00:00SPEAKER"Do you know how good I've gotten at opening our beeper?
00:02SPEAKERLike we had like three seconds before the beep
00:04SPEAKERand I didn't even have the page open
00:06SPEAKERand I still got in under the gun."
00:07SPEAKER- Look, I didn't want to bring this up in public,
00:09SPEAKERbut I've often felt like your beeping was inadequate, Brad.
00:12SPEAKERAnd I'm glad that you're finally getting your game in.
00:15SPEAKERYou're getting the beeper ready to go.
00:18SPEAKERLike we're not having those big weights.
00:20SPEAKERI feel like it's all coming around.
00:21SPEAKERIt's all kind of coming up, Brad, these days.
00:23SPEAKER- I'm the fastest draw in the West, man.
00:25SPEAKER- Oh man.
00:26SPEAKER- Fastest beep in the West.
00:27SPEAKER- I can't believe you didn't know about control K.
00:29SPEAKER- Dude, hey, always strive to be increasing your knowledge
00:34SPEAKERabout the world, that's my life philosophy.
00:37SPEAKERIf you ever lose the capacity for childlike wonder
00:40SPEAKERat all that is, like what's the point
00:43SPEAKERof even living anymore?
00:45SPEAKERSo, hey, I am extremely excited
00:47SPEAKERthat I have learned about control K on this day.
00:49SPEAKER- I had a conversation with an engineer at Whiskey Media
00:52SPEAKERin 2010 when I started working there
00:56SPEAKERthat was like, yo, what's your linking keyboard shortcut?
00:59SPEAKERThey're like, why do you need a linking keyboard shortcut?
01:00SPEAKERI was like, well, every single time I write a post,
01:03SPEAKERI put about 10 links into it.
01:04SPEAKERAnd if I have to go up and click the thing manually,
01:06SPEAKERI'm gonna come over with a fork and jab somebody's eye out
01:08SPEAKERafter about two weeks. - Oh my God.
01:10SPEAKERDude, I've been clicking manually my whole life.
01:14SPEAKER- So control K is it.
01:15SPEAKERThat's the universe.
01:16SPEAKERWell, it's not all universal,
01:17SPEAKERbut it's not like copy paste undo universal,
01:22SPEAKERbut it's up there.
01:22SPEAKER- It's up there.
01:23SPEAKERI mean, to be clear,
01:24SPEAKERwe're talking about linkifying a link itself,
01:26SPEAKERlike a link where the text is also the link, right?
01:28SPEAKERLike this does not work on a piece of text
01:30SPEAKERthat you want to hyperlink that is not-
01:32SPEAKER- Oh yes.
01:33SPEAKER- Does it?
01:34SPEAKER- So if you highlight a piece of text-
01:36SPEAKER- Any control K aware editor
01:37SPEAKERwill pop up a way for you to punch the link in?
01:40SPEAKER- This is where it's not universal.
01:41SPEAKERIf it's a good editor,
01:42SPEAKERyou highlight a piece of normal text that is not a hyperlink.
01:45SPEAKERIt's not a URI, a universal resource indicator
01:48SPEAKERor whatever the hell URI stands for now.
01:50SPEAKER'Cause I feel like it changes every once in a while.
01:52SPEAKERYour control K and then you can like paste a link in
01:55SPEAKERor type a link in, whatever.
01:56SPEAKERBut if it's a good one, it's context aware.
01:59SPEAKERAnd when you highlight a URI and hit control K,
02:02SPEAKERit will automatically make that clickable.
02:04SPEAKER- So exciting, you don't understand.
02:06SPEAKER- This is like, let's see,
02:07SPEAKERwhat are some other banger keyboard shortcuts?
02:09SPEAKERWe made a video series on these attested back in the day.
02:11SPEAKER- Oh wow, I have to look that up.
02:12SPEAKER'Cause apparently I've been very out of the loop
02:14SPEAKERfor some time, but another one-
02:16SPEAKER- Windows plus L?
02:17SPEAKER- Windows, oh, for-
02:19SPEAKER- Lock your screen, don't do that while we're recording.
02:21SPEAKER- That's probably bad, yes.
02:23SPEAKERWell, I mean, if we're getting into Windows
02:24SPEAKERkeyboard shortcuts, like all bets are off.
02:26SPEAKERThere are a zillion of those,
02:27SPEAKERbut I was gonna say like another text editor,
02:29SPEAKERone that I just learned about.
02:30SPEAKERI don't know how universal this is.
02:32SPEAKERControl shift V to paste without any formatting.
02:35SPEAKER- Yeah, that's a good one,
02:36SPEAKERbut that is definitely not universal.
02:37SPEAKER'Cause I think Google docs honors that.
02:39SPEAKERWell, I guess it does now, huh?
02:41SPEAKER- Google docs is where I learned about it.
02:42SPEAKERSo it must be somewhat widespread.
02:45SPEAKER- I, you know, I'm gonna go one layer deeper.
02:48SPEAKERI installed the new version of power toys
02:51SPEAKERusing WinGet the other day.
02:53SPEAKER- Man, I gotta try WinGet.
02:54SPEAKER- And there's a thing in there now called power toys run
03:00SPEAKERthat basically works like the spotlight,
03:02SPEAKERyou know, like the command space bar launcher from OS 10.
03:07SPEAKERIt's so freaking good.
03:08SPEAKER- Well, yes, but I tried it a while back.
03:11SPEAKERIt is great.
03:12SPEAKERIt is the pop-up spotlight from OS 10, Mac OS.
03:15SPEAKERIt's also Alfred.
03:16SPEAKERDid you ever use Alfred?
03:17SPEAKER- Yeah, Alfred was good until Apple Sherlocked it.
03:20SPEAKER- Is that, oh dude, is that the word?
03:22SPEAKER- Sherlocking is what happens when Apple takes a feature
03:24SPEAKERthat existed previously as a standalone application
03:27SPEAKERand turns it into an OS level system feature.
03:29SPEAKER- Is it Apple specifically, or could anybody Sherlock?
03:31SPEAKER- I think anybody can Sherlock at this point,
03:33SPEAKERbut I feel like it's a pretty unique to the Apple ecosystem.
03:38SPEAKERMicrosoft's move is usually to take functionality away,
03:40SPEAKERnot to add new functionality.
03:42SPEAKER- That is fair.
03:43SPEAKERI mean, they did it with nightlight though.
03:44SPEAKERIt's like flux has gotten Sherlocked
03:46SPEAKERalmost out of existence by, what is it?
03:48SPEAKERNight shift on in OS 10 and night light in windows.
03:51SPEAKER- Yeah, I think so.
03:52SPEAKERFlux, I can sync my Hue lights to my screen though.
03:56SPEAKER- Okay.
03:57SPEAKER- Let me tell you, if you want to make a bunch of people
03:58SPEAKERreally angry when you're streaming, turn flux on.
04:01SPEAKER- Sometimes I play games with nightlight on
04:03SPEAKERand I don't care because it is very pleasant.
04:06SPEAKER- I like, there's a lot of data that says nightlight
04:09SPEAKERdoes absolutely nothing like that warming,
04:11SPEAKERyou're taking your blue out with screen filters or whatever.
04:14SPEAKERI don't care.
04:15SPEAKER- We may talk about that later this year,
04:17SPEAKERbut yes, you're right.
04:18SPEAKER- It's a nighttime.
04:19SPEAKERIt feels like night.
04:20SPEAKERI like to turn it down at the nighttime.
04:22SPEAKER- I ever like, what is your,
04:23SPEAKERdo you have it on in the morning?
04:24SPEAKERLike I have like probably a minimum of an hour in me
04:29SPEAKERwith nightlight on before I can turn it off.
04:31SPEAKERLike I cannot look at a blue,
04:32SPEAKERa fully blue-ified screen first thing in the morning.
04:35SPEAKER- Oh, I go full eye blaster.
04:36SPEAKERI got the ring light up here.
04:38SPEAKERThe ring light's always set to warm though.
04:40SPEAKERCause I got to, you know,
04:40SPEAKERI got to make myself not look so pasty.
04:42SPEAKER- Well, welcome to our symposium on keyboard shortcuts
04:45SPEAKERand monitor color shift habits.
04:49SPEAKERSure. Locking in the command line.
04:50SPEAKER- Yes.
04:51SPEAKER- And WinGet.
04:52SPEAKER- Oh, WinGet. Yeah.
04:53SPEAKERWell, this cold open is going to get too long,
04:55SPEAKERbut I want to try WinGet, but it's such a pain to install.
04:57SPEAKERLike if there's no, there's no easy,
04:59SPEAKERjust click this button and get WinGet.
05:00SPEAKERLike right now you have to opt into some preview flight.
05:03SPEAKER- No!
05:04SPEAKER- I forget what it is or there are multiple ways to get it,
05:06SPEAKERbut none of them are, it's not done.
05:08SPEAKERSo like.
05:09SPEAKER- You can WinGet yourself right over to the Microsoft store
05:11SPEAKERand install a thing that has WinGet in it.
05:13SPEAKER- That's what I mean though.
05:14SPEAKERIt's not just WinGet, it's some big preview package.
05:17SPEAKER- It's not that big.
05:18SPEAKERIt's just WinGet and Terminal.
05:20SPEAKERAnd maybe some other crap that I didn't care to read.
05:22SPEAKERLook, I didn't read the fact, Brad, don't yell at me.
05:24SPEAKER- Dude, I typed WinGet into the Microsoft store
05:26SPEAKERand nothing came up.
05:27SPEAKER- No, you got it.
05:28SPEAKERIt's called the app install package or something like that.
05:30SPEAKER- I'm not going to install the app install package.
05:32SPEAKERI just want WinGet.
05:33SPEAKER- Well, yeah.
05:34SPEAKERLike you can WinGet yourself some lower standards then.
05:36SPEAKER- The app installer?
05:38SPEAKER- The app installer, I believe is what it's called.
05:40SPEAKER- Wait, apparently I have that installed already.
05:43SPEAKER- Yeah, you do.
05:44SPEAKERCause you had the Terminal beta from a while ago,
05:46SPEAKERwhich is how you used to get it.
05:48SPEAKER- It's already there.
05:48SPEAKERYou have WinGet.
05:49SPEAKERYou got WinGet a long time ago.
05:51SPEAKER- Well, you think that,
05:52SPEAKERbut I just typed WinGet into the Terminal and nothing.
05:54SPEAKER- That's the exact same experience I had.
05:56SPEAKERI had to install a whole bunch of other nonsense
05:57SPEAKERfrom GitHub in order to get it to work.
05:59SPEAKER- That's exactly why I don't have WinGet.
06:01SPEAKER- You know what I needed was I needed Chocolaty
06:03SPEAKERto have a WinGet install for me so that then I was done.
06:06SPEAKER- Okay, let me tie this whole thing together, right?
06:08SPEAKERThis cold open is about to come home.
06:10SPEAKER- Bring it home.
06:11SPEAKER- I have Chocolaty, which I don't mind,
06:13SPEAKERbut I have just enough issues with it
06:14SPEAKERthat I would like to try WinGet.
06:16SPEAKERChocolaty, you often have to run as administrator
06:18SPEAKERin a Terminal to install things.
06:20SPEAKERIf you hit Window + X,
06:22SPEAKERyou'll pop up a start menu, right-click menu
06:25SPEAKERwhere you can hit A to open a Terminal in admin mode.
06:28SPEAKER- Ooh.
06:29SPEAKER- Or if you have it on your start menu,
06:31SPEAKERyou can hit, I believe it's Control + Shift Window
06:34SPEAKERand the number, yes, of the icon on your start menu.
06:38SPEAKER- Oh, Control + Shift opens it,
06:39SPEAKERwhatever you're opening in on the,
06:41SPEAKER'cause it's just Windows key plus the number
06:43SPEAKERis opening the shortcut.
06:44SPEAKER- So I think we've mentioned that before.
06:45SPEAKERWindows key plus the number of the icon from the left
06:48SPEAKERon the start menu will open that application.
06:49SPEAKER- For things that are pinned.
06:51SPEAKER- Yes, for things that are pinned.
06:52SPEAKERSo if you hold, it's Control + Shift Window.
