00:00SPEAKER(doorbell ringing)
00:00SPEAKEROof, fucking Jesus.
00:02SPEAKERWhat is that sound?
00:02SPEAKERHoly shit.
00:03SPEAKERThat's our doorbell.
00:04SPEAKEROh my God.
00:05SPEAKERIt's awful.
00:06SPEAKERFucking the worst.
00:07SPEAKERShould we just put that in?
00:09SPEAKERDid we just start?
00:10SPEAKERYeah, we started, that's my doorbell.
00:12SPEAKERThat's my doorbell.
00:13SPEAKERThat is a really,
00:14SPEAKERwell, I don't know if I'm gonna get it in the recording,
00:15SPEAKERbut that is a horrible sound.
00:17SPEAKEROh, I think we should put it in there.
00:19SPEAKERIf this is going in the episode,
00:20SPEAKERthen the doorbell has to go in.
00:22SPEAKERHow are you feeling, man?
00:23SPEAKERYou were a little, a little piqued earlier today.
00:26SPEAKERWill, I just flew in from almost three hours
00:30SPEAKERof PlayStation VR, and boy are my inner ears tired.
00:34SPEAKEROkay, so PlayStation VR inherently isn't bad, right?
00:38SPEAKERLike the Astro game,
00:40SPEAKERI played a lot of games that were good.
00:41SPEAKEREven that Iron Man one where you fly around,
00:44SPEAKERworked really well and played smart.
00:47SPEAKERBut I bet you played something that did not play smart.
00:49SPEAKERAh, Resident Evil 7.
00:51SPEAKERYeah, no, that's not a good one.
00:53SPEAKERI mean, the game's great.
00:54SPEAKERThat's a dumb one that plays dumb.
00:56SPEAKERLook, they, when you're a VR developer,
00:58SPEAKERyou have two ways to go.
01:00SPEAKERYou can be thoughtful and you can build a piece of software
01:03SPEAKERthat respects your users and is not designed
01:05SPEAKERto make them feel bad, or you can choose violence.
01:07SPEAKERAnd Capcom chose violence with Resident Evil 7.
01:11SPEAKERDude, that game does violence to the player
01:13SPEAKERin every conceivable way.
01:14SPEAKERI mean, if you've played it,
01:16SPEAKERnot only does it force you to visit grievous bodily harm
01:18SPEAKERon yourself over and over.
01:20SPEAKERLook, I was too scared to play it.
01:22SPEAKERLike on a screen, I was too scared to play it.
01:24SPEAKERThere's no chance in hell.
01:25SPEAKEROh wait, you told me earlier you was too scary
01:28SPEAKERand you tapped out.
01:29SPEAKERI thought you meant NVR.
01:30SPEAKERGod, no, I was in a fully lit room
01:32SPEAKERat like 11 o'clock in the morning and I was like,
01:34SPEAKERI got to the part where I did the first flashback,
01:36SPEAKERmaybe 40 minutes in and was like, nope, I'm done.
01:39SPEAKERThis is not for me.
01:41SPEAKERNo, thank you.
01:41SPEAKERI have chosen not only to play it in VR,
01:44SPEAKERbut also in front of hundreds of people at one time,
01:47SPEAKERbecause the basis of my entire career
01:50SPEAKERat this point is masochism.
01:51SPEAKERThat's the only way I would do that though.
01:53SPEAKERIf my suffering is entertainment for some other humans,
01:56SPEAKERI would play the scary barf game in VR.
02:02SPEAKERI don't know, that game's really frustrating to me
02:04SPEAKER'cause it's a really well-made game
02:05SPEAKERand they just ignored all of the best practices
02:08SPEAKERfor VR development.
02:09SPEAKERWe're like, okay, here it goes.
02:10SPEAKERHere's the thing.
02:11SPEAKERSo I'm justified in feeling like I did,
02:13SPEAKERthat's been almost three hours
02:16SPEAKERsince I got out of that headset and I still feel queasy.
02:19SPEAKERNo, it's not your fault.
02:20SPEAKERIt's the choices that they made in development of that game.
02:24SPEAKERAnd realistically, it's probably not even
02:26SPEAKERthe developer's fault.
02:27SPEAKERIt's probably that somebody signed a business deal
02:29SPEAKERand was like, hey, you gotta make a VR version now.
02:31SPEAKERAnd they didn't give them any extra resources.
02:33SPEAKERSo they slapped on the VR APIs and shipped it.
02:38SPEAKERAnd the thing about VR sickness is you can't push through.
02:41SPEAKERNo.
02:45SPEAKERYou can build up a tolerance over a long period of time
02:48SPEAKERto that kind of motion sickness
02:49SPEAKERif you do a lot of VR stuff
02:51SPEAKERover months and months and months and years.
02:54SPEAKERBut you're not gonna...
02:56SPEAKERIf you start feeling bad and you go for another hour,
02:59SPEAKERyou're not gonna suddenly be okay with the amount of bad
03:01SPEAKERyou feel, you're just gonna keep feeling worse
03:02SPEAKERand worse and worse.
03:03SPEAKER- That's basically exactly what happened.
03:05SPEAKER- Yeah.
03:06SPEAKER- And here we are.
03:07SPEAKER- It's unpleasant.
03:08SPEAKERNorm almost ruined himself one extra life
03:11SPEAKERwhen he was playing on one of the Oculus dev kits,
03:15SPEAKEREuro Truck Sim, which was also a bad...
03:18SPEAKERIt was a bad implementation before we knew
03:20SPEAKERhow to make good implementations of that kind of game.
03:23SPEAKERBut you could stick your head around to the left
03:26SPEAKERand it would skew your camera perspective,
03:29SPEAKERlike your driver was leaning his head out of the window
03:32SPEAKERto look behind him.
03:34SPEAKERAnd that one even...
03:35SPEAKERLook, I could play VR games on mobile headsets
03:37SPEAKERin the back of moving cars with no problem,
03:40SPEAKERbut that made me feel not great.
03:42SPEAKERSo yeah, I'm feeling sicker just hearing about it.
03:45SPEAKERFollow the rules, man.
03:46SPEAKERThat's all I say.
03:48SPEAKER- Also, you started to say something about PSVR
03:50SPEAKERon the PS5 before we started and I was going to address it
03:53SPEAKERand I had forgotten what it was.
03:54SPEAKER- Yeah, so when I got my PS5,
03:57SPEAKERI got one of those dongles that you could...
03:59SPEAKERYou went to a website and put in your serial number
04:01SPEAKERand they sent you a dongle a few days later,
04:03SPEAKERbut I haven't actually plugged it in.
04:05SPEAKERI was curious if some of the PS4 games that I play on PS5
04:10SPEAKERseem to play better on PS5 than they did on PS4.
04:13SPEAKERAnd I wonder if that's gonna be the case
04:15SPEAKERwith the PSVR and PS5.
04:18SPEAKER- I can tell you almost certainly no.
04:21SPEAKERAnd the reason for that is that they did not extend
04:23SPEAKERthe PSVR API or libraries to PlayStation 5 SKUs.
04:27SPEAKERThose libraries literally do not exist.
04:29SPEAKERThey actually had to come out and address this
04:31SPEAKERshortly after the PS5 came out.
04:32SPEAKER- So it's just straight back compatible.
04:34SPEAKER- Like, you know how they show up in the interface
04:36SPEAKERas a PS4 or a PS5 game by designation?
04:39SPEAKER- Yeah.
04:40SPEAKER- So games that are designated as PS5 games
04:42SPEAKERliterally cannot access the PSVR hardware.
04:45SPEAKER- Well, there you go then.
04:46SPEAKER- So you can only play backwards compatible PS4 games,
04:48SPEAKERmeaning they are most likely exactly the same.
04:50SPEAKER- So does that mean that like the PS4 games
04:52SPEAKERlike Ghost of Tsushima that I played that look better,
04:55SPEAKERit's only because they made a PS5 enhanced version?
04:58SPEAKER- That's a complicated one.
05:00SPEAKERGhost of Tsushima.
05:00SPEAKERSo any game that typically had like an unlocked frame rate
05:04SPEAKERwill actually enjoy benefits from having a frame rate.
05:09SPEAKERLike it'll run smoother than the PS4 version did
05:11SPEAKERby virtue of being able to hit higher frame rates
05:13SPEAKERdue to brute force power, right?
05:15SPEAKER- Yeah.
05:16SPEAKER- Some quote unquote PS4 games with unlocked frame rates
05:18SPEAKERran better automatically.
05:19SPEAKEROthers had to get patches to be PS5 games.
05:22SPEAKERSome got both.
05:23SPEAKER- Great.
05:24SPEAKER- But VR games, I would assume VR games
05:25SPEAKERare like performance tuned so tightly to run on that headset
05:29SPEAKERthat they're probably exactly the same.
05:31SPEAKER- Well, I was gonna say that is the one thing
05:32SPEAKERthat Sony did a really good job on
05:33SPEAKERis I don't think I saw anything that gave,
05:36SPEAKERthat made me feel hinky because of VR,
05:40SPEAKERbecause the frame rate was bad.
05:41SPEAKERIt was mostly because of poor choices
05:43SPEAKERin the movement, so.
05:45SPEAKER- There's anything you want to avoid
05:47SPEAKERin your PlayStation experience, it's the VR hink.
05:50SPEAKER- Man, nobody wants that VR hink.
05:52SPEAKER(upbeat music)
06:13SPEAKER(upbeat music continues)
06:21SPEAKER- Welcome to "Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod."
06:24SPEAKERI'm Will.
06:25SPEAKER- Hi, I'm Brad.
06:26SPEAKER- Hey Brad, how you doing?
06:26SPEAKER- I'm doing...
06:28SPEAKER- Well, do you know what time it is?
06:30SPEAKER- What time is it?
06:31SPEAKER- It is the best time.
06:32SPEAKER- Oh?
06:33SPEAKER- It is the very best time of them all.
06:34SPEAKER- Is it the most wonderful time of the year?
06:37SPEAKER- Look, I need, I felt as I was getting dressed today,
06:39SPEAKERI was like, I need to get a special shirt
06:42SPEAKERfor these most special of episodes.
06:44SPEAKERIt's a ranking of...
06:45SPEAKER- Oh, what?
06:46SPEAKERWhat shirt?
06:46SPEAKERWait, so I can't see your mic is in the way.
06:47SPEAKERWhat is the special shirt?
06:48SPEAKER- I don't have that.
06:49SPEAKERI said I need to get one.
06:51SPEAKERMy shirt just has like a GitHub guy on it right now.
06:52SPEAKERIt's not, it was a Chachki shirt.
06:54SPEAKER- I'm wearing a collared shirt right now.
06:56SPEAKER- Do you have an interview today?
06:57SPEAKER- That's how official this ranking is going to be.
07:00SPEAKERI thought you were gonna say...
07:01SPEAKER- A job at Applebee's?
07:02SPEAKER- Ah, we'll see how things pan out.
07:05SPEAKER- Okay, okay.
07:06SPEAKER- Get back to me in six months.
07:08SPEAKERI thought you were gonna say it's time
07:10SPEAKERto start putting up the decorations.
07:12SPEAKER- Oh, well, I mean, so, okay, we ordered turkey.
07:17SPEAKER- Okay.
07:18SPEAKER- I have a Thanksgiving confession.
07:20SPEAKER- Go on.
07:22SPEAKER- Last year, we did our normal Thanksgiving stuff,
07:23SPEAKEReven though it was only the three of us here.
07:26SPEAKERAnd it was a shitload of work,
07:28SPEAKERand my daughter was off all week,
07:30SPEAKERand I ended up spending basically Friday with her
07:32SPEAKERbecause the other four days we were either cooking or eating
07:35SPEAKERor cleaning the house or doing all this other stuff.
07:37SPEAKER- Wait, you mean all those years
07:38SPEAKERthat I came to your house for Thanksgiving,
07:40SPEAKERyou guys were putting the better part of a week
07:42SPEAKERinto pulling it off?
07:43SPEAKER- No, it wasn't that much.
07:44SPEAKERBut with the kid, it comes into a,
07:47SPEAKERit becomes a little more complicated.
07:49SPEAKER- I feel, I was starting to feel really guilty
07:50SPEAKERabout the single bottle of wine
07:52SPEAKERor bag of King's Hawaiian rolls
07:54SPEAKERthat I brought to those things.
07:56SPEAKER- That's the deal, we invite people to come
07:57SPEAKERand we love to share the, it's like, I love Thanksgiving.
08:02SPEAKER- I should have brought at least two bottles.
08:04SPEAKER- I mean, I don't really drink,
08:04SPEAKERso it's just more shit that I have to give away
08:06SPEAKERto somebody else later, so don't worry about it.
08:08SPEAKER- Fair.
08:09SPEAKER- Or that we have to pound down that day.
08:10SPEAKER- Yeah, I was talking.
08:12SPEAKER- Yeah, anyway, the point is,
08:14SPEAKERlike it's a big, it's like a lot of prep
08:17SPEAKERover a long period of time.
08:18SPEAKERIt's a little bit of prep over a long period of time, right?
08:20SPEAKERLike one day I make pie crust
08:22SPEAKERand then the next day I make the pies
08:23SPEAKERand then, you know, we do all the pre-turkey stuff
08:26SPEAKERand like put together all the casseroles.
08:29SPEAKERAnd then theoretically on the day of,
08:30SPEAKERyou just put it all in the oven,
08:31SPEAKERbut it never actually works out that way
08:32SPEAKER'cause there's always a bunch of other stuff
08:33SPEAKERthat you have to do.
08:36SPEAKERSo this year,
08:38SPEAKERwe just, Gina was like, "Hey,
08:41SPEAKERwhat do you think about ordering Thanksgiving?"
08:42SPEAKERAnd I was like, "Huh, that is an interesting idea."
08:47SPEAKER- To Boston Market.
08:49SPEAKER- Well, we didn't go to Boston Market.
08:50SPEAKERWe went to BuyRight, but like we looked at Boston Market.
08:52SPEAKERBoston Market does a pretty good spread.
08:54SPEAKERI was impressed.
08:55SPEAKERYeah, but we went, we looked at the BuyRight thing
08:58SPEAKERand I was like, "This is probably less money
09:01SPEAKERthan we normally spend."
09:03SPEAKERAnd I mean, I'm still gonna make the pies
09:05SPEAKER'cause the kiddo and I like to make the pies together.
09:07SPEAKER- Those pies are so good.
09:09SPEAKER- But yeah, so we ordered Thanksgiving and it's coming,
09:13SPEAKERlike we just have to warm stuff up in the oven basically.
09:16SPEAKER- That sounds great.
09:16SPEAKER- I think we have to cook the casseroles,
09:17SPEAKERbut like I'm very interested to see how this is.
09:22SPEAKERAnd we get to spend the week with my daughter
09:24SPEAKERwhile she's off school.
09:25SPEAKER- Yeah, that is a worthy trade, I would say.
09:28SPEAKER- Real quick before we move on,
09:30SPEAKERwe last year traded the turkey for roast duck.
09:35SPEAKER- Ooh.
09:36SPEAKER- Yeah, it's pretty awesome.
09:37SPEAKER- You told me about that.
09:38SPEAKER- It's pretty awesome.
09:38SPEAKERWe just, we rolled up to Clement Street
09:40SPEAKERon early on Thursday morning and got in line
09:43SPEAKERand got a freaking duck for Thanksgiving.
09:45SPEAKER- That sounds great.
09:46SPEAKER- It was good.
09:47SPEAKER- I love a duck.
09:47SPEAKERCrispy skin?
09:48SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
09:49SPEAKER- Love that.
09:50SPEAKER- Hoisin sauce, yeah.
09:51SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
09:52SPEAKERDid you get the buns, the little buns?
09:54SPEAKERDid you make the little sandos?
09:56SPEAKER- I can't remember.
09:57SPEAKERMaybe, might've just done the yeast roll thing.
10:01SPEAKEROkay, I know we have to rank.
10:02SPEAKERLet me ask one more very quick holiday.
10:04SPEAKER- Yeah, of course.
10:05SPEAKER- Culinary question.
10:06SPEAKERWe're thinking about trying our hand at the chef steps, Nog.
10:09SPEAKERDo we have time?
10:11SPEAKERHave we missed the window?
10:12SPEAKER- No, I don't age.
10:14SPEAKER- Oh.
10:15SPEAKER- No, I mean, if you want some aged Nog,
10:17SPEAKERI have, I found one,
10:17SPEAKERI cleaned out the free fridge the other day,
10:19SPEAKERI found one in the back.
10:20SPEAKER- Oh no.
10:21SPEAKER- It's all yours if you want it, just say the word.
10:22SPEAKER- From last year?
10:24SPEAKER- Probably last year.
10:25SPEAKER- Wow, huh?
10:27SPEAKER- I don't think I would drink it, but if you, look,
10:30SPEAKERyou don't have kids, you can swing wide.
10:32SPEAKER- If I, hmm.
10:33SPEAKER- Live your best life.
10:34SPEAKER- How hard would I have to spike that
10:35SPEAKERto ensure that it's good?
10:37SPEAKER- Well, the problem isn't the things that are living in it,
10:40SPEAKERthe problems are the,
10:41SPEAKERwhat the things that live in it excrete.
10:42SPEAKERSo no amount of spiking is gonna solve your problem.
10:45SPEAKERYou might just-
10:46SPEAKER- Is it one of those where it's not the bugs,
10:48SPEAKERit's the bugs poop that does it?
10:50SPEAKER- The bugs poop is what kills you.
10:51SPEAKER- Oh no.
10:52SPEAKER- I mean, this could be like a Homer Simpson situation
10:54SPEAKERwith the chili though, you could see through time.
10:57SPEAKERThere's all sorts of options here.
10:58SPEAKER- Maybe we should just make a new batch.
11:00SPEAKER- I mean, the new batch is the safe way to go.
11:02SPEAKER- So you don't age, interesting.
11:04SPEAKER- I don't age.
11:06SPEAKERI don't have enough fridge space to age them out.
11:07SPEAKERI made, like I make,
11:09SPEAKERlast year I made four and a half gallons, I think.
11:11SPEAKER- Wow.
11:12SPEAKER- 'Cause I give a quart to everybody,
11:14SPEAKERlike everybody gets a quart basically.
11:16SPEAKERI used to just give pints and people were like,
11:17SPEAKER"Hey man, you got any more of that nog?"
11:19SPEAKER- Can I confess the reason that I want to make our own nog?
11:22SPEAKER- 'Cause you don't wanna have to ask me
11:24SPEAKERif you want any more of that nog.
11:25SPEAKER- No, I wouldn't do that
11:26SPEAKER'cause other people need their nog too.
11:27SPEAKERBut it was like,
11:29SPEAKERit was so good that we rationed it last year.
11:31SPEAKERLike we had to think long and hard every time we poured some.
11:34SPEAKERSo it was like, there's not much of this to go around.
11:35SPEAKERWe gotta make it count.
11:36SPEAKER- If you have a sous vide,
11:38SPEAKERthe thing to remember is every glass of nog
11:39SPEAKERis basically like a bowl of ice cream
11:42SPEAKERin terms of caloric load.
11:43SPEAKER- That's fair.
11:45SPEAKER- The other thing to know is that
11:49SPEAKERonce you get midway through the second quart,
11:52SPEAKERyou're gonna be like,
11:52SPEAKER"Oh, I've reached the nog of sadness level."
11:56SPEAKER- Oh no.
11:57SPEAKER- Nog is a thing where a little bit goes a really long way.
12:00SPEAKERAnd I think that having the less amount
12:03SPEAKERkind of aids its desirability.
12:06SPEAKER- Now let me ask, are we talking in one sitting?
12:08SPEAKER- Oh God, no, not no, no, no, no, no.
12:10SPEAKERI mean like-
12:11SPEAKER- We're talking about through the season do you mean?
12:13SPEAKER- Yeah, through the season.
12:14SPEAKER- Interesting, okay.
12:15SPEAKER- But if you start at like Thanksgiving,
12:16SPEAKERusually I start like the 10th of December.
12:18SPEAKERSo if you start at Thanksgiving,
12:20SPEAKERlike two quarts might be the right number.
12:22SPEAKER- Okay.
12:22SPEAKER- It's a very easy,
12:25SPEAKERyou have to separate the eggs,
12:27SPEAKERwhich is the only hard part.
12:29SPEAKERYou wanna make sure you strain it
12:30SPEAKERbefore you put it in the jars
12:32SPEAKER'cause like there's little bits of cooked egg in there
12:34SPEAKERusually in there gross when you're drinking it, ugh.
12:38SPEAKERBut yeah, it's not a hard thing to make.
12:39SPEAKERIf you have a sous vide especially, it's really easy.
12:42SPEAKER- We have a hand-me-down, anova, I think is all.
12:45SPEAKER- Yeah, those are great.
12:46SPEAKER- We've never used, but it was gifted to us
12:48SPEAKERfrom some family member who doesn't use it anymore.
12:50SPEAKER- It's really nice for canning.
12:52SPEAKERI use, we use ours all the time.
12:53SPEAKERIt's a handy thing, but like, yeah, that's perfect.
12:56SPEAKERSo yeah, I highly encourage everybody to make nog.
12:58SPEAKERThe one I do is the chef's steps recipe.
13:01SPEAKERI don't put the rum extract in it or the almond extract,
13:03SPEAKERwhatever the extract they recommend is,
13:06SPEAKERbecause I like to let people,
13:07SPEAKERif they wanna put bourbon or rum
13:08SPEAKERor whatever they can put their own booze in.
13:10SPEAKER- And I do.
13:11SPEAKER- Yeah.
13:13SPEAKER- All right.
13:14SPEAKER- Okay, ranking.
13:15SPEAKER- Time to rank.
13:15SPEAKER- We're ranking game pads today.
13:17SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know, how did that happen?
13:18SPEAKER- I said, hey, Brad, I think we should rank game pads.
13:21SPEAKER- That's pretty much how it happened.
13:22SPEAKER- Yeah, actually.
13:26SPEAKERLook, this is gonna be divisive.
13:28SPEAKERWe should get this out of the way up front.
13:29SPEAKER- Well, I mean, you instantly just said
13:31SPEAKERwhat your number one was and I said,
13:33SPEAKERthat's the bottom of the list.
13:34SPEAKER- What did I say?
13:35SPEAKERHold on, what?
13:36SPEAKER- Well, should we spoil it or?
13:39SPEAKER- I can make a pretty good argument in favor of it,
13:41SPEAKERbut we let's, so let's get through the rules first.
13:43SPEAKERI think we should establish the rules.
13:44SPEAKER- Yes, last time we ranked something, we ranked,
13:47SPEAKERI am even now struggling to define exactly what it was.
13:51SPEAKER- PC upgrades.
13:52SPEAKER- The top PC upgrades that have made life easier over time
13:56SPEAKERor something along those lines.
13:58SPEAKER- Perfectly chromulent list of things to rank.
14:00SPEAKER- Let me tell you from experience,
14:02SPEAKERwhen you rank things, people prefer for that ranking
14:05SPEAKERto be very clearly defined.
14:08SPEAKER- If I were doing the PC upgrades again,
14:10SPEAKERwhich maybe we'll do next year, who knows?
14:12SPEAKERI would probably spend one episode defining things
14:14SPEAKERthat fit into the, that are to be ranked
14:17SPEAKERand then spend the second episode ranking them
14:19SPEAKERinstead of just kind of having a rambling rank fest
14:21SPEAKERover two episodes.
14:22SPEAKER- It was definitely a rank fest.
14:24SPEAKER- It got rank in there.
14:26SPEAKER- Very ranky.
14:28SPEAKER- Okay, so we have some criteria here.
14:31SPEAKERWe're not gonna do things that predate the NES.
