00:00SPEAKERSo I'm looking at the cover story that I did
00:02SPEAKERfor the April 2000 issue of Maximum PC
00:05SPEAKERwhen I was a freelancer.
00:06SPEAKER- I'm impressed you were able to find these.
00:08SPEAKER- It's there on Bookstalk.
00:09SPEAKERWhen I was editor-in-chief of the magazine,
00:10SPEAKERthey let me do whatever I wanted,
00:11SPEAKERso I uploaded them to Bookstalk Google.
00:13SPEAKER- No kidding.
00:14SPEAKER- And I also just posted PDFs on the website,
00:15SPEAKERso people could just download them.
00:16SPEAKER- Wait, they're all there because of you?
00:17SPEAKER- Yes.
00:18SPEAKER- Wow.
00:18SPEAKER- Hey, I was foresightful.
00:19SPEAKER(laughing)
00:20SPEAKERI knew 20 years from now I would need a copy of this magazine.
00:24SPEAKER- One day you would want to be able to remind yourself
00:26SPEAKERthat you didn't give a score to Windows 2000?
00:29SPEAKERIs that what I understand?
00:30SPEAKER- Before we get to that.
00:31SPEAKER- How's that possible?
00:32SPEAKER- Before we get to that, you gotta look at the cover
00:35SPEAKERof this April 2000 issue of Maximum PC.
00:39SPEAKER- Is this really, well, you can Google it.
00:41SPEAKERJust Google the cover of Maximum PC April 2000.
00:44SPEAKER- Google Books and search for April 2000 Maximum PC.
00:46SPEAKER- Just this big, severe font, Windows 2000 on trial.
00:50SPEAKER- That's impact, sir.
00:51SPEAKER- Is that impact?
00:52SPEAKER- I'm pretty sure it's impact.
00:53SPEAKER- And there's a big illustration of a judge with a gavel
00:55SPEAKERwho's about to smash a Windows 2000 box.
00:57SPEAKER- He's like a British judge, too.
00:58SPEAKERHe has like a wig.
01:01SPEAKER- Windows 2000 on trial.
01:03SPEAKER- It's like a six page cover story.
01:05SPEAKER- Wow.
01:08SPEAKERThen you wrote that cover story?
01:09SPEAKER- I wrote that cover.
01:10SPEAKERIt was the second thing I wrote for the magazine.
01:11SPEAKERThe first thing was a MP3 software.
01:14SPEAKERAnd we talk about all the different stuff that they added,
01:16SPEAKERyada, yada, yada.
01:17SPEAKERI'd been running the beta for a while,
01:19SPEAKERwhich I probably got through actually Microsoft when I,
01:22SPEAKERI know I said I probably stole it,
01:24SPEAKERbut I probably got it through Microsoft's thing.
01:26SPEAKERWe didn't put a verdict on it 'cause it wasn't a review.
01:29SPEAKERIt was a cover story.
01:30SPEAKER- Okay, okay.
01:31SPEAKERSo the review presumably came later?
01:33SPEAKER- Yeah, the gist is if you want,
01:34SPEAKERif you're running Windows NT4 and you're running,
01:36SPEAKERand you want DirectX 7 USB and plug and play.
01:38SPEAKER- Wow, they wrote DirectX 7 by then?
01:40SPEAKER- Yeah. - Huh.
01:41SPEAKER- Windows 2000 Pro is for you.
01:44SPEAKERIt's a simple upgrade.
01:46SPEAKERSo you could upgrade from 90X to 2000.
01:48SPEAKERYou couldn't do that with NT4.
01:49SPEAKERYou had to start from scratch with NT4.
01:53SPEAKERAnd it was a little bit slower than NT4,
01:56SPEAKERbut you were better off on almost everything.
01:59SPEAKER- All that stuff.
02:00SPEAKER- You had to check the hardware compatibility list,
02:02SPEAKERwhich was very small.
02:04SPEAKERAnd if you're primarily a gamer,
02:05SPEAKERwe told people to stick with the Windows 98
02:07SPEAKER'cause the frame rates were better for DirectX stuff.
02:09SPEAKER'Cause the DirectX drivers were better.
02:11SPEAKER- OpenGL was pretty much even.
02:13SPEAKERI guess I was still mostly doing OpenGL stuff at that time.
02:17SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause like Quake 3
02:18SPEAKERwould have been still the big game at that point.
02:20SPEAKER- Yeah, so as a data point,
02:23SPEAKERQuake 3 running at 640 by 480, 3D accelerated, presumably.
02:28SPEAKERYeah, it was all 3D accelerated.
02:30SPEAKERYou were looking at like 61 frames a second
02:34SPEAKERon a Windows 2000 machine
02:37SPEAKERor 76 frames a second on a Windows 98 machine.
02:40SPEAKERSo it was like a 10%, 15%.
02:41SPEAKER- That's a big gap. - Yeah.
02:43SPEAKER- But, eh, bleeding edge.
02:45SPEAKERThat's where I like to live.
02:46SPEAKER(upbeat music)
02:53SPEAKER(upbeat music continues)
03:16SPEAKER- Welcome to another episode
03:17SPEAKERof Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.
03:18SPEAKERI'm Will. - Hi, I'm Brad.
03:20SPEAKER- Hey, bleeding edge.
03:21SPEAKERThat's where we live, Windows time.
03:22SPEAKER- Yeah, let's, okay, so.
03:24SPEAKER- Nothing more exciting and rebellious than Windows,
03:28SPEAKERI like to say.
03:28SPEAKER- This seemed like a pretty good idea
03:30SPEAKERwhen we suggested it the other night at 11 o'clock,
03:32SPEAKERbut so far we're ranking Windows.
03:35SPEAKERIf you missed last week, spoilers, I guess.
03:37SPEAKER- Thank you for joining us for our ranking,
03:39SPEAKERour Windows lists.
03:40SPEAKER- Creating an ordered list of Windowses.
03:42SPEAKER- Already in progress. - Yes.
03:44SPEAKERSo far, we've ranked up to Windows ME,
03:48SPEAKERthe sixth major release of Windows, let's say.
03:51SPEAKERIn the number six slot, Windows ME, Garbo.
03:54SPEAKER- Yes.
03:55SPEAKER- In the number five slot, mostly ineffective Windows 3.1.
03:59SPEAKERIn the number four slot, Windows 95.
04:01SPEAKERPretty good, but not as good as we remember.
04:04SPEAKERNumber three. - An important milestone.
04:05SPEAKER- Yeah, it had a TCP/IP stack.
04:08SPEAKERThat was a big deal. - Yes.
04:09SPEAKER- In the number three slot, Windows NT4.
04:13SPEAKERBringing up the mom's spaghetti number two slot, Windows 98.
04:18SPEAKERAnd number one, Windows 2000.
04:21SPEAKER- Turn of the century.
04:22SPEAKER- Turn of the century. - Yeah.
04:23SPEAKERExciting time.
04:24SPEAKER- So, okay, we're into a milestone moment.
04:26SPEAKERThis is where, I think so far,
04:28SPEAKERwe haven't been very controversial.
04:30SPEAKER- Okay. - Windows 98, pretty good.
04:32SPEAKER- Yeah, to be clear, we're not gonna massage this list.
04:36SPEAKERWe're not gonna go out of our way
04:37SPEAKERto be iconoclastic or anything.
04:39SPEAKER- No, when we get to the end,
04:40SPEAKERwe're gonna talk through the whole thing
04:41SPEAKERand reorganize the whole thing.
04:42SPEAKER- But I do hope that this thing
04:44SPEAKERdoesn't just basically turn out
04:46SPEAKERto be a chronological list of Windows.
04:48SPEAKER- Well, we fixed that, 'cause Windows ME,
04:49SPEAKERthe most recent one, is at the bottom of the list now.
04:52SPEAKEROur bases are covered.
04:53SPEAKER- Let the windows fall where they may.
04:54SPEAKER- Yes. - I'm sorry, go ahead.
04:56SPEAKER- No. - Controversial.
04:57SPEAKER- Windows XP. - Yes.
04:58SPEAKER- Came out in 2001.
05:00SPEAKER- Did it wait that fast?
05:02SPEAKER- It was fast. - After 2000?
05:03SPEAKER- They were hammering out Windows left and right.
05:04SPEAKER- Dude, really?
05:06SPEAKER- Now you say that, I'm suddenly worried.
05:08SPEAKER- In my mind, it was like 2003-ish.
05:11SPEAKER- Maybe in 2002. - Or something.
05:13SPEAKER- October 25th, 2001.
05:15SPEAKER- Dude, no kidding.
05:16SPEAKER- It's like a steel trap up there.
05:18SPEAKER- A year and a half then after 2000.
05:20SPEAKER- Yeah, but like a year after Windows ME.
05:22SPEAKER- God, they were just banging 'em out back then.
05:24SPEAKER- Well, I mean, it was a simpler time.
05:26SPEAKER- And like you said last episode,
05:27SPEAKERthat was like a big money maker
05:28SPEAKERfor various companies, right?
05:30SPEAKER- Well, and, but they wanted to push everything
05:33SPEAKERonto Windows XP, 'cause as the people
05:35SPEAKERwere getting more internet connected.
05:36SPEAKERRemember, this is a time when people would get
05:38SPEAKERcable modems, DSL modems, and they'd just
05:40SPEAKERplug their computer straight into the internet.
05:42SPEAKER- Yes. - Like mad people.
05:43SPEAKER- Got you right. - It was before routers.
05:44SPEAKER- That's right. - Before firewalls.
05:46SPEAKER- That's right, you would plug the ethernet
05:47SPEAKERstraight from the cable modem into the computer.
05:50SPEAKER- Here's my un-updated, not automatically updating
05:52SPEAKERWindows 2000 machine. - Oh God, that's horrifying.
05:54SPEAKER- Plugged straight into the raw dog internet.
05:56SPEAKER- Yeah. - Yeah, it was a bad time.
05:58SPEAKER- Even when I had a roommate,
05:59SPEAKERwhen we got our first cable modem,
06:00SPEAKERI remember we just bought a switch.
06:02SPEAKER- Yeah. - Like a 10 base,
06:03SPEAKERnot 10 base, 100 base T?
06:05SPEAKER- 100 base T probably. - It probably would have
06:05SPEAKERbeen 100 base T, 100.
06:06SPEAKERIn fact, I still have that D-Link switch.
06:08SPEAKER- Oh God. - Made out of metal.
06:09SPEAKERIt was felt like a, built like a tank.
06:11SPEAKER- I like net gear switches,
06:12SPEAKER'cause they were made out of metal too.
06:13SPEAKER- But, but yeah, even then, it was just two of us
06:17SPEAKERpaying for, we paid for two static IPs.
06:19SPEAKER- Yep.
06:20SPEAKER- And plugged our computers into that switch
06:22SPEAKERand then plugged the switch into the cable modem.
06:24SPEAKER- Four bucks a month got you an extra IP back then.
06:26SPEAKER- Never even thought about that,
06:27SPEAKERthat we were just sitting there with unprotected computers
06:29SPEAKERdirectly on the internet for years.
06:31SPEAKER- I remember it was, it was about,
06:34SPEAKERit was midway through the Windows 2000.
06:36SPEAKERI had a server that ran 24/7 in my apartment in The Hate.
06:39SPEAKER- Wow. - And my COVID ISP
06:43SPEAKERsent me an email that was like,
06:44SPEAKER"Hey, we're turning off your internet.
06:45SPEAKER"If you don't take this Windows 2000 machine,
06:47SPEAKER"off of the network without a firewall,
06:49SPEAKER"because it's infecting every other node on this subnet."
06:52SPEAKER- Holy shit, that's humbling.
06:55SPEAKER- And I was like, "Oh, huh."
06:57SPEAKERI didn't ever think about this stuff before.
06:58SPEAKERThey're like, "Yeah, nobody does, fix it.
06:59SPEAKER"Here's the URL, go here and do this stuff.
07:02SPEAKER"You're probably gonna have to reinstall, nerd."
07:05SPEAKERSo the good news is Windows XP came out
07:07SPEAKERand fixed all of the security problems with Windows.
07:10SPEAKERIt brought 32-bit to the mass market.
07:14SPEAKER- And by that, you just mean, no, but not,
07:15SPEAKERthe mass market was not running 2000.
07:17SPEAKER- Or '98. - Right.
07:20SPEAKERWhat I mean is XP was not fundamentally
07:22SPEAKERdifferent under the hood from 2000, right?
07:23SPEAKERIt was just an evolution of that.
07:25SPEAKERSame-- - XP at launch
07:27SPEAKERwas just an evolution of Windows 2000, yes.
07:28SPEAKER- Same basic kernel, same structure.
07:31SPEAKER- I don't think it included a firewall, even.
07:32SPEAKER- Okay.
07:34SPEAKER- But also, around that time, people started buying routers
07:36SPEAKERto put multiple computers on the network at the same time.
07:38SPEAKER- That was the time people were really getting
07:40SPEAKERpermanent internet connections, right?
07:42SPEAKER- Yeah. - Okay.
07:43SPEAKER- So, okay, so-- - 2001, again, just to reiterate.
07:46SPEAKER- 2001. - God, wow, okay.
07:48SPEAKER- And XP also had the first major redesign
07:50SPEAKERof the Windows UI since '95.
07:51SPEAKER- Yeah, that's one of the things that I don't--
07:54SPEAKER- Oh, you don't like it? - No.
07:55SPEAKER- You don't like having File Explorer
07:57SPEAKERand your control panel right there,
07:58SPEAKERone click away from you at all the times?
07:59SPEAKER- Oh, I don't remember that stuff.
08:01SPEAKERWas that not common to 2000 and so forth?
08:04SPEAKER- You had to click down into the menus.
08:07SPEAKER- I should go back and look at screenshots.
08:07SPEAKERDid 2000 basically just kinda look like an involved '95?
08:10SPEAKERI guess it did. - Yeah, it did.
08:11SPEAKERIt looked like involved Windows '95, Windows ME.
08:14SPEAKER- I'm talking more just aesthetically.
08:15SPEAKERI really don't care for the big, bulbous,
08:18SPEAKERlike red and blue everything.
08:20SPEAKER- Oh, XP started with the bubbles.
08:22SPEAKER- Yeah, and the kind of famous,
08:25SPEAKERin fact, it's from Northern California, right?
08:27SPEAKERThe famous wallpaper?
08:28SPEAKER- Yeah, Luna, it's up in Marin someplace.
08:29SPEAKER- The rolling green hills. - There's a subdivision
08:31SPEAKERthere now. - That whole look
08:32SPEAKERto the graphical shell, I did not care for.
08:35SPEAKER- It was so friendly.
08:37SPEAKER- So the thing about Windows XP was it had,
08:41SPEAKERWindows 2000 had dynamic,
08:45SPEAKERnot dynamic, but personalizable start menu.
08:47SPEAKERSo it wasn't just like an alphabetized list
08:49SPEAKERof all the stuff installed in your computer.
08:50SPEAKER- Okay, so it didn't even customize the start menu
08:52SPEAKERbefore that? - You couldn't customize it
08:52SPEAKERbefore an IDA, yeah.
08:55SPEAKERWindows XP let you pin some stuff up there.
08:57SPEAKERIt let you, it was the launch of the modern control panel,
09:02SPEAKERlike the one with the subheadings that you,
09:04SPEAKERversus having a bunch of little applets
09:06SPEAKERyou just had them bundled up together.
09:07SPEAKER- The one that is still with us, if you dig for it.
09:09SPEAKER- This still haunts us today, yeah.
09:11SPEAKERIt's the beginning of my pictures and my music
09:14SPEAKERand my documents. - Oh, interesting.
09:15SPEAKER- Before that, they were just called documents
09:17SPEAKERand pictures and music. - Okay.
09:18SPEAKERBut still no user accounts, right?
09:20SPEAKER- No user accounts, you had Windows account.
09:22SPEAKERYeah, you could log off and turn off two separate actions.
09:25SPEAKERIf you'll note, I'm gonna flip it over
09:27SPEAKERso you just see it upside down,
09:28SPEAKERbut the administrator panel, that was your username.
09:33SPEAKER- Okay. - Yeah, so you had users--
09:36SPEAKER- I'm sorry, I'm mixing this up 'cause a few episodes ago
09:38SPEAKERwe talked about discrete kernel and user space.
09:41SPEAKER- That's-- - Under the hood
09:42SPEAKERfrom different user accounts. - That's different, yeah.
09:44SPEAKER- That's, I'm sorry, that's what I was getting
09:45SPEAKERmixed up here, but so XP did not have that stuff,
09:47SPEAKERbut I'm sure we'll get to that.
09:49SPEAKER- No, XP did not, yeah, well, eventually XP got that stuff.
09:52SPEAKER- Yes, far too late, I think. - Yeah, so I think,
09:56SPEAKERlike XP was a good, it also like did the smart folders,
10:00SPEAKERso you could have like an HTML folder.
10:02SPEAKER- Yes. - So like your pictures
10:04SPEAKERhad thumbnails and stuff like that.
10:05SPEAKER- Right. - You could design that
10:06SPEAKERif you wanted, or like the application providers
10:08SPEAKERcould do fancy stuff.
10:11SPEAKER- This is a strong list of improvements.
10:14SPEAKER- Windows Media Player?
10:15SPEAKER- As much as I don't like the look of Windows XP.
10:18SPEAKER- Windows Messenger?
10:19SPEAKER- There's like a lot of what I think of as modern Windows
10:21SPEAKERapparently came about with this.
10:23SPEAKER- It did, however, also probably the most insecure version
10:27SPEAKERof Windows ever made. - Right, yes, that is a huge--
10:29SPEAKER- Like the launch Windows XP, one debacle after the next.
10:32SPEAKER- Well, was it that bad up front or was it--
10:34SPEAKER- It took a year. - I was gonna say,
10:35SPEAKERit must have been like they needed a critical mass
10:37SPEAKERin the market before it's worth the time
10:38SPEAKERof insidious people to develop these attacks, right?