06:54SPEAKERSo hold like Control + Shift Window
06:55SPEAKERand hit the number key of your Terminal
06:57SPEAKERor whatever application and it will open it as admin.
06:59SPEAKER- Well, I've just, Win, gotten informed about something new.
07:04SPEAKER- Always be learning.
07:05SPEAKER(upbeat music)
07:15SPEAKER(upbeat music)
07:35SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made at TechPod.
07:37SPEAKERI'm Will.
07:38SPEAKER- I'm Brad, it's an exciting day here, Will.
07:40SPEAKER- It's Friday.
07:41SPEAKER- Well, yes, it's Friday.
07:42SPEAKER- Ladies and gentlemen, the weekend.
07:44SPEAKER- No, don't, I can't.
07:45SPEAKERLook, I get why people like that account.
07:49SPEAKERIt's, I'm afraid it's a little past its sell-by date.
07:52SPEAKER- It's better than the Rebecca Black Friday one.
07:54SPEAKERThat's all I'm gonna say.
07:55SPEAKER- I guess that's true, I guess that's true.
07:57SPEAKERI admire the spirit.
07:58SPEAKERHey, what's not to like about a Friday afternoon?
08:01SPEAKER- I love a Friday afternoon, like you sit back,
08:03SPEAKERcrack open a beer, maybe make a gin and tonic.
08:07SPEAKERI don't know, go enjoy some outside,
08:09SPEAKERsee some fractal nature.
08:11SPEAKER- Yeah. - Sounds good.
08:11SPEAKER- Eat some snacks.
08:13SPEAKER- Play four or five hours of PUBG
08:14SPEAKERstarting at eight o'clock Pacific time
08:16SPEAKERlike you do every weekend, every Friday night.
08:18SPEAKER- Except customs instead of regular.
08:20SPEAKER- Yeah, it's customs, so it's weird games, it's fun.
08:22SPEAKER- That's everybody's Friday night routine, of course.
08:24SPEAKER- Yeah, that's what everybody does.
08:25SPEAKERThat's just the normal thing people do.
08:27SPEAKER- Right, but also.
08:29SPEAKER- Yes.
08:31SPEAKER- I believe this is, by our internationally standardized
08:34SPEAKERmethod of counting, the 100th episode of this podcast.
08:37SPEAKER- Wait, I thought it was, we talked about this last week,
08:39SPEAKERI thought this was the 101st episode.
08:41SPEAKER- That's the literal number, not the recognized.
08:44SPEAKER- Wait, so we have an observed number and a literal number?
08:46SPEAKER- Look, we've moved to a semantic versioning scheme
08:49SPEAKERhere for this, I'm sorry.
08:51SPEAKER- Okay, so there's some problems I'm noticing
08:54SPEAKER'cause I have an archive of all the episodes
08:56SPEAKERon my hard drive. - So what, yes.
08:58SPEAKER- Yeah, and we, I feel like we probably had a conversation
09:01SPEAKERabout this about somewhere just under two years ago.
09:05SPEAKERAnd we decided the file name structure for the podcast
09:09SPEAKERis digit digit hyphen title dot MP3.
09:15SPEAKER- Yeah, something like that.
09:17SPEAKER- So now we have a problem, as I understand it.
09:19SPEAKER- Yeah, well, so I also, I archive all the audacity projects
09:22SPEAKERas well. - Jesus, really?
09:24SPEAKER- I have every audacity project for every episode
09:26SPEAKERof this podcast sitting right in front of me.
09:28SPEAKER- Does that mean you have individual tracks?
09:30SPEAKER- Yes.
09:32SPEAKER- It's gotta be like a terabyte at this point, right?
09:33SPEAKER'Cause they're like 600 megs each per track.
09:35SPEAKER- I am a digital pack rat, okay, I can't get rid of stuff.
09:38SPEAKERLike hashtag hoarding.
09:39SPEAKER- In my mind, it's like, hey, a couple of years from now
09:42SPEAKERwhen this is the biggest podcast on the planet
09:44SPEAKERand people are out there and they want lossless versions
09:47SPEAKERof this podcast, or like maybe we need to go back
09:48SPEAKERand clean up your track and not mine in episode 17.
09:51SPEAKER- What?
09:52SPEAKERMy track in 17 was perfect.
09:54SPEAKER- Why not have the original source material,
09:57SPEAKERthe lossless source material?
09:59SPEAKER- When the Library of Congress calls, we're ready.
10:01SPEAKER- Yes, in the multi-track format, just in case.
10:03SPEAKERAnyway, so to date, seven zipped,
10:06SPEAKEReach one of those projects, seven zipped,
10:08SPEAKER52.1 gigabytes of--
10:10SPEAKER- Oh, that's not bad.
10:11SPEAKER- Of tech pod source material.
10:14SPEAKER- I wanna know, does that mean somebody could make
10:16SPEAKERlike a Dolby digital, like a full Atmos version
10:20SPEAKERof the podcast?
10:21SPEAKER- Put our voices in Atmos, 64 channels.
10:24SPEAKER- I want us to be whizzing around the theater
10:25SPEAKERwhen the podcast, like if we ever get to do live events,
10:28SPEAKERI wanna run out of Dolby Atmos Theater
10:31SPEAKERand have a tech pod where we're just moving around
10:34SPEAKERthe room seamlessly during the entire conversation.
10:37SPEAKER- It's a weird coincidence that you mentioned that
10:39SPEAKER'cause I was thinking about doing some vocal processing
10:41SPEAKERon a couple of spots in this episode.
10:43SPEAKER- Oh. - For example,
10:44SPEAKERwhen one of us says, "Scene drama."
10:49SPEAKERWe wait, "Scene drama."
10:52SPEAKERYeah, we'll see what kind of reverb effects
10:55SPEAKERI have to work with after this
10:57SPEAKERonce we're done recording here.
10:58SPEAKERWe'll see how this turned out.
11:00SPEAKERWait, can you do it live?
11:02SPEAKER- But I wouldn't.
11:03SPEAKER- Would I do something like that live?
11:04SPEAKERThat would be ridiculous. - When you look up,
11:06SPEAKERI know that you're looking at your high monitor,
11:08SPEAKERwhich means you're probably messing
11:09SPEAKERwith something on that computer.
11:10SPEAKER- Me, mess with something on the top computer?
11:14SPEAKERScene drama.
11:16SPEAKER- That may have gone through to your recording,
11:18SPEAKERbut it did not come through this video call.
11:20SPEAKER- Oh, hold on, it was turned off.
11:21SPEAKERSorry, sorry, sorry.
11:23SPEAKERScene drama.
11:24SPEAKER- Nope, sorry.
11:25SPEAKER- Still nothing? - Nope.
11:27SPEAKER- Crap.
11:28SPEAKERHold on, hold on.
11:29SPEAKER- Look.
11:30SPEAKER- I got this, I believe.
11:32SPEAKER- There's no substitute for good post-production.
11:34SPEAKER- That's true.
11:38SPEAKEROh, here we go.
11:39SPEAKERNope, that's 16, 14.
11:40SPEAKERScene drama, fudge.
11:43SPEAKER- I'm sorry, we should talk, we should move on.
11:47SPEAKER- Whoa.
11:50SPEAKER- Okay, do the rest of the episode like this.
11:56SPEAKER- I don't know, I don't know what's going on here.
11:58SPEAKERI don't know, man, scene drama.
12:00SPEAKER- Wow, there's a robot has shown up too.
12:03SPEAKERThat one's pretty good, actually.
12:04SPEAKER- Scene drama.
12:06SPEAKER- All right, this podcast is probably unlistenable now.
12:09SPEAKER- People are gonna be really upset about this,
12:10SPEAKERI can tell you in advance.
12:12SPEAKER- That's probably true.
12:13SPEAKERReal quick, before we get on with the scene drama.
12:17SPEAKER- We just made some scene drama of our own there, I bet.
12:19SPEAKER- Probably.
12:20SPEAKERI just really wanted to talk briefly about my hour,
12:24SPEAKERperhaps, astonishing lack of foresight
12:27SPEAKERin not putting two leading zeros on the episode number
12:29SPEAKERof all these audacity projects.
12:31SPEAKER- I believe.
12:32SPEAKER- We started out with only one leading zero,
12:34SPEAKERas in zero one, zero two, zero three.
12:37SPEAKERAnd I'm pretty sure when I put this episode 100 one in there,
12:40SPEAKERit's going to float to the very top, right?
12:41SPEAKEROr of course, very close to it.
12:44SPEAKER- So I think we had this conversation,
12:46SPEAKERwe can probably go back and find the logs in Discord,
12:48SPEAKERbut I'm pretty sure we had this conversation
12:49SPEAKERand the takeaway, I said, and I may have been wrong,
12:54SPEAKERbut I thought it was a representative man's own hubris
12:58SPEAKERto imply that we would have a hundred episodes
13:00SPEAKERof this podcast.
13:01SPEAKER- I think that's kind of where I was at.
13:02SPEAKERThat's pretty much exactly where I was at.
13:04SPEAKERI was like, yeah, this will probably peter out
13:06SPEAKERsomewhere in the sixties.
13:07SPEAKER- So anyway, good job, us.
13:10SPEAKER- Also, we started with seasons.
13:12SPEAKERSo all the projects are named E00, E16, E24 in the file name.
13:18SPEAKEROriginally, we had like S01, E17.
13:21SPEAKER- How long did we do that for?
13:22SPEAKERI don't remember that.
13:23SPEAKER- For the first two, three months, I think those were there.
13:25SPEAKER'Cause we thought we had some weird cockamamie idea
13:27SPEAKERthat we were gonna do seasons.
13:29SPEAKER- I thought, yeah, we thought we were gonna have
13:30SPEAKERlike hiatuses occasionally.
13:31SPEAKER- Yeah, instead it turns out we may have missed
13:34SPEAKERlike one week, but that's about it.
13:36SPEAKER- Yeah, we did have a hiatus.
13:37SPEAKERWell, I think, I mean, it's not too late.
13:39SPEAKERWe could start.
13:40SPEAKER- I guess.
13:41SPEAKER- This could be the first episode of season two, right here.
13:43SPEAKER- People listen to episode one.
13:45SPEAKER- Sure, I guess you're right.
13:46SPEAKER- Then we solved the problem.
13:47SPEAKER- We made it to a hundred episodes.
13:48SPEAKER- Yeah, anyway, thanks everybody for listening.
13:51SPEAKER- Yeah, that's what I was gonna say
13:52SPEAKERis people seem to like this podcast.
13:54SPEAKERWe can't stop now.
13:56SPEAKER- No, can't stop, won't stop.
13:57SPEAKERPeople are relying on us.
13:59SPEAKER- In fact, today we're fulfilling a promise
14:01SPEAKERthat is long overdue.
14:03SPEAKER- Long overdue.
14:04SPEAKER- When we hit 2,000 patrons on the Patreon
14:08SPEAKERa couple of months ago now, we said we would do,
14:11SPEAKERwell, when we hit 1,700 patrons on the Patreon,
14:14SPEAKERwe said we would do scene drama when we hit 2,000.
14:16SPEAKERAnd people were really excited about that apparently
14:18SPEAKER'cause we hit 2,000 like 15 minutes
14:20SPEAKERafter we made the promise.
14:22SPEAKERAnd then like all of our preparation time evaporated
14:26SPEAKERand we had to kind of, we decided to sit and think about it
14:29SPEAKERand let's do a little bit before we dug in.
14:32SPEAKERBut we have the long promise never delivered
14:36SPEAKERscene drama episode coming in hot.
14:39SPEAKER- Until now.
14:40SPEAKER- Right now.
14:41SPEAKER- Also just a quick addendum to our naming catastrophe.
14:45SPEAKERI've done enough shell scripting and regular expressions
14:48SPEAKERand pattern matching and stuff like that
14:49SPEAKERthat I think I could one liner this problem
14:52SPEAKERout of existence at this point.
14:53SPEAKER- No, you can't retcon this problem.
14:55SPEAKERI can just, I can mass rename all of those zero ones
14:58SPEAKERto zero zero ones.
14:59SPEAKER- Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
15:01SPEAKERThis isn't Batman's unfortunate history.
15:05SPEAKERThis isn't Han shooting first.