14:34SPEAKERLike there's a bunch of interesting weird controllers
14:35SPEAKERin like the Intellivision 2600 and TI-994A era.
14:39SPEAKER- Dials and knobs and keypads.
14:42SPEAKER- They're like cards you slide in with keypads.
14:44SPEAKERI didn't, the only ones of those I ever used
14:46SPEAKERwere the Atari 2600 and a TI-994A.
14:49SPEAKER- Yeah, and let's be honest, those ain't gonna rank.
14:52SPEAKER- Both of them are bad by today's standards.
14:54SPEAKERIf I was ranking those, the Atari would be ahead of the TI.
14:58SPEAKER- Wow, geez, that's, okay.
15:01SPEAKER- It's just 'cause the TI is always,
15:02SPEAKERthe move right always stopped working.
15:07SPEAKEROkay, so we're not gonna talk about anything before the NES.
15:11SPEAKERWe're talking about mainline console controllers.
15:13SPEAKERSo not third-party stuff, unless the third party became
15:19SPEAKERlike the primary defacto controller,
15:21SPEAKERwhich I don't think anything fits that category.
15:23SPEAKER- I can't really even think of an example there.
15:26SPEAKERAnd this is console only, we're not getting into PC stuff.
15:30SPEAKER- Look, if we get into PC stuff,
15:31SPEAKERif I have to talk about the space orb here.
15:34SPEAKER- Yes.
15:35SPEAKER- That's a whole different episode, I think.
15:37SPEAKER- Was that the weird, the gyroscopic thing with the arms
15:40SPEAKERthat I think we have one in the whiskey office?
15:42SPEAKER- That's the Novant Falcon.
15:43SPEAKER- Was that the Novant Falcon, really?
15:44SPEAKER- Novant Falcon has become one of the most desirable
15:46SPEAKERsex toys on the internet.
15:47SPEAKERThey sell for an unbelievable amount of money
15:49SPEAKERlast time I looked.
15:50SPEAKER- Please tell me you're joking.
15:51SPEAKER- I'm not joking.
15:53SPEAKER- Yes, that is in fact, I'm looking it up.
15:56SPEAKER- Don't Google, don't Google why you would want that.
15:58SPEAKER- Dude, I have to, what?
15:59SPEAKERI'm not gonna look at the why,
16:00SPEAKERI wanna know how much it's worth though.
16:02SPEAKER- Okay, so we're not gonna do any weird third-party stuff.
16:05SPEAKERSo the U-Force and the Power Glove
16:07SPEAKERand all the weird screwball controllers
16:10SPEAKERthat came on in the PS1 era and all that,
16:13SPEAKERnot talking about that stuff.
16:15SPEAKER- No NegCon, no JogCon, no GunCon.
16:19SPEAKER- We're not talking about all the weird sticks,
16:21SPEAKERthe game pads that people released to replace
16:23SPEAKERthe shitty N64 one either.
16:25SPEAKERThat's not gonna come up, we're not getting into it.
16:27SPEAKER- Yeah.
16:29SPEAKER- We're not talking about fight sticks or flight sticks
16:31SPEAKERor wheels or dance pads, just the multi-purpose controllers.
16:35SPEAKER- We are here to just rank apples to apples,
16:38SPEAKERessentially the packed-in controllers,
16:39SPEAKERwith some exceptions, like on the PlayStation 1
16:43SPEAKERwhere they made significant technological advancements.
16:46SPEAKER- Xbox, the original Xbox.
16:48SPEAKERLet's say when analog control came about.
16:52SPEAKER- Okay, so where do you wanna start
16:54SPEAKERat what you think is the bottom of the list
16:56SPEAKERand work our way up?
16:57SPEAKER- Should we, here.
16:58SPEAKER- Or should we go chronological here?
17:00SPEAKER- You made a pretty comprehensive list
17:02SPEAKERbefore we even got in here.
17:04SPEAKERHow about I just go down the line?
17:06SPEAKER- Okay.
17:06SPEAKER- And read off what we got here.
17:08SPEAKER- Okay.
17:10SPEAKER- Should I read all of our notes along with it?
17:12SPEAKER- No, the notes are for internal use only.
17:15SPEAKER- Okay, okay, so the NES has the game pad,
17:19SPEAKERthe NES Max, and the Advantage listed.
17:22SPEAKER- All first-party controls.
17:23SPEAKER- Yes.
17:24SPEAKER- The Advantage is borderline fight stick,
17:26SPEAKERbut as you pointed out,
17:27SPEAKERno fight games use the stick at that point.
17:30SPEAKER- This is just a useless piece of minutiae,
17:32SPEAKERbut I wanna say the Advantage was definitely Nintendo-branded
17:37SPEAKERand released and marketed by Nintendo,
17:39SPEAKERbut I wanna say they didn't actually make it.
17:41SPEAKERThat's right, ASCIIWare made the Advantage.
17:44SPEAKER- I had my Advantage here.
17:45SPEAKER- Wait, really?
17:46SPEAKER- Yeah.
17:47SPEAKER- Man, we were a Max household.
17:50SPEAKEREverybody else-
17:51SPEAKER- I always wanted the Max.
17:52SPEAKERIt looked cool.
17:53SPEAKER- Wait, no, trust me, you came out ahead.
17:55SPEAKEREverybody, I knew you had the Advantage.
17:57SPEAKERI was very jealous.
17:59SPEAKEROkay, so let's see.
18:04SPEAKERPoor Sega Master System, we didn't even mention that one,
18:06SPEAKERbut it's basically just the worst version of the NES pad.
18:12SPEAKERDoes not bear mentioning.
18:14SPEAKER- I'm putting it at the bottom of the list.
18:15SPEAKER- It's a D-pad and two face buttons
18:17SPEAKERwith no start and select buttons, if I remember.
18:19SPEAKERAnyway, okay, so Super Nintendo, Genesis,
18:24SPEAKERboth the three-button and six-button,
18:27SPEAKERthe TurboGrafx and PC Engine controller, which...
18:31SPEAKERAll right, PlayStation 1,
18:33SPEAKERyou got the included D-pad controller, the dual analog,
18:38SPEAKERand then later the dual shock.
18:41SPEAKERThe Saturn six-button pad, the Nintendo 64 controller.
18:46SPEAKER- All 3Z there.
18:48SPEAKERYep.
18:50SPEAKER- The Dreamcast with what you described
18:53SPEAKERas the little Tamagotchi thing.
18:54SPEAKER- Yep.
18:57SPEAKER- Let's see.
18:59SPEAKERThe Xbox array of products, including the Duke and the S.
19:06SPEAKER- I think the original one was technically called
19:07SPEAKERthe Xbox controller.
19:08SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know.
19:09SPEAKER- I think any arcade called it the Duke,
19:11SPEAKERbut I can't remember.
19:12SPEAKER- Duke was definitely a term of endearment, I think.
19:15SPEAKER- I still call my phone, the big phone, the Duke.
19:17SPEAKER- That's, okay, sure.
19:20SPEAKEROkay, the GameCube, the GameCube controller.
19:24SPEAKER- Yes.
19:25SPEAKER- The GameCube controller.
19:26SPEAKER- Also the Wavebird, don't forget the Wavebird.
19:28SPEAKER- Yeah.
19:29SPEAKER- That was the first wireless, man.
19:30SPEAKER- No, no, no, it's definitely significant,
19:32SPEAKERbut it's just a GameCube controller, but wireless,
19:34SPEAKERlike that's kind of it.
19:36SPEAKER- But wireless.
19:36SPEAKER- At the time, trust me, I mean, I get it, yes.
19:39SPEAKERBig deal, but the PlayStation 2 controller,
19:43SPEAKERthe Xbox 360 controller, the Wii, the DualShock 3,
19:50SPEAKERthey called it DualShock 3, right?
19:51SPEAKERPlayStation 3 controller.
19:53SPEAKER- You know, it starts with--
19:53SPEAKER- Also, no, no they did not, it was the 6-axis.
19:55SPEAKERGod, what is wrong with me?
19:56SPEAKER- It was the 6-axis, yeah, 'cause they didn't have
19:57SPEAKERthe shock for a while in there, right?
19:59SPEAKER- I'm writing the word 6-axis here because it's so dumb.
20:02SPEAKER- They didn't wanna pay, they didn't wanna pay
20:05SPEAKERthe IP holder who, iMotion, or whoever owned
20:08SPEAKERthe rumble technology.
20:09SPEAKER- Is that who it was?
20:10SPEAKER- Haptic, I think it was iMotion, I'd have to look.
20:12SPEAKER- I feel like I need to hang up my game's press hat,
20:14SPEAKERif I couldn't remember the word 6-axis.
20:18SPEAKERLet's see, Xbox One, Wii U, which is the giant game pad.
20:23SPEAKER- Oh, should we talk about the pro controller in there?
20:25SPEAKERI feel like it's just a normal, pretty good game pad.
20:28SPEAKER- It counts.
20:29SPEAKER- Yeah.
20:30SPEAKER- The DualShock 4 on the PS4, the Switch, Joy-Cons,
20:33SPEAKERand pro controller, which I think we can pretty much
20:36SPEAKERdismiss out of hand, due to lack of reliability.
20:41SPEAKERThe Xbox Series controllers, are we sold on that?
20:46SPEAKER- I think that they're basically Xbox One controllers.
20:48SPEAKER- Sorry, sorry, let me clarify, the phrase Xbox Series,
20:51SPEAKERI've seen that popping up more and more to refer
20:53SPEAKERto this kind of family of Xboxes.
20:55SPEAKER- Look, man, it's either that or the fourth generation Xbox,
20:58SPEAKER'cause what else am I, their naming scheme is so--
21:02SPEAKER- It's not great.
21:03SPEAKER- Look, I have to say shipping on Xbox One, Xbox One S,
21:08SPEAKERXbox One X, Xbox Series S, and Xbox Series X,
21:12SPEAKERall the damn time, I'm tired of it.
21:14SPEAKER- Wow.
21:15SPEAKER- I've had enough Microsoft.
21:16SPEAKER- That is a lot.
21:16SPEAKER- Get it together, man.
21:18SPEAKER- That is a lot.
21:19SPEAKERWould you believe that on Halo Infinite launch day,
21:23SPEAKERthe entire week of Halo Infinite's launch,
21:26SPEAKERI will be in a location with only a 2013 launch model Xbox One
21:31SPEAKERat my disposal.
21:31SPEAKER- That's a perfect machine to play.
21:34SPEAKERDo you wanna borrow my Xbox S to take with you?
21:37SPEAKER- Wow, that's actually very generous.
21:39SPEAKERNo, I don't wanna damage it.
21:40SPEAKER- It's tiny, dude.
21:41SPEAKERIt's like smaller, like that circle is the size of a CD.
21:45SPEAKER- Is it, wait, are you serious?
21:46SPEAKERI've never seen an Xbox Series S in person.
21:49SPEAKER- Hold on.
21:50SPEAKER- Like, or even on, well, I guess I've seen somebody
21:52SPEAKERhold one up to a webcam before.
21:53SPEAKER- So that's, oh, what?
21:57SPEAKER- Oh, man, it's keying out completely.
21:58SPEAKERIt's going very cyber.
22:00SPEAKER- This is it next to my head.
22:01SPEAKER- It is completely disappearing from view.
22:03SPEAKERIs that Nvidia trying to--
22:04SPEAKER- Nvidia's jacking me up.
22:06SPEAKER- Remove competing products from your webcam.
22:08SPEAKER- This is real compelling.
22:09SPEAKERHere we go.
22:10SPEAKER- There it is.
22:11SPEAKER- So like, I was trying to put it up really close
22:12SPEAKERso it looked huge, but it's like,
22:15SPEAKERit's like it's really small.
22:17SPEAKER- That's pretty damn small.
22:18SPEAKER- Yeah, it would fit in your bag.
22:19SPEAKER- That's very generous of you.
22:21SPEAKERI will consider it, but I would hate
22:23SPEAKERfor something to happen to it.
22:24SPEAKER- Oh, wow.
22:25SPEAKERI mean.
22:26SPEAKER- Actually, I was also thinking about trying
22:27SPEAKERto take my mister on that trip.
22:28SPEAKERWhat do you think?
22:29SPEAKER- I think that's a good call.
22:30SPEAKER- That's a fun family activity.
22:32SPEAKER- Oh, no, no, no.
22:32SPEAKERLike for that, totally.
22:33SPEAKERI want to, my cousin would love it.
22:34SPEAKERMy dad would love it.
22:35SPEAKERBut like I'm talking, it's not in a case exactly.
22:38SPEAKERThere are some like pretty visible PCBs.
22:41SPEAKER- I just put my carry on.
22:43SPEAKER- I mean, that was, yeah.
22:44SPEAKERI was definitely planning to do that.
22:45SPEAKERI just, I don't know how TSA is
22:46SPEAKERabout like exposed circuit boards these days.
22:48SPEAKER- It's probably fine.
22:50SPEAKER- Okay, I'm trying.
22:52SPEAKERAll right.
22:54SPEAKER- I mean, take a shipping envelope, shipping label printed
22:58SPEAKERso you can chuck it in a FedEx box if you have to.
23:01SPEAKER- Yeah.
23:02SPEAKER- Anyway, yeah.
23:03SPEAKER- Okay.
23:04SPEAKERXbox series controllers and the dual sense.
23:08SPEAKER- Do we feel like the Xbox series controller
23:10SPEAKERis distinct enough from the Xbox one controller
23:13SPEAKERto consider it a separate controller?
23:14SPEAKERI think this is the first point of contention.
23:16SPEAKER- It is a really minor incremental upgrade.
23:20SPEAKERIt is an upgrade.
23:22SPEAKER- I mean.
23:24SPEAKER- It's mostly in the feel and the kind of.
23:28SPEAKER- It's matte, the triggers are matte.
23:29SPEAKER- Yeah, so it's like that.
23:30SPEAKERI love the texture on those triggers though.
23:32SPEAKER- It's very good.
23:34SPEAKERIt feels like the same triggers, just different texture.
23:36SPEAKER- I've got one right here
23:38SPEAKERand I'm touching that texture right now.
23:40SPEAKERAnd it's very pleasing.
23:42SPEAKER- I know it feels really nice.
23:43SPEAKEROkay, so.
23:44SPEAKER- I'm pleasing on the fingertip.
23:45SPEAKER- I don't like the D pad on that thing.
23:48SPEAKER- Okay, I'm gonna stop talking about this finish.
23:50SPEAKER- Okay, so I'm gonna make a numbered list
23:52SPEAKERbelow the thing now.
23:56SPEAKER- Okay.
23:56SPEAKER- I'm gonna start putting controllers on from worse.
23:59SPEAKERI think we can put Sega Master System
24:01SPEAKERdown toward the bottom, right?
24:02SPEAKER- Yes, well, we should say this is like a top 10, right?
24:06SPEAKER- Are we gonna just do a top 10?
24:07SPEAKER- Let's do a top 10.
24:08SPEAKER- Okay, that's probably a smarter choice.
24:10SPEAKER- Everything that doesn't make the cut
24:12SPEAKERwill be banished to the dustbin of history.
24:15SPEAKER- Okay, I feel like DualSense is definitely on the list.
24:18SPEAKER- Probably, if it was like quite literally a year ago
24:23SPEAKERwhen the PlayStation 5 had been out for like all of what,
24:25SPEAKERa day, when did the thing come out last year?
24:27SPEAKER- Right around now, a year ago.
24:29SPEAKER- If it was a year ago, I would be like,
24:30SPEAKERabsolutely, that thing is like near the top, but.
24:34SPEAKER- What is it, is it not aging well for you?
24:36SPEAKER- The reliability issues are a real black mark
24:39SPEAKERon that thing, I think.
24:40SPEAKER- Oh man, I really like mine,
24:42SPEAKERbut I also don't play that many gamepad games these days.
24:44SPEAKER- And I'm starting to feel,
24:46SPEAKERand I think I'm not alone in this,
24:48SPEAKERI'm starting to feel some pretty significant
24:50SPEAKERresistive trigger fatigue.
24:53SPEAKER- It's hard on my hands.
24:55SPEAKER- Yes, like that's kind of part of what it is,
24:57SPEAKERis like, it kind of isn't always very comfortable
24:59SPEAKERto have to fight against that thing a lot.
25:01SPEAKERAnd in some cases, in some cases,
25:04SPEAKERI feel like it gets in the way,
25:05SPEAKERlike a lot of shooters are using it now.
25:07SPEAKERAnd in a lot of cases,
25:07SPEAKERit feels like I kind of wish it wasn't there.
25:09SPEAKER- So the thing that I did with that controller specifically
25:14SPEAKERis I, my initial reaction when I set it up
25:17SPEAKERwas set it to 100% maximum strength all the time,
25:20SPEAKERbecause that's what you always do.
25:21SPEAKER- Yeah.
25:22SPEAKER- Like I don't want any 40% rumble.
25:24SPEAKERI want 100%, I'd go 110% rumble if they let me.
25:27SPEAKER- Of course.
25:28SPEAKER- I think that was a mistake.
25:29SPEAKERI turned it down to about 70%, much better.
25:32SPEAKER- So were those controls in there at launch?
25:34SPEAKERWell, I guess you didn't have one at launch.
25:35SPEAKER- I didn't, I don't have a-
25:36SPEAKER- I don't remember the option to lessen that effect
25:39SPEAKERbeing in there at launch, but maybe it was.
25:41SPEAKER- It was part of the setup process when I got my PS5.
25:43SPEAKERIt was like, "Hey, try this and see what you think."
25:46SPEAKER- Yeah, it's very possible.
25:47SPEAKERIt was always in there and I just didn't notice it.
25:49SPEAKERBut I think I need to do that too,
25:50SPEAKER'cause I think that feature was way cooler on paper.
25:54SPEAKERLike Asterisk Playroom was an amazing demo
25:56SPEAKERfor that technology.
25:58SPEAKER- Well, I really like it in racing games and stuff like that.
26:01SPEAKERI like feeling the slide a little bit.
26:03SPEAKERIt feels good.
26:03SPEAKER- Sure, yeah, I could see that.
26:05SPEAKERI think it's mostly first-person shooters for me.
26:07SPEAKERI just have not used it very well.
26:09SPEAKER- Yeah.
26:10SPEAKER- Like having to fight to good aim down sights,
26:13SPEAKERlike to push harder than you want, not a good feeling.
26:16SPEAKER- I turned it down when I was playing Ratchet,
26:18SPEAKERjust because it was nice to have the feedback
26:20SPEAKERto let me know which gun I had
26:21SPEAKERwithout even really having to look.
26:23SPEAKERBut yeah, I turned it down
26:24SPEAKERbecause my fingers were getting tired
26:25SPEAKERand I was starting to get like,
26:27SPEAKERit was like almost RSI-type pains in my wrists,
26:30SPEAKERwhere the tendons that pull the fingers in
26:32SPEAKERwere getting stressed.
26:34SPEAKER- Okay, I think DualSense is probably a top 10.
26:36SPEAKERIt's maybe not like near the top,
26:38SPEAKERlike I would have said at one time.
26:40SPEAKER- I think, okay, we can work on that.
26:43SPEAKERBut I feel like the resistive triggers,
26:45SPEAKERlike I feel like the fact that we maybe set them too high,
26:47SPEAKERmaybe they defaulted too high,
26:49SPEAKERis a cool technology, man.
26:51SPEAKERI think it's more impactful than anything
26:53SPEAKERsince the first Rumble controllers, probably,
26:55SPEAKERin terms of like- - Yeah, sure, yes.
26:57SPEAKEROverall, yeah.
26:59SPEAKEROverall, the tech in that thing is quite impressive.
27:01SPEAKERBut there is something to be said
27:02SPEAKERfor the out-of-box experience being less than ideal,
27:05SPEAKERor ideal, you know what I mean?
27:08SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess.
27:09SPEAKER- Like if it's cool on paper,
27:11SPEAKERbut then actually using it in the way that they default to
27:13SPEAKERis not great, that's, you know.
27:16SPEAKER- Fair, okay.
27:17SPEAKERWell, okay, so we have one on the list.
27:19SPEAKER- Maybe, we'll see. - We'll see.
27:21SPEAKER- Like, I don't know if you actually read this out,
27:22SPEAKERbut at the top in underground rules, you wrote,
27:25SPEAKER"We are interested in both the hardware itself
27:27SPEAKERand the innovations, both in terms of dead ends
27:30SPEAKERand stuff that carry forward."
27:31SPEAKERSo like, you know, this wouldn't be a tech pod list
27:35SPEAKERif we weren't like especially interested or obsessive
27:39SPEAKERabout things like analog and Rumble and, you know,
27:43SPEAKERlike the tech, the mechanics that are inside there.
27:47SPEAKER- So let's talk about the N64 controller then.
27:50SPEAKER- Oh boy, I guess we were gonna have to get around to it.
27:52SPEAKER- 'Cause look, it's a forward-looking choice, right?
27:56SPEAKERNintendo, as they often do, innovated in terms of input.
28:00SPEAKERThey put a tiny little joystick on that controller.
28:03SPEAKERIt was in the wrong place and it was a bad joystick,
28:06SPEAKERbut it was there.
28:07SPEAKER- Yeah.
28:08SPEAKER- It was on a console that had four ports,
28:10SPEAKERso you could play with four people at the same time
28:12SPEAKERon the same machine without any weird $50 accessory.
28:16SPEAKERIt had an add-on pack that you could put a memory card
28:19SPEAKERor a Rumble pack in.
28:21SPEAKER- It's true. - That was cool.
28:22SPEAKER- Yes, sorry, give me two seconds here, right?
28:26SPEAKERI want to praise the innovative nature
28:28SPEAKERof that analog control,
28:29SPEAKERbut I wanna make sure that something weird didn't happen
28:31SPEAKERlike the dual analog on the PlayStation
28:33SPEAKERactually came out first.
28:34SPEAKER- No, I believe that the dual analog
28:35SPEAKERwas a response to the N64 controller.
28:38SPEAKER- So that's exactly my thoughts,
28:40SPEAKERor like that was my gut reaction when I thought about this.
28:42SPEAKER- It's good to fact check.
28:43SPEAKER- But then, for some reason, this struck me
28:46SPEAKERas one of those situations where like,
28:47SPEAKERoh, I might actually be embarrassed to find out
28:50SPEAKERthat the dual analog came out first.
28:52SPEAKERNo, okay, dual analog came out April, 1997,
28:56SPEAKERso that was like the better part.
28:58SPEAKER- Full year.
28:59SPEAKER- Better part of a year after the Nintendo 64.
29:02SPEAKER- Well, and it was after the Nintendo 64's US release,
29:04SPEAKERwhich was like January 20th,
29:06SPEAKERso it's a year and a half after the Nintendo N64.
29:08SPEAKER- Yeah, well more than a year.
29:10SPEAKER- Slow follow is what we call that.
29:12SPEAKER- Yes.
29:14SPEAKER- Honestly, in my mind, like that is the first example
29:16SPEAKERof Nintendo doing what Nintendo went on to do
29:20SPEAKERwith every damn piece of hardware from then on, right?
29:22SPEAKERWhich was like plucking some weird obscure technology
29:26SPEAKERthat was not really used in games
29:27SPEAKERand making their console based on it.
29:31SPEAKER- Well, I mean, there's a gamepad, there's the GameCube.
29:35SPEAKERThat was Cube.
29:36SPEAKER- Sure, I mean, it's shaped like a lunchbox.
29:39SPEAKERIt's got a handle on it.
29:40SPEAKER- It did have handles, I guess, with the obscure technology.
29:43SPEAKERThe handle was wildly innovative,
29:45SPEAKERunderappreciated in its time.
29:46SPEAKERBut I mean, like analogs say,
29:49SPEAKERokay, look, Super Nintendo controller,
29:50SPEAKERjust a better Nintendo controller.
