in,

35:33SPEAKERsystem-wide, you can't turn it off,

35:35SPEAKERrecognition of your hands, your arms,

35:38SPEAKERand up to your shoulders, really.

35:40SPEAKERAnd it's doing in a computer vision way.

35:42SPEAKERIt's of course doing skeletal modeling

35:45SPEAKERfor the interaction stuff, but like Will said,

35:48SPEAKERit's drawing a stenciled outline,

35:50SPEAKERrefreshing at 90 frames a second again,

35:52SPEAKERof your two hands,

35:53SPEAKERso that regardless of what environment you may be in,

35:56SPEAKERwhat virtual objects you may have,

35:58SPEAKERwhen you put your hand up,

35:59SPEAKERyou will always see video pass through of your hands

36:03SPEAKERon top of the objects.

36:05SPEAKER- Well, and it's exactly where your sense of pre-oception

36:09SPEAKERdetects the hand.

36:10SPEAKERSo when you get close with the Quest

36:12SPEAKERor with these other headsets,

36:14SPEAKERthen your hand either gets really, really big

36:15SPEAKERor really, really tiny,

36:16SPEAKERdepending on how they're doing the warping.

36:17SPEAKERAnd it didn't, it was bonkers how well that worked.

36:22SPEAKER- How does the camera do in low light, Norm?

36:25SPEAKER- Not great.

36:27SPEAKER- Okay.

36:28SPEAKER- It still tracks in low light,

36:30SPEAKER'cause it's doing IR emitters for the slam tracking.

36:35SPEAKERBut you can tell, I mean, it does exposure,

36:38SPEAKERlike you said, it has some,

36:41SPEAKERlike I think a little bit of HDR built in,

36:43SPEAKERin that it is the tone mapping

36:45SPEAKERof the image that's coming through

36:47SPEAKERis balancing all the exposure levels in your environments.

36:50SPEAKERAnd so it does do exposure shift.

36:52SPEAKERYou can look outside a bright window very quickly,

36:55SPEAKERbut very noticeably will shift

36:57SPEAKERso you can look at what's outside.

37:00SPEAKERIt was not perfect HDR where,

37:01SPEAKERI mean, it's kind of adjusts

37:02SPEAKERas if your eyes would be adjusting.

37:04SPEAKERSo you can look outside,

37:06SPEAKERbut outside of like a normal lit room,

37:09SPEAKERyou know, with like lights, you do see noise.

37:13SPEAKERYou don't see increased like judder

37:16SPEAKERor smearing in low light.

37:19SPEAKERThe smearing is just there all the time also,

37:20SPEAKERbut that may be more a result of the OLED panels they have

37:24SPEAKERand how bright they set those OLED panels.

37:27SPEAKERAs a consequence,

37:28SPEAKERthe persistence of those pixels last a little longer.

37:31SPEAKER- Do you have any control at all

37:32SPEAKERover the pass through exposure

37:34SPEAKERor is it entirely handled by that set?

37:36SPEAKER- Entirely automatic.

37:37SPEAKER- Yeah, okay.

37:38SPEAKERLike I watched, I think it was Casey Neistat's video

37:40SPEAKERwhere he did, he had a lot of like,

37:41SPEAKERhere's what I'm seeing

37:42SPEAKERand then a shot somebody else was shooting

37:43SPEAKERof him out externally.

37:44SPEAKERAnd the external video was so much brighter

37:47SPEAKERthan what he was seeing inside.

37:48SPEAKERAnd so I guess that's just the headset thinks it should be.

37:52SPEAKER- Yep, yep, yep.

37:53SPEAKERAnd while there is a brightness setting,

37:55SPEAKERlike it's the pass through brightness

37:57SPEAKERnever gets that bright.

37:58SPEAKERYou never, I mean, that's just the limitation

38:00SPEAKERof how bright those panels are through the pancake lenses,

38:05SPEAKERwhich takes away, you know,

38:06SPEAKERorders of magnitude of brightness,

38:08SPEAKERbut the content, the virtual content,

38:09SPEAKERI think I find it pretty bright,

38:11SPEAKERlike for movies and the virtual content looks fantastic.

38:15SPEAKER- Well, and because of the light seals

38:16SPEAKERdo a good job of blocking out the outside light,

38:18SPEAKERor I adjust to whatever the norm

38:20SPEAKERthat the headset presents is.

38:21SPEAKERSo like, it feels at no point did it feel dim

38:24SPEAKERinside the headset.

38:27SPEAKERLet's see, did they do the foveated rendering

38:30SPEAKERon the video too, or is it just on the other stuff?

38:34SPEAKER- Yeah, and that's the resolution of this, right?

38:37SPEAKERSo, you know, while the first thing people may notice

38:40SPEAKERis the, that's passed through and it's being responsive

38:42SPEAKERand people who may not use, have never used VR before

38:45SPEAKERmay feel like this should be the baseline

38:47SPEAKERand going forward, this feels like

38:49SPEAKERit should be the baseline of pass through quality.

38:52SPEAKERWhat people aren't thinking about for some VR users

38:55SPEAKERis just how sharp these panels are.

38:58SPEAKERLike they're taking for granted

38:59SPEAKERthat we've had over 10 years of VR

39:02SPEAKERwithout panels anywhere near as high resolution

39:06SPEAKERas what they put on here.

39:07SPEAKERI think a lot of the cost and expense of this headset

39:09SPEAKERgoes into this display system.

39:12SPEAKERPeople, iFix has taken it apart,

39:14SPEAKERso I think they've identified

39:15SPEAKERthat these are Sony micro OLEDs

39:18SPEAKERthat are about, you know, like 1.4 inches.

39:21SPEAKERAnd they looked at, with the microscope,

39:24SPEAKERthe individual pixels and calculated roughly,

39:26SPEAKERI think I want to say a 35 PPD

39:29SPEAKERand the pixel dimensions being roughly 3,600 pixels

39:34SPEAKERby like 3,400 pixels.

39:36SPEAKER- That's crazy.

39:37SPEAKER- And they've tied that to, you know, going to CES

39:40SPEAKERand what Sony and other like display manufacturers

39:43SPEAKERlike BOE have showed, like they've kind of narrowed in

39:46SPEAKERon what the supply chain looks like

39:49SPEAKERor what Apple may have sourced.

39:50SPEAKERIt may not be the exact thing

39:51SPEAKER'cause they always have special relationships

39:53SPEAKERwith display manufacturers.

39:55SPEAKERSo maybe pick a variant of something,

39:56SPEAKERbut Sony also makes these micro OLEDs

39:59SPEAKERor equivalents available to other partners at extreme cost.

40:03SPEAKERAnd I don't know what the budget is.

40:04SPEAKERAs a comparison, Big Screen Beyond,

40:06SPEAKERwhich is that PC VR headset,

40:09SPEAKERalso uses micro OLED panels,

40:11SPEAKERhas a per eye resolution of 2560 by 2560,

40:15SPEAKERwhich I found best in class for PC VR,

40:18SPEAKERlike playing any PC VR game, watching movies.

40:21SPEAKERQuest 3 is like 2100 by 2100 equivalent.

40:25SPEAKERAnd so this is like many millions of more pixels per eye.

40:31SPEAKERAnd the difference is so noticeable.

40:35SPEAKERAnd because they have much more graphical horsepower

40:38SPEAKERon this, I think they're super sampling.

40:40SPEAKERAnd so even on windows where you might see anti-aliasing,

40:48SPEAKERI do a pretty good job of trying to pixel peep

40:50SPEAKERand trying to spot the jaggies.

40:53SPEAKERYou can barely, barely, barely notice them.

40:55SPEAKERThe most you can notice is some of the anti-aliasing.

40:57SPEAKER- I was really shocked.

40:58SPEAKERI was able to look at my phone through the pass-through

41:01SPEAKERand see the phone screen fine.

41:02SPEAKERBut when I was looking at windows rendered by the device,

41:08SPEAKERthere was no, like you could rest your eyeballs on them

41:11SPEAKERin the spatial computing area of the thing.

41:16SPEAKERAnd you couldn't see, there was no way to see pixels.

41:18SPEAKERYou couldn't see pixels at all.

41:19SPEAKERThe only places the pixels showed up was in video.

41:21SPEAKERAnd that was a side effect of compression, I think,

41:23SPEAKERprobably rather than anything else.

