86: 42U or Bust

00:00SPEAKER- Brad, I think I need a rack.

00:01SPEAKER- Are you sure?

00:02SPEAKERAre you ready to take your first step into this world?

00:04SPEAKER- Look, I need to rewire my desk again

00:07SPEAKER'cause my headphone microphone is picking up noise

00:09SPEAKERfrom something and I've moved the cable as much as I can

00:12SPEAKERand I can't figure out where it's coming from.

00:14SPEAKERSo I think the only solution for this is a rack.

00:17SPEAKER- You know what they say, don't build out, build up, right?

00:19SPEAKER- Look, I could put the Stream PC in there.

00:21SPEAKERI could put the audio mixer in there.

00:22SPEAKERI could put the headphone amplifier in there.

00:24SPEAKERI could get a compressor.

00:27SPEAKERLike there's, a rack is a world of possibility.

00:29SPEAKER- How many U's are you thinking?

00:31SPEAKER- Look, I think probably like 16 maybe at most.

00:35SPEAKER- Come on, man.

00:36SPEAKER- What?

00:36SPEAKER- 42 U or bust.

00:38SPEAKER- My floor can't support 42 U's.

00:41SPEAKER- Maybe you just don't want it bad enough.

00:42SPEAKER- Man, I could reinforce the floor.

00:44SPEAKER- What if we brought in an expert opinion on rack mounts?

00:46SPEAKERMaybe we could get a little hands-on studio experience.

00:50SPEAKER- Is that my cue?

00:52SPEAKERIs that my cue?

00:53SPEAKERIs that, am I ready to rack the loaded baby?

00:55SPEAKERHere we go.

00:56SPEAKER- Dude, your family, you get to talk whenever you want.

00:59SPEAKER- Oh, okay.

00:59SPEAKERI was doing the thing.

01:00SPEAKERLike I don't talk until the, you know, I get the intro.

01:05SPEAKERI have three racks in this basement.

01:08SPEAKER- Three racks?

01:09SPEAKER- I've got my networking rack, which is mounted to a wall.

01:12SPEAKERI've got my floor rack,

01:14SPEAKERwhich has my NAS and my universal power supply.

01:18SPEAKERAnd then my desk that I have has one,

01:21SPEAKERlike one RU units for compressors and stuff on it.

01:25SPEAKER- God, I didn't know you had a network rack.

01:27SPEAKER- I have a network rack.

01:28SPEAKER- You did?

01:29SPEAKER- I've got a net gear 24 port rack switch

01:33SPEAKERmounted to my desk.

01:34SPEAKERHow cool is that?

01:35SPEAKER- Wow.

01:36SPEAKER- Did you rack the edge router?

01:38SPEAKERDid you get the little face plate?

01:39SPEAKER- Yes, of course I did.

01:41SPEAKERThat's the whole reason to buy a rack router

01:43SPEAKERis so you get the ears for everything.

01:44SPEAKERThen you start.

01:45SPEAKER- That's the whole reason I have a house

01:46SPEAKERas far as I'm concerned.

01:48SPEAKERIt's just to put your rack in.

01:50SPEAKER- That edge router is like a quarter of the length

01:53SPEAKERof a width of a rack.

01:54SPEAKERAnd now it sits in an enclosure, a little hug of a rack.

01:58SPEAKERIt's so small.

01:59SPEAKEROf course I racked it.

02:00SPEAKER- Oh, that's incredible.

02:01SPEAKER- I looked the other day at like laser cut plans

02:04SPEAKERto make a rack rack mount for like four pies.

02:09SPEAKERLike you can just build a platform that you screw them into.

02:12SPEAKERAnd then you have the wires coming out of the front

02:14SPEAKERon extenders.

02:16SPEAKERSo you can have like four pies that are just all the ports

02:18SPEAKERare on the front.

02:19SPEAKERAnd I'm like, I've never wanted anything more than this.

02:22SPEAKERThis looks really fun.

02:23SPEAKER- Get your pie hole in there and your nut server in there.

02:27SPEAKER- The problem with having a rack,

02:28SPEAKERI'm gonna tell you is you wanna fill it.

02:32SPEAKERSo like if you want more rack,

02:34SPEAKERyou'll be like, if you get yourself a 24

02:36SPEAKERor you get yourself one of the big monsters

02:38SPEAKERyou're gonna be like, I need more rack servers.

02:41SPEAKERI just got, I don't know why,

02:42SPEAKERbut I just need more computers to put.

02:44SPEAKERWhat else can I put in this rack?

02:45SPEAKER'Cause it's too empty in here.

02:46SPEAKERYou'll just want everything forever.

02:48SPEAKER- I've never had more basement envy

02:50SPEAKERthan talking to you Vinny, like living in California.

02:53SPEAKERA basement is an unattainable dream.

02:55SPEAKERAnd like just having like a room,

02:59SPEAKERlike having that extra room seems really good.

03:02SPEAKER- Well, let me help you out here for a second.

03:05SPEAKERIf you say your toilet overflows,

03:08SPEAKERwhere does that water go in your house?

03:10SPEAKER- Into the kitchen.

03:11SPEAKER- Okay, oh, is it upstairs?

03:13SPEAKER- We only have one floor.

03:15SPEAKER- Okay, so if the toilet overflows,

03:17SPEAKERwhere does it go when it seeps through the floor?

03:19SPEAKER- Crawl space.

03:20SPEAKERSo then it smells up the whole house.

03:22SPEAKER- So imagine that stuff all falling into your basement

03:26SPEAKERwhere your server is or on your head.

03:28SPEAKER- I mean, that's just gravity.

03:29SPEAKER- Because there's nowhere else for it to go at that point.

03:32SPEAKERYou're underneath the house now in the kids,

03:37SPEAKERsomething happening up there.

03:39SPEAKER(laughing)

03:41SPEAKERIt's got real stinky in here real quick.

03:45SPEAKER- I, you know, I'm jealous of your 24 port switch,

03:47SPEAKERbut I didn't think to ask how it smells.

03:50SPEAKER- It's fine, you know, you can disinfect things,

03:55SPEAKERyou clean them.

03:56SPEAKERIt was a, you learn where everything is

03:58SPEAKERin the upstairs pretty quickly.

04:00SPEAKEROkay, this needs to move.

04:01SPEAKERThis is underneath the sink.

04:04SPEAKERThis is underneath the toilet.

04:05SPEAKERDidn't realize that, but here we go.

04:07SPEAKER- Never, never, never put your rack under the toilet.

04:11SPEAKER- No.

04:12SPEAKER(upbeat music)

04:20SPEAKER(upbeat music continues)

04:42SPEAKER- Welcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.

04:45SPEAKERI'm Will.

04:45SPEAKER- I'm Brad.

04:46SPEAKER- I wanted to introduce you as with me, as always,

04:48SPEAKERas Garth this week, Brad.

04:49SPEAKER- I do too.

04:50SPEAKER- Because of your incredible main.

04:52SPEAKER- I have had some reservations about putting that out

04:55SPEAKERon the internet for all time.

04:56SPEAKERAs I learned minutes later, the internet is forever.

05:00SPEAKER- Yeah, you knew that already.

05:02SPEAKER- No matter how old your video reviews are,

05:04SPEAKERthey never go away.

05:05SPEAKER- With us this week, Vinny Caravella,

05:08SPEAKERwho is one of my favorite human beings in the world.

05:11SPEAKER- Mine too.

05:12SPEAKER- Recently unemployed, it turns out.

05:13SPEAKERHello, hello Vincenzo, welcome.

05:16SPEAKER- Yes, thank you and thank you for the kind words.

05:18SPEAKERYou guys are some of my favorites as well.

05:20SPEAKERIt's just like, you know, doing this podcast here.

05:23SPEAKERIt's only been decades, it's been a long time.

05:27SPEAKERIt's, you know, whether we're at home and offices

05:31SPEAKERin California, some things never change.

05:34SPEAKERGood people and good podcasts.

05:35SPEAKER- Yeah.

05:36SPEAKER- That's right.

05:37SPEAKER- I mean, what are we like plus 18 hours

05:39SPEAKERfrom the last internet content that we've produced together?

05:42SPEAKER- Even that, probably not, probably not.

05:45SPEAKERWe've done that now jobless and yet here we are.

05:48SPEAKER(laughing)

05:50SPEAKERPodcasts, I just can't quit you.

05:52SPEAKER- Thank you guys for taking your first day off of work

05:55SPEAKERin like 20 years and like sleeping in till, you know,

05:59SPEAKERthe ungodly hour at which we started.

06:01SPEAKERWell, Vinny, you're on these

06:02SPEAKER'cause you've been up for a day now,

06:04SPEAKERbut like, yeah, Brad, thanks for getting up early

06:06SPEAKERto record the podcast, my stuff's busy today.

06:09SPEAKER- This is great.

06:10SPEAKERI feel like I'm like, this is amazing.

06:11SPEAKERI haven't had this in a long time.

06:13SPEAKERI feel like I'm some kind of like podcast Ronan or something.

06:15SPEAKERI'm just kind of going around, I can go wherever I want.

06:20SPEAKER- Just a night errands, just roaming the land,

06:22SPEAKERdoing the deeds for the peasantry.

06:24SPEAKER- What are we talking about here?

06:25SPEAKER- No gods, no masters, Vinny Caravella.

06:28SPEAKER- What do you do here?

06:29SPEAKERYou restore old matchbox cars?

06:30SPEAKERSure, I'll sit down and talk about that for a while.

06:32SPEAKERHow do you get the paint job on those?

06:33SPEAKERThat's amazing.

06:34SPEAKERHey, you got to rebuild the motorcycle.

06:35SPEAKERCan I sit in on that?

06:36SPEAKERThat's cool.

06:37SPEAKER- What do you know about the 5994?

06:39SPEAKER- How do you make asphalt?

06:41SPEAKERLet's talk about it, let's get in there.

06:43SPEAKER- Have you watched that tool refinishing channel?

06:46SPEAKER- I have watched a lot of refinishing channels,

06:48SPEAKERmaybe, so maybe, maybe.

06:50SPEAKER- Okay, I think there's a lot of them at this point.

06:52SPEAKER- I love watching YouTube videos of people

06:56SPEAKERwho shoot something beautifully.

06:58SPEAKEROkay, I have watched enough to really want to get

07:03SPEAKERinto nickel plating in my basement or outside

07:06SPEAKERto be like, okay, look, everybody's looks like

07:09SPEAKERthey just got like a Marine battery or a car battery,

07:12SPEAKERa hunk of nickel, I could do this, we could do this.

07:15SPEAKERI've got two, at least two power supplies

07:19SPEAKERthat are using my electronics set up, let's do it, baby.

07:21SPEAKER- I mean, at that point you're basically

07:22SPEAKERjust performing alchemy, right?

07:23SPEAKERLike you're dipping something into a liquid

07:25SPEAKERand then applying electricity and the magic comes out.

07:27SPEAKER- The liquids are bad and you end up with soluble metals

07:29SPEAKERand those are bad, you do not want to do this, Vinny,

07:31SPEAKERI'm telling you no. - Let's do it.

07:32SPEAKERSo there's a lot of chloride, sodium chloride,

07:35SPEAKERI don't know, stuff that hydrochloric acid,

07:37SPEAKERI've heard that's bad, but like, listen, we'll get in there.

07:40SPEAKERYou put one metal in and then you put electricity in

07:42SPEAKERand it goes on the other metal and that's-

07:45SPEAKER- Did you watch the, I sent you a video a few months ago

07:47SPEAKERof a guy restoring an old 60s Soviet motorcycle.

07:51SPEAKERDid you watch that? - That had a lot of chemicals.

07:52SPEAKERThat was a lot of chemicals.

07:53SPEAKER- That was the thing I came out of that,

07:54SPEAKERlike it was an amazing like kind of machine shop

07:56SPEAKERhe had going there, but it was the chemicals that I came up,

07:58SPEAKERlike he was using like linseed oil at one point

08:00SPEAKERand he was like mixing- - That's fine.

08:02SPEAKERThere's the stuff that just has the triple Xs on it

08:04SPEAKERthat you need to stay away from.

08:05SPEAKER- Right, so it was a real scary looking,

08:06SPEAKERlike he stuck the dipper in there

08:08SPEAKERand I expected it to just like melt off, right?

08:10SPEAKER- We have some people in the Discord

08:13SPEAKERand in my Twitch community who like work

08:15SPEAKERin like fab wafer manufacturer

08:17SPEAKERand the chemicals that he talks at,

08:19SPEAKERlike he talks about having cryogenic hydrofluoric acid,

08:22SPEAKERwhich is maybe the scariest combination

08:24SPEAKERof words I've ever heard,

08:26SPEAKERbecause like hydrofluoric acid is one of those ones

08:29SPEAKERthat like, it just reacts with everything,

08:31SPEAKERlike glass, like silicone, anything you put it with,

08:35SPEAKERit's gonna do bad things too.

08:37SPEAKERAnd I just don't want anything to do with that stuff,

08:40SPEAKERit's really scary, so.

08:42SPEAKER- But you hit a point, you know,

08:43SPEAKERyou hit a point in having old stuff around,

08:47SPEAKERold tools, old metal things where you're like,

08:51SPEAKERyou know, the next step is getting a sandblaster

08:54SPEAKERand then replating this thing,

08:55SPEAKER'cause the nickel chips on this old thing

08:57SPEAKERthat I happen to have in a drawer and I'm old

09:01SPEAKERand if somebody got thrown me away, no, replate me.

09:04SPEAKER- There's something kind of romantic about that to me

09:07SPEAKERof like, you know what, like the original tool,

09:08SPEAKERyou know, stuff made out of metal,

09:09SPEAKERlike stuff that has worked and manufactured really well,

09:12SPEAKERit's like the original tool is still under there,

09:14SPEAKERyou know, like it might be rusted,

09:15SPEAKERit might be a little creaky,

09:16SPEAKERbut like that thing can be what it once was again,

09:19SPEAKERif you just put a little elbow grease into it.

09:20SPEAKER- Well, it's one of those things like,

09:22SPEAKERwhen we used to talk about this with Adam on Still Entitled,

09:25SPEAKERbut like the old machine shop stuff,

09:27SPEAKERlike the old lathes and old mills and stuff like that,

09:30SPEAKERthere's a robust ecosystem of like bolting on CNC things

09:34SPEAKERand machine and like modern, super precise digital tooling

09:39SPEAKERso that you can control these old analog,

09:41SPEAKERlike 50 year old mills and lathes,

09:44SPEAKERbut with like digital precision.

09:46SPEAKERAnd those are, it's fantastic, there's no downside.

09:50SPEAKER- The earliest sign that we had assembled

09:52SPEAKERa cool community of people on our Discord

09:53SPEAKERwas when I saw a guy talking about 3D printing

09:56SPEAKERa replacement part for his washing machine.

09:59SPEAKER- Yeah.