15:09SPEAKERThis isn't something you can simply wave your hand
15:13SPEAKERand say, oh nope, not a problem.
15:14SPEAKERBash scripting saves the day.
15:17SPEAKERThis is something we have to live with.
15:18SPEAKERWe have to learn from our mistakes.
15:19SPEAKERAnd when we launched the next podcast,
15:21SPEAKERBrad and Will made a movie pod.
15:23SPEAKER- We should learn, yeah.
15:25SPEAKER- Many lessons need to be learned.
15:27SPEAKER(laughing)
15:31SPEAKER- Don't idly go into podcast is the lesson I think here.
15:34SPEAKER- Not nearly as many lessons as Netgate,
15:36SPEAKERthe makers of PF Sense need to learn though.
15:39SPEAKER- Wow, that was an incredible segue.
15:40SPEAKERIt's almost like we've been doing this for 100 episodes.
15:43SPEAKERWhat lessons, this is,
15:47SPEAKERso I think this happened after we made this promise.
15:49SPEAKERThis was a thing.
15:51SPEAKER- This is kind of a one to me.
15:53SPEAKERLike, first of all, like part of the reason
15:54SPEAKERwe put this episode off is 'cause we were sort of weighing
15:56SPEAKERhow to do it or we were a little torn on like,
15:59SPEAKERis it a bit uncouth to like point and laugh
16:01SPEAKERat these like ridiculous situations of people behaving badly
16:05SPEAKERin the tech and software world?
16:06SPEAKER- Yeah, a friend of mine offered to come on the show
16:09SPEAKERand read his shit posting from like the early 2000s
16:12SPEAKERwhen he caused a bunch of scene drama.
16:14SPEAKERI don't think that's exactly the intent
16:16SPEAKERthat we're looking for.
16:17SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, we could get there, we'll see.
16:19SPEAKER- Maybe later, maybe a special episode.
16:22SPEAKERBut yeah, like for me, the scene drama has to have
16:23SPEAKERlike a couple of components.
16:25SPEAKERThere has to be some malfeasance
16:27SPEAKERand then there has to be some righteous indignation
16:30SPEAKERat the suggestion of malfeasance
16:33SPEAKERfrom probably whoever did the malfeasance.
16:36SPEAKERAnd then like, hopefully there's resolution,
16:38SPEAKERbut often it turns out not so much.
16:40SPEAKER- I would say definitely you want some good doubling down
16:43SPEAKERin there, like you definitely want somebody who is at fault
16:45SPEAKERwho not admit fault and to instead dig themselves deeper.
16:49SPEAKERMaybe some baseless act like tweeting through it
16:52SPEAKERdefinitely is a scene drama.
16:55SPEAKER- Staple.
16:55SPEAKER- Yes, a staple of the genre.
16:57SPEAKERI also think, I also, like, I feel like
17:02SPEAKERif a lesson is learned other than maybe don't work
17:05SPEAKERwith this company anymore, you maybe have,
17:08SPEAKERmaybe it's not really seen drama
17:10SPEAKERand it's just like people learning from mistakes,
17:12SPEAKERwhich is a good thing.
17:13SPEAKER- Yeah, at that point, you're just deescalating drama.
17:16SPEAKERLike nobody wants that.
17:17SPEAKER- Yeah, well, no, actually that is exactly what we want
17:20SPEAKERjust to be clear.
17:21SPEAKER- Yes, but you know, people like rubbernecking a car crash.
17:26SPEAKER- I mean, part of the reason we took that,
17:27SPEAKERlike I didn't, realistically,
17:29SPEAKERwhen we made the promise to do this,
17:30SPEAKERI didn't think we were gonna hit 2000 patrons ever.
17:32SPEAKERSo I thought it was just an idle threat.
17:35SPEAKER'Cause the whole, like this whole concept of this episode
17:37SPEAKERmakes me kind of uncomfortable.
17:38SPEAKER- 'Cause that's fine.
17:40SPEAKER- Well, no, but like, I don't,
17:41SPEAKERI like to celebrate people doing the right thing,
17:43SPEAKERwhich is making a mistake and learning from the mistake
17:45SPEAKERand moving on, taking those lessons to heart.
17:47SPEAKERAnd scene drama is inherently against that concept.
17:50SPEAKER- You're right.
17:51SPEAKERI mean, like if there's anything in the world
17:52SPEAKERdoes not need more of it's gleeful negativity.
17:55SPEAKER- Jesus, yeah.
17:56SPEAKER- But again, these people are really behaving poorly
18:00SPEAKERin most of these cases.
18:02SPEAKER- And also there's at least the stuff that we picked out
18:05SPEAKERto talk about today is, I don't wanna say victimless
18:09SPEAKER'cause none of it's victimless,
18:10SPEAKERbut like probably nobody got hurt physically
18:13SPEAKERor maybe even monetarily, maybe monetarily, I don't know.
18:19SPEAKER- All right.
18:20SPEAKER- It's complicated.
18:20SPEAKEROkay, so we're gonna start with PF Sense.
18:22SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, I'm torn between this
18:25SPEAKERand the ubiquity stuff, but I think for my money,
18:27SPEAKERthis is the most astonishing thing on this list.
18:29SPEAKER- This one has some real implications.
18:32SPEAKER- So, okay, so there's PF Sense.
18:34SPEAKERWe've talked about it before.
18:35SPEAKERWe had Wes from our friend of the show, Wes Fenlon on.
18:38SPEAKER- PC gamers, Wes Fenlon, yeah.
18:39SPEAKER- Yes, to talk about, he built a PF Sense machine.
18:42SPEAKERActually, do you know what?
18:43SPEAKERI forgot to even roll the original PF Sense drama into this.
18:46SPEAKERLike this goes back years.
18:47SPEAKER- What's the original PF Sense drama?
18:48SPEAKER- Oh my God, I almost feel like we have to stop
18:50SPEAKERso you can read, okay.
18:51SPEAKERYears ago, so PF Sense is based on a very old
18:55SPEAKERopen source project, I believe called MonoWall.
18:57SPEAKERI am pulling this from memory, forgive me
18:59SPEAKERif I get any of this stuff wrong, but MonoWall is very old.
19:02SPEAKERIt's FreeBSD based.
19:03SPEAKERIt's like a very old respected FreeBSD based firewall
19:07SPEAKERand PF Sense was forked from that.
19:08SPEAKERPF Sense has been around for years.
19:10SPEAKERIt's very well respected, but at a point something happened
19:14SPEAKERin the PF Sense community, like some years ago,
19:17SPEAKERthree, four or five years ago.
19:18SPEAKERAnd you may have heard of Open Sense.
19:19SPEAKERI think we've talked about it.
19:21SPEAKER- Yeah, I remember Open Sense.
19:21SPEAKER- So Open Sense is a fork of PF Sense forked by people
19:25SPEAKERwho didn't really agree with the direction
19:26SPEAKERthat PF Sense was going.
19:27SPEAKER- Okay, now this is a component of scene drama
19:30SPEAKERwe should have talked about before that I love.
19:32SPEAKERLike open source scene drama when somebody is like,
19:34SPEAKER"Fuck you, I'm just taking this and going
19:35SPEAKERto do something else and make it good."
19:37SPEAKER- The spiteful fork.
19:39SPEAKER- Yeah, the spiteful fork.
19:40SPEAKERLike sometimes it's like there's a GIMP fork,
19:43SPEAKERthe open source Photoshop clone.
19:45SPEAKER- It's called, the name always escapes me, which like-
19:48SPEAKER- It's called Glimpse.
19:49SPEAKERIt's a fork of GIMP. - Glimpse, Glimpse.
19:51SPEAKERThat's right, that's right.
19:51SPEAKER- Because just to be clear, GIMP is a fucking terrible name
19:55SPEAKERin 2021.
19:56SPEAKER- Yeah, it's not a great- - It was a bad name
19:57SPEAKERwhen the project started, but it's, yeah.
19:59SPEAKER- I have taken to referring to it
20:01SPEAKERas the GNU Image Manipulation Program.
20:04SPEAKER- Okay, fair.
20:05SPEAKER- That's like when the dog tees on the floor
20:06SPEAKERand you rub the dog's face in it.
20:08SPEAKERTo be clear, I've never actually done that to a dog
20:10SPEAKERand would not-
20:10SPEAKER- No, you should not do that to the dog.
20:12SPEAKER- But I feel like if they're going to name their thing that,
20:15SPEAKERI'm just going to make them listen
20:16SPEAKERto the entire name every time.
20:17SPEAKER- Yeah, well, you should actually do the whole,
20:20SPEAKERwhat the abbreviation,
20:21SPEAKERwhich is not an abbreviation for GNU is also.
20:24SPEAKER- Oh, what is it?
20:25SPEAKERGNU is not Unix?
20:25SPEAKER- GNU is not Unix Image Manipulation Program.
20:28SPEAKER- GNU, see that just is an infinite progress, right?
20:30SPEAKERThat never stops recursing.
20:32SPEAKERSo I just say that over and over and over.
20:34SPEAKER- Yeah, there you go.
20:35SPEAKER- Okay, Open Sense forked off of PF Sense at some point.
20:39SPEAKER- So Open Source, Free Sense, hold on,
20:42SPEAKERMonowall, Baguette, Open Sense,
20:44SPEAKERand Open Sense, Baguette, PF Sense.
20:46SPEAKER- Also, I want to say that the, yes, I've got this right.
20:49SPEAKERThe O's are not O's in Monowall, they're zeros.
20:51SPEAKER- Yeah, their URL is maybe the worst URL I've ever seen
20:54SPEAKER'cause it's m0n0.ch/wall.
20:57SPEAKER- Yes, oh, they're endorsing Open Sense now.
21:00SPEAKER- Yeah.
21:01SPEAKER- If you go to the Monowall website,
21:02SPEAKERthey are straight up linking you to Open Sense.
21:03SPEAKERI think that is pretty telling.
21:05SPEAKER- Like one of the things about Scene Drama
21:07SPEAKERis it has all of the drama
21:09SPEAKERof like an IRC net split channel takeover from like 1995.
21:14SPEAKER- Yes.
21:14SPEAKER- When like there's a big F net split,
21:16SPEAKERwhich is where the servers get out of sync
21:17SPEAKERwith each other for a few minutes.
21:19SPEAKERAnd like one of your favorite channels is empty
21:21SPEAKERand a bunch of people will move in and drop their bots in
21:23SPEAKERto try to maintain op after the servers reconnect.
21:27SPEAKER- It is 100% that, it is 100% that.
21:28SPEAKERI am utilizing my new found knowledge
21:30SPEAKERand putting a link in this Google doc and typing Control + K.
21:33SPEAKER- Yep.
21:34SPEAKER- And now you can click on that link
21:35SPEAKERand go see what happened between PF Sense and Open Sense.
21:37SPEAKERThe short version is the PF Sense people
21:39SPEAKERdid not take kindly at all to it being forked
21:42SPEAKERby people with different opinions.
21:44SPEAKERAnd they went out and registered opensense.com
21:46SPEAKERbefore the actual Open Sense people could
21:49SPEAKERand put up like, are you looking at this page?
21:51SPEAKERLike they put up like some of the most like pathetic,
21:54SPEAKERmudslinging slander on this website.
21:59SPEAKERWe have features, but that's not what's important.
22:01SPEAKERWhen we fork a stable enterprise proven software project,
22:04SPEAKERwe strip out most of the important functionality.
22:07SPEAKERIt's just there, it's just also the Hitler meme is on here
22:09SPEAKERfrom Downfall, like they put that in this page.
22:12SPEAKER- Wow.
22:13SPEAKER- It's made to look like a real official Open Sense homepage,
22:18SPEAKERbut it's nothing but like a feature list
22:20SPEAKERthat is nothing but talking shit
22:21SPEAKERabout this fork of their product
22:23SPEAKERand likening them to Nazi or using, you know,
22:25SPEAKERusing this ridiculous Nazi meme, it's pathetic.
22:29SPEAKER- Wow, what we do at our off time
22:30SPEAKERand it's a picture of a guy riding like a hobby horse
22:32SPEAKERat a kid's park.
22:33SPEAKER- Right, and for all I know,
22:35SPEAKERthat might be one of the actual Open Sense developers.
