00:00SPEAKERSo this is Christmas
00:02SPEAKERIt's not a song for good and for bad. No, yes
00:05SPEAKERYeah, that's a that's a that's a that's a song. That's Christmas. I think that might be my favorite Christmas song
00:10SPEAKERActually, you just make that up. I assume go on. That's the John Lennon Christmas song, right? Give me a few more. This is Christmas
00:17SPEAKERFor good and for bad. Oh
00:22SPEAKERThere's something I said, I don't know. Yeah, I'm better lyrics. It's a good Christmas song. That's not a bad one
00:26SPEAKERI'd I've been going through some Christmas albums really recently. Yeah, my latest find discovery
00:34SPEAKERArchaeological dig. Yeah
00:36SPEAKERChristmas by Mannheim steamroller
00:39SPEAKERLook, okay
00:41SPEAKERThere's a place in time for Mannheim steamroller. I will tell you is there
00:44SPEAKERyeah, the place is there's a there's a house in the back of the valley in Pacifica that does a
00:50SPEAKERLaser light show synchronized to Mannheim steamroller where they project a bunch of stuff on their house
00:54SPEAKERThat's you've nailed it and you roll. Yeah, you roll up and you tune your radio to 690 a.m
01:01SPEAKERWow, you sit in your car and they project a bunch of stuff on their house and they have lights everywhere and it's crazy is
01:06SPEAKERSuper good. Okay. First of all, you completely nailed it. Mannheim steamroller is the laser light show of Christmas. Oh, yeah
01:12SPEAKEROh, yeah, it's a way do they they have like an a.m. Transmitter installed somewhere. They have a small a.m. Transmitter
01:19SPEAKERIt's really short range. It's like half a block range. Oh, that's awesome. And then
01:23SPEAKERand then yeah
01:25SPEAKERand then every like 10 15 minutes they start a show and the show is programmed and synchronized with the music and
01:30SPEAKERLike like the little there's a little tree in the front that's like goes with the timpani drums and it's it is really cool
01:37SPEAKERThat's wild if you want to come check it out. Let me know I can I can hook you up man
01:41SPEAKERThey just yeah, they just have people coming and going old all night. I'd look I'm sure their neighbors absolutely fucking hate it
01:48SPEAKERIt's like if people are just stop in the middle of the road. They're like, what the hell is this?
01:53SPEAKERYeah, it's it's a little bit of a it's a traffic hazard
01:55SPEAKERBut yeah, it stops at like 11 o'clock or 10 o'clock or something like that
01:58SPEAKERIf if anybody wants to know what I'm talking about
02:01SPEAKERHit YouTube and try to pull up deck the halls by Mannheim steamroller and you'll immediately
02:06SPEAKERGet what it's it is the best of cheesy 80s synths
02:11SPEAKERSynthesizers playing Christmas music. I'm not all of the stuff on there
02:14SPEAKERThere are traditional like woodwinds and stuff on that album, but it's a bit synthy
02:18SPEAKERIt is it is very much like hey we can make electronic music now and we are going to abuse that power a lot
02:26SPEAKERIn the name of Kris Kringle
02:28SPEAKERWe had a Christmas album that I have tracked down multiple times that I can never remember the name of it
02:34SPEAKERSo this is gonna be great for everybody listening at home
02:37SPEAKERbut it was like
02:38SPEAKERIt was like a children's Christmas party
02:42SPEAKERit's like it was like a concept album in that there were a bunch of children that came over to somebody's house or maybe it's
02:47SPEAKERThe the people's children and they were all singing Christmas carols, but it was recorded in Nashville in like 1978
02:53SPEAKEROkay, and all of the children had incredibly thick tennis not just southern accents, but Tennessee accents. Oh boy
03:00SPEAKERand
03:02SPEAKERlike it's all bangers like all I want for Christmas is my two front teeth and
03:08SPEAKERYeah, it's it's it's like there's songs I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus
03:15SPEAKERI'm logging into Spotify right now to see if I can find it
03:18SPEAKERBut I think it's probably I probably have to do some more research lost to the mists of time
03:23SPEAKERWell, just just a free associate our way through this cold open to bring it all home
03:26SPEAKERYeah, speaking of all I want for Christmas made popular by Alvin and the chipmunks. Wait, really?
03:32SPEAKERThat was an Alvin the chipmunk song originally. Well, maybe not originally, but okay, they didn't they do a version that is very well known
03:38SPEAKERI like I'm gonna go and tell you my father did not approve of the chipmunks nor Alvin what?
03:43SPEAKERSo we did not have a lot of Alvin and chipmunks in the house
03:46SPEAKERWe didn't have it around but I don't think anybody was ideologically opposed to it or anything
03:50SPEAKERBut hmm. Yes, I've confirmed that is a popular Alvin and chipmunk
03:54SPEAKERAnyway, I discovered while editing last week's episode yesterday. Mm-hmm
03:59SPEAKEROn the I key in audacity. Oh, no it fast forwards and if it basically the more zoomed out
04:07SPEAKERYou are on the timeline the faster it plays
04:08SPEAKEROh my god, so every time every step every step of zoom out that you do you can hold down I and get an even faster
04:14SPEAKERVersion of us. Oh my god. I'm just gonna say we make great chipmunks
04:38SPEAKERYou
04:48SPEAKERWelcome to Brad will made a tech pot. I'm will I'm Brad a happy new year to you. Happy new year Brad
04:55SPEAKERDid you have your collard greens and black-eyed peas this morning as I hope as the tradition requires?
04:59SPEAKERIf we if we talked about that before I thought that was a universal thing and then last year, but it's not a universal thing
05:06SPEAKEROh, no, I guess we have I guess we haven't talked about it. No, it's like a southern thing
05:09SPEAKERI think and I have my own black-eyed peas and collards recipe. I combine them. Whoa. Yeah, it's really good
05:16SPEAKERI'll send it to you. All right, that sounds pretty I'll put on the shitty blog
05:19SPEAKERSo that all the people can have it. I it is it is one of a handful of recipes
05:23SPEAKERI've invented myself from scratch
05:25SPEAKERWow, like I took what I knew about food and I was like if I do these things
05:28SPEAKERI think this will taste good and then you know what it tasted good
05:31SPEAKERI'd say I'm finding I'm finding shitty blog to be increasingly a misnomer because it seemed like you keep putting
05:37SPEAKERDecidedly not shitty things on shitty blog, but it's shitty because it's infrequent because it's like at my 17th job at this point
05:44SPEAKERSo, you know, it's like it's like it's not gonna look you can't come there for reliable day in and day out posts
05:49SPEAKERIt's like maybe one post a week or maybe two sure. I I figured it was shitty because it was slapped together. No offense Wow
05:56SPEAKERThat's a lot better. But but temple didn't like I think you you said you just pulled an off-the-shelf template, right? Of course
06:02SPEAKERI'm not gonna make it like I don't have the skill if I could make a blog template
06:06SPEAKERThat looked better than when you just pull off the shelf. I'd probably be making blog templates for a living
06:12SPEAKERDo you not have comments enabled? No, fuck no. Oh never comments Brad. How how can people engage?
06:18SPEAKERYou know what? I'm fine
06:20SPEAKERThey can retweet it. They can tell their friends. That's how they can engage. This is pretty nice looking
06:25SPEAKERDo you do you make you make these did you take this photo of your the inside of your PC?
06:29SPEAKERIs this band that you made this banner on this post yourself? Oh, I did that and I did that with affinity photo
06:33SPEAKERHuh? I've applied all the lessons that I've learned making content over the years to shitty blog
06:38SPEAKERAre these your jar jars of nog? They must be those are indeed my though
06:42SPEAKERThat's the 2020 bat 2021 bat put me in the hospital. Okay, that's not one of the jars I have in my fridge
06:48SPEAKERWell, you had it in your fridge at one point, but not this year. I hope not this year at least. Mmm
06:52SPEAKERWhat if I just like it really aged but look people do that people people start making nog in July and then let it sit
06:59SPEAKERFor six months and drink it in December and I don't have the intestinal fortitude to try that. I don't think do you know?
07:05SPEAKERWhat's what's happening chemically?
07:07SPEAKERmolecularly
07:08SPEAKERLike it's that much time. I assume there's at least some light fermentation going on in there. I don't know
07:14SPEAKERI don't I don't look I I would okay if I was in Nepal and someone's like hey, man
07:20SPEAKERYou want try some fermented yak milk? I would absolutely go in for that. Yes, but if it's if somebody's like hey
07:24SPEAKERDo you want to have if when June rolls around and I find a leftover jug of nog in the back of the fridge?