29:53SPEAKERAs much as the Super Nintendo
29:54SPEAKERwas the best console ever made, it's just a better,
29:58SPEAKERhang on, I'm going somewhere with this.
29:59SPEAKERWe'll get back to this. - Okay, okay, go, go.
30:01SPEAKERDo your talk.
30:02SPEAKER- Super Nintendo controller might definitely rank here.
30:05SPEAKERBut like analog stick,
30:08SPEAKERlike nobody was doing analog at the time, right?
30:09SPEAKER- Yeah.
30:10SPEAKERWell, he's like, what are you gonna do with the analog stick?
30:11SPEAKERYou playing flight sims?
30:12SPEAKERAnd then like, you know, less than a decade later,
30:14SPEAKERthe DS came out and like,
30:15SPEAKERnobody was doing touchscreens at the time.
30:18SPEAKER- We're not talking about mobile stuff today, Brad.
30:19SPEAKER- No, no, no, I'm just saying as a general trend
30:21SPEAKERor design philosophy, like first it was analog and rumble.
30:26SPEAKERI'd have to check.
30:27SPEAKERDid they do rumble before the tool shock on the PlayStation?
30:30SPEAKERI'm not sure.
30:31SPEAKER- That's an important question.
30:32SPEAKER- I'll have to look.
30:33SPEAKERBut so, you know, first it was analog,
30:34SPEAKERthen it was touchscreens with the DS.
30:36SPEAKERThen it was motion with the Wii.
30:38SPEAKER- Yeah.
30:39SPEAKER- Then like the Switch kind of back and forth hybrid console,
30:42SPEAKERlike the, you know, but this is actually making me realize
30:46SPEAKERthat the analog stick on the N64 was the very first
30:49SPEAKERkind of prototypical example of them, you know,
30:53SPEAKERtaking some tech that nobody else was using
30:56SPEAKERand kind of building the whole console's identity around it.
30:58SPEAKER- Well, and it opened up, like without that analog stick,
31:02SPEAKER3D platformers wouldn't have worked, right?
31:03SPEAKERLike you think about all of,
31:05SPEAKERlike 3D platformers defined that entire generation
31:09SPEAKERfor a large amount and like racing games.
31:12SPEAKERThink of how much better a racing game,
31:14SPEAKERlike try and go back and play Mario Kart on the SNES now.
31:18SPEAKERAnd it's really hard to do because it's hard to control
31:21SPEAKERa racing game with a D-pad after you've,
31:24SPEAKERafter you've tasted the forbidden fruit
31:25SPEAKERof the analog stick.
31:27SPEAKER- You're not wrong.
31:27SPEAKERIt's still the best Mario Kart though.
31:30SPEAKER- Okay, now that, like the ranking of Mario Karts
31:33SPEAKERis next year, okay?
31:34SPEAKER- Outside this podcast per view.
31:37SPEAKER- You can't bait me like that.
31:38SPEAKERThat's not okay.
31:40SPEAKERSo I'm gonna put the N64 on here
31:42SPEAKERabove the DualSense for right now.
31:43SPEAKER- I mean, put it on there, I don't know,
31:45SPEAKERI'm torn between the fact that it was wildly innovative
31:48SPEAKERfor its time and also a terrible controller.
31:50SPEAKER- It was expandable.
31:52SPEAKERYou could add new functionality to it using an external bus.
31:55SPEAKER- Hang on.
31:57SPEAKERGod, I guess you would call that a bus, wouldn't you?
31:59SPEAKER- Yeah.
32:00SPEAKER- I mean, anything is a bus if you.
32:02SPEAKER- I wonder if there's like hardware stuff
32:03SPEAKERyou can plug into those controllers now.
32:05SPEAKERYou think you can get like a thing that'll root the,
32:08SPEAKERN64, dump your cartridges on there?
32:10SPEAKER- Oh, that's, hang on, this N64,
32:12SPEAKERhow would you describe that?
32:13SPEAKERController slot?
32:15SPEAKERController feature connector?
32:18SPEAKERI would love to know if there's weird stuff.
32:21SPEAKERWell, how about I head to Quora here
32:24SPEAKERand check out the answers to this question.
32:25SPEAKERWhat goes in the back of a N64 controller?
32:29SPEAKERDo you have any thoughts on Quora?
32:30SPEAKER- I'm up and down on it.
32:32SPEAKER- Yeah, same.
32:33SPEAKER- You know, one of the founders of Flickr made Quora.
32:36SPEAKER- Oh really, I did not know that.
32:37SPEAKER- She had arena fake, she was very smart.
32:38SPEAKERI think Quora's,
32:41SPEAKERQuora like Yahoo answers is occasionally useful
32:44SPEAKERbut somewhat fraught.
32:45SPEAKER- Yeah, yes, it's chock full of garbage,
32:47SPEAKERbut occasionally you'll find
32:48SPEAKERsome really interesting stuff on there.
32:50SPEAKERYeah, I found, you know, I will throw this out there.
32:52SPEAKERI found there is a guy who is a low level bureaucrat
32:56SPEAKERat the tail end of the Soviet Union
32:59SPEAKERwho answers a shitload of questions on there
33:01SPEAKERabout the Soviet Union.
33:02SPEAKER- Perfect.
33:03SPEAKER- And it's fascinating, like it's legitimately fascinating.
33:07SPEAKER- Oh boy.
33:07SPEAKER- It's like the one really interesting thing
33:09SPEAKERI found on Quora anyway.
33:11SPEAKER- Okay, so let's, I think we gotta move on.
33:14SPEAKERWe are, this is gonna be a three episode arc
33:18SPEAKERat this point. - This always happens
33:18SPEAKERwhen we rank.
33:19SPEAKER- Yeah.
33:21SPEAKER- Okay.
33:21SPEAKER- Where do you wanna pick one?
33:24SPEAKER- I'm trying to, okay, let's very quickly go through here.
33:27SPEAKERI think we can cut the switch, Pro Controller and Joy-Cons.
33:31SPEAKERThey both have reliability issues
33:32SPEAKERand there's really nothing that unique
33:34SPEAKERabout either one of them.
33:35SPEAKER- 100%, I couldn't agree.
33:37SPEAKERLike I've switched so many Joy-Con sticks at this point.
33:39SPEAKER- That alone, that alone is just hugely disqualifying
33:43SPEAKERand the D-pad is awful on that Pro Controller.
33:46SPEAKER- With the D-pads awful, like there is no D-pad
33:48SPEAKERon the Joy-Cons and so many of their games
33:50SPEAKERrequire D-pads to work right.
33:51SPEAKER- Yeah, you're right, you're right, yes.
33:53SPEAKERThat's the, fuck switch controls.
33:55SPEAKER- That's the easy cut.
33:56SPEAKER- I am going to.
33:58SPEAKER- Are you gonna exit out?
33:59SPEAKERYou're gonna strike through?
34:00SPEAKER- Employ my advanced Google Docs keyboard shortcut knowledge
34:03SPEAKERand strike it through.
34:05SPEAKER- See you in hell, Switch Pro Controller.
34:08SPEAKER- Okay.
34:09SPEAKER- Does have USB-C though, that was nice.
34:10SPEAKER- Yeah, I guess so.
34:12SPEAKER- Shout out to USB-C.
34:13SPEAKER- Sure.
34:15SPEAKER- Do we wanna talk about like conceptually
34:19SPEAKERwhether we like controllers with replaceable batteries,
34:23SPEAKERlike the Xbox controller or integrated batteries
34:27SPEAKERthat you have to plug in and charge?
34:28SPEAKER- I think, trying to think this through,
34:31SPEAKERmake sure I can commit to this.
34:32SPEAKERI think integrated battery that cannot be replaced
34:36SPEAKERis a significant negative.
34:40SPEAKER- I tend to agree.
34:41SPEAKER- I'm trying, I'm sitting here racking my brain
34:43SPEAKERtrying to think like, is there any real upside to?
34:46SPEAKER- They should be user replaceable.
34:47SPEAKER- I guess the upside is you don't have to keep buying
34:49SPEAKERbatteries or even keep up with rechargeables,
34:51SPEAKERlike it's just right there and you just plug it in, but.
34:54SPEAKER- And rechargeables are so easy though.
34:56SPEAKER- Yeah, right, I don't think that offsets the downside
35:00SPEAKERof like, for one thing, the battery life
35:04SPEAKERtends to be awful in those things.
35:06SPEAKER- I think the DualSense is better than the DualShock 4.
35:09SPEAKERThose first gen DualShocks were terrible.
35:11SPEAKER- I don't think that, I found the DualSense
35:14SPEAKERto be also pretty bad.
35:14SPEAKERYeah, I have actually, you know what?
35:15SPEAKERI have seen people say that turning down things
35:17SPEAKERlike the controller, I mean the trigger stuff
35:20SPEAKERmakes sense, which totally makes sense.
35:21SPEAKERSo I should try that.
35:23SPEAKER- Okay, I'm with you on this.
35:26SPEAKERI think replaceable, like easily replaceable batteries,
35:28SPEAKERmuch better than a built-in battery
35:31SPEAKERthat you have to like unscrew stuff to replace
35:33SPEAKERwhen it conks out after three years.
35:34SPEAKER- Yes, absolutely.
35:37SPEAKERAlso you have to like buy aftermarket batteries
35:39SPEAKERfrom eBay and hope they work 'cause it's not like
35:40SPEAKERSony's out there selling official replacements or anything.
35:43SPEAKER- Yep, and you have to, usually needed some sort
35:45SPEAKERof weird screwdriver too.
35:46SPEAKER- Yeah, how about this?
35:49SPEAKERI'm gonna say the entirety of the PlayStation controller
35:53SPEAKERlineup exists on the same continuum.
35:56SPEAKERAnd there's no sense including all of it or even really
35:59SPEAKERany of it except for one, like we just need to pick
36:01SPEAKERthe best one and go with it, right?
36:03SPEAKER- Look, I'll go a step further than that
36:05SPEAKERand say that everything, okay, so we should talk about
36:09SPEAKERlike the six axis added motion controls
36:12SPEAKERat the same time as the Wii, they were pretty good.
36:14SPEAKERI don't think they had a gyro.
36:15SPEAKER- The six axis is the worst Sony controller
36:17SPEAKERon this list by a mile.
36:19SPEAKER- I'm gonna say anything with convex triggers
36:23SPEAKERshould just be disqualified.
36:24SPEAKER- Oh my God, I hadn't even thought about the triggers
36:27SPEAKERbeing awful on that thing, but they are in fact awful.
36:29SPEAKER- Yeah, it didn't have analog trigger.
36:33SPEAKEROne of the consoles in that generation,
36:34SPEAKERwas it the Wii that didn't, the Wii Pro controller
36:37SPEAKERdidn't have--
36:38SPEAKER- Yes, the Wii's shoulder buttons and triggers
36:41SPEAKERare all digital. - They're all digital, yeah.
36:43SPEAKERSo we should mix that one too, fuck that.
36:46SPEAKER- Probably, there are kind of a lot of people out there
36:49SPEAKERthat really like the Wii U Pro controller
36:51SPEAKERas a PC controller though.
36:54SPEAKER- Hmm, that's an interesting choice.
36:56SPEAKER- But I guess, yeah, you're right.
36:57SPEAKERI think the Wii U Pro controller does not rate here.
37:00SPEAKERSix axis definitely does not because they use
37:02SPEAKERthe motion controls poorly by and large.
37:04SPEAKER- Yeah.
37:05SPEAKER- And it dropped rumble for business reasons,
37:07SPEAKERnot for any like good user-facing reasons.
37:09SPEAKER- 'Cause immersion had the patent
37:10SPEAKERand they didn't wanna pay immersion.
37:13SPEAKER- Yes, and that thing felt like incredibly cheap
37:16SPEAKERand flimsy and like too light because it emitted the rumble.
37:19SPEAKERLike it just felt like it was gonna break in half
37:21SPEAKERevery time you used it.
37:22SPEAKER- Well, and then midway through, like my PS3,
37:27SPEAKERmy PS, yeah, my PS3 is the Metal Gear one
37:31SPEAKERand it came with a DualShock 3.
37:33SPEAKER- Yes, yes. - Yeah, so.
37:34SPEAKER- Do you know actually, we'd probably have to dig
37:37SPEAKERinto some history to figure this out,
37:38SPEAKERbut they're the only ones that dropped rumble.
37:40SPEAKERI'm trying to figure out like everybody else
37:41SPEAKERwas still shipping force feedback in their controllers.
37:43SPEAKER- Everybody else ponied up.
37:44SPEAKER- Oh, oh, they literally just paid the fee?
37:46SPEAKER- You just paid the license of the patent, yeah.
37:48SPEAKER- Was it really that bad?
37:50SPEAKERWas Sony just cheaping out then?
37:53SPEAKER- Well, I think what happened,
37:55SPEAKERwhat may have happened is that Sony
37:57SPEAKERdidn't have the agreement.
37:58SPEAKERLike, I feel like immersion got bought by Logitech
38:00SPEAKERat some point in there.
38:02SPEAKER- Okay. - 'Cause remember,
38:02SPEAKERLogitech made those force feedback mice for a little bit.
38:04SPEAKER- Yes.
38:05SPEAKER- And, or rumble mice, whatever.
38:08SPEAKERThey weren't force feedback really.
38:09SPEAKER- Rumble mice.
38:11SPEAKER- But they, I don't know, I don't know what the deal,
38:14SPEAKERI don't know what the business arrangement was.
38:16SPEAKERAt some point, Sony was like,
38:17SPEAKER"We're not gonna pay your blood money anymore, immersion."
38:21SPEAKERAnd then they shipped a console with a controller
38:25SPEAKERthat everybody hated and had to make a new controller
38:28SPEAKERlike a year or two later.
38:29SPEAKER- Yeah, that just makes it even worse
38:30SPEAKERif they just, like a company the size of Sony
38:32SPEAKERjust didn't wanna pony up.
38:34SPEAKER- Yeah, so then everybody had a garbage controller.
38:37SPEAKERYou know, the one thing we should shout out
38:38SPEAKERfor that Xbox 360 PS3 Wii generation
38:41SPEAKERis that's when everything went wireless.
38:42SPEAKERLike, wireless is a big deal.
38:43SPEAKER- Right, so like when you said like the Waverd
38:46SPEAKERwas a big deal and I kind of minimized it like,
38:49SPEAKERin retrospect. - A little bias, I know, yeah.
38:51SPEAKER- Well, first of all, it's a GameCube controller,
38:52SPEAKERwhich makes it terrible by default.
38:54SPEAKER- But I'm not taking this bait yet.
38:56SPEAKERI'm saving it for later.
39:00SPEAKER- But yeah, like that's why it was a big deal,
39:03SPEAKERobviously, at the time.
39:04SPEAKERLike wireless controllers at the time,
39:05SPEAKERI remember Ryan like fucking
39:07SPEAKERevangelized the Waverd nonstop.
39:09SPEAKERLike he would never stop talking
39:11SPEAKERabout how good the Waverd was.
39:13SPEAKERThat was a man who did not like to be bound by cords.
39:15SPEAKER- No, nobody likes cords, it turns,
39:17SPEAKERbut everybody was skeptical.
39:19SPEAKERWhen Microsoft brought the Xbox 360 around,
39:21SPEAKERwe were like, "Hey, look man, remember wires?
39:24SPEAKER"You don't need them anymore."
39:26SPEAKEREverybody was like, "You're out of your mind.
39:27SPEAKER"I'm gonna buy a wireless controller
39:28SPEAKER"with my Xbox 360 pre-order."
39:30SPEAKERAnd I did, I have a wireless 360,
39:32SPEAKERa wired 360 controller still. - Oh, right, yes.
39:35SPEAKER- Because I bought one that has
39:36SPEAKERthe wire ground into the thing.
39:39SPEAKER- Yep, I've got one too.
39:40SPEAKER- Yeah.
39:42SPEAKER- Yes, that was a huge, huge innovation.
39:44SPEAKER- So, let's see.
39:45SPEAKER- I think, okay, I didn't spend any time
39:48SPEAKERwith the PS1 controller.
39:49SPEAKERI think it was probably bad just on assumption
39:52SPEAKERof what analog sticks were like in the '90s.
39:53SPEAKER- Oh, did you mean the pre-analog, or like the--
39:56SPEAKER- I had really, I've spent maybe 15 minutes
39:58SPEAKERplaying PS1 games in my entire life.
40:00SPEAKER- Oh, wow, what?
40:02SPEAKER- Yeah, I didn't play them until,
40:05SPEAKERmost of the stuff that I played that was a PS1,
40:06SPEAKERI played in back-compat mode on a PS2.
40:08SPEAKER- Geez, are you just gonna go ham
40:10SPEAKERwhen the Mr. PlayStation 4 comes out?
40:13SPEAKERThat's like a whole-- - I've been waiting
40:14SPEAKERfor so long to play some of those old games.
40:16SPEAKER- That is a lot of fucking,
40:17SPEAKERthey made so many PlayStation 1 games.
40:19SPEAKER- Yeah, it's like a SNES-sized library
40:22SPEAKERthat I've never touched, basically.
40:24SPEAKER- Granted, most of them will abrade your eyeballs
40:26SPEAKERwhen you look at them these days
40:27SPEAKERbecause of those god-awful, swimmy vertices on the polygons
40:30SPEAKERand lack of perspective correction on the texture maps.
40:32SPEAKERIt's really a mess, but--
40:34SPEAKER- When I was playing Inscription,
40:36SPEAKERwhen I'm playing Inscription and it's in that first act,
40:38SPEAKERI have no memory, I have no nostalgia
40:42SPEAKERfor that kind of graphics era.
40:43SPEAKER- See, Inscription is a good version of that, though.
40:46SPEAKERWhen you see the real, the genuine article, I don't know.
40:49SPEAKER- Look, some games just, mm, I don't know.
40:51SPEAKER- Some people find it charming, I do not.
40:54SPEAKER- It'll be a voyage of discovery for me.
40:56SPEAKER- I actually saw the guy who has picked up development
40:58SPEAKERon the PlayStation Core and the MiSTer.
41:00SPEAKERHe didn't start it, some other people did,
41:02SPEAKERand there was some drama, and they abandoned it,
41:03SPEAKERand then he came and picked it up
41:05SPEAKERand is just tearing through it.
41:07SPEAKERBut I saw him responding to some people on Twitter.
41:09SPEAKERHe is going to look into adding toggles to fix
41:12SPEAKERthe perspective correction on that stuff.
41:14SPEAKERHe said he's not sure there's room on the FPGA
41:17SPEAKERto pull it off, but he's gonna try.
41:19SPEAKER- That would be awesome.
41:20SPEAKER- Like, having the option would be fantastic.
41:21SPEAKERAnyway, the D-pad-only PlayStation 1 controller
41:27SPEAKERis just a SNES controller.
41:28SPEAKERLike, it's not even worth talking about.
41:29SPEAKER- Doesn't it have prongs, though?
41:30SPEAKER- Well, yes, I mean, not literally,
41:32SPEAKERbut in terms of button layout and configuration,
41:34SPEAKERit's exactly a SNES controller.
41:36SPEAKER- It only had one, they only had one set of triggers, right?
41:39SPEAKER- They didn't have bumpers and triggers on that.
41:40SPEAKER- Oh, wait, God, now you're making me second-guess myself.
41:46SPEAKEROh, no, I'm really gonna have to turn in my hat.
41:51SPEAKERI have to actually--
41:52SPEAKER- I thought it had bumpers and triggers, right?
41:53SPEAKER- God, you might be right.
41:55SPEAKERYou may very well be right.
41:57SPEAKER- You're welcome.
41:58SPEAKER- None of these photos, I mean,
41:58SPEAKERnone of them show the top of the controller.
42:01SPEAKER- Yes, it did.
42:02SPEAKER- You're right, it did have four shoulder buttons, not two.
42:06SPEAKER- That was the big innovation.
42:08SPEAKER- Ass.
42:09SPEAKER- Hey, gamers, we're making the controls
42:11SPEAKEReven more complicated so your mom
42:13SPEAKERreally can't play games with you anymore.
42:16SPEAKER- I mean, the whole PlayStation thing, like I said,
42:19SPEAKERit's all so iterative.
42:20SPEAKERIt's just each one is slightly better than the last one,
42:22SPEAKERbut they're all kind of the same controller.
42:24SPEAKER- Was the DualShock the first one that had two sticks?
42:27SPEAKER- No, the DualAnalog had two analog sticks.
42:30SPEAKER- Yeah, the DualAnalog had two sticks.
42:31SPEAKER- But no rumble, so it shipped with literally,
42:33SPEAKERthey made a controller called the DualAnalog
42:35SPEAKERthat just had two sticks on it.
42:36SPEAKER- And then the DualShock was a PS2 controller?
42:39SPEAKER- No, no, no, the DualShock
42:39SPEAKERwas also a PlayStation 1 controller
42:41SPEAKERthat was just the DualAnalog with force feedback.
42:44SPEAKER- They did three controllers for the PlayStation 1?
42:46SPEAKER- They sure did.
42:48SPEAKER- Did the new controllers work with all the old games
42:50SPEAKERor did you have to keep all the controllers around?
42:52SPEAKER- No, no, no, absolutely.
42:54SPEAKERThe new controllers were a super set of the functionality,
42:56SPEAKERso yeah, they absolutely.
42:57SPEAKERIn fact, you could toggle off the analog sticks
42:59SPEAKERon the later add-on analog controllers.
43:03SPEAKERI forget why.
43:04SPEAKERThey have a toggle button on the front
43:05SPEAKERthat lets you turn off the analog.
43:06SPEAKERI forget what the point of that was.
43:09SPEAKER- I feel like the two analog sticks is a big deal.
43:11SPEAKER- It is.
43:13SPEAKER- Yeah, you know, actually, when you put it that way,
43:15SPEAKERlike that really did kind of define what modern analog,
43:19SPEAKERlike as much as the N64 was the thing
43:21SPEAKERthat introduced analog controls,
43:23SPEAKERhaving two sticks is what really made it usable and practical
43:26SPEAKERand kind of defined what controllers
43:28SPEAKERwould do with it from then on.
43:29SPEAKER- So then do we put the dual analog on here?
43:31SPEAKER- Oh, man.
43:33SPEAKER- That seems like a bad controller.
43:34SPEAKER- I can't get behind that just because, yeah,
43:36SPEAKERit's like not great from a functionality standpoint.
43:39SPEAKER- Well, we've cut a lot of stuff.
43:40SPEAKERWe only have two things on the list right now.
43:41SPEAKERRight now, we have the N64 controller as number one
43:44SPEAKERand the PS5's DualSense as number two.
43:46SPEAKER- Yeah, and I have reservations about both of those.
43:48SPEAKER- And we have 10 slots.
43:50SPEAKER- Yeah.
43:51SPEAKER- Maybe we should just do top.
43:52SPEAKERWell, we can figure that one again.
43:53SPEAKER- I was attempting to cut all of the PlayStation stuff
43:55SPEAKERbesides the DualSense, I think, but.
43:58SPEAKER- I mean, I actually like the DualShock 4 too.
44:00SPEAKERI think the DualShock 4 added touch
44:02SPEAKERin a way that was meaningful.
44:03SPEAKER- Well.
44:06SPEAKER- It took a long time for people,
44:08SPEAKERlike all good weird additions to the space,
44:13SPEAKERit took developers a while to figure out what to do with it.
44:16SPEAKERBut the modern implementation of like,
44:17SPEAKERhey, this is two virtual buttons where you have
44:20SPEAKERan extra start and select button, basically.
44:22SPEAKER- So I am with you from the tech perspective.
44:24SPEAKERIt was kind of a genius idea to put that in there,
44:27SPEAKERbut I don't think developers ever really got there.