10:41SPEAKER- So what happened was all the people running Windows 95,
10:44SPEAKERlike you could upgrade Windows 95 to XP, right?
10:47SPEAKER- Okay. - All of the old versions
10:48SPEAKERof Windows, it was really good, it ran on everything.
10:51SPEAKERPeople upgraded all their old Windows
10:52SPEAKERas if it had enough RAM.
10:54SPEAKER- Do you contend that was the pathway
10:55SPEAKERthat people that were still on 95 and 98 at this time
10:58SPEAKERprobably went straight to XP?
10:59SPEAKER- Most of them probably just went and bought new computers.
11:00SPEAKER- Right, but they never ran 2000, they never ran.
11:04SPEAKER- Nobody ran 2000, outside of commerce.
11:06SPEAKERLike enterprise businesses ran 2000.
11:08SPEAKER- People like us. - Yeah.
11:10SPEAKER- Okay.
11:11SPEAKER- I mean, presumably they sold machines
11:13SPEAKERfor that year that it was out.
11:15SPEAKERSame thing for Windows 98, the year before that,
11:17SPEAKERor the year and a half before that.
11:19SPEAKERBut yeah, presumably-- - For all intents and purposes,
11:22SPEAKERXP is the successor to like the 98--
11:24SPEAKER- Also-- - Sort of regime.
11:27SPEAKER- Also during XP, the cost of computers went way down.
11:29SPEAKERSo this was when you were seeing like $500 machines
11:33SPEAKERthat weren't complete garbage.
11:34SPEAKER- Okay.
11:35SPEAKER- So like you could buy a computer for your kid
11:39SPEAKERand your kid could have a computer
11:40SPEAKERand you could have a computer.
11:41SPEAKERSo like we started seeing two and three computer households
11:44SPEAKERand stuff like that.
11:45SPEAKER- Laptops maybe getting better over this time?
11:47SPEAKER- Yeah, this was the first Windows.
11:49SPEAKERSo when Microsoft sent review units for Windows XP,
11:54SPEAKERthey sent a compact laptop
11:57SPEAKERthat I think even had Wi-Fi built in maybe?
12:00SPEAKER- Oh, it did. - It may not have.
12:01SPEAKERThat may have been the one that you had a PCMCIA card.
12:03SPEAKER- That's a really interesting window
12:04SPEAKERon the tech press back then to me.
12:06SPEAKERWhen it was time to review Windows,
12:08SPEAKERdid they not just send out Windows?
12:09SPEAKER- So they sent out copy,
12:11SPEAKERbut they also sent out the Windows reference machine.
12:14SPEAKER- No kidding.
12:15SPEAKERSo you would get every time a Windows release,
12:16SPEAKERthey would straight up send the publication to computer?
12:18SPEAKER- Not every time, but on big releases,
12:22SPEAKERlike for Longhorn, they definitely did that.
12:25SPEAKERThey would send out like what was the standard issue computer
12:30SPEAKERthat they handed out to people on that team?
12:33SPEAKERSo that it was the one that they built for,
12:35SPEAKERso it had the best drivers and the best everything.
12:37SPEAKERSo it was like--
12:38SPEAKER- Here's the optimal Windows experience.
12:40SPEAKER- Yeah, and since part of the deal with Windows XP
12:42SPEAKERwas they were saying you're gonna get
12:43SPEAKERmuch better battery life,
12:44SPEAKERthey wanted to showcase the,
12:45SPEAKERand also laptop drivers lagged really a long time back then.
12:50SPEAKERThey sent that one specifically
12:51SPEAKERso you could see what battery life was gonna be like.
12:54SPEAKERSo I think Windows XP is probably middle of the pack for me.
12:58SPEAKER- In terms of historic legacy?
13:01SPEAKER- Huge, yeah, huge.
13:02SPEAKER- In terms of actually, was this a thing that was good?
13:05SPEAKER- I mean, it got everybody onto 32-bit Windows.
13:07SPEAKER- That's true.
13:08SPEAKER- Like everybody.
13:09SPEAKER- And user accounts and all of the stuff
13:10SPEAKERthat ended up being the baseline
13:11SPEAKERfor what we expect on Windows now.
13:14SPEAKERWe still use that control panel today.
13:16SPEAKER- Yes.
13:17SPEAKER- But I think that this is,
13:20SPEAKERI'm gonna say, I would say this is between NT4 and 98,
13:25SPEAKERprobably.
13:26SPEAKER- Between NT4 and 98.
13:27SPEAKER98 brought USB, USB's a big deal.
13:31SPEAKERMaybe between 98 and 2000.
13:33SPEAKERI don't think it's better than 2000.
13:34SPEAKER- I feel like, to be clear,
13:36SPEAKERyour big knock against it is the insecure nature of it.
13:39SPEAKER- Hold on.
13:41SPEAKER- Like I said, I don't like the UI,
13:42SPEAKERso that's kind of holding it back for me.
13:43SPEAKER- Are we gonna talk about SP2 as a separate Windows?
13:46SPEAKER- Oh no, I don't think no, I think we have to.
13:48SPEAKER- Okay, so if we're talking about SP2,
13:49SPEAKERit's above 2000 for sure.
13:50SPEAKER- I think the rubric there has to be if you bought it,
13:54SPEAKERthen what I mean is, if you had access to all of that,
13:58SPEAKERthe full scope of Windows XP with one purchase,
14:01SPEAKERthen that's one thing, right?
14:02SPEAKER- But Windows SP2 added the firewall,
14:05SPEAKERit added user account control,
14:07SPEAKERit added all of these things.
14:08SPEAKER- Yeah, but I just mean,
14:09SPEAKERI think we incorporate that into all of XP, right?
14:13SPEAKER'Cause if you bought XP on day one,
14:15SPEAKERthen you still had access to SP2 without paying more money,
14:17SPEAKERso it still counts as one thing.
14:18SPEAKER- Yeah, but you still ran a real bad OS for like a year,
14:21SPEAKERwhile it was janky and bad.
14:23SPEAKER- That's why we're the professionals here.
14:25SPEAKER- Oh man.
14:26SPEAKER- We have to weigh pros and cons.
14:27SPEAKER- This is tough.
14:28SPEAKERI was thinking we were gonna put SP2
14:29SPEAKERon a separate level.
14:31SPEAKER- I think that's cop-out.
14:34SPEAKER- Oh man.
14:34SPEAKER- I think it was one product.
14:36SPEAKERIt was one product that they updated
14:37SPEAKERover the lifespan of their support.
14:40SPEAKER- But they stopped development on the next operating system
14:43SPEAKERto go back and fix XP.
14:46SPEAKER- Was that Longhorn?
14:47SPEAKER- Yeah, that was Longhorn.
14:48SPEAKER- Was that what Longhorn was?
14:48SPEAKERSo that's nothing.
14:49SPEAKER- Longhorn was three things.
14:51SPEAKERThey stopped and started twice
14:53SPEAKERand then finally released Windows Vista.
14:55SPEAKER- Okay, that's the thing,
14:55SPEAKER'cause I always thought Longhorn
14:56SPEAKERwas just the code name for Vista.
14:57SPEAKER- It was.
14:58SPEAKER- Right, but I didn't realize there were other aspects there.
15:01SPEAKERDid you ever use one of the previous versions
15:03SPEAKERthat didn't come out?
15:04SPEAKER- They were available.
15:05SPEAKER- Huh.
15:06SPEAKER- Not from, not legally.
15:08SPEAKER- Oh, were those the things that had like WinFS?
15:11SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know that they ever shipped anything
15:13SPEAKERwith WinFS outside Microsoft.
15:14SPEAKER- Okay.
15:16SPEAKER- But okay, so the story is they were planning
15:18SPEAKERanother 18 month to two year cadence for whatever followed
15:22SPEAKERWindows XP, Longhorn.
15:23SPEAKER- Okay.
15:24SPEAKER- And then they got midway through and they were like,
15:26SPEAKERwe can't release this, it's not gonna work.
15:29SPEAKERScrap it and start over.
15:30SPEAKER- Like it was just bad?
15:31SPEAKER- It was, WinFS wasn't working.
15:33SPEAKERThey were basing the whole thing
15:34SPEAKERon having a database file system.
15:35SPEAKER- Right.
15:36SPEAKER- Which turns out bad idea.
15:38SPEAKERThe problem was around this time,
15:41SPEAKERWindows XP started being Swiss cheese
15:44SPEAKERand was hacked mercilessly.
15:46SPEAKERSo they had to like break off a chunk of team
15:50SPEAKERto go back and fix that
15:51SPEAKERbecause they weren't gonna have a new operating system.
15:53SPEAKERThey could just be like, hey, you gotta upgrade
15:54SPEAKER'cause your old one's a piece of shit.
15:56SPEAKERSo like they were, it's the classic,
16:00SPEAKERit's the classic, you have a beater car
16:01SPEAKERthat you have to keep putting money into it
16:03SPEAKERso you can't afford to buy a new car.
16:04SPEAKER- Right.
16:05SPEAKER- Like that's what Microsoft was doing
16:06SPEAKERwith billions of dollars.
16:07SPEAKER- Except in your analogy, there is no better car.
16:10SPEAKER- Yeah.
16:11SPEAKER- Like in this example, car two has not been released yet.
16:15SPEAKER- It is having a lot of problems.
16:17SPEAKER- That's exactly right.
16:17SPEAKER- In R&D.
16:18SPEAKER- Everything is Yugo's.
16:19SPEAKER- Like they're, yeah, they're like,
16:20SPEAKERyeah, you were driving a Yugo
16:22SPEAKERand there was no Mercedes to go purchase.
16:26SPEAKER- Ford had announced the Pinto.
16:28SPEAKER- Right, exactly.
16:29SPEAKERLike, well, okay, let's roll back to XP.
16:31SPEAKER- Okay.
16:32SPEAKER- So XP comes out late 2001.
16:34SPEAKER- Late 2001.
16:35SPEAKERIt's pretty good.
16:35SPEAKERPerformance is good.
16:36SPEAKER- Is SP1 just not worth noting?
16:38SPEAKER- SP1 was just like, eh.
16:40SPEAKER- Just whatever.
16:41SPEAKERSP2 is the one that really fixed it.
16:42SPEAKER- It's like new version of Inner Explorer.
16:43SPEAKER- When did SP2 come out?
16:45SPEAKER- What I'm asking is like, what is the window.
16:48SPEAKER- That is a good question.
16:49SPEAKERLet's see.
16:50SPEAKER- The window on Windows?
16:52SPEAKER- XP being bad before it got fixed.
16:55SPEAKER- Service pack two was released August of 2004.
16:59SPEAKER- Oh, wow.
17:00SPEAKER- Yeah.
17:01SPEAKER- Geez, so like almost three years?
17:02SPEAKER- Three years.
17:04SPEAKERTwo years and 10 months.
17:05SPEAKER- That's a long time for Windows XP to be bad.
17:08SPEAKER- So in fairness, Windows XP was probably only bad
17:10SPEAKERfor the last year of that.
17:11SPEAKER- Oh, like, 'cause that's when the attacks
17:13SPEAKERreally started ramping up.
17:14SPEAKER- That's when the attacks started getting bad.
17:15SPEAKER- Okay.
17:15SPEAKER- They did add a firewall.
17:17SPEAKERIt wasn't very good.
17:18SPEAKERLike you couldn't use it and play games
17:20SPEAKERand stuff like that, as I recall.
17:21SPEAKER- Okay.
17:22SPEAKER- It had clear type, Windows XP.
17:24SPEAKERClear type's pretty good.
17:25SPEAKER- Wait, are we talking SP2 here, or?
17:26SPEAKER- This is just XP.
17:27SPEAKER- Okay.
17:28SPEAKER- SP2, it's also the first one that was segmented.
17:31SPEAKERThe first consumer one.
17:33SPEAKERSo you could buy the home or the pro.
17:35SPEAKER- Oh, I thought you said 2000 had that.
17:37SPEAKER- 2000, but that was like--
17:38SPEAKER- Or an enterprise.
17:39SPEAKER- Enterprise and server stuff, so that doesn't count.
17:40SPEAKER- Okay, sure.
17:41SPEAKERSo SP2 added WPA encryption for Wi-Fi,
17:47SPEAKERusability improvements for Wi-Fi.
17:49SPEAKERIt added the Wi-Fi networking interface
17:52SPEAKERso you could click on something
17:53SPEAKERand it wasn't like part of the drivers,
17:54SPEAKERpart of Windows XP now.
17:56SPEAKERPartial Bluetooth support
17:58SPEAKERand various improvements to security systems.
18:01SPEAKER- Did they actually abstract out like the sort of user stuff?
18:06SPEAKER- They added UAC, essentially.
18:08SPEAKER- Well, that's separate, right?
18:09SPEAKEROr did that also include--
18:10SPEAKER- No, I guess what I'm asking is
18:12SPEAKERare there under the hood elements to UAC
18:15SPEAKERthat are not apparent?
18:15SPEAKER- Yes, so they couldn't just tack it on.
18:17SPEAKERThey had to change how the kernel works.
18:19SPEAKER- Okay, 'cause the front facing aspect of UAC
18:20SPEAKERis just the thing that people probably just get annoyed with
18:23SPEAKERwhen it pops up and says,
18:24SPEAKER"Hey, do you really wanna do this?"
18:25SPEAKER- Yeah, but they had to change the way the main OS worked.
18:28SPEAKER- Okay, that's what I'm asking.
18:29SPEAKER- So that the software couldn't just run
18:30SPEAKERregardless of whether you pressed yes or not.
18:32SPEAKER- I see.
18:33SPEAKEROkay, so they basically rebuilt the entire structure
18:35SPEAKERof the kind of user mode.
18:38SPEAKER- And if you don't know what UAC is,
18:39SPEAKERUAC is that thing that pops up
18:40SPEAKERwhen you try to install a new program on Windows.
18:42SPEAKER- What does it say for user account control?
18:44SPEAKER- User account control, yeah.
18:46SPEAKERAnd it pops up and says,
18:46SPEAKER"Hey, this is asking to install some stuff.
18:50SPEAKERDo you wanna install this?"
18:51SPEAKERAnd you have to click yes.
18:51SPEAKER- Anything that tries to make changes
18:52SPEAKERto what they consider the system pops that warning, right?
18:57SPEAKERAnything that is trying to--
18:58SPEAKER- Anything outside of your user folder, basically, yeah.
19:02SPEAKERSo they released new media.
19:03SPEAKERThey patched some ActiveX stuff so that it was less,
19:06SPEAKERso that you had to manually click that
19:08SPEAKER'cause that was a vector for infection.
19:13SPEAKERFirewall was turned on by default.
19:16SPEAKERAnd raw socket support was removed,
19:17SPEAKERwhich stopped the zombie machine problem, which was,
19:19SPEAKERso the problem was, the problem with Windows XP and 2000
19:24SPEAKERwas that Windows, infected Windows XP machines could affect,
19:27SPEAKERcould infect other unpatched Windows XP machines
19:30SPEAKERwithout a user doing anything.
19:32SPEAKERIf they were directly on the internet,
19:33SPEAKERwhich all of them were at the time,
19:35SPEAKER'cause it was 2001, 2002.
19:37SPEAKERSo like at some point, all these zombie botnets and stuff,
19:42SPEAKERlike the early botnets were on all these unpatched
19:45SPEAKERWindows XP machines, and it was just, it was a nightmare.
19:49SPEAKERIt was really bad.
19:50SPEAKER- It's crazy to me that what must have been
19:52SPEAKERthe biggest company in the world at the time, right?
19:54SPEAKERLike probably?
19:55SPEAKER- It was like right up there.
19:57SPEAKERBiggest tech company for sure.
19:58SPEAKER- Yeah, for sure.
19:59SPEAKER- Like Exxon and Shell and BP and stuff were probably bigger.
20:01SPEAKER- It seems like an insane level of malpractice
20:03SPEAKERto ship a product with is that vulnerable.
20:05SPEAKER- Well, it's just computers.
20:06SPEAKERIt's not real stuff.
20:07SPEAKERIt doesn't matter.
20:08SPEAKER- I guess.
20:09SPEAKER- Nobody uses these for anything real.
20:10SPEAKERIt's just like, yeah, your accounting software
20:11SPEAKERwill be jacked up for a little bit.
20:13SPEAKER- I guess this is the benefit of hindsight talking,
20:14SPEAKERthat it seems crazy to me now.
20:16SPEAKERLike obviously nobody at the time knew what was going on.
20:19SPEAKERIt seems like they should have known.
20:20SPEAKERThey should have had some expectation of this.
20:22SPEAKER- I mean, I'm sure in 10 years or 15 years
20:25SPEAKERwhen the people that were working on this stuff
20:26SPEAKERall are retired and start writing books,
20:29SPEAKERwe'll find out that there were people
20:30SPEAKERin there screaming bloody murder.
20:31SPEAKER- I don't know what it says about me,
20:33SPEAKERbut I would read a stack of books
20:34SPEAKERabout the development of various Windowses.
20:36SPEAKER- God, I keep hoping Sinofsky will write
20:38SPEAKERthe Longhorn book that I want to read.
20:41SPEAKERSo yeah, they knew, but it hadn't been a problem yet.
20:46SPEAKER- Okay, is this kind of a security
20:48SPEAKERthrough obscurity sort of thing
20:49SPEAKERof just like nobody is doing these things
20:52SPEAKERso nobody can attack them?
20:54SPEAKER- Well, probably, and then they also,
20:55SPEAKERso the cultural change that happened with XP
20:58SPEAKERwas they went from backwards compatibility above all
21:01SPEAKERto security first, then everything else.
21:03SPEAKER- With SP2?
21:05SPEAKER- Between XP and SP2.
21:06SPEAKER- Okay, sure.
21:07SPEAKER- So if you think about, they didn't do the UAC stuff,
21:12SPEAKERthey didn't do the firewall on by default
21:14SPEAKERbecause it jacked up backwards compatibility
21:16SPEAKERfor stuff that predated Windows NT in 2000.