07:29SPEAKERI just I mean, I'm gonna be honest. I just throw it straight in the trash. I don't even dump it out
07:34SPEAKERI'm just like I believe you believe that thing sealed up and it's a ticking time bomb for the future that jar is forfeit
07:40SPEAKERYeah
07:40SPEAKERI assume that this is how like the Egyptians ended up with like me that people find
07:46SPEAKER2,000 years later is somebody got it and they're like, oh man, this has been too long
07:50SPEAKERWe shouldn't drink this and then they just chuck it in the landfill. Mm-hmm the Egyptian landfill. Mm-hmm microbes
07:55SPEAKERYeah, exactly. All right. Yeah speaking of we would like you've ranked projects. Okay. Hey, there you go
08:02SPEAKERYeah, it was a way better segue than what I had
08:05SPEAKERSoftware it's time. It's time
08:09SPEAKERYes, it's again time
08:11SPEAKERFor a second week running. Yeah spanning years
08:15SPEAKERProject spanning years right? I I'm worried that this might be the project of our lifetime
08:20SPEAKERLike I'm worried that this might be all we do for the remainder of our podcasting careers
08:26SPEAKERLet's provisionally let's see what the audience has to say about that
08:29SPEAKERbut you know if
08:31SPEAKERIf I were to if I had to be locked into one podcast topic from now on talking about the history of software
08:37SPEAKERI think would be pretty tolerable. That's should be up there. That would be up there among things
08:42SPEAKERI wouldn't mind having to talk about all the time. Well, okay, so I figure
08:45SPEAKERLike I look at like Leo Laporte who's still going strong it in his mid 70s, right?
08:50SPEAKERLate 60s early 70s. I don't know. I
08:53SPEAKERFeel like Leo's Leo's a significant amount older than us, but maybe he's only like ten years and I just haven't seen him a long
08:58SPEAKERTime 66. Yeah, so so I figure I got at least 20 years left. That means he's 20 years older than me
09:04SPEAKEROh, man, that means
09:06SPEAKERepisodes a year times 20, huh? That's a thousand episodes
09:11SPEAKERMm-hmm, right one two. Yeah, I think we can get through this in the next thousand episodes. Okay. All right challenge accepted
09:20SPEAKERWe need to figure out where we're going with it this week though. Yeah, so the story this farm we've made a list
09:25SPEAKERWe've had we have three rules. The rules are any and all selection criteria are important here
09:30SPEAKERThere's a period of adding new entries at any time. Yes. This is not a popularity contest. Hmm. Wait a minute. Hang on
09:37SPEAKERI'm not sure. I'm not sure rules one and three are compatible
09:41SPEAKERWell, I'm just saying it doesn't have to be a popular. I mean, I think that I think that I think that precludes I think rule three
09:49SPEAKERprecludes
09:50SPEAKERRemoval due to unpopularity. Okay. Okay, sure
09:55SPEAKERSure. Yes. Okay. I'm with you. Right, right. Like I'm saying is we can't say oh
10:01SPEAKERWell, because word star wasn't very popular compared to WordPress. Yeah, we don't like WordPress wins here. Absolutely. Yeah agreed
10:08SPEAKEROkay should so should word star go on the list. Yeah word star should absolutely be on the list. That was my next one
10:12SPEAKERYeah, fuck. Yeah, we're sort of the first word processor
10:15SPEAKERWhat I don't know if I've ever used or even seen we probably haven't because word perfect immediately knocked them off and did a better
10:21SPEAKERJob marketing I word perfect is how I learned to type. Yes
10:24SPEAKERI learned to type with with Mavis beacon teaches typing really I believe so. Yes
10:32SPEAKERYou know what that's not true I learned to type with the lambda mu on
10:36SPEAKERon on on
10:39SPEAKERShell account and like I think that's that's I learned to type playing quake one
10:43SPEAKERSo I could tell my friends by the people I was playing with
10:47SPEAKERWhere where we were being pushed on q3 q1 dm3. That's that's way more hardcore. Yeah
10:55SPEAKERI had a high school keyboard in class
10:57SPEAKERI had to drop the high school keyboard in class because the woman was mean and she was gonna give me a B and I
11:02SPEAKERDidn't want to be a B a B a B was unacceptable. I had always Brad Wow
11:07SPEAKERI had one B and Mildred reader gave me a B the second semester of my sophomore English class Mildred
11:15SPEAKERYeah
11:16SPEAKERWell, she was on she was Mildred was not in good health
11:18SPEAKERBut hadn't told anyone and she was especially hard on the class that year
11:22SPEAKEREspecially the people that she found to be underperforming their potential. Wait, you were underperforming your typing potential
11:29SPEAKERNo, this was an English class. So she she felt my look
11:32SPEAKERShe wanted me to use more flowery adverbs and I told her I didn't believe in adverbs and then she gave me a B
11:39SPEAKEROkay
11:40SPEAKERthat's what I learned taking a stand against power was a futile effort and that's why I
11:46SPEAKERYeah, anyway
11:49SPEAKERThanks, Mildred. That's why I was going to UT you're welcome. I hope you're happy
11:53SPEAKERbutter butterfly flaps its wings in Singapore
11:57SPEAKERMildred gives you a B like ultimately she probably saved me a good hundred hundred and fifty grand. So thanks Mildred
12:02SPEAKERThe downstream effects of small of small events are unforeseeable
12:07SPEAKERMildred reader and Ashton Kutcher hosed me. Okay, so I put I don't know if you were joking
12:12SPEAKERI put word star on the list here. Fuck. Yeah word stars on the list interesting
12:16SPEAKERThe screenshot of word star for DOS kind of looks like nano
12:20SPEAKERFor we are Nick's is what a weird coincidence. It's like it's almost as if there's an epitome like a
12:26SPEAKERMolecular base level of all word processors. Uh-huh. Okay, so we should we run down the list of what we have right now
12:32SPEAKERThis is not in any particular order
12:34SPEAKERYes is more or less in the order we put it except for we moved a couple things around before we decided to not
12:39SPEAKERPut it in any particular order
12:40SPEAKERSo number one, we have the Linux kernel number two Netscape navigator number three Super Mario Brothers
12:46SPEAKERI know you've been an escape navigator 2.0. Oh, sorry 2.0. Yes. Yes. Yes
12:51SPEAKERfree BSD
12:52SPEAKERnotepad
12:53SPEAKERvideo toaster steam the lamp stack win amp music match jukebox napster Nutella with the G
13:02SPEAKERMiRC Photoshop quake Super Mario 64 and word star, you know, we didn't talk about MiRC
13:09SPEAKERWe we talked about iRC we waxed nostalgic about usenet and then I briefly said like oh well
13:15SPEAKERIf we're talking protocols then iRC is pretty awesome
13:18SPEAKERAnd then you put an M on the front as you should that's true because I mean if there's one iRC client of record
13:23SPEAKEREspecially for Windows, it's MiRC. I mean, it's still going
13:25SPEAKERI mean it was MiRC MiRC and then the people who are logged in with shell accounts had bitch X was what my memory was
13:31SPEAKERI think iRC 2 is the one I always heard about
13:34SPEAKERThat was later. That would have been way later though. I think is it
13:37SPEAKERYeah, bitch X would have been the like mid 90s. Probably. I thought iRC 2 I think is very old Oh
13:43SPEAKER89 I think iRC 2 is as old as iRC. Okay. Anyway, well also also before that people were running egg drops and
13:52SPEAKERWell, I mean, yeah crazy bots if you had a Unix shell account that stayed alive when you were logged out
13:57SPEAKERYou could do all sorts of evil things at iRC. Oh, yeah, that's all I knew and I never had one
14:01SPEAKERI was always jealous
14:01SPEAKERI absolutely like that's kind of that might be my first exposure to like the world of Unix and thinking Unix is cool
14:08SPEAKERthat's is yeah getting on iRC in the mid 90s from Windows 95 on a PPP dial-up connection and
14:14SPEAKERGoing how these people that get to idle all day in this channel are awesome
14:20SPEAKERThis person's running a bot in here. That's cool, man
14:22SPEAKERI wish I could do that but boy would my parent my dad shoot me if I left the phone connected all night
14:26SPEAKERI had an ISDN line
14:29SPEAKERThat let me it was you know
14:30SPEAKERYou had two channels so I could call and be on data at the same time
14:34SPEAKERYou blues have your bandwidth when somebody called you acceptable trade-off
14:38SPEAKERYeah
14:38SPEAKERIt was fine and it meant that I could weather a lot of net splits like the start would kick off all the modem people
14:44SPEAKERIt would be me and like three people on t1s in the in the big channels. I'm telling you man
14:49SPEAKERlike
14:50SPEAKERSome of the channel wars that happened on iRC around that time. Oh, yeah our
14:56SPEAKERWere more fun and more memorable than any video game I have ever played because it was like it was like a social game
15:01SPEAKERIt was like a social technological game
15:04SPEAKERlike I I don't know that I can describe the details very effectively at this point because it's been 25 years, but yeah, but
15:10SPEAKERHappened what would happen is different servers on the same iRC network would kind of lose sync with each other or lose connection for lane
15:17SPEAKERTwo minutes, maybe sometimes. Yeah, not but but long enough for there to exist two versions of the same channel on different servers
15:23SPEAKERYeah, and then when they would kind of rejoin each other
15:27SPEAKERessentially whoever joins a channel first on iRC has ops and ops means you can set the topic you can kick and ban people
15:34SPEAKERSet all the modes etc, etc
15:36SPEAKERso like somebody somebody could go and join your channel if it didn't exist on one of these split servers and then they would have
15:41SPEAKERcontrol the channel when everything kind of synced back up and like
15:46SPEAKERAlso being in a popular video games channel in the 90s that would get like shit talked on usenet a lot
15:50SPEAKERWe had we had enemies
15:52SPEAKERlike there were there were assholes there were like drive-by assholes who would come in and like scream about how the Saturn ruled and
15:57SPEAKERthe PlayStation sucked and
16:00SPEAKEREverybody was an asshole and then they would get banned and then they would get pissy because you know, it was just like forums drama
16:04SPEAKEROkay, you know, you know how people get when they get banned they can hold a grudge
16:08SPEAKERYeah, they go usually they go jump jump on Mastodon and then they complain about Elon Musk being a dick bag
16:15SPEAKERAnd yeah, it's all downhill from there, right?