44:30SPEAKER- I mean, but I think most of them
44:32SPEAKERcould have done so much more with that thing.
44:34SPEAKER- Yeah, and it was unfortunate
44:35SPEAKERbecause it was actually a good touch,
44:37SPEAKERlike unlike the DS touch screen and the Wii U touch screens
44:40SPEAKERwere both shitty resistive screens.
44:42SPEAKERLike it was a pretty good touch,
44:43SPEAKERlike it was pretty, pretty nimble.
44:45SPEAKER- I think it's multi-touch, right?
44:47SPEAKER- Yeah, you can pinch.
44:49SPEAKER- In my mind, I'm trying to think if there's anything else,
44:51SPEAKERlike the Witcher 3 on the PS4 is the gold standard
44:53SPEAKERfor that thing because they use gestures.
44:57SPEAKERThey use gestures as UI shortcuts.
44:59SPEAKER- A lot of the UBs,
45:00SPEAKERI feel like some of the UB stuff does that too.
45:03SPEAKER- Okay.
45:03SPEAKER- Like I played one of the Assassin's Creed's
45:06SPEAKERwith a DualShock 4 and like you swipe right to open it,
45:08SPEAKERbut like it gives you quick, it gives you quick hits.
45:11SPEAKERI feel like I could be wrong.
45:12SPEAKERI definitely played a UB game that gave you quick links
45:15SPEAKERlike into the menus.
45:17SPEAKERSo you could go like one way would go to map,
45:18SPEAKERone way would go to inventory,
45:19SPEAKERone way would go to skill trees.
45:21SPEAKER- That's exactly what Witcher 3 does
45:22SPEAKERis like swipe up to go to map,
45:23SPEAKERswipe right to go to spells, inventory, whatever.
45:26SPEAKER- Yeah.
45:27SPEAKER- There's so many games just use that touch pad
45:29SPEAKERas a glorified single on off button.
45:32SPEAKER- Like look.
45:32SPEAKER- That's such a bummer.
45:33SPEAKER- I'm fine with that.
45:36SPEAKERThe better implementation is give me two button,
45:38SPEAKERlike put the two most common things in that slot.
45:41SPEAKER- Yeah, if you treat it as like you said,
45:43SPEAKERlike a left, right button, that's not,
45:45SPEAKERthat's the minimum they should be doing, but I'm with you.
45:48SPEAKERI really, I actually really like the shape
45:50SPEAKERof the DualShock 4 as well.
45:51SPEAKER- It is the most comfortable,
45:53SPEAKERlike it was my favorite controller
45:54SPEAKERof that generation, battery,
45:56SPEAKERespecially the V2 one with the stripe on the pad.
45:59SPEAKER- Yes.
46:00SPEAKER- Once they got the battery,
46:00SPEAKERlike that helped the battery life a lot.
46:02SPEAKER- Yeah.
46:03SPEAKER- And like, I've worn two of those out.
46:04SPEAKERI use them so much.
46:05SPEAKER- I'm sitting here.
46:06SPEAKERThe triggers are kind of weak on this thing.
46:08SPEAKERLike the triggers remain a little bit flimsy
46:10SPEAKERon a DualShock 4.
46:12SPEAKER- Yeah, but Brad, look at this one.
46:13SPEAKERIt's translucent.
46:14SPEAKER- Ah, oh wait, don't get me started.
46:17SPEAKER- I mean, a good translucent controller.
46:20SPEAKERLike this is maybe the only low, low stick controller
46:23SPEAKERI've ever really liked.
46:24SPEAKERI mean, I like the DualSense a lot,
46:26SPEAKERbut like it feels real good in the head.
46:28SPEAKERLike it's got a nice hand feel.
46:29SPEAKER- What do you mean by low stick?
46:30SPEAKERLike literally just the height?
46:32SPEAKER- No, no, no, no.
46:33SPEAKERSo like the Xbox is a high, low, right?
46:34SPEAKERSo the right side stick is high.
46:36SPEAKERThe left stick is high and the right stick is low.
46:38SPEAKER- Wait, are you about to completely blow my mind?
46:43SPEAKERHave I never noticed this before?
46:44SPEAKER- No, look, the PlayStation controller has the placement.
46:47SPEAKER- The placement, yeah.
46:48SPEAKER- I'm sorry, I thought you meant literally
46:49SPEAKERthe height of the sticks.
46:51SPEAKER- Oh yeah, the Xbox sticks are always higher too.
46:53SPEAKER- Yeah, so you're right about that.
46:54SPEAKERI thought you were saying that one of the sticks
46:56SPEAKERwas higher than the other on the Xbox.
46:58SPEAKER- No, no, well, I mean, you could do that
46:59SPEAKERwithout the elite controller,
47:00SPEAKERwhich I wanna talk about too, I guess.
47:02SPEAKERI don't know.
47:03SPEAKERI don't know, I like the DualShock 4.
47:07SPEAKERI think it's a good controller.
47:08SPEAKER- I do too.
47:09SPEAKERI could, you know what?
47:10SPEAKERI could maybe see the DualShock 4 and the DualSense ranking,
47:14SPEAKERbut I'm gonna say everything before that.
47:19SPEAKER- I'm okay, I'm fine cutting.
47:20SPEAKERI'm fine cutting the PlayStation 1 stuff
47:22SPEAKER'cause I just don't have any experience with it.
47:23SPEAKER- Like whenever you're ranking stuff
47:25SPEAKERthat is across such a long period of history,
47:27SPEAKERyou have to balance like, okay,
47:30SPEAKERhow important was this historically
47:32SPEAKERversus how good is it in a modern context, right?
47:34SPEAKER- Yeah.
47:35SPEAKER- Or even how good was it at the time?
47:37SPEAKERAgain, I think it's like wildly innovative
47:40SPEAKERthat the N64 had the analog stick.
47:41SPEAKERAlso, I think it's a terrible controller.
47:43SPEAKER- It is a bad controller.
47:45SPEAKERSo look, I think I can make an argument
47:48SPEAKERthat probably the dual analog sticks
47:51SPEAKERdidn't actually get good until the GameCube,
47:55SPEAKERprobably the best controller of all time.
47:57SPEAKER- Oh God, what are you...
47:58SPEAKERWait, that doesn't even count as dual analog.
48:01SPEAKERThe C-Stick is not a stick.
48:04SPEAKER- It's a stick?
48:05SPEAKER- I don't care what they call it.
48:06SPEAKER- It's a little tiny joystick.
48:07SPEAKERIt's all you need to steer your camera.
48:09SPEAKER- That does not count as a joystick.
48:10SPEAKER- The C is for camera.
48:11SPEAKER- It's like a thumb nub.
48:14SPEAKER- It's like, anyway.
48:14SPEAKER- It's literally the tracking device
48:16SPEAKERfrom like a mid 2000s Lenovo laptop.
48:19SPEAKERThat's what that thing is.
48:22SPEAKER(laughs)
48:25SPEAKER- Okay.
48:26SPEAKER- They put a tracking nub on a controller
48:29SPEAKERand called it an analog stick.
48:30SPEAKER- If you would like to see a nub,
48:31SPEAKERI can get out my new DS.
48:34SPEAKERIs it the new DS or was it the new 3DS
48:36SPEAKERthat had the tracking nub?
48:37SPEAKER- The new 3DS had the little tracking disc nub thing.
48:43SPEAKER- Okay, if you think having...
48:45SPEAKERIf you think that...
48:47SPEAKERThe question is, is the first dual analog or...
48:51SPEAKERI mean, I feel like the N64 is on it.
48:54SPEAKERI think the N64 probably had the first rumble.
48:56SPEAKERI kind of don't care about rumble
48:57SPEAKERin the great scheme of things, I think.
48:59SPEAKERLike, it's good to have.
49:00SPEAKERIt's nice.
49:02SPEAKER- I think you're right.
49:03SPEAKERLike, it's one of those things.
49:05SPEAKERI mean, it's like with the six axis,
49:06SPEAKERit's one of those things that I miss it when it's not there,
49:08SPEAKERbut I don't really notice it when it is.
49:10SPEAKER- Yeah, look, I never...
49:14SPEAKERUsually my only interaction with six axis in a game
49:17SPEAKERwas to turn it off.
49:19SPEAKER- Sure.
49:20SPEAKER- If that was possible.
49:21SPEAKER- Yeah.
49:22SPEAKER- And if it wasn't possible,
49:22SPEAKERit was probably to not play that game.
49:24SPEAKER- Like, good force feedback is a nice add on.
49:27SPEAKER- Yeah.
49:28SPEAKER- Again, it's kind of a bummer when it's not there,
49:30SPEAKERbut for the most part, it's pretty easy to ignore,
49:34SPEAKERexcept for until you get into the dual sense
49:36SPEAKERwhere the haptics are good enough that it's like,
49:38SPEAKERoh, this is noticeable.
49:40SPEAKERI'm actually paying attention to this as it happens.
49:44SPEAKER- Well, and I think I would make an argument
49:46SPEAKERthat the rumble stuff probably wasn't good enough
49:49SPEAKERto be worth mentioning until we got to the point
49:51SPEAKERin probably the 360 and PS2 generation
49:54SPEAKERwhere they had different sized weights on the motors
49:57SPEAKERand you had more granularity in both intensity
50:00SPEAKERand the patterns.
50:03SPEAKER- Yes, I'm with you on that.
50:05SPEAKERSo with that said, I would say we strike
50:09SPEAKERall of the PlayStation 1 controllers from this.
50:11SPEAKER- Done.
50:13SPEAKERI think you can get rid of PS2 too.
50:14SPEAKER- Like the dual analog, again,
50:16SPEAKERputting two sticks on there was a big deal
50:18SPEAKERfor what came later, but the controller itself,
50:19SPEAKERkind of whatever.
50:21SPEAKERSorry, what were you saying?
50:22SPEAKERPS2?
50:23SPEAKER- Well, PS2 introduced analog face buttons,
50:25SPEAKERbut I don't think I ever played anything that used them.
50:27SPEAKER- That is not a vote in its favor.
50:30SPEAKER'Cause like those things are kind of like a joke
50:33SPEAKERof the controller world, I think.
50:35SPEAKER- I mean--
50:36SPEAKER- Nobody ever used them for anything.
50:37SPEAKER- It was really important to have them for three mini games
50:41SPEAKERin Dead or Alive, Extreme Beach Volleyball,
50:43SPEAKERclearly the defining game of the generation.
50:47SPEAKERI think you can get rid of the PS2 too.
50:48SPEAKER- I mean, if you Google like PS2 pressure sensitive buttons,
50:50SPEAKERlike you come up with things like 10 older PlayStation games
50:53SPEAKERthat actually use the pressure sensitive buttons,
50:55SPEAKERlike it's literally that.
50:57SPEAKER- Where do you have any good?
50:58SPEAKERWhat are the 10 games?
50:59SPEAKER- The bouncer.
51:01SPEAKER- Of course.
51:02SPEAKER- Other Grand Theft Auto games did apparently,
51:04SPEAKERwhich I didn't know.
51:05SPEAKERWhat do they do with it?
51:06SPEAKER- Probably you could run faster if you tapped harder.
51:08SPEAKER- When driving.
51:09SPEAKER- Oh, that makes sense.
51:10SPEAKER- You could actually vary your speed by how--
51:13SPEAKER- Yeah, that was, I'm sure that worked great.
51:15SPEAKER- Okami, Gran Turismo, Silent Hill.
51:18SPEAKERI was gonna say MGS2, I thought did, and it does in fact.
51:22SPEAKER- Wow, Okami was a PS2 game.
51:24SPEAKERHoly cow, they've re-released that game a lot
51:26SPEAKERover the years.
51:26SPEAKER- That game has come out a lot.
51:27SPEAKER- That's that impressionistic kind of painterly art style.
51:31SPEAKERReally get some mileage out of that over time, smart game.
51:36SPEAKERYeah, the PS2 controller especially does not belong here.
51:39SPEAKER- Put it in the trash.
51:41SPEAKER- Okay.
51:42SPEAKER- Let's talk about the Dreamcast for a minute.
51:44SPEAKER- Poor Dreamcast.
51:45SPEAKER- Like, it's really one of the all time worst controllers.
51:49SPEAKER- I think so, I don't necessarily disagree.
51:52SPEAKER- It looks like it should be less comfortable
51:54SPEAKERthan it is in practice.
51:56SPEAKER- Why did the cord come out of the bottom?
51:58SPEAKERCan you think of a design or technical reason
52:01SPEAKERfor the cords to have to come out of the bottom?
52:03SPEAKER- I mean, maybe they thought people were gonna use it
52:04SPEAKERin the southern hemisphere and they'd all be upside down.
52:07SPEAKER- It's entirely possible.
52:09SPEAKER- Like, it just--
52:10SPEAKER- People in Australia were going to flush that thing
52:12SPEAKERdown the toilet?
52:12SPEAKER- Yeah.
52:14SPEAKER- And have it go the other way?
52:15SPEAKER- It did have the VMU slot, it had two slots.
52:18SPEAKER- The VMU slots were at the top of whatever PCB
52:20SPEAKERwas in there, so maybe they kind of had to do it that way.
52:23SPEAKER- It could have been the, I remember the force feedback
52:28SPEAKERstuff in that, the rumble was pretty good in that,
52:30SPEAKERbut it wasn't as good as the things that came later.
52:33SPEAKER- Yeah, the VMU was the visual memory unit, I believe,
52:39SPEAKERwas what that stood for.
52:40SPEAKER- I never used it for any of the games, like it didn't--
52:43SPEAKER- I never used it.
52:43SPEAKER- None of the games I played used it, yeah.
52:44SPEAKER- I never used it beyond my Chao Garden in Sonic Adventure.
52:47SPEAKERI mean, like, you know, calling plays in football games
52:50SPEAKERwas like the kind of stereotypical, like, oh, your friends
52:52SPEAKERwon't be able to see what play you're about to run.
52:54SPEAKER- Yeah.
52:55SPEAKER- But I don't know if anybody ever actually used it
52:56SPEAKERfor that stuff, also.
52:58SPEAKER- Yeah, it was just easier to obscure your choice
53:00SPEAKERby like pushing six buttons instead of one.
53:02SPEAKER- Like, it was a kind of an interesting idea
53:05SPEAKERthat super did not pan out.
53:06SPEAKERThe one thing I will give the Dreamcast controller
53:08SPEAKERis that somehow it ended up defining
53:10SPEAKERthe standard face button lettering arrangement.
53:13SPEAKER- Oh, it's responsible for taking that away from Nintendo?
53:17SPEAKER- Yes, Nintendo's was the opposite.
53:19SPEAKERB, A, and X, Y were reversed, or, you know.
53:22SPEAKER- Wow.
53:23SPEAKER- They were how Nintendo had them,
53:24SPEAKERand then the Dreamcast came along and flipped them.
53:26SPEAKERAnd then the Xbox adopted the Dreamcast layout,
53:28SPEAKERand now that's kind of the standard.
53:30SPEAKER- The Genesis was ABC left to right, right?
53:34SPEAKER- I wanna say the original Genesis three button
53:37SPEAKERwas one, two, three?
53:39SPEAKER- Oh, and I have a--
53:40SPEAKER- I think they were numbered.
53:41SPEAKER- I have one of those.
53:43SPEAKER- Which, like, I would have a whole conversation
53:45SPEAKERabout the lettering and numbering on controller buttons.
53:49SPEAKER- I have one of those eight-bit Genesis pads here somewhere.
53:52SPEAKERI don't know.
53:53SPEAKERIt might be in the living room.
53:54SPEAKER- Am I out of my mind?
53:56SPEAKER- Maybe.
53:57SPEAKER- I could've sworn those buttons were numbered,
54:00SPEAKERbut I'm not seeing.
54:01SPEAKEROh, I think they were ABC, actually.
54:03SPEAKER- Oh, no, you're right.
54:04SPEAKERThe six pad was ABC, XYZ,
54:07SPEAKERand the original pad was one, two, three, I bet.
54:11SPEAKER- The ones I'm finding photos of say ABC.
54:12SPEAKER- From the three button pad.
54:13SPEAKER- Okay.
54:15SPEAKER- But, oh, I'm sorry, I'm thinking about the turbo graphics
54:17SPEAKERwhere they were button one and two.
54:18SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:19SPEAKER- Also, we can just remove the turbo graphics pad.
54:21SPEAKER- Yeah, you can get rid of the turbo graphics.
54:22SPEAKERThat is an awful controller.
54:23SPEAKER- Like, it's not great.
54:25SPEAKERAlso, the fact that that console shipped
54:27SPEAKERwith one controller port and you had to buy an add-on
54:30SPEAKERto plug in more than one is just, like, criminal.
54:32SPEAKER- It's an audio podcast, so you can't see me
54:33SPEAKERshooting the bird at the turbo graphics, but I am.
54:36SPEAKER- How did people not go to jail over that?
54:39SPEAKER- You go to turbo graphics, right?
54:40SPEAKER- Yeah, like, I bought mine when it was
54:43SPEAKERon clearance after it had basically died.
54:45SPEAKERI bought a lot of consoles that way back then.
54:46SPEAKERI think I got it and some games for, like, 50 bucks.
54:50SPEAKER- I think Sega Master System gets a cut
54:52SPEAKER'cause it's just a bad knockoff of the NES game pad.
54:55SPEAKER- Yes, exactly.
54:56SPEAKER- I got a hot take here.
54:57SPEAKERI think the NES game pad is bad, too.
55:00SPEAKER- I don't think it's amazing.
55:02SPEAKER- I think it has a pretty good D-pad,
55:03SPEAKERbut the ergonomics are so noteworthy spectacularly bad
55:06SPEAKERwith the square corners.
55:08SPEAKERThose hard, sharp corners, when I go back to it these days,
55:11SPEAKERare, like, kind of difficult to figure out
55:14SPEAKERhow they shipped it that way.
55:16SPEAKER- I remember seeing those and thinking,
55:18SPEAKERand, like, when they re-released all the NES games
55:20SPEAKERand resold the controllers, it's like,
55:23SPEAKERwhy is anybody buying, don't buy these,
55:24SPEAKERbuy something good instead.
55:26SPEAKERBuy something that's not gonna hurt you.
55:27SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, the Max, to its credit,
55:30SPEAKERthe Max was, like, kind of nice and ergonomically rounded.
55:32SPEAKER- It had prongs.
55:34SPEAKER- Did it?
55:35SPEAKEROh, you're right, it did, yeah.
55:36SPEAKER- Little ones, baby prongs.
55:38SPEAKERWhat was the pad under the circle thing?
55:40SPEAKERWas it, like, a D-pad under there?
55:42SPEAKERWas it an analog input?
55:43SPEAKER- That thing made no sense, dude.
55:44SPEAKERTo this day, I owned a Max, and I can't tell you
55:47SPEAKERwhat it was supposed to be.
55:50SPEAKERLike, the black ring around the red,
55:52SPEAKERkind of slidey disk thing, you could depress that,
55:55SPEAKERand it was a D-pad.
55:56SPEAKERLike, it detected the cardinal directions,
55:59SPEAKERand that's all I ever did with it was just press the ring
56:01SPEAKERto make it act like a D-pad.
56:03SPEAKER- Oh, man, I had no idea.
56:04SPEAKER- Like, I don't even know what the point of the disk
56:06SPEAKEReven was.
56:08SPEAKER- What if the disk was the first analog controller,
56:11SPEAKERand we just didn't know?
56:12SPEAKER- It really did not make a lot of sense.
56:13SPEAKERIt did have turbo, but, you know, so did the advantage.
56:16SPEAKER- I had the advantage.
56:17SPEAKER- Yeah, like I said, I knew multiple people that did,
56:20SPEAKERand I was very jealous.
56:22SPEAKER- It was awesome for, like, top-down, like, 1942
56:27SPEAKERand stuff like that, like, top-down shmups kind of situations
56:30SPEAKER'cause you had the turbo buttons.
56:33SPEAKERWasn't great for everything else.
56:34SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know if I can see any of the NES controllers
56:37SPEAKERmaking it on here.
56:38SPEAKER- Cut 'em.
56:39SPEAKER- Honestly.
56:40SPEAKER- Send 'em away.
56:40SPEAKER- I, you know, I mean, again, it's one of those things
56:44SPEAKERwhere, like, there is historical value there
56:45SPEAKERin terms of what got adopted and used later.
56:49SPEAKER- I mean, I guess the NES did bring the good D-pad.
56:51SPEAKERLike, that became the de facto for a long time.
56:54SPEAKER- It did, but if we're gonna recognize a Nintendo controller
56:56SPEAKERof that era, it's absolutely the Super Nintendo one.
56:58SPEAKER- I tend to agree.
56:59SPEAKER- Like, a thousand percent.
57:01SPEAKERIn fact, I'm just gonna say we should put
57:02SPEAKERthe Super Nintendo controller on this list.
57:04SPEAKER- Done and done.
57:05SPEAKEROkay, so, now here's the, do we wanna just put on the list
57:08SPEAKERand then rate 'em later or?
57:09SPEAKER- Oh, yeah, let's just slap 'em on there.
57:11SPEAKER- Okay.
57:11SPEAKER- Just, we have to resist the temptation of, like,
57:13SPEAKERending up with a list of 10 at the end
57:15SPEAKERand then having somebody just go, like,
57:16SPEAKERthis is the list, right?
57:17SPEAKER- This looks pretty good.
57:18SPEAKER- Like, hey, let's just run with it the way it is.
57:20SPEAKER- There's no Alex Navarro's here.
57:22SPEAKER- No.
57:23SPEAKER- Shots fired.
57:26SPEAKER- Hmm, all right.
57:27SPEAKERI think we can strike the Dreamcast.
57:29SPEAKER- We definitely can.
57:30SPEAKER- Yeah, Dreamcast is bad.
57:32SPEAKERIt's a bad controller. - It's a bad controller.
57:32SPEAKER- It's like a special place in my heart for the Dreamcast,
57:36SPEAKERbut no.
57:37SPEAKER- I think the Xbox 360 pad is on this list.
57:39SPEAKER- Oh.
57:40SPEAKER- Even with the bad D-pad.
57:41SPEAKER- Dude, I, you're probably right.
57:45SPEAKER- I'm gonna tell you why it is.
57:46SPEAKER- Okay.
57:47SPEAKER- It's not because of anything to do with the Xbox 360.
57:49SPEAKER- Try it.
57:50SPEAKER- It's because it became the de facto gamepad for Windows,
57:53SPEAKERfor PC games.
57:54SPEAKER- Sure, yeah, you know, okay.
57:57SPEAKERThis is maybe expanding the scope
57:59SPEAKERof this list a little bit,
58:01SPEAKERbut if you're gonna roll in the like X input support
58:03SPEAKERin Windows, the fact that it just kind of plugged in
58:06SPEAKERand worked for everything on a PC.
58:08SPEAKER- Yep.
58:08SPEAKER- Then I 100% get behind this.
58:09SPEAKER- Microsoft swung their DirectX,
58:11SPEAKERtheir DirectX wait around and said,
58:13SPEAKER"Hey, you can use a gamepad on the PC
58:15SPEAKERand you didn't have to bind anything.
58:17SPEAKERIt just worked."
58:18SPEAKERLike it's so easy for developers to implement
58:20SPEAKERfor the last 15 years.
58:22SPEAKERWe don't think about it anymore.
58:23SPEAKER- I forgot actually what a big deal that was back,
58:25SPEAKERsay, what was that a year or two after the 360 came out?
58:28SPEAKERProbably when that support really started rolling out.
58:30SPEAKER- So Microsoft started pitching it to press in like 2003
58:35SPEAKERbefore the Xbox 360 was even out.
58:37SPEAKER- Really?
58:38SPEAKER- Yeah.
58:39SPEAKER- They were talking to you?
