00:00SPEAKER- What's your statute of limitations
00:02SPEAKERon food found on your desk?
00:05SPEAKER- Are we talking five second rule,
00:07SPEAKERone minute rule, one day rule?
00:09SPEAKER- Let's say theoretically I had some fruit gummies,
00:12SPEAKERWelch's yesterday, not a product placement,
00:13SPEAKERdelicious fruit flavored gummies.
00:16SPEAKER- Okay, non narcotic, I assume.
00:18SPEAKER- No, no, they were not weed gummies.
00:20SPEAKERThey were the ones that I put in my daughter's lunch
00:21SPEAKERsometimes when I want to give her a treat.
00:23SPEAKERAnd possibly when I cleaned off my desk
00:26SPEAKERat the end of the day yesterday,
00:27SPEAKERthere was an extra one left in the bag
00:29SPEAKERthat I noticed as I sat down here this morning.
00:30SPEAKERIt's like, I like a fruit gummy.
00:34SPEAKERSo 24 hours, it's dry, it doesn't go bad.
00:39SPEAKER- Feels like a real Homer Simpson-esque situation,
00:41SPEAKERlike pondering found food, the edibility thereof.
00:46SPEAKER- It's still squishy.
00:47SPEAKER- I take that back, like Homer wouldn't hesitate, right?
00:49SPEAKERLike you have more class than Homer Simpson
00:51SPEAKERbecause you're at least thinking about it.
00:53SPEAKER- In what is possibly on rewatch,
00:55SPEAKERthe most offensive Simpsons episode ever,
00:59SPEAKERthe Venus de Milo, gummy de Milo one,
01:02SPEAKERwhere he grabs the gummy off of the babysitter's ass
01:06SPEAKERas she's getting out of the car
01:07SPEAKERand then starts a sexual harassment thing.
01:09SPEAKERAnd they minimize the idea that sexual harassment
01:13SPEAKERis a real thing throughout the entire episode.
01:16SPEAKERYes, he did not hesitate.
01:17SPEAKERHe saw the gummy and ate it without a second thought.
01:21SPEAKERIt's red also, if that makes a difference.
01:23SPEAKERIt's not one of the oranges, which is an okay flavor.
01:25SPEAKERIt's not a green, which is a bad flavor.
01:27SPEAKER- So it's top tier upper echelon.
01:29SPEAKER- It's easily a top 10% flavor
01:31SPEAKERfor the Welch's Cupfruit gummies.
01:33SPEAKER- We've also mentioned you say the desk is dust free.
01:36SPEAKER- I got a desk, I got a desk, a desk duster, a desk duster.
01:44SPEAKERI got a blower, I got a fan that blows canned air
01:47SPEAKERand I plug it into the wall.
01:48SPEAKER- Oh, what brand did you get?
01:50SPEAKER- I got whatever one was $35 on Amazon.
01:53SPEAKER- Also not product placement.
01:54SPEAKER- Yeah.
01:55SPEAKER- I think mine is an X power.
01:58SPEAKER(chair creaking)
02:01SPEAKERSound of chair creaking.
02:02SPEAKEROkay, that's not the one I have.
02:03SPEAKER- Mine is a sunshine.
02:05SPEAKER- Okay.
02:05SPEAKER- It looks like sunshine.
02:06SPEAKERIt has a logo that looks like sun.
02:07SPEAKER- Wait a minute.
02:09SPEAKERThat's how you clean your desk?
02:10SPEAKERYou're not dusting, you're just moving the dust around.
02:13SPEAKER- This is an air filter.
02:14SPEAKERSo I put the dust in the air
02:16SPEAKERand then the air filter takes it out.
02:17SPEAKERIt's like I'm cutting out the middleman.
02:20SPEAKERHow do you dust?
02:22SPEAKER- With a duster?
02:24SPEAKER- Like do you put on your French maid outfit
02:26SPEAKERand get the feathers out at the same time?
02:28SPEAKER- Look, I have a whole process, okay?
02:30SPEAKER- Oh boy, that sounds like another episode.
02:32SPEAKEROkay, so yeah, I think I'm gonna eat the gummy
02:34SPEAKERafter the episode.
02:35SPEAKERIt's my reward for a podcast well done.
02:36SPEAKER- Wait a minute, what?
02:38SPEAKERCome on, if you're gonna eat the gummy,
02:39SPEAKERyou need to do it on the spot.
02:40SPEAKERYou need to--
02:41SPEAKER- I'm drinking coffee too.
02:42SPEAKER- That's so?
02:43SPEAKER- It's gonna make both things taste bad.
02:45SPEAKEREverything's gonna be worse because of the gummy.
02:48SPEAKEROkay, here we go.
02:50SPEAKERLittle less chewy than normal, little denser.
02:53SPEAKER- Okay.
02:54SPEAKER- Getting some good chewing sounds in here for y'all.
02:56SPEAKER- Oh yes, ASMR new category we're trying to expand.
02:59SPEAKER- Strange, just strong flavor.
03:01SPEAKERMaybe a little bit of a dust coating on the outside
03:03SPEAKERif I'm being honest.
03:03SPEAKER- Okay, a little mealy or something?
03:05SPEAKER- Probably, my immune system is probably
03:07SPEAKERgetting even more boosted than it already was.
03:10SPEAKERI'd say it's a nine out of 10
03:12SPEAKERWelch's fruit gummy experience.
03:14SPEAKER- Well then, let this be a lesson to you all
03:16SPEAKERto observe all gummy containment protocols.
03:20SPEAKER(upbeat music)
03:23SPEAKER(upbeat music)
03:47SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.
03:49SPEAKERI'm Will.
03:50SPEAKER- I'm Brad.
03:51SPEAKER- Brad, I'm bivalent now.
03:52SPEAKER- Bivalent.
03:53SPEAKER- I'm bivalent.
03:54SPEAKER- Hang on, I feel like, don't tell me
03:55SPEAKERI should know what that means.
03:56SPEAKERWell, I typed bivalent in a Google
03:58SPEAKERand it immediately suggested bivalent booster as search.
04:04SPEAKER- I've now had four, two normal shots and two boosters.
04:11SPEAKEROne of which was bivalent.
04:12SPEAKERI'm ready, I'm strong.
04:14SPEAKER- Uh-huh.
04:15SPEAKER- How's my arm hurts?
04:17SPEAKER- Just to be clear, you're talking about
04:18SPEAKERthe Omicron booster.
04:20SPEAKER- Yeah, I got the Omicron booster yesterday.
04:21SPEAKERHow's your reception?
04:23SPEAKER- Uh, look, I'm not, I'm like,
04:25SPEAKERI'd say I'm like five and a half, maybe six Gs right now.
04:28SPEAKER- Okay, that's 'cause you got the,
04:29SPEAKERyeah, you got the antenna upgrade installed, right?
04:30SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, I haven't,
04:32SPEAKERnobody's turned on the microwave oven yet,
04:33SPEAKERso I don't know how that's gonna work.
04:34SPEAKERBut yeah, no, I feel, I don't feel as strong
04:38SPEAKERas I was hoping right out the gate,
04:39SPEAKERbut I think it's a two week incubation period as usual.
04:42SPEAKERYou know, it's gotta get its tendrils into your brain.
04:44SPEAKER- The subliminal directives from Lord Gates
04:47SPEAKERare coming in loud and clear.
04:49SPEAKER- I haven't heard anything from Lord Gates yet,
04:50SPEAKERmore than the normal background hum of,
04:52SPEAKERyou know, kill all apples.
04:54SPEAKER- Yes, yes.
04:56SPEAKER- But yeah, no, I got the booster yesterday.
04:58SPEAKERWe went down, we went to the mission this time.
05:00SPEAKER- Oh.
05:01SPEAKER- 'Cause they had the Moderna one,
05:02SPEAKERand I'm three Pfizer's to this point,
05:05SPEAKERso I, the three Pfizer's to the wind.
05:09SPEAKERWell, the general recommendation is
05:11SPEAKERyou kinda wanna mix and match for maximum strength
05:14SPEAKERon the thing.
05:15SPEAKER- Yes.
05:15SPEAKER- So nobody had Moderna here,
05:18SPEAKERso except for this one place in the mission.
05:20SPEAKER- Interesting.
05:21SPEAKER- So I had to schlep down to the mission and park
05:23SPEAKERand like walk and like,
05:25SPEAKERalso I could have gotten some Narcan if I wanted there,
05:27SPEAKERso it was convenient.
05:28SPEAKER- Ooh, it's always nice to have around.
05:30SPEAKER- Just in case.
05:31SPEAKER- Yeah, I had planned to get Moderna.
05:34SPEAKERI am one of the relatively few Johnson & Johnson getters.
05:39SPEAKER- Well, what'd you get your booster for though?
05:41SPEAKER- So I got the Moderna booster, the first one.
05:42SPEAKERThey were strongly, for whatever reason,
05:44SPEAKERthey were strongly recommending Johnson & Johnson people
05:47SPEAKERget Moderna for the first booster
05:48SPEAKER'cause they were seeing, for whatever reason,
05:51SPEAKERbetter efficacy with those two combined rather than Pfizer,
05:54SPEAKERbut now that I've had two,
05:57SPEAKERshould I just complete the set and go get a Pfizer?
06:00SPEAKER- Look, if you go to Canada, you could get an AstraZeneca.
06:02SPEAKERYou get a novel vaccine.
06:06SPEAKER- Is that one mRNA or no?
06:08SPEAKER- I don't know.
06:09SPEAKERI can't remember at this point.
06:10SPEAKERI would do, I mean, I don't know.
06:12SPEAKERI would read what the doctors say and do what they say,
06:14SPEAKERbut it seems like everybody says get a variety
06:17SPEAKERand you're better off.
06:18SPEAKER- Was it hard to get?
06:20SPEAKERLike, so I went into this.
06:22SPEAKERFirst of all, I feel like the very approval
06:24SPEAKERjust sort of came out of nowhere or snuck up on us.
06:27SPEAKERLike there was not a big fanfare in the news
06:29SPEAKERwhen the FDA pushed it through,
06:32SPEAKERwhich confirms or reinforces my suspicion
06:35SPEAKERthat like maybe people aren't actually jumping
06:38SPEAKERout of their chairs to go get this
06:39SPEAKERbecause most people seem to just not care
06:40SPEAKERabout COVID anymore.
06:41SPEAKER- It wasn't, well, so like the mass vaccination sites
06:45SPEAKERare gone, it seems like.
06:46SPEAKERSo like the San Mateo County Fair Center,
06:50SPEAKERthe one that was out at the Catholic Reardon Hospital,
06:55SPEAKERReardon in San Francisco, those are all gone.
06:58SPEAKERIt seems like COVID's over, so, you know.
07:01SPEAKER- Sure.
07:02SPEAKER- I mean, don't look at, don't pay attention
07:04SPEAKERto the 500 or 600 people dying every day.
07:06SPEAKERIt's not a real, they're not real.
07:08SPEAKERIt's just, that's just a figment.
07:09SPEAKEREverything's good.
07:10SPEAKERGo back to your normal ways of life.
07:12SPEAKERYeah, we had to, we used the myturn.gov site
07:16SPEAKERor .ca.gov, whatever.
07:18SPEAKERAnd it found, Gina was able to find a place
07:20SPEAKERthat had the one we wanted relatively easily.
07:22SPEAKER- Yeah, the reason I ask is mainly just like, you know,
07:24SPEAKERif you'd asked me three, four months ago, like,
07:26SPEAKERhey, what's the rush gonna be like when the new booster,
07:29SPEAKERthe variant booster comes along?
07:30SPEAKERLike I would have assumed it was gonna be like lines
07:33SPEAKERout the door of people trying to get that thing.
07:35SPEAKERBut I'm guessing at this point, it's like,
07:37SPEAKERyou could practically just walk in.
07:38SPEAKER- Well, so the pharmacy we went to had like a steady stream
07:41SPEAKERof people in and out getting COVID vaccines.
07:43SPEAKER- Okay.
07:44SPEAKER- So we had like, but it wasn't like there were 50 people
07:46SPEAKERthere doing extra COVID vaccines.
07:48SPEAKERIt was like, they had a table in the front
07:50SPEAKERto register the COVID vaccine people
07:52SPEAKERand also the monkey pox vaccine people.
07:54SPEAKERAnd I think also the polio vaccine people,
07:56SPEAKERbut I'm not sure about that.
07:58SPEAKERSo yeah, it was, I don't know.
08:00SPEAKERIt was fine.
08:00SPEAKER- All right.
08:01SPEAKER- Yeah, my arm hurts.
08:04SPEAKERIt's so far, it hasn't been any worse than the other one.
08:06SPEAKERI, when my daughter got her Pfizer kid booster,
08:10SPEAKERwhich is not the bivalent one the other day,
08:13SPEAKERthe second one kind of knocked her out.
08:14SPEAKERLike she was, she was a little,
08:15SPEAKERshe was a little wrecked as a result,
08:17SPEAKERbut also having recently had COVID,
08:19SPEAKERI don't want to have it again.
08:20SPEAKERIt sucks to be avoided.
08:22SPEAKERSo get your boosters.
08:23SPEAKER- Did you get your flu shot at the same time
08:25SPEAKERor could you get your flu shot, do they allow that?
08:27SPEAKER- Well, you can,
08:28SPEAKERbut they weren't offering it there at the same time.
08:30SPEAKERSo Gina stopped on the way home to get her flu shot.
08:34SPEAKERI'm going to do mine later today or tomorrow
08:36SPEAKERbecause it tends to hit me pretty hard
08:38SPEAKERand I had stuff I had to get done today.
08:40SPEAKER- Okay.
08:41SPEAKER- Including recording this podcast.
08:42SPEAKER- Yes, indeed.
08:43SPEAKERSo it seems like maybe that would be more efficient.
08:47SPEAKERIt's not the right word,
08:48SPEAKERbut maybe more convenient to just stack both of them.
08:50SPEAKERAnd then if you're going to have side effects,
08:51SPEAKERlike get it all over with at once.
08:53SPEAKER- So Gina fell asleep on the couch about 7 30 last night.
08:56SPEAKER- Okay.
08:57SPEAKER- And like the kiddo and I came in and we watched a movie.
09:00SPEAKERLike it was loud.
09:02SPEAKERThe dog climbed up on her.