16:18SPEAKERand so you would have people carrying grudges who would then like try to take over your channel and so channel takeovers and like
16:24SPEAKERHaving to you literally had like social engineer sometimes trying to get ops from these people to get your channel back and stuff like that
16:29SPEAKERIt was it was a wild exhilarating thing. So this is a digression
16:33SPEAKERbut I
16:35SPEAKERfeel like a game of Neptune's pride with a lot of people who are in different time zones is gonna give you the same kind
16:41SPEAKERof form drama that that you had on net splits on
16:45SPEAKERearly early
16:47SPEAKERIRC I ended up being them that mod the the admin of or the the I guess the owner of
16:53SPEAKERpound quake which was the
16:55SPEAKERLet's talk about quake channel where John Romero and it guys would occasionally come in and drop drop tips
17:00SPEAKERJust for just as a result of a split for about six minutes. Was that f-net f-net? Yeah, if that kind of quake f-net was like I
17:08SPEAKERThink arguably the worst IRC network, but I think also the biggest it was almost certainly the biggest it was it was enormous
17:15SPEAKERYeah, they were always. Yeah, it had a lot of technical problems that better networks did not but yet we continued to use it
17:21SPEAKERWell, it had technical problems. I think because it was big and everybody was running it on like servers in the closet
17:25SPEAKERAnyway, it doesn't matter. Yeah fair fair there. I mean there were things they couldn't do the things like Dalnet could but anyway
17:30SPEAKERSo do we feel like M IRC goes on this list?
17:32SPEAKERWe feel like we put something else there because I feel like nope. I think I think no protocols is a fair
17:38SPEAKERYeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. I mean they are kind of technically software but look Fred
17:45SPEAKERWe finished this project. We can always go back and rank the protocols later fair fair. Okay, HTTPs
17:51SPEAKERHTTPS number one, that's what I'm saying. That's my prediction. I don't know about that
17:56SPEAKERGopher number two go first go for deserves better. Yeah. Yeah, let's leave M IRC on here
18:01SPEAKERI mean, you know compared compared to the kind of shell command-line accounts. It was not as capable. I
18:08SPEAKERusually used my shell account to talk to IRC when I had a but I had a PPP connection, but in IRC is what we
18:15SPEAKERHad basically I I did I did look for other clients occasionally. I switched to zircon for a while
18:20SPEAKEROh, yeah, zircon was good. I started with an X. It was it was it was
18:25SPEAKERjust get it through it was
18:28SPEAKERTCL
18:30SPEAKERDoes that make sense? Is that what it sounds right?
18:34SPEAKERBut that client never got finished. I'm sure nobody cares about this but me I
18:38SPEAKERThink there were a lot of like hey, here's window like you think about it by this point there were robust
18:44SPEAKERrobust offerings in like the Unix space that were then easily ported over to Linux when as Linux was beginning to rise and
18:52SPEAKERA lot of the windows clients were like hey
18:55SPEAKERThis is my senior project at school
18:57SPEAKERAnd as soon as they went and got a job at Alta Vista or something
19:00SPEAKERThen then suddenly the the work on the senior project disappeared. Yes. Okay. Yes, sir. Con
19:07SPEAKER1.0 beta 4 in 1997 was the last release whoever it was that made this never finished it
19:12SPEAKERBut you could you could you could it was a scriptable IRC client through TCL which pronounced tickle. Oh
19:18SPEAKERYeah, I love a tickle I guess
19:21SPEAKERalso
19:22SPEAKERWhat was Alta Vista its own company? I thought it was owned by like digital or somebody
19:26SPEAKERWell DC was Alta Vista right or Lycos. I can't remember one of those was owned by DC
19:32SPEAKERAlta Vista
19:33SPEAKERHeadquartered in Palo Alto founded in 1995. Yeah, it was owned by digital DC. So here's a question for you
19:40SPEAKERIs a googler is Google software Brad? Oh, man. Oh, man. What a question. Holy crap
19:47SPEAKERAnd I'm not talking like in this context. I'm not talking about Google the company. I'm talking about
19:53SPEAKERGoogle the search engine. Yes. I'm a hundred percent picking up what you're putting down
19:57SPEAKERWe're talking we're talking the experience of going to google.com around the year 2000 2001. Uh-huh
20:04SPEAKERMan, that's god. That's hard to refute actually because it literally changed the way you used the internet
20:09SPEAKERYeah, I mean search engines were kind of I mean they were search engines were useful tools. Yeah
20:16SPEAKERThat's exactly it. I was I started to say like search engines were useless before Google
20:20SPEAKERbut that's not fair at all like they did they did help but
20:23SPEAKERWell, so before Google and even in the early days of Google being good at using Google search engine was an incredibly powerful skill as
20:30SPEAKERa journalist like I when I started at ours in 98 being good at using let it Lycos and meta crawler and and
20:37SPEAKERThe the weird search engines that would be like four different frames of four different search engines
20:43SPEAKERYou put one keyword in and it popped up the results on all four pages
20:46SPEAKEROh, wow
20:46SPEAKERThat was a superpower right here
20:49SPEAKERlike knowing how to use those and extract information and what kind of information to look for on Yahoo, which was all still manual at
20:54SPEAKERthat point or
20:56SPEAKERYou know hot hot hot spot or whatever not hot hot. What was the one that ended up being owned by wired oddly?
21:03SPEAKERWhat I don't know
21:06SPEAKERAnyway, hang on now
21:08SPEAKERLike now I'm looking for a list of old search engines
21:12SPEAKERYeah, but the upshot is Google came out and and the page maybe it maybe I mean the page rank algorithm is maybe the thing
21:19SPEAKERTo put here, but the page rank algorithm which said basically hey, it doesn't matter
21:25SPEAKERlike the number of links into a page is a good indicator of its relative worth and popularity now is
21:33SPEAKERHas that held for the last 20 years less less so every day like us the current valid validity and value of Google's search
21:42SPEAKERSearch spam filtering is basically nil. Yeah, it's gotten
21:46SPEAKERuseless deep well
21:48SPEAKERAlmost useless. Maybe maybe I don't I don't is accurate to say it's gotten bad
21:52SPEAKEROr is it more that people have just learned how to game it so badly that well, okay
21:57SPEAKERSo for the first 15 years, they actively worked against I'm sure they're still actively working
22:00SPEAKERyes, this is probably just the problem has gotten too complicated to for like a finite number of people to defeat an infinite number of
22:07SPEAKERpeople but like the the there's a thing that happens now that a specific kind of blog spam is like
22:15SPEAKERYou search for something and then it's like it do you what do what is it about keyword?
22:20SPEAKERDo you know the solution to keyword in 2022 and then there's a bunch of nonsense and then?
22:26SPEAKERBut it's it's like weirdly machine generated nonsense that sometimes has sometimes has the actual information
22:32SPEAKERIt's it's really frustrating those those filler pages rarely have any actual information in my experience
22:39SPEAKERUsually a giant waste of time
22:40SPEAKERwe get but but like the problem is usually they have just enough that you get the
22:44SPEAKERThe preview and it has something that looks good in it and it doesn't let you differentiate so they get clicks
22:50SPEAKERYeah, anyway, there's a mix there's some like, you know, if you google like say a lot of Windows problems
22:54SPEAKERYou'll you'll start to recognize there's some sites like how to geek and Windows Central and some of those have actual solutions and actual information
23:01SPEAKERBut they surface in the middle of all of those
23:04SPEAKERLike a god-awful dummy pages that have absolutely zero that actually I think our machine generated
23:09SPEAKERBut but we lost the thread here. What is to is Google software this feels this almost feels like cheating
23:16SPEAKERBut if I were to write it down, I feel like I would write
23:19SPEAKERGoogle comm circa 2001 or or like the page rank 1.0 or something like that
23:25SPEAKERMaybe like that would be the entry on this list
23:27SPEAKERI guess and part of that is just because Google is so big and sprawling now, and we're not talking about that
23:31SPEAKERWe're talking about
23:32SPEAKERWhat it did for searching the internet in around the turn of the century
23:37SPEAKERHmm
23:39SPEAKERHmm they did they publicly use the term page rank that only did they did they were they pretty open about like how the algorithm
23:44SPEAKERI think that it existed. I think page rank was actually the name of the of the the senior thesis that it was based on
23:52SPEAKEROh, I didn't know that it came out of academic anything
23:55SPEAKERYeah, they were there but at Stanford was that brand Sergei and Larry?