21:20SPEAKER- Sure.
21:22SPEAKER- So they had to make that institutional change,
21:29SPEAKERbut yeah, it was a real problem for Microsoft.
21:35SPEAKER- Also, I think they probably thought they had,
21:37SPEAKERI think they probably thought they'd get another version
21:38SPEAKERof Windows out before everybody was connected
21:40SPEAKERto the internet all the time.
21:41SPEAKER- Okay.
21:42SPEAKER- Would be my guess.
21:43SPEAKER- 'Cause I guess if they, on their previous,
21:44SPEAKERlike what, 18 month release cadence or so,
21:46SPEAKERit's like, oh, people won't have time
21:48SPEAKERto be super vulnerable on this version
21:50SPEAKERbefore we make them buy a new version.
21:51SPEAKER- Yeah, at that point, they had two Windowses
21:53SPEAKERon two year release cadences.
21:55SPEAKERSo if they'd move all those teams together
21:57SPEAKERand put them on one, two giant teams
22:00SPEAKERon one year release cadence,
22:02SPEAKEReverything that I read in the Mythical Man month
22:04SPEAKERteaches me that they should get that Windows
22:06SPEAKERout twice as fast, right?
22:07SPEAKER- Of course, yeah, that's exactly how that works.
22:09SPEAKER- Didn't work that way.
22:11SPEAKEROkay, so if we're combining post SP2 and pre SP2,
22:16SPEAKERoh man, this is also when Windows XP tablet edition
22:19SPEAKERcame out and Media Center.
22:21SPEAKERThis is when they were doing all sorts of weird stuff
22:22SPEAKERwith Windows, man.
22:24SPEAKER- Okay, it introduced a lot of the sort of modern features
22:27SPEAKERand structure that we expect from Windows.
22:30SPEAKERIt was a insanely insecure mess for three years.
22:35SPEAKER- Also probably the most popular, like with a bullet,
22:39SPEAKERthe most popular version of Windows for a really long time.
22:41SPEAKER- Oh yeah, for sure, like maybe ever?
22:43SPEAKERI don't know.
22:44SPEAKER- No, at this point 2010 has probably caught up,
22:47SPEAKERor seven now, sure, yeah.
22:49SPEAKERIt was supported until 2014.
22:51SPEAKER- Okay, this is terrible, but do you have a screenshot
22:54SPEAKERof Windows XP?
22:55SPEAKER- Yes.
22:56SPEAKER- Of the interface, the default UI?
22:58SPEAKER- This is Luna, that's what they call it.
22:59SPEAKER- I want to make sure.
23:01SPEAKER- OS X was called Aqua, this was Luna.
23:04SPEAKER- You're right, that is what I thought it was.
23:05SPEAKERI just want to make sure I'm not mixing up XP and seven,
23:08SPEAKERoh, you know what, seven has the rounded--
23:09SPEAKER- Yeah, they got rid of the star button.
23:11SPEAKER- I don't like that either.
23:13SPEAKER- What?
23:13SPEAKER- I was very particular about my UI.
23:15SPEAKER- God, you're one of those guys.
23:16SPEAKER- I mean, I was like, I was installing weird
23:18SPEAKERthird party theme stuff, like I was making my Windows
23:20SPEAKERlook like OS X for a long time.
23:22SPEAKER- If you want to make your Windows look really cool
23:24SPEAKERand crash a lot, it's a great way to do that.
23:26SPEAKER- Right?
23:27SPEAKER- Okay.
23:28SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't like the look of XP or seven,
23:30SPEAKERbut okay, so I think XP's ugly,
23:33SPEAKERit did a lot of important stuff, it was also a mess.
23:36SPEAKER- So you're putting it, so where does that land?
23:38SPEAKER- That's a lot of hot and cold.
23:40SPEAKER- Yeah, that's up and down.
23:42SPEAKERNo matter where we put this, people are going to be upset.
23:44SPEAKER- At the same time, it sounds insane to say
23:46SPEAKERWindows 2000 was better than XP.
23:49SPEAKER- Look, I once did a magazine article
23:51SPEAKERwith the 500 most important pieces of technology
23:53SPEAKERof all time, and we put USB at number one,
23:55SPEAKERso I'm no stranger to controversy.
23:58SPEAKER- Yeah.
24:00SPEAKER- You know what, I think you made a good case.
24:01SPEAKERIf we're bundling in post SP2,
24:03SPEAKERwhich made Windows XP good again,
24:05SPEAKERI think it has to be number one.
24:06SPEAKER- Wow, really?
24:08SPEAKER- Probably, yeah.
24:08SPEAKER- Even with all the, man, the security headache
24:11SPEAKERjust seems like such a huge knock against it.
24:14SPEAKER- I mean, well, what's going to be number one
24:16SPEAKERif not Windows XP?
24:17SPEAKERYou're going to put Windows 7 at number one?
24:20SPEAKER- Well, we haven't gotten there yet.
24:20SPEAKER- Is that a circle that you hate?
24:21SPEAKER- We haven't gotten there yet, we'll figure that out.
24:22SPEAKER- What about Windows 10?
24:23SPEAKERIt's definitely not going to be Windows 8.
24:25SPEAKER- We'll figure that out.
24:25SPEAKER- I'm foreshadowing.
24:27SPEAKER- It feels like XP should be over 2000, but under 98.
24:31SPEAKER- Oh, you think we need to reorder the list?
24:33SPEAKER- And yet that is currently impossible on our list.
24:35SPEAKER- Huh, we could do a pointer.
24:37SPEAKER- I don't know.
24:38SPEAKER- You think Windows 98's better than 2000?
24:40SPEAKERI could see that.
24:41SPEAKER- I don't know.
24:42SPEAKER- Performance, man.
24:43SPEAKERWe didn't talk about performance last week.
24:44SPEAKERThose benchmark numbers.
24:45SPEAKER- No, I don't think that.
24:46SPEAKER- They're damning.
24:47SPEAKER- I don't think that at all.
24:48SPEAKER- 15, 20% performance hit on Windows 2000.
24:51SPEAKER- Man, this is tough.
24:52SPEAKER- You didn't have that many frames to give up back then.
24:54SPEAKER- No, you really didn't.
24:55SPEAKERYou went from 70 to 60.
24:57SPEAKERI mean, of course, a human cannot see anything faster
25:00SPEAKERthan 24 frames a second.
25:01SPEAKER- No, definitely.
25:02SPEAKER- According to the science of the time.
25:03SPEAKER- I did that little web app.
25:04SPEAKERIt proved that.
25:05SPEAKER- Yeah.
25:06SPEAKERI would be okay with moving Windows 98
25:07SPEAKERup to the number one slot tentatively.
25:10SPEAKER- I don't know.
25:11SPEAKER- And then putting Windows XP.
25:12SPEAKER- Now that you say that.
25:14SPEAKERI was more excited about Windows 2000 than I was XP.
25:16SPEAKER- Well, I mean, that's right.
25:18SPEAKER- But.
25:19SPEAKER- You got DirectX.
25:20SPEAKERReal DirectX.
25:21SPEAKER5.5, 5.1.
25:23SPEAKERXP is like ugly and.
25:26SPEAKER- XP looked like the future.
25:28SPEAKERIt's not ugly.
25:28SPEAKERIt's optimistic.
25:29SPEAKER- What do we got?
25:30SPEAKERWe got 2098.
25:31SPEAKER- 2098 and then NT4.
25:33SPEAKERI think XP has to be in the number one slot right now.
25:35SPEAKER- Wow, what?
25:36SPEAKERThat's crazy to me.
25:37SPEAKERI was gonna say like, I could actually,
25:38SPEAKERnow that I think about it again,
25:39SPEAKERI would say I would put it in like number three.
25:42SPEAKER- Behind 98?
25:43SPEAKER- Yeah.
25:44SPEAKER- Wow.
25:45SPEAKER- That security stuff just really eats at me.
25:48SPEAKER- You know what?
25:49SPEAKERYou're right.
25:50SPEAKER- To be honest.
25:51SPEAKER- I can cave on this.
25:52SPEAKER- Let's put it at two.
25:53SPEAKERBut you know, by that argument,
25:55SPEAKERWindows 2000, just as insecure as XP.
25:58SPEAKER- Yeah, but it wasn't exposed to,
26:00SPEAKERit wasn't like as much of a threat surface, I guess.
26:03SPEAKER- Do I need to tell you about getting the letter from the ISP
26:05SPEAKERthat was like, we're gonna turn off your DSL?
26:07SPEAKER- Yeah, but how many people actually experienced
26:08SPEAKERthat at the time?
26:09SPEAKER- I did.
26:10SPEAKERA half, 50%.
26:11SPEAKER- Like it was a less dangerous internet at the time.
26:13SPEAKER- It was a less dangerous internet.
26:14SPEAKER- It was the thing.
26:15SPEAKERSo I've got the NAS and I've, like I said,
26:17SPEAKERI've dumped hard drive after hard drive on there.
26:19SPEAKER- Yeah.
26:20SPEAKER- So Fender prompted me to do a virus scan
26:22SPEAKERof like my big NAS volume.
26:24SPEAKER- Oh boy.
26:25SPEAKER- For some reason, I forget what it was.
26:26SPEAKERIt flagged something.
26:27SPEAKER- Yeah, it's lousy with 90s malware.
26:29SPEAKER- Yeah, like, so it's scanned.
26:30SPEAKERAnd again, I've just got directory after directory of crap.
26:32SPEAKERI should just delete, but like, it's just, it's so,
26:36SPEAKERit's so time consuming to go through all that stuff
26:38SPEAKERthat I'd rather just let it sit there.
26:40SPEAKER- You know what?
26:40SPEAKER- 'Cause there might be something in there.
26:41SPEAKER- Let me tell you about my solution for this problem.
26:44SPEAKERIn my garage on the shelf above my desk
26:46SPEAKERwhere if there's an earthquake
26:47SPEAKERand I'm sitting at the workbench in there,
26:48SPEAKERit will literally kill me.
26:50SPEAKERThere's a box with every hard drive I've ever owned.
26:53SPEAKER- But what's the point of having one?
26:54SPEAKERWhy did I build the NAS
26:55SPEAKERif I can't put every piece of data that I have on it?
26:58SPEAKERThat's the whole, that's the whole thing.
26:59SPEAKERYou don't like, that thing has paid dividends
27:01SPEAKER'cause like when it came up on the bomb cast
27:04SPEAKERthat there was that spreadsheet file
27:05SPEAKERthat we used a GameSpot to-
27:06SPEAKER- That's where you got it?
27:07SPEAKER- To, yeah, dude, like when that came up,
27:10SPEAKERI remembered the name of the spreadsheet
27:12SPEAKERand I just hopped on my share volume
27:14SPEAKERand I just searched for scorecalc.xls.
27:16SPEAKER- Oh my God.
27:17SPEAKER- And it came right up.
27:18SPEAKER- That's so good.
27:19SPEAKER- Like it's been really cool.
27:20SPEAKERLike I stumbled into some .tivo files.
27:24SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
27:25SPEAKER- If you can believe it.
27:26SPEAKER- I have .tivo files still.
27:27SPEAKER- Did you ever do that?
27:27SPEAKER- Yeah.
27:28SPEAKER- I don't remember what the process was,
27:29SPEAKERbut I guess you could-
27:30SPEAKER- You had a Python script that you would pull them off.
27:32SPEAKER- I feel like this predates Python.
27:35SPEAKER- The old way you did it was they had a desktop application
27:37SPEAKERyou had to pay for.
27:38SPEAKERIt was $25.
27:39SPEAKER- That might be what it was.
27:40SPEAKER- And you could copy stuff over
27:42SPEAKERand it was like an MPEG-2 video file
27:44SPEAKERthat took up a ton of space.
27:45SPEAKER- Yeah, but yeah, they were huge,
27:46SPEAKERbut I found some old .tivo files of like local news reports
27:50SPEAKERfrom back home of my grandfather flying to DC as part of,
27:54SPEAKERI think it was called Honor Air.
27:55SPEAKERIt was a program to get World War II vets-
27:57SPEAKER- That's awesome.
27:58SPEAKER- Up to see the new memorial like while they still could.
28:01SPEAKER- That's amazing.
28:02SPEAKER- And I had no idea I even had that stuff.
28:03SPEAKERLike that's why I have this giant repository
28:05SPEAKER'cause I've just got like years and years of just stuff.
28:08SPEAKER- Your hoarding has paid off.
28:09SPEAKER- Most of it is crap,
28:10SPEAKERbut occasionally you find some very sentimental gem
28:13SPEAKERin there like that.
28:13SPEAKERBut anyway, Defender prompted this scan and I was like,
28:17SPEAKER"Okay, it says it's probably gonna take two hours to scan-
28:20SPEAKER- Yeah, terabytes.
28:21SPEAKER- Eight different directories called old desktop
28:23SPEAKERwith like one or more exclamation marks in front of it.
28:26SPEAKER- I at least put, when I copy the old desktop folder,
28:29SPEAKERI at least put the date on it.
28:31SPEAKER- I should, well, luckily all the date modified stamps.
28:35SPEAKER- You can't trust that stuff.
28:36SPEAKERThat's not gonna hold.
28:37SPEAKER- Well, they're pretty accurate.
28:37SPEAKER- Oh, okay, okay.
28:38SPEAKER- Date created, the time created you can't trust.
28:40SPEAKER- Yeah.
28:41SPEAKER- 'Cause those will get updated when you-
28:42SPEAKER- When you copy it to the new drive.
28:43SPEAKER- Drive to drive.
28:43SPEAKERBut the date modified by and large has been very accurate.
28:47SPEAKERAnyway, all of the junk that I had from around the window
28:50SPEAKERof XP, like around that time period.
28:53SPEAKERAnd because I didn't run Vista,
28:54SPEAKERthat probably was extended a couple extra years.
28:56SPEAKER- Oh yeah, you probably went all the way through.
28:58SPEAKER- I probably used XP.
28:59SPEAKERHow long did you use XP?
29:00SPEAKERFor like five years?
29:01SPEAKER- I used it until Vista came out.
29:02SPEAKERThen I had to switch to Vista 'cause it'd work.
29:03SPEAKER- Like I tried Vista and I was like, "Man, no."
29:06SPEAKER- That was the right choice.
29:07SPEAKER- I think I formatted and went back to XP.
29:10SPEAKERPoint being, I used XP for a long time.
29:12SPEAKER- Service pack three came out in 2008.
29:15SPEAKER- Wow.
29:15SPEAKER- You could have been using XP when we started,
29:17SPEAKERwhen I started testing.
29:18SPEAKER- I probably, I might have been.
29:20SPEAKER- I know.
29:20SPEAKER- When did Windows 7 come out?
29:21SPEAKER- We're not there yet.
29:22SPEAKER- Well no, but I mean, I need to know,
29:23SPEAKERlike I probably went straight from XP to 7,
29:25SPEAKERif I'm not mistaken.
29:26SPEAKER- That would be my, that was the normal path.
29:28SPEAKER- I'm just trying to put an end date on my XP usage here.
29:31SPEAKER- Windows 7 came out in 2009.
29:33SPEAKER- Oh wow.
29:34SPEAKER- End of 2009.
29:35SPEAKER- Okay, so yeah, like I may well have been using XP.
29:37SPEAKERAnyway, like very long story short,
29:39SPEAKERDefender probably popped eight or 10 different files.
29:42SPEAKER- Well, that was also Napster time.
29:44SPEAKERLike if you were in Napster and LimeWire
29:46SPEAKERand all that stuff, downloading God knows what
29:48SPEAKERfrom God knows where.
29:49SPEAKER- But it was 100%, you know, like I said,
29:51SPEAKERit was a couple of key gens for like fucking WinZip
29:54SPEAKERor Nero or whatever I had.
29:56SPEAKERIt was some of that stuff that you would use
29:57SPEAKERto like edit OS files to get like your custom OS 10 theme
30:01SPEAKERin there.
30:02SPEAKERThere was an ASP file.
30:03SPEAKER- Oh, that's always good.
30:04SPEAKER- I had like saved some webpage.
30:06SPEAKER- Yeah.
30:07SPEAKER- I don't know what it was, but I had saved some webpage
30:08SPEAKERand had found a virus in an ASP or an ASPX,
30:11SPEAKERso I forget which one.
30:12SPEAKER- And like also Word docs were lousy with stuff
30:15SPEAKERby that point too.
30:16SPEAKERSo it was maybe a little earlier.
30:17SPEAKER- I felt like kind of skeezed out when it ran the scan
30:20SPEAKERand found like all this stuff and all these XP era files
30:25SPEAKERthat I had lying around.
30:26SPEAKER- Well, I mean, the nice thing is Windows Defender
30:28SPEAKERknows what that is.
30:29SPEAKERYou're totally good.
30:30SPEAKER- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
30:31SPEAKERI mean, it cleaned it, but I'm just saying like XP
30:32SPEAKERwas kind of a rough.
30:33SPEAKER- It was a dark time period.
30:34SPEAKERIt was a dark time for Windows.
30:35SPEAKERIt was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
30:37SPEAKER- I would put it at like number three.
30:39SPEAKER- And I think it's gotta be above 98.
30:41SPEAKER- Okay, okay, fine.
30:42SPEAKERAll right, I'm okay with that.
30:44SPEAKER- This is the kind of caving I like.
30:46SPEAKERYeah, whatever, just move on.
30:48SPEAKERI'm gonna put with SP2.
30:50SPEAKER- Okay, yeah.
30:51SPEAKER- If it was without SP2,
30:53SPEAKERI'd put it above like Windows 3.1 probably.
30:55SPEAKER- Jeez.
30:56SPEAKER- Yeah, next up on our long storied history of Windows
31:02SPEAKERis Longhorn, oh boy.
31:04SPEAKER- So it was code named Longhorn all the way up to release?
31:07SPEAKER- That I don't know about,
31:08SPEAKERbut that's what we always called it on maximum PC.