09:03SPEAKERAt one point I looked over to make sure
09:04SPEAKERshe was still breathing.
09:05SPEAKEREverything was fine.
09:06SPEAKER- Wait, dog?
09:08SPEAKER- Oh, we're dog sitting.
09:09SPEAKER- Dog sitting.
09:10SPEAKER- Some friends, yeah.
09:11SPEAKER- Okay.
09:12SPEAKER- We haven't gotten a dog.
09:13SPEAKER- All right.
09:14SPEAKER- But I will say the condition on getting a dog in our house
09:18SPEAKERis that the kid has to help with the dog watching.
09:20SPEAKER- Aha.
09:21SPEAKER- And she is like, I walked out this morning
09:22SPEAKERafter we were getting ready to start recording
09:24SPEAKERand she was feeding the dog.
09:25SPEAKERShe's just taking the dog out already today.
09:27SPEAKER- Wow.
09:28SPEAKER- Like it is, we've turned a corner on dog maintenance
09:31SPEAKERfor children at this point.
09:33SPEAKER- You're saying there's some possible dog desire
09:36SPEAKERaround the house?
09:36SPEAKER- I'd say there's probably a dog
09:38SPEAKERin our not too distant future.
09:39SPEAKER- Okay.
09:41SPEAKER- But you know what's dogging people this week.
09:46SPEAKER- Speaking of canines, I, what?
09:48SPEAKER- It's scene drama.
09:50SPEAKER- Is it?
09:51SPEAKER- Is it scene drama?
09:52SPEAKER- This is dude, I think this like vastly surpasses scene.
09:55SPEAKERThis is like corporation drama, corporate drama.
09:58SPEAKER- Okay, okay.
09:59SPEAKER- I mean, this is the weirdest,
10:01SPEAKERthis might be the weirdest corporate situation
10:03SPEAKERI have ever seen.
10:04SPEAKER- Well, so it's weird on two fronts
10:07SPEAKER'cause it's both, and it's a really unusual story
10:11SPEAKERand also the way it has been reported and presented
10:14SPEAKERand put out to the press is real weird.
10:17SPEAKERAbsolutely bonkers, I would say.
10:19SPEAKER- We should probably say what it is we're talking about.
10:21SPEAKER- Oh yeah, so NVIDIA EVGA is what was once upon a time
10:27SPEAKERthe kind of most favored nation of NVIDIA GPU providers
10:30SPEAKERwill no longer be selling NVIDIA GPUs
10:33SPEAKERafter the 3000 series cards run their course.
10:35SPEAKER- Yes, and like that's wild on its face.
10:39SPEAKERThe way that this was revealed is also wild separately.
10:42SPEAKERLike there's a lot here, but first of all, I was gonna say,
10:44SPEAKERI'm glad to hear you say that most favored nation bit
10:47SPEAKERabout them because like having not worked in the tech press,
10:50SPEAKERI didn't know that like factually, but like I've always,
10:53SPEAKERI've always been in a gut sense,
10:56SPEAKERfelt like they were probably the most prominent
10:59SPEAKERor most well liked.
11:00SPEAKER- So yeah, they started in 1999.
11:03SPEAKEROur assumption in the, my assumption as somebody
11:06SPEAKERwho used to review video cards for a living
11:07SPEAKERand talking to other people was that for,
11:11SPEAKERI don't believe they've actually said this,
11:12SPEAKERbut my assumption was that like the review cards
11:15SPEAKERand the reference boards that were provided
11:16SPEAKERwere assembled by EVGA for a long time.
11:19SPEAKER- Okay, before we move on to--
11:21SPEAKER- That's it, just to be clear,
11:24SPEAKERspeculation that is informed by information,
11:28SPEAKERbut never confirmed.
11:29SPEAKER- Okay, should I ask what evidence there was?
11:32SPEAKER- The board designs were the same
11:33SPEAKERand the markets and the boards and stuff like that.
11:34SPEAKER- Like nothing, it's just something, it's, so,
11:38SPEAKERyou know when you're at press events for games
11:39SPEAKERand people are talking about like what games coming
11:41SPEAKERand what games they just played and stuff,
11:43SPEAKERlike this is the kind of shit
11:44SPEAKERthat video card reviewers talk about at events.
11:45SPEAKER- Okay, okay, got it, got it.
11:48SPEAKERWhat, I mean, this is like, you know,
11:49SPEAKERyou have some unique perspective
11:51SPEAKERhaving worked for so long in that space,
11:53SPEAKERlonger certainly than a lot of people that are doing it now,
11:55SPEAKERbut like--
11:57SPEAKER- Maybe not.
11:58SPEAKER- Not all of them.
11:59SPEAKER- Yeah.
12:00SPEAKER- I was pretty excited to see Gordon pop up
12:02SPEAKERon Gamers Nexus a couple of weeks ago.
12:06SPEAKERIt's like, all right, all you Johnny come lately,
12:08SPEAKERit's like--
12:09SPEAKER- Yeah, young whippersnappers.
12:10SPEAKER- Yes, here comes the godfather of hardware reviews.
12:14SPEAKERI mean, I guess I was gonna ask like
12:16SPEAKERwhat the old review process was like,
12:18SPEAKERor like what were those cards like?
12:20SPEAKERLike I was adjacent enough to people that reviewed hardware
12:23SPEAKERthat I would occasionally like see
12:25SPEAKERan Nvidia reference board, but like--
12:28SPEAKER- So we were magazines, we always got stuff real early,
12:31SPEAKERprobably before anything was close
12:33SPEAKERto being ready to actually show.
12:36SPEAKEROften it would be that I would take,
12:38SPEAKERI would load up a test machine in the car,
12:40SPEAKERdrive down to Nvidia's headquarters
12:43SPEAKERand they'd set me up in a conference room
12:44SPEAKERfor two or three days.
12:45SPEAKER- Oh wow.
12:46SPEAKER- And I would just plug in their reference board
12:48SPEAKERinto my machine to run benchmarks on it.
12:50SPEAKER- Oh, that's wild.
12:51SPEAKERI figured they were at least just sending them out.
12:54SPEAKER- So often they would send it out.
12:56SPEAKERIt depends on how, like it really depends on how,
13:01SPEAKERhonestly, probably depending on how they were doing
13:02SPEAKERcompared to what AMD was doing in the market.
13:05SPEAKER'Cause if they were sales leading,
13:07SPEAKERthen they wouldn't do that
13:07SPEAKER'cause they didn't wanna cannibalize their sales
13:09SPEAKERuntil the very last possible minute
13:10SPEAKERand wouldn't announce anything too early.
13:12SPEAKERIf they were not sales leading,
13:13SPEAKERthen they would announce something super early
13:16SPEAKERand torch whatever AMD was selling well.
13:19SPEAKER- Right.
13:20SPEAKERSo having to go to them with your own computer is,
13:22SPEAKERthat's like, that's almost the Nintendo pad locking
13:26SPEAKERa metal frame around with a GameCube
13:28SPEAKERlevel of protecting your product.
13:30SPEAKER- Well, no, no, no.
13:32SPEAKERSo we, us taking our own computer
13:34SPEAKERwas a condition of us doing the-
13:35SPEAKER- No, no, no, I know that part.
13:37SPEAKERThat's tangential.
13:38SPEAKERWhat I meant was the having to go to them
13:40SPEAKERand do all the stuff there and the card there.
13:43SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, so we had,
13:45SPEAKERsometimes when it wasn't a review,
13:46SPEAKERlike for the Dream Machine one year,
13:48SPEAKERwe had an early, a really early programmable shader ATI card
13:53SPEAKERand they brought the machine, they brought the card to us.
13:56SPEAKERSo they brought two cards.
13:57SPEAKERThey brought one that was a non-functional dummy card
13:59SPEAKERfor photography 'cause like we would need it over five days
14:03SPEAKERfor different photos and they didn't want to have somebody
14:05SPEAKERstand there holding it.
14:06SPEAKERAnd then on benchmark day,
14:07SPEAKERthey brought a functional card that we plugged in.
14:10SPEAKERAnd prior to the benchmark day, we also,
14:14SPEAKERI think I went over to their offices and did some tests
14:18SPEAKERto see if it was gonna like be as fast
14:20SPEAKERas they claimed it was in our terms.
14:23SPEAKERBut yeah, so often it was like driving down there.
14:25SPEAKERSometimes we'd get the board really early.
14:27SPEAKERSometimes we usually would get a brief
14:28SPEAKERand then the board would come in with like 48 hours
14:31SPEAKERbefore press 'cause they always want to hold
14:32SPEAKERuntil the last possible minute to get drivers or whatever.
14:35SPEAKERAnd often, especially in the magazine days,
14:38SPEAKERthey would say, hey, here are benchmarks
14:40SPEAKERthat we know are not gonna perform as we would expect
14:43SPEAKERbecause we haven't, they just haven't gotten to them
14:44SPEAKERon the driver optimization loop yet.
14:48SPEAKERAnd that was kind of to be expected.
14:50SPEAKER- Yeah.
14:51SPEAKER- So yeah, but the Founders Edition cards
14:53SPEAKERwere usually unmarked or they'd have just a plain in video
14:56SPEAKERon like the cooler, the reference board, sorry.
15:00SPEAKERThey were usually like plain unsilk screened coolers.
15:05SPEAKERThis was before the cards were completely encased in metal.
15:07SPEAKERRight, so it was like an all-in-one fan,
15:11SPEAKERheat sink cooler jammed onto the board.
15:15SPEAKERAnd those would be like, you know,
15:16SPEAKERthey'd be like a quarter of the board
15:17SPEAKERand you'd see the rest of the board
15:18SPEAKERand you look at the markings and pop the cooler off
15:21SPEAKERreally easy if you wanted and stuff like that.
15:22SPEAKER- Yeah, I think I saw a few video reference cards
15:25SPEAKERaround GameSpot back in that era.
15:27SPEAKER- Yeah, sometimes if you were getting access
15:30SPEAKERto something really, really early,
15:32SPEAKERit might still have like jumpers and stuff on it
15:35SPEAKERwhere they could do debug input and output.
15:37SPEAKER- Interesting.
15:38SPEAKER- Or not jumpers, dip switches.
15:39SPEAKERThat would have been in like the early 2000s,
15:41SPEAKERlate 90s before the modern GPU era started.
15:45SPEAKER- Sure, sure.
15:46SPEAKERYeah, so like, I mean, EVGA has always seemed like maybe,
15:49SPEAKERif not the go-to brand for GPUs,
15:51SPEAKERlike it's absolutely up there.
15:53SPEAKERI mean, also the, is the step-up program
15:57SPEAKERas kind of like legendary as I think it is or I've never-
16:01SPEAKER- People really like it.
16:02SPEAKERI always thought it was a little bit questionable
16:04SPEAKERof a financial value just because the product cycles
16:07SPEAKERare not annual and are hard to tell
16:09SPEAKERwhen things are gonna go.
16:11SPEAKERI know people who've used it and have had good luck.
16:13SPEAKERIt was novel.
16:16SPEAKERIf you don't know what the step-up program is,
16:17SPEAKERbasically the idea is like you can buy a GPU before,
16:22SPEAKERlike toward the end of a life cycle, you buy a GPU
16:24SPEAKERand you pay a little bit into the step-up program extra,
16:27SPEAKERand then you can turn that GPU back in
16:29SPEAKERand get the next one for not as much money
16:31SPEAKERas the whole thing would cost.
16:32SPEAKERSo you're basically buying like one and a half GPUs
16:34SPEAKERand getting two, but you have to send one back kind of.
16:37SPEAKER- Yeah, it's basically just like a way to guarantee like,
16:39SPEAKERokay, if they launch the next generation card next month,
16:43SPEAKERyou can swap this one for that one.
16:46SPEAKER- Yeah, and it was kind of like, look,
16:50SPEAKERit's an opportunity for them to, so, okay,
16:53SPEAKERso there's some things we have to explain
16:54SPEAKERabout the ad and board market.
16:55SPEAKERThis is what EVGA and what MSI and ASUS
16:59SPEAKERand all the companies that make, yeah,
17:01SPEAKERGigabyte make aftermarket GPUs
17:04SPEAKERthat aren't the Nvidia branded founders edition ones
17:07SPEAKERare their ad and board vendors is what they're called.
17:10SPEAKERAnd they're typically like companies
17:12SPEAKERthat have production lines in Taiwan
17:14SPEAKERwhere they have pick and place machines
17:15SPEAKERand soldering machines and all that kind of stuff.
17:17SPEAKERAnd they design boards, often design boards,
17:20SPEAKERsometimes less so these days, I feel like.
17:23SPEAKERThey design custom coolers often,
17:26SPEAKERand then they'll sell those boards
17:28SPEAKERat a little bit of a premium
17:29SPEAKERover the kind of base level board.
17:32SPEAKERIn the old days, they would add like more memory
17:34SPEAKERor they'd overclock the memory or they'd overclock the,
17:36SPEAKERI mean, they still overclock the CPUs and GPUs some,
17:38SPEAKERbut the impact of that is negligible these days,
17:41SPEAKERit seems like.
17:43SPEAKERAnd it's traditionally been,
17:46SPEAKERit's one of those markets that like the volume
17:48SPEAKERis probably pretty good.
17:49SPEAKERThey probably sell quite a few cards,
17:51SPEAKERbut the margins are incredibly thin.
17:53SPEAKERIt's like, it's the kind of place where like the difference,
17:56SPEAKERlike the difference between a three cent capacitor
17:58SPEAKERand a four cent capacitor
17:59SPEAKERis like something that they really think about, right?
18:01SPEAKERSo you, and they're also completely
18:08SPEAKERat the mercy of the partner, right?
18:11SPEAKERSo like their 3000 series car,
18:13SPEAKERthey order 3000 series GPUs from Nvidia.
18:17SPEAKERThey are expected to fulfill that order
18:18SPEAKEReven if Nvidia decides they're gonna release
18:20SPEAKER4,000 series cards, right?
18:22SPEAKERAnd the prices are probably fixed
18:24SPEAKERbased on the deals, my assumption.
18:26SPEAKERI don't know how the, nobody really knows
18:28SPEAKERhow those deals are structured
18:29SPEAKER'cause most of these companies are either private
18:31SPEAKERor the division that does this is small enough,
18:33SPEAKERit doesn't get rolled up into annual reporting.