58:40SPEAKER- They were talking, they talked,
58:42SPEAKERI had a meeting before the 360,
58:44SPEAKERmaybe it was announced about bringing
58:48SPEAKERa unified controller standard to PC.
58:50SPEAKERI was like, "Good luck with that, man."
58:51SPEAKERAnd then they did it.
58:52SPEAKER- Wow.
58:54SPEAKERWere they pitching it as like,
58:55SPEAKERthis will be part of our upcoming console
58:57SPEAKERor were they saying like-
58:57SPEAKER- No, they did not, nope.
58:59SPEAKER- Really?
58:59SPEAKER- They were going to be part of DirectX going forward
59:01SPEAKERand make it part of this whole initiative.
59:03SPEAKERThey didn't say games for Windows then,
59:05SPEAKER'cause that's also, that came around the same time.
59:07SPEAKER- Dude, I mean, yeah, man,
59:08SPEAKERI remember what a massive deal that was.
59:10SPEAKERThey're like, "Oh my God, I can take this console controller
59:13SPEAKERthat I already own and just plug it into my PC
59:15SPEAKERand like games just work with it, like what?"
59:17SPEAKER- Well, and then in a real stroke of genius for 40 bucks,
59:20SPEAKERthey would sell you a dongle you could plug into the PC
59:22SPEAKERand your wireless controller would just walk
59:24SPEAKERfrom one room into the other.
59:26SPEAKERIt was very good.
59:27SPEAKER- I bought that thing as fast as I could.
59:30SPEAKER- Okay, you're right.
59:31SPEAKERI mean, I despise the D-pad on the Xbox 360.
59:34SPEAKER- Oh, it's an all time worst.
59:36SPEAKERIt's awful.
59:37SPEAKER- But I was even gonna say like,
59:41SPEAKERA, in some ways the 360 has kind of defined
59:43SPEAKERthe modern controller.
59:45SPEAKER- I think so, yeah.
59:46SPEAKER- B, it being the first mass market
59:48SPEAKERpacked in wireless controller, like packed in,
59:49SPEAKERI guess that's actually the real distinction there
59:52SPEAKERis the fact that it was the literal included controller
59:55SPEAKERwas a wireless controller, like that alone is a huge deal.
59:58SPEAKER- Oh, right, 'cause it was a year before the PS3.
1:00:00SPEAKERI forgot they released the 360 so early.
1:00:02SPEAKER- We, yeah, remember they like,
1:00:03SPEAKERthey killed the original Xbox,
1:00:04SPEAKERlike kind of took the original Xbox out behind the barn.
1:00:08SPEAKER- Yeah, well, it was losing a lot of money too.
1:00:10SPEAKERThat's what happens to things that lose money.
1:00:11SPEAKER- Yes, I mean, I'm not saying it was doing great,
1:00:13SPEAKERbut also like, you know, that stuff is well-documented.
1:00:16SPEAKERI've never read Dean Takahashi's book.
1:00:17SPEAKERI've always meant to about that, but you know,
1:00:20SPEAKERit's well-documented how like obsessed they were
1:00:23SPEAKERwith beating Sony to market.
1:00:26SPEAKERBut so, yeah, that thing came out a year before the Wii
1:00:28SPEAKERand the PS3 and it was the first like packed in
1:00:30SPEAKERwireless controller and that is a huge deal.
1:00:33SPEAKER- It also had bumpers, bumpers were important too.
1:00:35SPEAKER- Sure.
1:00:37SPEAKER- Like the bumpers, moving the black and white button
1:00:39SPEAKERfrom the face buttons to making it bumpers
1:00:41SPEAKERmeans that those buttons were suddenly accessible to people.
1:00:44SPEAKER- Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.
1:00:46SPEAKERWhereas, I mean, you know, the Sony had kind of had
1:00:48SPEAKERthat two by two shoulder configuration already.
1:00:51SPEAKER- Yeah, R1 and R2, I still don't know which one's which.
1:00:53SPEAKERI've been playing PlayStation games for 10 years
1:00:55SPEAKERand I still can't remember.
1:00:56SPEAKER- You think that's bad.
1:00:57SPEAKERTell me which one is Z and which one is ZR.
1:01:00SPEAKER- ZR.
1:01:02SPEAKER- I mean, I know the answer, but it's like,
1:01:04SPEAKERif you think R1 or R2.
1:01:04SPEAKER- ZR is the top one, isn't it?
1:01:06SPEAKER- No, I think it's the bottom one.
1:01:07SPEAKER- God damn it.
1:01:08SPEAKEROkay, so Xbox 360 is on the list.
1:01:11SPEAKER- Yeah, I will say the later model
1:01:13SPEAKERwith the transforming D-pad was significantly better.
1:01:15SPEAKER- I have one of those.
1:01:16SPEAKERI don't think it was better, dude.
1:01:18SPEAKER- I do.
1:01:18SPEAKER- I think it was super new.
1:01:20SPEAKER- I think they put lipstick on a pig with that.
1:01:22SPEAKER- I mean, it was a nice stop gap.
1:01:24SPEAKERIt was better than nothing.
1:01:26SPEAKER- Yeah, I think that makes the list.
1:01:29SPEAKER- I think we can bundle the Xbox series controller
1:01:31SPEAKERand the Xbox one controller into one category.
1:01:34SPEAKER- They are really close.
1:01:35SPEAKERI mean, I'm trying to think like the Xbox one,
1:01:38SPEAKERlike you've got that here
1:01:39SPEAKERthat's got added rumble in the triggers.
1:01:41SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't think that was a real killer feature.
1:01:44SPEAKER- No, it was neat.
1:01:45SPEAKERI mean, it's a cool little add on,
1:01:47SPEAKERbut like that thing was very much
1:01:49SPEAKERjust an improved 360 controller for the most part.
1:01:52SPEAKER- They fixed the D-pad.
1:01:54SPEAKER- Yes, the D-pad was fantastic.
1:01:55SPEAKERIn fact, I like the D-pad better, I think,
1:01:58SPEAKERon the Xbox one than I do on the series.
1:02:01SPEAKER- Oh, absolutely.
1:02:02SPEAKERThe series has that weird like hex circle thing.
1:02:05SPEAKER- They went back to the disc with the diagonal,
1:02:06SPEAKERwhich I don't love, and also the click.
1:02:08SPEAKERI'm literally clicking it into my microphone right now.
1:02:10SPEAKERLike it's too loud, it's too clicky.
1:02:12SPEAKER- It is really loud.
1:02:15SPEAKERI like the, yeah, I like just the D-pad on the face.
1:02:20SPEAKERIt's not my favorite.
1:02:21SPEAKERI like, in that era, I like the,
1:02:22SPEAKERI think I liked the DualShock D-pad better.
1:02:26SPEAKER- I slightly, you know what I don't love about either way?
1:02:30SPEAKERThis is, this might be a deal breaker actually.
1:02:33SPEAKERThe way they changed the shape of the bumpers
1:02:38SPEAKERon the Xbox one and then carry that over
1:02:41SPEAKERwhere you can't really press them
1:02:43SPEAKERwith your fingertips anymore.
1:02:44SPEAKERYou kind of like, you know what I mean?
1:02:46SPEAKERLike your fingers are kind of always poised
1:02:48SPEAKERover the triggers and you sort of just like tap the edges
1:02:52SPEAKERof the bumpers with the kind of middle part of your digit.
1:02:55SPEAKER- You've got to do a claw grip
1:02:56SPEAKERso you can get three fingers on the buttons and then.
1:02:59SPEAKER- I don't like the way the bumpers.
1:03:01SPEAKERI don't like the way it forces you to press the bumpers
1:03:03SPEAKERwith the sides of your fingers.
1:03:05SPEAKER- Yeah, I can kind of see that.
1:03:07SPEAKER- That is a little bit of a knock against it.
1:03:09SPEAKERI think it overall, it is definitely better than, well.
1:03:14SPEAKERIs it better than 360?
1:03:15SPEAKERI don't know.
1:03:16SPEAKER- It added the share button.
1:03:17SPEAKER- That was the generation that they added the share button
1:03:19SPEAKER'cause sharing became important.
1:03:20SPEAKER- The series controller does.
1:03:22SPEAKER- The Xbox one.
1:03:24SPEAKER- No, the Xbox one does not have a share button.
1:03:26SPEAKER- Doesn't it have a, yeah, I thought.
1:03:28SPEAKER- No, that was all built into the dashboard.
1:03:29SPEAKERYou had to pop the guide and have like X and Y
1:03:32SPEAKERto do screenshots and stuff.
1:03:34SPEAKER- That's right.
1:03:35SPEAKER- Sony, Sony added a share button on the PS4.
1:03:37SPEAKER- Sony loves to share, but it's about the feeling.
1:03:39SPEAKER- That's right.
1:03:40SPEAKERMicrosoft was late to the party on sharing.
1:03:42SPEAKER- Okay, how do we want to handle the elite controllers?
1:03:45SPEAKERThe other question is they added paddles,
1:03:46SPEAKERa bunch of other weird stuff.
1:03:47SPEAKERIt was really expensive.
1:03:48SPEAKERThat was a new innovation.
1:03:50SPEAKER- I don't think that really counts here.
1:03:53SPEAKER- It's first party.
1:03:54SPEAKER- It's like, I feel like we're ranking like economy sedans
1:03:59SPEAKERand all of a sudden like a Mercedes enters the conversation
1:04:02SPEAKERand it's like, ah, come on.
1:04:04SPEAKER- But it's a Mercedes from the company
1:04:06SPEAKERthat makes the economy sedans.
1:04:08SPEAKERIt's like a Lexus.
1:04:09SPEAKER- I know.
1:04:11SPEAKER- Okay, okay, I'm fine.
1:04:12SPEAKERI'm fine not counting.
1:04:13SPEAKERI think also by the time the paddles came out,
1:04:16SPEAKERmy brain was so not plastic anymore
1:04:18SPEAKERthat I could never figure out how to use them reliably.
1:04:20SPEAKER- Yeah, I never bothered.
1:04:21SPEAKERI never bothered to use,
1:04:22SPEAKERlike it was just a nicer feeling Xbox One controller to me.
1:04:25SPEAKERYou ever put that tall stick on there though?
1:04:26SPEAKER- What's that?
1:04:27SPEAKER- I like that tall stick.
1:04:28SPEAKERYou get the tall stick and you get the super long throw.
1:04:30SPEAKER- I don't like a tall stick.
1:04:32SPEAKERI like a tall stick.
1:04:35SPEAKER- Also the elites have had enough reliability issues
1:04:37SPEAKERover time for a controller that expensive
1:04:39SPEAKERthat that kind of bums me out as well.
1:04:42SPEAKER- I think the elite one was fine.
1:04:43SPEAKERThe elite two seems to be trash fire though.
1:04:45SPEAKERI've seen, the only thing I ever saw about the elite one
1:04:48SPEAKERwas like the finish, the outer layer of the controller.
1:04:51SPEAKERYeah, but I've seen people talk about the elite two
1:04:54SPEAKERjust sort of breaking on them a lot.
1:04:56SPEAKER- Okay, get the hell out of here Xbox One controllers.
1:04:59SPEAKER- I only have an elite one.
1:05:01SPEAKER- Oh, hey, we didn't talk about this.
1:05:02SPEAKERThe fact that they added the app
1:05:03SPEAKERthat lets you tweak the profile for the controllers,
1:05:06SPEAKERthat started as an elite thing.
1:05:07SPEAKERI think it eventually came down
1:05:08SPEAKERto the series controllers too.
1:05:10SPEAKER- That is the case.
1:05:11SPEAKERIt might even apply to the regular Xbox One controllers.
1:05:13SPEAKERI'm not sure.
1:05:14SPEAKERI think being able to tweak dead zone
1:05:16SPEAKERand like acceleration and stuff like that on stick
1:05:17SPEAKERis really cool.
1:05:18SPEAKER- Wait, can you do that?
1:05:21SPEAKER- You can do it on the elite and the series controllers.
1:05:23SPEAKERI'm not sure about the Xbox One controllers.
1:05:27SPEAKER- I knew you could do like custom button layouts and stuff.
1:05:29SPEAKERI didn't know you could tweak the sensitivity
1:05:31SPEAKERand the behavior of the stick.
1:05:32SPEAKERThat's huge.
1:05:33SPEAKER- I'm plugging it in and launching the app right now.
1:05:35SPEAKER- I wish every game had that.
1:05:38SPEAKERThere are some games, like Deathloop is a game
1:05:39SPEAKERwhere the analog stick control
1:05:41SPEAKERnever felt quite a hundred percent right to me.
1:05:44SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:05:45SPEAKER- And I really wish it had like an acceleration curve control
1:05:47SPEAKERor something like dead zone adjust in there.
1:05:50SPEAKERAnd it did not and that bummed me out.
1:05:52SPEAKERI didn't know you could do that at the system level.
1:05:53SPEAKERThat's cool as hell.
1:05:55SPEAKER- You have to download the Xbox accessories app,
1:05:57SPEAKERwhich I do not have on this machine.
1:05:59SPEAKER- Yes.
1:05:59SPEAKER- But I'll have it in a minute.
1:06:00SPEAKERAnd I'll tell you if that is indeed the case
1:06:02SPEAKERfor the series controllers.
1:06:03SPEAKER- I believe that exists on the PC as well.
1:06:05SPEAKER- It does. Yeah.
1:06:06SPEAKER- You can do that there too.
1:06:08SPEAKER- Okay, so let's leave that there temporarily
1:06:10SPEAKERwhile I confirm that this works.
1:06:11SPEAKER- Okay, the Xbox One is definitely pretty strong.
1:06:15SPEAKER- Syncing my data.
1:06:16SPEAKEROkay, here we go.
1:06:18SPEAKERAh, here we go, yeah.
1:06:19SPEAKERNo, you cannot do the stick mapping.
1:06:22SPEAKER- Oh.
1:06:24SPEAKER- Well, you can only do the stick mapping
1:06:26SPEAKERon I guess the elites.
1:06:29SPEAKER- Well then throw that controller in the trash.
1:06:30SPEAKER- Yep, that's bad.
1:06:31SPEAKEROkay, nevermind.
1:06:32SPEAKERForget that I said this.
1:06:35SPEAKER- All right.
1:06:35SPEAKER- Cut them off by Xbox One controllers.
1:06:38SPEAKER- Okay, I'm gonna say Genesis three button does not rate
1:06:43SPEAKERas much as I, wow.
1:06:45SPEAKERAs much as I love the weird hollow feeling
1:06:47SPEAKERof that controller and the strange like sort of pumping feel
1:06:50SPEAKERand sound of those giant face buttons.
1:06:52SPEAKER- Yeah, like the big buttons were nice.
1:06:54SPEAKER- There's something weird about the way that controller feels
1:06:57SPEAKERthat I kind of like or am nostalgic for, but...
1:07:00SPEAKER- The hollow sound is a good call out too.
1:07:02SPEAKER'Cause it makes it like,
1:07:03SPEAKERit sounds like there's nothing in there.
1:07:04SPEAKER- Yeah, like when my friend got one of those
1:07:05SPEAKERfor the first time and then went over there and played it,
1:07:07SPEAKERI was like, what the hell is going on in this thing?
1:07:08SPEAKERLike, there's like the feel like I'm pumping something
1:07:10SPEAKERin here when I press these buttons.
1:07:12SPEAKER- Did you have friends that played that,
1:07:13SPEAKERlike hold it sitting on their lap
1:07:14SPEAKERwith just three buttons on the ABC buttons?
1:07:16SPEAKER- Like fingers?
1:07:17SPEAKER- They do fingers instead of thumb?
1:07:18SPEAKER- I have seen the three finger technique,
1:07:21SPEAKERwhich is just nonsense.
1:07:23SPEAKER- I think the six button is maybe one of the better
1:07:25SPEAKERof the like fight pad style controllers.
1:07:28SPEAKER- People like the six button Genesis controller.
1:07:30SPEAKERThey really like the Saturn controller,
1:07:32SPEAKERwhich is basically just a better version
1:07:34SPEAKERof the six button Genesis.
1:07:35SPEAKER- So I don't have any experience with the Saturn controller
1:07:37SPEAKER'cause it's another one of those ones
1:07:38SPEAKERthat I have like maybe 15 minutes across my entire life with.
1:07:41SPEAKER- Like if you like, if you like CPS two fighters.
1:07:45SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:07:46SPEAKER- It's your favorite controller ever.
1:07:47SPEAKERBasically is how that breaks down.
1:07:49SPEAKERLike if you love the mid nineties 2D Capcom fighting games,
1:07:52SPEAKERlike you fucking love that controller.
1:07:54SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause you need that you need six buttons
1:07:55SPEAKERfor street fighter and all those games.
1:07:57SPEAKER- But it's also the D pad.
1:07:58SPEAKERLike there's just a bunch of the mechanics about it.
1:08:00SPEAKERPeople really like for fighting games.
1:08:02SPEAKER- What is it that makes it, is it that it rolls nicely?
1:08:05SPEAKER- I honestly can't speak to that.
1:08:07SPEAKERLike, I don't know.
1:08:08SPEAKERThere's, I'm sure there's something about the D pad design
1:08:11SPEAKERthat people really like.
1:08:13SPEAKER- I'm gonna put Genesis six button on this list.
1:08:15SPEAKER- I mean, I think I would say Saturn over that.
1:08:18SPEAKER- Oh, okay.
1:08:19SPEAKER- If we were to go for one, but I don't know that I'm,
1:08:23SPEAKERit's, I mean, it's basically the kind of ultimate example
1:08:25SPEAKERof the 2D only like game pad, the D pad and button thing.
1:08:30SPEAKER- Think it's better than the NES controller?
1:08:34SPEAKER- Personally, no.
1:08:36SPEAKER- Okay.
1:08:37SPEAKER- But I mean, just like as the kind of swan song
1:08:41SPEAKERof that era, you know, like this was the same time
1:08:42SPEAKERthe N64 was putting analog on
1:08:44SPEAKERand then the PlayStation did, right?
1:08:45SPEAKER- That's true.
1:08:47SPEAKER- Saturn was just left in the dust on controller design
1:08:50SPEAKERas well as just about everything else.
1:08:53SPEAKER- It was a souped up 32X without all the weird analog
1:08:58SPEAKERpass over three stuff.
1:08:59SPEAKERAnyway, I feel like let's put it on the list.
1:09:03SPEAKER- We can cut it later if we have to.
1:09:05SPEAKER- Yeah, okay.
1:09:06SPEAKERI'll put Saturn.
1:09:08SPEAKER- Yeah, it's there.
1:09:09SPEAKERI think Saturn is fine.
1:09:10SPEAKER- I think it's like an example of like fine craftsmanship,
1:09:14SPEAKERbut not like forward-looking design sensibilities.
1:09:17SPEAKERDoes that make sense?
1:09:18SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:09:19SPEAKER- Like it's a really well executed outdated design.
1:09:23SPEAKER- It's a beautifully made sword in a world
1:09:24SPEAKERwhere people are carrying around revolvers.
1:09:26SPEAKER- Yes, exactly.
1:09:27SPEAKERThat's exactly what it is.
1:09:29SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:09:30SPEAKER- Yes, Saturn is the S-thief,
1:09:32SPEAKERthe broadsword of controllers.
1:09:34SPEAKER- Yep.
1:09:35SPEAKER- That's just me.
1:09:36SPEAKERThat's just me poorly trying to come up
1:09:37SPEAKERwith a title for the episode.
1:09:39SPEAKER(laughing)
1:09:42SPEAKEROkay, so I think we can cut Genesis if we're going to.
1:09:46SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:09:47SPEAKER- We're gonna potentially put Saturn on there.
1:09:48SPEAKERGenesis does not.
1:09:49SPEAKER- I think Genesis, yeah, that's fine.
1:09:52SPEAKER- I don't think I can.
1:09:53SPEAKERI can't back any of the original Xbox controllers on here.
1:09:57SPEAKERThey're just so gangly.
1:09:59SPEAKER- Man, I like the breakaway cable, but you're right.
1:10:01SPEAKERLike they're not, none of them are good.
1:10:03SPEAKERLike, you know what?
1:10:04SPEAKERMy Xbox S controller always squeaked.
1:10:06SPEAKER- Really?
1:10:07SPEAKER- Always.
1:10:08SPEAKER- Interesting.
1:10:09SPEAKERI'm sorry, go ahead.
1:10:10SPEAKER- No, no, just it had a squeak.
1:10:12SPEAKEREvery time you would hold it in your hand
1:10:13SPEAKERand squeeze it in the slightest.
1:10:15SPEAKERMy first DualSense, DualShock 4 would do that too.
1:10:18SPEAKERSo, you know.
1:10:19SPEAKER- I played a shitload of video games in this era
1:10:22SPEAKERjust because it's when I started the GameSpot and I had to.
1:10:26SPEAKERAnd I always lean toward the Xbox for multi-platform
1:10:28SPEAKER'cause I always have looked and ran the best.
1:10:31SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:10:31SPEAKER- And I remember how excited I was
1:10:33SPEAKERgetting my hands on the S
1:10:34SPEAKERbecause it was so much better than the Duke.
1:10:36SPEAKER- Oh.
1:10:37SPEAKER- Like it was a huge upgrade.
1:10:38SPEAKERTo me, at least.
1:10:41SPEAKER- Yeah, I didn't hate the Duke.
1:10:43SPEAKERThe only thing I didn't like about the Duke
1:10:44SPEAKERwas the position of the black and white buttons.
1:10:46SPEAKER- Yeah, those were terrible.
1:10:47SPEAKERLike those got better on the S, but really it was just--
1:10:49SPEAKER- 'Cause they were like up above, right?
1:10:51SPEAKEROn the Duke and down below on that.
1:10:53SPEAKERLike they were below.
1:10:54SPEAKER- I think they were also like a weird shape.
1:10:56SPEAKERLike kind of hard to press.
1:10:57SPEAKER- They were like overly and kind of recessed.
1:10:58SPEAKER- Yeah, I did not love that stuff.
1:11:00SPEAKER- The S just had like a nicer,
1:11:01SPEAKERlike sleeker sort of profile in the hand.
1:11:04SPEAKER- But neither of them were very good.
1:11:05SPEAKERI think you're right about that.
1:11:06SPEAKER- Like you're right that the breakaway cable
1:11:08SPEAKERwas cool in its day,
1:11:09SPEAKERbut you know what's better than the breakaway cable?
1:11:12SPEAKER- No cable?
1:11:13SPEAKER- No cable.
1:11:13SPEAKER- No cable's better.
1:11:14SPEAKEROkay, kill the Duke.
1:11:15SPEAKERKill the S.
1:11:16SPEAKER- I don't think the Xbox controllers
1:11:18SPEAKERreally did much of note.
1:11:20SPEAKER- Oh, hey, we're up to the GameCube again.
1:11:21SPEAKER- Dude, I can't.
1:11:24SPEAKER- Show me a controller that is more comfortable to hold
1:11:28SPEAKERthan the GameCube controller.
1:11:30SPEAKER- In any of them on this list.
1:11:32SPEAKER- What?
1:11:33SPEAKERIt fits perfectly in your hand.
1:11:34SPEAKERIt nestles.
1:11:35SPEAKER- It's got those weird like sharp ridges
1:11:37SPEAKERon the edges behind in the back.
1:11:39SPEAKER- Those cup your fingers into the correct holding positions.
1:11:43SPEAKER- The finger blades,
1:11:44SPEAKERthe thing that cuts into your hand so you can't put it.
1:11:46SPEAKER- How the hell do you hold a controller?
1:11:48SPEAKERIt is a spectacularly comfortable.
1:11:50SPEAKERI have one in my entertainment center still,
1:11:53SPEAKERso I can plug it into the Wii when I play classic games.