22:36SPEAKERLike these people see,
22:38SPEAKERthe PF Sense people seem petty enough
22:39SPEAKERto go out and track down photos of the actual developers
22:42SPEAKERand put them up like that.
22:43SPEAKER- That is a high level of spite.
22:45SPEAKEROkay, this is maybe better scene drama
22:48SPEAKERbecause like what was the original fuss over?
22:51SPEAKERDo you remember?
22:52SPEAKER- Over, you mean the fork?
22:53SPEAKER- Why the fork and the spiteful website?
22:56SPEAKER- I've never seen a great explanation of that beyond,
22:58SPEAKERlike they just thought, I want to say
23:00SPEAKERthey maybe thought the project was too conservative.
23:02SPEAKERLike it wasn't adding feature fast enough
23:03SPEAKERor something like that.
23:04SPEAKERI don't think it was anything like,
23:05SPEAKERI don't think it was anything that contentious.
23:08SPEAKER- Yo, I didn't have commit flags.
23:10SPEAKERSo I'm just going to fork my own version
23:12SPEAKERand pull all the other people without commit flags
23:14SPEAKERto start rolling up.
23:15SPEAKERWow, okay.
23:17SPEAKER- They went to court over this, if I'm not mistaken.
23:19SPEAKER- They filed the complaints with the WIPO,
23:21SPEAKERwhich is the World Intellectual Property Organization
23:24SPEAKERis my understanding.
23:25SPEAKER- They sought our word arbitration,
23:27SPEAKERwhich went in their favor because of course it would.
23:30SPEAKER- Yeah, who is they in this case?
23:31SPEAKEROpen sense, real open sense or fake open sense?
23:34SPEAKER- Real open sense.
23:35SPEAKERI mean, fake open sense was just PF sense.
23:39SPEAKER- Oh.
23:41SPEAKER- Yes, that's who was putting up this fake website
23:42SPEAKERwas the PF sense people.
23:43SPEAKERLike they also like astroturfed on Reddit,
23:46SPEAKERif I'm not mistaken.
23:46SPEAKERI think they went and like posted some anyway.
23:49SPEAKER- This stuff is fairly old.
23:50SPEAKER- Maybe Netgate, the company that makes PF sense is bad
23:53SPEAKERis what I'm thinking at this point, Brad.
23:54SPEAKERIt's kind of, that's the pretext, that's the backstory here.
23:57SPEAKERThis was 2016, I believe that all that went down,
24:00SPEAKERbut then dude, like we hadn't gotten to the stuff
24:02SPEAKERfrom this year.
24:03SPEAKERSo Netgate is the company that basically runs PF sense,
24:07SPEAKEReven though it's an open source product.
24:09SPEAKERLike they put out a bunch of little boxes
24:11SPEAKERthat run the software.
24:13SPEAKER- Yeah.
24:14SPEAKER- Like they make appliances, right?
24:15SPEAKERYou can run PF sense on.
24:16SPEAKER- It's one of the open source business ways
24:18SPEAKERis that you start, you either sell services
24:20SPEAKERlike maintenance contracts and security updates
24:22SPEAKERand stuff like consulting, or you sell a product
24:25SPEAKERthat uses the hardware.
24:26SPEAKER- Or both.
24:27SPEAKER- Or both, yeah.
24:28SPEAKER- But the core software product generally is free
24:30SPEAKERand that, yeah, you're right.
24:31SPEAKERThat's how they make their money.
24:33SPEAKERSo, okay, PF sense commissioned a software developer
24:36SPEAKERto port WireGuard, which is a very new, modern,
24:39SPEAKERlike super efficient VPN protocol.
24:42SPEAKER- Yeah.
24:42SPEAKER- Or product package to PF sense.
24:46SPEAKER- That's correct.
24:46SPEAKER- Which essentially means that they're porting it
24:48SPEAKERto free BSD because that's what PF sense is underneath.
24:51SPEAKER- Well, the thing I, my understanding is that WireGuard
24:55SPEAKERneeded kernel access to BSD.
24:58SPEAKERSo in order to do this, they needed a BSD kernel developer
25:02SPEAKERwho had like low level networking experience.
25:04SPEAKER'Cause you're essentially baking,
25:05SPEAKERmaking a kernel level network interface for BSD
25:09SPEAKERthat uses the WireGuard tunneling protocol.
25:12SPEAKER- You're right.
25:13SPEAKER- Encrypted tunneling protocol.
25:14SPEAKER- I don't remember exactly.
25:14SPEAKERI think that you're right.
25:15SPEAKERThere might've been a user space implementation
25:17SPEAKERof WireGuard for free BSD already.
25:19SPEAKERAnd they wanted-
25:20SPEAKERthere's performance issues or something with that.
25:22SPEAKERIt doesn't, yeah.
25:23SPEAKER- There definitely are.
25:24SPEAKERNot to get too into the weeds,
25:25SPEAKERbut the WireGuard people just put out
25:27SPEAKERa kernel level Windows version of WireGuard
25:29SPEAKERbecause they had a user space version
25:32SPEAKERand like the performance increase was massive.
25:34SPEAKERIt was like 25% or something.
25:35SPEAKERSo you're right.
25:36SPEAKER- So they hired, they hired this guy, Matthew Macy,
25:39SPEAKERwho is a BSD contributor.
25:41SPEAKER- Or has been at one time?
25:43SPEAKER- Yeah, it seems like it.
25:45SPEAKER- Seems like maybe he hadn't contributed in a while
25:48SPEAKER'cause he had been up to some other things.
25:50SPEAKER- Okay, so not to like, you know,
25:53SPEAKERhe had some legal issues that weren't result,
25:55SPEAKERwas the result of software behavior.
25:58SPEAKER- Yeah.
25:59SPEAKER- But he spent four years in jail because he was a bad land,
26:02SPEAKERlike a thelonious level of bad landlord.
26:08SPEAKER- Yes, landlords from hell are how he-
26:11SPEAKER- In San Francisco, so hey, I can see that.
26:13SPEAKER- Yes, this ABC story describes him and his wife
26:16SPEAKERas landlords from hell.
26:17SPEAKERBecause if I remember,
26:18SPEAKERthey were terrorizing their tenants essentially,
26:20SPEAKERlike by doing things like cutting a hole in the floor
26:23SPEAKERof one of their tenants' apartments.
26:24SPEAKERAnd I believe they pulled a gun on somebody.
26:25SPEAKER- They removed floor joists
26:27SPEAKERso that the house would be condemned.
26:29SPEAKERAll of this, it was like,
26:31SPEAKERI've heard some insane San Francisco landlord stories,
26:34SPEAKERbut this one was really, it's really above and beyond.
26:37SPEAKER- And also, if I'm not mistaken,
26:39SPEAKERhe fled the country, correct?
26:41SPEAKERBefore he was-
26:41SPEAKER- That is, that is, yeah, that is my understanding.
26:43SPEAKERHe was extradited from Italy.
26:45SPEAKER- Yes, according to this Ars Technica article.
26:47SPEAKER- Just purely based on his flight from the law,
26:51SPEAKERbased on the fact that this story
26:53SPEAKERincludes an international fugitive from justice,
26:55SPEAKERI feel like that automatically makes this
26:57SPEAKERthe worst scene drama in this episode.
26:59SPEAKER- I think, well, I think that's not the thing
27:01SPEAKERthat makes this the worst scene drama.
27:02SPEAKERI think that the-
27:03SPEAKER- Or the most dramatic, let me put it that way.
27:04SPEAKERThat is definitely the most sensational.
27:07SPEAKER- Well, so, okay, we don't need to get into the specifics.
27:10SPEAKERThere's an Ars Technica article that we'll link
27:11SPEAKERthat tells you basically the gist,
27:13SPEAKERbut like there's some really obvious stuff,
27:17SPEAKERlike not accounting for jumbo frames
27:19SPEAKERon network packet setups that cause kernel panics
27:22SPEAKERand things like that.
27:23SPEAKER- It was like to back up or to give the 10,000 foot view,
27:26SPEAKERlike it was a very poor, buggy,
27:28SPEAKERinsecure implementation of WireGuard
27:31SPEAKERto the point that the actual WireGuard developer,
27:33SPEAKERlike he seems to have been very diplomatic
27:35SPEAKERthrough this whole thing,
27:36SPEAKERbut he also came out and like a lot of people came out
27:39SPEAKERand said, this is not production ready.
27:41SPEAKERThis is not acceptable in any sense of the word
27:44SPEAKERto be included in the FreeBSD kernel,
27:45SPEAKERwhich is like an extremely well-respected
27:49SPEAKERand like critical piece of infrastructure
27:51SPEAKERfor a lot of companies.
27:52SPEAKER- Okay, so there's the bad code, which is not great.
27:56SPEAKERThen there's also some other stuff that happened.
27:58SPEAKERPFSense took the submission and backported it
28:02SPEAKERto the current version of BSD
28:03SPEAKERthat they use on their appliances.
28:06SPEAKERSo, and made it available immediately.
28:08SPEAKERSo when people were like,
28:10SPEAKERhey, there's a bunch of vulnerabilities
28:12SPEAKERin this WireGuard implementation
28:15SPEAKERthat's been checked into the kernel,
28:17SPEAKERbut not actually released yet.
28:18SPEAKERIt was at a pre-release version.
28:19SPEAKER- I believe it was, if I'm not mistaken.
28:22SPEAKER- It was 13, I think.
28:23SPEAKER- Yes, it was committed for FreeBSD 13,
28:24SPEAKERwhich had not released at the time.
28:26SPEAKERSo it never made it to proper FreeBSD,
28:29SPEAKERbut it did make it into PFSense, which was released.
28:31SPEAKER- Well, yeah, and the problem is
28:33SPEAKERwhen they released the list of vulnerabilities,
28:36SPEAKERit immediately makes all those PFSense boxes
28:38SPEAKERpotentially vulnerable to the exploits added by this code.
28:47SPEAKERAnd it ends up in a,
28:50SPEAKERlike BSD is in a situation where like
28:53SPEAKERnobody running pre-release BSD
28:55SPEAKERshould be running on prod machines is their official policy.
28:58SPEAKERBut these PFSense machines
28:59SPEAKERwere presumably production machines
29:00SPEAKERand like it's a security problem at that point.
29:02SPEAKERSo I don't know who's right or wrong there.
29:05SPEAKERLike it seems like Netgate is maybe not an awesome company.
29:11SPEAKER- Well, I mean, this goes on and on and on.
29:14SPEAKERSo like the developer of WireGuard, Jason Donenfeld,
29:16SPEAKERI believe is his name, came out of nowhere.
29:19SPEAKER- Kind of an innocent and like just gets looped
29:21SPEAKERand roped into this whole scene drama.
29:23SPEAKER- It actually gets worse
29:24SPEAKERbecause he produced multiple email threads with Kip Macy,
29:27SPEAKERthe guy who wrote this bad,
29:29SPEAKERthe felon who wrote the bad landlord who wrote the bad code.
29:33SPEAKER- No, no, no, that's Matt.
29:35SPEAKER- He goes by Kip, Matt Macy.
29:37SPEAKERLike you find,
29:37SPEAKERyou see him referred to as Kip Macy quite a bit here, but.
29:40SPEAKER- Got it.
29:41SPEAKER- Donenfeld, the actual WireGuard creator
29:43SPEAKERproduced a bunch of email threads over the last like year
29:45SPEAKERwhere he had offered to help Macy
29:47SPEAKERwith the free BSD implementation.
29:49SPEAKERAnd they had been like, nah,
29:50SPEAKERlike they kind of brushed him off.
29:53SPEAKERSo he kind of came out of the woodwork
29:54SPEAKERand rewrote this entire module in like a week or two.
29:59SPEAKER- Yeah, with a couple of other people it said.
30:00SPEAKER- And like got it where it needed to be
30:02SPEAKERand recommitted it to the kernel.
30:04SPEAKERAnd like that stuff all seems to be taken care of,
30:06SPEAKERbut on the flip side,
30:08SPEAKERthe people who run Netgate really just circled the wagons
30:11SPEAKERaround this bad code they had put out
30:14SPEAKERin like a pretty embarrassing way, right?