24:00SPEAKERRight page Larry page
24:04SPEAKERYeah, it is his name
24:07SPEAKERHuh
24:08SPEAKERYeah, so I'm sorry. I just went to the page rank Wikipedia page to see what they had and under history
24:14SPEAKERThe eigenvalue problem behind page ranks algorithm was independently rediscovered and reused in many scoring problems in 1895
24:21SPEAKERMm-hmm
24:23SPEAKEREdmund Landau, no, we don't need to keep going. But apparently yes, there's a lot of probably a lot of sorting
24:29SPEAKERResearch behind that stuff that goes way back
24:32SPEAKERThey developed page rank at Stanford in 1996 as part of a research project about a new kind of search engine, huh? Okay
24:40SPEAKERYeah, I'm writing google.com at the turn of the century
24:47SPEAKEROkay, so I'd slash page rank that on there because I think page rank was the thing
24:52SPEAKERlike obviously there very quickly became much more to Google than just page rank, but
24:57SPEAKERBut but page rate like like the idea that the idea that inbound links were more important than anything else was
25:05SPEAKERwas the
25:07SPEAKERLike that was the that was the big jump sure. Yeah, I I put google.com here
25:12SPEAKERJust because that was the end-user experience at the time of getting that into your browser. That's fair
25:18SPEAKERYou got anything else, what are you feeling about when you hide I I feel like I'm like I'm spoiled for choice and like
25:25SPEAKERExperiencing analysis paralysis now at this point we whipped through so many good ones last week
25:31SPEAKEROh, there's an infinity of good ones left. That's that's what I'm saying. Okay, here's one that I don't know if we said this either
25:36SPEAKERWe said it either off air or on last week's episode, but I think it's inevitable
25:41SPEAKERFFmpeg yeah hundred percent like that. It's no contest pretty hard to deny how foundational that thing is
25:49SPEAKERYeah continues to be and it's pretty old. It's like 20 years old at this point
25:52SPEAKERIt turns out video is important and FFmpeg is important to video and audio compressed in a way that it works on over the internets
26:00SPEAKERI don't I don't know if they refer to it themselves as the Swiss Army knife of media or is that something other people have described?
26:07SPEAKERBut either way, it's absolutely the case that is that is what it is. Yeah
26:12SPEAKERNot not just as a command line utility, which is extremely flexible although incredibly arcane
26:17SPEAKERBut it's very very powerful once you get your head around it, but also just as a library that is used by endless like endless
26:25SPEAKERAV applications. Yeah, I think I think that's the like if you look at FFmpeg
26:29SPEAKERIs isn't it the backbone for handbrake and a bazillion other things to hand I believe handbrake. Yes
26:35SPEAKERPlex I believe like as you said yeah, so I think there's Linux server
26:39SPEAKERI can sit there and watch the process list as Plex does things and I'm pretty sure you see
26:43SPEAKERFFmpeg processes spawn if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, I had that on my list like everything you can think of that does that does AV
26:52SPEAKERUses it in some capacity not everything but a lot
26:55SPEAKERWhat about what about explorer dot exe?
26:59SPEAKERBrad I
27:01SPEAKERThink that came up before we start recording
27:03SPEAKERI was like I was like I was like I'm staring at my desktop trying to think of some other software and you were like you
27:08SPEAKERWere like the desktop is software and I was like, okay, maybe
27:12SPEAKERWell, explorer dot exe is definitely software. I don't know that I would say it's good software. I
27:18SPEAKERHave I have a very love-hate relationship with the windows graphical shell
27:22SPEAKERI'm gonna say anything that you use as much as you use the windows graphical shell
27:27SPEAKERYou're gonna be much more aware of the things that is bad at than the things it is good at
27:31SPEAKERYeah, but I also feel like it is the prime example of the kind of Microsoft legacy cruft model
27:37SPEAKERwell, that's true like
27:40SPEAKERYou know, that's also represented in the fact that the old control panel still exists despite like five efforts to purge it
27:46SPEAKERThat that is that is true. There's a lot of very old stuff that hangs around in Windows at a user experience level
27:54SPEAKERAnd I feel like a lot of that is represented in the way that desktop and the shell and Explorer work
27:59SPEAKERDid we not put Windows 95 on the list you?
28:03SPEAKERWe kind of we kind of heard we kind of mealy-mouthed that one where I think you said 16-bit windows
28:09SPEAKERAnd then we started going like well is is Windows 98 included in that? What does that mean? I
28:15SPEAKERThink we should have entries for I mean honestly if we're if we're really gonna do this thing
28:20SPEAKERThat we're now to almost two hours into uh-huh
28:25SPEAKEROf the rest of our lives. Oh boy
28:27SPEAKERI think we should just put all the versions of windows on here and the bad ones will be at the bottom of the list
28:32SPEAKERAnd the guns will be at the top of the list
28:33SPEAKERWell, look somebody somebody went and did the work for us because we have this list of the top ten when the best windows ever
28:40SPEAKERRight. Yeah, so does that mean Windows 7 has to be on here? I think
28:45SPEAKERif
28:46SPEAKERBut it's transitive proper though by the law of transitive properties
28:49SPEAKERI believe that a list with of software windows is software if if if we already decided Windows 7 is the best windows
28:56SPEAKERThen if there's a windows on here, it has to be 7. Correct. So that's the bones of our that's the bones of our list
29:01SPEAKERNow we have to decide what's better or worse than Windows 7. That's right
29:06SPEAKERHmm it's assuming we feel like the last list was generated with a valid process and is still relevant in 2022
29:12SPEAKERThat's fair. But also, you know what? No, like let's this is this list is its own list. It has its own its own criteria
29:18SPEAKEROkay, I think I think I think we're gonna get in trouble
29:22SPEAKERYes, I know that list was a lot more just like which windows is better than which other windows. Yeah, that's true
29:28SPEAKERI feel like this is so much more comprehensive and a little more rooted in history that like I
29:32SPEAKERCould see a Windows 98 outranking a Windows 7 on a list like this. So here's my question for you then is is
29:39SPEAKERExplorer contained within Windows. Mm-hmm
29:44SPEAKERBecause it is a part of the larger package. Like are we going to pull notepad? Are we gonna pull it pull Explorer DXE?
29:50SPEAKERI'm gonna pull task manager out
29:54SPEAKERLike if I were making a list right now
29:55SPEAKERI would put the Windows 11 task manager at the very bottom of the list the very worst piece of software of all time
30:01SPEAKERSomething that was wonderful and good and made it slow and shitty. Is it is it is it different?
30:08SPEAKERIt's the first major redesign since like Windows XP probably. Oh, it's not just the same as Windows 10
30:13SPEAKERNo is slow because I think the the Windows 10 task manager is still decent, right?
30:17SPEAKERthe Windows 10 task manager is is a
30:19SPEAKERPerfect child as far as I'm concerned the Windows 11 task manager is the kind of kid that like lights like like
30:26SPEAKERHuff's gasoline and then lights the fumes on fire to see what to see if they burn and that's unfortunate
30:31SPEAKERI hadn't like I mostly have not upgraded
30:34SPEAKERwell, I can't upgrade to Windows 11 on this PC, but like I mostly had not cared about Windows 11 out of inertia not out not
30:39SPEAKERout of any like
30:41SPEAKERPrincipled opposition to upgrading but that's the first thing I think I've heard about Windows 11 that actually makes me think like it
30:47SPEAKERSo I want it
30:48SPEAKERIt's I just got the 21 a new update the other day and it's possible that they fixed the problem
30:54SPEAKERBut it used to take a shockingly long time to load on my i9
30:57SPEAKERInteresting. It also could be the new computers really fast. Yeah
31:02SPEAKERSomebody the person who wrote task manager was either tweeting about it or wrote a blog about it or something a year or two ago
31:09SPEAKERDid you see that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I forget. I wish I could find that
31:12SPEAKERI've maybe maybe somebody on the discord can help me dig it up like
31:16SPEAKERthere there are if I remember there are things about task manager that still exist kind of outside of the I
31:21SPEAKERDon't know the standard Windows process model or something like that
31:24SPEAKERlike there there are still
31:25SPEAKERThere are still like safeguards in there or things about the way it's designed that ensure that it can be accessible even in the event
31:31SPEAKEROf like a catastrophic failure with the rest of the OS. Yeah, you can launch it without Explorer running and all sorts of crazy stuff
31:36SPEAKERYeah, right like there. There's some really interesting stuff. I I will say the best thing they ever added to task
31:41SPEAKERManager is the ability to right-click
31:43SPEAKERExplorer in the list and just hit restart. Oh, yeah
31:48SPEAKERThat one in the ability to jump straight to the file when you have an offending file to see what to see where it is
31:54SPEAKERIs really good. So like you can jump straight to the file location when you right-click a process now
31:59SPEAKERThe other thing is that they put startup the startup apps in there
32:04SPEAKERYes, and it's it's not just the windows 8 plus Metro apps. It's not just the the GDI apps
32:10SPEAKERIt's everything everything which is really nice task manager
32:15SPEAKERMaybe not withstanding Windows 11 task manager is pretty good this this I haven't I haven't spent a lot of time in the last couple
32:21SPEAKERWeeks, it feels better. I did just do a big update on Windows 11. So maybe they fixed the problem
32:26SPEAKERbut um, I'm skeptical I
32:30SPEAKERMmm, I'm tempted to write task manager on this list. Actually. Hang on to step back
32:35SPEAKERyou had a larger question like yeah, and if I understood the question were you saying like
32:39SPEAKERIf we have a whole last windows on here, then we shouldn't have things like Explorer and notepad
32:44SPEAKERI was just asking the question. I don't have strong. I don't know that I have a well-developed feeling about whether
32:50SPEAKERYou know the collective
32:52SPEAKERAnd the whole and the individual parts should be I I feel like probably for a list this expansive and broad
32:59SPEAKERWe should allow both
33:00SPEAKEROh, yeah
33:01SPEAKERabsolutely
33:01SPEAKERMy was my guiding principle for making lists and ranking them is that lists are arbitrary nonsense and therefore we can do whatever the hell
33:09SPEAKERWe want just think of the BuzzFeed article. We're gonna get out of this when we're done ranking of software all of it. That's right
33:14SPEAKERHey, look, it's entirely possible that notepad despite being contained in Windows is better than Windows itself. I mean, I think
33:21SPEAKERLook if you want to talk about notepad as an atomic piece of software
33:25SPEAKERIt has been consistently good. Not great, but good. Like it's a solid middle of the road for me
33:31SPEAKERIt does it does what it says it does basically
33:35SPEAKERWhich is maybe more more than you can say about other windows. Well, the asterisk is
33:41SPEAKERIf the line endings for your file have to be right or else it does not do what it says it does
33:46SPEAKERYes going back and forth between Linux and Windows a lot these days. I have become well acquainted with the DOS to Unix
33:53SPEAKERutility yeah that converts the line endings between
33:56SPEAKERDOS style Unix style
33:59SPEAKERYeah, it seems like sometimes you'll edit a config file in Windows and then save it out
34:04SPEAKERAnd then the thing that uses the config can't read it anymore because the line endings are now messed up. Yes encoding is weird
34:11SPEAKERYep, you'd think that we could have fixed that when we switch from ASCII to Unicode, but nope
34:16SPEAKEROkay, so we've added so far four things to the list so far in the first 37 minutes of this podcast
34:22SPEAKEROkay, I feel like we're maintaining the pace we expected
34:28SPEAKERWhat about uh, what about pac-man?