41:25SPEAKER- I think the places to look are like rectangles

41:28SPEAKERand like hard edge rectangles,

41:31SPEAKERbecause even like the horizon line, if you turn your head,

41:35SPEAKERthe headset has to compensate for that

41:37SPEAKERand is no longer really aligning with, you know,

41:39SPEAKERthe horizontal lines of the display panels.

41:42SPEAKERAnd if an application doesn't have super sampling

41:45SPEAKERor doesn't really put in anti-aliasing,

41:47SPEAKERthey can start to see that kind of like

41:49SPEAKERshimmering rope effect at the edge.

41:53SPEAKERBut they do such a good job

41:54SPEAKERthat you're not noticing anything remotely.

41:57SPEAKEROh, you could call screen door and pixel fill is complete.

42:01SPEAKERI mean, it's not human eye resolution,

42:05SPEAKERlike the PPD of what a human eye can detect,

42:07SPEAKERwhich is like an upward in the 80 or 90 PPD,

42:10SPEAKERbut anywhere in this past, like 30, 35,

42:14SPEAKERit's well and good enough for reading

42:16SPEAKERand certainly for any type of visual media.

42:20SPEAKER- How do you interact with this thing?

42:21SPEAKERThere's no controller, right?

42:22SPEAKERSo there's a couple of buttons on the headset

42:24SPEAKERand then there's gestures, basically?

42:28SPEAKER- Yeah, so no controllers.

42:30SPEAKERAnd that was like one of those other big,

42:32SPEAKERlike controversial decisions they made,

42:34SPEAKERbecause we're so used to in traditional VR

42:37SPEAKERhaving motion controls that allow

42:40SPEAKERfor the abstraction of like complex actions.

42:44SPEAKER- Look, Norm, it's like a phone without a physical keyboard.

42:46SPEAKERWhy would you want that?

42:48SPEAKER- That's the analogy.

42:51SPEAKERSo the quote unquote magic,

42:56SPEAKERthe thing they've worked really hard at

42:57SPEAKERis eye tracking on this.

43:00SPEAKEREye tracking and the hand modeling

43:02SPEAKERand pairing those into this multimodal interface.

43:05SPEAKERSo as opposed to eye tracking just being used

43:07SPEAKERfor foveate rendering, and foveate rendering is there

43:09SPEAKERto answer your question in the captured video

43:11SPEAKERthat you can capture on the headset.

43:13SPEAKERYou absolutely notice this box of sharpness

43:16SPEAKERthat's moving across as you dart your eyes across.

43:18SPEAKERIt's very fast.

43:19SPEAKERThere's a ton of eye trackers, eye trackers in here.

43:24SPEAKER- The foveated rendering, for people who don't know,

43:26SPEAKERis the center of your retina

43:29SPEAKERhas a denser image resolution

43:32SPEAKERthan the rest of the eyeball.

43:33SPEAKERSo if you can track the eye movement,

43:35SPEAKERthen you know where people are looking.

43:37SPEAKERAnd if you know that,

43:38SPEAKERthen you can only render high resolution

43:40SPEAKERin the area that's directly where that sweet spot

43:43SPEAKERof your eyeball is.

43:45SPEAKERAnd they do such a good job with that,

43:47SPEAKERI didn't even realize it was doing...

43:49SPEAKERSometimes when you do foveate rendering,

43:50SPEAKERsometimes you see the edges of that and stuff like that

43:52SPEAKERif the eye tracking is slow or lags or whatever.

43:55SPEAKERAnd I got none of that.

43:56SPEAKERI don't know about you, Norm.

43:57SPEAKER- Yeah, and then PSVR2 has foveate rendering.

44:00SPEAKERIt's really interesting 'cause you would hear John Carmack

44:03SPEAKERand Michael Ehrbrech downplay foveate rendering a little bit

44:07SPEAKERin past MetaConnect or Oculus Connect conferences

44:09SPEAKERsaying that back then, three, four years ago,

44:12SPEAKERin their foveate rendering tests,

44:14SPEAKERit just wouldn't...

44:16SPEAKERYou'd either have to expand the render box

44:18SPEAKERfor it to not be noticeable,

44:20SPEAKERin which case you only get 10, 15% performance,

44:23SPEAKERor it just wouldn't track fast enough

44:26SPEAKERbecause your eyes are constantly fluttering

44:29SPEAKERand doing these micro movements.

44:32SPEAKERBut both PSVR2 and Apple Vision Pro

44:34SPEAKERreally show that foveate rendering has a great effect.

44:37SPEAKERI mean, neither of these devices,

44:39SPEAKERunless you're really, really looking for it,

44:42SPEAKERdo you notice it in headset.

44:43SPEAKERLike, it's where your eyes are looking at

44:45SPEAKERand it's moving fast enough.

44:46SPEAKERThose render adjustments are moving fast enough

44:51SPEAKERand that box is big enough

44:53SPEAKERthat the sweet spot is always gonna be sharp.

44:57SPEAKERWhen that means that they can render things

44:58SPEAKERand they can do super sampling

44:59SPEAKERand they can make the most out of

45:02SPEAKERtrying to get 90 FPS onto this,

45:05SPEAKERsomething that's essentially running an ARM chip,

45:09SPEAKERtheir laptop ARM chip here, the M2.

45:13SPEAKERSo eye tracking is really accurate,

45:16SPEAKERnot perfect, but really accurate,

45:19SPEAKERbetter than any like Tobii equivalent eye tracking

45:21SPEAKERI've used in the past.

45:22SPEAKERYou went through a calibration pass

45:24SPEAKERand your input is gaze plus a small micro pinch.

45:30SPEAKERYou see videos of people putting their hands out

45:32SPEAKERand like tapping their hands together.

45:34SPEAKERThat's completely unnecessary.

45:35SPEAKERLike they've modeled the hands

45:37SPEAKERwhere in the cameras looking at your hands

45:39SPEAKERhave a wide enough field of view.

45:40SPEAKERIf you rest your hand on your lap

45:42SPEAKERas comfortably as like people you do

45:45SPEAKERwhen you're maybe sitting on the couch,

45:46SPEAKERjust resting on your leg

45:47SPEAKERand just do the smallest tapping of your fingers together,

45:51SPEAKERit will know that you've tapped it

45:53SPEAKERand it will be responsive enough

45:54SPEAKERand it's doing prediction in some cases there,

45:57SPEAKERbut then correspond that with where you're looking at

46:02SPEAKERto then click on links, scroll through windows,

46:06SPEAKERmove windows and all your interaction

46:08SPEAKERis combination of eye tracking plus these small taps.

46:11SPEAKER- This was the part when I was using it

46:14SPEAKERthat felt the most like some, it felt new, right?

46:18SPEAKERIt felt like something completely new

46:19SPEAKERbecause I was doing things like taking a pinch

46:22SPEAKERand then just doing wrist flex

46:24SPEAKERto scroll through a browser window.

46:26SPEAKERNow the place that it broke was that the eye tracking for me

46:29SPEAKERand I only did one calibration pass,

46:31SPEAKERwhich apparently I think if you do more calibration passes

46:34SPEAKERit supposedly improves over time.

46:36SPEAKER- I don't know about that.

46:37SPEAKERI think it just, new calibration passes are,

46:40SPEAKERI would recommend them

46:41SPEAKERif you're not getting satisfactory results,

46:42SPEAKERbut I don't think they can aggregate.

46:45SPEAKERI think they just kind of reset.

46:47SPEAKER- The thing I noticed was there were parts of the headset

46:49SPEAKERwhere I was looking where it would not,

46:52SPEAKERit would consistently think I was looking

46:53SPEAKERjust a little bit below where I was looking.

46:55SPEAKERSo I clicked on the wrong, yeah, yeah.

46:59SPEAKER- Very, very, like it happens once a day.

47:02SPEAKERThis is extremely frustrating

47:03SPEAKER'cause there's no mouse cursor.

47:05SPEAKER- Your only alternative is to try to look up

47:08SPEAKERslightly above the thing that you're trying to track.

47:10SPEAKERAnd that's turns out shockingly hard to do.

47:13SPEAKER- I was reading some forum posts.

47:14SPEAKERI guess you can use like a magic track pad with this thing,

47:17SPEAKERbut it sounds like the integration is pretty jank.