30:17SPEAKER- Yeah, that seems right.
30:19SPEAKERIn a way that would make me not want to use their products,
30:21SPEAKERI would say as a consumer of this type of product.
30:23SPEAKER- Yes, I meant to get these posts in front of me.
30:28SPEAKER- So, I mean, really the larger, the big question,
30:32SPEAKERso the thing that came out of this that was interesting to me
30:34SPEAKERand the lesson to learn, I guess,
30:36SPEAKERis that there's often not a lot of code review
30:39SPEAKERthat goes into both Linux and BSD,
30:43SPEAKERlike even core kernel elements,
30:44SPEAKERlike network implementations and stuff like that.
30:46SPEAKER- Yes.
30:48SPEAKER- In a way that makes me wonder
30:51SPEAKERhow many nation states are embedding people
30:54SPEAKERon these open source volunteer, often volunteer teams
30:59SPEAKERto just put whatever useful stuff is in there.
31:03SPEAKERIf nobody's reviewing code that goes into BSD kernels
31:06SPEAKERand there's like the same thing happened
31:07SPEAKERwith Linux a few months ago pointed out
31:09SPEAKERwith the University of Minnesota thing.
31:11SPEAKER- So yeah, this definitely kind of looked to me at least,
31:14SPEAKERI mean, I'm kind of a layman,
31:15SPEAKERI'm not an open source developer, but I follow this stuff
31:17SPEAKERand it kind of did look like some egg on the face
31:19SPEAKERof the FreeBSD community.
31:22SPEAKER- Well, I mean, they caught it
31:22SPEAKERbefore it went out to the public though.
31:24SPEAKER- Yes, obviously, yes, but it did make it through.
31:27SPEAKERIt had been committed.
31:28SPEAKER- Yes, that's true.
31:30SPEAKER- But, and then so what happened with Linux
31:32SPEAKERin a kind of similar situation,
31:33SPEAKERthe University of Minnesota was found to like,
31:35SPEAKERthey essentially referred to it as a study they were running.
31:37SPEAKERThey were intentionally submitting problematic code
31:40SPEAKERto the Linux kernel.
31:41SPEAKERI don't know if it was vulnerabilities
31:42SPEAKERor what the problems were exactly,
31:44SPEAKERbut like they were essentially like kind of testing,
31:48SPEAKERI don't know if this counts as penetration testing,
31:50SPEAKERbut they were really testing the code review processes
31:52SPEAKERof the Linux kernel developers
31:54SPEAKERto see if they could get bad code in there
31:55SPEAKERand they sure enough did.
31:57SPEAKER- And then they got blacklisted from,
31:59SPEAKERwell, sorry, they're banned from posting submitting code
32:03SPEAKERto the Linux kernel indefinitely.
32:04SPEAKER- That was the Linux community's response was,
32:06SPEAKERwell, you can never submit code to the kernel again,
32:08SPEAKERwhich is understandable, but the like-
32:10SPEAKER- Doesn't solve the larger problem, I guess.
32:12SPEAKER- Yeah, I did a fair amount of reading
32:13SPEAKERabout both of these situations at the time
32:15SPEAKERand I think what I got from it was the enlightened position
32:18SPEAKERthat I got from this ultimately was like,
32:21SPEAKERyeah, no shit, some of these vulnerabilities got through
32:23SPEAKERbecause these are like all volunteer communities
32:25SPEAKERwith like the chronic lack of eyeballs
32:28SPEAKERto do proper code review.
32:29SPEAKERAnd like, there's a certain presumption of good faith
32:32SPEAKERon the part of people who are submitting code
32:35SPEAKERto projects like this.
32:36SPEAKER- Yeah.
32:37SPEAKER- And like that doesn't close the,
32:38SPEAKERit doesn't address the issue of like bad actors
32:40SPEAKERnecessarily slipping stuff in there,
32:42SPEAKERbut like they don't really have a choice,
32:43SPEAKERbut to rely on the goodwill of the people
32:45SPEAKERwho are doing work for them.
32:47SPEAKER- Well, I think part of the problem is that if you are,
32:50SPEAKERif you are in a position and have the expertise
32:52SPEAKERto do a code review and look and see if things are,
32:56SPEAKERyou know, working as intended or bad actors or just bugs,
33:00SPEAKERprobably you could also be writing code
33:02SPEAKERand there's always an infinite amount of code to be written,
33:04SPEAKERit seems like.
33:05SPEAKER- Yes, yes.
33:06SPEAKER- This seems like a solution that could easily be solved
33:08SPEAKERby the multi trillion dollar, multiple, sorry,
33:11SPEAKERtrillion dollar companies that use open source software
33:14SPEAKERto make billions and billions of dollars a year
33:16SPEAKERdedicating some resources to this.
33:18SPEAKER- Yes, yes.
33:19SPEAKERBut I mean, you know, that gets into that opens
33:21SPEAKERa different can of worms of like, should corporations,
33:24SPEAKERlike, yes, corporations who are profiting massively
33:26SPEAKERfrom all this free work should support it, but like.
33:29SPEAKER- And they do, in a lot of cases.
33:31SPEAKER- They do, in fact, a lot of them are the biggest
33:32SPEAKERcontributors to these projects in terms of code,
33:35SPEAKERas well as like financial support.
33:37SPEAKERBut then you get into that thorny issue of like,
33:39SPEAKERare corporations exerting undue influence on these projects
33:42SPEAKERby contributing a lot of money to them, you know?
33:44SPEAKER- Well, I mean, they're definitely like, if you,
33:46SPEAKERif you're Google and you hire a developer to write,
33:49SPEAKERyou know, software for the Linux kernel,
33:52SPEAKERyou're definitely exerting influence because, you know,
33:54SPEAKERyou're, you're spending your company's resources
33:57SPEAKERto add human power to the, to the project.
33:59SPEAKER- I, I, I feel like I would draw a distinction
34:01SPEAKERbetween submitting code and offering money
34:04SPEAKERbecause code, code trickles down to everybody.
34:06SPEAKERIf they add features, if they do good work
34:08SPEAKERon those projects, everyone benefits from that directly
34:11SPEAKERby having access to that software, right?
34:12SPEAKERBut like, if they are just pumping a bunch of money
34:15SPEAKERinto things, that's where you get into the weird gray area
34:17SPEAKERof like, are they, you know, are they able to influence
34:20SPEAKERthe people that they are supporting
34:22SPEAKERin a more like, like a fuzzier kind of way?
34:24SPEAKER- That's fair.
34:25SPEAKER- The last thing I was gonna say,
34:26SPEAKERwe didn't get into this enough.
34:27SPEAKERAnd I, I, I, Netgate's response to this stuff
34:29SPEAKERis where the drama really like went into overdrive
34:32SPEAKERbecause they essentially blamed everybody
34:34SPEAKERbut themselves for this stuff.
34:35SPEAKERLike they blamed the WireGuard developer.
34:37SPEAKERThey blamed the other people who like exposed
34:39SPEAKERthe vulnerabilities.
34:40SPEAKERLike they basically treated themselves
34:42SPEAKERlike the victims in this situation.
34:44SPEAKER- They tried to post through it.
34:46SPEAKERThey absolutely tried to blog through it
34:47SPEAKERin like some really long, like, like the PFSense Reddit,
34:52SPEAKERsubreddit was a disaster for like weeks after this.
34:55SPEAKERLike it was nothing but people saying like,
34:57SPEAKERwell, how do I install OpenSense?
34:58SPEAKERLike where's everybody moving to?
35:01SPEAKERLike it was like, it looked like an entire community
35:03SPEAKERabandoning this project in mass.
35:05SPEAKER- Wow.
35:06SPEAKER- They just, they just did not, like the last paragraph
35:09SPEAKERof this, this Netgate blog they put up.
35:11SPEAKERSo what have I learned from this?
35:13SPEAKERI've learned to be a little less trusting.
35:15SPEAKER- Well, that's probably not the right lesson.
35:17SPEAKER- I've learned to be more proactive in defending
35:19SPEAKERagainst people who have ulterior motives.
35:21SPEAKERI've learned that people who emphatically say
35:23SPEAKERthat they're here to help often aren't.
35:25SPEAKERAgain, remember he's talking about the people
35:27SPEAKERwho exposed the vulnerabilities in the product
35:30SPEAKERand code that they themselves commissioned and released.
35:32SPEAKER- Oh, not the person who wrote the bad code.
35:34SPEAKER- No, no, they defended their software author.
35:36SPEAKERThey defended the product.
35:37SPEAKERThey defended all of it.
35:38SPEAKERThey absolutely painted themselves as the victims
35:41SPEAKERand acted like the entire rest of the world
35:44SPEAKERwas out to get them.
35:46SPEAKERLike I'm telling you in terms
35:47SPEAKERof torching your company's reputation.
35:49SPEAKER- It's really impressive in like, in like a month,
35:52SPEAKERa period of like six weeks or something.
35:53SPEAKER- It does not get more dire than this.
35:55SPEAKERLike I was just astonished watching this happen.
35:57SPEAKER- That's a, yeah, that's a choice all right.
35:59SPEAKER- Yeah, for sure.
36:01SPEAKERLooking at the subreddit, it seems to have settled down.
36:04SPEAKERThey seem to, you know, whoever left
36:06SPEAKERprobably was going to leave.
36:07SPEAKERWhoever went to Open Sense or, you know,
36:09SPEAKERViOS or whatever has done so.
36:12SPEAKER- But I mean, presumably there's a bunch of people
36:13SPEAKERwho just buy the boxes off the shelf
36:15SPEAKERand don't know that all this is happening in the back end.
36:18SPEAKER- Yes.
36:19SPEAKER- Speaking of, networking stuff seems to attract
36:21SPEAKERthis kind of steam drop.
36:24SPEAKER(laughing)
36:26SPEAKER- Wow.
36:27SPEAKERThat's exactly.
36:28SPEAKER- That was much louder than I expected.
36:29SPEAKER- That's exactly, well, you have to normalize this later,
36:31SPEAKERso I'll tell you.
36:32SPEAKER- I know this is my problem I've made.
36:34SPEAKER- That's pretty close to the effect
36:36SPEAKERI was actually looking for.
36:38SPEAKERWe'll see how it turns out.
36:39SPEAKERBut yeah, it turns out when you put your,
36:41SPEAKERall of your precious hardware
36:43SPEAKERand the information they're in onto a worldwide network
36:45SPEAKERand give people like poorly guarded points of ingress,
36:50SPEAKERyou know, it leads to a lot of ugly situations.
36:53SPEAKER- Well, it turns out that cloud services are hard.
36:55SPEAKER- Who knew?
36:56SPEAKER- Yeah, yes, I guess so.
36:57SPEAKER- So we're going to talk about ubiquity now, I guess.
37:00SPEAKER- So do you want to step us through this
37:03SPEAKERKrebs on security article?
37:04SPEAKER- Yeah, so this one is interesting
37:07SPEAKER'cause there were, this one has something
37:09SPEAKERwe haven't talked about.
37:10SPEAKERWe have a whistleblower here.
37:11SPEAKER- Yes.
37:13SPEAKER- But it happened, this started in December, 2020
37:19SPEAKERwith a breach that was basically,
37:22SPEAKERbasically the TLDR here is that there was a security breach
37:26SPEAKERof the new cloud service that it seems like the users
37:29SPEAKERof the ubiquity software or hardware
37:31SPEAKERmaybe aren't super keen on in the first place.
37:33SPEAKER- Yeah, ubiquity maker of like kind of prosumer routers
37:36SPEAKERand access points, like sort of one foot.
37:39SPEAKER- Small business, small to mid-sized business.
37:41SPEAKER- Like one foot in the enterprise world,
37:43SPEAKERbut still like affordable and like usable at home.
37:46SPEAKER- Yeah, and they've been moving people
37:48SPEAKERfrom the old line of heart, especially the small,
37:51SPEAKERthe small business side from the old line of hardware
37:53SPEAKERinto these more kind of cloud managed things
37:55SPEAKERthat are more analogous.
37:57SPEAKERYou know, it's the analog of moving from like the Linux,
38:00SPEAKERlike a old Linksys router where you log in
38:02SPEAKERwith a website thing to like a Google home router
38:05SPEAKERor a Eero or something like that
38:06SPEAKERwhere you have like an app on your phone.