34:32SPEAKERMmm, what about pac-man? I I can't justify this
34:36SPEAKERI don't know if I have a good rationale for this, but I feel like the more games
34:41SPEAKERThat show up on here the more resistant. I'm going to become to games showing up on here. Hmm
34:46SPEAKERI don't know. I don't know if I can explain that but I
34:50SPEAKERLike pac-man to me is either pac-man or maybe Donkey Kong like games of that era are are
34:56SPEAKERProbably the first computer software that most people saw
34:59SPEAKEROkay
35:00SPEAKERYou know
35:00SPEAKERIt's the first time somebody interacted with a thing it was either that or the telephone switching network are the first computers that they interacted
35:07SPEAKERwith right
35:08SPEAKERWe're talking about a time where a digital pocket computer a digital calculator was was a rarity
35:14SPEAKERAnd most most adding machines were analog still in a lot of cases or or they were brand
35:20SPEAKERYou know a a desktop paper tape calculator was a new
35:25SPEAKERNew innovative device at that point. I mean, hang on. Let's let's take stock of okay
35:30SPEAKERThe other games on this list already are Super Mario Brothers
35:34SPEAKERYes version. Yes
35:36SPEAKERquake and Super Mario 64
35:39SPEAKERYeah, and I I think I think like look realistically
35:42SPEAKERI think doom is probably or doom or Wolfenstein one of the other are probably also on this list
35:45SPEAKERI had I had I'm just gonna write doom I had avoided and I know I talked about doom and quake way too much
35:50SPEAKERSo I had avoided bring it up, but I just wrote it down
35:52SPEAKERI also think that probably Ultima Online or EverQuest or Wow is on this list. Okay, let's
35:59SPEAKERTable the video games for a little bit. Okay. Okay. Okay. There's still software bread. Here we go
36:04SPEAKERYeah, I have I have the best antidote to this problem. Yeah, I'm gonna type it in here
36:10SPEAKERAre you making a sub list for games? I've written down gorilla bass. What is gorilla bass?
36:15SPEAKERWhat I'm sorry, sir, what look I am I'm how everybody has gaps Brad
36:22SPEAKERYou of all people you had more access to early or mid period DOS than I did at this time. I
36:29SPEAKERDon't know about gorilla bass
36:31SPEAKERGorilla bass is a basic program
36:35SPEAKERIncluded with versions of NS DOS starting at 5.0. Is it a game?
36:39SPEAKERIt was just in there in the install and yes because you remember you could you could write basic in DOS, right?
36:44SPEAKERDos dos came never ever I did not know that actually wait, really no
36:50SPEAKERQ basic, I believe I am this is this could be wrong didn't didn't they like buy Q basic and
36:57SPEAKERIncluded in DOS as this was during the m dollar sign period of Microsoft's history. I believe that's possible
37:04SPEAKERI don't know what the history is. But yes, there was there was a basic
37:08SPEAKERCompiler, what would you call it interpreter interpreter? Yeah, you could you could you could write and run basic programs in DOS
37:14SPEAKERThat's a trip. I think I think it was literally Q basic dot exe
37:19SPEAKERWas the thing?
37:21SPEAKERYes, that's right. Anyway, gorilla bass gorilla was concluded with DOS as a kind of sample basic program
37:26SPEAKERBut it's also it's also a game that is much like worms where two gorillas are standing on
37:33SPEAKERA kind of field of skyscrapers and you enter kind of angles and velocities to throw bananas at each other
37:40SPEAKERWow, let's try to hit each other. And I think it I think they would like blow up chunks of building if I'm not mistaken
37:46SPEAKERWow, I just had no idea very much a rudimentary little little worms clone kind of thing, but it was a free video game
37:54SPEAKERyeah, and
37:56SPEAKERit was potentially a gateway to
38:01SPEAKERProgramming for a lot of people because you could just open the program and look at it and try to figure out how it worked
38:07SPEAKERI can I can get behind like look. I'm not gonna say no to anything at this point at the
38:12SPEAKERLike worst cases it ends up at the bottom of the list
38:14SPEAKERIt's I guess far as I'm concerned anything we talk about is probably on the list fair. We're not making it ten
38:19SPEAKERWe're not making an arbitrary list. This is this is this is the list capital T capital L
38:25SPEAKERSure, you should just oh here did I just find it on archive that'll work. Of course you think I think I did
38:29SPEAKERI really just want to pull up the source file and look at it and see here it is
38:34SPEAKERI found it dated 1993 on archive org. I have opened it. I'm opening it
38:39SPEAKERI like I like this this has opened a whole door of other like does hunt the Wumpus land here
38:45SPEAKERWhat about Oregon Trail are we putting?
38:48SPEAKERYou know the the math blasters the bangers of edutainment from the mid 80s and earlier
38:55SPEAKEREarly 90s on here. I just said I wasn't gonna let this devolve into a list of video games
39:00SPEAKERAnd now here we go. I'm now I'm very tight and tempted to type Oregon Trail does math blasters
39:05SPEAKERDoes this matter is does Mavis Beacon or Carmen Sandiego? Do they have a place on this list? I hang on. Yes. Hello
39:11SPEAKERMavis Mavis
39:15SPEAKERVoice module in my computer when I was playing Mavis Beacon, so I don't know I didn't either
39:18SPEAKERI just I always thought it was Mavis Mavis Beacon. Look, I'm not gonna I'm not here to I'm not here to judge pronunciations
39:24SPEAKERI'm just here to judge the relative validity of software against other software. Oh, man
39:29SPEAKERI'm here. I'm looking I'm looking at the source for gorilla da bass as we speak. Yeah
39:34SPEAKERI don't think I ever thought in the day to open the source file and look through it
39:39SPEAKERI don't think I would I have I didn't really have much of a concept of
39:43SPEAKERSource code at the age of 13 or whatever
39:47SPEAKERIt's really funny because I did a ton of that when I was in like fourth third fourth fifth grades when I was using the Apple
39:53SPEAKER2 or the TI's at school and then by the time I got a PC it didn't occur to me. Yeah
39:59SPEAKERThere were too many games. Well, we had we had
40:02SPEAKERIn those early days there were a lot of books that you would get that were like hey solve a mystery by writing a software
40:08SPEAKERProgram and you can either write the program yourself or you could copy it out of the back of the book if you didn't understand
40:12SPEAKERHow to write the software yourself. Oh, yes. Yes. That's that era is well known and somewhat romanticized. I think for good reason
40:18SPEAKERIt was it was a good time. Yeah, that stuff's cool. Okay
40:22SPEAKERYou got anything? That's not a video game. Yeah. What about Corel draw?
40:26SPEAKERCorel draw man. That's a name. I haven't heard in a very long time still of just still a
40:31SPEAKERShipping piece of software to daily. Yeah. Oh, wow. So girl Corel draw was a vector was one of the early vector drawing apps
40:39SPEAKERIt was it was the vector equivalent to Photoshop
40:41SPEAKERBut the neat thing about Corel draw was because it was for vector and layout you could you could say, okay
40:48SPEAKERI have a dye sublimation my experience my early exposure to Corel draw was
40:53SPEAKERMy parents bought a dye sublimation printer for their business that you could print
40:58SPEAKERlike high temperature heat transfer
41:00SPEAKERFor color on and then make custom printed t-shirts with computer-generated designs, huh?