10:00SPEAKER- It's like, oh wow, like 3D printer

10:01SPEAKERis actually a practical tool if you know what you're doing,

10:03SPEAKERit's like, you're not sitting there making

10:04SPEAKERlike figurines of Goku, you're fixing a shit

10:07SPEAKERaround your house with this thing.

10:09SPEAKER- What if the figurine of Goku

10:10SPEAKERwas the thing that fixes his washing machine?

10:12SPEAKER- What if your washing machine knob is Goku's face?

10:14SPEAKER- Okay, that is now the actual reason to own a house for me.

10:18SPEAKER- My krillin broke, I'm gonna go forget a new one.

10:22SPEAKER- Forget the rack mount, so like I guess our topic this week

10:25SPEAKERis sort of, we're just kind of gonna look it back,

10:27SPEAKERyou know, we're all whiskey media alumni here

10:31SPEAKERand we thought, you know, hey, that was a long time ago

10:33SPEAKERat this point and why don't we kind of look back

10:35SPEAKERat like the tech end of starting that thing up

10:37SPEAKERand like all the kind of video production stuff

10:39SPEAKERwe got into back then and like how things have changed and.

10:42SPEAKER- Well--

10:43SPEAKER- Sure, sure, I will say my memory is terrible

10:45SPEAKERas is people who know who I am and listen to me,

10:47SPEAKERI have a terrible, terrible memory

10:49SPEAKERbut I do love video production.

10:51SPEAKER- I was gonna say, we should probably explain this

10:53SPEAKERfor people who maybe don't come from the giant bomb side

10:56SPEAKERof this family 'cause I feel like the last week

10:59SPEAKERin the Discord was probably really confusing for people.

11:02SPEAKER- It's fair.

11:03SPEAKER- Who aren't super familiar with giant bomb.

11:05SPEAKER- Right, and even tested fans, there are people

11:06SPEAKERwho didn't come along until after the split and the sell off.

11:09SPEAKER- Yeah, so when we started testing,

11:11SPEAKERwhen Norman and I started testing in 2010,

11:13SPEAKERwe started it with this company called Whiskey Media

11:15SPEAKERwhich at the time was, you know, some ex CNET alums

11:19SPEAKERwho had forked off from CNET and made this website

11:22SPEAKERcalled giant bomb and there was Comic-Fine

11:24SPEAKERand other sites as well but the giant bomb community

11:27SPEAKERwhere Brad and Vinny and Jeff and Ryan

11:31SPEAKERand later Alex and Rory came from was formative

11:36SPEAKERfor how we set up tested.

11:37SPEAKERLike we set up tested in the model of giant bomb.

11:40SPEAKERYou know, we wanted to do editorial content

11:42SPEAKERand video content and have a Wiki that had all the stuff

11:45SPEAKERyou'd wanna know about it.

11:46SPEAKERI'm not still bitter about that.

11:48SPEAKER- Did you ever get the Wiki?

11:49SPEAKER- No.

11:50SPEAKER(laughing)

11:51SPEAKER- I didn't think so, I'm sorry.

11:53SPEAKER- Somebody made one on Wikia

11:54SPEAKERand like that was the best we ever got so.

11:57SPEAKER- We're not here to open old wounds.

11:58SPEAKERWe're here to salve them, to patch them over.

12:01SPEAKER- But I mean, the point of like our approach

12:04SPEAKERto video at tested was directly shaped

12:06SPEAKERby what you guys did at giant bomb in terms of like,

12:09SPEAKERyou know, thinking about how you can make the most content

12:13SPEAKERthat's good with the least people and, you know,

12:17SPEAKERand still maintain like the base level

12:20SPEAKERof what you wanna do and like the thing that was shocking

12:23SPEAKERto me when I came in there is that you guys were doing

12:25SPEAKERso much with like just kind of off the shelf stuff

12:28SPEAKERthat was glued together in weird and interesting ways

12:32SPEAKERand it wouldn't have been possible at any other point.

12:34SPEAKERLike now it's easy 'cause we all have OBS

12:36SPEAKERand you can buy a capture card

12:37SPEAKERwith four HDMI ports or whatever.

12:39SPEAKERBut back then capturing like HDMI was hard

12:42SPEAKERand we were all learning how to do that stuff.

12:45SPEAKERSo it kind of made it up as we went along.

12:47SPEAKERSo it was really interesting to me.

12:49SPEAKER- Yeah, you said something before this

12:51SPEAKERthat like I knew in a general sense

12:52SPEAKERbut when you put a number on it,

12:53SPEAKERit really kind of blew my mind

12:54SPEAKERthat the studio we had at the beginning of that thing,

12:57SPEAKERwhat did you say, like 10 years prior to "Giant Bomb"

12:59SPEAKERstarting would have been like a million dollar studio

13:01SPEAKERor something? - At least, I think.

13:02SPEAKERRight, Vinny?

13:04SPEAKER- It would have been in the hundreds of thousands.

13:06SPEAKERWell, to do, so should we just get into it then?

13:09SPEAKER- Yeah, let's get into it. - Absolutely.

13:10SPEAKER- Yeah, so I should say that I was there for, you know,

13:13SPEAKERI was doing the video production for Whiskey

13:15SPEAKERduring a lot of that time.

13:16SPEAKERI had come from GameSpot before that,

13:19SPEAKERhad done some production stuff, you know,

13:22SPEAKERfor TV, a little bit of independent stuff.

13:26SPEAKERSo it's, you know, I got my start logging tapes, right?

13:29SPEAKERAs a kind of assistant editor,

13:31SPEAKERsomebody bringing the tapes. - What does that mean, Vinny?

13:33SPEAKER- So that means that somebody comes back from a shoot

13:35SPEAKERand they give it to your kind of low man on the totem pole

13:38SPEAKERand you watch the tape with either a pencil and paper

13:42SPEAKERor you do it in the program in final cut

13:45SPEAKERand you like every 20 seconds,

13:47SPEAKERevery whatever you're like, person smiles.

13:52SPEAKER- No kidding, that level of detail?

13:54SPEAKERHoly shot. - Well, you know,

13:55SPEAKERit depends on what you're logging for, right?

13:56SPEAKERLike if you're wanting, need reaction shots or whatever,

13:59SPEAKERor like Will talks about how he worked at Whiskey,

14:04SPEAKERzero, 10, zero, zero, one, zero, two.

14:06SPEAKERYou know, like Brad then talks about,

14:09SPEAKERwow, is that really the level of detail?

14:10SPEAKERYou know, zero, five, you know, that's, you know,

14:13SPEAKERyou log it down and then you,

14:17SPEAKERso you can hand it off to somebody

14:18SPEAKERwho's gonna do an edit, right?

14:19SPEAKERAnd be like, I need a shot.

14:20SPEAKERI need to know where Will talks about this thing.

14:22SPEAKERSo that's where I kind of got my start

14:24SPEAKERand then went in from there.

14:27SPEAKERBut talking about the studio, two very big things happened.

14:33SPEAKERThe equipment went, just turned into computers.

14:38SPEAKERSo all the equipment that you used,

14:40SPEAKERthe video switcher was no longer hitting a button

14:43SPEAKERthat made two contacts join

14:46SPEAKERto push the video into something else.

14:49SPEAKERIt was software happening that a computer was running.

14:53SPEAKERAnd so all of the things,

14:54SPEAKERthe seven different things you needed to do

14:56SPEAKERall got rolled up into a computer.

14:58SPEAKERAnd that also, if you're talking about smaller scale stuff,

15:01SPEAKERI'm sure in broadcast centers, this is not the case,

15:03SPEAKERbut that meant you then didn't need five people as well.

15:08SPEAKERAnd I think for better or worse,

15:10SPEAKERbecause everyone who's used a computer

15:13SPEAKERknows that it crashes, you're running all this software.

15:16SPEAKERLike when a video switcher used to crash or lock up,

15:19SPEAKERyou were kind of stuck with the signal open, right?

15:21SPEAKERThey had fail-safes on good ones.

15:23SPEAKERAnd they, these really expensive switchers

15:25SPEAKERthat would be like, oh, okay, something locked up

15:27SPEAKERbecause we had this little LCD screen

15:30SPEAKERand it would be like, ah, it's frozen.

15:32SPEAKERBut like you're still mechanically switching stuff.

15:35SPEAKERNow OBS locks up, forget it.

15:38SPEAKERYou gotta reboot or it crashes, the stream goes down.

15:41SPEAKERSo that stuff, you used to have a video switcher,

15:44SPEAKERor at least in the GameSpot Studio even,

15:46SPEAKER'cause that was built out as a kind of broadcast studio.

15:48SPEAKERA video switcher, somebody with another computer

15:51SPEAKERthat costs thousands, tens of thousands of dollars

15:54SPEAKERdoing overlay graphics.

15:55SPEAKERSomebody had another computer doing audio.

15:58SPEAKERSomebody had another, just a DVR doing video recording

16:02SPEAKERfor the thing, making sure that's all going.

16:04SPEAKERAnd then there's another thing just doing the streaming.

16:07SPEAKERAnd eventually that all got rolled up into just a computer.

16:10SPEAKER- One box.

16:11SPEAKER- Yeah, one box where somebody was like doing the audio,

16:14SPEAKEReven doing the audio.

16:16SPEAKERThis was the last holdout I had was,

16:18SPEAKERI don't know if you remember, Brad, at Giant Bomb,

16:21SPEAKERDrew used to do the audio

16:22SPEAKERand one person would do the switching.

16:23SPEAKERIt was the last holdout I had that was like,

16:25SPEAKERthis is still a two person operation.

16:27SPEAKEROne person has to listen to the audio

16:29SPEAKERand one person has to do the thing.

16:31SPEAKER- That's kind of the problem, right?

16:32SPEAKERBecause you can condense functionality into a box

16:35SPEAKERas much as you want.

16:36SPEAKERDoing more with less is great

16:37SPEAKERand all like squeezing blood from a stone,

16:39SPEAKERbut you're still one person with only one attention span

16:41SPEAKERand one capacity to multitask, right?

16:43SPEAKERAt a certain point, you've probably got more functionality

16:46SPEAKERthan you can keep up with realistically by yourself, right?

16:49SPEAKER- The cognitive load is high.

16:51SPEAKER- Right, yes, that.

16:52SPEAKER- Yes, if you have some dedicated audio,

16:56SPEAKERit's always gonna be better

16:57SPEAKERif you have a dedicated somebody, right?

16:58SPEAKEREven on the graphics front, even on titles,

17:00SPEAKEReven on, I would still never want to do

17:04SPEAKERa professional production as a one man show

17:07SPEAKERand even on something like a TriCaster or in Vmix.

17:11SPEAKERThere's too much juggling.

17:12SPEAKERWhile you're getting the title set up,

17:14SPEAKERsomebody is tapping their mic or doing something

17:16SPEAKERor you have to mute a mic or change a shot

17:19SPEAKERor you need a camera op to go in there and change focus

17:23SPEAKERor go get it.

17:25SPEAKERThere's a lot of people and it changed.

17:30SPEAKERIt was funny, Will, you said this earlier

17:31SPEAKERof being able to do this from home.

17:35SPEAKERI've always told people who ask for advice on this stuff

17:38SPEAKERand my experience, people know tons more than me

17:40SPEAKERabout the home streaming at this point,

17:42SPEAKERjust chapters of books that I am missing.

17:45SPEAKERBut one person is easy.

17:48SPEAKERTwo people in the same room, exponentially harder.

17:52SPEAKERLike suddenly you have to split audio.

17:54SPEAKERYou have to make sure mics aren't picking each other up.

17:57SPEAKERYou have to worry about delay.

17:58SPEAKERYou have to worry, hey, can the other person hear me

18:01SPEAKERmaybe without hearing themselves?

18:02SPEAKERLike you have to worry about all this other,

18:04SPEAKERlike putting your headphones on

18:06SPEAKERand hitting stream on your computer, easy, go for it.

18:10SPEAKERAs soon as you have somebody else in the room, harder.

18:12SPEAKER- Well, like I tried to do a show last year,

18:15SPEAKERmaybe earlier this year, time is hazy,

18:18SPEAKERwhere we were playing a board game and I was trying

18:23SPEAKERto use NDI with Skype, should be straightforward,

18:26SPEAKERto pipe in everybody's headshots from Skype into OBS

18:29SPEAKERand then stream out this board game.

18:32SPEAKERAnd I could get it so that everybody could see everybody else

18:36SPEAKERand hear everybody else write.

18:38SPEAKERAnd I could get all that stuff onto the feed,

18:40SPEAKERbut the lip sync on the audio and the video

18:42SPEAKERwas never right for anybody but me.

18:44SPEAKERAnd I eventually just stopped doing it.

18:46SPEAKER'Cause I was like, I need like,

18:47SPEAKERin order to do this realistically,

18:48SPEAKERI need like somebody operating the delays on OBS

18:52SPEAKERto kind of ride those delays as you're going.

18:56SPEAKEROtherwise it's always gonna be,

18:57SPEAKERit's always gonna be janky and out of sync.

18:59SPEAKERAnd, you know, it just wasn't worth, it wasn't worth doing.

19:03SPEAKERAnd you're right, it's like one person, no problem.

19:06SPEAKERTwo people even, like when I sit down with my daughter

19:08SPEAKERand we play Spelunky or something and we're both plugged

19:10SPEAKERinto the same audio mixer and we have the same audio feed,

19:13SPEAKERno problem.

19:14SPEAKERThe moment she wants her own audio feed

19:16SPEAKERso she can hear the sounds from her game

19:17SPEAKERand I hear the sounds from my game, I'm hosed.

19:19SPEAKERThere's nothing I can do to make that work.

19:21SPEAKER- Yeah, oh, so even at that point though,

19:23SPEAKERyou have an audio mixer.

19:25SPEAKERSo you're like, even for two,

19:26SPEAKERlike you're already a step beyond the, you know,

19:29SPEAKERperson who just has a computer and is like,

19:30SPEAKERhow do I stream, right?

19:31SPEAKERAnd then going from how do I stream

19:34SPEAKERto having somebody sit next to me

19:36SPEAKERand sit next to me and join me on this thing is like,

19:38SPEAKERoh, okay, now I need some kind of headphone splitter.

19:41SPEAKERDo I go in for the audio mixer?

19:44SPEAKERYou know, how, you know, even doing this stuff

19:46SPEAKERthrough Skype is, or, you know, whatever, Zoom,

19:49SPEAKERwhatever people are doing.

19:51SPEAKERI think everybody got a little taste of it

19:53SPEAKERduring a lockdown and stuff where it's just like,

19:55SPEAKERyou're muted, you're not, you're blowing out.

19:58SPEAKERAre you using the right microphone?

20:00SPEAKERIs the camera on?

20:01SPEAKERSo I feel like everybody got a little video production taste

20:03SPEAKERof just like, you're cutting out.

20:05SPEAKERNo, you stay away from their mic.

20:06SPEAKERI can't hear you.

20:07SPEAKER- It was like a whole second job

20:09SPEAKERfor the first few months last year

20:10SPEAKERto just keep that end of it running on your own, right?