1:11:56SPEAKER- Man, I just, like two of those face buttons
1:11:59SPEAKERare shaped like lima beans.
1:12:01SPEAKER- Okay, the face buttons are not great.
1:12:03SPEAKER- The gigantic A button feels like something.
1:12:06SPEAKER- It has something intense on the triggers.
1:12:08SPEAKER- The gigantic green A button feels like something
1:12:10SPEAKERout of a Fisher Price product, I'm sorry.
1:12:12SPEAKER- Wow.
1:12:13SPEAKER- Sorry.
1:12:14SPEAKER- Oh yeah, more like, more like Zelda, am I right?
1:12:17SPEAKER- No, dude, I love Wind Waker.
1:12:19SPEAKERIt is one of my favorite games.
1:12:20SPEAKER- I know, I'm just saying you just made the same argument
1:12:21SPEAKERthat they made about Wind Waker.
1:12:23SPEAKER- That is unfair.
1:12:24SPEAKERThat is unkind.
1:12:25SPEAKER- This is a controller for babies.
1:12:28SPEAKER- I mean, I get what they're going for.
1:12:29SPEAKERLike they had the idea, like, I mean,
1:12:32SPEAKERthat was high concept Nintendo there again of like,
1:12:34SPEAKERhey, what if we had one main button
1:12:35SPEAKERand then there was some other stuff,
1:12:36SPEAKERbut it's really, it's the one button,
1:12:38SPEAKERbut it never worked out in practice that way.
1:12:40SPEAKER- Well, so, okay, so here's my argument
1:12:42SPEAKERfor the GameCube controller,
1:12:44SPEAKERand I'm not gonna stick on this too hard.
1:12:46SPEAKERHad a bad D-pad.
1:12:48SPEAKER- I don't remember the D-pad being terrible.
1:12:50SPEAKER- It's small.
1:12:51SPEAKER- It's too small, yes, you're right.
1:12:52SPEAKERYou're right, it was definitely too small.
1:12:54SPEAKER- But the analog stick was really good.
1:12:56SPEAKERThe triggers feel spectacular.
1:12:58SPEAKERThere's a really nice long drum.
1:13:00SPEAKERThey have a little bit of tent at the end
1:13:01SPEAKERthat chunks in nicely.
1:13:02SPEAKER- You're right, you're right.
1:13:03SPEAKERThose triggers feel very good.
1:13:04SPEAKERThose are probably the best thing on that controller.
1:13:06SPEAKER- I think that the thought, I think you're right
1:13:09SPEAKERthat the thought between a giant A button
1:13:12SPEAKERfor the main verb that you do in the game
1:13:14SPEAKERand a secondary B button
1:13:16SPEAKERfor the second most important verb you do in the game
1:13:19SPEAKERprobably were better ideas
1:13:20SPEAKERthan they were realized in practice.
1:13:22SPEAKERBut those buttons both felt really good
1:13:24SPEAKERand the lima bean buttons weren't bad.
1:13:26SPEAKER- They're fine.
1:13:27SPEAKER- What you use X and Y for in most games,
1:13:30SPEAKERlike really if I have one,
1:13:32SPEAKERlike the thing that got the GameCube game
1:13:34SPEAKERis that around the time the GameCube came out,
1:13:37SPEAKERalso Microsoft figured out or Bungie figured out
1:13:39SPEAKERhow to do first-person shooter controls on game pads.
1:13:43SPEAKERAnd the first-person shooter controls didn't work
1:13:46SPEAKERwith the small C-stick really.
1:13:54SPEAKERIf this controller had come out in a time
1:13:56SPEAKERbefore first-person shooters
1:13:58SPEAKERwere booming on those platforms,
1:14:01SPEAKERI think it would have been a different,
1:14:03SPEAKERlike if we were trying to play,
1:14:05SPEAKERit's weird 'cause Nintendo does this a lot.
1:14:07SPEAKERThey had really forward thinking hardware
1:14:09SPEAKERand then kind of backwards looking software
1:14:11SPEAKERwhere they weren't keeping up with the trends
1:14:12SPEAKER'cause they didn't like the violence in shooters.
1:14:16SPEAKERAnd as a result, the controller was maybe not great.
1:14:18SPEAKERIt would have been great for third-person platformers.
1:14:21SPEAKER- Yeah, and they made some bets that did not pan out.
1:14:24SPEAKER- I still think it's a really comfortable controller.
1:14:26SPEAKERI think it's really good.
1:14:27SPEAKER- Yeah, I get it.
1:14:28SPEAKERIt's pretty ergonomic.
1:14:31SPEAKERThe C-stick was basically just an evolved version
1:14:33SPEAKERof the stupid C buttons from the N64
1:14:35SPEAKERand that was a bad idea to begin with.
1:14:38SPEAKERThey should have just dropped it
1:14:39SPEAKERinstead of trying to do it again.
1:14:40SPEAKER- Well, yeah, look, the mistake that they made
1:14:43SPEAKERis that they should have either done two full sticks
1:14:45SPEAKERor stuck with one stick and written,
1:14:49SPEAKERthis probably shuttered the company
1:14:50SPEAKERat the end of that generation 'cause it got even worse.
1:14:52SPEAKER- I think that was, well, that was not in the cards,
1:14:55SPEAKERbut I think they were really feeling it
1:14:57SPEAKERbefore the Wii came along and kind of...
1:14:59SPEAKER- Wii and DS, to be fair.
1:15:01SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:15:02SPEAKER- But before those were huge successes,
1:15:03SPEAKERI think the GameCube was pretty rough for them.
1:15:07SPEAKERI don't know, man. - You're gonna cut this,
1:15:08SPEAKERaren't you?
1:15:11SPEAKERWhat about the Wavebird?
1:15:12SPEAKERIt's the first wireless controller, Brad.
1:15:14SPEAKER- To be honest, I think I would throw
1:15:16SPEAKERthe GameCube controller a bone
1:15:17SPEAKERand just say that the Wavebird counts
1:15:19SPEAKERas part of the GameCube controller argument.
1:15:22SPEAKERLike, I'll just give 'em that.
1:15:24SPEAKER- I mean, I'm fine putting the Wavebird on the list
1:15:26SPEAKERand leaving the GameCube controller off, frankly.
1:15:28SPEAKER- Ooh, now you're talking.
1:15:30SPEAKER- Like, I think the Wavebird,
1:15:32SPEAKERlike, also, their pairing system for the Wavebird
1:15:35SPEAKERmaybe is better than anything that's come since.
1:15:37SPEAKER- Oh, I never owned one.
1:15:38SPEAKERHow did that work?
1:15:39SPEAKER- It had a knob that had numbers written on it.
1:15:43SPEAKER- What? - And you turned,
1:15:44SPEAKERand you had a dongle that you plugged
1:15:45SPEAKERinto the controller port on the front of the thing,
1:15:49SPEAKERand you made sure that the dongle
1:15:50SPEAKERhad the same number on it that your controller had on.
1:15:55SPEAKER- Wow.
1:15:56SPEAKER- So literally, you didn't have to press any buttons
1:15:58SPEAKERor anything, it just was, you just turned the knob
1:16:00SPEAKERto pair up.
1:16:01SPEAKER- That's kind of awesome.
1:16:02SPEAKERThat's like a little video game puzzle.
1:16:04SPEAKER- It also meant that if you were playing with friends,
1:16:06SPEAKERyou could mess them up by turning on your Wavebird
1:16:09SPEAKERand turning on the same number as them
1:16:10SPEAKERand, like, jack up their inputs.
1:16:11SPEAKER- That's really rotten.
1:16:13SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:16:14SPEAKER- I'm kind of into it.
1:16:15SPEAKER- All right, yeah.
1:16:16SPEAKER- Check this out, I'm going to type the word Wavebird here.
1:16:18SPEAKERI can get behind this.
1:16:20SPEAKER- And forget the rest of the GameCube.
1:16:22SPEAKER- That's fine.
1:16:23SPEAKER- Like, I really have to give them a lot of credit
1:16:26SPEAKERfor putting the first true good wireless controller out.
1:16:30SPEAKER- Yeah, like, they looked at it and were like,
1:16:31SPEAKER"Hey, here's a problem, people don't sit on the,"
1:16:33SPEAKERlike, old people, meaning 20-year-olds at that point,
1:16:37SPEAKERaren't going to sit on the floor in front of their TV
1:16:39SPEAKERlike they did when they were eight, you know,
1:16:41SPEAKERlooking up all the time in Nintendo.
1:16:43SPEAKER- Yes, yes.
1:16:45SPEAKER- I think we have to talk about the Wii.
1:16:47SPEAKER- Man, I was kind of avoiding it.
1:16:50SPEAKERI would not put any of those on here if you really...
1:16:55SPEAKER- They sold so many Wiis, man.
1:16:57SPEAKER- That doesn't mean much to the context of this.
1:17:01SPEAKER- I did a lot of bowling over those years.
1:17:04SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:17:06SPEAKER- Like, the, so here's the thing, is if, for me,
1:17:11SPEAKERif they had launched the Wii with the IMU controller
1:17:13SPEAKERthat came later with the gyroscope and the accelerometers
1:17:16SPEAKERwith the MotionPlus stuff, like, that was a pretty good,
1:17:20SPEAKERlike, that was good for more than just waving your arm
1:17:25SPEAKERaround really fast to make something happen on the screen.
1:17:27SPEAKER- So that's exactly where this breaks down for me,
1:17:28SPEAKERis that, like, Wii Sports being good does not make up
1:17:33SPEAKERfor the fact that, like, otherwise that controller
1:17:35SPEAKERwas, like, kind of a pale imitation of what you thought
1:17:37SPEAKERit was going to be at launch, you know what I mean?
1:17:39SPEAKERLike, you thought it was going to be what the MotionPlus
1:17:40SPEAKERwent on to actually be years later, right?
1:17:43SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:17:43SPEAKER- Which is that you thought you were going to get
1:17:45SPEAKERthat kind of one-to-one control between what your arm
1:17:48SPEAKERwas doing and what your character's arm in the game
1:17:49SPEAKERwas doing, and it very much was not actually that.
1:17:52SPEAKER- What came to the box with the Wii,
1:17:54SPEAKERwas it just one Wiimote and a nunchuck?
1:17:58SPEAKER- Ah, god.
1:18:00SPEAKER- Man, I like the nunchuck.
1:18:01SPEAKER- You were really straining my memory here.
1:18:02SPEAKER- No, no, it was one, it was a rhetorical question.
1:18:05SPEAKERIt's one Wiimote and a nunchuck was in the box.
1:18:07SPEAKER- Oh, there was a nunchuck in the, okay.
1:18:08SPEAKERI started to say they might have sold the nunchucks everly?
1:18:10SPEAKEROkay.
1:18:12SPEAKER- Yeah, 'cause you had to have the nunchuck to play
1:18:15SPEAKERhalf of the Wii sports games.
1:18:17SPEAKER- Okay, okay, that's good.
1:18:18SPEAKER- Like the bow and arrow one,
1:18:20SPEAKERyou had to have the nunchuck for.
1:18:22SPEAKER- Yes.
1:18:27SPEAKER- Part of me says we shouldn't include the Wii stuff
1:18:30SPEAKERbecause it spawned generations of really bad stuff.
1:18:34SPEAKERIt was such a spectacular success despite being kind of bad.
1:18:37SPEAKER- Yeah, well, like, what do you have in mind?
1:18:40SPEAKER- Well, I mean, like the PlayStation Move followed,
1:18:42SPEAKERthe Kinect followed, we didn't talk about Kinect at all.
1:18:45SPEAKER- Jesus. - Holy shit.
1:18:46SPEAKER- Fuck the Kinect, dude.
1:18:47SPEAKERNever say that word again. - That has to come in Xbox One.
1:18:49SPEAKERThat shipped with the box.
1:18:50SPEAKER- Never say that word again.
1:18:51SPEAKER- You couldn't buy it without the Kinect.
1:18:54SPEAKER- You're right, in a world, yes,
1:18:55SPEAKERin a world without the Wii remote, there's also no Kinect.
1:19:00SPEAKER- Yeah, so really, like if I had a time machine
1:19:04SPEAKERand I went back in time and killed the Wiimote,
1:19:06SPEAKERwe wouldn't have had a Kinect.
1:19:07SPEAKER- Boy.
1:19:09SPEAKER- Moral, philosophical questions
1:19:11SPEAKERwe are not prepared to tackle here.
1:19:14SPEAKERI think the MotionPlus is cool,
1:19:16SPEAKERbut it was sort of too little too late, if that makes sense.
1:19:19SPEAKEROr it was kind of just enough, but too late,
1:19:22SPEAKERI guess I would say, like it is what you wanted
1:19:24SPEAKERthe Wii remote to be in the first place,
1:19:25SPEAKERbut they didn't deliver it until,
1:19:28SPEAKERGod, when did that thing even come out?
1:19:30SPEAKERHalfway through. - It was late, halfway through.
1:19:32SPEAKER- Oh, it came out with Skyward Sword.
1:19:34SPEAKERThat was 2011, I believe.
1:19:36SPEAKER- Yeah, that seems right.
1:19:37SPEAKER- Let's see.
1:19:38SPEAKER- There's just, for me, the whole thing-
1:19:40SPEAKER- Oh, no, no, let me, I have to correct myself, I'm sorry.
1:19:42SPEAKERThe Motion, wow, no, the MotionPlus came out in 2009.
1:19:44SPEAKER- Oh, with Wii Sports Resort.
1:19:46SPEAKER- So that was only three years into the Wii.
1:19:50SPEAKER- So basically, what happened is when phones came out
1:19:53SPEAKERand drove the price of those chips down,
1:19:57SPEAKERthe gyroscope chips down, 'cause like,
1:19:58SPEAKERif you look at the price curve for gyroscope chips
1:20:01SPEAKERfrom 2007, when the iPhone came out,
1:20:03SPEAKERto 2010, when they launched the iPhone 4,
1:20:05SPEAKERthe prices went from like $3 a chip
1:20:09SPEAKERto like 18 cents a chip, or something like that.
1:20:12SPEAKER- My good old Apple economy of scale.
1:20:13SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:20:15SPEAKER- Is that what the IMU is?
1:20:16SPEAKERIs that like an integrated sensor?
1:20:19SPEAKER- Yeah, it stands for Integrated Inertial Motion Unit
1:20:24SPEAKERor something, but it's basically a gyroscope,
1:20:26SPEAKERan accelerometer, sometimes there's a compass in there.
1:20:30SPEAKERSo just more points of data giving,
1:20:32SPEAKERit basically gives you a closed box way
1:20:34SPEAKERto tell what's moving on a device.
1:20:37SPEAKER- Okay, that makes sense.
1:20:39SPEAKER- Okay.
1:20:40SPEAKER- I just, you know, thinking about the applications
1:20:42SPEAKERof motion, even after the Motion Plus came,
1:20:45SPEAKERlike Skyward Sword was not, that was supposed
1:20:47SPEAKERto be the showcase for what the Motion Plus could do,
1:20:49SPEAKERand eh.
1:20:51SPEAKER- Wii Sports Resort was pretty good.
1:20:52SPEAKER- Yeah, that's true.
1:20:54SPEAKER- Like it was basically a pack-in for the dongle thing.
1:20:57SPEAKER- Like the Wii Sports games were kind of
1:20:58SPEAKERthe only true successful Wii motion games.
1:21:02SPEAKER- Oh, look, you're gonna say that now,
1:21:03SPEAKERpeople are gonna post like 50 games that are awesome
1:21:06SPEAKER'cause like a bazillion games came out for the Wii.
1:21:08SPEAKER- I'm sure there was other stuff,
1:21:09SPEAKERbut there were tons of games where people just tolerated
1:21:11SPEAKERthe presence of motion controls
1:21:12SPEAKERrather than like celebrated them.
1:21:14SPEAKER- Yeah, like look, when I had the opportunity
1:21:17SPEAKERto buy Breath of the Wild on either the Wii U
1:21:20SPEAKERor the Switch and deal with motion stuff
1:21:22SPEAKERon the Wii U or not on the Switch,
1:21:24SPEAKERor no, Twilight Princess is what I'm thinking about.
1:21:26SPEAKER- Yes, yes.
1:21:27SPEAKER- Right, I went with Twilight Princess on the Wii U
1:21:29SPEAKERas a no-brainer because--
1:21:30SPEAKER- You mean on the GameCube?
1:21:31SPEAKER- On the GameCube.
1:21:32SPEAKER- Oh, you have that? - 'Cause I have to do
1:21:34SPEAKERthe motion stuff.
1:21:35SPEAKER- Did you still have it?
1:21:35SPEAKERDo you have a GameCube copy of Twilight Princess?
1:21:37SPEAKERI think that's like-- - Probably why.
1:21:38SPEAKER- I think that might be-- - Is it desirable?
1:21:40SPEAKER- It might be of some value.
1:21:41SPEAKERThey did a pretty limited print run of that game.
1:21:44SPEAKER- Interesting.
1:21:45SPEAKER- It came out like a month after,
1:21:46SPEAKERI think it came out like a month later,
1:21:47SPEAKERand they didn't make that many copies, I think.
1:21:50SPEAKER- I ordered that because I didn't know
1:21:51SPEAKERthat I was gonna have a Wii at the time.
1:21:54SPEAKERLike I was not early on the Wii pre-order list, I thought.
1:21:59SPEAKER- Okay.
1:21:59SPEAKER- So I got the GameCube one 'cause I wanted to play.
1:22:01SPEAKERAnyway. - Well, you came out ahead.
1:22:02SPEAKER- Also, that entire game was flipped.
1:22:04SPEAKERIt was mirrored, I don't know if you know that.
1:22:06SPEAKER- Yeah, because you had to play with your right hand
1:22:08SPEAKERon the Wii. - Well, Link is traditionally
1:22:10SPEAKERa lefty, but yeah, most people were right-handed,
1:22:14SPEAKERso they wanted that to be reflected in the motion
1:22:16SPEAKERyou were swinging around.
1:22:17SPEAKER- It would be a very different game
1:22:18SPEAKERif you were just swinging your shield around
1:22:20SPEAKERfor hours and hours.
1:22:21SPEAKER- Yes. - All right, okay.
1:22:23SPEAKERCut the Wii. - Can I strike
1:22:24SPEAKERall of the motion controls through here?
1:22:27SPEAKER- The other thing that was neat about the Wii
1:22:29SPEAKERis the fact that it had the little extension port
1:22:31SPEAKERthat you could plug the nunchuck in
1:22:34SPEAKERand then plug a gamepad or the SNES gamepads
1:22:38SPEAKERthat they had for that. - It's kind of a neat idea,
1:22:39SPEAKERand it did allow them to sell a MotionPlus dongle
1:22:41SPEAKERthat could just attach to existing.
1:22:43SPEAKER- But also it was just an excuse for them
1:22:45SPEAKERto sell a buttload of accessories.
1:22:47SPEAKER- That also was true, yeah.
1:22:48SPEAKER- Okay, cut it. - Yes, gone.
1:22:51SPEAKER- Okay, so currently the list as it stands
1:22:53SPEAKERin no particular order is the N64 three-pronged controller,
1:22:57SPEAKERthe DualSense five, the one that shipped with the PS5,
1:23:00SPEAKERthe SNES controller, the Xbox 360 pad,
1:23:02SPEAKERthe Saturn controller, and the Wavebirds.
1:23:04SPEAKERWe have six things on our list of 10.
1:23:06SPEAKER- That is six. - That is six.
1:23:11SPEAKERI think the Wii U doesn't hang.
1:23:12SPEAKER- I have got a real soft spot for the Wii U controller.
1:23:16SPEAKER- The pro controller or the-- - Oh, the actual, yeah,
1:23:17SPEAKERlike the tablet. - The one with the screen.
1:23:19SPEAKER- Yes, I'm not saying it should be in the top 10,
1:23:22SPEAKERbut look, there's something about it, man, I don't know.
1:23:25SPEAKERIt's just so ridiculous, it's so big.
1:23:29SPEAKER- It added contactless, which was cool.
1:23:30SPEAKERIt had a touchscreen, which is neat.
1:23:32SPEAKER- Yeah, it was single touch though, right?
1:23:35SPEAKER- Single touch, it was a resistive single touch pad, yeah.
1:23:38SPEAKERI remember one time when I was sick,
1:23:40SPEAKERI unplugged the Wii U from the living room
1:23:43SPEAKERand I carried it back and I plugged it
1:23:44SPEAKERinto the power port next to my bed,
1:23:46SPEAKERand I laid in bed and I played, I don't remember,
1:23:49SPEAKERlike a Zelda or probably the Wind Waker reissue
1:23:52SPEAKERthat they did for that, and that was great.
1:23:54SPEAKER- Yeah. - Really loved it.
1:23:55SPEAKER- I could say it's genuinely kind of a neat idea.
1:23:58SPEAKERAlso, it led to the situations where you saw photos
1:24:00SPEAKERof people dragging their entire Wii U onto an airplane.
1:24:04SPEAKER- Yeah. - Or sitting there in class,
1:24:06SPEAKERplugging it into the outlet on the side of the classroom.
1:24:09SPEAKERLike, the fact that you could play that,
1:24:11SPEAKERlike a big-ass console without a TV around was kind of cool.
1:24:14SPEAKER- But are we just saying that because it's like a bad,
1:24:17SPEAKERlike are we basically saying, hey, this is a bad Switch?
1:24:19SPEAKER- Hmm.
1:24:21SPEAKER- Like, is it making the list 'cause it's a bad Switch?
1:24:23SPEAKER- It's interesting because it's like a proto,
1:24:27SPEAKERkind of primordial version of a Switch.
1:24:29SPEAKER- Yeah. - But it's also,
1:24:30SPEAKERbut it's also an evolved version of a DS.
1:24:32SPEAKERLike, you can kind of see the lineage both directions.
1:24:34SPEAKERLike, you can absolutely see how the Wii U came about
1:24:37SPEAKERoff the back of the DS's success.
1:24:39SPEAKERSo it was literally like, how do we add a second screen
1:24:42SPEAKERthat is a touchscreen to our next console
1:24:43SPEAKERbecause that is doing Game Busters for us in the handheld.
1:24:46SPEAKER- Is the Wii U your GameCube?
1:24:49SPEAKERIs this the one that is bad that you love?
1:24:52SPEAKER- Like, again, I would not make a serious argument
1:24:55SPEAKERthat it's one of the 10 best controllers on this list
1:24:58SPEAKERthat we were making.
1:24:59SPEAKER- I mean, it did bring a lot, like the handheld,
1:25:03SPEAKERlike arguably the idea that it was the beta test
1:25:06SPEAKERfor the Switch and the Switch was actually,
1:25:07SPEAKERlike, man, I don't know anybody who replaced a Wii U stick.
1:25:11SPEAKER- No. - Certainly not.
1:25:13SPEAKER- Right? - Mine's still worse.
1:25:15SPEAKER- You could buy that big-ass battery.
1:25:16SPEAKERNintendo sold an official large capacity battery
1:25:20SPEAKERfor that thing.
1:25:21SPEAKER- Where did it hang off the back?
1:25:23SPEAKER- Yeah, I think it was just like it stuck out more
1:25:25SPEAKERin the back than the regular battery does.
1:25:27SPEAKERBut hey, user-replaceable rechargeable battery, look at that.
1:25:30SPEAKER- Yeah, that's a pro.
1:25:32SPEAKER- You know what? - The range on it
1:25:33SPEAKERwas really bad though.
1:25:34SPEAKERLike, if you broke line of sight with your Wii,
1:25:35SPEAKERI had my Wii in a cabinet and like,
1:25:37SPEAKERif I walked more than about 15 feet away,
1:25:39SPEAKERit just went to shit.
1:25:41SPEAKER- Yeah, like using a Wii U in studio settings quite a bit,
1:25:43SPEAKERyou definitely ran into the limitations of that thing.