31:10SPEAKER- I mean, I just want to make sure
31:11SPEAKERthose aren't totally separate products.
31:13SPEAKER- It was called Longhorn for a long time.
31:16SPEAKER- Okay, this was like '06, right?
31:18SPEAKER- '07, January 30, 2007.
31:20SPEAKER- Oh wow, okay.
31:21SPEAKER- So they missed the holiday 2006 even
31:26SPEAKERafter taking five years, holy cow.
31:30SPEAKERYou could get it on January 30, 2007.
31:34SPEAKERThis one is one of the first ones I downloaded.
31:36SPEAKERAnd we of course had it early 'cause I did the review
31:38SPEAKERof this too, it was still at maximum PC then.
31:41SPEAKEROkay, so here's the stuff that they did that was good.
31:43SPEAKERIt had UAC from the beginning.
31:44SPEAKERUAC worked better than it did in Windows XP,
31:47SPEAKERbut still not great.
31:51SPEAKERThe new or changed features list,
31:53SPEAKERthey had Aero, which was the transparent.
31:57SPEAKERThis was the first 3D rendered desktop.
31:59SPEAKER- Yes, 3D accelerated elements in the desktop.
32:02SPEAKERI kind of liked the look of Aero.
32:05SPEAKER- I liked the smoked glass Aero, I did not like
32:07SPEAKERthe blue Aero.
32:08SPEAKER- Oh, were those both in the shipping?
32:09SPEAKER- Yeah, you could switch back and forth between them.
32:12SPEAKERJust so you can remember, that is what it looked like.
32:15SPEAKER- Yeah, I kind of liked that look.
32:17SPEAKER- This is basically, I guess the current Windows menu
32:20SPEAKERis a little different 'cause it has all the lame tiles.
32:23SPEAKERThis is the one that I liked.
32:24SPEAKERThis is the one, this UI lasted from Windows 7,
32:28SPEAKERAero lasted from Windows 7, Windows Vista and Windows 7.
32:31SPEAKER- Oh, the same.
32:33SPEAKER- It was the same basic design.
32:34SPEAKER- Oh, interesting, okay.
32:35SPEAKER- Windows 8, they changed to the tiles.
32:40SPEAKER- Yeah, we'll get to that.
32:41SPEAKER- It was five years after XP came out.
32:45SPEAKER- What was bad about Vista?
32:46SPEAKERI feel like we should just cut to the chase.
32:48SPEAKER- It was really, really slow.
32:49SPEAKER- Because everybody hates Vista.
32:52SPEAKER- It was tremendously slow and crashy.
32:55SPEAKER- Oh, yeah, yeah, it was like straight up unstable, right?
32:58SPEAKER- The driver model was unstable.
33:00SPEAKERSo when they build a Windows, they have to lock
33:03SPEAKERthe driver model probably a year, year and a half
33:05SPEAKERbefore the actual OS is done.
33:08SPEAKERAnd as I understand, I don't know if this is true or not,
33:10SPEAKERbut what I've always heard is that didn't happen
33:11SPEAKERin the timeframe that it should have.
33:13SPEAKERSo vendors were writing drivers for targets
33:16SPEAKERthat were still moving so that they could release,
33:18SPEAKERlike there's tens of thousands of devices
33:21SPEAKERthat have to have drivers written for them
33:23SPEAKERand Epson isn't gonna write them
33:25SPEAKERfor all the ancient printers.
33:27SPEAKERSo somebody at Microsoft does it.
33:28SPEAKERAnd it was, anyway, stuff was crashing.
33:31SPEAKER- You're right, I completely forgot
33:33SPEAKERthat you would get the XP driver or the Vista driver, right?
33:36SPEAKER- Yeah.
33:36SPEAKER- Like they actually split that stuff out.
33:38SPEAKER- That was one of the splits.
33:40SPEAKERSo it used DMI instead of a display manager.
33:44SPEAKERIt had a new interface for the 3D render,
33:46SPEAKERfor the desktop render because of the 3D render desktop,
33:49SPEAKERwhich meant that if you didn't have a good 3D accelerator
33:52SPEAKERthat supported all the right stuff, which as I recall,
33:55SPEAKERthe most common Intel integrated graphics
33:58SPEAKERdidn't support the good render model.
34:00SPEAKERSo it was slow.
34:01SPEAKER- Great.
34:02SPEAKER- Even Windows around was slow.
34:03SPEAKER- Great.
34:05SPEAKER- GDI went away, basically.
34:06SPEAKERIt was still kind of emulated or something,
34:08SPEAKERbut GDI is what was the old-
34:10SPEAKER- The old display, the draw.
34:11SPEAKER- It's what drew Windows from Windows 3.0
34:14SPEAKERon up to Windows Vista.
34:16SPEAKER- Right, right.
34:17SPEAKER- It required a shitload of memory.
34:20SPEAKER- It was a clunker, is what you're saying.
34:21SPEAKER- Yeah, it was-
34:22SPEAKER- It was a lemon.
34:23SPEAKER- Look, it was a 1970s car.
34:25SPEAKER- Okay.
34:26SPEAKER- It was like a '70s Oldsmobile.
34:28SPEAKER- Okay.
34:28SPEAKER- Like it got eight miles to the gallon.
34:31SPEAKERIt had a really big, like nice power steering
34:34SPEAKERand power windows.
34:35SPEAKER- You could kind of make it brute force
34:36SPEAKERwhat you wanted to do if you really stuck with it.
34:39SPEAKER- Yeah, but like not a good car.
34:40SPEAKER- Yeah.
34:41SPEAKER- Like maybe the doors didn't close all the way, right?
34:43SPEAKER- Okay.
34:44SPEAKER- Like if you got the convertible
34:46SPEAKERand you didn't take it through, you washed it by hand,
34:48SPEAKERyou didn't take it through the automatic car wash.
34:50SPEAKER- Okay.
34:51SPEAKER- 'Cause you'd get a shower with your car wash.
34:52SPEAKER- Yeah.
34:53SPEAKER- I'm gonna say, I don't think this is controversial.
34:56SPEAKERI think this is probably the worst version of Windows.
34:58SPEAKER- Okay, yeah.
35:00SPEAKER- Like what's currently, ME is currently at the bottom?
35:02SPEAKER- Yeah, ME is at the bottom.
35:04SPEAKER- ME worked.
35:05SPEAKER- ME works.
35:06SPEAKER- It was fine, it was just unnecessary.
35:07SPEAKERThis was actively bad.
35:08SPEAKER- Yeah.
35:09SPEAKER- And they had to pull features, right?
35:10SPEAKER- Right.
35:11SPEAKER- Like they pulled features that you wanted,
35:14SPEAKERlike the file system stuff.
35:16SPEAKERLike one of the things that people,
35:17SPEAKERlike remember, you used to not be able
35:19SPEAKERto search your hard drive.
35:20SPEAKER- Right, got it.
35:21SPEAKER- Or search the contents.
35:22SPEAKERYou could search for file names.
35:23SPEAKER- Right.
35:24SPEAKER- But not the contents of the files.
35:26SPEAKER- Right, 'cause they weren't indexing anything back then.
35:28SPEAKER- Yeah.
35:29SPEAKER- And so they were gonna put all the files into databases
35:31SPEAKERand make 'em all like XML based stuff
35:33SPEAKERso you could search through it all, like Google.
35:36SPEAKERAnd then they had to pull that,
35:37SPEAKERso then they put an indexer in, searched,
35:39SPEAKERand that ate a bunch of resources and was slow,
35:41SPEAKERand didn't ever give you the thing you were looking for.
35:44SPEAKERThis was bad.
35:45SPEAKER- All right.
35:46SPEAKER- It's a bad OS.
35:47SPEAKER- Boo.
35:48SPEAKER- Down the drain with system.
35:50SPEAKER- It's so bad that they ended extended support
35:52SPEAKERafter only six years.
35:55SPEAKER- Wow.
35:55SPEAKER- They launched in 2007, and they ended extended support,
36:00SPEAKERoh no, 10 years, in 2017.
36:02SPEAKER- 2017.
36:03SPEAKER- Yeah.
36:04SPEAKER- I actually went to some Microsoft event for this thing.
36:06SPEAKERI just got invited, I had a friend that worked at Intel.
36:09SPEAKER- Yeah.
36:09SPEAKER- And the deal was you drag your computer to the South Bay,
36:13SPEAKERyour desktop.
36:14SPEAKER- And they'd install it for you?
36:16SPEAKER- So this was pre-released, this was six months
36:18SPEAKERbefore it came out, maybe a little bit more.
36:21SPEAKERThey wanted a broader base of testing data.
36:24SPEAKERThey wanted more hardware combinations
36:26SPEAKERto generate data from.
36:27SPEAKERSo the deal was, if you drag your computer down
36:30SPEAKERto this Microsoft campus or wherever the event was
36:32SPEAKERin San Jose, let us install whatever version of Vista
36:35SPEAKERwe got on there and run diagnostic and profiling stuff
36:38SPEAKERand gather data, then we will send you a free copy
36:42SPEAKERof Vista Ultimate.
36:43SPEAKER- Wow.
36:44SPEAKER- When it comes out, which is a pretty good deal.
36:46SPEAKER- Yeah, it's just what you wanted.
36:47SPEAKER- Except it was Vista.
36:49SPEAKERI spent like a whole Saturday going to this thing,
36:52SPEAKERand again, they basically overwrote your whatever OS
36:55SPEAKERyou had installed.
36:56SPEAKER- What?
36:57SPEAKER- I think I had gotten to the point
36:58SPEAKERwhere I was like, I need a format anyway.
36:59SPEAKERIf it's bad, I'll just trash it.
37:01SPEAKER- Yeah, this was during a time--
37:03SPEAKER- Like I just, I burned a whole Saturday
37:04SPEAKERto get the ultimate copy of the worst Windows ever made.
37:07SPEAKER- Okay, so here's the one good thing that happened
37:10SPEAKERwith Windows Vista.
37:11SPEAKERIf you had a 64-bit processor,
37:13SPEAKERyou could go above four gigabytes memory.
37:15SPEAKER- Oh.
37:16SPEAKER- So there was a Windows XP 64-bit edition.
37:18SPEAKER- Okay.
37:19SPEAKER- Driver support for it was bad.
37:22SPEAKERIt was not something normal people used.
37:24SPEAKERYou used it if you had some sort of industrial equipment
37:26SPEAKERor something.
37:26SPEAKER- Not a good idea.
37:27SPEAKER- Not a good idea.
37:28SPEAKER- Okay.
37:29SPEAKERVista was the first proper 64-bit?
37:31SPEAKER- Yep, but you wanna know what they did to mess it up?
37:34SPEAKERAlso, this was when netbooks were a thing.
37:36SPEAKERSo you get a netbook with the Windows Vista Starter Edition.
37:39SPEAKEROnly supported a gigabyte of RAM.
37:41SPEAKERSo they siloed RAM support, maximum RAM limits,
37:48SPEAKERby the SKU of Windows you bought.
37:50SPEAKERSo if you bought home basic,
37:51SPEAKERyou could only support up to eight gigs of RAM.
37:53SPEAKERIf you bought home premium, you'd get up to 16 gigs of RAM.
37:56SPEAKER- Holy shit.
37:57SPEAKER- And if you bought business enterprise or ultimate,
37:59SPEAKERyou got 128 gigs of RAM.
38:01SPEAKER- That's insane.
38:02SPEAKER- Yeah.
38:03SPEAKER- Wow.
38:04SPEAKER- Oops.
38:05SPEAKER- Huh, oops.
38:06SPEAKER- Wow, I bet the hardware makers loved that.
38:08SPEAKER- Yeah, they did, it was an upsell, they got a cut.
38:10SPEAKERI mean, in fairness,
38:11SPEAKERI don't think having more than eight gigs or 16 gigs of RAM
38:13SPEAKERwas probably much of a problem for people then.
38:15SPEAKER- No, definitely not.
38:16SPEAKERI mean, that's how much I have now.
38:18SPEAKER- Yeah.
38:18SPEAKER- 13 years later.
38:19SPEAKER- Yeah, but that's terrible.
38:21SPEAKERThat's just ridiculous.
38:21SPEAKER- Oops, oops.
38:23SPEAKERAlso, Windows Vista standard and basic,
38:27SPEAKERI want to say it didn't, like, you didn't get the fancy,
38:30SPEAKERon basic, you didn't get the fancy transit,
38:33SPEAKERthe translucency on the UI.
38:36SPEAKER- Huh.
38:37SPEAKER- It doesn't use DWM.
38:37SPEAKER- Seems like a weird thing to omit, but okay.
38:39SPEAKER- Oh no, sorry, that's the visual styles.
38:41SPEAKERThat's a different thing.
38:42SPEAKERThey just call them the same thing.
38:43SPEAKERAnyway, Vista sucks, move on.
38:45SPEAKER- All right.
38:46SPEAKER- Windows 7.
38:47SPEAKER- Yep, January '07 for Vista.
38:50SPEAKER- Yeah.
38:51SPEAKER- When did, '09 for 7?
38:52SPEAKER- Perfect to your cadence.
38:53SPEAKERJuly 22nd, 2009, RTM.
38:56SPEAKERThat became generally available in October.
38:57SPEAKER- Okay.
38:58SPEAKER- So they hit holiday.
39:00SPEAKER- Wait, late '09?
39:01SPEAKER- '09.
39:02SPEAKER- So it was close to three years.
39:03SPEAKER- Close to three years.
39:04SPEAKER- Okay, that's a long time.
39:05SPEAKERSo, well, like you said, people just kept using XP.
39:07SPEAKER- People just kept using XP, yeah.
39:09SPEAKERThey had to extend the life of XP.
39:11SPEAKER- That's why Service Pack 3 happened.
39:12SPEAKER- That's why Service Pack 3 happened in 2008.
39:13SPEAKER- Okay.
39:15SPEAKER- It was really good.
39:16SPEAKER- Yeah.
39:17SPEAKER- It was fast.
39:17SPEAKER- I feel like I remember 7 out of the box was pretty good.
39:20SPEAKER- Like the unfortunate thing for Vista,
39:23SPEAKERand I'm going to be nice to Vista for a minute here,
39:24SPEAKERso bear with me.
39:25SPEAKERBy the time Windows 7 shipped,
39:27SPEAKERthe driver model had stabilized.
39:29SPEAKERPeople were shipping good drivers.
39:30SPEAKER- Okay.
39:31SPEAKER- Vista was pretty okay.
39:32SPEAKER- Okay.
39:33SPEAKER- It wasn't great.
39:34SPEAKERStill a little clunky.
39:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
39:35SPEAKER- But 7, real fast, real nice, real fancy.
39:39SPEAKER- Do you know if, did 7 pretty much build
39:40SPEAKERon all those core technologies of Vista?
39:42SPEAKERLike did it stick with that driver model?
39:44SPEAKER- Yeah, DMI and all that stuff.
39:45SPEAKERAll the Windows, the X64 driver model.
39:48SPEAKERWindows 7 was X64 default.
39:50SPEAKERSo if you had a, like with Vista,
39:52SPEAKERI think you had to choose 64-bit support.
39:55SPEAKER- One of my questions was if that was a manual opt-in or?
39:58SPEAKER- I think you had to buy a different version even.
40:00SPEAKERI think that was the reason people bought Ultimates
40:02SPEAKER'cause you got 64 and 32.
40:03SPEAKER- Okay.
40:04SPEAKER- Whereas with the basics and the home basics,
40:05SPEAKERyou had to choose which box you got.
40:07SPEAKERI could be wrong on that,
40:08SPEAKERbut I feel like 64-bit choices
40:10SPEAKERwere part of the purchasing process.
40:12SPEAKER- Yeah, I think you're right.
40:12SPEAKER- Whereas with Windows 7, they were both on the disk.
40:15SPEAKER- That sounds-
40:16SPEAKER- It defaulted to 64-bit.
40:18SPEAKER- That sounds right to me.
40:18SPEAKER- And probably you got a thumb drive.
40:20SPEAKERLike I got a thumb drive from Microsoft with Windows 7 on.
40:23SPEAKER- I think I bought,
40:24SPEAKERI remember just straight up buying a copy of Windows 7
40:26SPEAKERand I think it came on CD.
40:28SPEAKER- I mean, you probably could get it on both.
40:30SPEAKER- Or DVD rather.
40:30SPEAKER- It might've been an expensive thumb drive.
40:32SPEAKER2009 thumb drives were pretty big.
40:33SPEAKER- I also, correct me if I'm wrong,
40:35SPEAKERI want to say that was the first version
40:37SPEAKERwhere Windows got like surprisingly cheap.
40:40SPEAKERI'd swear I remember paying like 50 bucks
40:42SPEAKERfor a Windows 7 home or something like that.
40:44SPEAKER- They definitely did that.
40:45SPEAKERThey definitely did deals for Windows 8.
40:47SPEAKERI don't remember on Windows 7.
40:49SPEAKER- I swear I remember thinking like,
40:51SPEAKERbecause before that, like Windows was like what?
40:53SPEAKERA couple hundred dollar proposition in a lot of cases?
40:55SPEAKER- Usually the retail was 200 to $300.
40:58SPEAKER- That's why I was willing to go to that event with Microsoft
41:00SPEAKER'cause I was like, holy shit,
41:01SPEAKERI can get the best version of the next Windows for free.
41:03SPEAKERI'll give up a Saturday for that.
41:04SPEAKER- That ultimate edition thing was a real,
41:06SPEAKERlike they charged you like 250, 300 bucks
41:09SPEAKER'cause basically all of the home,
41:11SPEAKERlike the thing that they changed
41:12SPEAKERwas they took out the home stuff,
41:14SPEAKERthe stuff that you use for home,
41:15SPEAKERlike Movie Maker from the business editions
41:18SPEAKERand they wouldn't let you do a whole disc encryption,
41:21SPEAKERstuff like that on the home version.