47:19SPEAKER- Yeah, so I'll talk about that.

47:21SPEAKERBy default, they want people to use like their,

47:24SPEAKERthey really, really want people to love

47:26SPEAKERand use this thing they spent so much effort on,

47:28SPEAKERwhich is gaze and tap.

47:30SPEAKERAnd when it works, like browsing a web,

47:33SPEAKERit really does feel special.

47:36SPEAKERAll the kind of care and effort in design

47:39SPEAKERand that they've put into it

47:41SPEAKERin terms of like making it feel natural,

47:43SPEAKERadding springiness to it,

47:46SPEAKERgiving the windows a feeling of momentum.

47:49SPEAKERLike this is the stuff that made their implementation

47:51SPEAKERof multi-touch feel better than multi-touch

47:55SPEAKERthat was on other phones, like Android phones

47:58SPEAKERor even like those previous,

47:59SPEAKERthose old capacitive smartphones.

48:01SPEAKERIt's like there was a speediness or responsiveness

48:04SPEAKERto that input that makes their implementation of that

48:09SPEAKERjust feel really nice.

48:10SPEAKERI think you notice that well.

48:12SPEAKER- Yeah, like when you would look at the grab bar,

48:15SPEAKERso there's a grab bar in the bottom of most windows.

48:17SPEAKERAnd when you look at it, it kind of highlights,

48:19SPEAKERyou pinch and then you move your arm

48:20SPEAKERand you can kind of just like zoom around

48:23SPEAKERand it was shocking the responsiveness.

48:25SPEAKERIt felt good.

48:27SPEAKERIt felt like when I let go of it,

48:29SPEAKERit put it where I wanted it to be rather than where it was,

48:31SPEAKERwhich was what you want in that situation.

48:34SPEAKER- And so when it feels good, which is most of the time,

48:36SPEAKERit's awesome to a point where you're not thinking about it.

48:39SPEAKERAnd you can kind of be lazy.

48:41SPEAKERLike you can kind of be your guy in the chair in Wally,

48:44SPEAKERjust like looking up web browsers and moving things around.

48:48SPEAKERBut when it fails, it's so frustrating

48:51SPEAKERbecause you kind of have to strain your eyes

48:53SPEAKERto train them to look where you want to click.

48:56SPEAKERAnd when there's a mismatch

48:58SPEAKERbetween what you know you're looking at

49:00SPEAKERand where it's highlighting, that just breaks it completely.

49:04SPEAKERSo the way to overcome that is direct touch.

49:06SPEAKERAnd something you can do,

49:07SPEAKERlike if you put up any window, like an iPad window,

49:11SPEAKERyou can bring it close

49:12SPEAKERand you can poke your finger through this virtual plane

49:15SPEAKERand use it as like a virtual button.

49:18SPEAKERYou can actually tap links

49:19SPEAKERand you can scroll with your finger.

49:21SPEAKERThere's something you can do in the Quest.

49:23SPEAKERAnd I actually love the direct touch implementation

49:26SPEAKERin the Quest.

49:26SPEAKERI love being able to grab the side of a window

49:29SPEAKERand kind of move it and place it where I want.

49:31SPEAKERThey don't have the gaze plus the pinch input.

49:34SPEAKERAnd so they've done a lot of effort in their hand tracking

49:37SPEAKERto make direct touch feel really good.

49:40SPEAKERApple seems to de-prioritize direct touch.

49:43SPEAKERYou can do it, but it's just not their preferred way

49:46SPEAKERof letting you interface with the spatial stuff.

49:51SPEAKERAnd if you want to bring a cursor in there,

49:53SPEAKERit's trackpad only.

49:54SPEAKERThey decided to explicitly omit Bluetooth mouse.

49:58SPEAKERYou cannot pair it.

49:59SPEAKERIt says no Bluetooth mouse supported.

50:02SPEAKERAnd when you bring a trackpad in there,

50:04SPEAKERa magic trackpad, $100 magic trackpad,

50:07SPEAKERyou get a very similar,

50:08SPEAKERlike if you're using a mouse on a trackpad on the iPad,

50:11SPEAKERlike a little circle that floats in the screen.

50:15SPEAKERAnd that circle only activates in the screen

50:19SPEAKERthat you're looking at.

50:20SPEAKERSo you can't be looking at one screen

50:23SPEAKERand have your trackpad cursor float into the other screen.

50:26SPEAKERAnd they don't retain the spatial relationship.

50:29SPEAKERSo if you think of like windows on your desktop computer

50:34SPEAKERor your laptop computer,

50:35SPEAKERthe way we've thought of spatial windows,

50:37SPEAKERyou might have a windowed element here

50:38SPEAKERand a windowed element on the left

50:39SPEAKERand window element on the right.

50:41SPEAKERWhen you move your cursor between them,

50:43SPEAKERyour cursor stays free in the operating system, right?

50:48SPEAKERYou actually have the space between the windows

50:50SPEAKERthat you kind of navigate through, right?

50:54SPEAKERThat allows you to click things in the background.

50:55SPEAKERThe cursor in VisionOS jumps from window to window,

50:59SPEAKERdepending on where you're looking at.

51:00SPEAKER- That makes a lot of sense to me

51:02SPEAKERgiven how you can place the windows in space, right?

51:05SPEAKERWe haven't talked about this yet,

51:07SPEAKERbut it's not like you're just placing the windows

51:10SPEAKERin a circle, in a sphere, on the inside of a sphere

51:13SPEAKERaround you, right?

51:14SPEAKERYou can actually place them in 3D space

51:16SPEAKERand move around and put them in different places if you want.

51:19SPEAKERI don't know what the usability of that is.

51:21SPEAKERIt seems pretty minor.

51:22SPEAKER- It's a little of both.

51:24SPEAKERSo if you're seated or standing at a fixed location,

51:27SPEAKERthe X, Y orientation of where the windows are

51:32SPEAKERkind of locks into the sphere.

51:35SPEAKERIt doesn't snap in, but it is aligned

51:37SPEAKERto an imaginary sphere in front of you,

51:41SPEAKERlike this curved canvas.

51:44SPEAKERBut you can also then push back.

51:47SPEAKERAnd if you move out of, let's say you arrange five windows

51:51SPEAKERand you tile them as this ultra widescreen window

51:54SPEAKERin front of you, it's in this curved arrangement.

51:57SPEAKERYou can then move Z-depth back

51:59SPEAKERand they're still kind of in this curved arrangement,

52:01SPEAKERgrow them up, size them down, whatever.

52:03SPEAKERBut then you can then walk away from that

52:05SPEAKERand then open new windows and then set them up

52:09SPEAKERand place them in another curved arrangement.

52:11SPEAKERNone of that saves, and none of it snaps to floors or walls

52:16SPEAKERor kind of aligns to flat surfaces

52:19SPEAKERthat you may have in your real space.

52:22SPEAKERSo there are all kinds of things.

52:24SPEAKERThink of it as like having

52:26SPEAKERthis kind of virtual desktop environment

52:29SPEAKERof these windows that you can place,

52:30SPEAKERbut really designed to be optimized

52:33SPEAKERto be arranged for a stationary position

52:36SPEAKERor stationary operating location.

52:38SPEAKER- How does it work when you hook it up to a Mac, Norm?

52:42SPEAKER- We open up to a Mac, so it mirrors your Mac one screen

52:45SPEAKERand you can change the resolution on that.

52:46SPEAKERYou can go up to 5K.

52:47SPEAKERI think it depends on the processing power of their Mac.

52:50SPEAKERLike a MacBook Air that we have at the house here,

52:53SPEAKERit does retina resolution.

52:54SPEAKERSo even though the DPI renders that,

52:58SPEAKERlike it's 2560 by 1440 equivalent,

53:01SPEAKERit's actually pixel doubling.

53:02SPEAKERAnd so it's actually rendering at 5,000,

53:04SPEAKERwhatever pixels by 2880.

53:06SPEAKERAnd so you have the option of rendering up to 5,000,

53:10SPEAKERwhatever it is, by 2880.

53:13SPEAKERSo you get high DPI, but it's only one.

53:17SPEAKER- And you can't like drag windows out of the desktop

53:19SPEAKERor anything like that.

53:20SPEAKERThey're locked in that one window.