18:36SPEAKERSo yeah, Nvidia, EVGA launched in '99.
18:42SPEAKERThey almost immediately became like the ones
18:45SPEAKERthat were first out the gate with the reference design.
18:47SPEAKERSo, okay, here's the other thing that's important.
18:49SPEAKERThose boards that Nvidia sent to press and partners
18:51SPEAKERand stuff like that, that had like a,
18:53SPEAKERthey all have the same cooler,
18:54SPEAKERthey all have the same board design.
18:56SPEAKERThat's what's called a reference design.
18:58SPEAKERAnd so the first six months or a year of cards
19:00SPEAKERthat come out after they announce a new GPU
19:02SPEAKERwill all have the same board design.
19:04SPEAKERAnd most of them will have the same
19:06SPEAKERor some variation of the same cooler.
19:08SPEAKERAnd those are designed by Nvidia.
19:10SPEAKERNow, after that initial period,
19:12SPEAKERonce the ad and board vendors have had time with the boards
19:14SPEAKERand their engineers can like redesign boards
19:16SPEAKERand replace stuff and move stuff around
19:19SPEAKERfor better cooling or whatever,
19:20SPEAKERyou get like the souped up cards
19:22SPEAKERthat use different board designs.
19:23SPEAKERYou'll start seeing water blocks and hybrid coolers
19:26SPEAKERthat use a water block and a fan.
19:28SPEAKERYou'll see like the MSI famously,
19:30SPEAKERthe MSI makes the Frozer coolers
19:32SPEAKERthat are like these big three slot monstrosities
19:34SPEAKERthat stick out the top.
19:35SPEAKERThey're totally outside the PCI express spec,
19:37SPEAKERbut they'll like, they'll cool your thing
19:40SPEAKERlike 8% better or something.
19:41SPEAKERAnd they have like cool lights on them.
19:44SPEAKER- Hang on, can I, I'm sorry.
19:45SPEAKERI have to point out here in the notes,
19:47SPEAKERyou spelled Frozer with an E.
19:49SPEAKER- It's called Frozer.
19:50SPEAKER- That is not on brand.
19:51SPEAKER- Oh, is it F-R-O-Z-O-R?
19:53SPEAKER- No, I think it's no val.
19:55SPEAKERWe'll need, hang on.
19:56SPEAKER- No, no, no, it's F-R-O-Z-E-R, I'm pretty sure.
19:59SPEAKER- Nope, nope, no val.
20:01SPEAKERF-R-O-Z-R.
20:03SPEAKER- Wow, I apologize.
20:05SPEAKER- The lack of a val makes it 10 times stupider.
20:07SPEAKER- Man, maybe it has always been no R.
20:09SPEAKEROkay, anyway, that's not the point.
20:11SPEAKERThe point is like that stuff.
20:13SPEAKERSo, okay, and to give you a sense of scale,
20:16SPEAKERNvidia spends billions of dollars developing new GPUs,
20:19SPEAKERcoolers, reference boards, right?
20:21SPEAKERThat and BARD vendors spend probably millions of dollars,
20:24SPEAKERnot more than tens of millions on each board design
20:30SPEAKERand each cooler design.
20:31SPEAKERAnd then they get that money back
20:33SPEAKERby selling the fancy souped up cards
20:35SPEAKERat a pretty high markup over the stock cards.
20:38SPEAKER- Yeah, before we move forward more,
20:40SPEAKERyou, so I remember back in the day,
20:43SPEAKERlike the kind of like the souped up cards,
20:45SPEAKERlike you said, were a pretty big deal
20:47SPEAKERor they seemed like decent volume movers.
20:50SPEAKERThat was a lot of like, hey,
20:52SPEAKERthis GPU is running a 10% higher clock and stuff like that.
20:55SPEAKERLike I know on the memory side,
20:57SPEAKERthere are more limitations now
20:58SPEAKER'cause more of it is integrated with the GPU,
21:00SPEAKERbut are those overclocks not still like a big
21:03SPEAKERkind of front of box selling point anymore?
21:05SPEAKER- Well, so once the memory controllers went into the GPU
21:09SPEAKERand stopped being an external thing,
21:11SPEAKERthen the ability to dink with the memory configurations
21:13SPEAKERwent way down, right?
21:14SPEAKERSo they have to do stuff that's built in
21:16SPEAKERand supported by the card, by the GPU rather than the card.
21:23SPEAKER- So fewer just, 'cause this,
21:25SPEAKERI think this will be relevant later.
21:26SPEAKERLike so fewer variations in the AIB cards
21:28SPEAKERthan there used to be in terms of like performance.
21:30SPEAKER- Yeah, there's fewer dials for those people to turn, right?
21:32SPEAKER- Okay.
21:33SPEAKER- The other thing is the boards
21:35SPEAKERhave become way more complex.
21:37SPEAKERLike if you look at Nvidia's 3000 series cards
21:40SPEAKERwhere they have the cutout on the backside
21:41SPEAKERand they're like these complicated multi-layer boards,
21:44SPEAKERthose are more expensive to produce.
21:46SPEAKERSo the margins are gonna get thinner for the AIB vendors.
21:52SPEAKERThe other thing is the coolers that Nvidia produces
21:57SPEAKERhave gotten dramatically better.
21:58SPEAKERLike you remember the 5000 series Nvidia cards
22:01SPEAKERthat came out and like they made,
22:02SPEAKERlike Nvidia's marketing group made a video
22:05SPEAKERmocking how loud they were.
22:06SPEAKERLike, this sounds like a Harley Davidson.
22:07SPEAKERThis sounds like, I think it sounds really cool,
22:09SPEAKERlike a leaf blower.
22:10SPEAKER- You know, I respect it.
22:12SPEAKER- Yeah.
22:13SPEAKER- Like when you've got a product like that on your hands,
22:14SPEAKERyou might as well just lean into it
22:15SPEAKERin the most ridiculous way.
22:17SPEAKER- Look, that video, just to be clear,
22:19SPEAKERis on the list with like Adam Boyes
22:23SPEAKERshowing how you share a game on the PlayStation,
22:26SPEAKERa PS4 game.
22:27SPEAKER- By handing it to Shuhei Yoshida.
22:29SPEAKER- Yeah, exactly.
22:30SPEAKERLike those are like baller moves
22:33SPEAKERfrom like conference room videos.
22:35SPEAKEROkay, so.
22:35SPEAKER- Was that the, just to be clear,
22:37SPEAKERthat was the GeForce FX, correct?
22:39SPEAKER- GeForce FX 5000, 5800, I think.
22:42SPEAKERBut even like the 5900, which was supposedly quieter,
22:44SPEAKERwas still sounded like a damn jet turbine
22:46SPEAKERin your computer when it spun up.
22:48SPEAKERSo.
22:49SPEAKER- I have to find that video.
22:50SPEAKERWe'll move on, but I have to find that video.
22:52SPEAKER- It's pretty funny.
22:54SPEAKERBut the point is Nvidia has started paying
22:56SPEAKERa lot more attention to thermals and noise
22:58SPEAKERand things like that.
22:59SPEAKERAnd as a result, their coolers have gotten,
23:01SPEAKERover the last, especially like three or four generations,
23:02SPEAKERtheir coolers have gotten really good.
23:04SPEAKERSo there's less, like, so that means in turn,
23:07SPEAKERthere's less market for,
23:08SPEAKERhey, we're selling a really quiet version
23:10SPEAKERof this super fast video card,
23:11SPEAKERor we're selling a really overclocked loud version
23:14SPEAKER'cause you don't give a shit
23:15SPEAKERand you just want it to be 15% faster version
23:18SPEAKERbecause the reference designs are good,
23:21SPEAKERare good to very good.
23:23SPEAKERSo from the vendor's perspective,
23:26SPEAKERthey have less options to less dials that they can turn
23:30SPEAKERto make a fancy souped up product to sell at a high margin.
23:33SPEAKER'Cause like the water cooling stuff is good,
23:36SPEAKERbut ultimately the water cooling units
23:38SPEAKERaren't gonna sell massive volume.
23:39SPEAKERLike the ones that sell massive volume are the Frozers,
23:42SPEAKERright?
23:42SPEAKERThe ones that is like, hey, here's three big stupid fans
23:45SPEAKERand it has some lights on it.
23:46SPEAKERAnd that's gonna look good
23:47SPEAKERwhen you're standing in the store at Best Buy.
23:50SPEAKERThe other thing is all that,
23:52SPEAKERmost of that component sales has gone from retail
23:54SPEAKERwhere you're standing there looking at numbers on a box
23:56SPEAKERto going to PC part picker
23:58SPEAKERand picking the one that everybody recommends.
23:59SPEAKERAnd then that's the one that you buy
24:01SPEAKERat the price that you get.
24:02SPEAKER'Cause they're all kind of the same.
24:05SPEAKERFrom Nvidia's perspective,
24:07SPEAKERI think they've never said this obviously,
24:09SPEAKERbut my guess is that they look at the AIB partners
24:11SPEAKERand they're like, look, man, we spend billions of dollars
24:14SPEAKERmaking these things fast and reliable and quiet and good.
24:17SPEAKERAnd then the chucklehead overclockers come in
24:19SPEAKERand they turn some dials and put on 10% better capacitors.
24:22SPEAKERAnd they say that our thing is shit.
24:25SPEAKERAnd they build boards that are less reliable
24:26SPEAKERand cause support issues for us.
24:28SPEAKERSo- - Are they less reliable?
24:30SPEAKER- Probably not.
24:31SPEAKERI mean, okay, probably not on a one-by-one cases,
24:34SPEAKERbut like over the run, the overclocked boards
24:36SPEAKERare probably gonna have problems
24:38SPEAKERcompared to the stock clock boards.
24:40SPEAKERYeah. - That's fair.
24:41SPEAKERCan I ask you, let me jump in real fast.
24:43SPEAKERI mean, I'm not trying to throw shade at any companies
24:46SPEAKERor more to the point ask you to throw shade,
24:48SPEAKERbut like, is there a kind of second or third tier
24:51SPEAKERof AIB manufacturer that is like less trusted
24:54SPEAKERor like considered to be a little quality
24:57SPEAKERbelow the Asus's, the EVGA is like,
25:01SPEAKERI hesitate to say this.
25:02SPEAKERI don't know why this comes to mind,
25:03SPEAKERbut like Zotac, for example, is a name that I have not,
25:06SPEAKERI've never, I'm not familiar with them at all.
25:07SPEAKERThey may be just as good as all the others,
25:09SPEAKERbut like occasionally you would see cards
25:13SPEAKERfor a given generation coming from companies
25:14SPEAKERyou kind of never heard of before and,
25:18SPEAKERor are they all basically the same?
25:19SPEAKERLike, am I reading too much into like the kind of
25:22SPEAKERrelative variety of each company?
25:25SPEAKER- I think you're probably, I honestly, I don't know.
25:27SPEAKERLike I haven't reviewed third-party cards
25:29SPEAKERin a really long time.
25:30SPEAKER- Okay.
25:31SPEAKER- And in order to like, the problems that come with that,
25:34SPEAKERwith like, it's kind of like the old,
25:37SPEAKERlike leaking capacitors on Enforce chipsets, right?
25:42SPEAKERYou, you'd like the, when you just do a review
25:45SPEAKERand you run benchmarks for 10 hours
25:47SPEAKERand you play games with it for another 10 hours,
25:49SPEAKERyou're probably not going to see the problem
25:51SPEAKERif there is one.
25:52SPEAKERSo I'm not in a position to say one way or the other.
25:54SPEAKER- Okay, to be clear, like I think,
25:56SPEAKERI think a lot of that question is hold over
25:57SPEAKERfrom like the 3D effects days
25:59SPEAKERwhen like there were VUDUs coming from every which way.
26:03SPEAKER- Yeah.
26:03SPEAKER- Like there were like two dozen different companies
26:05SPEAKERputting VUDU cards on the market
26:07SPEAKERand half of them you'd never heard of.
26:09SPEAKER- I feel like generally speaking,
26:10SPEAKERwe're better at building hardware these days
26:12SPEAKERthan we were 20 years ago.
26:14SPEAKER- Yes, that is fair.
26:15SPEAKER- And like the failure rates of the things
26:18SPEAKERthat cause components to fail are more better understood
26:22SPEAKERso that then the problems come when you have like,
26:25SPEAKERlike a problem with silicon doping and capacitors
26:27SPEAKERor something goofy, right?
26:28SPEAKERLike some seemingly inconsequential impurity
26:31SPEAKERin the thing that goes into the part
26:33SPEAKERthat then causes a manufacturing defect later.
26:35SPEAKERAnd that stuff should be covered by warranty, right?
26:37SPEAKERIf there's a manufacturing defect in the card,
26:39SPEAKERthe warranty should pick it up.
26:40SPEAKER- Yes, okay, we should talk about the actual current events
26:44SPEAKERtop of the hand.
26:45SPEAKER- Yeah, so EVGA invited Gamers Nexus,
26:51SPEAKERis it Jay-Z two cents or Jay's two cents?
26:54SPEAKER- I think it's Jay's two cents.
26:56SPEAKER- Jay's two cents, I don't watch that channel,
26:57SPEAKERI don't watch that channel very much
26:58SPEAKERso I don't know, this is.
26:59SPEAKER- Really have our finger on the polls here.
27:01SPEAKER- Yeah, hi, the olds are speaking.
27:05SPEAKERAnd John Petty, John Petty is an analyst.
27:07SPEAKERHe's the, like he's carved out the stake
27:11SPEAKERin the analyst community as the GPU
27:13SPEAKERand graphical computing guy
27:15SPEAKERand has been doing it for a very long time.
27:17SPEAKERI've known John for a long time.
27:19SPEAKERHe invited, they invited them to come down
27:21SPEAKERto their headquarters in the US
27:23SPEAKERand talk to the CEO of EVGA, Andrew Han.
27:28SPEAKER- Yeah, is it US or I thought they said they went to Taiwan.
27:31SPEAKER- Oh, maybe they went to Taiwan, I don't know.
27:33SPEAKER- Anyway.
27:34SPEAKER- It looked like, that looked like US offices to me,
27:36SPEAKERbut city of industry, Taiwan office parks all look the same.
27:40SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
27:42SPEAKER- So.