20:13SPEAKERLike I was spending hours a week crawling around

20:15SPEAKERunder my desk, like sticking cables all over the place

20:18SPEAKERand dealing with audio mixing and it was a lot.

20:20SPEAKER- At the same time, like I loved watching like talk news,

20:24SPEAKERlike Maddow and stuff to watch them figure out

20:26SPEAKERhow to do all this stuff that we'd been doing for years.

20:29SPEAKERLike it was so fun watching them figure out

20:30SPEAKERhow to get some, how, like I feel so bad

20:33SPEAKERfor those production teams because they had to get people

20:36SPEAKERwho have no technical expertise whatsoever

20:38SPEAKERand teach them how to turn on,

20:41SPEAKERyou know, how to get decent audio out of AirPods

20:44SPEAKERand how to like white balance their webcam

20:46SPEAKERso they don't look like they're in a,

20:48SPEAKERon the surface of the sun or something.

20:50SPEAKERAnd it was, yeah, it was really fun.

20:53SPEAKERAnyway, we should get into like,

20:56SPEAKERyou know, like where you guys started.

20:59SPEAKERLike I remember when I, so I started in like early 2010

21:03SPEAKERand we were still in the Sausalito office.

21:05SPEAKERYou guys were kind of isolated down in the basement

21:07SPEAKERand I was a little afraid of you when we first came in

21:09SPEAKER'cause I was like, what, those guys, like I knew Brad.

21:12SPEAKERI knew Brad and I like met Jeff, but Jeff was like this guy

21:16SPEAKERand I didn't know you at all Vinny and you were scary

21:18SPEAKER'cause you were Italian, you were from New York

21:19SPEAKERand you like, you were very intimidating at that point.

21:23SPEAKERLike I would see you out when you were,

21:26SPEAKERanyway, you were outside a lot.

21:28SPEAKER- I kind of felt the same way about the upstairs to be fair.

21:30SPEAKERI think it was all the glass up there,

21:31SPEAKERit just felt very cold and sterile,

21:33SPEAKERbut also that's where all the business happened, you know?

21:35SPEAKERIt's like, I didn't want to know about any of that stuff.

21:38SPEAKER- I saw my leather jacket and, you know,

21:40SPEAKERI just kind of put my leather jacket on and, you know,

21:43SPEAKERback when I had hair, it was a much more threatening,

21:47SPEAKERthreatening look.

21:47SPEAKERIt took San Francisco to mellow me out a little bit.

21:50SPEAKER- Yeah, like it would be 85 degrees outside.

21:52SPEAKERYou'd be sitting outside with a cup of coffee

21:54SPEAKERand your leather jacket on and I was like, man,

21:56SPEAKERhe just does, he's so cool, like literally cool.

22:00SPEAKER(both laughing)

22:02SPEAKER- I put my hand out and a yellow cab would just fly by.

22:04SPEAKERIt's just like, wow, that's New York happening right there.

22:06SPEAKER- Yeah, I just expect-

22:08SPEAKER- That first, I'm sorry, that first couple of years

22:10SPEAKERis when you taught me to drink coffee.

22:11SPEAKERI don't know that I would be a coffee drinker

22:12SPEAKERif it weren't for us taking that-

22:14SPEAKER- Oh, weird.

22:15SPEAKER- Taking that early commuter bus over the Golden Gate Bridge.

22:18SPEAKERRemember that? - Wow.

22:20SPEAKER- Remember that crunchy granola market

22:21SPEAKERright around the corner from the office?

22:23SPEAKERThe soy milk, put soy milk in your coffee and like, yeah,

22:27SPEAKERwe went, you know, I was not a coffee drinker

22:29SPEAKERuntil we were coming in early every day

22:30SPEAKERand it was like, what am I,

22:31SPEAKERwhat else am I gonna do at nine o'clock here in the office?

22:34SPEAKERWe're the only ones here except go get coffee with Vinny.

22:36SPEAKER- Oh, right, 'cause the commuter bus didn't run

22:38SPEAKERafter like 8.30 or something, right?

22:40SPEAKERYou had to be there. - That was the last bus.

22:41SPEAKERLike it was like 8.45, I think,

22:42SPEAKERwas the last bus over the bridge.

22:43SPEAKERSo yeah, that was the latest we could get into the office.

22:46SPEAKERIt was like 9.10.

22:47SPEAKER- And then going home, I think that thing stopped

22:49SPEAKERat like eight something, so like that's me sleeping

22:51SPEAKERat the office. - I think it was 6.50,

22:54SPEAKERseven o'clock, something like that.

22:54SPEAKER- Something where it's just like, I'm stuck here.

22:57SPEAKER- That's it, I remember giving you both rides multiple times.

23:00SPEAKER- Yeah, yes, like we live two blocks away from each other

23:03SPEAKERright on that bus route and if you got that last

23:05SPEAKERlike 6.50 PM bus, it was a 20 minute commute.

23:09SPEAKERIf you missed that bus, it became a 90 minute commute.

23:12SPEAKER- Yeah, I ride my bike.

23:13SPEAKER- Do you remember that time we missed the bus

23:15SPEAKERand we had to take like the long one?

23:18SPEAKERAnd we got on, should I,

23:20SPEAKERI don't know if I should mention this, we got on there.

23:23SPEAKERIt was like release day at San Fran.

23:26SPEAKER- Yeah, somebody borrowed my phone.

23:27SPEAKER- It was a lot of, it was a bus full

23:29SPEAKERof just released prison inmates and us.

23:32SPEAKER- Well look, they're on their best behavior.

23:34SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, so they were in their sweatpants,

23:36SPEAKERthey were all in like gray sweatpants

23:37SPEAKERand somebody used my phone, I was like, of course,

23:40SPEAKERlike use it, but like, you know, 'cause they're calling

23:43SPEAKERto be like, hey, I need a pick up, right?

23:45SPEAKER- Right, yeah, it was definitely, it was like, oh wow,

23:47SPEAKERwe caught the after hours bus this time.

23:49SPEAKER- The pelican flies tonight.

23:51SPEAKER- I was like, I'm gonna keep this number on here,

23:53SPEAKERmake sure they call me back, thank you, yeah.

23:56SPEAKER- Now you're implicated.

23:58SPEAKER- I'll say the thing that's, it's kind of a segue

24:01SPEAKERfrom what we were just talking about into the whiskey day,

24:03SPEAKERearly whiskey days is video game capture and streaming,

24:07SPEAKERI feel like has led, has been kind of,

24:10SPEAKERthis is gonna sound self-aggrandizing,

24:11SPEAKERbut it has been like tip of the spear on a lot of this stuff

24:14SPEAKERbecause nobody else in their right mind was trying to do

24:17SPEAKERlike 60 frames a second on anything or low latency anything,

24:22SPEAKERor why do you need to stream live with low latency?

24:25SPEAKERLike nobody else is doing this.

24:27SPEAKERSo you got to really buy gear that was like,

24:31SPEAKERand at the time nobody was making video game streaming gear.

24:34SPEAKERYou're like, hey, what do we need to do this stuff?

24:37SPEAKERThere was, you know, El Gato was,

24:39SPEAKERI don't even think it was around.

24:41SPEAKERYeah, and you know, that stuff was, we wound up,

24:47SPEAKERwhen I came in, somebody had purchased some gear already

24:52SPEAKERfor the studio, a green screen, this Aja Ayo capture box

24:57SPEAKERfor capturing games.

24:59SPEAKERIt was none of this gear had been in GameSpot before.

25:02SPEAKER- I think the Mac Pro was there already.

25:04SPEAKER- I think the Mac Pro, one of those silver, you know,

25:07SPEAKERtower Mac cheese grater. - The cheese grater, yeah.

25:10SPEAKER- And I think a Panasonic HVX camera,

25:14SPEAKERwhich used the P2 cards, which were incredibly expensive.

25:18SPEAKER- Right, I forgot about those cards.

25:20SPEAKER- Hundreds of dollars for like a gig.

25:22SPEAKERI forget what it was, but it was just like.

25:23SPEAKER- It was like 18 minutes we could pack on one of those

25:26SPEAKERor something ridiculous.

25:27SPEAKER- Yeah, it was something ridiculous.

25:28SPEAKER- They were crazy high resolution too, 720P.

25:32SPEAKER- I always thought it was kind of hilarious

25:34SPEAKERand like maybe a little reckless is maybe mean,

25:38SPEAKERbut like, I thought it was funny that they went out

25:40SPEAKERand bought all the gear before they had a video producer

25:42SPEAKERto actually like dictate what the gear should be.

25:46SPEAKER- Well, they knew what they wanted to do.

25:47SPEAKERThey wanted to shoot stuff on a green screen.

25:48SPEAKERThey wanted to capture video games.

25:50SPEAKERAnd then, you know, we did,

25:54SPEAKERI think they had a lavalier or two as well.

25:56SPEAKERAnd it was a startup company.

25:58SPEAKERSo it was just like, hey, we have some money,

26:00SPEAKERlet's go buy this stuff.

26:02SPEAKERAnd you know, what do we need?

26:04SPEAKERAnd so I think it was like the person,

26:06SPEAKERthe business person at the time going into a Mac store

26:07SPEAKERand being like, what do I need to capture?

26:09SPEAKERYou know, like, okay, you definitely need this.

26:11SPEAKERYou just for sure need this.

26:13SPEAKERAnd so coming in there, it was great.

26:15SPEAKERYou know, that stuff was great to use,

26:17SPEAKERbut you know, the technology at the time was,

26:22SPEAKERwhat was that, Brad?

26:23SPEAKERLike PS3 to PS4 era at that time?

26:26SPEAKER- So the PS3 was like only a year and a half old

26:29SPEAKERat that time.

26:30SPEAKERLike that's pretty early in that generation,

26:32SPEAKERlike pretty early on HDMI even.

26:33SPEAKER'Cause remember they had the first model,

26:34SPEAKERthe Xbox 360 did not even have HDMI out.

26:36SPEAKERIt was component was the best you could get for HD.

26:39SPEAKERSo like we were early days on even like realizing

26:42SPEAKERthe horror of HDCP and stuff.

26:45SPEAKER- HDMI was new when you guys started,

26:47SPEAKERlike technologically new and probably like,

26:51SPEAKERI didn't have an HDMI TV until like 2012 probably or 2011.

26:55SPEAKERLike it wasn't long.

26:56SPEAKER- Did I get the timing wrong, 2000?

26:58SPEAKERYes, that's right.

26:59SPEAKERYeah, it was about two and a half years from the 360,

27:02SPEAKERI think, year and a half from the PS3.

27:03SPEAKER- We were there what, in like 2008?

27:05SPEAKER- Yeah, June 2008 is when we started.

27:08SPEAKER- So component, so I'm gonna, you know,

27:11SPEAKERI'm gonna kind of show my butt here a little bit.

27:14SPEAKERI am not an alleged, I am not a video engineer.

27:17SPEAKERI work in the trenches, I plugged this stuff in,

27:20SPEAKERbut I am fascinated by that stuff.

27:21SPEAKERSo I have a very layman's understanding.

27:24SPEAKERJan, not Jan Ochoa, another Jan we worked with

27:28SPEAKERat GameSpot was a genius when he came to that stuff.

27:32SPEAKERAnd I think he, I was maybe one of,

27:37SPEAKERI got this look from him as like, what are you doing?

27:39SPEAKERI think it was one of the first people to,

27:42SPEAKERwhen he would talk about that stuff, say, okay, what else?

27:44SPEAKERYou know, like just, I loved listening to him

27:47SPEAKERexplain what color spaces were

27:49SPEAKERand like why this works this way, so.

27:51SPEAKER- He understood that stuff on like an electrical level,

27:53SPEAKERright? - Yes.

27:54SPEAKER- Like he knew exactly what signals

27:56SPEAKERwere flowing through those cables

27:57SPEAKERand how they broke down and what they did.

27:59SPEAKER- Well, like how color spaces work, right?

28:01SPEAKERSo like, you know, when you have a cable,

28:03SPEAKERwhen you see those numbers, like four colon four colon four,

28:07SPEAKERthat's a four, four, four ratio.

28:10SPEAKERI'm sorry, I'm gonna try and get a little nerdy here,

28:12SPEAKERbut like, please know that I'm faking it.

28:15SPEAKERSo you have, there's a, and this is where my understanding

28:19SPEAKERis very layman, there's, to the point there's a difference

28:23SPEAKERwhen I say luma and luminance,

28:24SPEAKERthose are two different things.

28:27SPEAKERI think one is actual brightness,

28:29SPEAKERone is how humans perceive,

28:31SPEAKERit's like, it's graded to perceive it.

28:33SPEAKERSo the first number is your luma, right?

28:35SPEAKEROr luminance, I'm just gonna use them interchangeably,

28:37SPEAKERsomebody else can correct me.

28:38SPEAKERAnd then the next ratio is your colors,

28:41SPEAKERyour, the color space.

28:42SPEAKERSo humans can see the difference, the way we're evolved,

28:49SPEAKERcan see the difference in brightness very noticeably.

28:52SPEAKERThe perception and brightness,

28:54SPEAKERwe can see a dimming light very noticeably,

28:56SPEAKERmuch more than we can tell color saturation

28:58SPEAKERand the difference in color.

29:00SPEAKERSo that's why the first number's always four.

29:02SPEAKERIt never, you never compromise that brightness.

29:05SPEAKERAnd everything else is in ratio to that compressed to that.

29:09SPEAKERSo those things get compressed in ways that are,

29:12SPEAKERand alpha channels do this too,

29:14SPEAKERsometimes you have a fourth number at the end.

29:15SPEAKER- Hold on, so what are the,

29:16SPEAKERexplain the three numbers again,

29:17SPEAKERwhat are the three numbers?

29:18SPEAKER- Yeah, so the first one's your luminance value, right?

29:21SPEAKER- Okay.

29:22SPEAKER- And that's always like the four, right?

29:24SPEAKERAnd then you'll have like four, four, four means you have,

29:26SPEAKERand again, as far as I understand it,

29:28SPEAKERa perfect full ratio, nothing is compressed down,

29:31SPEAKERnothing is in, nothing is halved.

29:33SPEAKERAnd this is like usually on like a horizontal and wide plane.

29:36SPEAKERSo imagine the way it was explained to me,

29:39SPEAKERand I don't know if this is true or not,

29:40SPEAKERimagine you have a Photoshop, a raster image, right?

29:43SPEAKERAnd it is, and you start with,

29:45SPEAKERit's a hundred pixels by a hundred pixels.

29:47SPEAKERNow you make it, you squish it down vertically

29:51SPEAKERso that it's a hundred pixels by 50 pixels tall

29:53SPEAKERand you render it again.

29:55SPEAKERNow on the other side, you pull it back up again.

29:58SPEAKERAnd now you've then stretched these pixels back out

30:01SPEAKERin a way that are like, oh.

30:03SPEAKER- Kind of lost information and then interpolated it back.

30:05SPEAKER- Yeah, so you've kind of, you've rendered it down

30:07SPEAKERand now you've pulled it back up.