53:21SPEAKER- Yeah, but you can,

53:22SPEAKERthat's actually one place where you can use a mouse

53:24SPEAKERbecause you can use a mouse on your MacBook.

53:27SPEAKERAnd if you have a mouse,

53:29SPEAKERthen your mouse actually does operate in that MacBook screen

53:33SPEAKERand can move off into other windows.

53:37SPEAKER- So, but hold on.

53:38SPEAKERSo if you have a,

53:39SPEAKERif you have the mouse and keyboard connected to your Mac,

53:41SPEAKERthen you just use the mouse and keyboard

53:42SPEAKERconnected to your Mac.

53:43SPEAKERIf you have a mouse and keyboard connected

53:44SPEAKERto your Apple Vision Pro,

53:47SPEAKERthen can you use those in that Mac too?

53:49SPEAKEROr do you have to use it?

53:50SPEAKER- No.

53:51SPEAKER- Oh, that's just the Mac.

53:52SPEAKER- Okay.

53:53SPEAKER- What the heck?

53:54SPEAKER- Sorry, let me rephrase this.

53:57SPEAKERYou can go one way,

54:00SPEAKERbut not the other way.

54:01SPEAKER- So you can use?

54:03SPEAKER- Wait, when you have a Mac,

54:05SPEAKERif you're pairing,

54:06SPEAKERif you've mirrored your Mac,

54:08SPEAKERyou can use the keyboard on your Mac

54:10SPEAKERand you can use the trackpad on your Mac.

54:12SPEAKERAnd that will actually let you type in

54:14SPEAKERyour Vision OS windows.

54:16SPEAKER- Oh, in the whole Vision OS window?

54:17SPEAKER- Yes, yes.

54:18SPEAKERYou can type in every Vision OS application

54:21SPEAKERor whatever you call it.

54:22SPEAKER- That's convenient.

54:23SPEAKER- Right, yes.

54:24SPEAKERAnd that's the only way you can bring in mouse input

54:27SPEAKERbecause they're not gonna disable mouse input for your Mac.

54:32SPEAKERIf you are in Vision OS and you pair a keyboard,

54:35SPEAKERthat keyboard still works.

54:38SPEAKERAnd that keyboard will work in your Mac window

54:40SPEAKERand override your Mac keyboard,

54:42SPEAKERbut you cannot bring a mouse from Vision.

54:44SPEAKERYou can't pair a mouse and then use that.

54:47SPEAKER- But I mean,

54:48SPEAKERdoes this mean that you can be sitting on your couch upstairs

54:49SPEAKERand like log into your MacBook down in the basement

54:51SPEAKERand like open a port down there

54:55SPEAKERand have your full Mac desktop going in your couch?

54:59SPEAKER- I think so.

55:00SPEAKER- Assuming it wakes it up, right?

55:02SPEAKER- Yeah.

55:03SPEAKERSo yeah, the answer is yes,

55:05SPEAKERbecause the way I've been pairing it,

55:08SPEAKERyou open a Mac in front of you

55:10SPEAKERand a little connect button pops up on top of the lid.

55:12SPEAKERAnd that's like one of the few instances

55:14SPEAKERwhere it's using computer vision to recognize

55:16SPEAKERthat the thing in front of you is a MacBook,

55:19SPEAKERlike the keyboard is a MacBook.

55:20SPEAKERAnd so it's gonna float the thing up.

55:21SPEAKERIt actually only refreshes at one frame a second.

55:23SPEAKERSo it's not like a real time, like alignment.

55:27SPEAKERYou press connect and it's in the back end.

55:29SPEAKERIt knows you've signed into both devices,

55:30SPEAKERthe same Apple ID, and you're on the same Wi-Fi

55:34SPEAKERand it'll stream.

55:35SPEAKERBut this also works.

55:36SPEAKER- So it doesn't prompt you on the Mac?

55:37SPEAKER- Correct.

55:38SPEAKERAnd you can force connect to a MacBook on your network

55:41SPEAKERor Mac studio or Mac mini

55:42SPEAKERthat may not have a display or a keyboard

55:45SPEAKERjust in going in settings.

55:46SPEAKERAnd so I believe you can remote desktop essentially.

55:50SPEAKER- Oh, that's cool.

55:51SPEAKER- And you can use remote workstations on your local Wi-Fi.

55:56SPEAKER- Okay, so we haven't talked about the thing

55:58SPEAKERwhere you can basically close off

55:59SPEAKERthe real world around you at all yet.

56:00SPEAKERThere's like a knob, like the one on the Apple Watch

56:04SPEAKERthat you can spin that turns off the world

56:06SPEAKERor turns the world on basically.

56:09SPEAKER- Yeah, they call it the digital crown, right?

56:11SPEAKERAnd it's a knob plus a button.

56:13SPEAKERThis is actually the only way,

56:14SPEAKERthe physical way you activate to get the home screen

56:16SPEAKERis by pressing that button on the top right.

56:20SPEAKERI'll give you one anecdote.

56:21SPEAKERI find that annoying 'cause I want a gesture

56:24SPEAKERto allow me to get the home screen.

56:26SPEAKERLike the gaze plus tap interface

56:29SPEAKERis so convenient when it works and so untaxing,

56:34SPEAKERlike I find myself almost frustrated

56:37SPEAKERthat I have to lift my hand up

56:39SPEAKERto press this button to get to the home screen.

56:41SPEAKER- Once you fully atrophy and your bones start to shrink,

56:44SPEAKERyou won't be able to reach it, right?

56:45SPEAKER- We're one step closer to escaping this physical form.

56:49SPEAKERAnd because you can't program gestures

56:51SPEAKERand you can't say like I want two taps with my fingers

56:55SPEAKERor a tap to the middle finger or a tap to the ring finger

56:56SPEAKERas a way to open up the home screen

56:59SPEAKERor you can't customize any of that.

57:00SPEAKER- You can't say Siri, open the home screen?

57:02SPEAKER- You can say Siri, open the home screen.

57:05SPEAKERBut that's a lot of syllables.

57:06SPEAKER- That's fewer muscles in your face

57:08SPEAKERthan it would take to raise your arm.

57:10SPEAKER- Oh, I don't know, man.

57:11SPEAKERThat's a lot of muscles on the list.

57:12SPEAKER- What we found is an accessibility option,

57:14SPEAKERa lot of accessibility options where you can,

57:17SPEAKERthere's like an array of like 12 different sounds

57:21SPEAKERyou can make and tie those sounds to shortcuts.

57:25SPEAKERAnd so I've tied clucking.

57:28SPEAKERSo I use, yep.

57:31SPEAKER- Oh, wait, hang on, are these user definable sounds

57:33SPEAKERor do they tell you what to do?

57:34SPEAKER- No, no, there's a preset list of like generic sharp sounds

57:38SPEAKERlike puh or uh or tuh or shh, exactly.

57:43SPEAKERAnd there's a mode you can practice the sounds

57:45SPEAKERso it can help you learn how to make the best sounds.

57:48SPEAKERIt's for accessibility.

57:49SPEAKER- Sorry, you don't have to train it though.

57:50SPEAKERYou know, it doesn't make you say like,

57:52SPEAKERokay, you need to cluck 10 times

57:53SPEAKERso we can learn what your cluck sounds like.

57:55SPEAKER- That's right.

57:56SPEAKERYou'd have to train, you'd have to, you know,

57:57SPEAKERcluck the way you cluck to hopefully

57:59SPEAKERactivate the green light that says,

58:01SPEAKERokay, your cluck is accurate to our model

58:03SPEAKERof what a cluck sounds like.

58:04SPEAKERBut I've been pairing cluck to home screen.

58:07SPEAKERAnd so I'm on the couch and Danica's like,

58:09SPEAKERwhy the, after you cluck in all day,

58:11SPEAKERI'm just like, I'm activated in the home.

58:13SPEAKERI'm like, I'm just like, every like 10 seconds,

58:15SPEAKERI'm like, and then move my hand.

58:17SPEAKERYou know, it looks ridiculous.

58:19SPEAKERIt sounds ridiculous, but I find it more convenient

58:21SPEAKERthan pressing the button.

58:22SPEAKER- For everyone but you, right?

58:24SPEAKER- Thank you for confirming that it's a tongue cluck

58:26SPEAKERwe're talking about and not a chicken.