27:43SPEAKER- But an official visit, like straight up
27:45SPEAKERspeaking to the CEO about the situation.
27:48SPEAKER- Yeah, and the TLDR is they're gonna keep selling
27:51SPEAKER3000 series cards until they're gone,
27:53SPEAKERwhich will likely be the end of this year.
27:55SPEAKERThey're not gonna be selling Nvidia 4000 series cards.
27:58SPEAKERThey'll keep enough 3000 series cards on
28:00SPEAKERto fulfill warranty claims, et cetera,
28:02SPEAKERall that kind of stuff.
28:04SPEAKERThey notified Nvidia in April,
28:07SPEAKERbut only senior management knew until last week
28:10SPEAKERor this week, last week for you all.
28:12SPEAKER- Gamers Nexus video emphasized multiple times
28:16SPEAKERthat most of the employees at EVGA
28:18SPEAKERwere just finding out about this
28:19SPEAKERthe day that all these stories ran.
28:21SPEAKER- Yeah, and they basically announced it with these,
28:24SPEAKERwith the Peddi's blog post,
28:26SPEAKERthe two videos on YouTube and a forum post,
28:29SPEAKERwhich is bananas.
28:31SPEAKEROh, and Han claims that they're not interested
28:35SPEAKERin producing ad in boards for AMD or Intel's new GPUs.
28:39SPEAKER- Yeah, like not to just, you know,
28:41SPEAKERcut straight to the chase here,
28:43SPEAKERbut that this is the part of this that blows my mind.
28:45SPEAKERLike obviously there sound like there are some combination
28:49SPEAKERpersonal and business reasons for flushing
28:52SPEAKERthe Nvidia relationship, but like to not replace it
28:54SPEAKERwith what seems like could be a pretty healthy business
28:58SPEAKERworking with competitors, like to just like,
29:01SPEAKERhave we talked about the revenue split here?
29:02SPEAKERLike GPUs are like 80% of EVGA's gross revenue.
29:05SPEAKER- Well, okay, so gross revenue is the important thing there.
29:08SPEAKER- Well, yes.
29:08SPEAKER- The margins on the GPU business
29:10SPEAKERare probably really, really small.
29:12SPEAKER- Yes, that is definitely true too,
29:15SPEAKERif you're to believe all of these reports.
29:17SPEAKER- Yeah, so, well, I mean, I would say that
29:20SPEAKERthat is widely reported enough over the last 20 years
29:23SPEAKERto comfortably put that in the realm of fact, right?
29:26SPEAKER- Yeah, also like the Gamers Nexus,
29:29SPEAKERtheir breakdown that came straight from EVGA
29:31SPEAKERwas it was like 78% GPUs, like about 20% power supplies,
29:36SPEAKERand then 2% for everything else they make,
29:39SPEAKERwhich is like, I don't know, RGB.
29:40SPEAKER- Keyboards, mice, water coolers, stuff like that.
29:43SPEAKERCases. - Butterboards, yeah.
29:44SPEAKER- And they do a custom PC business too.
29:47SPEAKER- Yes, and I think, I want to say he said
29:49SPEAKERthat the profit margins on power supplies
29:50SPEAKERare like three times what they are on the GPUs.
29:53SPEAKER- I can see that.
29:54SPEAKERIt makes sense, 'cause here's the thing.
29:57SPEAKERThe problem with the GPU business is always
29:58SPEAKERthat they're at the mercy of the partner, right?
30:02SPEAKERSo they don't know when new products are coming.
30:05SPEAKERThey don't know what the price is gonna be
30:07SPEAKERon the new products.
30:08SPEAKERThey don't know what their infrastructure cost
30:12SPEAKERfor the assembly line is gonna be for the new hardware,
30:15SPEAKERright, until NVIDIA decides to tell them.
30:18SPEAKERNo, okay, it's also worth mentioning this,
30:21SPEAKERlike NVIDIA's response to this was basically, good luck.
30:26SPEAKER- Publicly or to them?
30:27SPEAKERDo they- - Publicly.
30:28SPEAKER- Oh, wow.
30:30SPEAKER- Somebody requested a quote, I can't remember who,
30:32SPEAKERand the quote was, "Hey, valued partner,
30:35SPEAKER"we wish them the best luck going forward."
30:38SPEAKERRight, so this is an entirely one-sided story
30:41SPEAKERas reported by these two YouTube channels and John Petty.
30:45SPEAKEREverything else that came after that
30:47SPEAKERis based on that initial reporting, including this.
30:50SPEAKERSo, okay, we talked about thin margins.
30:55SPEAKERIn 2016, NVIDIA started selling founders.
30:57SPEAKERSo, okay, why would EVGA do this?
30:59SPEAKERThere's a couple of reasons
31:00SPEAKERthat I think are probably possible,
31:02SPEAKERand it's probably a combination of the three,
31:04SPEAKERif I had to guess, right?
31:06SPEAKEROne, well, they said it wasn't a financial decision,
31:10SPEAKERbut it was a personal decision about respect
31:12SPEAKERin the Gamers Nexus video, which they then said is,
31:15SPEAKERbecause NVIDIA isn't giving them early access
31:17SPEAKERto the hardware, it isn't giving them information beforehand
31:19SPEAKERabout pricing and things like that,
31:20SPEAKERso they can make informed business decisions going forward,
31:23SPEAKERwhich is fair, that is a fair criticism, I think.
31:27SPEAKER- The pricing one in particular is just like,
31:28SPEAKERI'm not quite sure how you're supposed to run a business
31:31SPEAKERand make speculative decisions about something as complex
31:34SPEAKERas building graphics cards and shipping them in volume
31:37SPEAKERwithout knowing what your costs are going to be.
31:40SPEAKER- Well, okay, so here's the,
31:42SPEAKERI mean, they tell you when it's time to order.
31:43SPEAKERYou know what it is.
31:44SPEAKERIt's not like they're ordering GPUs
31:45SPEAKERwithout knowing what the price is.
31:46SPEAKERWhat they're saying is we don't get early access to this,
31:48SPEAKERso we don't know as soon as NVIDIA does,
31:50SPEAKERso they're not competing on a fair ground
31:51SPEAKERwith NVIDIA's founder edition cards,
31:52SPEAKERI think is the point, which is fair.
31:55SPEAKER- So Steve in the Gamers Nexus video
31:57SPEAKERsaid that there is some aspect of the pricing
31:59SPEAKERthat they don't find out until it is announced on stage.
32:02SPEAKERI don't remember if, I guess that's not the volume pricing
32:05SPEAKERfor the GPUs themselves.
32:06SPEAKERMaybe that's--
32:07SPEAKER- I don't know what the MSRP's are gonna be.
32:08SPEAKERMSRP is what they're not finding out, I guess.
32:11SPEAKER- Yeah, so the other thing is,
32:14SPEAKERthe other thing about this that's interesting
32:16SPEAKERis traditionally the add-in board vendors
32:19SPEAKERhave been where every leak has ever come from
32:21SPEAKERthat I'm aware of.
32:23SPEAKERSo NVIDIA not telling the add-in board vendors early
32:26SPEAKERwhat's going on, what MSRP's gonna be and all that stuff
32:28SPEAKERis a direct response to every time they've done that,
32:31SPEAKERit's ended up on the tech press almost immediately.
32:34SPEAKERSo, you know. - Yeah, that seems fair.
32:36SPEAKER- Yeah, pros and cons.
32:37SPEAKERApple had a similar situation where the case manufacturers
32:40SPEAKERdon't know what the iPhones look like anymore in advance
32:42SPEAKERbecause they were all leaky sibs too.
32:44SPEAKERSo. - Fair, fair.
32:46SPEAKER- These things happened.
32:47SPEAKER- Yeah.
32:50SPEAKER- So, okay.
32:53SPEAKER- Founders Edition.
32:54SPEAKER- Founders Edition came out in 2016
32:56SPEAKERand NVIDIA started selling cards directly.
32:57SPEAKERIt was a small business at first,
32:58SPEAKERmostly tied to the really high-end parts.
33:02SPEAKER- So, I haven't followed this stuff super closely
33:04SPEAKERuntil the 30 series was the, 20 series was the very first
33:08SPEAKERFounders Edition cards.
33:09SPEAKERLike that concept did not exist before then.
33:11SPEAKERIs that correct?
33:12SPEAKER- No, I think it was the 10 series.
33:13SPEAKER- Was there a 10 series Founders Edition?
33:16SPEAKER- I think it was the Titans were the founder,
33:19SPEAKERwere the equivalent of the first Founders Editions.
33:21SPEAKER- Okay, got it.
33:22SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause they sold Titans direct to begin with.
33:25SPEAKER- I see, okay.
33:26SPEAKER- And the reason they gave for that
33:27SPEAKERwas that it was a complicated board to make
33:29SPEAKERbecause of the power requirements
33:30SPEAKERor something, I can't remember.
33:32SPEAKER- Am I correct in my perception that the 30 series
33:35SPEAKERwas when the Founders Edition really became
33:36SPEAKERlike kind of a marquee name?
33:39SPEAKERI was not aware of it before then.
33:42SPEAKER- So, they did them in the 2000 series.
33:44SPEAKERI feel like you went...
33:47SPEAKERSo, typically with the Founders Edition,
33:49SPEAKERwhat happens is they're the low price at launch.
33:51SPEAKERAnd then as the new cards come out,
33:52SPEAKERwith the 2000 series is what happened.
33:54SPEAKERThey were the low price at launch.
33:55SPEAKERAnd then the add-in board vendors
33:57SPEAKERstarted competing against each other.
33:58SPEAKERAnd then that pushed their prices
34:00SPEAKERdown with the Founders Edition prices stayed the same.
34:02SPEAKERSo, the cheaper cards ended up being the EVGAs
34:04SPEAKERand the MSIs and the gigabytes and all that.
34:06SPEAKERWhat happened with the 3000 series
34:08SPEAKERis because the Ethereum boom was in full effect,
34:12SPEAKERprices just kept going up no matter what.
34:14SPEAKERSo, Founders Edition prices stayed more or less the same.
34:16SPEAKER- Also, it's like constraints.
34:17SPEAKER- And everybody else's prices were jacked up.
34:19SPEAKER- Right, 'cause remember also the 30 series
34:21SPEAKERlaunched six months into the pandemic.
34:23SPEAKERSo, they were just across the board,
34:26SPEAKERcompletely impossible to get.
34:27SPEAKER- Yeah, so, okay, so there's,
34:31SPEAKERI think there's multiple things happening.
34:32SPEAKERI think the thing about, hey,
34:33SPEAKERwe're not getting early enough information
34:34SPEAKERto make good business decisions and feel respected,
34:37SPEAKERprobably is true, right?
34:40SPEAKERI think that in a world where this is a really low margin,
34:45SPEAKERhigh volume business that involves a ton of risk,
34:48SPEAKERlike each purchasing decision they make
34:50SPEAKERcan sink or swim the company.
34:53SPEAKERI think divesting of even an 80% of your revenue business
34:58SPEAKERto remove that risk, probably not a bad decision,
35:01SPEAKER'cause I don't think it's gonna get any less risky, right?
35:04SPEAKER- Yeah.
35:05SPEAKER- Especially if there's increased capital,
35:07SPEAKERespecially if, say, the 4000 series board
35:09SPEAKERis a multilayer board, is it gonna require a change
35:11SPEAKERin tooling on their production lines or something like that,
35:14SPEAKERand it's gonna incur substantial capital costs for them,
35:17SPEAKERit makes sense for them to say, hey,
35:19SPEAKERrather than spend this money on a thing
35:21SPEAKERthat may or may not continue making money for us
35:23SPEAKERat the rate that we want, we're just gonna not do it
35:25SPEAKERand we're gonna make parts for cars or something,
35:27SPEAKER'cause that's a higher margin, lower risk business.
35:32SPEAKER- Sure, that'll make sense.
35:33SPEAKERI mean, to me, again, I have not kept up with this market
35:37SPEAKERtoo closely until the last couple of years,
35:39SPEAKERbut it seems like the X factor here
35:41SPEAKERis how serious is Nvidia about making
35:43SPEAKERand selling its own boards,
35:44SPEAKERand are they looking to aggressively grow that business,
35:47SPEAKERand is that a major factor?
35:51SPEAKER- I think they're ambivalent.
35:52SPEAKER- Interesting.
35:53SPEAKER- I think that part of the business is small
35:57SPEAKERcompared to data centers and embedded
36:00SPEAKERand all the other stuff that they're doing now.
36:02SPEAKER- Well, sure, but a small business
36:04SPEAKERcould be a bigger business, essentially, I don't know.
36:07SPEAKER- I'm just saying the market for aftermarket gamer GPUs
36:11SPEAKERisn't gamers anymore, right?
36:12SPEAKERIt's people who are doing data center work
36:14SPEAKERand machine learning stuff and all that,
36:16SPEAKERand they're buying 10 GPUs instead of one per machine.
36:18SPEAKER- Well, sure.
36:20SPEAKERSo I guess the TLDR is it's easy for them
36:23SPEAKERto send a reference design board to Foxconn or somebody
36:25SPEAKERand have them just crank out as many boards as they can,
36:29SPEAKERand maybe they don't need the AIBs
36:32SPEAKERfor this stuff as much anymore.
36:35SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess, I mean,
36:36SPEAKERlike maybe Apple is not the best comparison,
36:38SPEAKERbut I'm just kind of looking at like Apple controls
36:41SPEAKERthe entirety of their end-to-end business now
36:44SPEAKERfrom design to manufacturing to distribution,
36:47SPEAKERand I wonder if there's some effort
36:48SPEAKERto move more in that direction, I don't know.
36:50SPEAKER- I think every Silicon manufacturer in the Valley
36:52SPEAKERlooks at Apple's business and it's like,
36:54SPEAKER"You know, we should do that."
36:55SPEAKER(laughing)
36:56SPEAKER- Fair.
36:59SPEAKER- So, okay, so not a financial decision.
37:02SPEAKERThey said it wasn't about the crypto crash,
37:03SPEAKERwhich is fishy to me because presumably, okay,
37:07SPEAKERso if you don't pay attention to crypto stuff,
37:09SPEAKERtwo things just happened.