41:07SPEAKERokay, so people would send us their art and we would lay it out and we would we would crop it and put borders around
41:14SPEAKERAnd all that stuff in Photoshop and then lay it out in Corel draw
41:17SPEAKERSo it's the right size and print it out on a dye sub print so you could I do iron-ons
41:23SPEAKERLike like they were good iron-ons. They held up really well. Okay, interesting
41:27SPEAKERI had I heard the name Corel draw back in the day, but yeah, I had no idea what it was
41:32SPEAKERSo it was the dawn of print-on-demand for us
41:35SPEAKERBut but like but as a as a tool it also came with an enormous clip art library
41:41SPEAKERSo like if you it's kind of the successor to print shop Pro in a lot of ways
41:46SPEAKERIt was a more expensive piece of software and designed for professionals. Not not, you know
41:51SPEAKERLike printing school banners and stuff like that. Do you mean do you mean paint shop Pro? No, I mean print shop Pro
41:58SPEAKERSo print shop Pro. Oh boy. Here we go. Okay, these should both be on the list right?
42:02SPEAKERDo you mean do you mean the print shop professional by broader bond? Yes. It was a it was a
42:09SPEAKERPrinting app for like Apple to error computers and on some DOS stuff to probably and what you could do with it
42:16SPEAKERIs if you had a dot matrix printer, you could print
42:19SPEAKERbanners that were as long as your piece of dot matrix printer paper was
42:24SPEAKEROkay, you cuz dot matrix printers were folded stacks where the the the top end was connected to the bottom end of the previous sheet
42:32SPEAKERYou're giving me
42:34SPEAKERYou're giving me severe flashbacks to like public grade school library
42:39SPEAKERGiant giant dot matrix banners of perforated paper spread hung in the library
42:45SPEAKERReading corner, you'd peel the printed the the the the the tracks, you know
42:50SPEAKERThe dot matrix had holes on the edges of the of the of the printouts or maybe you wouldn't you know
42:56SPEAKERDepending on the I mean your style
42:59SPEAKERDepending on how how much how fastidious your librarian was
43:04SPEAKERThe little golden hold punch hole tracks are kind of part of the charm to me of those of those big banners
43:10SPEAKEROh see, mrs. Burnett always pulled the punch hole tracks off
43:14SPEAKERBut but yeah
43:15SPEAKERSo you could make big long arbitrary length banners with that and it had a bunch of clip art and stuff like that
43:19SPEAKERAnd it corral draw was the professional
43:22SPEAKERlater on version of that of that I see concept but it but it was also one of the first things that came with the
43:28SPEAKERCD and it had CDs with literally thousands of vector images
43:32SPEAKERso if you search for corral draw corral draw
43:37SPEAKERclip art
43:39SPEAKERAnd search for like 1995
43:42SPEAKERyou'll find an archive org link with CDs full of clip art and
43:48SPEAKERThey are they are exceptional. They're very very good. I what happened to this Twitter bot did they purge their account?
43:55SPEAKEROh, man, so I've been following a 90s clip art Twitter bot for a while and you just made me go look at it
44:02SPEAKERAnd sure enough. It is a corral gallery 1994
44:05SPEAKERThey basically they had a CD this this bot just took a CD of corral clip art
44:10SPEAKERWell from the 90s and just tweets out like three of them a day or whatever
44:14SPEAKERBut it looks like they may have just purged all their tweets. I just said oh, no, I'm sorry. They weird
44:19SPEAKERThey're not showing up under tweets. They show up under replies
44:23SPEAKEREven though they don't appear to be anyway. I'm sorry. I'm rambling here
44:26SPEAKERBut I just sent you a link to a 1998 version of the same thing that has a hundred and forty thousand vector clip art
44:31SPEAKERimages in it
44:32SPEAKERmaybe I need to make a Twitter bot then because this one appears to be fallow and
44:37SPEAKERWhy don't you make a mastodon bot this world this where the world needs this clip art?
44:42SPEAKERokay, so
44:44SPEAKERAlright, let's let's let's take a pause here corral draw. I think corral draw goes on the list. I've written down here
44:50SPEAKERI'm actually on
44:52SPEAKERbroader bun calm looking at the print shop professional 6.4
44:56SPEAKERI didn't know that broader bun broder bun broder bun is what I said, but I have no idea
45:00SPEAKERI always said broder bun back in the day, but I thought that was wrong. Anyway, I didn't made I often made
45:06SPEAKERSoft vowel sounds hard. Mm-hmm. So fair or long. Yeah, I don't want we don't need to get into it
45:14SPEAKERAll right, broder bond owned by encore software now apparently, but of course, yeah still exists as a brand
45:21SPEAKERThey they also made I'm shocked they were speaking teachers typing
45:24SPEAKERThey made a lot of I feel like brother bond also made like after dark the screensaver with the toasters
45:30SPEAKERDid they I thought those Berkeley systems wasn't it? I think they bought Berkeley systems eventually or yes was made after dark was made by
45:38SPEAKERBerkeley systems, which
45:40SPEAKERWas acquired by I don't know Sierra Sierra. Oh, there you go. Sierra bought Berkeley
45:45SPEAKERSo here's a does print shop make the list. I mean I have zero experience or affinity for it
45:52SPEAKERSo you you tell me corral draw sounds maybe a little more important here
45:57SPEAKERI also wouldn't want I kind of want to talk about paint shop pro
46:00SPEAKERWe can I think paint shop prose is also a valid
46:04SPEAKERvalid entry for the list paint paint shop pro was the first like I don't even know if I could call it a Photoshop competitor because
46:10SPEAKERIt was vastly more limited
46:13SPEAKERBut it was crucially. I hope I'm not getting myself in trouble here
46:17SPEAKERI think it was free or at least there was a freeware version or a kind of unlimited trial version is a trial version
46:21SPEAKERI believe I think is what it was
46:22SPEAKERAnyway, it was like the first the first thing I remember that you could download that could do even a little bit of basic image
46:28SPEAKERediting
46:29SPEAKERYeah, that's right free
46:31SPEAKERWell paint paint which was built well does yeah
46:34SPEAKERBut this this was more like Photoshop light of like you can resize images
46:38SPEAKERyou can do some scaling on some some more basic or like more advanced like image editing not to paint paint's kind of like click your
46:45SPEAKERmouse and drag around and
46:47SPEAKERMake scribbles at least in that era
46:49SPEAKERYeah, at some point around I think the Windows 7 time frame paint got more capable and you could resize images and change formats and stuff
46:56SPEAKERBut yeah, yeah paint has gotten way better. Like if people didn't use paint in the early Windows days
47:00SPEAKERIt was it was basically a thing for making scribbles
47:03SPEAKERWell, you could you could make a shape you could put a circle around a part of an image you wanted people to look at
47:08SPEAKERYou could make some primitive shapes or whatever, but I don't know if I'd put PaintShop Pro on here
47:12SPEAKERThere's a lot of heavy hitters here. I I feel like I feel like
47:16SPEAKERIt's like I put gimp or something else ahead of PaintShop Pro maybe hmm. I
47:22SPEAKERDon't know. I tried I tried I tried I tried to use I tried to use gimp for a year or two
47:28SPEAKERRecently and then eventually bought affinity photo instead
47:32SPEAKERAffinity photo is pretty good. It's it's pretty good. It feels too new though
47:37SPEAKERCorelle just a real quick before we move on Corelle still exists Corelle was bought
47:42SPEAKERCorelle Corelle was one of those companies that never made enough money to not be bought by a billion other people and got transferred from
47:47SPEAKERCompany company until it's owned by probably by some holding company or something. They're not they're not called Corelle anymore
47:52SPEAKERThey actually just rebranded like last year this year. They are now called a Ludo
47:57SPEAKERIt's a terrible name. They are owned by something called Kohlberg Kravis Roberts
48:03SPEAKERYeah, holding company American global investment company great
48:08SPEAKERWow, there you should boy you should pull up this picture of their headquarters
48:13SPEAKERIs it just a generic looking office park? No, that might be the most evil looking skyscraper I have ever seen
48:20SPEAKERHmm. It looks like it's made to kill people. Well there we have show art
48:25SPEAKERYeah, is it the Batman Tower in Nashville?
48:27SPEAKERIt looks like it has a giant spike coming out of the top like it has it has like three spikes
48:31SPEAKERSo it looks like it's made for cutting things. Is there an Eye of Sauron up there? I don't know
48:36SPEAKERGo to the go can pull up Corelle on Wikipedia and then click their corporate owner and you'll find what I'm talking about. Anyway
48:43SPEAKERWhat about what about Lotus 1-2-3 Brad?
48:48SPEAKERHmm the turtle how about logo writer if we're talking turtles
48:52SPEAKERLogo writer might be the right the right the right one here Lotus 1-2-3 was the first spreadsheet though
48:57SPEAKEROh was it like the literal first I feel like was the first like consumer one
49:01SPEAKERWe're getting hot and heavy into some some early some 90s productivity software. This is actually 80s. Is it really?