38:08SPEAKER- Yeah, we're essentially talking about making an account
38:09SPEAKERon their servers in their system
38:11SPEAKERso that you can access your stuff at home from elsewhere,
38:14SPEAKERbut by proxy through their system, right?
38:17SPEAKERLike they have got credentials and authorization
38:21SPEAKERto get into your network hardware at home.
38:23SPEAKER- And let's see, immediately before all this stuff came out,
38:27SPEAKERlike the community was already starting to get a little upset
38:29SPEAKER'cause they started putting ads in the admin interface.
38:33SPEAKER- So this is like, essentially what we're talking about here
38:36SPEAKERis ubiquity is no good, very bad, weak,
38:39SPEAKERbecause it was literally like two days
38:41SPEAKERbefore this Krebs article.
38:44SPEAKERYeah, people were super mad on places like Reddit
38:46SPEAKERbecause Ubiquity had started,
38:48SPEAKERgranted ads only for their other products,
38:50SPEAKERnot for other companies, but they were upselling,
38:53SPEAKERthey were pushing ad units into the controller software
38:56SPEAKERfor their home network stuff,
38:58SPEAKERupselling you on other more expensive products
39:00SPEAKERthat they make.
39:01SPEAKER- And like, just to be clear,
39:04SPEAKERmy router is probably the very, very, very last place
39:07SPEAKERthat I ever want to see ads, mainly because,
39:11SPEAKERI mean, I have a thing that sits beside my router
39:14SPEAKERthat takes all of the ads out of my network.
39:18SPEAKERSo yeah, please no ads.
39:20SPEAKER- Also it's critical infrastructure.
39:21SPEAKERLike it is, as far as your home network goes,
39:23SPEAKERit's about as critical as it gets.
39:24SPEAKERLike, let's just keep it all business, please.
39:26SPEAKER- Like a large number of our problems
39:28SPEAKERare because in the late nineties,
39:29SPEAKERwe chose to allow advertisers to pay money
39:32SPEAKERto run arbitrary code on our computers.
39:34SPEAKERAnd it turns out that was probably a mistake.
39:36SPEAKERSo anyway, here we are.
39:38SPEAKER- Yes, so that had just happened a couple of days
39:40SPEAKERbefore this Krebs story.
39:41SPEAKERAlso, I will say, like, I think Ubiquiti's fortunes
39:43SPEAKERhave been in decline in a lot of people's eyes
39:45SPEAKERfor like a number of months or years at this point,
39:48SPEAKERbecause like, I have an edge router four that I really like
39:51SPEAKERand they have all but abandoned the edge max line.
39:54SPEAKER- You can't even find them.
39:55SPEAKERLike you have to really dig to find those on your site now.
39:57SPEAKER- Like supposedly all of their engineers,
39:59SPEAKERtheir software engineers left
40:00SPEAKERbecause the version two Linux release for the edge routers
40:03SPEAKERwas a complete disaster, like buggy mess for,
40:06SPEAKERso they've been very poorly supporting
40:08SPEAKERsome of their product lines.
40:09SPEAKERThey're just pushing into this prosumer,
40:10SPEAKERlike really sleek manicured home networking stuff
40:13SPEAKERinstead of the really kind of crusty gray beard stuff
40:15SPEAKERthey used to make, but.
40:17SPEAKER- They still have serial ports on all their hardware?
40:19SPEAKER- Oh, probably on all the newer stuff, I would say.
40:23SPEAKERI do have a serial cable connected to mine.
40:25SPEAKER- So, okay, so here's, on January 11th of this year,
40:29SPEAKERthey released a notice that said they had become aware
40:33SPEAKERof an unauthorized access to certain information, sorry,
40:37SPEAKERcertain of our information technology systems
40:39SPEAKERhosted by a third party cloud provider,
40:41SPEAKERalthough it declined to name the third party.
40:43SPEAKERNow, what they really meant there,
40:45SPEAKERaccording to the whistleblower,
40:47SPEAKERwas the attackers had gained administrative access
40:50SPEAKERto Ubiquiti's servers at Amazon's cloud service,
40:53SPEAKERwhich is like the equivalent of having hardware level access
40:56SPEAKERin a like hardware colo or something like that.
40:59SPEAKERSo they had, so they'd gotten the keys,
41:01SPEAKERthe cryptographic keys that would let people get access
41:05SPEAKERto the VMs that run the cloud service on Amazon.
41:11SPEAKERSo it wasn't an Amazon breach
41:12SPEAKERthat made their machines accessible.
41:14SPEAKERIt was a them breach for their machines
41:16SPEAKERthat were hosted on Amazon, which the words are the same,
41:19SPEAKERbut they're in a different order
41:20SPEAKERthat changes the meaning pretty dramatically.
41:21SPEAKER- I mean, my layman's understanding of this
41:23SPEAKERis they got everything.
41:24SPEAKERLike they got about as much access to this system
41:27SPEAKERas they could get, and it was entirely Ubiquiti's negligence
41:29SPEAKERthat caused it.
41:30SPEAKERFor what seems like a pretty long time, maybe?
41:33SPEAKERLike they knew about, so like one of the rules of this,
41:36SPEAKERin this space, in like the security space,
41:38SPEAKERis that when you find out there's a breach,
41:40SPEAKERyou notify as fast as you can while being safe.
41:45SPEAKERAnd you also take steps like,
41:47SPEAKERoften you'll log into a site and you'll be like,
41:49SPEAKER"Hey, your password, you have to change your password.
41:52SPEAKERHere's why."
41:53SPEAKERAnd then there's a link you probably don't click
41:54SPEAKERthat tells you that they had some sort of breach
41:56SPEAKERor something like that,
41:56SPEAKERand they reset everybody's passwords
41:58SPEAKERso that you can't use the old suspect passwords
42:02SPEAKERto get into the systems.
42:03SPEAKER- Yes.
42:05SPEAKER- So they didn't invalidate all the old passwords.
42:08SPEAKERThey basically popped a thing up that says,
42:10SPEAKER"Hey, you should change your password probably."
42:12SPEAKERAnd the intruders put a couple of back doors in the system,
42:16SPEAKERone which they knew about and told everybody about,
42:19SPEAKERand were like, "Hey, if you send us 50 Bitcoin,
42:22SPEAKERwe'll tell you about the other back door
42:24SPEAKERand not tell anybody about this breach."
42:25SPEAKER- Right.
42:26SPEAKER- It's $2.8 million at the time in US currency.
42:33SPEAKERUbiquiti didn't pay the money.
42:36SPEAKERThey found the second back door eventually,
42:39SPEAKERand they rotated credentials for all employees
42:42SPEAKERbefore they started alerting customers
42:44SPEAKERabout the need to reset the password.
42:46SPEAKERIt took several days, this whole thing.
42:47SPEAKER- And again, to be clear, that notification they put out
42:51SPEAKERthat you should change your password was by no means
42:53SPEAKERadequate to address the actual breach that happened.
42:55SPEAKER- Right, so the problem is at this point,
42:58SPEAKERpresumably every single customer
43:01SPEAKERof the Ubiquiti cloud-managed hardware is...
43:07SPEAKERTheir hardware is potentially at risk at this point.
43:09SPEAKER- Right, like the accusations of this whistleblower
43:12SPEAKERare that the breach was just massively more severe
43:14SPEAKERthan Ubiquiti let on and that they covered it up
43:17SPEAKERto protect their share price, their stock price,
43:19SPEAKERnot in any way to protect the security of their customers.
43:25SPEAKER- So, and since the breach presumably also included
43:28SPEAKERlike firmware source code, 'cause they got access
43:30SPEAKERto their code management and all that stuff,
43:36SPEAKERpresumably they could have installed back doors
43:38SPEAKERon people's routers and stuff like that.
43:40SPEAKERAnd your advice is to ditch all of your old profiles
43:43SPEAKERand rebuild everything from scratch
43:45SPEAKERfrom the security community if you're using these devices.
43:49SPEAKER- If I, let's see, if I understand correctly here,
43:52SPEAKERanother aspect of this is that they did not have
43:55SPEAKERfull kind of access logging set up
43:57SPEAKERon a lot of the database and data stuff
43:58SPEAKERthat was in these instances.
44:00SPEAKER- Well, so they said that they had no evidence
44:02SPEAKERthat consumer information was accessed.
44:04SPEAKER- So that was another one of those
44:05SPEAKERselective omission things, right?
44:06SPEAKERWhere like they had no evidence
44:08SPEAKERthat the information was accessed
44:09SPEAKERbecause they have no way to tell
44:10SPEAKERif the information was accessed or not
44:12SPEAKERbecause they didn't have logging set up on it.
44:14SPEAKER- I mean, okay, so just to be clear,
44:15SPEAKERsometimes not logging stuff is really good.
44:17SPEAKERLike I'm really happy that Signal doesn't run logs
44:21SPEAKERon their, so there's no metadata that describes
44:27SPEAKERhow often you and I communicate on Signal, right?
44:29SPEAKERThat's a good case for not logging.
44:31SPEAKER- Yes, absolutely.
44:32SPEAKER- This is probably a bad case for not logging
44:34SPEAKERfrom what I can tell.
44:35SPEAKERI'm not an expert, doesn't sound good to me.
44:38SPEAKER- I like to spend a lot of time in the networking channel
44:40SPEAKERon our Discord.
44:41SPEAKERThere are a lot of very smart people in there
44:42SPEAKERand a lot of them work in InfoSec
44:44SPEAKERand adjacent networking fields.
44:47SPEAKERI feel like the entire week that this got out,
44:49SPEAKERit was just nothing but like jaws dropping in that channel
44:53SPEAKERat the gross negligence that led to this.
44:56SPEAKERNevermind the like corporate malfeasance
44:58SPEAKERof not informing the customer base properly.
45:00SPEAKERLike people were just like,
45:01SPEAKERand like the comments on this Krebs story
45:03SPEAKERare the same way of people were just like astonished
45:05SPEAKERthat their security was poor enough
45:07SPEAKERto allow this to happen in the first place.
45:09SPEAKER- Well, yeah, so I guess the question is what ended up,
45:12SPEAKERlike there's no, they didn't,
45:14SPEAKERI mean, they kind of posted through it,
45:15SPEAKERbut they posted through it in a slightly smarter way
45:17SPEAKERthan our friends at PF Sense did.
45:20SPEAKERI guess this is the argument against you that,
45:22SPEAKERlike the really the worst thing of all of this
45:24SPEAKERis that I think the initial vector
45:27SPEAKERwas that somebody got access
45:28SPEAKERto a former Ubiquiti IT employee's LastPass account,
45:33SPEAKERwhich had all of these credentials in it.
45:35SPEAKER- Yes.
45:35SPEAKER- And as a result, they were able to like get through this.
45:40SPEAKERThis is a probably an argument for corporations,
45:43SPEAKERespecially people that deal at low level security,
45:45SPEAKERstuff like router and networking hardware people
45:48SPEAKERto maybe pay for corporate,
45:51SPEAKERlike I'm gonna get nuts here,
45:52SPEAKERbut maybe instead of letting somebody
45:54SPEAKERuse their personal LastPass account
45:56SPEAKERto store all of your business in,
45:58SPEAKERmaybe pay for the corporate ones
46:00SPEAKERwho can turn off the account when they quit,
46:02SPEAKERtake that data back, I don't know.
46:05SPEAKER- Ubiquiti made a billion dollars last year
46:06SPEAKERfrom what I'm reading.
46:09SPEAKER- A lot of routers.
46:10SPEAKER- They could probably pay for the, yes.
46:13SPEAKER- I hope that they learn from this,
46:15SPEAKERbut it seems like they maybe haven't.
46:17SPEAKERSo I don't know.
46:18SPEAKER- I don't see any indication that they have.
46:20SPEAKERI think that, again, it seems like they are pivoting
46:22SPEAKERto target a customer base that probably would not know,
46:25SPEAKERcertainly does not read Krebs on security on a daily basis
46:28SPEAKERto know about things like this.
46:29SPEAKER- I do like that they draw lines
46:31SPEAKERbetween which switch is plugged into which device though,
46:33SPEAKERon the fancy tablet UI.