37:10SPEAKEREthereum, which is the main currency you could mine
37:13SPEAKERwith GPUs, just went to proof of stake,
37:16SPEAKERwhich means that instead of the people
37:18SPEAKERthat are mining new currency, making the decisions
37:20SPEAKERabout what happens with the blockchain,
37:22SPEAKERthe people who hold the most Ethereum
37:24SPEAKERdecide what happens with the blockchain.
37:26SPEAKER- Right, and then to step back another level,
37:30SPEAKERthe people mining, or let me rephrase that,
37:33SPEAKERthe process of mining new Ethereum
37:35SPEAKERis the incredibly computationally heavy part, right?
37:38SPEAKER- Yes, yeah, and it uses a lot of GPU power.
37:42SPEAKERUnlike Bitcoin, which the math for Bitcoin
37:44SPEAKERdoesn't work particularly well on GPUs,
37:46SPEAKERthe math for Ethereum does work well on GPUs.
37:48SPEAKER- Oh, I didn't realize that.
37:50SPEAKERI didn't realize Bitcoin was not mined on.
37:52SPEAKER- Yeah, Bitcoin uses custom ASICs
37:53SPEAKERthat are designed for the specific algorithm.
37:56SPEAKER- Interesting.
37:57SPEAKER- So they get much higher hash rates on ASICs for Bitcoin
38:02SPEAKERrather than you do on running Bitcoin on a GPU.
38:04SPEAKER- Oh, okay, this is illuminating
38:07SPEAKER'cause I was trying to figure out why this one currency
38:11SPEAKERgoing to a less computationally expensive model
38:14SPEAKERseemed to have unilaterally pulled the rug out
38:16SPEAKERfrom under everything,
38:17SPEAKERbut knowing that that was the one currency
38:18SPEAKERyou needed GPUs for makes a lot more sense.
38:21SPEAKER- Well, and then the other thing is for a long time,
38:24SPEAKERas Ethereum's price was going up
38:26SPEAKERand the price of GPUs was relatively stable,
38:29SPEAKERalthough inflated for gamer perspective,
38:32SPEAKERyou could build a mining farm for Ethereum
38:36SPEAKERthat made more money out in Ethereum than it did,
38:39SPEAKERthan it took, than you spent on electricity,
38:41SPEAKERdepending on what the electricity costs.
38:42SPEAKERI mean, obviously in some places that doesn't work,
38:44SPEAKERbut the upshot is people would build these giant rigs,
38:47SPEAKERplug them into warehouses in places,
38:51SPEAKERI assume presumably put a giant fan in there
38:53SPEAKERso the whole thing doesn't just burst into flames
38:55SPEAKERand they would suck in a whole shitload of power
38:57SPEAKERfor absolutely nothing
38:59SPEAKERand take fake money out the other side.
39:02SPEAKERNow, when the value of the Ethereum went down
39:05SPEAKERand also local municipalities and power boards and stuff
39:08SPEAKERstarted cracking down on it, it became more complicated
39:11SPEAKERand the move to proof of stake
39:13SPEAKERmeant that having a bunch of GPUs
39:14SPEAKERwas no longer that useful.
39:17SPEAKERSo all of the miners put their used GPUs on eBay
39:21SPEAKERand other aftermarket sites
39:23SPEAKERand started dumping them at a fire sale prices,
39:26SPEAKERwhich necessarily impacted the cost
39:28SPEAKERof the price of new GPUs as well.
39:30SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause I think we should point out
39:31SPEAKERlike the, I think they refer to it as the merge, right?
39:35SPEAKERThe move to proof of stake.
39:36SPEAKER- Yeah, the Ethereum going to proof of stake
39:38SPEAKERis called the merge, yeah.
39:38SPEAKERIt happened on Thursday, I think.
39:40SPEAKER- Yeah, right, that's the thing I wanted to point out.
39:42SPEAKERThat literally just happened right before this podcast,
39:44SPEAKERbut this trend has been going on for months now, right?
39:47SPEAKERLike it's been several months that 30 series cards
39:50SPEAKERare not just widely available,
39:51SPEAKERbut I'm getting like new egg sale flyers in my email
39:54SPEAKERlike weekly for cards like below MSRP.
39:58SPEAKER- Yeah, so the merge, we knew the merge was like,
40:01SPEAKEREthereum has been talking about going to proof of stake
40:04SPEAKERfor two years at this point, three years,
40:06SPEAKERlike a really long time.
40:08SPEAKERAnd it just never happened, never happened,
40:09SPEAKERnever happened, never happened.
40:10SPEAKERThe momentum finally shifted earlier this year,
40:12SPEAKERso it did start to move in that direction.
40:15SPEAKERAnd that's around that same time the crypto crash happened
40:19SPEAKERwhen all the miners got kicked out of China
40:20SPEAKERand a bunch of other, there were,
40:23SPEAKERlike the crypto stuff is complicated, okay?
40:26SPEAKERThe upshot is nobody was buying new GPUs all of a sudden.
40:33SPEAKERAlso a huge glut of used GPUs flooded the market
40:36SPEAKERthat were top, like unlike usual gluts of used GPUs
40:39SPEAKERthat are last generation boards or whatever
40:40SPEAKERwhen the new cards come out.
40:42SPEAKERThis was the current gen shit coming out at low prices.
40:46SPEAKERAnd so it really impacted demand.
40:49SPEAKER- Can I jump in?
40:51SPEAKER- I was just saying it's worth mentioning
40:52SPEAKERthat this happened to EVGA in 2019 as well,
40:55SPEAKERthe last time this happened on the 2000 to 3000,
40:58SPEAKERlike before the 3000 series boards came out
41:01SPEAKERwhen the crypto prices dropped again.
41:02SPEAKERAnd it was around that time you couldn't mine Bitcoin
41:05SPEAKERwith GPUs anymore for all intents and purposes, I think.
41:09SPEAKERThat might've been earlier.
41:10SPEAKERBut anyway, the upshot is they got stuck
41:11SPEAKERwith a whole bunch of old GPUs
41:12SPEAKERand had to scramble to unload them in 2019.
41:15SPEAKERSo they've messed this up before.
41:18SPEAKER- Yeah, I just want to ask a random question.
41:19SPEAKERWould you trust a card that you bought secondhand
41:22SPEAKERthat had come from a mining forum?
41:24SPEAKERLike just because those cards are worked at full load
41:26SPEAKER24/7 for however long?
41:29SPEAKER- Nope.
41:30SPEAKER- I assume that hastens their oncoming failure.
41:34SPEAKER- It can't be good for them.
41:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
41:37SPEAKER- I mean, I've known people who bought those cards
41:38SPEAKERand had no problems.
41:39SPEAKERI've known people who bought those cards
41:40SPEAKERand had like weird grid-shaped distortion
41:45SPEAKERon all of their things where there's like one memory chip
41:47SPEAKERthat's jacked up.
41:48SPEAKER- Right, like it could run for another five years just fine
41:50SPEAKERor it could die in a week.
41:53SPEAKER- At the very least,
41:54SPEAKERI think I would probably take the coolers off
41:55SPEAKERand replace the thermal pads or the thermal interface.
42:02SPEAKERSo anyway, so they said it has nothing to do with crypto.
42:06SPEAKERI think that's probably not true if I'm being blunt.
42:09SPEAKERLike my guess is that they over ordered 3000 series GPUs.
42:13SPEAKERSo the other thing, this is increasingly complicated
42:16SPEAKERand kind of more financially than we usually get.
42:18SPEAKERNvidia took a $1.2 billion write down on old stock
42:22SPEAKERwith their last quarterly report last month,
42:24SPEAKERwhich means they're saying, hey, we're gonna,
42:26SPEAKERinstead of selling the stock at what we expected to,
42:29SPEAKERinstead of selling these GPUs at what we expected to,
42:30SPEAKERwe're gonna sell them at a lower price
42:32SPEAKERso that we can get rid of them so we can move it
42:33SPEAKERand help the ad board partners sell their remaining stock.
42:38SPEAKERSo presumably they're passing those discounts on.
42:40SPEAKERMy guess is that those discounts to the ad board partners
42:43SPEAKERwho had over ordered 3000 series cards or GPUs
42:46SPEAKERprobably came with some caveats along the lines of,
42:50SPEAKERhey, if you wanna get this write down,
42:52SPEAKERthis money back from us on the write down,
42:54SPEAKERyou gotta sell 4000 to commit to selling 4000 series GPUs
42:57SPEAKERor something like that.
42:59SPEAKERI don't know, that seems like business shit to me.
43:04SPEAKERBut yeah, and my guess is that probably
43:08SPEAKERthe baggage of that along with the crypto softening
43:13SPEAKERand the used market and all that stuff going on added,
43:17SPEAKERlike it just adds more risks
43:18SPEAKERto an already risky market, right?
43:21SPEAKERSo, and it also, just to be clear,
43:25SPEAKERthe last like three years for GPU manufacturers
43:27SPEAKERbeen real good if they can make the hardware.
43:30SPEAKERAnd because EVGA owns its own fabs or owns its own
43:34SPEAKERassembly lines and all that stuff,
43:36SPEAKERthey're in a situation where they could presumably
43:38SPEAKERmake hardware as fast as they can get
43:40SPEAKERthe components that they need.
43:42SPEAKERSo like they're going out on a high,
43:46SPEAKERthey're pulling a Serena Williams here
43:48SPEAKERand going out at the top of their game, right?
43:49SPEAKERThey're not lingering into the waning years of this market.
43:53SPEAKER- Yeah, and I guess it's probably worth pointing out,
43:56SPEAKERlike they are, as of now, my understanding saying
44:00SPEAKERthat they're going to basically just keep paying
44:02SPEAKERtheir employees, even though they don't necessarily
44:04SPEAKERhave a business model to support those roles.
44:08SPEAKER- So the speculation there is that they're going to pay
44:11SPEAKERthe employees that are working the assembly lines
44:14SPEAKERby immediately shifting to other kinds of add-in boards.
44:18SPEAKERSo like there's a massive shortage
44:20SPEAKERon computers for cars right now.
44:22SPEAKERThere's plenty of places that somebody
44:24SPEAKERthat has a big production line that can turn out millions
44:26SPEAKERof boards a year can make money.
44:30SPEAKERI mean, they're like the people whose work is specific
44:33SPEAKERto the video card market probably are not in a great place.
44:37SPEAKERBut it's not like AVGA was writing drivers, right?
44:39SPEAKERThey had overclocking tools, they had motherboard BIOS
44:43SPEAKERand stuff like that that they were doing.
44:45SPEAKERBut for the most part, like it wouldn't surprise me
44:48SPEAKERto see them doing PC, PSUs and then stuff
44:50SPEAKERthat we never hear of.
44:51SPEAKER- I was just about to say, so this actually
44:53SPEAKERcould be a stealth B2B pivot?
44:56SPEAKER- I mean, entirely possible.
44:57SPEAKER- 'Cause that's happened, you know?
44:59SPEAKERI'm trying to think of like, thinking back through my
45:02SPEAKERhistory of building PCs and like some of the brand names
45:04SPEAKERthat you saw go away and then like 20 years later,
45:07SPEAKERyou're shocked to find out like, oh wow, they still exist.
45:09SPEAKER- Like Super Micro just makes workstations now, basically.
45:11SPEAKERI mean, I think you can still buy boards,
45:13SPEAKERbut for all intents and purposes,
45:14SPEAKERthey're a workstation vendor that also sells hardware.
45:16SPEAKER- And server, yes.
45:17SPEAKERSo like Matrox is one that comes to mind
45:19SPEAKERbecause like in the 90s, Matrox was like the go-to.
45:22SPEAKER- You get 2D cards, yeah.
45:23SPEAKER- Maybe you disagree for 2D, like the Matrox Millennium II
45:26SPEAKERwas like the 2D card to get.
45:29SPEAKERAnd that name is long gone from the PC building space,
45:32SPEAKERbut they're totally still around
45:33SPEAKERmaking like video walls and stuff.
45:35SPEAKER- Well, and they do video capture stuff too.
45:37SPEAKER- Right.
45:38SPEAKER- At Whiskey, we had a Matrox video capture box.
45:40SPEAKER- Right.
45:42SPEAKER- So yeah, like I don't, I would not expect you
45:45SPEAKERto buy a whole lot of PC hardware from EVGA,
45:49SPEAKERbut like their power supplies seem good.
45:50SPEAKERI know a lot of people buy their power supplies
45:54SPEAKERand they seem to review well.
45:55SPEAKERI haven't actually seen one of their motherboards
45:57SPEAKERbefore, I don't think.
45:58SPEAKERBut yeah, and then I assume that their mice and keyboards
46:02SPEAKERand stuff like that are rebadged other vendors
46:06SPEAKERwith their own software tacked on.
46:08SPEAKERSo I don't know for sure.
46:10SPEAKERIt also, it really wouldn't surprise me
46:11SPEAKERif the 4000 series boards have some sort of like,
46:14SPEAKERsince all the rumors are talking about like SSD slots
46:16SPEAKERand stuff like that, it wouldn't surprise me
46:19SPEAKERif there's some additional production overhead
46:21SPEAKERthat they would have had to upgrade their lines to do.
46:23SPEAKERAnd he was just like, hey, this isn't worth us investing in
46:27SPEAKERwhen we have a partner
46:28SPEAKERthat doesn't seem to really like us very much.
46:30SPEAKERThe margins are really small.
46:31SPEAKERThe entire business is super high risk.
46:33SPEAKERAnd like, we're living, like we exist at the whim.
46:38SPEAKERWhat is it they say?
46:39SPEAKERI serve and I live to serve in John Wick.
46:42SPEAKERLike basically they live at the whims of Nvidia.
46:48SPEAKERSo.
46:49SPEAKER- Yes, of course.
46:50SPEAKERI should mention here a detail from the gamers nexus report
46:53SPEAKERthat like, not only are the margins just as a rule,
46:56SPEAKERincredibly thin here, as of right now,
46:59SPEAKERthey are actually losing money on the high end cards
47:01SPEAKERthat they're selling.
47:02SPEAKER- Well, I mean, that's cause they bought too many
47:04SPEAKERof the high end cards cause they thought they could gouge
47:05SPEAKERthe crypto people for them.
47:06SPEAKERBut yes, that is, I don't doubt that at all.
47:09SPEAKER- That they're, I think he said in the hundreds of dollars
47:11SPEAKERon the like 30, 80 TI end up level cards.