30:09SPEAKERAnd that's why like DV, DV is something like four, one, one.

30:15SPEAKERSo like DV, remember those little DV tapes?

30:17SPEAKER- Yeah.

30:18SPEAKER- And it was why chroma keying DV was a nightmare

30:22SPEAKERbecause when you got on the other end,

30:24SPEAKERyou had all these artifacts

30:25SPEAKERthat would be around the edges of people,

30:27SPEAKERall of this compression artifact,

30:29SPEAKERbecause the information, as far as I understand,

30:31SPEAKERthe information was done kind of just not as clear.

30:35SPEAKER- So each individual number is basically a range

30:37SPEAKERof gradation for that category, for that bucket, right?

30:40SPEAKERSo like the form, that's kind of,

30:42SPEAKERthat's the space you have to move the slider up and down in.

30:46SPEAKER- It's a subsampling, it's a ratio

30:48SPEAKERand I forget exactly how it works.

30:50SPEAKERLike, you know, why there are two numbers

30:54SPEAKERfor the chroma space and why there's one for the luma space.

30:57SPEAKERBut I mean, the thing about a composite video,

31:02SPEAKERwhen you talk about a composite cable,

31:04SPEAKERthe reason it's called a composite cable

31:06SPEAKERis because it's sending the luma and chroma information

31:09SPEAKERin one signal.

31:10SPEAKERThat composite cable has basically two pin outs.

31:14SPEAKERIt's got the lead and the ground on the shield around it.

31:18SPEAKERSo it's got the pin and the ground.

31:20SPEAKERAn S-video cable is basically

31:22SPEAKERjust two composite cables together.

31:24SPEAKEROne is Y, the chroma.

31:26SPEAKERAnd if you look at a pin out for a DIN on an S-video,

31:29SPEAKERit's ground luma, ground chroma.

31:32SPEAKERSo it's Y and C, right?

31:34SPEAKERSo it's Y ground, C ground.

31:36SPEAKERSo it's basically, they said, okay, let's split this up.

31:39SPEAKERSo the way, sorry, this is like a really loose understanding.

31:43SPEAKER- Just so people know, the composite

31:44SPEAKERis the old yellow RCA cable with the one plug.

31:47SPEAKERAnd the S-video is the one with all the like six pins.

31:49SPEAKERThere's a five pins inside it.

31:51SPEAKER- I think it's six.

31:52SPEAKER- There's a couple of different DINs.

31:53SPEAKERIt's like a four, it's four pins in it.

31:55SPEAKERAnd then if you look it up,

31:56SPEAKERI think they probably show like,

31:57SPEAKERhey, then they added these

31:58SPEAKER'cause there's just different stuff

32:00SPEAKERthat they started sending.

32:00SPEAKERLike sometimes coming out of your computer

32:02SPEAKERon old cards used to have this S-video cable

32:04SPEAKERthat had like nine pins or something on it.

32:06SPEAKERBut it's basically why it's chroma and luma on them.

32:10SPEAKERAnd you know, the way this is, again,

32:14SPEAKERhow I learned it years and years ago.

32:16SPEAKERSo it's very loose, like on a composite cable,

32:20SPEAKERall that stuff's mushed together,

32:20SPEAKERbut it's like, it starts separate

32:24SPEAKERin your original thing.

32:26SPEAKERThen it all gets mushed, poured into the same glass,

32:29SPEAKERbasically all these different things.

32:32SPEAKERAnd then it has to get teased back out on the other end.

32:35SPEAKERAnd they're all at different frequencies, right?

32:37SPEAKERSo you're kind of filtering out these things

32:39SPEAKERback on the other end.

32:40SPEAKERAnd it looks like crap on a composite cable.

32:42SPEAKERSo what if we can separate the luma and the chroma?

32:45SPEAKEROh, we did it.

32:46SPEAKERNow we don't have to tease them back out again

32:48SPEAKERon the other side.

32:49SPEAKERSo then you get to component and it's literally what it says.

32:52SPEAKEROh, what if we broke out each component on a cable?

32:54SPEAKERSo on a component cable, that's the three,

32:57SPEAKERthat's the green, blue, and red, right?

32:59SPEAKERAnd that's usually on the back of something

33:01SPEAKERyou might see Y, PB, and PR, right?

33:04SPEAKERI don't know if you guys have seen that

33:05SPEAKERon the back of things.

33:07SPEAKERSo Y is luma, and that's a black and white luma signal.

33:11SPEAKERPB is the blue, I think it's blue minus chroma,

33:15SPEAKERand PR is blue minus, blue minus,

33:19SPEAKERI'm sorry, red minus chroma.

33:21SPEAKERSo PB is blue minus chroma, PR is red.

33:22SPEAKERAnd then the green, this is why they're geniuses.

33:25SPEAKERThis is why-

33:26SPEAKER- It's the other way around.

33:27SPEAKERIt's red minus luma, red and blue minus luma, I think.

33:29SPEAKER- Okay, all right, yeah, sorry, yeah.

33:30SPEAKERSo it'll be red minus luma, blue minus luma, PB, PR, and Y.

33:35SPEAKERAnd then they basically get the green

33:37SPEAKER'cause they have all the other numbers.

33:39SPEAKERYou can extrapolate what the green is-

33:43SPEAKER- Oh, it's just what's left.

33:44SPEAKER- It's what's left, right?

33:45SPEAKERYeah, so you don't need another cable.

33:47SPEAKER- Incred, like that is, (mimics explosion)

33:51SPEAKER- Yeah, they're super smart.

33:53SPEAKERYeah, they're like, oh, this is the other thing.

33:56SPEAKERSo that green cable is actually the luma channel.

34:01SPEAKERYeah, that is, and then there are RGB cables

34:04SPEAKERand it's a little different, but that's component, right?

34:08SPEAKERSo it's composite, everything is composited.

34:10SPEAKERComponent, everything is a component.

34:12SPEAKER- So you can probably experiment with this.

34:14SPEAKERIf you have a component TV still,

34:16SPEAKERyou can experiment with this

34:16SPEAKERby plugging them into the wrong ones.

34:19SPEAKERAnd you'll get weird color shifts because, yeah.

34:25SPEAKER- If you plug the green one in,

34:27SPEAKERyou'll get a black and white picture only,

34:29SPEAKERbut you'll get the full picture.

34:31SPEAKERAnd some TVs also will say Y slash composite

34:36SPEAKERbecause sometimes it doubles as a composite channel as well

34:38SPEAKERif your TV can switch back, or at least they used to.

34:41SPEAKERI don't know if they do it anymore.

34:41SPEAKERSo that's the life of analog stuff and that was great.

34:45SPEAKERI mean, there were problems, you have analog degradation

34:47SPEAKERover runs, it's analog and that's where you get

34:50SPEAKERthat monster cable coming out and be like,

34:52SPEAKERwe're gold-plated and you'll get better connectivity.

34:54SPEAKER'Cause analog has a curve, right?

34:57SPEAKERYou have like, oh, you're gonna get better signal

35:00SPEAKERbased on the electronics in there versus digital

35:03SPEAKERwhere you kind of have a cliff.

35:04SPEAKERIt either is going or it's not going, right?

35:06SPEAKERBut analog, you'll get snow, you'll get kind of artifacts.

35:10SPEAKERIt's like the cable's no good.

35:11SPEAKER- Those little lines that move up and down the screen

35:13SPEAKERsometimes if you move that magnet near the cable.

35:16SPEAKER- So I should say that the, and again,

35:18SPEAKERthe people who are listening to this podcast

35:19SPEAKERare much smarter than I am on this,

35:21SPEAKERbut there is also sync information being sent,

35:24SPEAKERusually I think on that Luma channel as well.

35:25SPEAKERSo like you need timing information,

35:27SPEAKERhorizontal and vertical timing information.

35:30SPEAKERSo, and that's like sometimes a little bead at the bottom.

35:33SPEAKERAnyway, and so then you have interlaced and progressive

35:37SPEAKERand all that stuff.

35:38SPEAKERBut the thing in production that's fun with that

35:41SPEAKERis when you're doing production with those things

35:43SPEAKERin an analog way, your cameras are refreshing at rates,

35:48SPEAKERright, they're refreshing every time.

35:51SPEAKERAnd when you switch multiple cameras or feeds,

35:54SPEAKERthey have to be refreshing at the same time.

35:56SPEAKERSo you have to use a sync generator

35:58SPEAKERthat plugs into every camera.

36:00SPEAKERIt's a black burst for composite tri sync,

36:02SPEAKERI think for a component to make sure that everything

36:05SPEAKERinstead of being like, you know, AB, AB, AB,

36:08SPEAKERit's all A, A, A, A, A, A. So when you switch between shots,

36:11SPEAKERyou're not caught mid frame on something.

36:13SPEAKER- So AB, AB, you're talking about like an interlaced signal,

36:16SPEAKERyou're sending one half of the vertical lines,

36:18SPEAKERwell, horizontal lines one time, one frame

36:21SPEAKERand the other half, the other frame.

36:23SPEAKERAnd you do that so you end up without weird interleaving

36:25SPEAKERand like those, like, it looks like, I don't know,

36:27SPEAKERit looks like cross, like the lines don't line up

36:30SPEAKERwhen you cut between frames, right?

36:31SPEAKER- Yeah, so you can get caught with a frame half drawn

36:35SPEAKERor something like on screen.

36:36SPEAKERAnd you see this in video games because they used to use

36:39SPEAKERthis to good effect in those games of like, you know,

36:41SPEAKERif something's gonna be semi-transparent,

36:43SPEAKERthey would sometimes just draw half of it on the screen

36:46SPEAKERand like, it'd just be like, and now you see it now

36:47SPEAKERwith digital stuff and progressive, it's like,

36:49SPEAKERthis is not rendering correctly.

36:51SPEAKERLike this thing that was supposed to be semi-transparent

36:54SPEAKERis just missing half of it or it's a block

36:56SPEAKERor something like that, so.

36:57SPEAKER- We talked about this with Mic Micah last year,

36:59SPEAKER'cause like sometimes it's really weird,

37:01SPEAKERlike some of the old arcade console games, especially like,

37:05SPEAKERlike they expected phosphor glow to last between frames.

37:10SPEAKERSo like, I think he said the waterfalls in Sonic

37:12SPEAKERare the classic example of like the water is moving

37:16SPEAKERand the transparency of that is entirely a process

37:19SPEAKERthat happens on the front of the CRT.

37:21SPEAKER- Oh, that's great.

37:22SPEAKER- So like they hit it with a really high luma signal

37:26SPEAKERon the waterfall, knowing that the fade would go,

37:29SPEAKERlast until the next frame.

37:31SPEAKER- Oh my gosh, so you got like mechanical transparency.

37:33SPEAKER- And there's all this work on like the Mr. Project

37:36SPEAKERand emulation scene now to replicate that artificially,

37:39SPEAKERyou know, because they can't rely on the physics

37:41SPEAKERof the screen to do it for them anymore.

37:43SPEAKERSo they have to like code or kind of reverse engineer

37:46SPEAKERlike a solution that makes it work in the way

37:48SPEAKERthat it was supposed to on the screen, it's amazing.

37:51SPEAKERThere is a fantastic Twitter account

37:55SPEAKERcalled CRT pixels, @CRTpixels.

37:57SPEAKERThat is just nothing but exactly what you're talking about.

38:00SPEAKERIt's side-by-sides of like, here is the raw pixel output

38:03SPEAKERof these old games.

38:04SPEAKERHere's a photo of it on a TV, on a CRT right next to it.

38:08SPEAKERSo you can see exactly how they were using

38:09SPEAKERlike the phosphor glow and stuff like that

38:11SPEAKERto get like nice shading on stuff where the raw output

38:14SPEAKERis just this kind of real ugly, like hard contrast.

38:16SPEAKERLike that's a great side-by-side tool for that stuff.

38:19SPEAKER- So I'm sorry if I got a lot of that wrong,

38:22SPEAKERbut it is amazing to dive into.

38:25SPEAKERLike the thing I always used to tell,

38:28SPEAKERlike when I would sit down and sit with like Joey and Drew

38:33SPEAKERand we'd go over stuff, I'd be like,

38:35SPEAKERremember the cable is just a conduit.

38:38SPEAKERIt is just copper in a thing.

38:39SPEAKERIt's a passive cable.

38:41SPEAKERIt is not doing anything magical.

38:43SPEAKERIt is just, you are plugging it into a port

38:45SPEAKERthat is sending something along pins.

38:48SPEAKERAnd on the other end, a device is interpreting that.

38:50SPEAKERAs long as the pins line up, it is not an HDMI cable,

38:54SPEAKERa DVI cable, all of this stuff is not doing anything

38:58SPEAKERexcept transporting the information along the proper lanes.

39:01SPEAKERAnd, you know, because it can seem like,

39:04SPEAKERoh, you know, there's something magic is happening in there.

39:06SPEAKERSo like, you know, you go from composite

39:08SPEAKERto S-video to component,

39:11SPEAKERand there is something easy to understand about like,

39:14SPEAKERoh, you're just doubling the bandwidth

39:16SPEAKERby putting two cables.

39:17SPEAKERNow you're just, this is how we got to 720,

39:19SPEAKER1280 by 720 from 480, you just added cables.

39:23SPEAKERLike you just put more cables in there.

39:26SPEAKERAnd then when you get to VGA,

39:29SPEAKERwhich is another analog format, you know,

39:32SPEAKERthat stuff starts getting a little more complicated

39:34SPEAKERbecause they start doing weird device control stuff

39:36SPEAKERon some of the pins.

39:37SPEAKERThen you start getting into weird things.

39:39SPEAKER- It's two way, it's sometimes,

39:40SPEAKERand VGA and stuff like that, right?

39:41SPEAKER- So like, if you look at pin outs on VGA, you know,

39:45SPEAKERit looks like, you know, VGA is a D-sub,

39:48SPEAKERis that the connector?

39:50SPEAKERYou know, it's a little smaller,

39:51SPEAKERbut there's a lot of pins in there.

39:53SPEAKERBut a lot of those are ground, you know,

39:54SPEAKERdon't forget you have a ground in there and, you know,

39:57SPEAKERbut you're still dealing with RGB

39:58SPEAKERand you're still just dealing with sending color

40:00SPEAKERand sync information.

40:01SPEAKERI forgot what the pin out on the D-sub is,

40:03SPEAKERbut it's like-

40:04SPEAKER- It's 15 pins, I think.

40:05SPEAKERI can't remember. - Is it that many?

40:07SPEAKER- Yeah. - There are all of them used?

40:08SPEAKER- A lot of them are grounds.

40:10SPEAKER- So yeah, and you'll have like horizontal plus and minus

40:13SPEAKERand stuff like that.

40:14SPEAKERAnd then you get to SCART

40:17SPEAKERand that's like a black box for me.

40:19SPEAKERLike SCART to me, if you look at a pin out

40:22SPEAKERof a SCART cable, we didn't have it.