1:25:47SPEAKER- I still think conceptually that the Wii U gamepad
1:25:51SPEAKERis a bold number 10.
1:25:53SPEAKER- I can get behind that.
1:25:55SPEAKER- I'm just gonna write it here.
1:25:56SPEAKER- Yeah, put it down.
1:25:58SPEAKERLook, Amiibos became a punchline over the next 10 years,
1:26:01SPEAKERbut the idea that that "Toys to Life" stuff
1:26:05SPEAKERwas such a big deal,
1:26:07SPEAKERand the idea that they were doing that,
1:26:12SPEAKERand you know what?
1:26:14SPEAKEREven that aside, the stuff that you could do
1:26:16SPEAKERwith having everybody watching a TV, but one person,
1:26:19SPEAKERlike I'm still bummed that there were no other games
1:26:22SPEAKERlike Nintendo Land that really, really used that
1:26:25SPEAKERin like a couch situation. - Yeah, Nintendo Land was cool.
1:26:27SPEAKER- Because like those games where you had four people
1:26:31SPEAKERsitting on the couch using normal controllers
1:26:32SPEAKERand one person was on the pad,
1:26:34SPEAKERlike you could do some,
1:26:35SPEAKERlike it was like "Proto" among us in a lot of cases.
1:26:39SPEAKER- Asymmetric multiplayer is generally a super cool concept
1:26:42SPEAKERand that was a good way to facilitate it.
1:26:44SPEAKER- Yeah, okay, I could get behind this.
1:26:46SPEAKER- I can put a number 10 slot for the Wii U.
1:26:49SPEAKER- I didn't even come into this thing expecting
1:26:51SPEAKERto go to bat for that thing, but here we are.
1:26:54SPEAKER- Look, I didn't expect anybody to go to bat for that thing,
1:26:57SPEAKERbut the G-pad was good, the buttons were in a good place,
1:27:00SPEAKERit was comfortable to hold despite being huge and chonky.
1:27:04SPEAKER- Have we cut too aggressively?
1:27:06SPEAKER- Well, I wondered that.
1:27:07SPEAKER- 'Cause I don't know if we have 10,
1:27:09SPEAKERwe'll see, that's seven.
1:27:11SPEAKERWe have seven things on here.
1:27:14SPEAKER- We kind of skipped over the,
1:27:16SPEAKERwell, we have to talk about the Kinect probably.
1:27:17SPEAKER- Oh no, we don't, that doesn't count.
1:27:23SPEAKER- Let's see, is there anything I would put back?
1:27:25SPEAKERI don't think anything that we've cut, I would put back.
1:27:27SPEAKER- Yeah, like so much of this stuff is so iterative
1:27:30SPEAKERor evolutionary, you know, like again,
1:27:31SPEAKERlike the Sony controllers are just each one slightly better
1:27:34SPEAKERexcept for the six axis, which was actually worse,
1:27:36SPEAKERbut you know, like each one was just kind of the same thing
1:27:38SPEAKERbut slightly better.
1:27:40SPEAKER- We talk about move controllers.
1:27:45SPEAKERThe PlayStation Move.
1:27:46SPEAKER- Yes.
1:27:48SPEAKER- Trying to think, God, there was no Xbox equivalent,
1:27:51SPEAKERwas there?
1:27:52SPEAKER- The Kinect was the Xbox equivalent.
1:27:55SPEAKERThe, God, what was it, CNET, the CNET trivia,
1:27:58SPEAKERbuzz in controllers for the 360.
1:28:00SPEAKER- Oh man, I have a set of those, those are great.
1:28:02SPEAKER- I totally also do.
1:28:04SPEAKERMy family really liked playing CNET for one Christmas.
1:28:08SPEAKER- Oh yeah, well, you know, you can plug those into your PC
1:28:11SPEAKERand set it up as a Steam profile
1:28:13SPEAKER'cause it just shows up as an X input controller
1:28:15SPEAKERand you can play like Jackbox, well, you can't play Jackbox
1:28:17SPEAKERbut you can play other trivia games with them.
1:28:19SPEAKER- That's kind of neat.
1:28:20SPEAKER- Uh-huh.
1:28:23SPEAKERI don't think the CNET controllers make the cut, Brad,
1:28:25SPEAKERI'm sorry.
1:28:25SPEAKER- Nope, they do not.
1:28:28SPEAKER- We haven't talked about the Xbox series controller.
1:28:30SPEAKER- We did a little bit.
1:28:31SPEAKERTalked about the texture on the triggers.
1:28:34SPEAKER- It's very good.
1:28:35SPEAKER- Like I'm, you know, I'm sitting here looking at it.
1:28:37SPEAKERIt's got texture triggers, it's got the share button.
1:28:43SPEAKERUh, there's gotta be something else about it that's new.
1:28:47SPEAKER- Batteries.
1:28:49SPEAKER- Well, they all have batteries.
1:28:51SPEAKER- You can replace the batteries.
1:28:51SPEAKERWhat I like about it actually is if you double tap,
1:28:54SPEAKERif you're running the newer firmwares,
1:28:56SPEAKERif you double tap the radio button, the pair button.
1:28:58SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
1:28:59SPEAKER- You can switch between the two most recent devices
1:29:01SPEAKERit connected to 'cause you can switch it
1:29:02SPEAKERbetween wireless on your PC and wireless on your Xbox.
1:29:05SPEAKER- Do you know if the Xbox One controllers got that?
1:29:06SPEAKER- Nope, they did not.
1:29:08SPEAKER- That is pretty good.
1:29:10SPEAKERLike, this is almost a whole other episode topic
1:29:12SPEAKERbut the degree to which the modern Xboxes
1:29:15SPEAKERare just kind of turning into PCs is kind of hilarious to me.
1:29:19SPEAKER- I think it's kind of all the consoles, honestly.
1:29:21SPEAKER- Well, but I mean, really like Microsoft's,
1:29:24SPEAKERexcuse me, like Microsoft's OS UI design chops
1:29:26SPEAKERare like very obviously being brought to bear
1:29:28SPEAKERon parts of that thing.
1:29:30SPEAKER- Oh yeah, yeah.
1:29:30SPEAKER- Like, did you see the night mode that just added?
1:29:33SPEAKER- No.
1:29:34SPEAKER- Like it is almost exactly the dialogue
1:29:37SPEAKERfrom like a Windows type control panel
1:29:39SPEAKERthat you would see to let you, you can schedule it.
1:29:42SPEAKERLike you can set a custom schedule
1:29:43SPEAKERor set it against the sunrise and sunset.
1:29:47SPEAKERYou can adjust, like there's sliders
1:29:48SPEAKERfor the brightness of the controller light
1:29:51SPEAKERand the console light.
1:29:53SPEAKERLike it tints the screen.
1:29:54SPEAKERLike it gives you the orange tint on the like,
1:29:56SPEAKERthat's literally like out of Windows, basically.
1:29:58SPEAKERThat's like, it's literally like the night light
1:30:00SPEAKERor whatever it's called in Windows, basically.
1:30:02SPEAKER- That's pretty nice.
1:30:03SPEAKERI'm actually, I'm gonna put my S in the living room
1:30:07SPEAKERto replace the launch Xbox 'cause my daughter uses it
1:30:10SPEAKERto play like Viva Vignata and stuff sometimes still
1:30:11SPEAKERand like, I'm a little torn on the Xbox One.
1:30:17SPEAKERLike I feel like the Xbox One controller is better.
1:30:20SPEAKERThe Rev 2 ones, the Bluetooth ones
1:30:23SPEAKERthat launched with, I think the S.
1:30:24SPEAKER- Yeah, the launch model Xbox One controllers were not great.
1:30:28SPEAKER- Well, they didn't, they were only that Wi-Fi direct,
1:30:30SPEAKERthat weird Wi-Fi direct variant that they used.
1:30:33SPEAKER- They did not have Bluetooth.
1:30:34SPEAKERThey also did not have headphone jacks.
1:30:37SPEAKERWell, actually like fucking huge shout out
1:30:39SPEAKERto whoever decided to put headphone jacks into controllers.
1:30:41SPEAKERLike that.
1:30:42SPEAKER- Man, should we revisit like that?
1:30:44SPEAKERThe first place I saw that was on the DualShock 4.
1:30:46SPEAKER- Yes, the DualShock 4.
1:30:47SPEAKERThat was huge for, especially somebody with a partner
1:30:50SPEAKERwho goes to bed very early to get up early for work.
1:30:53SPEAKER- Oh yeah.
1:30:54SPEAKER- Being able to just plug my nice headphones
1:30:55SPEAKERstraight into the controller I was using
1:30:57SPEAKERand not have to worry about any other wireless crap.
1:30:59SPEAKERLike, radical innovation.
1:31:03SPEAKER- I'm gonna get, okay.
1:31:04SPEAKERI think, I don't think we can put both Xbox One
1:31:06SPEAKERand Xbox Series controllers on.
1:31:10SPEAKER- Certainly not if the 360 controller
1:31:12SPEAKERis always also on here.
1:31:14SPEAKER- I think the DualShock 4 might make the cut though.
1:31:18SPEAKERConcave triggers, touch, the headphone port.
1:31:21SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:31:22SPEAKER- That's pretty good.
1:31:23SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:31:24SPEAKERYou're not wrong.
1:31:27SPEAKER- Like that, I would argue that that is maybe
1:31:29SPEAKERthe first good PlayStation controller.
1:31:31SPEAKER- Oh, I'm with you.
1:31:32SPEAKERI was like shocked when the PS4 came out.
1:31:33SPEAKERI was like, dude, like I have not loved Sony controllers
1:31:36SPEAKERto date really, but this thing's fucking awesome.
1:31:38SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:31:39SPEAKER- Even with the kind of weak triggers on that thing,
1:31:41SPEAKERit became my preferred controller that generation.
1:31:43SPEAKER- Yeah, as soon as it became sport,
1:31:44SPEAKERlike I used DualShock, do DS4 for Windows for years
1:31:47SPEAKERto use that on my PC.
1:31:48SPEAKER- Like I jumped through all the hoops
1:31:50SPEAKERof what you're talking about,
1:31:51SPEAKERthe literal DS4 Windows app.
1:31:54SPEAKER- An app that you had to run in the background
1:31:56SPEAKERto make the controller work for your X input games.
1:31:59SPEAKERAnd then Steam just started supporting it out of nowhere
1:32:01SPEAKERand that was wonderful.
1:32:02SPEAKER- Yes, but I too jumped through all those hoops
1:32:04SPEAKERfor PC games 'cause I liked it so much.
1:32:06SPEAKER- That's, yeah, the DualShock 4 is pretty good.
1:32:09SPEAKER- I'm writing it down.
1:32:10SPEAKER- In some ways, I still like it more than the DualSense.
1:32:13SPEAKER- Wow.
1:32:16SPEAKEROkay.
1:32:18SPEAKER- But yeah, we don't need,
1:32:19SPEAKERwe definitely don't need three Xbox controllers on here.
1:32:23SPEAKERThe one in the series are so close.
1:32:26SPEAKER- I mean, so the question is,
1:32:27SPEAKERis this series enough of an improvement over like the rev?
1:32:31SPEAKERLike if I was putting the Xbox One controller
1:32:32SPEAKERand it has to be the Rev 2 ones, it can't be the Rev 1 one.
1:32:36SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:32:38SPEAKERAnd honestly, the only thing I don't like
1:32:40SPEAKERabout the Xbox series controller is the hex,
1:32:42SPEAKERis the bad D-pad.
1:32:43SPEAKER- You're right, I'm with you.
1:32:45SPEAKERI think of those two, the series controller
1:32:48SPEAKERprobably has to go on there
1:32:49SPEAKERwith the extra accessibility options
1:32:51SPEAKERand the dual profile kind of toggling device stuff.
1:32:55SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:32:57SPEAKERYeah.
1:33:01SPEAKERI'm with you.
1:33:02SPEAKER- And mine's blue and shiny.
1:33:05SPEAKER- Wait, I got the blue one.
1:33:06SPEAKER- Oh, wow, it's like the pearlescent kind of finish.
1:33:08SPEAKEROh, that's cool.
1:33:09SPEAKERIs that out of the Design Lab?
1:33:10SPEAKER- No, I just paid money for that.
1:33:12SPEAKER- Oh, that's one of the stock designs?
1:33:14SPEAKER- It's a stock one.
1:33:15SPEAKER- Ooh.
1:33:16SPEAKER- Look, they've done a good, like, look.
1:33:18SPEAKERThey've done a good job.
1:33:19SPEAKERYeah, the Design Lab thing is really cool too.
1:33:21SPEAKER- Xbox Design Lab is like, almost belongs on this list.
1:33:25SPEAKERIt's so cool.
1:33:26SPEAKER- So that puts us at nine.
1:33:28SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:33:30SPEAKER- I mean, so here's my question.
1:33:32SPEAKERDoes the NES game pad come back on this list
1:33:35SPEAKERbecause it was the thing that started game pads?
1:33:38SPEAKER- See, again, that's one of those things where it's like,
1:33:39SPEAKERokay, historical value versus actual usability
1:33:42SPEAKERin a modern context, or even in the day.
1:33:45SPEAKER- I'm going to point at the N64 controller.
1:33:49SPEAKEROkay, so let's see.
1:33:50SPEAKEROther things that could potentially come back.
1:33:53SPEAKERI mean, I think the GameCube, perfectly cromulent design,
1:33:56SPEAKERvery good, real solid.
1:33:59SPEAKERI'm not going to make an argument for that.
1:34:00SPEAKERIt's a bad idea.
1:34:01SPEAKERMaybe the Wii does come back.
1:34:03SPEAKERLike, if there are any Smash players
1:34:05SPEAKERthat listen to this podcast,
1:34:06SPEAKERthey are no longer listening to this podcast.
1:34:09SPEAKER- Look, I still plug my GameCube controllers
1:34:12SPEAKERinto Play Smash, Brad.
1:34:14SPEAKER- Do you really?
1:34:15SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:34:16SPEAKERI bought the dongle for the Wii U years ago,
1:34:20SPEAKERand it works on the Switch, so.
1:34:21SPEAKER- Wow.
1:34:22SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:34:23SPEAKERForwards compatibility.
1:34:24SPEAKERHey, that's something we haven't talked about,
1:34:25SPEAKERis forward compatibility became a thing
1:34:27SPEAKERat some point along here.
1:34:28SPEAKER- Yeah, kind of only for, well,
1:34:31SPEAKERI started to say only for Microsoft,
1:34:32SPEAKERbut you literally just gave an Nintendo example.
1:34:34SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:34:36SPEAKERYou'd have to buy something for the Nintendo example.
1:34:38SPEAKERWell, no, no, 'cause the GameCube controller
1:34:40SPEAKERis just plugged into the Wii.
1:34:41SPEAKER- Yes.
1:34:42SPEAKER- And then you have to buy the thing for the Wii U, I guess.
1:34:44SPEAKER- Yes.
1:34:45SPEAKERI mean, the Microsoft initiative is so sweeping.
1:34:48SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:34:49SPEAKER- It's like, kind of, I think everything from the Xbox One
1:34:51SPEAKERworks on the series consoles.
1:34:53SPEAKER- I believe so.
1:34:54SPEAKER- Which is, like, stunningly generous
1:34:57SPEAKERby corporate video game standards.
1:35:00SPEAKER- Well, okay, I'm fine having a top nine.
1:35:03SPEAKER- Sure.
1:35:04SPEAKERLet me skim this list one more time
1:35:06SPEAKERand see if there's anything to run.
1:35:08SPEAKERI mean, the lists are inherently meaningless, like.
1:35:11SPEAKER- Look, you can't tell them that, man.
1:35:13SPEAKERThey're listening.
1:35:14SPEAKER- Not to just give up the game here.
1:35:17SPEAKEROh, we've reached the dark center of the list.
1:35:22SPEAKEROkay.
1:35:23SPEAKERYeah, to hell with it.
1:35:24SPEAKERTop nine.
1:35:25SPEAKERThe nine best controllers ever made for video game consoles.
1:35:29SPEAKERFrom the NES to current day.
1:35:31SPEAKER2021 edition.
1:35:33SPEAKER- Okay.
1:35:34SPEAKERI'm gonna say the Wii U gamepad
1:35:36SPEAKERalmost got a pity inclusion to begin with,
1:35:38SPEAKERso that's probably number nine.
1:35:40SPEAKER- Wait, wait, wait.
1:35:42SPEAKERNow, hold on.
1:35:44SPEAKERYou came in, oh yeah, Wii U gamepad.
1:35:47SPEAKERAbsolutely.
1:35:48SPEAKER- Okay.
1:35:49SPEAKER- 100%.
1:35:49SPEAKERSorry, I thought you were talking about,
1:35:50SPEAKERI thought you were trying to squeeze something else in here.
1:35:53SPEAKER- No, no, no, no.
1:35:54SPEAKERJust doing the rank here.
1:35:55SPEAKER- Okay.
1:35:56SPEAKERI'm gonna change this to a,
1:35:57SPEAKERthis is now a numbered list, Brad.
1:35:59SPEAKER- Like, okay.
1:36:00SPEAKERIt's getting highlighted, it's changed.
1:36:02SPEAKER- I'm going to say right now,
1:36:03SPEAKERthe order we have things is at number nine,
1:36:05SPEAKERthe Wii U gamepad.
1:36:07SPEAKER- Yes.
1:36:08SPEAKER- I think as important as the Nintendo 64 controller
1:36:13SPEAKERadding extensibility and an analog stick are,
1:36:17SPEAKERliterally everything else about that
1:36:19SPEAKERmeans it should be toward the bottom of this list.
1:36:21SPEAKER- I agree with you.
1:36:23SPEAKERThe one other thing I'll say it has going for it
1:36:24SPEAKERis the D-pad is quite good.
1:36:25SPEAKERIt's just a shame that your hand never rests on the D-pad
1:36:28SPEAKERbecause of the way that thing is designed.
1:36:30SPEAKER- You know, the one thing I will say about it though,
1:36:32SPEAKERis that they embrace some real weird stuff
1:36:34SPEAKERin the games they made.
1:36:35SPEAKER'Cause I don't know if you've ever played
1:36:36SPEAKERthe two analog stick control mode for Goldeneye.
1:36:41SPEAKER- No, but I've heard a legend of it.
1:36:43SPEAKER- It was incredible.
1:36:44SPEAKER- That's pretty good.
1:36:45SPEAKER- It was like playing with a mouse and keyboard,
1:36:47SPEAKERexcept for you had analog control over speed too.
1:36:49SPEAKER- That's the kind of high concept weird I can get behind.
1:36:52SPEAKERI just wish the actual controller was better.
1:36:55SPEAKERSo number eight, the N64 three-prong.
1:37:00SPEAKER- Oh, you know what?
1:37:01SPEAKERI forgot the Wavebird was already on here.
1:37:02SPEAKERWe don't need GameCube.
1:37:04SPEAKER- That's true.
1:37:05SPEAKERFirst wireless.
1:37:07SPEAKERI feel like Wavebird's kind of near the top.
1:37:08SPEAKERWireless is important.
1:37:09SPEAKER- Yeah, that's like the, yeah, sure.
1:37:13SPEAKER- Nearer the top.
1:37:14SPEAKERWhere do you think the Saturn lands?
1:37:16SPEAKER- I mean, part of this is just having
1:37:17SPEAKERno real nostalgic affinity for it myself,
1:37:19SPEAKERbut I feel like mid to low.
1:37:22SPEAKERIt is, again, it really is just a very good version
1:37:26SPEAKERof a very old tried and true design.
1:37:28SPEAKER- Yeah, I can get behind that.
1:37:30SPEAKERSo below the N64 or above the N64 is the question.
1:37:36SPEAKER- I'm gonna say yes.
1:37:37SPEAKER- Hold on, but that was not a yes or no question.
1:37:40SPEAKEROh wait, sorry.
1:37:41SPEAKERI was too busy putting it on the list
1:37:43SPEAKERwhere I think it should go.
1:37:44SPEAKERYou're putting it number--
1:37:45SPEAKER- It goes below the Nintendo 64.
1:37:47SPEAKER- Okay, I think that's probably right.
1:37:49SPEAKERI think--
1:37:50SPEAKER- Because much like with most everything
1:37:52SPEAKERabout the Saturn, they did absolutely nothing to innovate.
1:37:55SPEAKERThey literally just made the Genesis six button
1:37:56SPEAKERcontroller again.
1:37:57SPEAKER- Panzer Dragoon--
1:37:58SPEAKER- With shoulder buttons.
1:38:01SPEAKER- I'm gonna move the dual sense down.
1:38:03SPEAKERI think it should be above the Wavebird,
1:38:06SPEAKERbut below the 360.
1:38:09SPEAKER- I completely forgot.
1:38:11SPEAKERI was just reminded that the Saturn actually did end up
1:38:13SPEAKERgetting an analog pad eventually.
1:38:16SPEAKER- Wow, really?
1:38:16SPEAKER- Yeah, I had completely forgotten.
1:38:18SPEAKERIt's called the 3D--
1:38:19SPEAKER- Oh, right.
1:38:21SPEAKER- 3D control pad, I think is the name of it.
1:38:23SPEAKER- Wasn't that right at the end though?
1:38:25SPEAKER- It was, I think it was later on.
1:38:26SPEAKER'Cause just like everything else,
1:38:28SPEAKERSega was just playing catch up constantly at that point.
1:38:31SPEAKERAlso, it is like a very primitive version
1:38:34SPEAKERof the Dreamcast controllers, so fair.
1:38:37SPEAKER- Ugh, okay, so--
1:38:38SPEAKER- Poor Saturn.
1:38:39SPEAKER- Let's do some interbrand fighting here.
1:38:45SPEAKERXbox series and Xbox 360, which is high, which is low.
1:38:48SPEAKER- I mean like just objectively side by side in today's,
1:38:52SPEAKERby today's terms, like series controller
1:38:54SPEAKERbeats the pants off the 360.
1:38:56SPEAKER- Well, of course, that goes without saying though.
1:38:58SPEAKER- But the 360 controller was like
1:38:59SPEAKERso historically significant.
1:39:01SPEAKER- It brought wireless, it brought bad D-pads to PC,
1:39:05SPEAKERit brought PC gaming to the masses, like game pads.
1:39:08SPEAKER- Good analog triggers.
1:39:09SPEAKER- Good analog triggers.
1:39:11SPEAKER- Good bumpers, kind of good sticks, good everything.
1:39:14SPEAKER- I thought the left bumper failed
1:39:15SPEAKERfor almost everybody eventually though.
1:39:16SPEAKER- Wait, really?
1:39:17SPEAKER- Oh, I never--
1:39:18SPEAKER- I have several Xbox controllers with bad left bumpers.
1:39:20SPEAKER- Interesting, I never ran into that.
1:39:22SPEAKER- Oh.
1:39:24SPEAKER- Man.
1:39:25SPEAKER- I'm inclined, like my initial reaction
1:39:29SPEAKERis that the series should be high.
1:39:31SPEAKER- Yeah, I'm kind of with you.
1:39:32SPEAKER- But I also think the importance of wireless
1:39:35SPEAKERand the PC gaming thing maybe means
1:39:38SPEAKERthat that's a bad first take.
1:39:42SPEAKER- Yeah, I don't know.
1:39:43SPEAKERI mean, honestly, I think it's like a testament
1:39:44SPEAKERto how well or how improved the series controllers are
1:39:49SPEAKERthat there's even a conversation here, right?
1:39:51SPEAKER- I mean, that's true.
1:39:52SPEAKER- Like Microsoft has really gone above and beyond
1:39:54SPEAKERon like, again, the accessibility, the software side
1:39:56SPEAKERof what you can do with that controller.