47:16SPEAKER- I mean, and that could be like, for example,
47:19SPEAKERif Nvidia was like, Hey, we'll take buybacks
47:22SPEAKERon some of these GPU's that you bought.
47:24SPEAKERIf you agree to do 4,000 series cards,
47:27SPEAKERthat could have been their choice, right?
47:28SPEAKER- Okay.
47:29SPEAKER- It's a little bit of a gun to your head,
47:30SPEAKERbut like that's business, man.
47:33SPEAKER- Yeah, some of your speculation here,
47:35SPEAKERmaybe it makes a little more sense
47:36SPEAKERthan the way it was presented in this video,
47:37SPEAKERwhich is that just, they are dropping their,
47:40SPEAKERby far their biggest business and replacing it with nothing.
47:42SPEAKERBut you're kind of suggesting, cause they said,
47:45SPEAKERHey, we're not gonna make boards from Intel or AMD.
47:48SPEAKERThey did not comment on.
47:50SPEAKER- Look, that could be a negotiating tactic too.
47:52SPEAKER- Totally, totally.
47:53SPEAKERThat could change for sure.
47:54SPEAKERI mean, six months from now,
47:55SPEAKERthey could very well be down that road,
47:57SPEAKERbut like you're saying like,
47:59SPEAKERthey aren't necessarily pivoting to nothing.
48:00SPEAKERIt's just that maybe they're gonna pivot to something that,
48:03SPEAKERlike you said, we will never hear or care about.
48:05SPEAKER- Yeah, it's something that makes more money
48:07SPEAKERand doesn't like every single decision you make,
48:09SPEAKERisn't a live and die for the company decision.
48:11SPEAKER- I mean, obviously like big business pivots,
48:13SPEAKERparadigm changes happen.
48:15SPEAKERI think it's just the fashion in which this has played out
48:17SPEAKERin public that is maybe a little eye-opening.
48:19SPEAKER- Like, just to be clear,
48:21SPEAKERthey're calling like, I like,
48:23SPEAKERI obviously have affinity for YouTube.
48:25SPEAKERI worked on YouTube for a long time.
48:27SPEAKERThe running this out through a couple of YouTubers
48:28SPEAKERand not bringing in like ours and the serious,
48:33SPEAKERnot, I don't want to say serious press,
48:35SPEAKERbut you know, the people,
48:37SPEAKERlike I wonder how many people got pitched this story
48:39SPEAKERbefore these folks said yes, right?
48:42SPEAKERLike you've had those ones shop around before
48:45SPEAKERwhere they're like, Hey, we got a scoop for you.
48:47SPEAKERAnd you're like, this is real fishy.
48:48SPEAKERI'm not gonna, oh, I don't know
48:50SPEAKERif I want to get involved in this one.
48:52SPEAKERIt feels a little weird.
48:54SPEAKERFeels a little bit weird.
48:57SPEAKERBut again, it's a private company.
48:59SPEAKERI hope it doesn't cost a bunch of people their jobs.
49:01SPEAKERI know that there's good people doing good work at EBGA.
49:05SPEAKERSo I hope that they have a plan for this.
49:11SPEAKERYeah, and it could be that like,
49:13SPEAKERthis is just a bad business
49:15SPEAKERand he didn't want to like be the bad guy.
49:18SPEAKERHe could just be selling the production line stuff.
49:19SPEAKERI think he wouldn't say he was going to keep the people on
49:21SPEAKERif he was going to sell the production line stuff.
49:24SPEAKERThat's my guess.
49:25SPEAKERYeah.
49:26SPEAKERAnyway.
49:27SPEAKER- Yeah, they asked him if he was looking to sell the company
49:29SPEAKERand he said, no, but it's not quite the same
49:31SPEAKERas what you're talking about.
49:32SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:34SPEAKERSelling out the, like the fab,
49:35SPEAKERthe stuff that they use to assemble the boards,
49:37SPEAKERmachines that they use to assemble the boards
49:38SPEAKERare really valuable and like they depreciate a lot,
49:41SPEAKERbut they're still valuable
49:42SPEAKERfor other less intensive projects, right?
49:45SPEAKER- Yeah.
49:47SPEAKER- Do you want to talk about some PlayStation VR real quick?
49:50SPEAKER- Yeah, we're already here doing current events stuff.
49:52SPEAKERThere were a couple of big stories here on the same day.
49:55SPEAKERI believe just kind of the same day.
49:58SPEAKER- I think so, yeah.
50:00SPEAKERSo they did a PS Direct, right?
50:01SPEAKEROr did they just do a blog post?
50:04SPEAKER- This is from a podcast.
50:05SPEAKER- Oh, okay.
50:06SPEAKER- This is from a, the name, I had it in front of me.
50:08SPEAKERIt's the podcast that Sid Schuman does.
50:11SPEAKER- Oh, okay.
50:12SPEAKERPlayStation podcast.
50:13SPEAKER- Yes.
50:14SPEAKER- Yes.
50:16SPEAKER- In which they revealed the PlayStation VR 2
50:19SPEAKERwill not be able to play a PlayStation VR 1 games.
50:22SPEAKERIt is not a backwards compatible, which I was like,
50:25SPEAKERokay, look, there are major differences between,
50:28SPEAKERin hardware capabilities and tracking methods
50:31SPEAKERand et cetera, et cetera.
50:33SPEAKERI don't know why, but I still kind of assumed
50:35SPEAKERthis would be addressed at the SDK or API level,
50:38SPEAKERthat there would be some kind of translation layer
50:42SPEAKERthere, but.
50:43SPEAKER- So I don't think this is a technical choice.
50:45SPEAKERI think this is a smart choice.
50:47SPEAKERI'm gonna give you a hot take,
50:48SPEAKERthe hottest of hot takes right here.
50:49SPEAKER- Hot takes.
50:50SPEAKER- I posted this on Twitter already.
50:51SPEAKERSo if you read my Twitter, I apologize.
50:52SPEAKERYou're getting a dupe.
50:53SPEAKER- Yes.
50:55SPEAKER- Do you think you want PS VR 1 compatibility
50:58SPEAKERfor your PS VR 2?
50:59SPEAKERLet me tell you, it's not gonna be good.
51:02SPEAKERYou're not gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna load it.
51:04SPEAKERThey're gonna spend a lot of time working on it,
51:05SPEAKERmaking it really shitty.
51:06SPEAKERAnd you're gonna load it and be like, man,
51:08SPEAKERthese games look like ass and they run real bad.
51:10SPEAKERAnd like 20% of people who put the headset
51:12SPEAKERaren't gonna feel a little bit nauseous.
51:14SPEAKER- Well, hang on, when you say run real bad,
51:16SPEAKERare you talking, are you talking internal frame rate
51:19SPEAKERor are you talking like tracking methods?
51:21SPEAKER'Cause those are two different things.
51:22SPEAKER- Well, okay, so tracking methods is just a series
51:24SPEAKERof data points in space, vectorized in space.
51:27SPEAKERSo like converting tracking methods
51:29SPEAKERbetween different hardware is pretty straightforward, right?
51:32SPEAKERSteam VR does it for every,
51:34SPEAKERlike lighthouses use outside in tracking
51:36SPEAKERor like they use inside out tracking
51:38SPEAKERwith points of reference that are established
51:40SPEAKERby the lighthouses for vibes and indexes.
51:44SPEAKERThe Windows MR headsets are almost all inside out,
51:46SPEAKERcameras doing SLAM on the world around them.
51:50SPEAKERThe Oculus does, the original Oculus has cameras
51:52SPEAKERthat track the headsets from the outside in.
51:55SPEAKERThe second gen Oculus uses SLAM on the outside.
51:58SPEAKERIt all just works seamlessly together
51:59SPEAKERbecause you're just like,
52:00SPEAKERyou're literally looking at like three vectors, right?
52:03SPEAKER- Right, right.
52:03SPEAKERWell, so the reason I wanted to ask
52:04SPEAKERis that the PlayStation VR uses,
52:06SPEAKERlargely uses optical tracking.
52:08SPEAKERIt uses a straight up camera that is,
52:11SPEAKERI think originally was intended for other purposes
52:13SPEAKERthan VR that sits on top of your TV
52:14SPEAKERand tracks like literal LED lights on the headset.
52:18SPEAKER- And the controllers and the game pad.
52:20SPEAKER- What's that?
52:21SPEAKER- And the move controllers and the game pad.
52:23SPEAKER- Yeah, and I think the headset,
52:24SPEAKERthe VR one headset does have some,
52:26SPEAKERwhat is it, an IMU, like an accelerometer?
52:29SPEAKER- They all have IMUs, they have to have IMUs.
52:30SPEAKER- Right, but again, a lot of that tracking
52:32SPEAKERis based on a straight up camera looking at the headset
52:35SPEAKERand it is famously bad.
52:36SPEAKERAnd so the thing I wanted to ask was like,
52:39SPEAKERthat's a pretty extreme case of mapping
52:42SPEAKERan extremely rickety tracking method
52:44SPEAKERonto what is much better hardware,
52:46SPEAKERbut like it still could technically be done, right?
52:48SPEAKERYou could still provide.
52:51SPEAKER- You messed up a couple of things here.
52:52SPEAKERI'm gonna call you out.
52:53SPEAKERSorry, Brad.
52:54SPEAKER- Okay, all right.
52:55SPEAKER- Okay, the IMU is an accelerometer and gyroscope.
52:57SPEAKERAnd the reason you need external tracking along with that,
53:00SPEAKER'cause the early Oculus dev kits
53:01SPEAKERjust had the accelerometer and gyroscope, right?
53:03SPEAKERAnd a compass.
53:04SPEAKERYou need the external ones
53:05SPEAKERbecause the gyroscope's accelerometers tend to drift
53:08SPEAKERover time, so you need something that works.
53:11SPEAKERThose work at a high refresh rate,
53:13SPEAKERso they're cycling constantly really quickly.
53:15SPEAKERAnd then you use the external tracking
53:18SPEAKERto lock them back in place
53:19SPEAKERand to counteract the drift, basically.
53:21SPEAKERSo for the headset, I think the PSVR worked pretty well,
53:25SPEAKERassuming you didn't have reflections in the background
53:27SPEAKERthat popped up multiple lights
53:29SPEAKERthat confused the camera, right?
53:31SPEAKER- I never, ever, ever got that thing to behave itself.
53:35SPEAKER- Oh, I used it a bunch,
53:36SPEAKERbut it was definitely susceptible
53:39SPEAKERto interference in the room.
53:40SPEAKERLike it was the fiddliest of the first-gen shit to set up,
53:45SPEAKERI would say.
53:46SPEAKERHaving used it all, definitely a pain in the ass.
53:55SPEAKERThe big problems with the PSVR
53:57SPEAKERwere everything had to run on PS4 launch hardware,
54:00SPEAKERwhich is, by the time even PSVR came out, was old.
54:03SPEAKERAnd by today's standards is ancient.
54:06SPEAKERAnd because VR has to run at a higher frame rate
54:09SPEAKERthan normal console games,
54:11SPEAKERso if a normal PS4 game was designed to run at 30 hertz
54:15SPEAKERon a 1080p display, that's fine, no problem.
54:19SPEAKERIn order to get that same hardware
54:21SPEAKERto do 60 or 75 hertz on the VR headset,
54:25SPEAKERthey had to scale everything down
54:26SPEAKERso it looked shitty like a PS2 game in some cases, right?
54:28SPEAKER- Yeah, of course, yeah.
54:30SPEAKER- But so what you're talking about now
54:32SPEAKERis you're talking about emulating old hardware
54:35SPEAKERthat ran on an old console
54:38SPEAKERon new hardware on a new console.
54:40SPEAKERSo it's like you're like incepting this,
54:42SPEAKERyou're like four layers deep here on bad emulation.
54:46SPEAKERAnd my understanding is that the PlayStation emulated stuff
54:50SPEAKERdoesn't run at a higher frame rates on the PS5, right?
54:53SPEAKER- Well, it's very situational.
54:54SPEAKERIt's like games that didn't get updated,
54:56SPEAKERdid they have an unlocked frame rate?
54:58SPEAKERThen yes, they will run faster by default.
55:00SPEAKER- Okay.
55:01SPEAKER- For example, they use the same graphics libraries.
55:03SPEAKERLike the PS5 is iterative on top of the PS4.
55:06SPEAKERIt's not a, there's nothing
55:08SPEAKERlike wildly different architecturally about it.
55:10SPEAKERSo like presumably, that's why I'm saying
55:13SPEAKERlike presumably some compatibility later
55:15SPEAKERcould have been implemented here.
55:16SPEAKERI'm not saying that like Sony was likely to do that.
55:19SPEAKER- Well, but okay, so the problems,
55:22SPEAKERwhat are the problems?
55:23SPEAKERAnd this is assumption, I don't know any,
55:25SPEAKERI haven't talked to anybody who made PSVR games,
55:26SPEAKERbut this is based on what I know
55:28SPEAKERabout doing tracking in weird situations.
55:31SPEAKERBecause the hand tracking, well, first off,
55:34SPEAKERthe game pad on the PS5 doesn't have any kind of capacity
55:37SPEAKERfor tracking the game pad's position.
55:40SPEAKERIt has an accelerator and an IMU,
55:41SPEAKERbut it doesn't have that big light on the front
55:43SPEAKERthat lets the camera track where it is in space.
55:46SPEAKERAnd a lot of the PS4 VR games use that.
55:50SPEAKERLike the astronaut game,
55:51SPEAKERyou shoot the little guys from it and all that.
55:52SPEAKERLike it's often a key part of the game.
55:57SPEAKERSo game pad games are probably not gonna work right.
55:59SPEAKERThey require that, which is probably like,
56:02SPEAKERmy assumption is the way you look at this,
56:03SPEAKERyou start slicing off things
56:04SPEAKERthat you aren't gonna be able to make work ever.
56:07SPEAKERAnd then you start slicing off things
56:08SPEAKERthat are gonna be bad.
56:09SPEAKERSo when you think about how the hand tracking worked
56:11SPEAKERfor people who had move controllers,
56:13SPEAKERwhich they sold a buttload of those
56:14SPEAKERin bundles with the headsets,
56:17SPEAKERthose didn't do, they did X and Y tracking okay.