46:36SPEAKER- They've got some nice diagrams.
46:37SPEAKERThey've got some cool stuff, like they've got
46:38SPEAKERsome cool stuff.
46:39SPEAKERLike a lot of people on our, like I said,
46:40SPEAKERI have an edge router and one of their UNIFI access points,
46:42SPEAKERlike I enjoyed using them, like they're not bad products,
46:46SPEAKERbut the leadership of the company seems suspect at best.
46:51SPEAKERI don't anticipate buying any more Ubiquiti products
46:54SPEAKERafter the week of this.
46:56SPEAKERNot that I need any more networking stuff anytime soon, but.
46:58SPEAKER- Yeah, I think it's a fine choice.
47:02SPEAKERWhy is this stuff always network stuff?
47:03SPEAKERCan we talk about the Linksys GPL stuff?
47:06SPEAKER- Sure, I mean, that's probably the oldest example
47:09SPEAKERwe could find.
47:11SPEAKERIt's the first time I remember somebody getting pissed off
47:14SPEAKERwith an actual company versus like some other
47:17SPEAKERopen source project about GPL violations.
47:20SPEAKERAnd I'm sure that there's an older one.
47:22SPEAKERLike I'm absolutely positive that there's stuff,
47:24SPEAKERbut this is a post on the LKML,
47:28SPEAKERwhich I think the Linux kernel maintainer list,
47:31SPEAKERor maybe mailing list, I can't remember.
47:34SPEAKERFrom June 8th, 2003 is the Slashdot post.
47:38SPEAKERBut the post says, sorry for the very lengthy posting,
47:42SPEAKERbut I want to be as precise as possible
47:44SPEAKERin describing this problem.
47:45SPEAKERA while ago I mentioned that the Linksys WRT 54 G wireless
47:48SPEAKERaccess point used several GPL projects in its firmware,
47:50SPEAKERbut did not seem to have any of the source available
47:53SPEAKERor acknowledge the use of the GPL software.
47:55SPEAKERObviously, if you use open source, you know,
47:58SPEAKERGPL licensed software in your projects,
48:02SPEAKERyou're supposed to share the code that you generate
48:05SPEAKERthat's attached to that and everything else downstream.
48:07SPEAKERPublish what you use, et cetera.
48:09SPEAKERFour weeks ago, I spoke with an employee at Linksys
48:11SPEAKERwho confirmed that the system did use Linux
48:12SPEAKERand also mentioned that he would work with his management
48:14SPEAKERto ensure that the source was released.
48:16SPEAKERUnfortunately, my emails to this individual
48:18SPEAKERover the past three weeks have gone unanswered.
48:20SPEAKEROf course, I also tried contacting the Linksys
48:21SPEAKERthrough their common public email accounts,
48:23SPEAKERblah, blah, blah, to no avail.
48:26SPEAKERIt's hard for me to know if the contact
48:27SPEAKERhas just gone on a three week vacation
48:29SPEAKERor has been asked to not answer any more email
48:31SPEAKERon the subject, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
48:34SPEAKERDon't own the project, can't actually test.
48:36SPEAKERThe upshot is, hey, here are the problems.
48:40SPEAKERYou can look in the firmware, you can see what they're using.
48:42SPEAKERYou can do checksums and all that.
48:44SPEAKERAnd there's no upshot.
48:46SPEAKERThis was, I remember talking about this
48:48SPEAKERwhen I was at Maximum PC.
48:49SPEAKERThis was a, like this was,
48:53SPEAKERA, this is the beginning of things like DDDWRT and Tomato,
48:57SPEAKERthe open source router firmwares,
48:59SPEAKER'cause once they realized that,
49:01SPEAKERoh, this is just based on the GPL.
49:03SPEAKERAnd once Linksys eventually came around
49:05SPEAKERand started posting the stuff they were supposed to,
49:07SPEAKERthen people were able to just write their own firmware
49:09SPEAKERand you could get rid of the crappy Linksys software
49:11SPEAKERand run crappy open source software instead.
49:13SPEAKER- Sure.
49:15SPEAKER- I mean, you could do a lot more stuff,
49:16SPEAKERbut it was still, it was rough for a long time.
49:21SPEAKERI just, I don't know.
49:23SPEAKERI mean, there was drama at the time.
49:24SPEAKERI don't think that, I'm sure there was mailing list drama.
49:26SPEAKERI did not dig into the mailing lists here
49:28SPEAKERto see what the LKML had to say
49:31SPEAKERabout the project at the time,
49:33SPEAKERbecause the threads are incredibly lengthy.
49:37SPEAKERLike it's just like, what?
49:39SPEAKERAnd it ranges from like straight indignation to,
49:43SPEAKERoh wait, that means there's drivers
49:46SPEAKERfor all of these Broadcom wireless controllers
49:49SPEAKERthat are in there that we can then roll back up
49:51SPEAKERinto the Linux when they release the source code
49:54SPEAKERfor this stuff.
49:55SPEAKERAnd should we even deal with these people?
49:58SPEAKERThey're clearly monsters and like, you know, the whole thing.
50:00SPEAKER- Yeah, I'll just get back to the same thing
50:02SPEAKERI was talking about of people who work on
50:05SPEAKERand shepherd these projects are very protective of them.
50:08SPEAKER- Especially back then too.
50:09SPEAKERLike GPL was, I mean, GPL wasn't new,
50:11SPEAKERbut Linux was still pretty new.
50:13SPEAKER- Yeah, this was like just a little over 10 years, yeah.
50:15SPEAKER- Yeah.
50:17SPEAKER- I don't know that they're any less protective now.
50:20SPEAKER- Oh no, I'm sure not.
50:21SPEAKERI'm sure not.
50:22SPEAKERSo, I mean, I guess there's a couple,
50:26SPEAKERwe have more scene drama we could get to.
50:27SPEAKERWe're kind of out of time.
50:28SPEAKERWe're getting close though.
50:30SPEAKERWhat are you, like, is there a happy takeaway from this
50:34SPEAKERor is this just like a cost of doing business
50:36SPEAKERin the open source slash, you know,
50:40SPEAKERfor profit business world?
50:42SPEAKER- Yeah, when you ask that question,
50:43SPEAKERnow I'm sitting here trying to think like,
50:44SPEAKERdo you see this kind of drama in the closed source
50:47SPEAKERmore commercial space?
50:49SPEAKERI guess because those companies are closed by nature,
50:51SPEAKERthey are allowed to not let their dirty laundry
50:53SPEAKERout in public, right?
50:55SPEAKER- But you do see like corporate espionage stuff
50:57SPEAKERand you see people like, you see people saying,
50:59SPEAKERoh, hey, you took our blah, blah, blah,
51:02SPEAKERor you're infringing on our copyright
51:03SPEAKERfor your logo or whatever.
51:06SPEAKERBut yeah, it's a weird side effect
51:09SPEAKERof open source specifically.
51:12SPEAKERThere's the FFmpeg versus NewTek thing,
51:15SPEAKERwhich has maybe the most open source community
51:18SPEAKERresponding to a GPL violation response I've ever seen
51:22SPEAKERwhere this person who works in NewTek's like,
51:25SPEAKERhey, we'd love to make this right.
51:26SPEAKERWhat can we do to help?
51:28SPEAKERCan you contact us and let us know what we should be doing?
51:31SPEAKERAnd the person's like, no, I'd rather be writing,
51:33SPEAKERfixing bugs than dealing with you.
51:34SPEAKERYou fucking figure out how to fix the problem that you made.
51:37SPEAKERAlso, this is your problem, not ours.
51:39SPEAKER- If I'm not mistaken,
51:40SPEAKERso NewTek was distributing pre-compiled builds
51:42SPEAKERof binaries of FFmpeg,
51:44SPEAKERwhich is an explicit licensing violation.
51:46SPEAKER- Yes.
51:47SPEAKER- I believe they could have just stopped
51:50SPEAKERincluding those binaries with their SDK
51:53SPEAKERand resolve the problem.
51:54SPEAKERBut the FFmpeg's peoples, if I'm not mistaken,
51:56SPEAKERtheir solution was, hey, why don't you just open source
51:59SPEAKERyour entire library?
52:00SPEAKERLike, just make it free.
52:01SPEAKERJust put all the source code for your library
52:03SPEAKERor closed source library out there.
52:05SPEAKERI believe that was the actual resolution they wanted.
52:07SPEAKERThey were like, expose all your trade secrets.
52:10SPEAKER- Well, I mean, but the point of the GPL,
52:13SPEAKERthis is why a lot of places you're not allowed
52:15SPEAKERto use GPL code, right?
52:17SPEAKERIs 'cause the GPL is, people call it viral.
52:21SPEAKER- I'm not a lawyer, nor am I a licensing person.
52:24SPEAKERWe should have somebody who understands software licensing.
52:26SPEAKER- Come on and talk about this at some point.
52:28SPEAKER- This is the most of this podcast thing ever,
52:30SPEAKERbut I would absolutely spend an hour talking to an expert
52:32SPEAKERabout software licensing.
52:34SPEAKER- I know people we can talk to about that.
52:36SPEAKERBut I feel like a lot of companies I've worked at,
52:40SPEAKERand actually people I consulted with when we were doing FU
52:42SPEAKERwere like, hey, don't use GPL code in your stuff
52:44SPEAKER'cause it'll cause you problems later, potentially.
52:47SPEAKERI was like, okay.
52:48SPEAKERSo we didn't use GPL code.
52:49SPEAKERThis is why MIT license and BSD license and stuff like that
52:51SPEAKERare more permissive and allow you to then
52:53SPEAKERlike use the open source code,
52:55SPEAKERpublish the changes for the code that you're using
52:57SPEAKERand not the changes for all the code that it touches, right?
53:02SPEAKERAnd I mean,
53:07SPEAKERultimately the right thing for NDI probably to do,
53:10SPEAKERI mean, for NewTek to do was to open source NDI
53:13SPEAKER'cause then they would be the standard
53:15SPEAKERand would have had a multi-year headstart
53:17SPEAKERon traversing networks with large IP.
53:20SPEAKERThey would have had a big team of people
53:22SPEAKERworking on their stuff and they probably would have gotten
53:24SPEAKERout in front of the open RTMP stuff
53:26SPEAKERor whatever the new thing is.
53:28SPEAKER- There are multiple, like SRT is not the only one.
53:30SPEAKERIt's just, but it's the one that got open sourced years ago.
53:33SPEAKER- Yeah, it's the post, it's the RTMP.
53:36SPEAKER- It's a successor protocol.
53:36SPEAKER- Successors, yes.
53:37SPEAKER- Yes, but yes, specifically the company that developed that
53:40SPEAKERopen source it and because of that, it's in OBS,
53:43SPEAKERit's in VMIX, like it's in-
53:45SPEAKER- It's everywhere.
53:46SPEAKER- It's in FFmpeg, it's in like everything
53:48SPEAKERthat people use for this stuff
53:50SPEAKERbecause they put the source out.
53:51SPEAKERWhereas like, I mean, NDI is in a lot of that stuff too,
53:53SPEAKERbut like the applications are a lot more inflexible I think,
53:56SPEAKERor like what can be done with it
53:57SPEAKERis entirely a new text discretion,
53:59SPEAKERnot at the discretion of anyone who can download the code
54:02SPEAKERand do something with it.
54:03SPEAKER- Well, yeah, and also it's still limited
54:05SPEAKERto inside your net, you know, one subnet, et cetera,
54:09SPEAKERlike all that kind of stuff.
54:11SPEAKERSo anyway, oh, and also it's made more complicated
54:16SPEAKERby the fact that NDI was sending nasty grams
54:20SPEAKERto open source developers who were reverse engineering
54:23SPEAKERNDI protocol to do open source implementation.
54:27SPEAKER- I think that's where a lot of the ire
54:28SPEAKERactually came from on the part of the FFmpeg people
54:30SPEAKERwas like, well, you are perfectly happy
54:33SPEAKERto cease and desist people who are,
54:34SPEAKERwho you think are violating your product's integrity,
54:37SPEAKERbut then you turn around and use our free code
54:39SPEAKERthat we do for free, however you want
54:41SPEAKERand fly the licensing and whatever.