40:24SPEAKERI was not-

40:26SPEAKER- We should explain what SCART is before we dive.

40:28SPEAKER- Like SCART was a European standard

40:30SPEAKERthat was made by some French, hold on.

40:35SPEAKERIt's made by- - Are you gonna try it?

40:36SPEAKERAre you gonna try it?

40:37SPEAKER- Yeah, do it.

40:38SPEAKER- The syndicate (speaking in foreign language)

40:45SPEAKERSo it's all the French-ified anglophile words,

40:49SPEAKERbut it's the, I apologize.

40:51SPEAKERI'm so sorry also to any Francophiles

40:54SPEAKERor even people in Quebec who speak French.

40:57SPEAKERI know there's a difference there,

40:58SPEAKERbut I don't understand it.

41:00SPEAKERRadio and Television Receiver Manufacturers Association

41:02SPEAKERis the English translation.

41:04SPEAKERAnd it was developed in the mid '70s.

41:06SPEAKERSo it's analog, but it's terrifying looking from where I sit

41:09SPEAKERand it actually kind of looks like the back,

41:11SPEAKERlike the port that was on the back of like,

41:13SPEAKERwhat the SNES and the N64.

41:17SPEAKERLike it's a wide weird thing

41:18SPEAKERwith a bunch of vertical pins in it.

41:20SPEAKER- Yes, and yeah, it's got a bunch of pins,

41:22SPEAKERlike 20 or 21, I'm looking at, yeah.

41:26SPEAKER- To me, it looks like technology from the movie "Alien."

41:29SPEAKERLike it looks like the thing they should have been plugging

41:30SPEAKERin their computers on the Nostromo.

41:32SPEAKERIt's like terrifyingly rugged and industrial looking.

41:35SPEAKER- And I never understood why we didn't get it here.

41:39SPEAKERLike it must have been money, I assume,

41:41SPEAKERor it must've been some kind of like,

41:42SPEAKERhey, we're not gonna license this out.

41:44SPEAKERBut like, it's kind of amazing.

41:46SPEAKERLike if you look at the pin outs on that thing,

41:50SPEAKERI'm not familiar with SCART much at all

41:51SPEAKER'cause I never had to use it,

41:53SPEAKERbut it carries audio for the first thing.

41:55SPEAKER- I should say all of these other things

41:57SPEAKERwe've talked about do not carry audio.

41:58SPEAKERSo like, if you remember, you had the yellow,

42:01SPEAKERthe white and the red, right?

42:02SPEAKERAnd that was your composite set.

42:03SPEAKERAnd then you had your component set,

42:05SPEAKERwhich was also, you had your three red,

42:07SPEAKERgreen and blue cables.

42:08SPEAKERAnd then you had your white and red stereo,

42:10SPEAKERunless you were some weirdo in the nineties

42:13SPEAKERwho was using optical back then.

42:15SPEAKERYou were using, you know, white and red.

42:17SPEAKER- Your TOSLINK, which is, I'm actually sorry.

42:21SPEAKERIt's the SPIDIF, SPIDIF was just the connector, my bad.

42:25SPEAKERWhich was super cool if you could do it.

42:27SPEAKERI always thought that was for like,

42:28SPEAKERman, that's for the rich people.

42:29SPEAKERThey got their weird fiber optic cables.

42:31SPEAKER- They were so expensive.

42:33SPEAKER- Yeah.

42:33SPEAKER- The fiber optic cables were so expensive.

42:35SPEAKER- Yeah, I think they were, this I don't know at all,

42:38SPEAKERbut like, 'cause I only looked into fiber stuff

42:40SPEAKERa couple of years ago again,

42:41SPEAKERremembering that it's like, A, it's super expensive

42:44SPEAKERand B, it is incredibly fragile.

42:46SPEAKERAnd I remember talking to somebody about,

42:47SPEAKERno, man, it's just like an extruded plastic now.

42:49SPEAKERIt's not like glass in there anymore.

42:51SPEAKER- Like don't kink it and you're fine.

42:52SPEAKER- Yeah, don't do a 90 degree turn.

42:54SPEAKERYou should be fine.

42:55SPEAKERThey actually give you, they give you basically the angle,

42:57SPEAKERlike the max sort of bend angle,

42:59SPEAKER'cause I've been looking at a lot of fiber

43:00SPEAKERfor networking recently.

43:01SPEAKERAnd when you go buy the fiber, it's like,

43:03SPEAKERhere's how much you can bend this and no further.

43:06SPEAKER- I did fiber for my audio stuff in the 90s

43:09SPEAKERand like the cables were really expensive,

43:13SPEAKERbut it was really nice 'cause like you just plugged it in,

43:15SPEAKERlike you didn't have to worry about whether it ran over

43:17SPEAKERthe power cords or anything like that

43:18SPEAKERand whether it was gonna pick up noise.

43:19SPEAKER- Slight pulses, man, just light pulses.

43:21SPEAKER- Yeah, no hum, no ground loops.

43:23SPEAKER- So SCART has audio in it.

43:25SPEAKERSCART has, from what I can tell from looking at pin outs,

43:28SPEAKERit can do RGB, it can do S-video, it can do component.

43:31SPEAKERIt's like all this stuff built

43:32SPEAKERinto this Frankenstein connector.

43:35SPEAKERAnd I only really started learning about SCART

43:39SPEAKERafter being at GameSpot and Giant Bomb

43:42SPEAKERwhere people were like,

43:43SPEAKERand it was mostly like the Peter Browns and Jeffs

43:45SPEAKERof the world being like, no, man, SCART,

43:49SPEAKERyou gotta get, you want to clear this picture,

43:51SPEAKERnot as video, SCART.

43:53SPEAKER- Like that was the thing, hanging out on like IRC

43:55SPEAKERin the mid, in the late 90s with people who really,

43:57SPEAKERreally fucking cared about the quality of their video games.

43:59SPEAKERLike they were like modding TVs to their American TVs

44:02SPEAKERto use SCART, you know, like modding SCART

44:04SPEAKERinto American game consoles.

44:06SPEAKERLike it's kind of, it's always,

44:07SPEAKERit always seemed like the sort of last video cable

44:10SPEAKERyou needed until everything went digital, right?

44:12SPEAKERIt was kind of the ultimate goal.

44:13SPEAKER- It seemed like, like, I don't know,

44:15SPEAKERlike I never really used it.

44:19SPEAKER- It had, it had a pin that denoted what the aspect ratio

44:23SPEAKERof the signal was so that you could say,

44:26SPEAKERlike remember the anamorphic squeeze

44:27SPEAKERwhen you had a four by three HDTV

44:30SPEAKERthat you could then send the entire pixel,

44:32SPEAKERthe entire signal down and just have the TV

44:35SPEAKERrender the black bars and have all of the video in that,

44:38SPEAKERin that, in those, all the 480ps were used for video,

44:42SPEAKERno black bars, SCART could do that

44:44SPEAKERwithout you having to do anything on the TV end.

44:46SPEAKERIt was nice.

44:47SPEAKER- So I don't know why we didn't get SCART.

44:49SPEAKERI assume again, some kind of licensing thing.

44:51SPEAKER- Probably cost 35 cents per TV to implement or something.

44:55SPEAKER- But like all of these things also we should,

44:57SPEAKERwe should say are like, hey, this is all like,

45:00SPEAKERyou guys talk about this on the air,

45:02SPEAKERlike your consortiums, right?

45:04SPEAKERLike your different, your different consortiums

45:06SPEAKERrunning the show.

45:07SPEAKERSo I should say in, in this kind of analog world,

45:11SPEAKERthis is all happening.

45:12SPEAKERAnd then also SDI is happening,

45:14SPEAKERwhich is serial digital interface.

45:15SPEAKERAnd that's, that's a digital cable

45:17SPEAKERthat was kind of used in the professional land.

45:19SPEAKERSDI is amazing.

45:23SPEAKERSDI, SDI, I, I believe, I believe SDI to be the best.

45:32SPEAKERNow, so all of these other things,

45:34SPEAKERso composite as video component,

45:37SPEAKERthose are the types of signals, the cable,

45:40SPEAKERit's not the type of cable necessary, or the,

45:44SPEAKERwhat do you call it?

45:45SPEAKERThe interlock, the adapter.

45:46SPEAKERIt's not the, it's not the end of the cable, right?

45:48SPEAKERSo like the terminal, it's not the terminal.

45:51SPEAKERSo that's, that's different.

45:52SPEAKERYou have like phono jacks,

45:53SPEAKERyou have whatever you want on there.

45:55SPEAKERBanana plug if you want, whatever you want on there.

45:57SPEAKERSo the BNC, which pick what you want it to stand for.

46:02SPEAKERI, I always went with a British naval connector

46:04SPEAKER'cause I thought that was fun,

46:05SPEAKERbut people I've heard all different things

46:07SPEAKERthroughout the years.

46:08SPEAKERI'm like, that's not true.

46:09SPEAKERIt's not really that.

46:12SPEAKERBNC is this bayonet style locking cam style thing.

46:16SPEAKERHave you ever put Ikea furniture together?

46:18SPEAKERIt's kind of like that cam they use in there

46:19SPEAKERwhere you turn the screwdriver and it locks on a peg.

46:21SPEAKER- I almost died because of a BNC connector one time.

46:25SPEAKER- Because it pulled a piece of gear off?

46:27SPEAKER- Because somebody had a ground loop

46:28SPEAKERfloating over a 10 base two network chain.

46:31SPEAKERAnd when I grabbed the BNC connector,

46:33SPEAKERit grounded me out and I couldn't let go of it.

46:35SPEAKERLike my hand clamped around it.

46:36SPEAKER- Oh, it was that time.

46:38SPEAKER- That time, I had to wrench my whole arm around

46:40SPEAKERto get the connector ripped off.

46:42SPEAKERIt was bad.

46:43SPEAKER- So that is one of the things you will see

46:45SPEAKERas a con of BNC, which I, which, you know,

46:49SPEAKERwhen you look up like, what's the pros and cons of HDMI?

46:53SPEAKERDepending on your environment,

46:54SPEAKERHDMI will get yanked out of the console or whatever.

46:58SPEAKERBNC will pull it down on you.

47:00SPEAKERIf you trip over that cable,

47:02SPEAKERthat gear is coming down off the shelf.

47:04SPEAKER- There's no X-Box style quick release on a BNC cable,

47:07SPEAKERit turns out.

47:08SPEAKERThe opposite.

47:09SPEAKER- You will, you will, you, that person will fall

47:11SPEAKERand you, that gear will come or that gear will come down.

47:14SPEAKERSomething will give and it's probably not the connector.

47:17SPEAKERThe, yeah, it slides in and locks in.

47:19SPEAKERSo those have been on S-video cables, not the,

47:22SPEAKERnot the DIN ones.

47:24SPEAKERThe, they have cables that are S-video

47:26SPEAKERthat will split into YNC and they have this bayonet style.

47:29SPEAKERThose have been on composite cables, I've seen them.

47:31SPEAKERI've seen them on component cables.

47:32SPEAKER- I have a set of component BNC cables in my garage

47:35SPEAKERfor an old monitor I used to have, yeah.

47:37SPEAKERActually, yeah.

47:38SPEAKER- So SDI is, is one solid core pin surrounded by a shield.

47:45SPEAKERSo it's got a ground and the pin

47:47SPEAKERand carries all that information on it.

47:49SPEAKERIt has a, you know, it has a bandwidth

47:51SPEAKERlike any other cable.

47:52SPEAKERNow there's HD-SDI up to, I want to say they're

47:56SPEAKERup to 12 gigabit at HD-SDI with something on the horizon.

48:01SPEAKERCarries like 16 channels of audio,

48:04SPEAKERa pretty full sub sample for a while, it was 422,

48:08SPEAKERbut I think they can cheat it into 444 now.

48:11SPEAKERBut I'm just gonna get into this now

48:14SPEAKER'cause I feel like this is the thing.

48:15SPEAKERIf you're in production and you're listening to this,

48:18SPEAKERit probably may be waiting for me to say,

48:22SPEAKERthe reason, the reason I believe you have HDMI

48:26SPEAKERand that, do you curse on this?

48:28SPEAKER- Please. - Fuck yeah.

48:29SPEAKER- That poo poo connector is because,

48:34SPEAKERcopy protection.

48:36SPEAKER- Yeah, of course.

48:37SPEAKER- Because consumers and SDI component, S video composite,

48:43SPEAKERthose analog ones and SDI, which is a digital one,

48:45SPEAKERdo not carry any kind of handshaking between devices.

48:48SPEAKERIt's one way, they do not transmit.

48:51SPEAKERThere's no EDID, there's no like, there's no HDCP.

48:57SPEAKERYou set what you want to send out of device A,

49:01SPEAKERit travels through the cable, passive cable

49:03SPEAKERand goes into device B.

49:05SPEAKERDevice B is not saying, what is device A?

49:07SPEAKERDevice B is saying, I'm looking for this signal.

49:10SPEAKERMake sure device A is saying it.

49:12SPEAKERHDMI says, plug me in, I'll figure it out.

49:16SPEAKER- Hey man, what you got?

49:17SPEAKER- Hey, what you got?

49:18SPEAKEROh, you're trying to play a wedding crashers, huh?

49:22SPEAKERWell, we're not, we're just not gonna do that.

49:24SPEAKER- Your monitor is not compatible with our thing.

49:27SPEAKERYou've got dirty keys.

49:28SPEAKERWe gotta get fresh keys if you wanna use your monitor here.

49:31SPEAKER- If you read Boing Boing in the early 2000s,

49:34SPEAKERCorey Doctorow had strong feelings about the value of HDCP.

49:38SPEAKERAnd he was correct because all like the sad thing

49:43SPEAKERabout the millions of dollars, presumably,

49:46SPEAKERwhatever the standards body that came up with HDMI

49:48SPEAKERand HDCP did.

49:50SPEAKERSo he spent all this butt loads of money

49:52SPEAKERand then like 15 minutes after HDMI TV started shipping,

49:56SPEAKERsome company in Taiwan was like, yo dog,

49:57SPEAKERwe got a splitter for this

49:58SPEAKERand it strips out all of the HDMI bullshit.

50:01SPEAKERIt's $8.

50:02SPEAKERSo the only people that HDCP inconveniences

50:05SPEAKERare the ones that like don't know to buy the $8 splitter.

50:09SPEAKER- So those are not, so I learned last year

50:11SPEAKERbecause we had a bunch of those.

50:13SPEAKERWe bought a bunch of those exact $8 boxes to strip HDCP.

50:16SPEAKERAnd I had one here that worked for years

50:17SPEAKERand then didn't as of last year.

50:20SPEAKERTwo months after work from home started, of course.

50:21SPEAKERSo I went out to buy a new splitter.

50:23SPEAKERYou can't get stripping splitters as easily as you used to.

50:27SPEAKERLike even the ones, even the literal ones we used to buy.

50:30SPEAKERYou know, 'cause they've got years old product pages

50:33SPEAKERon Amazon, right?

50:33SPEAKERSo they've got years of user reviews built up on there.