58:28SPEAKER- Yes, yes, it's yeah.

58:30SPEAKERAnd there's a click option and a cluck option.

58:33SPEAKERAnd I honestly don't know the difference.

58:34SPEAKERIt only recognizes my clucks.

58:36SPEAKER- I wonder if there's cultural differences

58:37SPEAKERbetween like a glottal click and a glottal cluck, right?

58:40SPEAKERThat's the, that's where we're, anyway.

58:43SPEAKERSo, but when you're in the completely invisible mode,

58:46SPEAKERwhen you've closed off the world around,

58:47SPEAKERyou're sitting on the moon,

58:48SPEAKERyou're sitting on the top of Haleakala in Hawaii,

58:50SPEAKERyou're someplace, you're pooping on the top of Mount Everest

58:55SPEAKERis the joke we always made in the early VR days.

58:59SPEAKERWhen people walk up to you and look at you,

59:02SPEAKERthey just kind of melt into the world

59:04SPEAKERin a really disconcerting way.

59:06SPEAKERLike, I don't really know how to describe that one.

59:10SPEAKER- Yeah.

59:11SPEAKER- Is it doing background removal on them?

59:14SPEAKERIt has to be, right?

59:15SPEAKER- It is.

59:16SPEAKER- How effective is that?

59:18SPEAKER- Too effective actually.

59:20SPEAKERIt speaks to Apple really think of this,

59:22SPEAKERI think primarily as a mixed reality device

59:25SPEAKERmore than a VR device.

59:26SPEAKERThe virtual environments,

59:28SPEAKERwhich are almost akin to like the watch faces on watchOS

59:32SPEAKERin that you can't upload your own.

59:33SPEAKERIt's like, this is the selection that Apple has given you.

59:36SPEAKERAnd this is the selection our partners have made.

59:39SPEAKERYou know, Disney has their own selection.

59:40SPEAKERApple TV has like a theater one.

59:43SPEAKERI don't know what that means going forward

59:44SPEAKERif like every app developer can like develop their own

59:47SPEAKER'cause it's all using like,

59:48SPEAKERI think an ILM based model system.

59:52SPEAKER- It's like 3D models plus a big cube map, yeah.

59:54SPEAKER- Exactly, right?

59:55SPEAKERSo it's like the best version of photogrammetry

59:58SPEAKERthat you can have

59:59SPEAKERif you didn't actually wanna explore the space.

1:00:01SPEAKERIt's, you know, remember on the first vibes,

1:00:04SPEAKERthey, one of the Valve guys went through

1:00:06SPEAKERand did a bunch of photogrammetry of like Iceland

1:00:09SPEAKERand Greenland, but you'd be able to teleport between nodes.

1:00:13SPEAKERThese virtual environments are just

1:00:15SPEAKERfor like the very nearest area around you.

1:00:17SPEAKERSo the moon, you get like rendered rocks

1:00:19SPEAKERand landscape within,

1:00:21SPEAKERI wanna say maybe like a couple meters out from you,

1:00:24SPEAKERmaybe a dozen meters out from you,

1:00:26SPEAKERand then off the edge of a cliff,

1:00:27SPEAKERthen it's all like a cube map with some animation.

1:00:30SPEAKERSo like clouds will move in the background

1:00:32SPEAKERof a mountain scape or there'll be rain coming in,

1:00:35SPEAKERbut they're not made to be environments to walk around in.

1:00:37SPEAKERThey're stationary environments that kind of let you

1:00:40SPEAKERand absorb the ambiance, sound and visual.

1:00:44SPEAKER- They work like the Cerro cube maps that Google did,

1:00:47SPEAKER'cause you can, like you do get perspective shifts

1:00:49SPEAKERwhen you walk around inside that space

1:00:51SPEAKERwith the stuff off in the distance,

1:00:52SPEAKERit's beyond the 3D rendering range.

1:00:54SPEAKERIt's pretty neat, but like normal people look at it

1:00:57SPEAKERand be like, oh yeah, that's fine, whatever.

1:00:59SPEAKER- So my thinking is these environments are more

1:01:02SPEAKERfor like comfort, you know,

1:01:03SPEAKERif you want to be isolated by design to zen out

1:01:07SPEAKERor to work in a more focused space

1:01:08SPEAKERor to watch your media in a more focused environment,

1:01:11SPEAKERthat's the reason I'm bringing them in.

1:01:12SPEAKERThey're not for interaction with those spaces.

1:01:14SPEAKERIt's like, it's fun to watch a movie on Tatooine

1:01:17SPEAKERor on the Ventures Tower or on the top of a mountain

1:01:19SPEAKERor on the moon, like sure, I get that.

1:01:22SPEAKERBut they're really cognizant of the fact

1:01:25SPEAKERthat by enabling these type of fully immersive

1:01:28SPEAKERand virtual environments,

1:01:29SPEAKERyou're locking the viewer off from the world.

1:01:32SPEAKERAnd that's the reason they have the display on the outside

1:01:35SPEAKERas well as this then ability for the system

1:01:37SPEAKERto recognize faces and humans that may be approaching you

1:01:43SPEAKERand on a system-wide level,

1:01:45SPEAKERwhatever, no matter what immersive environment

1:01:47SPEAKERor video you may be watching,

1:01:48SPEAKERit will override and a silhouette of them will fade in

1:01:52SPEAKERlike a ghostly apparition and be in your field of view

1:01:55SPEAKERas long as you look at them.

1:01:57SPEAKER- Ghostly apparition is it, right?

1:01:58SPEAKERLike when you did it to me,

1:02:00SPEAKERall of a sudden I just saw like Norm's eyes and glasses

1:02:03SPEAKERcoming up in my, like you just literally melted in

1:02:06SPEAKERfrom the background, just your head.

1:02:07SPEAKERAnd then your body came in when I looked at you

1:02:10SPEAKERand we could talk for a minute.

1:02:11SPEAKERIt was like I was seeing you from beyond the grave, Norm.

1:02:14SPEAKERIt was very disturbing.

1:02:15SPEAKER- This is starting to sound like that "Star Trek" villain,

1:02:18SPEAKERthe encounter that was just a floating pair of eyes

1:02:20SPEAKERon a mouth in space, a little bit like that.

1:02:24SPEAKERAnd I say it works too well

1:02:28SPEAKERbecause you can't adjust for how sensitive it is.

1:02:31SPEAKERYou can turn it off completely.

1:02:32SPEAKERThere's a toggle that you can have it

1:02:34SPEAKERjust not show people fade in,

1:02:36SPEAKERbut you can't say I only want people to fade in

1:02:38SPEAKERif they're like five feet from me.

1:02:40SPEAKERAnd it will recognize people who are across the room

1:02:44SPEAKERwho may be just like standing still and looking at you.

1:02:46SPEAKERThey will fade in.

1:02:49SPEAKER- I think it also, like you showed me in a video

1:02:52SPEAKERon a video call of it picking up a 2D,

1:02:54SPEAKERlike it seems like if you're out of the 3D range,

1:02:56SPEAKERit'll definitely just pick up on 2D faces

1:02:58SPEAKERlike an iPhone would when it's doing like face recognition

1:03:00SPEAKERfor focus purposes and stuff like that.

1:03:02SPEAKER- So using the living room and we have like a TV running

1:03:05SPEAKERand the angle's watching a TV show,

1:03:08SPEAKERit would pick up faces on the TV and fade those faces in,

1:03:12SPEAKEReven though those are flat faces

1:03:15SPEAKERand scaled probably incorrectly, right?

1:03:18SPEAKER- Does it work for pets too?

1:03:19SPEAKERDoes Ripley get picked up?

1:03:20SPEAKER- No.

1:03:21SPEAKER- So you can still kick the dog

1:03:22SPEAKERwhen you have the headset on?

1:03:23SPEAKERThat's not good. - Accidentally, yeah.

1:03:25SPEAKERBut to go to the front facing or the world facing display,

1:03:29SPEAKERthat eyesight display,

1:03:31SPEAKERthose eyes aren't there the whole time.

1:03:34SPEAKERThose eyes only fade in and show to people in the real world

1:03:40SPEAKERwhen the system is fading them into you.

1:03:42SPEAKERIt's a reciprocal action.