49:10SPEAKERSo Lotus is an interesting one is one two three their original claim to fame
49:15SPEAKERBecause later, you know
49:16SPEAKERThere was Lotus notes and some other stuff like that Lotus 1-2-3 was the first killer application for the IBM PC according to Wikipedia
49:23SPEAKERIt significantly contributed the success of IBM PC compatibles in the business market
49:28SPEAKERthe first spreadsheet was busy calc which helped launch the Apple -
49:33SPEAKERbut I
49:34SPEAKERIBM there wasn't a version of busy kid. This is a story. We'll hear a lot as we talk about this stuff
49:39SPEAKERBusy calc did not release an IBM PC version fast enough and then they launched a straight port of their existing system
49:46SPEAKERDespite the fact that the IBM PC was a dramatically more capable computer than the Apple -
49:51SPEAKERAnd Lotus marketed a three-in-one integrated solution with spreadsheet calculations database functionality and graph
49:56SPEAKERThat was the beginning of people using its spreadsheets as databases Jesus, huh?
50:01SPEAKERThis should be fired into the Sun for that and graphical charts, which was why it was one two three
50:05SPEAKERSo spreadsheets database and graphical charts. Oh, wow, that did a lot. Okay. Um, so that was their first piece of software
50:12SPEAKERI do not know that it was their first piece of software, but I think it was
50:16SPEAKERBecause I remember I mean is Lotus defunct. Yes, it is, but I remember like was bought by IBM
50:22SPEAKEROkay, so like later on I remember Lotus had a whole giant suite that kind of competed with stuff like office, right?
50:27SPEAKERthere was like Lotus notes and
50:30SPEAKERWell, we have a Lotus Symphony Lotus Magellan Lotus Domino
50:34SPEAKERSo Domino agenda Dom my first job out of college was as a domino slash notes admin
50:40SPEAKERReally and and notes was notes was oddly ahead of its time in a weird way like the computers weren't fast enough to do
50:47SPEAKERWhat they were trying to do
50:49SPEAKERWith notes Ray Ozzie was the was the person
50:53SPEAKERwho drove that whole thing and
50:57SPEAKERit was like groupware in the same way that like
51:00SPEAKERMicrosoft's OneDrive slash outlook slash teams slash one note slash word and shared word like you
51:08SPEAKERNotes was a shared
51:10SPEAKERdatabase application where anybody could write into any field of the database at any time and and also
51:17SPEAKERDocument files and spreadsheets were database entries. So like those sound wildly ahead of its time for something that debuted in 1989
51:25SPEAKERYeah, the problem was everything was really really slow because the computers were nowhere near like the but neither the computers nor the network connections
51:32SPEAKERwere fast enough, but really like
51:35SPEAKERlike I was able to copy my Domino my Lotus Notes file that had all of my email and all my documents and all that stuff
51:41SPEAKERAnd sync it across my ISDN connection when I was at home or at work and it was it was it was super like it
51:46SPEAKERWorked super well Wow, it right up until the point that it didn't and then it was impossible to fix
51:50SPEAKERin later years was notes a competitor or something like office or I
51:55SPEAKERMean, that's what it started out as was as a competitor office
51:58SPEAKERThat's that was there that was there like their bet was that thin clients
52:02SPEAKERThey they kind of bet on thin clients except for they wrote a client software. That was really really heavy
52:08SPEAKERSure, if that makes sense, let me let me rephrase the question
52:10SPEAKERLike if would would you have worked at say a notes company or an outlook company?
52:15SPEAKERYou know what? I mean? Like it was it was the email back end that your company used, right? Yeah
52:19SPEAKERYeah, email document sharing right later on later on
52:23SPEAKERI remember having friends who've worked at companies that were a notes Lotus Notes company and complaining about it
52:27SPEAKERBut I would say the same thing about outlook
52:30SPEAKERYeah, like like the real kiss of death about no and this was before outlook was this was
52:36SPEAKERLike exchange server was new exchange server was there. It was Microsoft's response to notes and domino
52:42SPEAKEROkay, like domino was a was a server the problem
52:46SPEAKERfundamentally the problem was like this was in the time of like a Pentium 200 being a pretty fast computer and
52:52SPEAKERthe the the problem was
52:54SPEAKERThe server was heavy and the client was heavy
52:57SPEAKERso if you bought cheap computers for your people
53:00SPEAKERThen their experience getting email and all that stuff was going to be really slow. And also the email client was fucking terrible
53:06SPEAKERI'm like just really really bad
53:09SPEAKERso I don't think domino and notes as much as I have
53:14SPEAKERLike like I got I took that job despite it being a an admin role for domino and notes
53:20SPEAKERlike I was excited about doing the help desk work and learning about computers and IT stuff and all that the the
53:27SPEAKERNotes and domino was a choice that the people that were there before me had made that I thought was pretty foolish at the time
53:32SPEAKEROkay, I wrote down Lotus one, two, three, you made a pretty good case for that
53:38SPEAKERYeah, I think anytime we're talking about the killer app for the thing that birthed the modern PC is I think that's a fair
53:44SPEAKERThat's a fair criteria. I also think the list maybe stuff like, you know
53:48SPEAKERdoes
53:49SPEAKERDoes act go on this list, right? I don't even don't even know what that is act was the first contact manager
53:55SPEAKERIt was a sales tool. Mmm. It was it was revolutionary in that it replaced everybody's paper
54:00SPEAKERIt was it was the first thing that I remember that you would put
54:04SPEAKERLike you would people literally like one of my early jobs was typing people's Rolodexes into their act databases
54:11SPEAKERSo that they could because it because in addition to saving phone numbers and addresses and stuff like that
54:15SPEAKERIt also would let you set reminders to say hey call back call Steve back in three months
54:20SPEAKERbecause that's when he said to call him back and also we talked about how his kids were doing in school and
54:26SPEAKERLike it was the it was like it was like the thing that people who were good at sales
54:31SPEAKERDid it made easier for everyone? Huh? Yeah sounds reasonably significant
54:38SPEAKERLet me swerve here a little bit. Okay. I've got one. Yeah. Well, let's have it. What do you think about wind zip?
54:45SPEAKERHmm
54:47SPEAKERWell, you just typed win Z on my screen. So I'm gonna disallow it based on that
54:52SPEAKERI think the Google Doc maybe just hasn't caught up yet. Oh boy. That is not how you get in the list. Google Docs
54:58SPEAKERYou think when zip really maybe a little maybe a little torn myself? I don't know
55:02SPEAKERI mean look when zip was a critical piece of software for a long time
55:07SPEAKERRight. Yeah word for a lot of people. That was the way that was the only way you could unzip
55:12SPEAKERI mean for noobs. Well, you know over here we were using win RAR or
55:17SPEAKERI mean, you know if you're on BBS's and could handle the DOS prompt PK unzip
55:23SPEAKERYeah, that's that's where the pros were or or pecan zip as my friend referred to it back in the day
55:29SPEAKERNo, that's not okay. I had my friend. I don't know. I could never quite tell if he was serious or not
55:34SPEAKERThat's got to be he was he had to be messing with you
55:37SPEAKERI think wins is probably on the list wins
55:39SPEAKERIt was also one of the first pieces of shareware. I remember where you had like the little
55:42SPEAKERThe little thing that popped up with the dark pattern button that changed which one was the cancel
55:47SPEAKERWhich one was the agree when I waited long enough. I didn't know was that insidious. What wasn't insidious?
55:52SPEAKERThey just thought they were being clever because they didn't want you to be able to automatically click on the same agree button after an
55:57SPEAKERArbitrary period of seconds, which was there which was their move fair
56:00SPEAKERWhen when zip was also the the thing that caused me to become aware of key generators. Oh, yeah, I can see that
56:07SPEAKERThere were certainly a lot of winds up key generators floating around
56:11SPEAKERReally good way to infect your computer back in the day, too. Yes
56:16SPEAKERYeah, you know it was fun
56:17SPEAKERIt was fun when I when I a couple years ago three years ago something after after I built an ass and realized like oh
56:23SPEAKERwow, I've got
56:25SPEAKERMost of the data I've ever owned on this one thing now
56:28SPEAKERRunning running Windows Defender on all of that. Oh
56:32SPEAKERGod was was a little eye-opening at least the viruses were old and easy to manage
56:37SPEAKEROh, yeah, and it's not like I was running any of those things, but it was just like oh this this
56:42SPEAKERwhatever this old nameless Windows like shell modification program to make it look like Mac OS is
56:49SPEAKERThat sure was filthy. You know what I mean? Yeah, like something like that that I haven't run in 20 years or whatever
56:54SPEAKERbut it was it was fun to see the
56:58SPEAKERSix or eight or ten things pop up that were like this
57:01SPEAKERAnyway, it was only ten. I mean if you only had ten you did pretty well. Yeah, maybe it doesn't that most
57:07SPEAKERIn a couple million files. I think I only had one real bad virus outbreak
57:12SPEAKERThat I remember so like you were you were actually infected
57:16SPEAKERI don't I don't know that I don't remember ever actually being like visibly infected. That's the problem Brad
57:22SPEAKERYeah, but like what were they doing though? Like I like at some level
57:26SPEAKERWhat is the net effect of having a virus if you never actually notice in in the in the word macro virus days?