50:36SPEAKERAnd like, there's a certain point in those user reviews

50:38SPEAKERwhere they all flip and people are like,

50:40SPEAKERthese don't strip HDCP anymore.

50:42SPEAKERStop buying these.

50:43SPEAKERI don't know what happened, but they no longer do that.

50:45SPEAKERSomething changed on the backend.

50:46SPEAKERI don't know if it's like the consortiums

50:48SPEAKERand the corporations clamping down on that stuff

50:50SPEAKERor what's happening there.

50:52SPEAKER- The, so HDMI is, so I think SDI is put together

50:56SPEAKERby SMPTE in their specs.

50:57SPEAKERIt's a society for motion pictures

50:59SPEAKERand television engineers, right?

51:01SPEAKERHDMI, they don't, they do not fuck around.

51:04SPEAKERHave you ever seen the HDMI?

51:06SPEAKERI forget if it's a consortium,

51:07SPEAKERthey have a list of banned companies on their website

51:10SPEAKERthat is like, oh, they have, they have like a,

51:12SPEAKERyou go to their, you go to the site

51:14SPEAKERand it's like persona non grata.

51:16SPEAKERLike these companies can no longer license HDMI technology

51:19SPEAKER'cause they are, 'cause you are banned.

51:21SPEAKER- The HDMI licensing administrator incorporated

51:24SPEAKERwas what you're talking about, I believe.

51:26SPEAKER- Would it be the, would it be by any chance,

51:27SPEAKERthe list of terminated HDMI adopters?

51:29SPEAKER- Yes, that's it, yes, yes, dude.

51:32SPEAKER- I can tell you, I can tell you

51:33SPEAKERthat One Verge internet technology in Beijing

51:36SPEAKERwas terminated since November, 2017.

51:38SPEAKER- Yes, that list is like, it is so, it is a wall of shame.

51:42SPEAKERIt is the do not serve list for like,

51:44SPEAKERthey are serious about their stuff.

51:45SPEAKER- You're not kidding.

51:46SPEAKERThere are dozens of companies on this list.

51:49SPEAKER- It's like a bodega with like the bad check sign

51:52SPEAKERon the wall, man.

51:53SPEAKER- Sorry, sorry, Artec Incorporated, you're out.

51:56SPEAKER- Like, they made my splitter.

51:59SPEAKER- Dude, dude, holy shit, EVGA is on this list.

52:03SPEAKERYeah, you crossed the line, you are on the list.

52:07SPEAKER- I have a tech hole HDMI splitter right here,

52:11SPEAKERwhich is my favorite name for this.

52:12SPEAKER'Cause it's like, yeah, man, we got your,

52:14SPEAKERwe put your, we put your HP in a hole here, baby.

52:19SPEAKERYeah, that's funny.

52:20SPEAKERI didn't realize that they were going after it that hard,

52:21SPEAKERbut still, like that stuff's still pretty easy.

52:23SPEAKERFine, you can do it in software

52:24SPEAKERif you have the right stuff now too.

52:25SPEAKER- Oh, yeah, yeah, it's just, it's just like, they are,

52:30SPEAKERit's just funny that they publish a list

52:32SPEAKERof just basically, that's like-

52:33SPEAKER- It's like the wall of shame.

52:35SPEAKER- F me, F you, you're on the list.

52:36SPEAKERYou can't, no more HDMI for you.

52:40SPEAKERI should say HDMI in terms of video quality is very good.

52:45SPEAKERIt is, it has allowed for a lot of consumer electronics

52:49SPEAKERto push, you know, where we're going.

52:52SPEAKERI don't like the port, I don't like the connector.

52:55SPEAKERThey have made like, I think at least three

52:56SPEAKERor four different sizes of them.

52:59SPEAKERThose mini ones are-

53:00SPEAKER- Yeah, there's standard, there's mini, there's micro.

53:03SPEAKER- They're-

53:04SPEAKER- Like the problem with HDMI, one of the problems I have

53:06SPEAKERis that the physical connector is only designed

53:08SPEAKERfor like a hundred insertions and removals before it fails.

53:12SPEAKERSo if you're, like normal people, this isn't a problem,

53:15SPEAKERbut if you're streaming and you switch your PlayStation

53:18SPEAKERand your Xbox and your Switch,

53:20SPEAKERand you don't have some sort of,

53:22SPEAKERlike this is the argument for buying the physical switcher,

53:25SPEAKERis that if you're unplugging and replugging all that stuff

53:27SPEAKERall the time, those, like I blew out the connector

53:29SPEAKERon my PS4 Pro and like the solution was send it to Sony

53:33SPEAKERand pay them 200 bucks to fix it.

53:34SPEAKER- I didn't, I didn't know they were that fragile.

53:36SPEAKERI've been doing that a lot for capture.

53:39SPEAKER- So those ports are soldered in with all those pins, right?

53:42SPEAKERSo every pin that you're putting into the port

53:47SPEAKERneeds a solder point on a board, right?

53:49SPEAKERSo imagine now you have 21 pins soldered to a board

53:52SPEAKERand every time you stress that thing

53:54SPEAKERand you flex that port,

53:56SPEAKERit could lift or break a solder joint on that thing.

53:58SPEAKERSo yeah, they, you go in, you go out.

54:01SPEAKERIt's also the problem with if you wanna do runs of HDMI

54:05SPEAKERand HDMI does not run well over length,

54:07SPEAKERit is like, I wanna say it's like 100 feet or something.

54:09SPEAKERYou're at 100 feet, your cable's the size of your arm.

54:11SPEAKER- It's 10 meters, isn't it?

54:12SPEAKERNo, it's 10 meters, I think, short.

54:15SPEAKER- Yeah, it's short.

54:16SPEAKERSo SDI could run, I think like a thousand feet.

54:18SPEAKERI mean, you get, it depends what you're sending,

54:20SPEAKERbut like SDI is made for an industry to run long cables.

54:23SPEAKERAn HD SDI, but like, you know,

54:26SPEAKERyou guys have probably seen trying to get that long,

54:29SPEAKERyou know, gauge HDMI cable

54:31SPEAKERwhere the weight of that thing on a port.

54:34SPEAKER- Yeah, I had to buy a dongle that dangled down

54:37SPEAKERin the right angle and a swingy thing on it.

54:40SPEAKER- Endless dongles and adapters and short cables

54:43SPEAKERand like swivel mount little doohickeys,

54:46SPEAKERkind of female to female and stuff from Monoprice

54:49SPEAKERfor exactly that reason,

54:50SPEAKERbecause it's so easy to break that port with a heavy cable.

54:52SPEAKER- Yeah, so it stresses it and that's trouble.

54:56SPEAKERSo SDI, you know, I'm not just trying to blow SDI's,

55:00SPEAKERyou know, game up here, but like, you know,

55:03SPEAKERthey do a lot of the same stuff that HDMI does

55:11SPEAKERwithout all of the extra talking to all the,

55:14SPEAKERyou're not gonna raise the volume on your other device

55:16SPEAKERthrough an SDI cable, right?

55:17SPEAKERIt doesn't talk back to anything.

55:19SPEAKERIt doesn't have arc.

55:20SPEAKERIt doesn't do all this other weird stuff, you know,

55:23SPEAKERit sends the video, it sends the audio, it's digital,

55:26SPEAKERbut it's also, like I said, one solid core,

55:30SPEAKERI have made so many SDI cables because you can,

55:33SPEAKERyou just buy coax and you buy it, you make it.

55:37SPEAKER- We used to do it in the basement.

55:39SPEAKERWe would have a SDI cable making day.

55:42SPEAKERYou would be running 50 feet of cables

55:44SPEAKERdown the length of the basement and you'd like,

55:46SPEAKERI remember you taught Vinny and Drew and Joey

55:49SPEAKERand everybody down there how to do that one day.

55:51SPEAKERIt was fun.

55:52SPEAKER- Because it's just electricity, right?

55:53SPEAKERThere's no microcontroller or logic in there.

55:55SPEAKERIt's just sending a signal.

55:56SPEAKER- Well, there's no, I mean, there's no logic

55:58SPEAKERin an HDMI cable.

55:59SPEAKERIt's just 21 pins that have to be on tiny little copper wire

56:03SPEAKERthat all have to be shielded from each other that you,

56:05SPEAKERyou know, a robot can do, but you can't do, right?

56:07SPEAKERLike, you know, the coax cable you're doing with SDI,

56:12SPEAKERI mean, I guess you could do it, not solid core,

56:14SPEAKERbut it's a solid core piece of copper in there

56:16SPEAKERthat you're just, you put a little pin on,

56:18SPEAKERlike a little nipple on it, you put a bayonet connector

56:20SPEAKERon it and you crimp it and your cable's done.

56:23SPEAKERIt's like four pieces.

56:25SPEAKERIt is the solid core.

56:26SPEAKERThere is plastic shielding.

56:28SPEAKERThere is then tin foil for the ground and shielding,

56:32SPEAKERand then the black wrap that's around it, and that's it.

56:35SPEAKERLike if you, if I broke an HDMI cable.

56:37SPEAKER- Isn't there braided ground on SDI?

56:40SPEAKER- Yeah, it's like this foily shield stuff, shielding on it.

56:43SPEAKERYeah, it's like that tiny,

56:45SPEAKERthat tiny thin little stranded wire.

56:46SPEAKERAnd like that just needs to touch the coupler.

56:50SPEAKERAnd yeah, it's like a sleeve on it.

56:53SPEAKERSo like the, if you break an HDMI cable, throw it away.

56:56SPEAKERLike you, you break, an SDI cable just snip the end off

57:00SPEAKERand put a new terminal on the end.

57:01SPEAKERLike you can do it fairly easily.

57:03SPEAKERI don't know if you guys have ever broken headphone wire,

57:06SPEAKERbut like even opening up headphone wire

57:09SPEAKERwith that thin like angel hair copper that's in there,

57:14SPEAKERlike I've tried it a couple of,

57:15SPEAKERwe take the X-Acto knife and try and split the thing down.

57:17SPEAKERAnd it was like a piece of string in there.

57:19SPEAKERAnd then like, and you're like,

57:21SPEAKERI just got to throw this away.

57:23SPEAKERThere's just nothing I can do.

57:24SPEAKER- The hardest solder job,

57:25SPEAKERone of the hardest solder jobs I've ever done

57:27SPEAKERwas the headphones I'm wearing right now.

57:29SPEAKERI accidentally bought some that didn't have ends on them.

57:32SPEAKERLike I didn't have, it did like,

57:33SPEAKERyou can get it as like an XLR and a quarter inch

57:36SPEAKERor like a, you know, the four pole,

57:40SPEAKERlike modern headphone adapter, whichever one you want.

57:43SPEAKERBut I bought the naked one by accident

57:44SPEAKERthat just had wires and then had to buy the connectors.

57:46SPEAKERI was like, this is so like the headphone part of this

57:49SPEAKERis so delicate compared to anything

57:51SPEAKERI've ever soldered before.

57:52SPEAKERAnd it took like three or four tries to get it right.

57:54SPEAKERI ended up just buying the cables

57:57SPEAKERthat have the right ends on them.

57:59SPEAKERVinnie, SDI sounds really good.

58:00SPEAKERCan I just get this on TV soon?

58:01SPEAKERIs this like a thing I'm gonna be able to buy

58:02SPEAKERand put in my living room?

58:03SPEAKERI'm getting a TV. - No, look at TV.

58:04SPEAKER- Sweet summer child.

58:05SPEAKER- No, because what are you gonna plug into it?

58:07SPEAKERLike, you know, so you can buy,

58:09SPEAKERso this is where it is not passive.

58:10SPEAKERYou can buy HDMI to SDI converters.

58:13SPEAKERThey're not super duper expensive, you know,

58:14SPEAKERbut they're like 30 bucks or whatever.

58:16SPEAKER- I remember they were really reliable and convenient

58:18SPEAKERback in the day when we were in the basement at Whiskey.

58:20SPEAKER- So you gotta make sure that, you know,

58:22SPEAKERyou're not passing anything HDCP

58:24SPEAKER'cause if you don't wanna get on the bad boy list

58:26SPEAKERand strip that stuff out, you know,

58:28SPEAKERBlackmagic does not wanna be on the bad boy list.

58:30SPEAKERSo you cannot pass that stuff.

58:31SPEAKERYou have to figure out a way to get rid of it ahead of time.

58:34SPEAKERBut you can convert, those are digital signals.

58:36SPEAKERHDMI and DVI use the same protocol for sending their signal.

58:42SPEAKERThat's why you can have a passive HDMI to DVI adapter.

58:47SPEAKERIt's passive, it's just, they remap the pins.

58:50SPEAKERThey get rid of a lot of the stuff that's just like,

58:53SPEAKERwell, you're never gonna use this on your DVI device,

58:55SPEAKERbut they remap.

58:58SPEAKERYou guys, have you guys talked about the incredible world

59:00SPEAKERof DVI adapters here?

59:03SPEAKEROf DVI-I, DVI-A, DVI-D, dual link?

59:07SPEAKER- Not a ton.

59:08SPEAKERWe've touched on it and the overall fragility

59:11SPEAKERof the DVI interface, physical connector is one of my least,

59:16SPEAKERit is probably my least favorite plug of all time.

59:19SPEAKER- Will's not a fan.

59:19SPEAKERI have, the display port tops my list

59:22SPEAKERof shit connectors personally.

59:24SPEAKERBut I just found out recently that there are analog

59:26SPEAKERand digital versions of DVI, which blew my mind

59:28SPEAKERbecause I thought the D stood for digital.

59:29SPEAKER- It's the plus and the vertical tells you whether it's,

59:32SPEAKERlike, let me tell you, reviewing video cards

59:35SPEAKERin the time of DVI gave me a deep and abiding hatred

59:38SPEAKERfor DVI 'cause the cables are always too fat.

59:41SPEAKERAnd all it takes is one slight fuck up to bend the pins

59:45SPEAKERto the point that like, well, that cable's in the trash.

59:48SPEAKERLet me go get another one out of the bin.

59:49SPEAKERAnd yeah, anyway.

59:51SPEAKER- You're taking like a tiny little tweezer

59:55SPEAKERto bend that one pin back.

59:56SPEAKERSo the DVI analog, right, it has that cross, right?

1:00:00SPEAKERIt's got that sliver thing and there's four pins there

1:00:03SPEAKERand it's just an RGB and sync pin that allows it to go

1:00:07SPEAKERto trans, that's all the analog stuff on that side.

1:00:10SPEAKERAnd then have you ever seen the one

1:00:12SPEAKERthat looks like it has a gap tooth?

1:00:13SPEAKERIt's just like, you're missing something in the middle here.

1:00:16SPEAKERSo that's in the middle there is that,

1:00:18SPEAKERI think it's called a dual link.

1:00:19SPEAKERThey just basically need to send higher resolutions,

1:00:22SPEAKERdid it again, right?

1:00:23SPEAKEROh, here's some more.