41:23SPEAKER- Point being like, especially if you were like
41:25SPEAKERa broke college student or whatever,
41:26SPEAKERlike getting the new Windows was like,
41:28SPEAKERthere was like a pretty high barrier to entry.
41:30SPEAKERAnd I'm pretty sure 7 was the one where I looked at the,
41:32SPEAKERlike the pre-order prices or whatever.
41:34SPEAKERAnd I was like, wait, really?
41:35SPEAKERI can get the new Windows for 50 bucks?
41:37SPEAKERLike, sure, I'll just buy it.
41:39SPEAKERSo like, if that is actually accurate,
41:41SPEAKERthen I feel like that's a pretty big point in 7's favor.
41:44SPEAKER- I can see that.
41:47SPEAKERI'm trying to see what, here's what changed.
41:50SPEAKERFeatures new to Windows 7.
41:52SPEAKERI'm just gonna do this article.
41:53SPEAKERYou got themes on the desktop.
41:55SPEAKER- Okay.
41:56SPEAKER- You got a desktop slideshow, you got gadgets,
41:57SPEAKERwhich were their version of widgets, remember widgets?
42:00SPEAKERYou could get the weather on your desktop
42:01SPEAKERand it would just be embedded in there, it was pretty cool.
42:03SPEAKERIt's a thing people were into.
42:05SPEAKERYou could customize the wallpaper
42:06SPEAKERthat's displayed during user login.
42:08SPEAKERThat was the thing you couldn't do before.
42:10SPEAKER- Exciting.
42:11SPEAKER- That was pretty exciting.
42:12SPEAKERLibraries.
42:13SPEAKERLibraries were the ability to take like,
42:16SPEAKERsay you had two hard drives.
42:18SPEAKERYou could take two hard drives on two different drives,
42:20SPEAKERtwo folders on two different drives that have your pictures
42:23SPEAKERand display them as one big folder.
42:24SPEAKERSo it was kind of like a SimLink, a weird SimLink.
42:27SPEAKER- Yeah, sure.
42:28SPEAKER- It had federated search, so you could add web services
42:30SPEAKERand other stuff to your search,
42:32SPEAKERto like the built-in default Windows search,
42:34SPEAKERwhich was pretty good by that point.
42:35SPEAKERAnd the start menu faded in and out.
42:38SPEAKERSo you got that too.
42:39SPEAKER- Brilliant.
42:40SPEAKER- And it defaulted by linking to the libraries
42:43SPEAKERinstead of the actual folders on your hard drive,
42:45SPEAKERwhich actually is a negative in my eyes.
42:48SPEAKEROh, and the taskbar got rid of the name of the application,
42:50SPEAKERso it was just the icon at that point.
42:51SPEAKER- Oh, yeah, sure.
42:52SPEAKERAnd it saved a lot of space.
42:53SPEAKER- And it did the thing where it previewed the windows
42:55SPEAKERand all that stuff.
42:56SPEAKERYou could do Windows plus tab.
42:57SPEAKER- Oh, peak, arrow peak.
42:59SPEAKER- Arrow peak.
42:59SPEAKER- I believe that's the name of that feature.
43:00SPEAKER- That might have come in Vista, actually,
43:01SPEAKERwhen I think about it.
43:02SPEAKER- Sure.
43:03SPEAKER- It was slow in Vista,
43:04SPEAKERand you could actually use it in Windows XP.
43:05SPEAKER- I mean, that defines seven to me, is--
43:08SPEAKER- Peak.
43:09SPEAKER- No, no, no, no, what you just said about,
43:10SPEAKERlike, it was slow in Vista, it was usable in seven.
43:13SPEAKER- That is pretty much it.
43:14SPEAKER- Like, seven gets a huge boost just by being, like,
43:18SPEAKERthe functional version of what they tried to do before.
43:21SPEAKER- Agreed.
43:22SPEAKERAgain, a lot of it is 'cause the drivers were finally good
43:24SPEAKERby the time people installed seven for the first time.
43:26SPEAKER- Fair.
43:27SPEAKERBut yeah, it was definitely clunky.
43:29SPEAKER- I mean, it's just like a look at every Windows before this
43:31SPEAKERthat had moved to that NT kernel.
43:33SPEAKER- That's true.
43:34SPEAKER- 2000, like, the hardware support was not there.
43:37SPEAKER- Yeah.
43:37SPEAKER- It was just very limited support.
43:38SPEAKERWe had, like, major ups and downs.
43:41SPEAKERVista was a disaster.
43:42SPEAKERSeven was, like, the first one in that whole line
43:44SPEAKERthat was just like, this is good out of the box.
43:46SPEAKERYou can just use this.
43:47SPEAKER- Yeah, it just worked.
43:48SPEAKER- Yeah.
43:49SPEAKER- Yeah.
43:49SPEAKER- Like, I would straight up put seven at the top of the list.
43:51SPEAKER- I think that--
43:52SPEAKER- On that basis alone.
43:53SPEAKER- I'm down with that.
43:53SPEAKERI'm 100% down with that.
43:55SPEAKERIt's probably worth mentioning, we started down this path
43:57SPEAKERbecause Windows 7 end of life, like, two weeks ago.
44:00SPEAKER- Yeah, right.
44:01SPEAKER- Like the 19th of January.
44:02SPEAKER- I remember, maybe this says something about, like,
44:04SPEAKERthe forums I read and stuff, but I remember seeing people,
44:06SPEAKERlike, not exactly freaking out, but just going like,
44:08SPEAKERoh, well, okay.
44:10SPEAKER- Mournful.
44:11SPEAKERI mean, I almost rolled back to Windows.
44:13SPEAKERHad I not started VR development when I did,
44:14SPEAKERI probably would have rolled back to Windows 7 after,
44:18SPEAKER'cause I, from early Windows 10.
44:21SPEAKERFirst couple of versions of Windows 10 were pretty rough.
44:23SPEAKER- Oh, wow.
44:24SPEAKEROkay, well, we'll get there.
44:25SPEAKER- Yeah.
44:26SPEAKER- I just, I feel like seven is around the time
44:27SPEAKERthat I stopped thinking about Windows so much.
44:31SPEAKERDoes that make sense?
44:32SPEAKER- Yeah.
44:32SPEAKER- Like, it worked well enough in most aspects
44:34SPEAKERthat you just kind of could ignore it
44:36SPEAKERand just do what you needed to do.
44:37SPEAKERThat's what I'm getting at.
44:38SPEAKER- Yeah, it got out of your way.
44:39SPEAKER- Yes.
44:40SPEAKER- That's exactly right.
44:40SPEAKER- That is the right way to put it.
44:41SPEAKERLike, seven was the first version of Windows
44:42SPEAKERthat just got out of your way
44:43SPEAKERand let you just use your damn computer.
44:45SPEAKER- Well, and they also did,
44:46SPEAKERthey also added, like, multi-desktop support.
44:48SPEAKER- Okay.
44:49SPEAKER- So you have virtual desktops.
44:50SPEAKERThat might've been invested, too,
44:51SPEAKERbut probably too slow to use.
44:53SPEAKERThey added, like, they stole some of the good things
44:56SPEAKERfrom OS X, like dragging the window to the top of the screen
44:58SPEAKERand making it maximized, moving it off to the right,
45:01SPEAKERand it taking up half the screen and all that stuff.
45:04SPEAKER- They added a bunch of Windows key shortcuts,
45:06SPEAKERmaking the Windows key useful for once.
45:08SPEAKERSo, like, that's where Windows key plus P
45:11SPEAKERto switch displays. - Okay, yeah,
45:12SPEAKERto switch display output.
45:13SPEAKER- And all of that stuff came in.
45:15SPEAKER- Window X for a command prompt.
45:17SPEAKER- Yeah.
45:18SPEAKER- Window L to lock.
45:19SPEAKER- Windows X for a command prompt might've been there for,
45:22SPEAKERI think X and L were around for a while before that.
45:24SPEAKERThey're not on this list.
45:25SPEAKER- I mean, for years, the Windows key
45:27SPEAKERwas just the start menu key to me
45:29SPEAKERuntil I actually learned all that stuff.
45:30SPEAKER- Well, I mean, that's very useful.
45:32SPEAKERI hit the start menu and then type the thing
45:34SPEAKERthat I'm looking for. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
45:35SPEAKER- Yeah, but it does a lot of stuff now.
45:36SPEAKERLike, I would argue the Windows key tab
45:38SPEAKERis more useful than alt-tab.
45:40SPEAKER- Yes, absolutely.
45:41SPEAKER- Stuff like that, but anyway.
45:42SPEAKER- Although alt-tab is now the same as Windows key, anyway.
45:44SPEAKER- No, they're different. - Really?
45:45SPEAKER- Well, if you run multi-monitor, they're different.
45:47SPEAKER- Oh, yeah, I don't run multi-monitor.
45:49SPEAKER- Because if you forget two monitors,
45:50SPEAKERthen window tab breaks the windows out
45:52SPEAKERby which monitor they're on.
45:54SPEAKER- Added multi-touch support, too, for a tablet team.
45:57SPEAKER- Okay. - Yeah, that's it.
45:58SPEAKER- I would put seven at the top of the list.
46:00SPEAKER- I've already done it, I'm there.
46:02SPEAKER- It is like the first truly good version
46:04SPEAKERof Windows in my mind.
46:05SPEAKERLike, thinking back over the long history,
46:08SPEAKERit only took them seven tries.
46:09SPEAKER- Well, there were good Windows before that,
46:11SPEAKERbut it was the one that, like, out of the box was good.
46:13SPEAKER- That's what I remember, like, without reservation,
46:16SPEAKERyou could say this is good.
46:17SPEAKER- Yeah. - Like, without caveat.
46:19SPEAKER- So now you can fast forward three short years.
46:21SPEAKERIt's October 2012.
46:24SPEAKER- God, really?
46:24SPEAKERDo they get to date that fast?
46:26SPEAKER- Yeah. - Well, like, you know.
46:28SPEAKER- Like, I guess maybe I'm, maybe I am-
46:30SPEAKER- I moved from the world of print to the web
46:32SPEAKERduring this timeframe.
46:33SPEAKERThat's a big three years for me.
46:35SPEAKER- I don't know, I guess I'm in such a different mindset now
46:37SPEAKERabout operating systems, which is, like,
46:39SPEAKERif it works, then just leave it alone.
46:41SPEAKER- Yeah. - So to me,
46:42SPEAKERthinking back on that as, like, wow,
46:44SPEAKERyou got it really right with seven,
46:45SPEAKERand then you, like, rushed into making another version
46:48SPEAKERof Windows that was not good.
46:50SPEAKER- The other thing about seven that's really good
46:52SPEAKERis it's the first one that I went for,
46:54SPEAKERwas able to go for a long time
46:55SPEAKERwithout having to reformat constantly.
46:57SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, that's the kind of stuff I mean.
46:58SPEAKERLike, I probably used that default install of Windows 7
47:02SPEAKERuntil we started and tested, so it was, like, two years.
47:06SPEAKER- Totally, like, my reformat schedule
47:09SPEAKERwent from months to years around that time.
47:11SPEAKER- Yeah. - 'Cause I remember,
47:12SPEAKERback in the day, you would reinstall Windows,
47:14SPEAKERlike, what, two, three times a year sometimes?
47:16SPEAKER- Basically, anytime something went
47:18SPEAKEReven the slightest bit wrong. - Yes.
47:19SPEAKERIf the things went bad enough. - Reinstall Windows.
47:21SPEAKER- Like, the easiest, like, rather than try to figure it out,
47:23SPEAKERlike, it was easier to just format.
47:24SPEAKER- Okay, so here's a question for you.
47:26SPEAKER- Okay. - Are Windows 8
47:27SPEAKERand Windows 8.1 the same OS?
47:30SPEAKER- Ooh.
47:31SPEAKER- You wanna know what the differences are?
47:33SPEAKER- I remember it was some big interface thing, right?
47:35SPEAKER- Yeah, Windows 8-- - Did they pull out
47:36SPEAKERsome of the tablet crap?
47:37SPEAKER- Yeah, they rolled back.
47:38SPEAKERSo Windows 8.1, you didn't have to--
47:42SPEAKER- Like, did you get the start menu back?
47:43SPEAKERLike, that's the big question.
47:44SPEAKER- You got the start menu back.
47:44SPEAKER- I mean, that's the thing.
47:46SPEAKER- Yeah, that was the big one.
47:47SPEAKER- Oh my God, I completely suppressed
47:49SPEAKERall memory of Windows 8.
47:50SPEAKER- Yeah, the start screen.
47:51SPEAKER- The start screen, oh my God, that was horrible.
47:54SPEAKERHow did that make it to production?
47:56SPEAKER- Well, tablets were the future.
47:58SPEAKER- Well, of course, but like, how do you not leave behind
48:00SPEAKERthe vast, vast bulk of your legacy customers?
48:03SPEAKER- Look, everybody's gonna go out and buy new PCs.
48:04SPEAKERThat's what they do every time
48:05SPEAKERa new version of Windows comes out, Brad.
48:06SPEAKERIt's not gonna be a problem.
48:07SPEAKERThey're just gonna get touchscreen PCs,
48:09SPEAKERwhich are not actually on the market yet,
48:10SPEAKERbut I'm sure it's gonna happen.
48:12SPEAKERAnd also, fuck desktop people.
48:15SPEAKERThere are a lot of podcasts about me yelling about this.
48:18SPEAKERThis was, like, this is one of those ones
48:21SPEAKERthat they stopped inviting me to the preview about
48:23SPEAKER'cause I started asking questions.
48:24SPEAKER- They got blacklisted? - I didn't get blacklisted,
48:26SPEAKERbut I think they got tired of me asking dumb questions.
48:29SPEAKERIt's like, hey, does anybody here think this is a good idea?
48:33SPEAKERAt one point, I was in one of those, like,
48:34SPEAKERit was one of those casual roundtables,
48:37SPEAKERand I was sitting there, I was like,
48:38SPEAKERlook at how much I have to move the mouse
48:39SPEAKERto launch an application.
48:42SPEAKER- That's amazing.
48:43SPEAKER- Okay, so if you don't know what Windows 8 did,
48:45SPEAKERthey replaced the start menu, which was a tight,
48:47SPEAKERlike, bottom quarter to eighth of your monitor,
48:51SPEAKERwhere you could, like, launch your apps,
48:53SPEAKERlaunch the, do the thing that you need the BZ for.
48:57SPEAKERAnd they replaced it with a thing
48:59SPEAKERthat takes over the whole screen,
49:01SPEAKERhas, instead of having, like, 32 by 32 pixel icons.
49:04SPEAKER- Nice little efficient use of space.
49:06SPEAKER- Like, 200 by 200 squares.
49:08SPEAKER- Yeah, like massive tiles.
49:09SPEAKERWas this around the time of, like,
49:10SPEAKERWindows Phone and the Metro design?
49:12SPEAKER- This is Metro. - This was Metro design,
49:14SPEAKERand, like, big, big, and I like, I kinda like the--
49:16SPEAKER- They did it on the Xbox, too.
49:17SPEAKER- I kinda like the look of some of that stuff.
49:18SPEAKERI feel like it's kinda clean.
49:19SPEAKER- It looked great. - Right, but it's--
49:20SPEAKER- But not usable at all.
49:22SPEAKER- Hijacking your entire monitor every time
49:23SPEAKERyou wanted a launch program, like, come on.
49:25SPEAKER- Well, and worse than that,
49:26SPEAKERthere was, like, a multiple frame delay
49:28SPEAKERwhile it loaded the start screen
49:29SPEAKERevery time you hit the Windows key.
49:31SPEAKER- Yeah. - So you'd click it,
49:32SPEAKERand then, in the old days,
49:33SPEAKERthe start menu would just be there.
49:35SPEAKERIt would just, like, three frames.
49:36SPEAKER- Can I ask real quick, are you one of the people
49:38SPEAKERwho will go into, I forget what the exact dialogue is called.
49:42SPEAKERIt's a legacy dialogue, it's been there for--
49:44SPEAKER- I don't take out the transitions,
49:45SPEAKERif that's what you're asking. - I turn off every animation,
49:47SPEAKERevery window transition and animation.
49:49SPEAKER- I like a good animation.
49:50SPEAKER- Yeah, I just want, when I minimize a window,
49:52SPEAKERI want in one frame for it to disappear.
49:54SPEAKER- I'm gonna make you really sad.
49:55SPEAKERYou know, on OS X, you know,
49:57SPEAKERwhen you minimize an application,
49:58SPEAKERyou have the option to do, like,
49:59SPEAKERthree or four different effects when you minimize.
50:01SPEAKER- Yeah. - I do the genie one.
50:03SPEAKER- I don't minimize on OS X. - What?
50:06SPEAKER- I map, I got a little third-party app
50:08SPEAKERthat you can bind key combos to mouse buttons.
50:11SPEAKER- Okay. - And I bound
50:12SPEAKERone of my extra mouse buttons to Command + H.
50:14SPEAKER- Which kills it? - No, it's hide.
50:16SPEAKER- Oh, hide. - I mean, it hides
50:17SPEAKERevery window associated with that.
50:19SPEAKER'Cause, you know, the OS X model,
50:21SPEAKERwhich I think is superior to Windows, probably,
50:22SPEAKERis to group all windows by application.
50:24SPEAKER- Well, they did that starting with Windows 7.
50:26SPEAKER- Well, kind of, but you still can't,
50:28SPEAKERthere's no minimize every window associated
50:29SPEAKERwith this process in Windows.
50:31SPEAKER- You could do arrow shake,
50:32SPEAKERwhere you take the window you want and shake it.
50:33SPEAKER- I'm not shaking. - And then all the other ones
50:35SPEAKERgo away. - I refuse to shake.
50:36SPEAKER- Oh, man, arrow shake's really good stuff.
50:38SPEAKERWindows 8, Wikipedia says Windows 8 was released
50:41SPEAKERto a mixed critical reception. - Yeah.
50:44SPEAKER- Let me ask, well, I don't know
50:45SPEAKERif it's too early to ask this.