56:20SPEAKERSo up and down and left and right were okay,
56:22SPEAKERbut anything forward and back were bad.
56:24SPEAKERAnd my assumption because of the way I experienced those
56:27SPEAKERtracking is that the people who were writing games
56:29SPEAKERlike Beat Saber and Pistol Whip and things like that
56:31SPEAKERthat required pretty precise positioning
56:33SPEAKERof those controllers did a whole shitload of funky math
56:37SPEAKERto interpolate and expect anticipate
56:40SPEAKERwhere you were gonna put those controllers
56:42SPEAKERso that they didn't just fly off into space all the time,
56:44SPEAKERbecause that's what happened on all the early PS move games.
56:47SPEAKERSo now you're putting that software
56:50SPEAKERthat has all this weird interpolation shit on it
56:52SPEAKERon hardware that precisely tracks the hand position
56:55SPEAKERreally well in 3D space,
56:57SPEAKERbecause it's using inside out cameras
56:58SPEAKERand it's state of the art and only the best yada yada.
57:02SPEAKERWeird shit's gonna happen and it's not gonna be good.
57:05SPEAKERSo you take that, you take the fact that there's probably
57:08SPEAKERlike seven, five, six, seven PSVR games
57:11SPEAKERthat are being actively played still.
57:14SPEAKERWell, like Beat Saber and the boxing VR and fitness stuff
57:18SPEAKERand things like that that are like arcade-y
57:20SPEAKERor fitness-y, right?
57:21SPEAKER- I am fully with you on the technical aspect of this,
57:26SPEAKERlike being a lot of work,
57:27SPEAKERlike doing it all programmatically
57:28SPEAKERwould probably be a giant mess
57:29SPEAKERand like it would probably require a ton of actual
57:32SPEAKERlike massaging to make it work acceptably.
57:35SPEAKER- Yeah.
57:36SPEAKER- From the nobody plays those games standpoint though,
57:39SPEAKERlike I would be careful there
57:40SPEAKERbecause like preservation is such a big deal these days
57:43SPEAKERthat like a lot of people are going to tell you like,
57:47SPEAKERwell, yeah, I mean, you're right.
57:49SPEAKERIt's not like that headset is just vanishing from the earth
57:51SPEAKERor something but like-
57:51SPEAKER- Yeah, they're not coming in and taking it.
57:53SPEAKER- A lot of people will tell you it does not matter
57:55SPEAKERhow many people are playing a game anymore.
57:58SPEAKER- But I mean-
57:58SPEAKER- In terms of whether it should still be playable or not.
58:01SPEAKER- But it is still playable though.
58:03SPEAKER- Yes, you're right, you're right.
58:04SPEAKERThose headsets are still around.
58:06SPEAKER- I mean, my only point is they're gonna do all this work
58:08SPEAKERto make this stuff work and then you're gonna put it on,
58:10SPEAKERit's gonna look like a PS2 game in your fancy new headset
58:13SPEAKERand the tracking is gonna be bad.
58:15SPEAKER- Selling the PSVR one a little short there.
58:17SPEAKERLike, yes, some of those games do look pretty bad close up.
58:20SPEAKER- Well, but-
58:21SPEAKER- In terms of like texture resolution and stuff like that,
58:23SPEAKERyou're not wrong, but-
58:23SPEAKER- But like this is a situation where the old headset
58:26SPEAKERwas relatively low resolution and kind of hit the crimes
58:28SPEAKERof the hardware that was running it, right?
58:30SPEAKERSo when you take that and put it on the new higher res
58:34SPEAKERheadset with the higher capability hardware
58:38SPEAKERand you're comparing those old games to the new games
58:40SPEAKERinside the same headset, those are gonna look real bad
58:43SPEAKERand the tracking is gonna be bad
58:44SPEAKERand they're gonna be frustrating and not fun.
58:47SPEAKERAnd like that, given how tenuous VR support
58:51SPEAKERin the community is often, like giving,
58:54SPEAKERlike setting, you're setting yourself up for failure there.
58:57SPEAKERSo especially when doing the upgraded version,
59:03SPEAKERlike there'll be an upgraded version of Beat Saber,
59:05SPEAKERI think even with Oculus owning it now, right?
59:07SPEAKER'Cause like that is a game that prints money
59:10SPEAKERin terms of DLC downloaded.
59:12SPEAKERThere's no downside to them continuing to make new versions
59:16SPEAKERfor all the platforms that it's on.
59:18SPEAKERThey're like, they've continued to support it on Steam
59:19SPEAKEReven after the purchase.
59:21SPEAKERAnd I would expect to see an updated PSVR2 version
59:24SPEAKERof that game and like I said, Pistol Whip and Boxing VR
59:27SPEAKERand all the stuff that people play.
59:29SPEAKER- That would be the ideal.
59:30SPEAKERI think I saw the developers of Moss said that they will,
59:35SPEAKERthat they'll update at least book two,
59:37SPEAKERif not the first one as well.
59:39SPEAKER- Yeah.
59:40SPEAKER- So like hopefully that'll happen for, you know,
59:41SPEAKERand especially like developers who want to stick
59:43SPEAKERwith the platform.
59:44SPEAKERLike I assume there's like there's utility
59:46SPEAKERin porting the old game with new hardware as a test bed
59:50SPEAKERfor like learning how it works and being able
59:52SPEAKERto make new games, but more effectively, right?
59:54SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, if it follows the same kind of,
59:57SPEAKERI mean, we don't have actual sales numbers
59:58SPEAKERon the Oculus stuff on Facebook doesn't release that
1:00:01SPEAKERor Meta doesn't release that.
1:00:03SPEAKERBut if it follows the same path that the Rift to,
1:00:05SPEAKERwell, the Rift 2 kind of doesn't count
1:00:07SPEAKER'cause nobody, it was a minimal interest product.
1:00:11SPEAKERBut the Rift to the Quest, the Quest 2 did,
1:00:14SPEAKERthe potential market size for PSVR 2 games
1:00:18SPEAKERwill be enormous compared to the PSVR 1.
1:00:21SPEAKERLike they sold, how many PSVR 1s they sell?
1:00:24SPEAKERLike four or 5 million of them or something?
1:00:25SPEAKERIt was a relatively small number.
1:00:27SPEAKER- Maybe, well, I mean, I think they touted it
1:00:29SPEAKERas a huge success.
1:00:30SPEAKERI mean, like relative to the PS4 install base,
1:00:33SPEAKERit's a tiny fraction, but I think they were,
1:00:35SPEAKERthey seem very pleased with the, and it may have been,
1:00:38SPEAKERit may have been a decent bit more than five.
1:00:40SPEAKER- Maybe it was 10 million, I can't remember, but.
1:00:42SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know if they ever put like
1:00:45SPEAKERfinal, final sales members out,
1:00:47SPEAKERbut you remember those bundles started going on
1:00:49SPEAKERpretty deep sales at some point.
1:00:50SPEAKERI think they moved quite a few of those things.
1:00:53SPEAKER- Yeah, five million units as of January, 2020.
1:00:58SPEAKER- Oh, okay, well, that's still,
1:01:00SPEAKERthat's fairly respectable, I think.
1:01:02SPEAKER- I mean, I think that probably put it
1:01:03SPEAKERin the top three VR headsets sold until,
1:01:06SPEAKERtop two VR headsets sold until the Quest 2 launched, right?
1:01:10SPEAKERSo, you know, and for something that had the problems
1:01:13SPEAKERthat it had, it's pretty good.
1:01:16SPEAKERI would say that's pretty good.
1:01:17SPEAKERI don't, like I don't, so the reason the MOS developers
1:01:20SPEAKERare gonna support it is 'cause they're assuming,
1:01:22SPEAKERrightly, I think, that they're gonna sell
1:01:23SPEAKERa whole shitload of these because they're gonna ship it
1:01:25SPEAKERwith the hand controllers and they're gonna ship it
1:01:27SPEAKERwith the camera and it'll be a less fiddly experience,
1:01:32SPEAKERsomething I think you just plug in with a USB cable, right?
1:01:35SPEAKERThere's not like boxes and power bricks
1:01:37SPEAKERand all the extra shit you had to plug in with the PSVR one.
1:01:39SPEAKER- It is, so yeah, that's actually
1:01:41SPEAKERin the little tangent here.
1:01:43SPEAKERIt is a single USB-C cable that plugs right
1:01:45SPEAKERinto the front port on the PS5.
1:01:47SPEAKERLike as cable solutions go, it's as simple as it could be.
1:01:51SPEAKERI'm actually, the thing I was gonna say is like,
1:01:52SPEAKERI was excited when I saw that because I've dealt
1:01:54SPEAKERwith these breakout boxes and like one
1:01:56SPEAKERof our breakout boxes failed in the office
1:01:58SPEAKERat one point, for example.
1:01:59SPEAKERBut like, so I was pretty excited to see like,
1:02:01SPEAKERoh, it's one cable and no box.
1:02:03SPEAKERI'm starting to see a lot of people who seem pretty down
1:02:06SPEAKERon it having a cable at all.
1:02:09SPEAKERAnd I'm wondering if maybe that seems a little premature
1:02:12SPEAKERto me to just expect this thing to be entirely wireless.
1:02:15SPEAKER- Well, wireless adds a lot more cost, right?
1:02:18SPEAKERSo when you get into wireless,
1:02:20SPEAKERlike Facebook just raised the price
1:02:22SPEAKERof the Quest 2 a few months ago.
1:02:26SPEAKERAs it is now, it can be a relatively stupid device
1:02:29SPEAKERwith just minimal hardware on it to drive the screen
1:02:33SPEAKERand to do the slam stuff in the headset probably.
1:02:37SPEAKER- When you say, I guess, point out when you say stupid,
1:02:39SPEAKERyou mean like dumb in the sense of a dumb terminal,
1:02:41SPEAKERas in like not having extra hardware.
1:02:44SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, they don't have to have an ARM,
1:02:46SPEAKERan expensive ARM CPU in there, SOC in there.
1:02:52SPEAKERThe big thing I think is,
1:02:57SPEAKERI mean, it depends, it also kind of depends on the cable.
1:02:59SPEAKERThe thing that I liked actually about the PSVR the most
1:03:02SPEAKERis that they did a handful of games
1:03:05SPEAKERthat integrated people sitting in the living room.
1:03:07SPEAKERLike they were designed to be played
1:03:08SPEAKERwith groups of people sometimes.
1:03:10SPEAKERSo like Astro Bot is a good example.
1:03:11SPEAKERYou could do, there were a lot of games in there
1:03:13SPEAKERthat if people were sitting around you,
1:03:15SPEAKERwatching you with the stupid headset on,
1:03:17SPEAKERthey could use game pads and like interfere with you
1:03:19SPEAKERor they could play, people sitting watching the TV
1:03:24SPEAKERcould play with you and see what you were doing
1:03:26SPEAKERat the same time and it was really fun.
1:03:28SPEAKERAnd I think the cable, like in that situation,
1:03:31SPEAKERthe cable's not a real detriment.
1:03:34SPEAKER- I don't know.
1:03:36SPEAKERMy experience with the cable is generally
1:03:38SPEAKERthat after about three minutes of using the cable,
1:03:40SPEAKERmost people suddenly don't have any problem
1:03:41SPEAKERmanaging the cable anymore.
1:03:43SPEAKERIs the cable-free world of a Quest a little bit better?
1:03:46SPEAKERYes.
1:03:47SPEAKERWould I rather pay $400 for a PSVR2 or $800 for a PSVR2?
1:03:52SPEAKERHonestly, that's probably the difference
1:03:54SPEAKERbetween me buying and not buying a PSVR2.
1:03:56SPEAKER- God, do you think,
1:03:57SPEAKERis there really that much addition to the cost?
1:03:59SPEAKERFor something like that?
1:04:00SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, you're basically putting a cell phone
1:04:01SPEAKERon there.
1:04:02SPEAKER- Yeah, fair.
1:04:03SPEAKER- Right, so you have to have a battery,
1:04:04SPEAKERyou have to have an SOC, you have to buy RAM,
1:04:06SPEAKERyou have to buy storage, all of that stuff.
1:04:08SPEAKER- Jeez, yeah, I guess when you put it that way, yes, sure.
1:04:10SPEAKERI mean, do you think $400 is realistic?
1:04:12SPEAKERLike that's something that every time we talk
1:04:14SPEAKERabout this headset, Vinnie always asks when we bring it up,
1:04:17SPEAKERlike, what do you think this thing's gonna come in at?
1:04:19SPEAKER'Cause that's obviously a huge deal
1:04:20SPEAKERand I don't have a great answer for that.
1:04:23SPEAKERI think $400 was where the first one landed.
1:04:26SPEAKERI think obviously there's way more to this one.
1:04:28SPEAKER- $400 was where the first one landed without controllers.
1:04:30SPEAKERMy guess, like, here's the thing.
1:04:33SPEAKERI think if they sell this without controllers,
1:04:34SPEAKERthey've made a mistake.
1:04:36SPEAKER- I don't think they are.
1:04:37SPEAKERI'm pretty sure there's only one bundle or one SKU there.
1:04:40SPEAKER- So like, that's a good choice.
1:04:43SPEAKERThe other thing about not using a wireless thing,
1:04:47SPEAKERyou're up to, the experience that they provide to customers
1:04:51SPEAKERis entirely dependent on which wifi standard
1:04:53SPEAKERtheir router supports and where it is.
1:04:56SPEAKERSo, hey, if you don't want returns
1:04:58SPEAKERon a PlayStation VR headset,
1:05:00SPEAKERthen you sell it to somebody with an 802.11n router,
1:05:04SPEAKERlike, this thing sucks.
1:05:07SPEAKEROr you sell them to somebody with an AX router
1:05:09SPEAKERand it's in the other side of their house,
1:05:10SPEAKERit's still gonna suck.
1:05:11SPEAKERSo yeah, anyway, my guess is 500 bucks, but I don't know.
1:05:16SPEAKERMy guess is they'll price it the same as the Quest,
1:05:18SPEAKERregardless of what the Quest costs.
1:05:19SPEAKERThe difference is they'll probably chuck
1:05:21SPEAKERa game or two in with it.