1:03:45SPEAKER- Oh, so if the people can see the eyes,

1:03:47SPEAKERthen you can theoretically see the people,

1:03:49SPEAKERbut if the eyes aren't there,

1:03:50SPEAKERthen you're in your own little world.

1:03:52SPEAKER- Exactly, exactly.

1:03:54SPEAKERIt's like an eye contact acknowledgement.

1:03:58SPEAKER- So I didn't actually spend any time

1:04:00SPEAKERreally looking at you with the headset on,

1:04:02SPEAKERbut the eyes, the moments that you had it on,

1:04:05SPEAKERthe eyes were disturbing at best.

1:04:07SPEAKERThe eyes are not.

1:04:08SPEAKERThat eye effect is,

1:04:10SPEAKERit seems like a really expensive thing

1:04:12SPEAKERto put on the headset for pretty limited use.

1:04:14SPEAKERBut maybe if you're in a cube farm

1:04:17SPEAKERand this is just a way to pack people more densely

1:04:19SPEAKERinto the cubes than having the eyes

1:04:22SPEAKERso you can see when people are looking at you as good.

1:04:25SPEAKERI don't know.

1:04:26SPEAKER- I've had mixed experiences with it

1:04:28SPEAKERbecause almost everyone who doesn't know what it is

1:04:32SPEAKERor maybe unfamiliar with VR headsets,

1:04:34SPEAKERwhen they've looked at it and the eyes popped in,

1:04:36SPEAKERtheir first assumption is that those are real eyes,

1:04:38SPEAKERlike it was an optical pass-through.

1:04:41SPEAKERAnd the longer you scrutinize it,

1:04:43SPEAKERI mean, you can clearly tell that it's rendered video,

1:04:46SPEAKERbut the lenticular display they're using,

1:04:48SPEAKERa lenticular layer of film they're using,

1:04:50SPEAKERand the multi-view display,

1:04:52SPEAKERso it does do stereo pair,

1:04:54SPEAKERso you get a little bit of depth

1:04:57SPEAKERand they position the eyes,

1:04:58SPEAKERthey position the render so it looks receded.

1:05:01SPEAKERIt's like the inverse of where the camera position is.

1:05:04SPEAKERThe problem with the camera location,

1:05:06SPEAKERthe display isn't right on the surface of the headset.

1:05:11SPEAKERIt makes the eyes look more receded in.

1:05:14SPEAKERThere's a little bit of depth there.

1:05:16SPEAKERSo they've done the best they could

1:05:18SPEAKERto make it look convincing.

1:05:20SPEAKERAnd for the normies out there,

1:05:25SPEAKERit gives a sense of connection, it's weird, but yeah.

1:05:28SPEAKER- Yeah, this still feels like the first thing

1:05:30SPEAKERthey're gonna drop when they wanna make

1:05:31SPEAKERa thousand dollar version of this, right?

1:05:33SPEAKERLike this is an easy feature to kill.

1:05:37SPEAKER- I would rather they kill this feature

1:05:38SPEAKERthan release a version with lower resolution display.

1:05:41SPEAKER- Yeah.

1:05:43SPEAKERLet's see, I didn't notice any jitter at all for Windows.

1:05:46SPEAKERLike once you play something in the world,

1:05:48SPEAKERit's really static in relation to your head,

1:05:49SPEAKERwhich I thought was really nice.

1:05:51SPEAKER- No drift over time,

1:05:52SPEAKERthe windows are like locked solid in place.

1:05:55SPEAKERTheir slam implementation is incredible.

1:05:58SPEAKER- It is, every other headset I've used

1:06:01SPEAKERwhen the slam de-syncs,

1:06:03SPEAKERthen you get like the windows move with the de-sync

1:06:08SPEAKERand that didn't, like either this wasn't de-syncing at all,

1:06:11SPEAKERor they figured out some software mojo

1:06:16SPEAKERto make it to minimize the impact of that.

1:06:18SPEAKER- Yeah, I think that the best example of this,

1:06:20SPEAKERif people wanna see it in action is like the videos

1:06:22SPEAKERthat immediately emerged on Twitter on like a launch day

1:06:24SPEAKERof people cooking and like placing timers

1:06:26SPEAKERover the different pots for things they were cooking

1:06:28SPEAKERand then going around the kitchen and coming back to them

1:06:30SPEAKERand like they are quite stable.

1:06:33SPEAKER- Or windows left in the bathroom, that kind of thing.

1:06:36SPEAKER- Yeah.

1:06:37SPEAKER- The places, I've seen two places where it's been tricked

1:06:40SPEAKERand one is a user who had like a projector projecting,

1:06:45SPEAKERlike a real projector in his house projecting like a video.

1:06:48SPEAKERIt was, I think it was an Apple TV screensaver

1:06:50SPEAKERand the slow movement of the screensaver

1:06:54SPEAKERtricked the headset into thinking it was the world moving

1:06:57SPEAKERand so he got drift that was locked to the movement of the--

1:07:00SPEAKER- Oh, that's amazing.

1:07:01SPEAKER- The screensaver.

1:07:03SPEAKERThe other thing--

1:07:04SPEAKER- So they're not just using the 3D data from the SLAM,

1:07:06SPEAKERthey're also using visual vision and image processing.

1:07:08SPEAKER- That's right, they're also using CV.

1:07:10SPEAKERAnd this other place was someone with a standing desk

1:07:13SPEAKERand they activated the standing desk up and down

1:07:16SPEAKERand the plane, and that might be geometry,

1:07:18SPEAKERthe plane of the standing desk moving up and down

1:07:20SPEAKERshifted their windows 'cause they thought that was a floor.

1:07:24SPEAKER- That seems like a feature to me.

1:07:25SPEAKER(laughing)

1:07:27SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean maybe, right?

1:07:28SPEAKER- Seems like working as intended, I don't know.

1:07:31SPEAKER- Norm, I think we could talk for another hour or two easily

1:07:33SPEAKERbut we have a bunch of stuff we wanna get to

1:07:35SPEAKERso let's do the speed round here.

1:07:37SPEAKER- Yes.

1:07:38SPEAKER- Does it have a chaperone equivalent?

1:07:40SPEAKER- No, so you don't draw any guardian,

1:07:42SPEAKERthey want this in a very Apple way.

1:07:45SPEAKERThey have so much confidence in their SLAM

1:07:47SPEAKERthat they don't, and also it's not really designed

1:07:50SPEAKERfor you to be in fully immersed games

1:07:53SPEAKERor traversal environments where you're walking around.

1:07:57SPEAKERThey don't surface any of the guardian

1:07:59SPEAKERor borders or anything.

1:08:00SPEAKERAll they do is give you slow fade-ins

1:08:02SPEAKERwhen you're getting too close to objects.

1:08:04SPEAKER- But at the same time, it didn't,

1:08:07SPEAKERwhen I stood, when you make it fully locked in

1:08:11SPEAKERon the moon or whatever, I can't remember what that's called,

1:08:14SPEAKERbut it didn't, if you stood up and started walking around,

1:08:16SPEAKERit didn't kick you out of that.

1:08:17SPEAKERIt didn't say, hey, you're not supposed to be walking around

1:08:19SPEAKERwhile you have this on.

1:08:20SPEAKERBut if you, when I did get close to like the ottoman

1:08:22SPEAKERor something, it would show me the ottoman

1:08:25SPEAKERwith the kind of white shimmery edges

1:08:26SPEAKERlike it does when a person walks in,

1:08:27SPEAKERwhich I thought was pretty cool.

1:08:30SPEAKERMy eyes got crazy dry inside the headset

1:08:32SPEAKERover the period of an hour.

1:08:35SPEAKERI was wearing contacts.

1:08:36SPEAKERI didn't have glass inserts obviously, but yeah.

1:08:39SPEAKER- Yeah, eye strain is gonna be a thing.

1:08:42SPEAKERI mean, you're working your eyes a lot just through this gaze

1:08:45SPEAKERlike I had to take breaks just 'cause I was,

1:08:48SPEAKERjust to either recalibrate, literally actually just rest

1:08:51SPEAKERand then recalibrate the eye tracking,

1:08:53SPEAKERbut you're being way more purposeful with where you look.

1:08:58SPEAKERAnd the fact that they have fans,

1:09:00SPEAKERthere's no air that's blowing through,

1:09:01SPEAKERbut there is a fan.