50:47SPEAKER- Worse reception, Vista or 8? - Vista.
50:49SPEAKER- You think so? - Okay.
50:50SPEAKER- Hmm. - Like, Vista was bad
50:52SPEAKERon the technology end. - Vista was slow and shitty.
50:55SPEAKER- 8 was bad on the interface end.
50:56SPEAKER- 8 was not good to use.
50:58SPEAKERMan, that's tough. - Yeah.
50:59SPEAKER- I think Vista got worse reviews.
51:01SPEAKER- Okay. - I definitely gave Vista worse,
51:03SPEAKERI didn't, I probably, I was attested,
51:04SPEAKERso I wouldn't have given a number to 8,
51:06SPEAKERso there's no way for me to quantify
51:07SPEAKERwhether 8 was worse than Vista.
51:08SPEAKERIt's impossible. - I guess bad interface,
51:09SPEAKERyou couldn't find ways to work around.
51:11SPEAKERBut if the actual core of the operating system is broken,
51:15SPEAKERthen fuck everything. - Stardock made bank
51:17SPEAKERselling a put your start menu back
51:19SPEAKERon Windows 8 application. - Sure, I bet.
51:21SPEAKER- A year later, in October 2013,
51:23SPEAKERthey released 8.1, which brought the start menu back.
51:25SPEAKER- Yeah, I feel like I remember
51:27SPEAKERit still wasn't quite what you wanted.
51:28SPEAKER- Here's the thing that was great, I forgot about this.
51:31SPEAKEROn Windows 8, the desktop was an app.
51:35SPEAKERSo the desktop ran, it launched
51:37SPEAKERthe Windows Unified app model thing.
51:39SPEAKERThe thing that was like, hey, you can write one application
51:42SPEAKERon your Windows PC, or on your Windows phone,
51:45SPEAKERor on the Xbox, you'll be able to do it everywhere.
51:47SPEAKEROne application on all machines.
51:49SPEAKERIt's gonna be great, guys.
51:51SPEAKERAnd also, the only way you're gonna be able to get them
51:53SPEAKERis through the Windows Store,
51:54SPEAKERwhere you're gonna have to log in with a Microsoft account
51:56SPEAKERand you'll be able to charge money for the applications
51:58SPEAKERthat everybody just expects to be free now.
52:00SPEAKER- You don't sound at all bitter
52:01SPEAKERor like you're speaking from experience.
52:03SPEAKER- And Windows users, they're like, just to be clear,
52:06SPEAKERMicrosoft watched Apple do this with OS X
52:08SPEAKERand the Mac App Store, and they were like,
52:10SPEAKER"Shit, we can do this too, we can make a lot of money."
52:13SPEAKERAnd then it didn't work at all.
52:17SPEAKERAnd the difference is, instead of saying,
52:19SPEAKER"Hey, we're gonna have an API
52:21SPEAKERthat lets us hook into the store
52:23SPEAKERand sell apps on the store," they said,
52:26SPEAKER"Hey, we're gonna write this new, extremely limited API
52:28SPEAKERthat only lets apps run in full screen."
52:31SPEAKERRemember that, 'cause that's it.
52:33SPEAKERThey only let apps run in full screen.
52:34SPEAKER- Oh my God.
52:35SPEAKER- It's like they saw the iPad and missed the point entirely.
52:39SPEAKER- This sounds worse and worse, the more you talk about it.
52:41SPEAKER- The more I think about it,
52:41SPEAKERthe angrier I'm getting, just to be clear.
52:43SPEAKER- I think you're maybe making a case
52:45SPEAKERfor Windows 8 at the bottom of this list.
52:47SPEAKER- I'm feeling pretty good about that.
52:48SPEAKERSo yeah, like-
52:50SPEAKER- I thought for sure Vista was a shoo-in for that spot,
52:52SPEAKERbut huh.
52:53SPEAKER- The name of the operating system is Windows,
52:55SPEAKERand the whole point was you could run two applications
52:57SPEAKERat the same time, and then they were like,
52:59SPEAKER"Nope, big old middle finger to two windows
53:01SPEAKERat the same time."
53:02SPEAKER- Wow, huh.
53:03SPEAKERAlso, I mean, this philosophy even bled into parts
53:06SPEAKERof like the control panel and stuff like that,
53:08SPEAKERlike even like system dialogues.
53:10SPEAKER- Everything.
53:11SPEAKER- Started being replaced.
53:11SPEAKER- Everything was full screen.
53:12SPEAKER- Yeah, wow.
53:13SPEAKER- Just to be clear, they replaced
53:14SPEAKERthe old perfectly functional control panel with a new one,
53:18SPEAKERand it's still, they still haven't merged
53:20SPEAKERthose two things together.
53:21SPEAKERWe still have both of them.
53:22SPEAKER- As much as I generally like Windows 10 now,
53:24SPEAKERlike it's still stuck with some of the crappy legacy aspects
53:27SPEAKERof Windows 8.
53:28SPEAKER- Yeah, well, so they built this new app model,
53:31SPEAKERthis new API, and made the thing
53:34SPEAKERthat Windows was good at bad.
53:36SPEAKER- Right.
53:37SPEAKER- Which fundamentally undermined
53:38SPEAKERthe underpinnings of Windows.
53:40SPEAKER- So I feel like maybe the strongest argument
53:43SPEAKERfor Windows 8 at the bottom of this list
53:44SPEAKERis that it was such an incredibly powerful self-own.
53:48SPEAKER- Yeah.
53:48SPEAKER- Coming out of Windows 7, which we have just established
53:51SPEAKERthat Windows 7 was the best Windows ever.
53:52SPEAKER- Yeah, the best of the best.
53:53SPEAKER- And they literally went from the best Windows
53:55SPEAKERto arguably the worst.
53:56SPEAKER- I'm gonna put this down here tentatively.
53:59SPEAKER- And it was a completely unforced error.
54:01SPEAKERThat was completely an error in judgment.
54:03SPEAKER- How are we worried we're gonna have the,
54:05SPEAKERit was just a list of reverse chronological order list here.
54:08SPEAKER- Like Vista had obvious development problems.
54:10SPEAKERLike it was clearly stuck in like development hell.
54:13SPEAKER- Yeah, well, yeah.
54:13SPEAKER- Like they couldn't bring it together.
54:15SPEAKER- Look, they made some assumptions
54:16SPEAKERthat turned out to not be right.
54:17SPEAKERAnd by the time they were,
54:19SPEAKERand then they had to restart twice.
54:21SPEAKER- Whereas by every indication,
54:23SPEAKERWindows 8 is exactly the product they set out to make.
54:26SPEAKER- All they had to do with Windows 8
54:27SPEAKERwas like to make Windows 8 good,
54:29SPEAKERall they had to do was have desktop mode and tablet mode.
54:33SPEAKERThat's it.
54:34SPEAKER- Wow.
54:34SPEAKER- And Windows 8 has to be at the bottom of the list.
54:36SPEAKER- I'm a hundred percent with you.
54:37SPEAKERLike that Metro UI was such a failure
54:41SPEAKERthat they stopped making the phones.
54:42SPEAKER- Yeah.
54:43SPEAKER- They stopped using them on the Xbox.
54:45SPEAKER- I liked those phones.
54:46SPEAKER- They don't use Metro on the Xbox anymore, do they?
54:47SPEAKER- Not really, it's not, no, not really, no.
54:50SPEAKER- Yeah.
54:50SPEAKER- The tiles look kind of,
54:51SPEAKERare kind of descended from that look,
54:52SPEAKERbut it's not quite the same thing.
54:54SPEAKER- Yeah, this is a terrible OS.
54:56SPEAKER- Yeah, like they thought it was a good idea.
54:58SPEAKER- They were excited about it.
54:59SPEAKER- That's what I'm getting at is like Vista,
55:02SPEAKERI'm sure they knew could have been better.
55:03SPEAKERI went to an app over on Potrero Hill
55:07SPEAKERor off Potrero in like Utah in the state street names
55:11SPEAKERwhere they were like,
55:12SPEAKER"Guys, we want to talk to you about Metro.
55:14SPEAKERMetro apps, this is going to be the next big thing.
55:17SPEAKERIt's going to be huge."
55:18SPEAKERAnd I went up to the person afterwards.
55:20SPEAKERI was like, "Hey, why were all the apps full screen?"
55:23SPEAKERAnd they were like,
55:24SPEAKER"We're not talking about that right now."
55:25SPEAKER- Wow.
55:27SPEAKER- And yeah, I was like,
55:28SPEAKER"Can you drag stuff from one app to the apps?
55:30SPEAKERWe're not talking about that now."
55:32SPEAKERWhere's the menu bar?
55:33SPEAKERHow do I print?
55:34SPEAKERWe're not talking about that.
55:36SPEAKERThere'll be a share sheet for that.
55:37SPEAKERAnd I was like, "What the fuck is a share sheet?"
55:39SPEAKER- The fact that they did this to themselves,
55:41SPEAKERI feel like pushes this to the very bottom.
55:43SPEAKER- I think it's also the first one that integrated Bing,
55:46SPEAKERbut I'm not sure about that.
55:48SPEAKERSo.
55:49SPEAKER- I'll let that one slide.
55:50SPEAKER- Yeah, Bing, least of its crimes.
55:53SPEAKER- I think eight may have been the same situation as Vista
55:55SPEAKERwhere I used it for a little while.
55:57SPEAKERAnd I was like, "You know what?
55:57SPEAKERI'm just going to reinstall seven."
55:59SPEAKER- Yeah, that seems right.
56:00SPEAKER- Like I think that's what I ended up doing there.
56:01SPEAKER- When I remember you guys asked me,
56:03SPEAKERshould we install Windows 8?
56:04SPEAKER'Cause they were giving it away for a little while.
56:05SPEAKER- Yes, I think somehow I got a copy from Microsoft of that.
56:09SPEAKER- Yeah, like if you had a live Windows 7,
56:10SPEAKERno, if you had a live Windows 7 key,
56:12SPEAKERmaybe that's what it was.
56:13SPEAKER- You could upgrade to eight on the spot
56:14SPEAKER'cause they wanted people on Metro
56:15SPEAKER'cause they were going to make all their money
56:16SPEAKERby selling apps.
56:17SPEAKER- You're right, that's what it was.
56:18SPEAKER- And I was like, "No, don't, don't, don't."
56:21SPEAKER- Wait, does that mean that I invalidated my Windows 7 key
56:23SPEAKERby turning it into a Windows 8 key?
56:25SPEAKER- If you installed Windows 8, you probably did.
56:26SPEAKERYou can install Windows 8 as trial ware too.
56:29SPEAKER- Oh, maybe I did that.
56:30SPEAKERSo this is, Windows 7, I think, was the first one
56:33SPEAKERthat they were like, they were confident enough
56:34SPEAKERin their activation stuff.
56:35SPEAKERJust to be clear, Windows 98 was the first one
56:38SPEAKERthat introduced activation or OSR2 was,
56:41SPEAKERwhich probably is a bump it down, anyway.
56:45SPEAKERSo they added, you could install Windows
56:51SPEAKERwithout having the key on you.
56:53SPEAKERSo you weren't hosed if you lost your sticker or whatever.
56:56SPEAKERYou could install it and then could deal with the key later,
56:58SPEAKERwhich is a good thing.
56:59SPEAKER- Yeah, I feel like, I'm trying to figure out
57:02SPEAKERwhat the user interface tweak was at 8.1.
57:04SPEAKERI actually used this the whole time,
57:06SPEAKERbut I think that they made the desktop not a Windows app.
57:09SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't remember much about 8.1,
57:11SPEAKERbut I think I did move to it once it gave me
57:14SPEAKERa start menu again.
57:15SPEAKER- And they put the, no, no.
57:17SPEAKERYou know what, they just put the start button back.
57:19SPEAKERThat was the only thing.
57:21SPEAKER- Well, you weren't opening a full screen,
57:23SPEAKERstart screen anymore, right?
57:25SPEAKER- God, I forgot.
57:26SPEAKER- I can't remember.
57:27SPEAKER- Windows 8, yeah, I think you still had
57:29SPEAKERthe start screen on 8.1.
57:32SPEAKERThey don't say anything about putting the start menu back.
57:35SPEAKERI think with the start menu, you came back with Windows 10.
57:38SPEAKERI think when, I think what they did
57:41SPEAKERwas they put the start button back on the taskbar
57:44SPEAKERbecause before to open the start menu
57:47SPEAKERon a desktop machine that didn't have a button
57:48SPEAKERon the monitor to press to open the start menu,
57:51SPEAKERstart screen, you had to just click on nothing
57:54SPEAKERin the lower left corner of the screen.
57:56SPEAKER- I think you're totally right.
57:57SPEAKER- The vast majority of computers running desktop
57:59SPEAKERor mobile Windows, Windows 10, Windows 8.
58:02SPEAKER- I think that is totally right.
58:03SPEAKER- Oh my God, what a shit show.
58:04SPEAKER- Yeah, that's bad.
58:05SPEAKER- Okay, Windows 8, definitely bottom of the list.
58:07SPEAKER- Yeah.
58:08SPEAKER- I don't think 8.1 should be, I don't think we should,
58:10SPEAKERI don't think we should distinguish 8.1
58:12SPEAKERby putting it one notch above.
58:14SPEAKER- No, I think it's all.
58:15SPEAKER- I think it's all bundled up in one.
58:17SPEAKER- It's a complete wash.
58:18SPEAKER- This brings us to Windows 10.
58:19SPEAKER- Okay.
58:20SPEAKER- Of which we've now had like six major releases, I think.
58:22SPEAKER- Yeah.
58:23SPEAKER- Eight major releases.
58:24SPEAKER- Came out, what, 2015 or 16, something like that,
58:26SPEAKERI'm gonna guess.
58:26SPEAKER- Windows 10 was released in July of 2015, yes.
58:29SPEAKER- Wow, it's been with us for a while.
58:31SPEAKER- Also the fastest time from RTM to release,
58:36SPEAKERI think, of all of these 'cause it RTM'd on July 15th
58:39SPEAKERand you could buy it for sale
58:40SPEAKER'cause it was a download on the 29th.
58:42SPEAKER- Yeah, I will say, I don't know when this happened.
58:44SPEAKERI don't know if this is strictly a Windows 10 thing
58:46SPEAKERor maybe 8 was doing it too,
58:47SPEAKERbut their, granted technology just moved this way,
58:50SPEAKERbut their willingness to just let you download
58:52SPEAKERand make an installer.
58:53SPEAKER- So that's the thing I'm talking about.
58:55SPEAKERThat happened with Windows 7.
58:56SPEAKER- Oh, it did.
58:57SPEAKER- You could download the installers.
58:58SPEAKER- Oh, when you mentioned USB stick,
59:00SPEAKERI thought you were saying they distributed,
59:01SPEAKERthey sold USB sticks with it.
59:02SPEAKER- Well, they did.
59:03SPEAKER- Okay.
59:04SPEAKER- But I think they also had-
59:05SPEAKER- Oh, have they been letting you do it for that long?
59:06SPEAKER- So you could download an ISO all the way for a long time,
59:09SPEAKERbut then you had to know how to burn an ISO onto a CD-ROM
59:12SPEAKERor onto a thumb drive.
59:13SPEAKER- Right.
59:14SPEAKER- It was a little bit of a process.
59:15SPEAKERNow it's just a-
59:15SPEAKER- The media creation tools?
59:16SPEAKER- Yeah, that thing's awesome.
59:18SPEAKER- Yeah, it's great.
59:19SPEAKER- So-
59:20SPEAKER- Also the speed of installing Windows,
59:22SPEAKERespecially in the age of like USB 3 and NVME drives
59:25SPEAKERand stuff like that.
59:26SPEAKER- It's insane.
59:27SPEAKERLike you can have a functional Windows install
59:29SPEAKERin like five minutes now.
59:31SPEAKER- It is very nice.
59:32SPEAKER- It's really cool.
59:33SPEAKER- They provided a free upgrade for this.
59:36SPEAKER- Okay, from eight to 10?
59:37SPEAKER- Yeah, they kind of forced you to upgrade from eight.
59:39SPEAKER- Okay.
59:40SPEAKER- Which was a kindness, I think,
59:41SPEAKERbut people were upset about that, I'm sure.
59:42SPEAKER- Yeah.
59:43SPEAKER- They've released, I'm trying to figure out
59:45SPEAKERhow many releases we've had at this point.
59:47SPEAKER- Yeah.
59:48SPEAKER- People weren't super keen on it.
59:50SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't remember the initial impression very well.
59:53SPEAKER- It was a little up and down.
59:55SPEAKERPeople were like rolling back on this other stuff
59:57SPEAKERand it was a little, the driver model changed a little bit,
1:00:00SPEAKERso it was a little bit unstable, but it was fine.
1:00:03SPEAKER- It had a start menu out of the box, right?
1:00:04SPEAKER- Start menu out of the box, yes.
1:00:06SPEAKER- Okay.
1:00:06SPEAKER- It rolled back to desktop.
1:00:09SPEAKERIf you were on a desktop machine,
1:00:10SPEAKERyou got the desktop UI that you were accustomed to.
1:00:12SPEAKERIt was square and had tiles and all that stuff,
1:00:14SPEAKERwhich it still has.
1:00:15SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:00:16SPEAKER- But for the most part, it looked like Windows.
1:00:18SPEAKERIt looks like, I'm looking for releases,
1:00:21SPEAKERthe initial release, and then they had
1:00:25SPEAKERpretty much releases every six months with a few skips.
1:00:27SPEAKER- They've kind of gone to like this OS X model, right?
1:00:29SPEAKEROf like Windows 10 is just the Windows for now on.
1:00:32SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:00:33SPEAKER- For a very long time.
1:00:34SPEAKER- That is the model, yes.
1:00:35SPEAKER- Probably another five years or something.
1:00:37SPEAKER- I would say it may continue being the current model
1:00:41SPEAKERfor the future, yeah.
1:00:43SPEAKER- The Windows of Record.