1:00:25SPEAKERAnd that it's, if you ever look at like a DVI to VGA adapter,

1:00:30SPEAKERit looks like it's even missing more teeth.

1:00:32SPEAKERIt's just like, you know, it's anyway,

1:00:34SPEAKERthat's just DVI and HDMI.

1:00:38SPEAKERThey use, maybe protocol is not the right word.

1:00:42SPEAKERTMDS, I think it is.

1:00:43SPEAKERI looked it up before just to see what it is.

1:00:45SPEAKERSo like, you know, these are digital signals, right?

1:00:48SPEAKERSo XLR is using, oh, sorry, SDI is using something called,

1:00:51SPEAKERthis is for you guys to look into, this is not for me.

1:00:54SPEAKERNRZ, NRZI.

1:00:56SPEAKER- If you'd like to know more.

1:00:57SPEAKER- Yeah, which is like non redundant zero something

1:01:02SPEAKERlike to do its data and then HDMI and DVI

1:01:04SPEAKERdo a different thing and then DisplayPort,

1:01:07SPEAKERI don't even know, it's used as something else.

1:01:08SPEAKERI looked it up before the show just to see

1:01:10SPEAKERif it uses the same and it's like ML lane

1:01:12SPEAKERor something like that.

1:01:12SPEAKERWhen you look at the pinouts.

1:01:13SPEAKER- Say there's no, there's no legitimate,

1:01:16SPEAKERlike the good news right now, at least,

1:01:19SPEAKERis that anything that exports at DisplayPort

1:01:20SPEAKERprobably also exports HDMI.

1:01:22SPEAKERSo you don't ever need to capture DisplayPort

1:01:24SPEAKER'cause like DisplayPort is strictly for computers

1:01:29SPEAKERtalking to monitors and you shouldn't use it

1:01:30SPEAKERfor anything else, is my understanding at least.

1:01:35SPEAKERThat's pretty much the case, yeah.

1:01:36SPEAKER- I've never plugged a DisplayPort thing

1:01:37SPEAKERinto a capture device in my life.

1:01:39SPEAKER- I don't know that they exist.

1:01:41SPEAKER- I've never seen one, but I'm sure there's probably

1:01:43SPEAKERsome company on the bad list for HDMI

1:01:45SPEAKERthat's making display capture stuff for DisplayPort.

1:01:46SPEAKER- I downloaded, I literally downloaded the 500 page HDMI,

1:01:50SPEAKERor I'm sorry, DisplayPort 1.2 spec sheet

1:01:53SPEAKERto continuity test a cable a month or two ago.

1:01:57SPEAKER- I love pinouts, pinouts, I love 'em.

1:02:00SPEAKEROnce you look at a pinout, the mystery starts going away.

1:02:03SPEAKER- Totally.

1:02:05SPEAKER- Yeah. - It really is just like,

1:02:07SPEAKERoh, this is silly, you're just doing a lead

1:02:10SPEAKERfrom this pin to this pin, and all you are

1:02:12SPEAKERis a silly little cable, you're just the highway

1:02:14SPEAKERtransmitting this data.

1:02:15SPEAKERAnd as long as the highways, as long as this one winds up

1:02:18SPEAKERfrom New York to Albuquerque, this one winds up

1:02:20SPEAKERfrom Philadelphia to this, then we're gonna be fine.

1:02:24SPEAKERAs soon as you wind up from Albuquerque to Philadelphia

1:02:26SPEAKERis where the smoke comes out of the machine.

1:02:29SPEAKER- For better or worse, I think HDMI 2.1 is gonna be the thing

1:02:31SPEAKERfrom now until eternity, or at least until there are

1:02:35SPEAKER16K screens, 'cause I think it does like what,

1:02:37SPEAKER8K 60 or something, I think, point is,

1:02:40SPEAKERwe are stuck with HDMI 4.1.

1:02:42SPEAKER- HDMI, like I said, I think it brought

1:02:46SPEAKERconsumer electronics, like they're short runs,

1:02:48SPEAKERthey're supposed to be short things that go

1:02:50SPEAKERfrom your set top box to your TV, that's it.

1:02:52SPEAKERThey plug it in, don't move it ever,

1:02:54SPEAKERyou're not unplugging this thing a hundred times.

1:02:56SPEAKERWe're the only fools who have 27 devices

1:03:00SPEAKERon our coffee table or thing that have to be like,

1:03:04SPEAKERmy TV has four, I've got this NES mini,

1:03:08SPEAKERI've got my PS3, my PS4, my PS5, I got, I need a thing,

1:03:12SPEAKERI need this switcher now that needs to make sure

1:03:14SPEAKERit takes HDCP, does 4K, has the right color space,

1:03:19SPEAKERis not limited, is doing full, like we'll carry this.

1:03:23SPEAKERHDMI has problems because it's supposed

1:03:28SPEAKERto be consumer friendly, and when you reach a point

1:03:32SPEAKERwhere you're like, I just wanna tell you what to do,

1:03:35SPEAKERand that's a problem.

1:03:36SPEAKER- Brad, the solution to your, hey,

1:03:38SPEAKERI shouldn't be plugging in, unplugging my PS4 all the time

1:03:42SPEAKERis to just have one cable for each device

1:03:45SPEAKERthat always stays plugged into the expensive thing,

1:03:48SPEAKERand then unplug and replug the cheap end.

1:03:50SPEAKERSo like, I have my tech hole that strips HDCP

1:03:56SPEAKERand splits out for monitor and capture card,

1:03:59SPEAKERhas, I always unplug at that end,

1:04:01SPEAKERso I always unplug on the input of that,

1:04:02SPEAKERand then like there's a cable from the Switch dock,

1:04:04SPEAKERthere's a cable from the PS5, four,

1:04:06SPEAKERthere's a cable from the mister,

1:04:09SPEAKERand those don't get unplugged.

1:04:10SPEAKER- 'Cause I've probably plugged and unplugged

1:04:12SPEAKERmy PS5 HDMI like two dozen times already since I got it,

1:04:15SPEAKERand I feel like-- - Don't do that!

1:04:16SPEAKER- I've fucked, dude, I've like burned a quarter

1:04:17SPEAKERof my budget.

1:04:18SPEAKERI don't think that thing's gonna die,

1:04:20SPEAKERthis has made me realize I've got an unused splitter

1:04:22SPEAKERjust sitting here that is going in that chain

1:04:23SPEAKERlike right after this.

1:04:25SPEAKER- Yeah, so-- - I have, for work,

1:04:27SPEAKERwhen I'm playing a game, I will not move the PS,

1:04:30SPEAKERI will use a PS4, my old PS4, which is by my capture thing,

1:04:34SPEAKERuntil I have to bring the PS5 down.

1:04:37SPEAKERLike if I'm playing a thing for work,

1:04:38SPEAKERor what I used to work, just to avoid having to unplug it

1:04:42SPEAKERbecause A, I hate unplugging stuff,

1:04:44SPEAKERbecause I like to think I like neat cable management,

1:04:49SPEAKERand you can never do neat cable management

1:04:51SPEAKERif you're ever unplugging stuff.

1:04:52SPEAKERLike that is the, the bane of cable management is like--

1:04:56SPEAKER- There is some Moore's Law style ratio

1:04:59SPEAKERof like how tidy your cables are

1:05:00SPEAKERto how much of a pain in the ass they are to work with.

1:05:02SPEAKER- That's right, yes. - I'm not quite sure

1:05:04SPEAKERwhat that is yet, but I've definitely been exploring it.

1:05:07SPEAKER- So anyway, so if we went back to whiskey,

1:05:09SPEAKERthat was us trying to, if we go back there,

1:05:13SPEAKERworking in the analog field for a long time,

1:05:16SPEAKERand we crossed over into the digital realm with HDMI stuff,

1:05:20SPEAKERand it was a headache, it was going from,

1:05:23SPEAKERI was a holdout on component for a long time, because--

1:05:27SPEAKER- Did that happen at Giant Bomb?

1:05:29SPEAKERLike I was trying to remember,

1:05:30SPEAKERlike were we capturing mostly component for the first--

1:05:32SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, we had that, we had the breakout cable,

1:05:36SPEAKERbecause it was, it got around the HDCP stuff

1:05:39SPEAKERthat the PS4 introduced, PS3 introduced.

1:05:43SPEAKER- So I just learned that in the last year,

1:05:45SPEAKERas we've been trying to capture stuff at home here,

1:05:46SPEAKERis the PS3 has HDCP that cannot be disabled.

1:05:49SPEAKERLike I literally looked it up in the Elgato knowledge base,

1:05:52SPEAKERand the page for PS3 was just,

1:05:54SPEAKERyou cannot capture a PS3 with Elgato hardware.

1:05:56SPEAKERLike there was no way.

1:05:58SPEAKER- I remember the PS4, when the PS4 and the Xbox One

1:06:01SPEAKERcame out, the second, the console before the current one,

1:06:06SPEAKERbut after the Xbox 360, when it came out,

1:06:09SPEAKERthey both had switches in the UI to turn off HDCP,

1:06:13SPEAKERwhich meant you couldn't watch any Netflix

1:06:14SPEAKERor anything on those boxes, but holy crap,

1:06:17SPEAKERit was easy to capture them all of a sudden.

1:06:18SPEAKER- Yeah, yep.

1:06:20SPEAKER- And the other thing, I don't know if you remember,

1:06:24SPEAKERwhat was it, EDTV, like the half step between SD and HD,

1:06:30SPEAKERand it was like, so 480p.

1:06:32SPEAKER- Is that 480p? Okay, yeah.

1:06:34SPEAKER- Sucks, it's not, I don't even think it's a SMPTE standard.

1:06:36SPEAKERIt's like, I think it's invented.

1:06:37SPEAKER- SMPTE is the standards body that determines resolutions

1:06:40SPEAKERthat are standardized across around the world.

1:06:42SPEAKER- So like a lot of our capture stuff,

1:06:44SPEAKERlike when the Wii was like, hey, 480p,

1:06:46SPEAKERit would be like, oh, will you send me two 480 signals?

1:06:49SPEAKERI don't even know what you think you're doing.

1:06:50SPEAKERIt'd be like, all right, set it to 480i,

1:06:54SPEAKERand then I'll de-interlace it on the backend.

1:06:56SPEAKERLike it just did not, it did not work.

1:07:00SPEAKERAnd the other thing that would happen with old consoles,

1:07:02SPEAKERI'm pretty sure they would send 240,

1:07:06SPEAKER240 lines progressive.

1:07:08SPEAKER- That's what the NES does, the NES does, yeah.

1:07:11SPEAKER- Yeah, and like, nobody likes that.

1:07:13SPEAKERNo capture gear likes that.

1:07:14SPEAKERSo you had to run it through like,

1:07:16SPEAKERbasically the trick used to be put it into your camcorder

1:07:18SPEAKERand then take the video out of your camcorder,

1:07:21SPEAKER'cause that would turn it back into a 480i signal,

1:07:24SPEAKERbecause it could read what was coming in,

1:07:26SPEAKERbut it would put it back out.

1:07:28SPEAKERSo we used to have these little clamshell at GameSpot,

1:07:31SPEAKERthese little clamshell DV decks

1:07:32SPEAKERthat you'd have to put the old console in

1:07:34SPEAKERand then take a video out of our S video.

1:07:36SPEAKERSo moving to HDMI stuff, our cameras were still SDI,

1:07:45SPEAKERand I love SDI, and our switchers were SDI,

1:07:48SPEAKERand we stayed as long as SDI as we could

1:07:50SPEAKERuntil basically they got rid of all the component ports

1:07:53SPEAKERor breakouts of stuff.

1:07:55SPEAKERAnd eventually the signal is clear.

1:07:58SPEAKERI mean, HDMI, a digital signal is gonna be clearer

1:08:01SPEAKERcoming out of that console than an analog signal.

1:08:03SPEAKERSo it was better.

1:08:04SPEAKER- You can't, you know what,

1:08:05SPEAKEReventually you can't fight progress forever

1:08:07SPEAKEReven when it's backwards progress.

1:08:09SPEAKER- But in a production environment,

1:08:11SPEAKERyou want your audio separated from your video.

1:08:15SPEAKERLike you want that audio going into your mixer

1:08:17SPEAKERand you want your audio mixture,

1:08:19SPEAKERyou want your video going into your video mixer.

1:08:21SPEAKERHDMI carries it all and it's a digital signal.

1:08:24SPEAKERSo now you have to strip that audio back out

1:08:27SPEAKERif you wanna get it into your analog audio mixer.

1:08:31SPEAKERAnd to this day, I have not seen a thing that,

1:08:37SPEAKERa mixer that will take an HDMI signal,

1:08:41SPEAKERgive you the audio and then pass back through the HDMI

1:08:45SPEAKERto continue on its journey to your video mixer.

1:08:48SPEAKERYou know what I'm saying?

1:08:49SPEAKERLike basically HDMI ports on your audio mixer

1:08:52SPEAKERto say, hey, plug in your,

1:08:53SPEAKERif you can plug in your PS4 to this audio mixer

1:08:55SPEAKERand then pass it back through

1:08:56SPEAKERand it's just a bridged connection, that's no latency.

1:08:59SPEAKERSo I can take the audio out.

1:09:01SPEAKERAnd I don't know if that's because it's part of a spec

1:09:03SPEAKERof separating out the audio or what, but like we just have-

1:09:06SPEAKER- They don't wanna be on the bad list.

1:09:08SPEAKER- Yeah, you don't wanna be on the bad boy list.

1:09:10SPEAKER- That's it.

1:09:11SPEAKER- But maybe they do have them.

1:09:12SPEAKERI looked for cards even for mixers

1:09:13SPEAKER'cause they would sell like basically the equivalent

1:09:16SPEAKERof like PCIE cards you could put into mixers of like,

1:09:19SPEAKERhey, you can plug this ethernet in or digital or that stuff.

1:09:22SPEAKERI mean, there is digital audio.

1:09:24SPEAKERYeah, it's HDMI for production, pain in the booty.

1:09:28SPEAKER- It's really funny 'cause like in the 10 years

1:09:30SPEAKERthat I've been doing this or 11 years

1:09:32SPEAKERthat I've been doing this now,

1:09:34SPEAKERI remember I went to CES one year or NAB

1:09:37SPEAKERand asked about like capturing old console hardware.

1:09:42SPEAKERIt was like, hey, your card doesn't support NES resolutions.

1:09:46SPEAKERAnd they were like, well, why the hell would I?

1:09:47SPEAKERThat's a 30 year old game console.

1:09:49SPEAKERWhy would anybody wanna do that?

1:09:50SPEAKERYou weird pervert.

1:09:51SPEAKERAnd now it's like, you know,

1:09:55SPEAKERthere's people who spend their entire productive

1:09:58SPEAKERadult careers capturing and playing old NES games.

1:10:01SPEAKER- It's a cottage industry.

1:10:02SPEAKERLike that new retro tank 5X just came out

1:10:04SPEAKERand people were like losing their minds over it

1:10:06SPEAKER'cause it's a fantastic way.