1:09:03SPEAKER- There's air circulating though, right?

1:09:04SPEAKER- There's a little air circulating.

1:09:08SPEAKERYou do get a little bit dry.

1:09:10SPEAKER- I'm unclear if it was because I wasn't blinking enough

1:09:12SPEAKERbecause I was so highly engaged

1:09:13SPEAKERor if it was air moving through,

1:09:15SPEAKERbut the first thing I noticed when I took the headset off

1:09:18SPEAKERwas, oh, wow, my eyes are crazy dry.

1:09:22SPEAKERWhat's the app situation?

1:09:24SPEAKERIt seemed like all the apps that you showed me

1:09:25SPEAKERwith the exception of one or two kind of gamey things

1:09:28SPEAKERwere mostly like just 2D windows that you place in the world.

1:09:31SPEAKERThere wasn't a lot of 3D, 3D, 3D stuff.

1:09:33SPEAKER- Yeah, very few 3D, 3D things.

1:09:35SPEAKERThey said they launched with 600 apps.

1:09:36SPEAKERI feel like maybe a dozen or two dozen of those

1:09:39SPEAKERare actually good.

1:09:41SPEAKERA lot of generic stuff, it feels so much

1:09:44SPEAKERlike the earliest of iOS app store days

1:09:47SPEAKERwhere you have a lot of chunk apps,

1:09:48SPEAKERa lot of basic apps that might be features later,

1:09:51SPEAKERbut you don't have a complete collection

1:09:56SPEAKERof your essential killer apps, your media apps.

1:09:58SPEAKERThere's no Netflix, no Spotify, no YouTube,

1:10:01SPEAKERbut you can do the most basic stuff,

1:10:04SPEAKERbut the most powerful thing is gonna be the web browser.

1:10:06SPEAKER- Our friend Jeremy Williams said it felt like

1:10:09SPEAKERthe first days of,

1:10:10SPEAKERlike it felt like you were exploring a new platform

1:10:12SPEAKERand everybody was figuring out what to use it for,

1:10:14SPEAKERwhich I think feels, felt right.

1:10:18SPEAKER- Yep.

1:10:18SPEAKER- Is it a standalone app store, I assume?

1:10:20SPEAKERI assume they're not just throwing Vision Pro apps

1:10:22SPEAKERinto the giant iOS one.

1:10:23SPEAKERLike is it, I assume like the search is limited

1:10:26SPEAKERto just what runs on this.

1:10:28SPEAKER- There's a selector you search

1:10:31SPEAKERand it will service only Vision apps,

1:10:33SPEAKERbut then if you tab over,

1:10:34SPEAKERthen it will show you the iPad compatible ones

1:10:36SPEAKERwith the same search string.

1:10:38SPEAKER- And the iPad compatible ones are basically just showing you

1:10:40SPEAKERthe iPad aspect ratios in a window.

1:10:43SPEAKER- Which you can rotate.

1:10:44SPEAKERYou can do landscape, but you can't tilt them.

1:10:46SPEAKERYou can't like, I want, and you can resize them.

1:10:48SPEAKERYou can resize them all basically to the size of an iPad.

1:10:51SPEAKERBut what I want is like be able to use that direct touch,

1:10:54SPEAKERmouth, hand tracking interface to hold them

1:10:57SPEAKERand rotate them and pivot them.

1:11:00SPEAKERBut all you can do is kind of grow these planes

1:11:02SPEAKERand you can do multi-touch on them too.

1:11:03SPEAKER- Yeah, it seemed like the placement was always gonna be

1:11:06SPEAKERon a plane that was perpendicular to the radius

1:11:09SPEAKERthat starts of a sphere that starts at your eyeball.

1:11:13SPEAKER- Right, right, that sphere of placement.

1:11:15SPEAKER- Yeah.

1:11:17SPEAKERAre there any, there's no games really, right?

1:11:19SPEAKERThere's no Beat Saber or Pistol Whip

1:11:20SPEAKERor anything like that at this point.

1:11:22SPEAKER- And worse than that, the games they have,

1:11:24SPEAKERagain, feel very much like an app ecosystem of games

1:11:26SPEAKERwhere it's like, these are the games that are bundled

1:11:28SPEAKERwith your operating system.

1:11:29SPEAKERThere's a Cut the Rope and Jetpack Joyride,

1:11:31SPEAKERwhich is just like rendered 3D versions

1:11:34SPEAKERof looking at a screen.

1:11:35SPEAKERThere's, you know, there's your chess game,

1:11:37SPEAKERbut most of these actually are Apple Arcade games.

1:11:41SPEAKERI don't know if there's even a way to play these

1:11:42SPEAKERwithout buying into the Apple Arcade subscription.

1:11:46SPEAKER- I have to assume if you're in a market

1:11:49SPEAKERfor a $3,500 headset, the $5 a month subscription

1:11:52SPEAKERprobably isn't gonna stop you from--

1:11:54SPEAKER- I have never been more compelled to sign up for Apple One

1:11:57SPEAKERthan after this headset for exactly that.

1:11:59SPEAKERThere's like this distortion field where like,

1:12:01SPEAKERwell, I spent $3,500 on a headset, a 4,000.

1:12:04SPEAKERWhat is this extra $35 a month

1:12:06SPEAKERthat will give me Apple Music

1:12:08SPEAKER'cause I don't have Spotify on this,

1:12:10SPEAKERplus Apple TV+, and Apple News, and Apple Arcade?

1:12:13SPEAKERI guess that's worth it.

1:12:15SPEAKER- I was gonna say that about the exorbitant pricing

1:12:17SPEAKERof the accessories also, you know,

1:12:18SPEAKERit's like $200 for a case is insane,

1:12:21SPEAKERbut as a percentage of the cost of this headset, like hey.

1:12:25SPEAKER- It's an investment in the future, Brad.

1:12:27SPEAKER- The flip side of that is if you decide

1:12:29SPEAKERnot to buy the headset, which would be my recommendation

1:12:31SPEAKERfor most normal people, right?

1:12:33SPEAKERThat money you would have mentally allocated

1:12:36SPEAKERto buy a headset, you can buy a fuckton of things.

1:12:39SPEAKERIt's like, well, I didn't buy the Apple headset.

1:12:41SPEAKERMaybe I can buy a new laptop and a new phone.

1:12:44SPEAKER- Fully loaded Mac Studio or whatever, you know?

1:12:46SPEAKER- The thing I like to do when I'm tempted

1:12:49SPEAKERby some new Apple product that I've been burned on

1:12:50SPEAKERin the past is I look at what would have happened

1:12:53SPEAKERif I spent that money on Apple stock at the time.

1:12:56SPEAKER(laughing)

1:12:57SPEAKERAnd so I'll go out and buy $3,500 worth of Apple stock

1:13:02SPEAKERand let you know how it goes in a year.

1:13:04SPEAKERHow is it for watching movies, Norm?

1:13:06SPEAKER- This is the other.

1:13:07SPEAKER- Incredible.

1:13:08SPEAKERI mean, aside from the fact that you're watching it alone

1:13:10SPEAKERand share play for movies is kind of limited right now.

1:13:14SPEAKER- Can you like share play it to your TV

1:13:16SPEAKERso that you can be sitting in the same room

1:13:17SPEAKERas your loved ones and have the same experience as them,

1:13:20SPEAKERbut they get the shit version

1:13:21SPEAKERand you get the good version?

1:13:24SPEAKER- No.

1:13:26SPEAKERActually, that's the real question.

1:13:26SPEAKERI had something I have to test.

1:13:28SPEAKERI've only done headset to headset where you can share play

1:13:30SPEAKERand have them load up the same movie application.

1:13:33SPEAKER- Yeah, it seems like you guys should be all able

1:13:35SPEAKERto sit in the same room

1:13:36SPEAKERand you just have the 80 foot iMac screen

1:13:37SPEAKERand they have the 65 inch chud TV.

1:13:40SPEAKER- 77.

1:13:41SPEAKER- I'm sorry, apologies.

1:13:43SPEAKER- But as a solo viewing experience,

1:13:47SPEAKERit's the high, I mean,

1:13:49SPEAKERit surpasses any media viewing experience on VR.

1:13:53SPEAKERAnd unless you have, even like,

1:13:56SPEAKERunless you have like a $100,000 projector,

1:13:59SPEAKERit's gonna be like, it feel brighter than that.