57:31SPEAKERIt was just that every time you say just gave somebody another file you would infect them
57:36SPEAKERBut it probably didn't matter because most people like I like when I was in college
57:39SPEAKERI had to print all my homework and turn it in so it wasn't like
57:43SPEAKERIt wasn't like me my word being horribly infected impacted anyone because I never transferred a file to them
57:49SPEAKERThey were just yeah, I was the dead end. What was that virus doing locally?
57:53SPEAKERLike what was what actions was it taking on your machine? It was literally just
57:58SPEAKERInfecting every other word document that you saved with macros that they would then infect every other word document
58:04SPEAKERYou said it didn't break. It wasn't like it wasn't like there were payloads like there are today
58:07SPEAKERThat's what I mean. It's not like it didn't it didn't actually like sabotage anything once it once it
58:12SPEAKEROr and it didn't like add you to a botnet or like botnets didn't exist at that point. So right
58:19SPEAKERWhat I think I feel like we're at a pretty good stopping point here you think so, I mean we've added let's see today we added
58:26SPEAKERword star
58:28SPEAKERGoogle.com at the turn of the century slash page rank ffmpeg explorer dot exe doom
58:33SPEAKERGorilla bass corral draw the print shop professional Lotus one two three wind zip. Oh, you're highlighting print shop professional
58:40SPEAKERDon't you dare? I don't I don't really oh that is I feel like there's so much overlap between corral drawn and print shop professional
58:48SPEAKERI don't know. I mean later
58:50SPEAKERWhat is a print run as a precursor to them?
58:53SPEAKEROkay, look if you include Windows 3.1 and Windows Windows 2000 then yes, I see. All right
58:59SPEAKERWell, maybe we'll revisit that topic but oh boy here it goes. Yeah, this is when this gets nasty
59:07SPEAKERI think I think I look I I was hoping we would have an ordered list out of this episode today
59:13SPEAKERI think that was wildly optimistic
59:15SPEAKERI think I think right around the time that you started describing this as the project of our lives any urgency evaporated
59:22SPEAKERTo get it done. We did add a new rule today - no protocols. Yeah. Yeah, I guess yes. Okay fine
59:29SPEAKERI love protocols but 2024 ranking your protocols. Okay, fine
59:36SPEAKERAnd I feel like if I could come up with one other banger before we go I would feel very good about it
59:41SPEAKEROkay, hold on
59:43SPEAKERMm-hmm. What about?
59:46SPEAKERQuark Express
59:48SPEAKERAll right, that might be one too many
59:50SPEAKER90s productivity software this is look this is the this is the software that created desktop publishing
59:56SPEAKERI for all intents and purposes kind of still hang on. Okay, let's take
1:00:00SPEAKERpapers
1:00:01SPEAKERMagazines every piece of printed material you read for probably 10 years was written was was laid out in Quark Express
1:00:08SPEAKERI'm gonna write down in Quark Express. It is not the banger I had in mind though. Okay, what else you got me?
1:00:13SPEAKERWe need something we need something out of left field. Oh
1:00:16SPEAKEROkay, something to make people go
1:00:20SPEAKERSee I had been thinking about that I had I had I had
1:00:24SPEAKERPeriodically thought to myself are we gonna put a phone OS on here?
1:00:26SPEAKEROr are we gonna put the App Store on here and something from a phone has to show up. What about next OS?
1:00:33SPEAKEROh, oh, like, oh, wow next step next step. Oh, man
1:00:39SPEAKERHuh?
1:00:40SPEAKEROkay, so now this is this is the kind of creative thinking that I that I desire that I crave
1:00:46SPEAKERMan, that's yes
1:00:50SPEAKERNext up for people who don't know is the operating system that ran on
1:00:54SPEAKERthe next machines that Steve Jobs
1:00:56SPEAKERYeah, I went and I started to say went and made obviously he didn't make the computers
1:01:00SPEAKERNext is the company he founded when he got booted out of Apple and then sold back to Apple when he got brought back into
1:01:06SPEAKERApple so crucially next step formed the basis of Mac OS 10 Mac OS 10 literally is just next step ported to
1:01:12SPEAKERto power to power PCs and Macs and rebranded and reskin
1:01:17SPEAKERRebuilt over a period of 10 years. There's more to it. Of course, like I'm being very reductive
1:01:21SPEAKERBut in the early days like it literally they literally just ported next step to power PC OS 10
1:01:27SPEAKER1.0. The first release is like a reskin version of next steps back end, which is based on BSD
1:01:33SPEAKERWhich is I mean there are still to this day modern system calls in Mac OS that start with NS like oh, yeah
1:01:39SPEAKERNo doubt it is it is as foundational to current Mac technology as you can get
1:01:45SPEAKERIt is to current OS 10 and iOS as DOS is to Windows next I am
1:01:51SPEAKERLet me let me get my branding right real quick because they did they did change some stuff
1:01:55SPEAKERI think they kind of didn't partially rename it when they ported it to x86 because eventually eventually next stop making
1:02:01SPEAKERWe're not stop making hardware
1:02:03SPEAKERBut they also started porting their OS to like x86 because they were not doing well as a that was BB did that?
1:02:09SPEAKERNext also next to the - yes. There are there are x86 builds of next step out there that you can get
1:02:17SPEAKEROkay, it was always next step I
1:02:20SPEAKERThat is that is absolutely something that needs to be on here because we haven't even gotten to the part where I mean
1:02:25SPEAKERWe've mentioned this on other episodes
1:02:27SPEAKERThe part where the world wide web was developed on this operating system
1:02:30SPEAKEROh, right because Tim Berners-Lee had a had a next machine that he thought was cool
1:02:35SPEAKERThat was his workstation that he he created
1:02:39SPEAKERCar back to a lot of work on next machines and SGI machines right doom doom and quake were also
1:02:45SPEAKERcreated on on next machines in next step like that operating system is
1:02:50SPEAKERquietly
1:02:51SPEAKERAbout as influential as it gets. I don't I don't think they're like like that work happened
1:02:56SPEAKERI don't think that work wouldn't would have not happened without next machines
1:02:59SPEAKERoh, you're right, but the people who were doing work on those machines back then like just
1:03:04SPEAKERRaved and like you'll still see them talk very lovingly about like how amazing it was to do work in that thing. Yeah
1:03:12SPEAKERAre those emulatable at this point?
1:03:14SPEAKERCan we can we set up a next emulator and run next OS and experience that you can install and run any of those in?
1:03:20SPEAKERIn 86 box. I never had a ton of experience with next machines
1:03:24SPEAKERI did a lot of SGI machines back then I have I have a I have a folder sitting here on my
1:03:30SPEAKEROn my desktop right now with let's see
1:03:33SPEAKERI've got install media for BoS 4.5 and 5.0 4.5 was a good release for BoS
1:03:40SPEAKERThat's why I started at ours for I've got I've got OS to warp three and four
1:03:46SPEAKERWhoa, I've got oh
1:03:49SPEAKERI'm okay
1:03:50SPEAKERThis might be the thing I was trying to think of I think they may have rebranded next step to open step when they start
1:03:54SPEAKERReporting it to other architectures. That makes sense. I think I don't know I've got I've got install media here for both
1:04:01SPEAKERNext step 3.2 and open step 4.2
1:04:04SPEAKERAnyway, anyway, exotic old operating systems. There are ways to run them now and we should this is exciting
1:04:10SPEAKERI didn't know that if if we did streams I would load up old OS's and just noodle with old OS's
1:04:15SPEAKERThat's exactly the thing. I was just trying to think of a way to say without any non-binding fashion. Yeah
1:04:23SPEAKERNext step is a is a is a good deep hole that absolutely
1:04:27SPEAKERI should be on here. I've got one more swerve for you. All right
1:04:31SPEAKERWhat about raspbian slash raspberry pi OS?
1:04:35SPEAKERNow hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You're making the bad noise, but I'm gonna tell you why my case is a lot
1:04:41SPEAKERI don't know
1:04:42SPEAKERHere's the thing that it did it took it paired with a piece of widely available hardware. Yeah, and it turned
1:04:49SPEAKERcomputer a general-purpose computer into single-serve devices that can become
1:04:54SPEAKEREssentially software wedges that have a hardware basis in hardware. I'm gonna write maybe raspberry pi OS here. Oh boy
1:05:03SPEAKERMaybe I think haven't gotten very deep. I mean, it's it's it's just Debbie in with some extra PI stuff added in like
1:05:09SPEAKERLike isn't isn't Windows 95 just DOS with some extra graphical stuff added in I guess I don't know
1:05:16SPEAKERI wrote it down. Okay, but it I mean it's you know, wow
1:05:20SPEAKERI thought that was gonna I thought that was gonna shake you to the core like the next did
1:05:25SPEAKERWe'll put BoS on next week. But uh, oh boy now now we're just getting into ranking of operating systems
1:05:31SPEAKERLook, I mean at the end of the day, isn't that what it's what it's all about. Yes
1:05:35SPEAKERI'd also I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest maybe we take break. We need to do we need to do questions. Oh, yeah
1:05:40SPEAKERYeah, we're definitely not doing this next week. I think I think we're already a week late on questions
1:05:44SPEAKERSo I think next week will be a questions episode
1:05:47SPEAKERNext week next week. We should do questions. So if you have questions, you can send them to
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