1:10:07SPEAKER- They sold out in like eight minutes, yeah.

1:10:09SPEAKER- Totally, totally.

1:10:10SPEAKER- I remember talking to NewTek

1:10:12SPEAKERand I remember talking about something.

1:10:16SPEAKERI was like, hey, when are you guys doing 1080p 60?

1:10:21SPEAKERAnd they're like, the demand's just not there.

1:10:23SPEAKER(laughing)

1:10:24SPEAKER- God, we were on that 720p TriCaster for so long.

1:10:28SPEAKER- Yeah.

1:10:29SPEAKER- We tested, still had that until real recently.

1:10:31SPEAKERThey used it for a lot.

1:10:32SPEAKERWe used it for a long time.

1:10:35SPEAKER- Well, broadcast was on 1080i.

1:10:37SPEAKERThey did interlaced a lot and 1080p 30 and not,

1:10:42SPEAKERwho's doing 60 frames a second progressive?

1:10:44SPEAKERWhat are you doing over there?

1:10:46SPEAKERWhat are you, the NFL?

1:10:47SPEAKERLike, what do you need this for?

1:10:50SPEAKER- You doing tennis?

1:10:51SPEAKERYou got the tennis?

1:10:52SPEAKER- Like are you doing slow motion replays

1:10:54SPEAKERwhere you need to have like every frame there?

1:10:57SPEAKERAnd it'd be like, no, we wanna play the new Call of Duty.

1:11:00SPEAKERRecord it, it's streaming out.

1:11:02SPEAKER- It doesn't look right.

1:11:03SPEAKERIt doesn't look right.

1:11:04SPEAKER- You remember the drubbing we took from people for years

1:11:06SPEAKERfor not moving up to 108060 because they were looking

1:11:10SPEAKERat the consumer hardware that was coming out, you know?

1:11:11SPEAKERLike El Gato got to 1080p 60 before NewTek did.

1:11:14SPEAKER- Yeah. - Way before, right?

1:11:16SPEAKER- Before like Blackmagic did.

1:11:18SPEAKER- Right, and people just could not understand

1:11:20SPEAKERlike there's consumer hardware on the market that does this,

1:11:23SPEAKERbut we're not using consumer hardware

1:11:25SPEAKERin this elaborate studio.

1:11:26SPEAKERWe need like broadcast stuff in here.

1:11:28SPEAKER- Can we talk for a second?

1:11:30SPEAKERThis is one of my favorite things,

1:11:32SPEAKERand I apologize for the background noise.

1:11:33SPEAKERMy neighbors are doing construction today,

1:11:34SPEAKERso there's like weird compressor noise occasionally.

1:11:37SPEAKERBut can we talk about bit rate versus resolution

1:11:42SPEAKERversus video quality?

1:11:44SPEAKERAnd like, there's a, if one goes up, the other goes down,

1:11:50SPEAKERthere's an inverse relationship between those.

1:11:52SPEAKERIf everything else stays equal,

1:11:54SPEAKERthat I think a lot of people don't understand,

1:11:56SPEAKERand they just look at the player on their video,

1:11:58SPEAKERon YouTube or Twitch or whatever, and they see,

1:12:00SPEAKER"Dude, this isn't 1080, what the hell, man?"

1:12:03SPEAKER- Right, so you can have a 4K stream at a garbage bit rate,

1:12:09SPEAKERand it'll just look like four blocks moving around

1:12:12SPEAKERon a screen, right?

1:12:13SPEAKEREven though the resolution, the size of the frame is fine,

1:12:16SPEAKERthe pixels should be there, but the bit rate's terrible.

1:12:18SPEAKERSo the information-

1:12:19SPEAKER- If the bit rate is low enough,

1:12:21SPEAKERit'll just be macro block to hell,

1:12:22SPEAKERand it's like worthless to have a four.

1:12:24SPEAKERThe bit rate is basically just a budget, right?

1:12:25SPEAKERIt's a data budget.

1:12:26SPEAKERIt's how much information per like unit of time

1:12:29SPEAKERthat you can pack in to give detail to the frames, right?

1:12:32SPEAKER- Yeah, okay, so there's resolution, there's bit rate.

1:12:35SPEAKERSo resolution is the number of pixels on the screen.

1:12:38SPEAKER1920 by 1080, 2160 by, or 30, whatever, four times that.

1:12:44SPEAKER- 3840 by 2160 is 4K.

1:12:46SPEAKER- Thank you, I never can remember that one.

1:12:48SPEAKERThere's bit rate, which is the number of bits per second.

1:12:50SPEAKERThere's the codec, which is also important,

1:12:52SPEAKER'cause that's like H.264, H.265, MPEG-2,

1:12:55SPEAKERwhich is the amount that the data can be compressed

1:13:00SPEAKERand retained in quality.

1:13:00SPEAKER- Yeah, so generally newer codecs,

1:13:03SPEAKERyou will get better visual quality,

1:13:04SPEAKERlike perceptive quality at the same bit rate number,

1:13:07SPEAKERbecause they're more efficient.

1:13:08SPEAKER- But that comes at an expense of computation per second

1:13:10SPEAKERon both the sending and receiving ends.

1:13:12SPEAKER- Right, on the packing and unpacking, yeah.

1:13:16SPEAKERIt's a bit, yeah, they squeeze it even tighter,

1:13:19SPEAKERand it's just like, how fast can you un-squeeze it,

1:13:21SPEAKERand your computer's gonna melt.

1:13:22SPEAKER- So like Twitch, for example,

1:13:26SPEAKERI think you're not supposed to send

1:13:28SPEAKERmore than 6,000 bits per second.

1:13:30SPEAKER- Yeah, for partners, it's eight megabit,

1:13:33SPEAKERor 8,000 kilobyte.

1:13:35SPEAKERI believe regular accounts are limited to six.

1:13:37SPEAKERI think that just goes up if you get partner status.

1:13:39SPEAKER- I send 10, and they don't complain anymore.

1:13:42SPEAKER- So I've done that.

1:13:43SPEAKERWe've experimented with this stuff a ton over the last year.

1:13:45SPEAKERI was trying like 10 and 12, and it would accept it,

1:13:48SPEAKERbut then I would look at the player on Twitch,

1:13:50SPEAKERand it was busting it down to 720.

1:13:51SPEAKERSo it was like letting me give them a higher bit rate,

1:13:54SPEAKERbut it was not letting me put out the full resolution.

1:13:55SPEAKERIt was a weird thing.

1:13:56SPEAKER- The thing that happens is their encoders,

1:13:59SPEAKERtheir like transcoders don't like that.

1:14:01SPEAKERSo if you have somebody who's connecting

1:14:03SPEAKERwith a worse connection, or is on mobile,

1:14:05SPEAKERor is on a TV, or something,

1:14:06SPEAKERdoesn't support those higher bit rates,

1:14:08SPEAKERthen those people's experience suffers.

1:14:10SPEAKERSo that's why it seems like eight to 10 is the sweet spot,

1:14:14SPEAKERif you wanna cheat a little bit, but not too much.

1:14:16SPEAKER- And there's also the haves and have-nots situation

1:14:18SPEAKERon Twitch, right, of you don't get transcode,

1:14:20SPEAKERlike quality settings, unless you're partnered, I believe.

1:14:23SPEAKERIs that the split?

1:14:24SPEAKER- As a streamer, yeah, as somebody streams.

1:14:26SPEAKER- Yes, like you have to reach that tier,

1:14:28SPEAKERthat elite tier, to offer people better quality options.

1:14:31SPEAKER- There's hundreds of thousands of partners.

1:14:33SPEAKERIt's not like it's super elite these days.

1:14:35SPEAKER- I know, I know, but it is something.

1:14:37SPEAKERDo you guys, I don't know how deep we wanna get

1:14:38SPEAKERinto this stuff, but do you guys have any idea,

1:14:40SPEAKERlike why is RTMP still the thing?

1:14:43SPEAKERBecause it's like a dead protocol.

1:14:45SPEAKERWhy do they still only accept like--

1:14:47SPEAKER- Select RTMP, Brad.

1:14:48SPEAKER- That's the, we've mentioned codecs.

1:14:51SPEAKERWe have not mentioned protocols.

1:14:53SPEAKERCodecs are the thing that compress the signal,

1:14:54SPEAKERlike the image, right?

1:14:56SPEAKERLike that's the thing that makes the high quality video

1:14:57SPEAKERlower quality with the benefit of being smaller.

1:15:01SPEAKERThe protocol is sort of the pipe or the wrapper.

1:15:05SPEAKERBut the video that is compressed by the codec

1:15:07SPEAKERis packaged in and sent across the internet.

1:15:08SPEAKER- That the codec's in, yeah.

1:15:10SPEAKER- The protocol is essentially how the video stream

1:15:12SPEAKERis sliced up into packets.

1:15:13SPEAKERLike in what way is this continuous stream of data

1:15:18SPEAKERturned into slices of data that can be sent

1:15:20SPEAKERin a piecemeal fashion, right?

1:15:21SPEAKERSo like RTMP is what, an Adobe protocol?

1:15:25SPEAKER- Is it owned?

1:15:26SPEAKERIs it owned by Adobe?

1:15:28SPEAKER- I swear it was developed by--

1:15:32SPEAKER- While you're looking this up, I have a metaphor.

1:15:33SPEAKER- Macro Media developed RTMP, that's how old it is.

1:15:36SPEAKER- It is owned by Adobe then.

1:15:37SPEAKER- Yeah, so yeah, but it's like, the thing I read, I think,

1:15:41SPEAKERis they ceased development of it in 2012.

1:15:43SPEAKER- Well, everybody has it.

1:15:45SPEAKERYou know, like it's a, you just want that SRT, that's all.

1:15:49SPEAKER- I mean, there's all kinds of better stuff, man.

1:15:52SPEAKERThere's like, before Mixer went away,

1:15:54SPEAKERthey had their own protocol called FTL

1:15:55SPEAKERthat seemed very good.

1:15:56SPEAKERLike, there's just better protocols and better codecs

1:15:59SPEAKERout there than what is generally in use today.

1:16:01SPEAKERAnd I don't know when we're gonna get to the next step.

1:16:04SPEAKER- So, you know, a thing to remember about this stuff

1:16:06SPEAKERas you expand into data centers

1:16:08SPEAKERand places that are doing all of this stuff

1:16:10SPEAKERand you're sending your video is they have invested

1:16:13SPEAKERa lot of money on a certain technology

1:16:15SPEAKERand they build out those data centers

1:16:17SPEAKERand the cost to them bring everything out of RTMP

1:16:21SPEAKERinto SRT is extraordinary.

1:16:24SPEAKERLike, you know, I don't know if you could just

1:16:28SPEAKERdo a software update and do that.

1:16:30SPEAKERI don't know that information, but like, you know,

1:16:32SPEAKERthese things are happening on computers that are,

1:16:35SPEAKERyou know, in city blocks, you know,

1:16:37SPEAKERthese Amazon data centers and all these things,

1:16:39SPEAKERyou're gonna tell them to be like, SRT is better.

1:16:42SPEAKERBe like, how much is it gonna cost?

1:16:44SPEAKERWell, we basically got to upgrade every machine.

1:16:46SPEAKERYou know, also there's overhead, you know,

1:16:48SPEAKERand all of that stuff.

1:16:49SPEAKER- Well, especially on the codec end,

1:16:51SPEAKERthere is actual hardware there that you need

1:16:53SPEAKERto be able to compress and decompress that stuff.

1:16:55SPEAKERAnd on top of their infrastructure needing to be upgraded,

1:16:58SPEAKERthey also have to support a user base

1:16:59SPEAKERthat might be using like pretty old hardware, right?

1:17:01SPEAKERLike, not everybody is capable of sending H.265

1:17:05SPEAKERin real time to Twitch.

1:17:06SPEAKERSo they do have to accommodate a lot of,

1:17:07SPEAKERlike a broad range of people.

1:17:09SPEAKER- Well, and often there's trade-offs.

1:17:10SPEAKERSo like if we switch from RTMP to open SRT,

1:17:15SPEAKERthen like that might be easy and fine.

1:17:18SPEAKERBut if we switch codecs from H.264 to H.265,

1:17:20SPEAKERthe real time H.264 encoders are pretty good.

1:17:22SPEAKERI have no idea what the status

1:17:24SPEAKERof real time H.265 encoders is.

1:17:26SPEAKERSo you might go from like having, you know,

1:17:28SPEAKER30 milliseconds of latency or 300 milliseconds of latency

1:17:31SPEAKERfrom like stream to Twitch

1:17:34SPEAKERto having three seconds of latency or something, you know.

1:17:38SPEAKER- Yeah, the modern Nvidia cards

1:17:40SPEAKERwith NVENC support do H.265 very well.

1:17:42SPEAKERBut that is to my point that a lot of people,

1:17:44SPEAKERespecially right now, nobody can buy those damn things.

1:17:47SPEAKER- Well, that's just RTX cards that support H.265.

1:17:50SPEAKERI think the three. - The 2000 and up.

1:17:53SPEAKERBut that's the point though.

1:17:53SPEAKERLike a lot of people don't have those cards,

1:17:55SPEAKERso they don't have that capability.

1:17:56SPEAKERSo I guess, you know,

1:17:57SPEAKERI get why they don't make the investment

1:17:58SPEAKERto support that stuff yet, but like.

1:18:00SPEAKER- Which you can't lag behind too much.

1:18:02SPEAKERLike as you get into 4K and more people,

1:18:04SPEAKERor there's an expanding ceiling, right?

1:18:08SPEAKERBut the floor stays the same.

1:18:10SPEAKERSo you have to serve everybody, right?

1:18:12SPEAKERAnd that's where like HLS streams come in,

1:18:14SPEAKERwhich are basically like,

1:18:16SPEAKERhey, we'll auto detect what your bandwidth is here

1:18:19SPEAKERand we'll try and serve you the appropriate version

1:18:21SPEAKERof the stream, we'll bust it down.

1:18:22SPEAKERBut, you know, the thing that some people

1:18:26SPEAKERwho just consume this stuff don't realize is to say,

1:18:29SPEAKERwe could talk about this explicitly 'cause we deal with it,

1:18:31SPEAKERis when we move from 720p to 1080p,

1:18:34SPEAKERWill was just talking about bandwidth and kinda data rates.

1:18:38SPEAKERA higher data rate means more information,

1:18:40SPEAKERmeans that file is bigger.

1:18:42SPEAKERYou know, you've just increased your storage,

1:18:45SPEAKERyour computational overhead,

1:18:47SPEAKERand the amount you have to crunch, like you just said,

1:18:50SPEAKERWill, like on making that thing low latency

1:18:52SPEAKERbefore you can spit it out the door.

1:18:53SPEAKERYou can't send, video is coming out uncompressed.

1:18:56SPEAKERYou then have to put it into a compressed format

1:18:58SPEAKERto send it to the internet.

1:18:59SPEAKERSo you gotta take something big, make it small,

1:19:01SPEAKERget it out there, and then the other side has to say,