54:43SPEAKERI'm sad we don't have time to fully dig into the chair drama.
54:47SPEAKER- Maybe that's the patron episode this month.
54:49SPEAKER- Maybe it is.
54:50SPEAKERFor whatever reason, like you said,
54:51SPEAKERall the drama we got into on this one
54:54SPEAKERis around open source projects.
54:55SPEAKERAnd like, even the ones we didn't get into,
54:57SPEAKERlike the stuff that happened with the mister
54:59SPEAKERa few months ago.
55:00SPEAKER- Still open source projects.
55:01SPEAKER- The evil Ram, the bad Ram fiasco with the mister,
55:05SPEAKERstill an open source project.
55:07SPEAKER- That all resolved nicely though, didn't it?
55:08SPEAKERDidn't everybody end up nice?
55:09SPEAKER- They deescalated, they deescalated.
55:11SPEAKERThey, I believe everybody sort of
55:12SPEAKERreached an accord on that one.
55:14SPEAKER- I like that.
55:15SPEAKER- Everybody became more or less friendly again.
55:17SPEAKER- I like deescalation much more than the posting through it.
55:21SPEAKER- Posting through it.
55:22SPEAKERJust to be clear, if this ever happens to you,
55:23SPEAKERdon't post through it.
55:24SPEAKERIt's the wrong way to go, but it never works out.
55:26SPEAKER- No, but the chair drama, I'd, hmm.
55:29SPEAKER- What's, what's the high point?
55:30SPEAKERYou want to save it?
55:31SPEAKER- I'll, the T's, we have unfortunately a little bit
55:35SPEAKERof a short recording window this week,
55:36SPEAKERbut I bought this office chair.
55:39SPEAKERI bought this refurbished COK Sleep V2 a few months ago.
55:44SPEAKERAnd of course, of course I spent a good amount of time
55:47SPEAKERon the, our office chair subreddit.
55:49SPEAKER- The Reddit's number one source
55:51SPEAKERfor fine office chair information.
55:53SPEAKER- Maybe we will save this for the Patreon episode.
55:54SPEAKERI don't know, we should get back to this
55:55SPEAKERbecause it's really insane and hilarious.
55:58SPEAKERBut the, the CEO or one of the high ups
56:02SPEAKERat one of the two companies I was thinking
56:03SPEAKERabout ordering the chair from.
56:04SPEAKER- Yeah.
56:05SPEAKER- And a Smurf account, like an anonymous account,
56:08SPEAKERReddit account, that is universally believed
56:10SPEAKERto be affiliated with the other company
56:13SPEAKERthat I was thinking about buying the chair from.
56:14SPEAKER- What?
56:15SPEAKER- Trolling each other and sniping at each other
56:18SPEAKERin the most juvenile way across that subreddit,
56:20SPEAKERacross like two years of posts,
56:22SPEAKERbecause I was searching for the chair I wanted to buy
56:24SPEAKERto see find posts and see people talking about it.
56:26SPEAKERThis, this Smurf account referring to, I don't know,
56:29SPEAKERactually it is the CEO of Crandall and B Todd
56:31SPEAKERare the two companies.
56:32SPEAKERAnd like the Smurf account referring to the CEO
56:35SPEAKERof B Todd as pizza boy Greg all the time
56:39SPEAKERand mocking them about some legal trouble that they're in.
56:43SPEAKER- Wow.
56:43SPEAKER- And the actual representative of B Todd coming out
56:46SPEAKERand saying like, oh, we were at it again, Crandall,
56:48SPEAKERwhy don't you just post under your real name?
56:50SPEAKERLike calling them out directly for being their competitor
56:54SPEAKERwho was anonymously slandering their company.
56:56SPEAKER- Yeah.
56:57SPEAKER- It's dude, it's like post after post to this stuff.
56:58SPEAKERLike it's crazy.
56:59SPEAKERLike they just like.
57:00SPEAKER- Why, why?
57:01SPEAKER- It was so over the top that you see,
57:02SPEAKERyou look at it and you almost go like,
57:03SPEAKERis this viral marketing?
57:04SPEAKERIs this an ARG?
57:05SPEAKERLike, are they trying to drum up awareness
57:08SPEAKERof both of their companies?
57:09SPEAKERBecause this seems too ridiculous.
57:11SPEAKER- It's the Deus Ex coffee thing.
57:12SPEAKERRemember the day the second, it was the second Deus Ex game,
57:15SPEAKERthe one, the Harvey Smith one,
57:17SPEAKERwhere there were two competing coffee chains
57:21SPEAKERand then you get spoilers, by the way,
57:23SPEAKERfor a 20 year old video game, you get to the end.
57:25SPEAKERIt's the same company that runs both of those coffee chains.
57:28SPEAKER- So in this case, they had done business together before.
57:30SPEAKERThey had done business where I believe like
57:32SPEAKERone was refurbishing chairs for the other
57:34SPEAKERand then the other one was reselling them
57:35SPEAKERand they had had an acrimonious split, I believe.
57:38SPEAKERAnd it's funny because you see reps from both companies,
57:41SPEAKERlike engaging with their customers in the most informative
57:43SPEAKERand jovial way, like they're very, very polite,
57:48SPEAKERvery professional, but then they keep getting
57:50SPEAKERinto these tangles with each other
57:51SPEAKERin the middle of the subreddit.
57:53SPEAKERThese two chair companies trolling each other.
57:55SPEAKER- Oh, you know, seating magnates, you know how they get.
57:58SPEAKERYou get around all that foam
57:59SPEAKERand it just messes with your head, man.
58:01SPEAKER- The high octane world of office chair refurbishing.
58:05SPEAKER- Like you put too many roller blade wheels
58:07SPEAKERon too many chairs, you just can't slow down.
58:09SPEAKER- There's just roller blade wheels and cocaine all night long.
58:13SPEAKER- We are not actually implying that anyone that works
58:15SPEAKERin the office chair refurbishing business
58:17SPEAKERis using roller blade wheels or cocaine.
58:20SPEAKER- No, certainly not.
58:21SPEAKERI'm just, yeah.
58:22SPEAKER- I want to tell you about barbecue drama,
58:23SPEAKERbut I'm gonna save that for the patron episode.
58:25SPEAKERFor our wonderful patrons.
58:27SPEAKER- Yes.
58:28SPEAKER- Who, as always, thank you patrons for supporting the show.
58:33SPEAKERBrad and Will Made a Tech Pod is, as we all know,
58:35SPEAKERa 100% patron supported show.
58:39SPEAKERAnd we continue to do this every week for you all.
58:42SPEAKEROur wonderful patrons, we love you guys.
58:44SPEAKERYou're fantastic.
58:45SPEAKER- Thank you for listening to our nonsense.
58:47SPEAKER- Yeah, and like kind, generous,
58:49SPEAKERand nice smelling, I would say.
58:51SPEAKER- Yeah.
58:52SPEAKER- But a special thanks to our executive producer,
58:55SPEAKERto your patrons, Andrew Slosky, The Bunny Fiend,
58:57SPEAKERJacob Chappell, Joel Krauska, Twinkle Twinkie,
59:00SPEAKERDavid Allen, and James Kenwick.
59:01SPEAKERThank you all so much for your support.
59:03SPEAKERWe appreciate it so, so much.
59:05SPEAKERI had a lovely chat this morning on the Discord, Brad.
59:08SPEAKER- Yeah.
59:09SPEAKER- Yeah, we were talking about gaming chairs.
59:12SPEAKERAnd somebody was like, "Hey, can you do a thing
59:14SPEAKERabout the technology of gaming chairs?"
59:16SPEAKERI was like, "We don't even need to do an episode about that.
59:18SPEAKERI can just tell you right now."
59:19SPEAKERThey're aftermarket car seats
59:21SPEAKERwith wheels and arms glued onto them.
59:24SPEAKER- Is that, are you being, are you generalizing
59:27SPEAKERor are they literal car seats?
59:29SPEAKER- For the most part, the place where the,
59:32SPEAKERthat universal gaming bucket seat
59:34SPEAKERthat everybody on Twitch has,
59:36SPEAKERthey're aftermarket car seats that are re-badged.
59:39SPEAKER- Actual car seats, holy shit.
59:40SPEAKER- With the right frame to put a post on.
59:42SPEAKER- Holy shit.
59:43SPEAKER- And arm rests glued onto them.
59:44SPEAKER- Wow.
59:45SPEAKER- Now there are exceptions.
59:47SPEAKERI believe the Secret Labs folks do actual ergonomic work
59:51SPEAKERand they're like taking task chairs and making them gamery.
59:55SPEAKERThe Herman Miller thing that they did with Logitech
59:58SPEAKERwith the, you know, their crossover chair
1:00:02SPEAKERis a real high-end task chair that just has
1:00:06SPEAKERlike different fabric and a little bit sturdier frame.
1:00:08SPEAKER- That's a $1,500 chair.
1:00:09SPEAKERLike Herman Miller is an actual chair maker.
1:00:11SPEAKER- Yeah, so, but my thing,
1:00:14SPEAKERwe ended up having an interesting conversation
1:00:15SPEAKERabout like the categories where gamer stuff makes sense
1:00:19SPEAKERand the category where gamer stuff is like bad marketing
1:00:21SPEAKERthat just jacks up the price.
1:00:23SPEAKERAnd the takeaway was mice,
1:00:26SPEAKERprobably gamer stuff's pretty good.
1:00:28SPEAKERNobody else needs like weird stuff in mice.
1:00:30SPEAKERMonitors, maybe.
1:00:32SPEAKERVariable refresh rate and stuff like that's pretty good.
1:00:37SPEAKERDesks, less so.
1:00:40SPEAKERKeyboards, maybe, but only for like kind of like,
1:00:42SPEAKERyou know, that's a choice at that point.
1:00:46SPEAKERChairs, probably not.
1:00:47SPEAKERHeadphones, questionable.
1:00:48SPEAKERMy argument with headphones, we're gonna lose some,
1:00:51SPEAKERwe don't have sponsors so I can tell you how I want.
1:00:54SPEAKERThe problem with headphones is that for what
1:00:56SPEAKERa really nice high-end pair of gamer headphones costs,
1:00:58SPEAKERyou can get a professional level headphone
1:01:01SPEAKERthat has a good microphone, good sound,
1:01:03SPEAKERand is probably more comfortable in the longterm,
1:01:06SPEAKERmaybe has a wire.
1:01:07SPEAKERSo anyway, that was the conversation I had this morning
1:01:11SPEAKERon the TechPod Discord.
1:01:12SPEAKERYou can join in too by going to patreon.com/techpod.
1:01:16SPEAKERThat's patreon.com/techpod.
1:01:19SPEAKER- If it weren't for the wonderful patrons on our Discord,
1:01:21SPEAKERI would not really have fully understood
1:01:24SPEAKERthe importance of lumbar support.
1:01:26SPEAKER- Lumbar support's very important, it's good for your back.
1:01:27SPEAKER- It turns out I sit up very straight,
1:01:29SPEAKERI don't have a choice but to sit up very straight
1:01:31SPEAKERin this chair.
1:01:32SPEAKER- Yeah, you need something poking you in the back
1:01:33SPEAKERso you know not to mess up.
1:01:35SPEAKER- That's my, it gets your posture right.
1:01:37SPEAKERThank you patrons for schooling me on this chair.
1:01:40SPEAKER- Love the patrons.
1:01:41SPEAKERWe will be back next week with another episode
1:01:44SPEAKERof Brad and Will Made a TechPod.
1:01:45SPEAKERThank you all for listening.
1:01:46SPEAKERIf you don't subscribe, tell a friend.
1:01:47SPEAKERI love seeing, we get a bunch of really good tweets
1:01:49SPEAKERfrom people that are like, hey, these guys named Brad
1:01:53SPEAKERand Will make a really cool podcast every week
1:01:55SPEAKERand I really like listening to it.
1:01:56SPEAKERI enjoyed the episode about hackers
1:01:58SPEAKERand then the one about the nerds arguing about license stuff
1:02:00SPEAKERwas cool too.
1:02:01SPEAKERLove that stuff, we love seeing those.
1:02:04SPEAKERAbsolutely, have a wonderful week folks.