1:05:22SPEAKERLike, it wouldn't surprise me if they do an updated version
1:05:24SPEAKERof like London Heist and the Astro Bot
1:05:26SPEAKERor a new Astro Bot plus plus the old one.
1:05:30SPEAKER- The Astro's playroom was such a resounding success
1:05:32SPEAKERas a pack-in with the PS5,
1:05:34SPEAKERlike to just replicate that with this headset
1:05:36SPEAKERwould be pretty smart.
1:05:37SPEAKERThat is the true value of a new PlayStation VR to me.
1:05:40SPEAKERIt's not the technical aspect.
1:05:42SPEAKERIt is, well, there are two things actually.
1:05:43SPEAKERComfort is one, like I haven't worn every newer headset
1:05:47SPEAKERon the market, but at least in the PSVR one era,
1:05:50SPEAKERit was by far the most comfortable.
1:05:52SPEAKER- The Halo was really comfy, yeah.
1:05:54SPEAKERAnd easiest to put on and take off headset out there.
1:05:57SPEAKERBut the other thing, the bigger thing,
1:05:58SPEAKERis that Sony just supports it on the development side
1:06:00SPEAKERpretty strongly, right?
1:06:01SPEAKERLike Sony knows how to make good video games
1:06:05SPEAKERand they did that.
1:06:06SPEAKERThey supported developers to make a lot of unique software.
1:06:09SPEAKER- Well, and they put first party developers on them,
1:06:11SPEAKERwhich is like in addition to paying a bunch
1:06:14SPEAKERof third party stuff to come out.
1:06:16SPEAKERThe other thing that's interesting to me about it
1:06:17SPEAKERis they have an IR tracking,
1:06:18SPEAKERso they can theoretically do some phobiated rendering in it,
1:06:21SPEAKERwhich means that when you have eye tracking,
1:06:24SPEAKERI don't know if you realize that people probably,
1:06:26SPEAKERyour brain kind of filters it out,
1:06:27SPEAKERbut like the density of your vision,
1:06:30SPEAKERthe visual acuity is strongest in a relatively small area
1:06:33SPEAKERin the center of your field of vision,
1:06:34SPEAKERwherever you're looking.
1:06:36SPEAKERAnd so you can kind of blur out the areas
1:06:39SPEAKERthat are outside that and do lower F of,
1:06:42SPEAKERlower fidelity on the outer edges,
1:06:47SPEAKERwhich means that then they can apply even more horsepower
1:06:50SPEAKERto the part that you can see really well,
1:06:52SPEAKER'cause they know what you're looking at inside the headset.
1:06:54SPEAKERAnd that is, I think they're gonna be the first ones
1:06:57SPEAKERthat ship that in a way that it'll be usable
1:06:59SPEAKERby average developers.
1:07:01SPEAKER- Oh, is that not in Quest 2?
1:07:04SPEAKER- Quest 2 doesn't have eye tracking.
1:07:05SPEAKER- Oh, I didn't know that.
1:07:07SPEAKER- I feel like there are some headsets
1:07:08SPEAKERthat have eye tracking, like there's a VIVE Pro
1:07:12SPEAKERthat has eye tracking, there's a handful of others,
1:07:15SPEAKERbut you have to do some work on the development side
1:07:19SPEAKERto support them, and because those headsets
1:07:20SPEAKERare relatively low volume, nobody bothers.
1:07:23SPEAKERSo, or very few people bother.
1:07:25SPEAKERSo the fact that Sony is doing it,
1:07:27SPEAKERand presumably it'll be part of the AP,
1:07:29SPEAKERpart of the SDKs, and it'll just work,
1:07:31SPEAKERis pretty exciting, I think, so.
1:07:33SPEAKER- Yeah, well, especially on a fixed platform
1:07:34SPEAKERthat's just going to be less powerful over time
1:07:37SPEAKERrelative to what else is out there, right?
1:07:39SPEAKER- Well, I mean, and that is the other thing,
1:07:41SPEAKERlike the PSVR-1 was announced and finalized
1:07:44SPEAKERat a time when there was still a massive amount
1:07:46SPEAKERof development going on on what VR hardware looks like,
1:07:49SPEAKERand they made some really good decisions
1:07:51SPEAKERin terms of the halo and the way the screen
1:07:55SPEAKERkind of slides in and out in front of you
1:07:56SPEAKERand is comfortable to put on and off.
1:07:58SPEAKERThey've messed up things like the headphones, right?
1:08:00SPEAKERLike, having to put on headphones over top of that thing
1:08:03SPEAKERwas uncomfortable, the earbuds are annoying.
1:08:06SPEAKERThey messed up on things like the box,
1:08:07SPEAKERwhich was a kind of unavoidable side effect
1:08:10SPEAKERof the age of the console that was out when it launched.
1:08:14SPEAKERAnd then the controllers were definitely bad.
1:08:16SPEAKERSo it's much more stable now, like the headsets,
1:08:21SPEAKERlike we're not seeing massive increases in resolution
1:08:23SPEAKERand massive increases in capability.
1:08:25SPEAKERLike eye tracking is one of the last things
1:08:27SPEAKERthat needs to go in.
1:08:28SPEAKERSo they're positioned to be pretty well placed going forward.
1:08:32SPEAKERWhat's the headphone situation like on this new one?
1:08:34SPEAKERDweena, have they said?
1:08:35SPEAKER- I don't remember.
1:08:36SPEAKERThey've put out pretty much the entire info dump.
1:08:39SPEAKERThey actually, in fact, like people have played this thing
1:08:41SPEAKERat TGS as of this past week or the week before.
1:08:44SPEAKER- Are they like general public they had playing?
1:08:46SPEAKER- Yes, well, maybe not, maybe not.
1:08:48SPEAKERI'm not sure if the general public had access
1:08:50SPEAKERor if it was just a behind closed doors,
1:08:51SPEAKERbut it was open enough that everyone has written about it.
1:08:55SPEAKERLike you can find hands-on reports from like the Verge
1:08:58SPEAKERand stuff out there about it now.
1:09:00SPEAKERI don't remember the headphones situation.
1:09:03SPEAKERAre they integrated?
1:09:06SPEAKERProbably, maybe, isn't that what everybody says now?
1:09:09SPEAKER- I'd be surprised if they don't.
1:09:13SPEAKER- No, it still has a stereo headphone jack.
1:09:16SPEAKER- I mean, I guess that's nice
1:09:17SPEAKERso you can add your own headphones, but.
1:09:18SPEAKER- I believe that was the second model.
1:09:21SPEAKERThat's the revision of the PSVR one.
1:09:24SPEAKERThat was the feature, right?
1:09:24SPEAKERThat they included the earbuds
1:09:27SPEAKERor they're like there's a little earbud holders on the side.
1:09:29SPEAKERIf you want to use,
1:09:30SPEAKERI think they maybe give you dinky little earbuds,
1:09:32SPEAKERbut you can also just use.
1:09:34SPEAKER- Mine came with short cable headphones, earbuds,
1:09:37SPEAKERbut it didn't have a way to attach them to the headset.
1:09:41SPEAKERThere's also rumble in the headset, which is interesting.
1:09:44SPEAKER- Yeah, excuse me.
1:09:45SPEAKERExcuse you, haptics.
1:09:46SPEAKER- Sorry, haptics, sick haptics.
1:09:49SPEAKERSo yeah, I don't know.
1:09:51SPEAKERI didn't hate the PSVR one.
1:09:57SPEAKERI don't think it had a microphone either,
1:09:58SPEAKERwhich was a shortcoming.
1:10:01SPEAKERI'm very interested in the PSVR too.
1:10:03SPEAKERI think they've done something pretty compelling
1:10:06SPEAKERand they increased the panel refresh rate,
1:10:08SPEAKERwhich will make less people barf, which is good, so.
1:10:11SPEAKER- Yeah, I'm very bullish on it for basically the reasons
1:10:15SPEAKERI mentioned earlier that like Sony is uniquely positioned
1:10:18SPEAKERto put development resources against this thing,
1:10:22SPEAKERespecially now that the hardware is truly competitive.
1:10:25SPEAKER- And there's kind of a lot of existing software out
1:10:28SPEAKERthat can just switch over,
1:10:30SPEAKERthat like people can port over relatively easy
1:10:31SPEAKERto the new hardware.
1:10:32SPEAKER'Cause like honestly getting the movement stuff to work,
1:10:35SPEAKERI looked at that and was like, oh God,
1:10:37SPEAKERthis is gonna be a nightmare to figure out
1:10:39SPEAKERhow to adjust for the bad tracking on the move controllers.
1:10:43SPEAKER- Yeah, the other thing that is exciting to me about it
1:10:45SPEAKERis that it's just a turnkey solution.
1:10:47SPEAKERLike it's kind of the strength
1:10:48SPEAKERof the consoles have always had, right?
1:10:50SPEAKERLike, especially now that there's no box,
1:10:51SPEAKERyou just plug it into your thing and it works.
1:10:53SPEAKERLike granted, let's say that Windows Mixed Reality
1:10:56SPEAKERis maybe not the most robust platform these days.
1:11:00SPEAKER- I mean, it works the same way.
1:11:01SPEAKERAnd I've found that those headsets are very reliable.
1:11:03SPEAKER- Well, over time, the headset, the hardware,
1:11:06SPEAKEReven though it's an older headset,
1:11:08SPEAKERlike the headset's always been fine.
1:11:09SPEAKERIt's more like at the software level,
1:11:11SPEAKERlike the Mixed Reality hub has broken numerous times
1:11:15SPEAKERas they've updated it on me.
1:11:16SPEAKERAnd like, I would have to like wipe everything
1:11:19SPEAKERand go in and redo all of the positioning set up again,
1:11:22SPEAKER'cause they pushed out another version
1:11:23SPEAKERthat seemed to break everything
1:11:24SPEAKERor it couldn't find the headset again.
1:11:25SPEAKERYou know what I mean?
1:11:26SPEAKER- That happens on all of the headsets except for the Vive.
1:11:28SPEAKER- Okay, that's fair.
1:11:29SPEAKERI don't have an Oculus, wait, I didn't, wait, Oculus?
1:11:32SPEAKERReally, you think they would have figured that out?
1:11:34SPEAKER- My Quest has to, like the Quest,
1:11:36SPEAKERso the SLAM stuff, because of the way the SLAM stuff works,
1:11:40SPEAKERit looks at your, it does like stereo video of your room
1:11:43SPEAKERand then figures out what the 3D space is like from that.
1:11:46SPEAKERIf you like move your chair two inches,
1:11:47SPEAKERit fucks up the calibration
1:11:49SPEAKERand you have to redo the whole thing.
1:11:50SPEAKERSo. - Okay.
1:11:51SPEAKERWell, to be clear, I'm not just talking about it,
1:11:52SPEAKERnot doing the tracking well,
1:11:55SPEAKERI'm talking about like plugging the headset
1:11:56SPEAKERinto the USB and HDMI and having the hub not see the headset.
1:12:00SPEAKER- Well, that's a different problem, yeah.
1:12:03SPEAKERThe, like it used to be that the dog
1:12:05SPEAKERwould walk through the play area.
1:12:06SPEAKERWhile he's using the Quest and it would be like,
1:12:07SPEAKER"Hey, you're out of your chaperone area.
1:12:08SPEAKERYou need to redo, you need to recalibrate this thing
1:12:11SPEAKERor you're gonna die."
1:12:12SPEAKERAnd then you just hit the ignore button.
1:12:15SPEAKERSo yeah, this is, I guess this is our scene drama.
1:12:18SPEAKERPeople were really upset about this on Twitter yesterday
1:12:20SPEAKERand I thought it was pretty stupid, so.
1:12:21SPEAKER- Which part, the VR?
1:12:22SPEAKER- The PSVR thing.
1:12:23SPEAKER- Yeah, again, I think that comes
1:12:24SPEAKERfrom a preservationist's mindset
1:12:27SPEAKERof wanting to just have access
1:12:28SPEAKERto as many games as possible at all times.
1:12:30SPEAKER- Yeah, but choose not kind of come into your house
1:12:33SPEAKERand take away your old PSVR.
1:12:34SPEAKER- No. - Just because you didn't buy a PSVR too.
1:12:39SPEAKERProbably.
1:12:40SPEAKER- Probably, I don't know.
1:12:41SPEAKER- Probably.
1:12:42SPEAKERBrad, we've reached, oh.
1:12:44SPEAKER- I was gonna say, I don't know what he gets up to.
1:12:47SPEAKERWhen he's off the clock, maybe he's out there.
1:12:48SPEAKER- I mean, maybe Greg Rice will come, he's very tall.
1:12:51SPEAKERHe could take your stuff away.
1:12:52SPEAKER- That's true.
1:12:53SPEAKER- Brad, we've reached the point of the show
1:12:55SPEAKERwhere we thank our patrons.
1:12:56SPEAKER- We have, thank you, patrons.
1:12:58SPEAKER- Thank you, patrons.
1:12:59SPEAKERAs always, if you would like to learn
1:13:01SPEAKERhow you can support Brad and Will Made of Techbod,
1:13:02SPEAKERyou can go to patreon.com/techbod.
1:13:05SPEAKERThat's patreon.com/techbod, we're the only one there.
1:13:08SPEAKERThe only tech bod on Patreon.
1:13:09SPEAKER- That's right.
1:13:10SPEAKER- And for as little as two bucks a month,
1:13:12SPEAKERyou can chuck a little bit of cash our way
1:13:14SPEAKERso we can keep doing the show.
1:13:16SPEAKERIf you would, and in addition to thanking
1:13:21SPEAKERour associate producer patrons once a month
1:13:23SPEAKERat the end of the month, which would be, I think,
1:13:24SPEAKERnext week or the week after,
1:13:26SPEAKERwe also like to thank our executive producer patrons
1:13:28SPEAKERevery month, including Paddle Creek Games,
1:13:31SPEAKERmakers of Fractured Veil, Andrew Slosky.
1:13:33SPEAKERBunny Crimes doesn't think code injection is a feature.
1:13:37SPEAKERSeems very specific, but I don't know.
1:13:40SPEAKERWedge, Joel Krauska, and Twinkle Twinkie and James Kamik.
1:13:43SPEAKERThank you all so much, we appreciate you.
1:13:45SPEAKER- Yes, we do.
1:13:46SPEAKER- And we will see you all next week.
1:13:51SPEAKER(upbeat music)