1:00:44SPEAKER- I mean, the version numbers are basically
1:00:45SPEAKERjust the year and the month.
1:00:46SPEAKER- Right.
1:00:47SPEAKER- So it's like 1809, 18, 1904, or whatever.
1:00:50SPEAKER- 1903.
1:00:51SPEAKER- And colloquially, they refer to them as like
1:00:54SPEAKERthe what's, I'm trying to think, like the spring update.
1:00:59SPEAKER- Oh yeah, it's usually--
1:01:00SPEAKER- Like the way they message them to users,
1:01:01SPEAKERit's like, oh, it's the Windows 10 spring update.
1:01:03SPEAKERI think they've changed that.
1:01:04SPEAKERI forget how they're doing that.
1:01:05SPEAKER- Well, so they called them creators update for a while.
1:01:07SPEAKERThey've tried a bunch of different names.
1:01:08SPEAKER- Right, like the naming scheme keeps changing
1:01:10SPEAKERin some confusing ways.
1:01:11SPEAKER- This article's really long, here we go.
1:01:12SPEAKERYeah, so the first one was the November update.
1:01:15SPEAKERThat was the one in 2015 in November, obviously.
1:01:19SPEAKERThen the anniversary update the next summer.
1:01:21SPEAKER- Right, so yeah, the names were kind of all over the place.
1:01:23SPEAKERIt's been a little hard to keep track of that stuff.
1:01:24SPEAKERThen the creators update, then the fall creators update,
1:01:28SPEAKERwhich was an update to the creators update.
1:01:30SPEAKERThen the April 2018 update,
1:01:31SPEAKERwhich unsurprisingly shipped in March of 2018.
1:01:36SPEAKEROh, no, no, I'm sorry, it was not.
1:01:38SPEAKERIt was supposed to ship in March of 2018
1:01:39SPEAKERand ended up shipping on May 8th.
1:01:42SPEAKERSo with an initial manual download on April 30th.
1:01:46SPEAKER- Yeah, they've messed up a couple of these updates.
1:01:48SPEAKERThere was one that they recalled, I think, or rolled back.
1:01:50SPEAKER- Yeah, that was October 1903.
1:01:53SPEAKER- Yeah, this was in the last year or two.
1:01:55SPEAKER- Yeah, so October 2018, May 2019, November 2019,
1:01:59SPEAKERand that's where we are right now.
1:02:00SPEAKERSo one, two, three, four, five,
1:02:03SPEAKERsix, seven, eight major updates.
1:02:07SPEAKER- So what is the arc of Windows 10 in your mind?
1:02:09SPEAKER- So the arc is that it shipped,
1:02:10SPEAKERit was better than Windows 8 on launch, no doubt.
1:02:14SPEAKER- Probably not hard.
1:02:15SPEAKER- Just 'cause it had a start menu, that's all they needed.
1:02:19SPEAKERI feel like Windows 10's pretty good.
1:02:21SPEAKERLike the six month to year cadence for minor,
1:02:26SPEAKERI guess they're major updates,
1:02:29SPEAKERlets them move more nimbly for new hardware
1:02:31SPEAKERand stuff like that.
1:02:32SPEAKERSo when VR support came on, that stuff was supported
1:02:35SPEAKERpretty much the moment you could get a headset.
1:02:38SPEAKERNVMe support was really, really quick.
1:02:42SPEAKERI love that they do the different channels,
1:02:45SPEAKERthe same way they do in the Xbox,
1:02:46SPEAKERwhere you can subscribe to an insider build
1:02:48SPEAKERand get betas if you wanna try stuff.
1:02:50SPEAKER- Yeah, that's cool.
1:02:50SPEAKERDid somebody just opt into that?
1:02:52SPEAKER- If you, and for a long time,
1:02:54SPEAKERI don't know if this is still the case,
1:02:55SPEAKERfor a long time, if you were on one of the insider rings,
1:02:57SPEAKERyou didn't even have to have a paid key.
1:02:58SPEAKERYou could just be a beta tester and they were like,
1:03:01SPEAKERthanks for your support.
1:03:02SPEAKER- And your telemetry.
1:03:04SPEAKER- Yeah, and your telemetry.
1:03:05SPEAKERAnd as a result, now when Windows update says,
1:03:09SPEAKERhey, you're ready, a new version of Windows
1:03:12SPEAKERdoesn't come out on the same day for everyone.
1:03:14SPEAKERLike if your machine and my machine
1:03:15SPEAKERhave different hardware in them,
1:03:17SPEAKERwe'll get them when they're pretty confident
1:03:19SPEAKERthat the hardware in our machines will work.
1:03:20SPEAKER- So I came to realize that I know people that will,
1:03:23SPEAKER'cause there are ways to force the update,
1:03:25SPEAKERand I know people who will just very aggressively be like,
1:03:27SPEAKERwell, fuck that, I'm not gonna wait.
1:03:29SPEAKERI think there's a perception from a lot of people
1:03:31SPEAKERthat they're just trying to, I don't know,
1:03:33SPEAKERminimize bandwidth usage or reduce load is what I mean.
1:03:36SPEAKERI'm not giving it to everybody at the same time,
1:03:38SPEAKERbut yeah, I came to realize it's like,
1:03:40SPEAKERoh, they're not pushing this update to me
1:03:41SPEAKERbecause there's something about my system
1:03:43SPEAKERthat is not going to go well if I install it.
1:03:45SPEAKER- That's exactly it.
1:03:46SPEAKER- So I have very much started following there
1:03:48SPEAKERor waiting for it to come down.
1:03:49SPEAKER- Well, and there's things that push you into a higher tier.
1:03:52SPEAKERLike if you go in and manually press Windows Update
1:03:55SPEAKERto manually download security patches at some point,
1:03:57SPEAKERthat's something that they take as a sign
1:03:59SPEAKERthat you're interested in taking stuff a little bit faster.
1:04:01SPEAKER- Interesting.
1:04:02SPEAKER- But like, yeah, if you have like a capture card
1:04:04SPEAKERor something, some novel hardware in your machine,
1:04:06SPEAKERthen they'll wait until enough people
1:04:09SPEAKERin the insider ring have tried it
1:04:10SPEAKERthat they feel like it's gonna work successfully for you.
1:04:13SPEAKERNow they have had some releases that like,
1:04:15SPEAKERdid things like, you know, delete user data.
1:04:18SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:04:19SPEAKER- That's bad.
1:04:20SPEAKERThey've had to roll back some updates
1:04:22SPEAKERbecause of stuff like that.
1:04:23SPEAKERSo it's not been flawless.
1:04:25SPEAKERI think this is pretty good.
1:04:26SPEAKERI don't know that it's as good as Windows 7.
1:04:28SPEAKER- I will say the biggest knock for me against Windows 10
1:04:31SPEAKERis that it just still is having
1:04:33SPEAKERa little kind of this identity crisis,
1:04:34SPEAKERwhich again is like a legacy of eight.
1:04:36SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:04:37SPEAKER- But it's like, there are effectively
1:04:39SPEAKERtwo control panels in Windows 10.
1:04:40SPEAKERThere's like the modern Metro-ish,
1:04:42SPEAKERlike tile-based touch looking thing.
1:04:45SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:04:45SPEAKER- But every so often you're gonna get shunted off
1:04:47SPEAKERto like a dialogue that's been there for 15 years
1:04:49SPEAKERbecause there's some functionality
1:04:51SPEAKERin that new system panel that doesn't exist.
1:04:53SPEAKER- Yeah, your disk management interface
1:04:54SPEAKERis still the same as it was in Windows 2000.
1:04:57SPEAKER- Like the literal old control panel,
1:05:00SPEAKERlike the XP style control panel is still in there
1:05:01SPEAKERand occasionally you need to use it
1:05:03SPEAKERbecause the new stuff doesn't do what you need.
1:05:04SPEAKER- Well, and sometimes you need to go back
1:05:05SPEAKERto like the computer management thing,
1:05:07SPEAKERwhich was the control panel for NT in 2000.
1:05:09SPEAKER- Yes.
1:05:10SPEAKERLike they've done a pretty bad job
1:05:11SPEAKERof unifying all that stuff.
1:05:13SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:05:14SPEAKER- Even on the interface side, what do you call them?
1:05:16SPEAKERLike what are the, what's the design terminology, yeah,
1:05:19SPEAKERfor like the X, the close window button and stuff like that.
1:05:21SPEAKER- Window crumb, that's what that's called.
1:05:23SPEAKER- All that stuff feels like a little bit just janky
1:05:25SPEAKERand like not very well thought out to me.
1:05:27SPEAKER- Yeah, and like there's a thing that happened
1:05:30SPEAKERwhen they redesigned the UI for touch
1:05:32SPEAKERwhere they kind of split the difference
1:05:34SPEAKERinstead of making like separate UI for touch
1:05:36SPEAKERand separate UI for mouse and keyboard.
1:05:38SPEAKERAnd they fixed a lot of that when they went to 10,
1:05:41SPEAKERbut they didn't fix all of it.
1:05:42SPEAKER- Right, like it looks better,
1:05:43SPEAKERbut it's got, there's just something
1:05:44SPEAKERlike a little bit unattractive about it to me.
1:05:46SPEAKER- The other thing that is uncomfortable for me
1:05:48SPEAKERabout Windows 10 is, you know,
1:05:50SPEAKERit's when they switched to Windows as a service
1:05:52SPEAKERand that's good in that they update more frequently
1:05:55SPEAKERthan they did before, but it's also bad in that now,
1:05:59SPEAKERlike Windows is doing shit in the background,
1:06:00SPEAKERlike, you know, installing Candy Crush
1:06:02SPEAKERbecause they have a deal with the people
1:06:05SPEAKERthat make Candy Crush.
1:06:06SPEAKER- Oh, I forgot about all that stuff.
1:06:07SPEAKERI mean, it's like fairly easy to purge that stuff
1:06:09SPEAKERafter a new install, but like I'm with you.
1:06:11SPEAKER- But it keeps coming too.
1:06:12SPEAKER- Wait, are you sure you can't just disable it?
1:06:14SPEAKER- Entirely?
1:06:15SPEAKER- No, if you have the enterprise version, you can.
1:06:17SPEAKER- Like, so I'm on Pro.
1:06:19SPEAKERI don't know if that has anything to do with it.
1:06:20SPEAKER- Candy Crush Saga still installed on my computer.
1:06:23SPEAKER- Like that stuff is definitely there after a new install.
1:06:24SPEAKERLike you have to go through the start menu
1:06:26SPEAKERand delete eight or 10 different things
1:06:29SPEAKERthat you definitely don't want.
1:06:30SPEAKER- Well, and like, I have a Facebook app on here.
1:06:32SPEAKERI didn't put this on here.
1:06:33SPEAKER- Yeah, that sucks.
1:06:34SPEAKERThat's terrible.
1:06:35SPEAKERI'm with you on that.
1:06:36SPEAKER- Yeah, so I'm not a huge fan of that,
1:06:38SPEAKERjust generally speaking.
1:06:39SPEAKER- Yeah, and like the, you know, the store stuff is okay,
1:06:43SPEAKERbut like, I don't know.
1:06:44SPEAKERI've had issues with the store not being able to patch
1:06:48SPEAKERor install stuff properly sometimes.
1:06:50SPEAKER- Yeah, the store works great
1:06:51SPEAKERfor like the lightweight applications, like a Twitter client,
1:06:53SPEAKERbut when you need to install 100 gigs of Gears of War 5.
1:06:57SPEAKER- Yes, it can be a little-
1:06:57SPEAKER- Maybe not great.
1:06:58SPEAKER- A little rickety.
1:06:59SPEAKERI'm like, now they're rolling out
1:07:00SPEAKERthis separate Xbox store app,
1:07:02SPEAKERand I'm not sure why we need multiple stores
1:07:03SPEAKERand, you know, X, Y, and Z.
1:07:05SPEAKER- I kind of like having the games all in different places.
1:07:07SPEAKER- I don't know.
1:07:08SPEAKERI mean, there are some things about it that could be better.
1:07:10SPEAKERBut like, and also the fact that the default apps
1:07:13SPEAKERare still the windows, the Metro apps, whatever they call it,
1:07:17SPEAKERthey don't call them Metro anymore.
1:07:18SPEAKERWe're going to get yelled at for this, I'm sure.
1:07:19SPEAKERBut, you know, the tile apps,
1:07:21SPEAKERlike the calendar and the mail apps are-
1:07:23SPEAKER- Okay, yeah.
1:07:24SPEAKER- Are tile apps versus real apps, yeah.
1:07:28SPEAKER- Although they open source the calculator.
1:07:30SPEAKER- Oh, that's nice.
1:07:31SPEAKER- Like, I actually, you know what, that is,
1:07:32SPEAKERand I don't know if that's more of a Microsoft thing
1:07:33SPEAKERthan a Windows thing,
1:07:34SPEAKERbut like all the Windows subsystem for Linux stuff,
1:07:37SPEAKERI don't know if you're familiar with that stuff.
1:07:37SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:07:38SPEAKERSo you can get like a basically functional install
1:07:40SPEAKERof like Debian or Ubuntu.
1:07:42SPEAKER- Yeah, that sounds cool.
1:07:43SPEAKER- And they're actually working on a new version of that,
1:07:46SPEAKERaptly titled Windows Subsystem for Linux 2, which-
1:07:50SPEAKER- I like that, I'm into that.
1:07:52SPEAKER- Apparently like the stuff they've got now
1:07:53SPEAKERis very abstracted and like super clunky and slow
1:07:56SPEAKERand not very well thought out.
1:07:57SPEAKER- It's not like a VM, it's just like, okay.
1:08:00SPEAKER- The SQL to WSL is apparently like mostly virtualized
1:08:02SPEAKERand like actually a pretty functional Linux install,
1:08:05SPEAKERwhich is awesome.
1:08:06SPEAKER- That sounds pretty good.
1:08:07SPEAKER- And you know, they bought GitHub,
1:08:08SPEAKERlike this is much broader than just Windows,
1:08:09SPEAKERbut Microsoft kind of like letting their hair down
1:08:12SPEAKERa little bit and kind of getting a little more
1:08:14SPEAKERinto the open source world.
1:08:16SPEAKERJoining the rest of computing is kind of what I'm-
1:08:18SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:08:19SPEAKER- It feels like they're making like a nice effort
1:08:20SPEAKERto like actually integrate with the way
1:08:21SPEAKERthe software is developed these days.
1:08:23SPEAKER- Well, one of the things Sachin and Adele
1:08:24SPEAKERwanted to do from the beginning was like have everything
1:08:28SPEAKERtreated as a service and shift revenue appropriately.
1:08:32SPEAKERAnd I mean, the good side of that is the stuff
1:08:34SPEAKERyou're talking about, right?
1:08:35SPEAKERLike they're actually doing this stuff that people,
1:08:37SPEAKERthe users want and need.
1:08:38SPEAKER- Right, like there's GitHub repos for the new terminal
1:08:41SPEAKERand the calculator and stuff.
1:08:43SPEAKER- I'll trade that for having to uninstall Candy Crush
1:08:46SPEAKERevery time I do a major update for Windows.
1:08:47SPEAKER- It's a pain, but there are ways to get rid of that stuff.
1:08:50SPEAKER- Here's something I don't like about Windows 10.
1:08:51SPEAKERThis is a venue to complain about this.
1:08:54SPEAKERYou know how Windows used to blue screen
1:08:56SPEAKERand give you an error message and it'd be like,
1:08:57SPEAKERhey, here's some business that will help you
1:08:59SPEAKERfix your problem.
1:09:00SPEAKER- I know where this is going.
1:09:01SPEAKER- Now it says, you got a frowny face.
1:09:04SPEAKER- I hate that frowny face so much.
1:09:05SPEAKER- Yeah, that frowny face is a dick.
1:09:06SPEAKER- I will say in defense of Windows 10,
1:09:08SPEAKERI almost never see a blue screen of any kind.
1:09:10SPEAKER- Well, you clearly were not doing VR development in 2015.
1:09:13SPEAKER- No, I'm not working with a bunch of weird hardware
1:09:15SPEAKERthat has like maybe shabby drivers or whatever.
1:09:17SPEAKER- So on that blue screen now is a QR code
1:09:21SPEAKERand there's an error message.
1:09:22SPEAKERIt says like, here's the name of the blue screen,
1:09:24SPEAKERwhichever one you get and the QR code.
1:09:26SPEAKERAnd you point your phone at the screen
1:09:28SPEAKERand you get the QR code and you're like, oh man,
1:09:30SPEAKERsweet, this is gonna take me exactly to the page
1:09:31SPEAKERthat fixes my problem.
1:09:33SPEAKER'Cause why would you put a QR code on the blue screen
1:09:35SPEAKERif it doesn't do that?
1:09:36SPEAKER- And no, it takes you to the,
1:09:38SPEAKERhey, so you've had a blue screen page
1:09:40SPEAKERon Microsoft's knowledge base.
1:09:41SPEAKERYou're like, well, clearly there's a place here
1:09:43SPEAKERfor me to put in the error that I got.
1:09:45SPEAKERSo it'll take me to the page.
1:09:46SPEAKERMaybe like the blue screen, the kernel isn't big enough
1:09:50SPEAKERto have a million QR codes.
1:09:52SPEAKERYou don't wanna blossom that thing out.
1:09:53SPEAKERYou wanna keep it nice and tight and small.
1:09:55SPEAKERSo we'll just have the one QR code
1:09:57SPEAKERand then a page that you can type the exact string in
1:10:00SPEAKERthat you have takes, no, that's not there.
1:10:02SPEAKER- Nothing. - Just a generic.
1:10:03SPEAKERSo you've had a blue screen.
1:10:04SPEAKERYou might wanna call your hardware vendor support page
1:10:07SPEAKERto get some help with this.
1:10:09SPEAKER- Great. - So for me, that's like,
1:10:10SPEAKERI think that puts it somewhere between like EMI and 3.1.