1:14:01SPEAKERIt's gonna be bigger than any TV,

1:14:04SPEAKEROLED TV that you have in your house.

1:14:06SPEAKERAnd it supports HDR and Dolby Vision.

1:14:10SPEAKERAnd aside from not having that in-person shared experience

1:14:14SPEAKERof watching something, the only downside,

1:14:17SPEAKERthat's like the big downside.

1:14:20SPEAKERAnd maybe some of the search streaming service providers

1:14:22SPEAKERnot having the best bit rates,

1:14:23SPEAKERlike opening up YouTube TV or YouTube and Safari browser,

1:14:28SPEAKERyou're only gonna cap by what the encodes are.

1:14:32SPEAKERAnd Disney as their best partner has done the best encodes

1:14:36SPEAKERof their content, like their 3D movie content.

1:14:39SPEAKER- Yeah, I fired up "Endgame" and was kind of blown away by it.

1:14:42SPEAKERThe other thing that's interesting is,

1:14:44SPEAKERlike there's a fair number of movies,

1:14:46SPEAKERmostly made by Christopher Nolan,

1:14:48SPEAKERthat have iMacs for some sequences

1:14:50SPEAKERand traditional film for other sequences

1:14:52SPEAKERand the aspect ratios change when you're in the theater,

1:14:55SPEAKERkind of without you noticing, can this handle that?

1:14:58SPEAKERIs this, 'cause that's a hard thing to do on a normal TV.

1:15:01SPEAKER- So it's a really good point.

1:15:03SPEAKERLike "Mission Impossible Fallout" is a great example

1:15:05SPEAKERwhere there's some scenes that have full iMacs aspect ratio,

1:15:09SPEAKERbut just like you would buy the 4K Blu-ray,

1:15:12SPEAKERit's basically letterbox until it expands

1:15:15SPEAKERto that aspect ratio, where on a big TV,

1:15:19SPEAKERyou'd be like, "Wow, I'm wasting a bunch of space.

1:15:21SPEAKER"I want the entire thing to be un-letterbox.

1:15:25SPEAKER"And I don't want pan and scan here,"

1:15:26SPEAKERbecause you can virtually grow the window

1:15:28SPEAKERto any size you want.

1:15:30SPEAKEREven though the black bars are there,

1:15:31SPEAKERyou care less because you still get a big cinema experience.

1:15:36SPEAKERBut there's an iMacs app, and iMacs is the best media demo.

1:15:40SPEAKERI mean, it's the four by three aspect ratio.

1:15:43SPEAKERYou're sitting within three presets for seats,

1:15:47SPEAKERbut it is filling your entire field of view,

1:15:49SPEAKERtall, high bit rate iMacs quality documentaries.

1:15:53SPEAKER- I was, like I loaded that up and I was blown away.

1:15:57SPEAKERYou had me watch them in a specific order.

1:15:58SPEAKERI think I watched "Avatar" first, which is iMacs

1:16:01SPEAKERin Disney app, but he does weird frame rates with that

1:16:05SPEAKERbased on what's happening in the movie.

1:16:07SPEAKERAnd that felt odd to me.

1:16:09SPEAKERActually, the frame rates bouncing around

1:16:10SPEAKERfelt really weird.

1:16:13SPEAKERThe Disney stuff was great,

1:16:16SPEAKERand then the iMacs thing blew the Disney.

1:16:18SPEAKERIt felt like I was in space working on the outside

1:16:20SPEAKERof the space station when I loaded up the iMacs app

1:16:23SPEAKERand jumped into that documentary, it was incredible.

1:16:28SPEAKER- I have to ask, I have mostly heard about this

1:16:31SPEAKERin the context of no VR porn on this thing,

1:16:35SPEAKERbut people seem mad there is no 3D video player,

1:16:37SPEAKERlike a side-by-side video player where you can

1:16:39SPEAKERjust like load your own files.

1:16:40SPEAKERCan we just assume that's just an attempt

1:16:42SPEAKERto push you to iTunes and Apple TV+ or?

1:16:46SPEAKER- You are working with day old information, my friend.

1:16:49SPEAKER- Oh, has someone already addressed this need?

1:16:52SPEAKER- Players are available.

1:16:54SPEAKERThe Vision Pro subreddit has celebrated

1:16:57SPEAKERthe release of Moon Player, which allows you to,

1:17:00SPEAKERagain, there's no real file transfer

1:17:02SPEAKER'cause you're not plugging this into a computer.

1:17:03SPEAKERIt's everything either through AirDrop

1:17:06SPEAKERor the kind of limited file browser.

1:17:08SPEAKERI think you can connect to--

1:17:09SPEAKER- There's a files app, right?

1:17:10SPEAKERSo you can hook that up to all your cloud services.

1:17:12SPEAKER- Yeah, or network share, whatever.

1:17:14SPEAKER- Network share, you can sign into a network share.

1:17:17SPEAKER- Okay, I guess the main thing I was,

1:17:18SPEAKERI just wanted to make sure there's like not some technical

1:17:20SPEAKERor insurmountable reason that they couldn't do that.

1:17:23SPEAKERThey just didn't ship one.

1:17:24SPEAKER- Correct, they didn't ship one natively,

1:17:26SPEAKERand web browsers, I believe there are toggles

1:17:28SPEAKERthat you can toggle to allow for WebXR,

1:17:30SPEAKERwhich is the way you can run kind of virtual reality

1:17:32SPEAKERapplications through a web browser,

1:17:34SPEAKERbut those are manual advanced setting toggles.

1:17:37SPEAKER- Yeah, I was really surprised that they've done,

1:17:40SPEAKERsomebody along the way did parallax work

1:17:42SPEAKERthat I've never seen anybody do

1:17:43SPEAKERin a headset video player before,

1:17:46SPEAKERso that when you, like typically at a 3D movie,

1:17:48SPEAKERwhen you tilt your head, you're getting left eye, right eye,

1:17:51SPEAKERand when you tilt your head,

1:17:52SPEAKERthen your brain gets the wrong signals

1:17:53SPEAKER'cause your eyes are in the wrong place

1:17:55SPEAKERto get the separation at that point,

1:17:56SPEAKERand they're doing something where they blend

1:17:58SPEAKERthe two perspectives or something

1:18:00SPEAKERso that it doesn't feel weird

1:18:01SPEAKERwhen you do that in this headset,

1:18:02SPEAKERwhich I've literally never seen anyone do before.

1:18:05SPEAKERSo I guess, good job, Apple.

1:18:09SPEAKERAre there any video apps that don't work?

1:18:10SPEAKERLike is Max on, like Max, all your small niche channels,

1:18:15SPEAKERcan you get Paramount,

1:18:16SPEAKERor are there people locking out on the Vision Pro?

1:18:20SPEAKER- I think the only opt-outs,

1:18:21SPEAKERthe big opt-outs are Spotify, Netflix.

1:18:25SPEAKERThere's iPad equivalents for like Amazon Prime,

1:18:27SPEAKERnative for Max, native for Disney.

1:18:31SPEAKERWeb browser works for, in most cases, you just can't,

1:18:35SPEAKERyou can't save web applets.

1:18:36SPEAKERIt's actually funny because in the Quest 3,

1:18:39SPEAKERI really love, not when I'm not in a full VR game,

1:18:43SPEAKERI love being able to open

1:18:44SPEAKERwhat's called a progressive web apps,

1:18:46SPEAKERwhich are just web windows

1:18:47SPEAKERthat you can make shortcuts to,

1:18:50SPEAKERbut you can't bookmark, create bookmarks,

1:18:52SPEAKERprogressive web app bookmarks in Vision OS

1:18:54SPEAKERto have them in your homepage.

1:18:56SPEAKERYou have to basically open Safari,

1:18:58SPEAKERgo to your bookmarks bar, click a link that opens Netflix,

1:19:02SPEAKERand then place it there.

1:19:04SPEAKER- How does this compare?

1:19:05SPEAKERHow does this compare to the kind of,

1:19:08SPEAKERthey look like janky AR glasses

1:19:11SPEAKERthat you see advertised on Twitter or Instagram or whatever,

1:19:14SPEAKERthat are like, "Hey, watch an 80 inch screen

1:19:16SPEAKERon your plane ride."