1:39:58SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:39:59SPEAKER- And then the dual purpose stuff,
1:40:01SPEAKERlike the, you know, use it on a PC, use it on your Xbox.
1:40:04SPEAKER- So I have a confession. - Seamlessly, yes.
1:40:06SPEAKER- I still use Xbox 360 controllers
1:40:08SPEAKERon all of the Steam links in the house.
1:40:09SPEAKER- That I cannot get behind.
1:40:11SPEAKER- Part of it is that I just have a fuckload
1:40:13SPEAKERof Xbox 360 controllers laying around.
1:40:16SPEAKERAnd part of it is that Valve was pissed at Microsoft
1:40:19SPEAKERwhen the Xbox One wireless dongles came out
1:40:23SPEAKERand all of my first gen Xbox One controllers,
1:40:26SPEAKERthe dongles don't work with the Steam link.
1:40:28SPEAKER- Really? - Yeah.
1:40:30SPEAKER- Huh.
1:40:31SPEAKER- So yeah, there's baggage is what I'm saying.
1:40:36SPEAKERI did do Dual Shocks for a while.
1:40:38SPEAKER- Yeah, you could just use Bluetooth controllers
1:40:39SPEAKERwith it, right?
1:40:40SPEAKER- Yeah, but keeping Dual Shocks charged on something
1:40:43SPEAKERyou use like twice a month is hard.
1:40:48SPEAKEROkay, okay, well, let's table this one for the moment then.
1:40:51SPEAKERWhat do you think about the Dual Shock 4 versus Dual Sense?
1:40:55SPEAKER- Dude, I almost feel like I need to get my Dual Sense
1:40:58SPEAKERand like hold it, like cradle it to decide
1:41:00SPEAKERif I actually want to say this or not,
1:41:02SPEAKERbut I'm almost inclined to put the Dual Shock 4
1:41:05SPEAKERfor the Dual Sense at this point.
1:41:06SPEAKER- I'm holding them both right now.
1:41:07SPEAKERThe Dual Sense is weighty in a way that I like.
1:41:09SPEAKER- It does have a really good solid feel.
1:41:11SPEAKERIt also just feels like the parts of it are fit together
1:41:14SPEAKERin a really nice solid way.
1:41:16SPEAKER- I really like this transparent one
1:41:17SPEAKER'cause you can see the weight spinning.
1:41:18SPEAKER- Oh, I do, I hate transparent electronics.
1:41:21SPEAKER- Really?
1:41:22SPEAKER- What is this, a fucking late 90s iMac?
1:41:23SPEAKERCome on.
1:41:24SPEAKER- And I love it.
1:41:25SPEAKEROkay, so here's the knock against the Dual Sense
1:41:27SPEAKERfrom where I sit is that the V1 controller was actively bad.
1:41:30SPEAKERThe battery was bad, didn't last very long.
1:41:33SPEAKER- Dual Sense?
1:41:33SPEAKER- Dual Sense, sorry, the V1 Dual Shock 4 was bad.
1:41:38SPEAKERThe battery life was bad, like the only ones
1:41:40SPEAKERthat are any better are the ones with the stripe.
1:41:42SPEAKER- Does the battery life actually get better?
1:41:44SPEAKERI don't remember.
1:41:45SPEAKER- Yeah, the battery life's way better on the V2 one.
1:41:46SPEAKER- I didn't ever notice it being that much better.
1:41:48SPEAKER- Well, I think you have a weird relationship
1:41:49SPEAKERwith the controllers 'cause you probably spend more time
1:41:51SPEAKERusing them than most people.
1:41:53SPEAKER- Yeah, but I also have like eight Dual Shocks,
1:41:54SPEAKERDual Shock 4s, or seven, or something.
1:41:58SPEAKERI had a lot of them, so I never used any one of them enough
1:42:00SPEAKERto really tell.
1:42:01SPEAKER- Oh, so I had one launch one
1:42:03SPEAKERthat came with my first PlayStation
1:42:06SPEAKERthat got worn out, basically.
1:42:07SPEAKER- I see.
1:42:08SPEAKER- And then I replaced it with one of these V2 ones
1:42:09SPEAKERthat was like, "This is an infinitely better controller."
1:42:11SPEAKER- Yeah, you're not wrong, it was definitely better.
1:42:13SPEAKER- It even felt sturdier in your hand.
1:42:16SPEAKER- But I think even just the base design
1:42:17SPEAKERof the Dual Shock 4 is very good.
1:42:19SPEAKER- That's true.
1:42:20SPEAKER- I really liked the way that thing felt.
1:42:23SPEAKERAnd the headphone jack, again,
1:42:25SPEAKERI cannot overstate how much I appreciated that.
1:42:28SPEAKER- Headphone jack is a good call out.
1:42:30SPEAKERI'm okay with that, I'm okay, especially if we can,
1:42:33SPEAKERyeah, I'm okay with putting that up.
1:42:34SPEAKER- It's because the Dual Sense has proved
1:42:36SPEAKERto be somewhat unreliable and the trigger features
1:42:39SPEAKERare maybe not what we thought they were cracked up to be
1:42:42SPEAKERin a lot of cases.
1:42:43SPEAKER- I like the Dual Sense trigger features.
1:42:45SPEAKERI think that's just, I think that they fixed that
1:42:48SPEAKERin software for people who onboarded later.
1:42:51SPEAKER- Probably, yeah.
1:42:53SPEAKERI mean, again, the demo moment at the beginning
1:42:55SPEAKERof Aster's Playroom was like a top 10
1:42:57SPEAKERall-time controller moment for me.
1:42:58SPEAKERIt's just like, holy shit.
1:43:00SPEAKER- It's like five different pieces of amazing technology
1:43:04SPEAKERlayered together with some really good software.
1:43:06SPEAKER- But it is that hardware gimmick problem
1:43:08SPEAKERof no practical application has ever actually replicated
1:43:11SPEAKERthat artificial showcase of it.
1:43:13SPEAKER- Ratchet and Clank uses it real well.
1:43:15SPEAKER- It's not bad, it's not bad, sure.
1:43:17SPEAKERBut nothing has just like gone like, holy shit,
1:43:20SPEAKERthis is incredible the way that that controller demo did.
1:43:23SPEAKER- I mean, like the fact that every single gun
1:43:26SPEAKERin Ratchet and Clank, and even some of like the upgrades
1:43:28SPEAKERchange the haptics is really cool.
1:43:30SPEAKERAnd like the fact that you don't have to,
1:43:32SPEAKERyou can just be focused on the crosshair
1:43:34SPEAKERand know exactly what you have without--
1:43:36SPEAKER- Yeah, and like putting actual firing mode distinctions
1:43:38SPEAKERon just the way you pull the trigger is pretty neat.
1:43:41SPEAKERLike you're not wrong.
1:43:47SPEAKER- Okay, so the list right now is number nine,
1:43:50SPEAKERthe Wii U game pad.
1:43:51SPEAKERNumber eight, the Saturn game pad.
1:43:53SPEAKERNumber seven, the Nintendo 64 three-prong controller.
1:43:56SPEAKERNumber six, the Xbox series controller.
1:43:58SPEAKERNumber five, the DualSense.
1:44:00SPEAKERWe're into the area where things
1:44:01SPEAKERaren't really ordered right now.
1:44:03SPEAKERNumber four, the Wavebird.
1:44:04SPEAKERNumber three, the DualShock 4.
1:44:05SPEAKERNumber two, the Xbox 360.
1:44:07SPEAKERAnd number one, the SNES game pad.
1:44:10SPEAKER- I have bad news for you.
1:44:11SPEAKERI'm about to do the thing.
1:44:13SPEAKER- Wow.
1:44:14SPEAKER- What if this is the list?
1:44:15SPEAKER- Hold on, hold on.
1:44:16SPEAKERI'm gonna do another thing.
1:44:19SPEAKERYou know what?
1:44:20SPEAKERI think the American Super Nintendo game pad,
1:44:24SPEAKERI'm gonna do the thing.
1:44:25SPEAKERI'm gonna do the thing to the thing.
1:44:27SPEAKERI think that it is bad compared to the Japanese version
1:44:30SPEAKERof the game pad.
1:44:31SPEAKER- But first of all, they're not different enough
1:44:33SPEAKERto say one is great and one is bad.
1:44:35SPEAKERConcave and convex buttons, four colors versus gray and blue.
1:44:39SPEAKER- Look, I love the Super Famicom color scheme.
1:44:41SPEAKERLike you don't understand.
1:44:43SPEAKERThat gray background with those four colors on top of it
1:44:45SPEAKERis imprinted in my child mind.
1:44:47SPEAKERLike the first time I ever saw Nintendo Powers
1:44:49SPEAKERimport coverage of the Super Famicom,
1:44:51SPEAKERit's like seared into my mind as like,
1:44:54SPEAKERoh my God, I am glimpsing the future right now.
1:44:56SPEAKERHoly shit.
1:44:57SPEAKERAnd like, I will grant you that the Nintendo,
1:45:00SPEAKERI mean, I'm sorry, the American Super Nintendo
1:45:02SPEAKERlike color scheme, console design, all that stuff
1:45:05SPEAKERis inferior.
1:45:06SPEAKERI think the convex and concave button contrast
1:45:09SPEAKERis actually pretty good though.
1:45:12SPEAKERI think it's pretty good.
1:45:14SPEAKER- I don't know about the Super NES is the number one.
1:45:17SPEAKER- I mean, look, it's the nostalgia talking.
1:45:19SPEAKEROkay, it's my favorite console.
1:45:21SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, it's like a top two for me.
1:45:24SPEAKER- I mean, it took that, you know, gangly,
1:45:27SPEAKERlike sharp cornered NES and very simplistic NES controller
1:45:31SPEAKERand made it like very good, right?
1:45:33SPEAKERLike it's rounded, it's more ergonomic.
1:45:36SPEAKERIt's got way more functionality.
1:45:37SPEAKERIt's got twice the face buttons and two shoulder buttons.
1:45:40SPEAKER- I mean, some would argue that that maybe made it worse
1:45:42SPEAKER'cause it made it less accessible to the larger audience.
1:45:46SPEAKER- I mean, the range of stuff they did with it,
1:45:47SPEAKERlike two buttons was not enough.
1:45:50SPEAKER- Fair.
1:45:51SPEAKER- Four buttons arguably also not enough.
1:45:54SPEAKER- But you had the bumpers too.
1:45:56SPEAKER- Right, that's what I mean.
1:45:56SPEAKERIt had six possible buttons and also the D-pad, very good.
1:46:01SPEAKERVery good D-pad.
1:46:03SPEAKERI mean, look, I get it.
1:46:06SPEAKER- I kinda wanna put the DualShock at the top of the list.
1:46:08SPEAKER- DualShock 4?
1:46:09SPEAKER- Well, no, that's a bad call.
1:46:11SPEAKER- Man, I don't know.
1:46:12SPEAKER- Maybe the 360 should be at the top of the list.
1:46:14SPEAKER- I don't know, like I'm looking at this list
1:46:16SPEAKERand like nothing is jumping out at me
1:46:17SPEAKERas like the unequivocal all-time best controller.
1:46:20SPEAKER- Maybe we gave ourselves an impossible task, Brad.
1:46:23SPEAKER- It's entirely possible.
1:46:25SPEAKER- There's an episode title too.
1:46:29SPEAKER- I mean, we could just move that wave bird up.
1:46:34SPEAKEROkay, you know, go ahead.
1:46:37SPEAKER- I don't know that I have an argument here, honestly.
1:46:40SPEAKER- I think I can, okay.
1:46:42SPEAKERI can feel good about either Xbox 360
1:46:45SPEAKERor Super NES at the top of the list.
1:46:50SPEAKERI can even maybe feel good about the DualShock,
1:46:51SPEAKERalthough the Rev 1 is rough.
1:46:54SPEAKER- I might feel good about the Xbox 360 sitting at the top.
1:46:59SPEAKER- It was like, for real,
1:47:01SPEAKERthat was the one that opened up shooters for consoles for me.
1:47:04SPEAKER- Yeah, like what it did to define
1:47:06SPEAKERwhat the modern controller is.
1:47:08SPEAKER- Like that, yeah, that's the COD Modern Warfare controller.
1:47:12SPEAKERLike it's the Halo 2 controller for all intents and purposes.
1:47:18SPEAKER- Like it's standardized pack-in wireless controllers.
1:47:21SPEAKERIt's standardized like seamless PC support for controllers.
1:47:25SPEAKER- Removable batteries.
1:47:27SPEAKER- Eventually they had a headphone port.
1:47:29SPEAKER- Yes, yes.
1:47:30SPEAKER- You could get that stupid keyboard for it.
1:47:32SPEAKER- And honestly, to this day, I mean, like holding one,
1:47:34SPEAKERit feels a little dated to me at this point,
1:47:36SPEAKERlike set the D-pad aside, just the general kind of profile.
1:47:40SPEAKERThe hand profile of it feels a little bit like,
1:47:43SPEAKERit's not as elegant as the successor Xbox controllers,
1:47:46SPEAKERbut other than that. - But in terms of impact?
1:47:48SPEAKER- Other than that, what I mean though is other than,
1:47:51SPEAKERother than it feeling a little dated
1:47:52SPEAKERand the D-pad being bad,
1:47:53SPEAKERlike it still is a totally adequate modern controller.
1:47:56SPEAKER- I use it all the time, I literally use it all the time.
1:47:59SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:48:01SPEAKERI'm, yeah.
1:48:03SPEAKERThat's probably the right actual choice.
1:48:06SPEAKERLike it's kinda like that perfect mix
1:48:08SPEAKERof like historically influential and also still viable today.
1:48:11SPEAKER- Yeah, like it's not, it's stood the test of time, man.
1:48:14SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:48:15SPEAKER- It's a controller, like, but realistically speaking,
1:48:19SPEAKERI use an 8BitDo knockoff of this NES controller
1:48:22SPEAKERall the time too, 'cause that's what I use
1:48:24SPEAKERto play most of the stuff on my Mr.
1:48:25SPEAKER- Totally, totally, like for retro games,
1:48:27SPEAKERa Super Nintendo style controller is it.
1:48:30SPEAKERYeah, I think I'm good at 360 at the top.
1:48:33SPEAKER- I think I like this list.
1:48:34SPEAKER- Like honestly, I mean, that console just did so much
1:48:38SPEAKERto define what modern consoles are top to bottom.
1:48:40SPEAKER- Well, and it lasted a long time too.
1:48:42SPEAKER- There's also, yeah, there's also that.
1:48:43SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:48:45SPEAKER- All right, Xbox 360 at number one,
1:48:47SPEAKERSuper Nintendo at number two,
1:48:50SPEAKERDualShock 4, Wavebird, DualSense, Xbox Series.
1:48:55SPEAKER- Hmm, I might move the Nintendo 64 up another spot.
1:49:00SPEAKER- What, what?
1:49:03SPEAKER- Over, okay, now the Nintendo 64 is number six.
1:49:05SPEAKERI don't like the controller, but it-
1:49:09SPEAKER- It did, it did.
1:49:10SPEAKER- It had a pretty strong influence.
1:49:13SPEAKER- What if Nintendo came out with their next console
1:49:16SPEAKERand they're like, look, we're bringing three prongs back.
1:49:19SPEAKERWhat if it was four prongs, two analog prongs,
1:49:20SPEAKERone D-pad prong, and then button prong?
1:49:23SPEAKER- Three prongs bad, two prongs good, okay.
1:49:25SPEAKER- Four prongs real good.
1:49:28SPEAKER- We've been over this, we've covered this ground.
1:49:30SPEAKERWe know exactly how many prongs a controller should have.
1:49:32SPEAKER- Can I make it- - It's not three.
1:49:34SPEAKER- Can I give you an argument in favor of the Xbox Series?
1:49:37SPEAKER- Ah, sure.
1:49:38SPEAKER- You can set it up in co-pilot mode
1:49:41SPEAKERso that one person uses one controller
1:49:43SPEAKERto control one half of the control pad,
1:49:45SPEAKERand one person uses the other half of the controller
1:49:47SPEAKERto control the other half of the control pad
1:49:49SPEAKERin the same game without the game having to support it.
1:49:51SPEAKER- That's pretty damn cool.
1:49:52SPEAKERI did not know about that.
1:49:54SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:49:55SPEAKERLike if I was doing stuff in a studio with people a lot
1:49:58SPEAKERwhere I was sitting in the same room with people,
1:49:59SPEAKERthat would be a really good, stupid way to play games.
1:50:02SPEAKER- Are you saying literally like player one
1:50:04SPEAKERgets the left half of the controller,
1:50:05SPEAKERplayer two on another controller gets the right half?
1:50:08SPEAKER- Yep.
1:50:09SPEAKER- Man.
1:50:10SPEAKERYeah, that's like an ongoing video feature right there.
1:50:14SPEAKER- It's an accessibility feature by design,
1:50:16SPEAKERbut like you can, like it is awesome.
1:50:20SPEAKER- That's pretty awesome.
1:50:21SPEAKERIt's great that it exists for accessibility reasons.
1:50:23SPEAKERIt's I think rad that you,
1:50:25SPEAKER'cause it also lets you use,
1:50:26SPEAKERlike if you're using accessibility controller,
1:50:27SPEAKERthen you do like foot pads or something on one half.
1:50:31SPEAKERThat's why it's designed that.
1:50:32SPEAKERThat's why it's set up that way.
1:50:33SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, honestly,
1:50:34SPEAKERI really don't think you can say enough good things
1:50:36SPEAKERabout what modern Microsoft is doing
1:50:38SPEAKERwith all of its controller customization
1:50:40SPEAKERand kind of software level tweaks for stuff like that.
1:50:44SPEAKERWhat's happening here?
1:50:46SPEAKEROkay, sure.
1:50:47SPEAKER- Yeah, an honorary number 10 to the Xbox
1:50:51SPEAKERaccessibility controller.
1:50:52SPEAKER- That's the official name of that thing?
1:50:54SPEAKER- No, that is not the official name, hold on.
1:50:56SPEAKER- Adaptive controller.
1:50:57SPEAKER- Adaptive controller.
1:50:58SPEAKER- Yes, the Xbox adaptive controller, that's it.
1:51:00SPEAKER- I don't know if it should be a number 10.
1:51:01SPEAKERI think that maybe should go higher, but.
1:51:03SPEAKER- We were kind of focusing on like core.
1:51:06SPEAKER- It's a first party controller.
1:51:07SPEAKERIt's every bit as core as the NES Max.
1:51:09SPEAKER- You're not wrong.
1:51:10SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:51:11SPEAKER- You're not wrong.
1:51:12SPEAKERYeah, let's put that on there.
1:51:13SPEAKER- Okay.
1:51:14SPEAKER- That thing is very cool.
1:51:15SPEAKER- Number 10, Xbox adaptive controller,
1:51:17SPEAKERwhich we forgot until the very last minute.
1:51:19SPEAKERSorry about that.
1:51:21SPEAKERWii U game pad number nine, eight is the Saturn
1:51:24SPEAKERsix button pad.
1:51:25SPEAKERNumber seven is the Xbox series controller.
1:51:28SPEAKERNumber six is the Nintendo 64.
1:51:29SPEAKERNumber five is the dual sense.
1:51:30SPEAKERNumber four is the Nintendo wave bird.
1:51:33SPEAKERNumber three is the Sony dual shock four.
1:51:35SPEAKERNumber two is the super Nintendo
1:51:37SPEAKERentertainment system controller.
1:51:39SPEAKERAnd number one is the Xbox 360 game pad.
1:51:43SPEAKER- That's right.
1:51:44SPEAKER- I think that's a good list, Brad.
1:51:46SPEAKER- Yeah, I can get behind this.
1:51:49SPEAKERAlso, I'm astonished that we managed to rank
1:51:52SPEAKERsomething in one episode.
1:51:53SPEAKER- I mean, it's a double length episode.
1:51:55SPEAKER- Even though it's basically the length of two episodes.
1:51:56SPEAKER- We could just cut it in half
1:51:57SPEAKERand call it next week's episode done.
1:51:59SPEAKER- Hmm.
1:52:00SPEAKER- Tempting.
1:52:01SPEAKER- Hmm.
1:52:03SPEAKER- Let's do the bit of the show.
1:52:07SPEAKER- Yes.
1:52:08SPEAKER- Now, where we thank our patrons.
1:52:10SPEAKER- Thank you, patrons.
1:52:11SPEAKER- Thank you, patrons.
1:52:12SPEAKER- Thank you.
1:52:13SPEAKERThank you if you've stuck it out this long.
1:52:17SPEAKER- As always, Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod
1:52:21SPEAKERis a 100% listener supported show,
1:52:23SPEAKERso we really appreciate your support.
1:52:25SPEAKERThank you, as always, to our executive producer,
1:52:29SPEAKERto your patrons, including Paddle Creek Games,
1:52:31SPEAKERmakers of Fractured Veil, Andrew Slosky,
1:52:33SPEAKERThe Bunny Fiend, Jacob Chappell, Joel Krauska,
1:52:35SPEAKERTwinkle Twinkie, David Allen, and James Kamik.
1:52:37SPEAKERThank you all so much.
1:52:40SPEAKERBrad, we're coming up.
1:52:41SPEAKERWe're halfway through the month.
1:52:42SPEAKERIt means it's time for people to submit Q's and A's
1:52:44SPEAKERjust so they're there and ready to go.
1:52:46SPEAKER- Yes, wow, preemptive.
1:52:49SPEAKER- I know.
1:52:49SPEAKER- Dropping a reminder halfway through the month,
1:52:51SPEAKERtwo weeks of notice.
1:52:53SPEAKER- Well, I made a note for myself to remind,
1:52:55SPEAKERand it's stuck on my monitor, so I won't forget.
1:52:59SPEAKERBut yeah, you can join the Patreon.
1:53:02SPEAKERIt's at patreon.com/techpod.
1:53:04SPEAKERFor two bucks a month, you get access
1:53:06SPEAKERto the fabulous Tech Pod Discord,
1:53:07SPEAKERwhich is full of smart, beautiful people
1:53:10SPEAKERwhere they talk about stuff like this.
1:53:11SPEAKERI'm sure that people won't have any thoughts at all
1:53:13SPEAKERabout our process of winnowing these down
1:53:16SPEAKERand/or ranking them.
1:53:17SPEAKER- Certainly not.
1:53:19SPEAKER- And there probably won't be a lively conversation
1:53:21SPEAKERthat goes on, possibly for months, about this.
1:53:26SPEAKERBut yeah, you can get access to that again
1:53:28SPEAKERat patreon.com/techpod, or if you don't wanna chuck in
1:53:32SPEAKERa couple bucks, then tell your friends about the show.
1:53:34SPEAKERThat's how people find us.
1:53:35SPEAKER- I can't wait for the militant WeMotion+ faction
1:53:38SPEAKERto mobilize.
1:53:40SPEAKER- Look, here's what we say.
1:53:42SPEAKERName a game.
1:53:44SPEAKERName the game.
1:53:46SPEAKERName the game that makes the WeMotion+.
1:53:48SPEAKER- Yeah, sure.
1:53:49SPEAKER- We're the inclusion on a hallowed list.
1:53:52SPEAKER- I cannot.
1:53:52SPEAKER- I can't.
1:53:54SPEAKERThere's no Donkey Kong 64 for the WeMotion+.
1:53:56SPEAKER- That's right, maybe it doesn't exist.
1:53:59SPEAKER- Brad, this has been fun.
1:54:00SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:54:00SPEAKER- We'll have to do another ranking of
1:54:02SPEAKERat some point in the future.
1:54:03SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:54:04SPEAKER- But I guess it's time for us to say goodbye,
1:54:06SPEAKERand we'll see everyone next week.
1:54:10SPEAKER(upbeat music)