1:10:13SPEAKER- Whoa. - No, no, no,
1:10:14SPEAKERI'm kidding, I'm kidding. - Yeah, okay.
1:10:15SPEAKER- I think this is a solid number one or two.
1:10:18SPEAKER- Remind me, what's their top like five look like right now?
1:10:20SPEAKER- Our list as, our top 10 right now,
1:10:23SPEAKERthe 11 greatest Windowses of all time.
1:10:26SPEAKERWindows 7, number one.
1:10:28SPEAKERNumber two is Windows 2000.
1:10:29SPEAKERNumber three is Windows XP.
1:10:31SPEAKERNumber four is Windows 98.
1:10:33SPEAKERNumber five is Windows NT4.
1:10:34SPEAKERNumber six is Windows 95.
1:10:36SPEAKERNumber seven is Windows 3.1.
1:10:38SPEAKERNumber eight is Windows ME, unnecessary but okay.
1:10:42SPEAKERNumber nine, Windows Vista, bad.
1:10:45SPEAKERAnd number 10 is Windows 8, offensively bad.
1:10:48SPEAKER- Okay, yeah, that's a pretty good list.
1:10:50SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, I like Windows 7 a lot.
1:10:52SPEAKER- Yeah. - But I also like fast updates.
1:10:55SPEAKER- Yeah. - I like that
1:10:56SPEAKERinsider business, I like knowing when I hit the update button
1:11:00SPEAKERit's not gonna hose me probably,
1:11:02SPEAKERunless it deletes my data that one time
1:11:03SPEAKERthat we don't talk about anymore.
1:11:05SPEAKER- Windows 7 is very uneven to me.
1:11:06SPEAKERIt's got a lot of good stuff about it,
1:11:07SPEAKERbut like you've been saying, there's a lot of drawbacks.
1:11:10SPEAKER- So you're saying if we were talking
1:11:11SPEAKERabout the fall creators update, you'd be in,
1:11:13SPEAKERbut if we were talking about the creators update,
1:11:14SPEAKERnot so much. - Yeah, the first creators
1:11:16SPEAKERupdate, bad stuff. - Yeah.
1:11:18SPEAKER- I don't know if I'm glossing over problems
1:11:19SPEAKERwith seven in my mind or not.
1:11:21SPEAKER- Oh, almost certainly.
1:11:22SPEAKER- Okay, 'cause I feel like my memory of seven
1:11:24SPEAKERis just pretty smooth sailing.
1:11:25SPEAKER- It was rock solid, man. - Yeah.
1:11:27SPEAKER- Like, look, after the Vista debacle,
1:11:30SPEAKERthey were like, look, we gotta fix this.
1:11:31SPEAKERWe got one chance to make this right
1:11:33SPEAKERor people are gonna go buy Macs,
1:11:34SPEAKER'cause people were going to buy Macs, right?
1:11:36SPEAKERRemember? - Yeah, yeah.
1:11:37SPEAKER- Like, people were-- - 2008 is when
1:11:39SPEAKERI bought my first MacBook. - Yeah.
1:11:41SPEAKERApple was selling more laptops
1:11:42SPEAKERthan any PC vendor at that point.
1:11:44SPEAKERSo you gotta look at that and you gotta think,
1:11:47SPEAKERoh, we gotta get this thing under control.
1:11:50SPEAKERNot any PC vendor across all price ranges.
1:11:52SPEAKERIn the price ranges where Apple was selling laptops,
1:11:54SPEAKERthey were selling more $1,000 laptops than anybody else.
1:11:57SPEAKERI think they were like, we gotta make it secure,
1:12:00SPEAKERwe gotta make it fast, we gotta make it good.
1:12:02SPEAKERIf we don't do that, then we lose.
1:12:04SPEAKEROur cash cow dies.
1:12:06SPEAKERSo, yeah, and I think, you know,
1:12:10SPEAKERdifferent priorities with Windows 8,
1:12:11SPEAKERthey were trying to open new markets.
1:12:12SPEAKER- Oh yeah. - Yeah, badly.
1:12:13SPEAKER- They just made a horrible bet.
1:12:14SPEAKER- Yeah. - And Windows 10,
1:12:16SPEAKERthey were just trying to recover from Windows 8,
1:12:17SPEAKERbut not throw away the new markets,
1:12:19SPEAKERthe tiny new markets. - Again, a lot of what
1:12:20SPEAKERI don't like about Windows 10 is just a trickle down effect
1:12:24SPEAKERof the mistakes they made with 8.
1:12:26SPEAKER- Yeah, but that's still, you know,
1:12:27SPEAKERit's still in the product, so you have to hold it against it.
1:12:29SPEAKER- I feel like in my memory,
1:12:31SPEAKER7 was a much cleaner experience than 10,
1:12:33SPEAKERbut 10 does a lot of cool stuff that 7 didn't, so.
1:12:36SPEAKER- I feel like 10 is more good than bad.
1:12:38SPEAKER- Yeah, I can agree with that.
1:12:42SPEAKER- I can play Xbox games on my PC now, right?
1:12:45SPEAKER- Yeah. - That's pretty cool.
1:12:47SPEAKERI have a touchscreen on this laptop.
1:12:49SPEAKER- Yeah. - That's neat.
1:12:50SPEAKER- And it works. - Yeah, it's great.
1:12:51SPEAKER- I've never used touch Windows 10, is it pretty good?
1:12:54SPEAKER- It's exactly what you would expect.
1:12:55SPEAKER- Okay, that's good. - It's a mixed bag.
1:12:57SPEAKER- I do like all that, like you said,
1:12:58SPEAKERlike all that rapid support from your hardware,
1:13:00SPEAKERlike it does so much now.
1:13:01SPEAKER- Yeah, stuff just works.
1:13:04SPEAKER- Generally, yeah.
1:13:05SPEAKER- Unless it deletes your files, which is the downside.
1:13:08SPEAKER- Yeah. - I mean, just to be clear,
1:13:10SPEAKERwhen you're talking about a piece of software,
1:13:12SPEAKERthe scale of Windows 10, when they roll out new software,
1:13:16SPEAKERand it has a minor bug that affects
1:13:18SPEAKERa tiny percentage of people, it's still gonna delete.
1:13:21SPEAKER- It's still gonna be. - 100,000 people's pictures.
1:13:23SPEAKER- Six or seven figures. - Yeah, which is real bad.
1:13:26SPEAKERYeah. - I'm just trying to decide
1:13:28SPEAKERif I'm comfortable saying Windows 10 is the best Windows.
1:13:31SPEAKER- I think it's the number two.
1:13:32SPEAKER- Okay.
1:13:34SPEAKER- If Windows 7 was still supported and I didn't make VR,
1:13:37SPEAKERlike when I left tested, I was like,
1:13:38SPEAKERman, I could go back and put Windows 7 on my computer.
1:13:40SPEAKER- It just worked. - It just worked.
1:13:42SPEAKERExcept I burned my Windows 7 key upgrading to Windows 10.
1:13:45SPEAKER- Exactly. - And also,
1:13:46SPEAKERI was doing VR software, which doesn't really work
1:13:48SPEAKERvery well on Windows 7. - Yeah.
1:13:51SPEAKER- It's weird to think that rolling back two versions
1:13:54SPEAKERis the smart thing to do.
1:13:55SPEAKER- Yeah, well, again, lack of support is.
1:13:57SPEAKER- Yeah, that's the death knell in this day and age, right?
1:14:00SPEAKER- Probably no UEFI support, probably no NVMe.
1:14:04SPEAKER- Again, that's like historical stuff, you know,
1:14:06SPEAKERlike at the time, that didn't matter.
1:14:07SPEAKERLike now. - I'm not gonna run
1:14:09SPEAKERWindows 7 now, realistically. - Yeah, you shouldn't be
1:14:10SPEAKERrunning an operating system that old at this point.
1:14:14SPEAKER- Yeah, that's no longer supported.
1:14:16SPEAKER- You look conflicted.
1:14:16SPEAKERTalk me through your process.
1:14:17SPEAKERWhat are you thinking about, Brad?
1:14:18SPEAKER- Like I said, I just think Windows 10 is very hot and cold.
1:14:21SPEAKER- Yeah. - I would put it,
1:14:22SPEAKERI would probably put it at number two.
1:14:24SPEAKER- Put it at number two? - Yeah.
1:14:25SPEAKER- Do you think it'll ever iron out a lot of these
1:14:27SPEAKERinconsistencies and like make it feel like
1:14:29SPEAKERa proper unified Windows again?
1:14:31SPEAKER- I mean. - Knowing the history
1:14:33SPEAKERof Windows, I'm gonna say definitely not.
1:14:34SPEAKER- I think the knock against Windows 10 is that each update
1:14:37SPEAKERis not necessarily better than the one that came before it.
1:14:39SPEAKER- Yeah. - Like some of them
1:14:40SPEAKERhave definitely been better. - Yeah.
1:14:42SPEAKER- Some of them have been flat. - Sure.
1:14:44SPEAKER- Couple of them, definitely worse.
1:14:45SPEAKER- Yes, absolutely. - So.
1:14:47SPEAKER- There have been a good number of them are just like,
1:14:48SPEAKERI installed the update and I'm like, okay.
1:14:50SPEAKER- What changed? - I guess you updated it.
1:14:51SPEAKERI don't know, like I'll go read a list and it'll be like,
1:14:53SPEAKERoh, the calendar app that I don't use
1:14:55SPEAKERhas this and this now, great, whatever.
1:14:57SPEAKER- You know, if anything, like if I was close,
1:15:00SPEAKERI'm not close on one or two here.
1:15:02SPEAKERIf I was close, I think the messages, the error messages
1:15:05SPEAKERand like the install upgrade messages, the,
1:15:08SPEAKERdon't worry, your files are safe,
1:15:09SPEAKERthey're just right where you left them.
1:15:11SPEAKER- Not a huge fan. - Like that stuff,
1:15:12SPEAKERit's creepy, man. - Especially when you say
1:15:13SPEAKERit in that voice, that's, yeah.
1:15:16SPEAKER- We're taking good care of your stuff, Brad.
1:15:18SPEAKER- Windows 10 is a dark figure in a trench coat in an alleyway.
1:15:21SPEAKER- Hey man, hey man, you want your pictures back?
1:15:23SPEAKER- Hey, you want these files?
1:15:24SPEAKER- Yeah, get it on that insider ring,
1:15:25SPEAKERwe'll give you your files back right now.
1:15:26SPEAKER- Opens the trench coat, I've got your files right here.
1:15:29SPEAKER- I think two is a good spot for Windows 10.
1:15:31SPEAKER- Okay. - Yeah, I think, look,
1:15:32SPEAKERWindows 10, Windows 7, pretty short life.
1:15:35SPEAKER- Yeah, maybe they didn't have time to screw it up.
1:15:38SPEAKER- They didn't have time to mess it up,
1:15:39SPEAKERbut it, I just, what I remember of it, it was very solid.
1:15:42SPEAKER- Okay, so that's it, it's a definitive ordered list
1:15:44SPEAKERof Windowses. - But I will say,
1:15:45SPEAKERI will say Windows 10, especially again,
1:15:47SPEAKERif they're gonna support it for like years to come,
1:15:49SPEAKERif it's just the Windows for the foreseeable future,
1:15:52SPEAKERit's possible it could grow into the number one spot.
1:15:55SPEAKER- Do you think we're gonna revisit this topic?
1:15:56SPEAKER- No, I'm not saying we will necessarily,
1:15:58SPEAKERI'm just saying like, they could get it to a place
1:16:00SPEAKERwhere I would feel comfortable saying it's the best one.
1:16:02SPEAKER- You're saying if it bucks up and flies straight,
1:16:05SPEAKERit keeps its head on, right? - Yes, straight.
1:16:06SPEAKER- One day Windows 10. - Gets its act together.
1:16:08SPEAKER- Could reach the number one. - Straight enough, yeah.
1:16:10SPEAKER- I think it's important to give a Windows a room to grow.
1:16:12SPEAKER- I think you're right.
1:16:13SPEAKER- You don't wanna clip its wings
1:16:14SPEAKERwhen it's just on an upswing.
1:16:15SPEAKER- I think I'm gonna make Windows 10 smoke the whole pack,
1:16:17SPEAKERit'll learn its lesson.
1:16:18SPEAKER- Yeah, it better not to do this again.
1:16:21SPEAKERNo more Candy Crush Windows 10.
1:16:23SPEAKERDon't delete people's photos.
1:16:24SPEAKER- Yeah, that's not cool.
1:16:25SPEAKER- Bad Windows. - Yeah, that's not cool.
1:16:27SPEAKER- Okay, so here's once and for all.
1:16:29SPEAKER- All right.
1:16:30SPEAKER- Are we confident in this visual good?
1:16:31SPEAKER- TechPod ranking of, I mean, sorry,
1:16:33SPEAKERthe ordering of Windows.
1:16:34SPEAKER- Ordering of Windows is number 11, Windows 8.
1:16:37SPEAKER- Richly deserved.
1:16:38SPEAKER- Yeah, really more for the cell phone than anything else.
1:16:43SPEAKERHey, no, you can't have two windows open at the same time.
1:16:46SPEAKERGo to hell, Windows 8.
1:16:48SPEAKERNumber 10, Windows Vista.
1:16:50SPEAKERNumber nine, Windows ME, Millennium Edition.
1:16:53SPEAKERNumber eight, Windows 3.1.
1:16:55SPEAKERNumber seven, Windows 95.
1:16:57SPEAKERNumber, I'm surprised Windows 95 is so low, actually.
1:17:00SPEAKERBut I think it's right.
1:17:02SPEAKERI think we could--
1:17:03SPEAKER- Again, very historically significant.
1:17:05SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:17:06SPEAKER- But as an experience, as an actual operating system,
1:17:08SPEAKERlike it had a lot of growing pains.
1:17:10SPEAKER- Yeah, it was a mixed bag.
1:17:12SPEAKER- It was not all the way there.
1:17:13SPEAKER- You know, the thing we never say, 'cause it's a cliche.
1:17:16SPEAKER- Yes.
1:17:17SPEAKER- Number six, Windows NT4.
1:17:21SPEAKERNumber five, Windows 98.
1:17:23SPEAKERNumber four, Windows XP.
1:17:25SPEAKERNumber three, Windows 2000.
1:17:27SPEAKERNumber two, Windows 10.
1:17:29SPEAKERNumber one, Windows 7.
1:17:31SPEAKERThe greatest Windows of all time.
1:17:32SPEAKER- That is not the result I would have expected
1:17:34SPEAKERgoing into this.
1:17:35SPEAKER- What were you thinking coming in?
1:17:36SPEAKER- I figured we'd probably just land on 10 by default.
1:17:39SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:17:40SPEAKER- But then once I actually started thinking about it,
1:17:41SPEAKERlike, Windows 10's a little uneven.
1:17:43SPEAKER- Yeah, unmarked.
1:17:45SPEAKERWindows 7 is unmarked.
1:17:46SPEAKERUnsullied by the concerns of commerce.
1:17:48SPEAKER- A sterling reputation.
1:17:50SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:17:50SPEAKER- Pristine.
1:17:51SPEAKER- It's fast, it's 3D accelerated.
1:17:54SPEAKER- Much like Aero Glass, it has a pristine reputation.
1:17:56SPEAKER- Oh, yeah.
1:17:57SPEAKER- It's just so translucent.
1:17:59SPEAKER- Yes.
1:18:00SPEAKER- Well, if you enjoyed this, there's an opportunity,
1:18:03SPEAKERthere's two ways for you to leave feedback on this episode.
1:18:05SPEAKEROne is you can email us.
1:18:07SPEAKERNext week, we'll have a Q and A episode coming up.
1:18:09SPEAKERSo you can email us techpod@content.town
1:18:12SPEAKERwith your questions, comments, or social statements.
1:18:15SPEAKER- And now that we've shifted our cadence,
1:18:18SPEAKERthey'll have time to let us know
1:18:19SPEAKERhow wrong we are about Windows.
1:18:20SPEAKER- And you can let us know if you like two part episodes.
1:18:22SPEAKERYou want some, you want it, we can, this is,
1:18:24SPEAKERI like to think of this as the best of both worlds.
1:18:26SPEAKER- I guess, okay.
1:18:27SPEAKER- Of the tech pod.
1:18:27SPEAKER- The season ending cliffhanger.
1:18:29SPEAKER- I mean, we could have waited,
1:18:30SPEAKERwe could just wait two months and then post the second part.
1:18:32SPEAKER- Wow.
1:18:32SPEAKER- People will forget.
1:18:33SPEAKER- People would be pissed off by now.
1:18:36SPEAKER- Also unplanned, I should point out.
1:18:37SPEAKERWe didn't, I don't think we went into this planning
1:18:39SPEAKERfor this to be two episodes.
1:18:40SPEAKER- I did not think we were, yeah,
1:18:41SPEAKERI didn't think we'd spend this much time
1:18:42SPEAKERtalking about Windows 2000. - No idea that we would spend two and a half hours talking about Windows.
1:18:47SPEAKER- So techpod@content.town is the email address,
1:18:50SPEAKERor the survey's still live.
1:18:52SPEAKERWe talked about it the last couple of weeks.
1:18:54SPEAKERYou can go to survey.content.town.
1:18:57SPEAKER- We still have time to earn our undying appreciation.
1:18:59SPEAKER- Yes, let us know how you think the pod is going.
1:19:02SPEAKERLeave comments, let Brad know
1:19:04SPEAKERif you should upgrade his monitors or not.
1:19:05SPEAKERAll these questions and more you can answer for us
1:19:08SPEAKERso that we can continue improving the pod.
1:19:09SPEAKER- Need to think about that one a little bit more.
1:19:11SPEAKER- That'll do it, I think, I think we've talked enough.
1:19:13SPEAKER- Yes, I think you're right.
1:19:15SPEAKER- See you all next week.
1:19:16SPEAKERThanks for listening, everybody.
1:19:17SPEAKER(upbeat music)