6: Spray the Frame Hose

00:00SPEAKERHello, Will. Welcome to our tech pod.

00:01SPEAKEROh, hi, Brad. Welcome to our tech pod. It's good to see you. So

00:06SPEAKERsomething a little different today. If you are just joining

00:09SPEAKERus, you may or may not know that we recorded a couple of episodes

00:14SPEAKERbefore we did the first episode. You've heard one of them, the

00:17SPEAKERorigin stories one, but this is the one we did before that.

00:20SPEAKERBecause, Brad, you have a monitor problem.

00:23SPEAKERI know, man, let's not get into it. They're gonna hear plenty

00:25SPEAKERabout that. Let's just let them absorb it naturally into the

00:29SPEAKERskin. So anyway, this is the episode we recorded. We didn't

00:32SPEAKERknow what the show was called. We knew what we wanted to do. But

00:37SPEAKERwe just sat down and we both did some research on monitors, and

00:41SPEAKERmonitor technology and refresh rates. And we talked about it

00:44SPEAKERfor a bit. Screens, how screens work. There's a lot of good

00:48SPEAKERstuff in here. And we wanted to make sure we get this one out,

00:51SPEAKEReven though it's a little raw, before the information gets too

00:54SPEAKERstale.

00:55SPEAKERYeah, yeah, we're worried about the because we talked about OLED

00:58SPEAKERand refresh rates and adaptive sync and like all kinds of

01:03SPEAKERscreen stuff. But you know, that stuff is changing so fast that

01:06SPEAKERit could get musty if we waited for much longer. So

01:09SPEAKERso I guess we should start the show. But don't it's gonna end.

01:13SPEAKERBut it's not over when it ends. Don't skip to the next podcast.

01:16SPEAKERWe're gonna come back back with two months worth of updates. We

01:19SPEAKERhave some emails, we'll let you know what happens with the

01:22SPEAKERquestions, the cliffhangers in the episode. And yeah, we'll

01:27SPEAKERwe'll tell you to like us on iTunes.

01:57SPEAKEROkay, well, let's, let's, let's, let's make out, let's cast a

02:03SPEAKERpod. All right, let's try this. So how do we start it? I don't

02:07SPEAKERknow what it's called. I mean, maybe we just started by say,

02:10SPEAKERhow do we start it? Okay, you know, yeah. Hey, welcome,

02:12SPEAKEReverybody. I'm Will. I'm Brad. We, we wanted to do a tech

02:18SPEAKERpodcast. Yeah. When we don't know what to call it or how it's

02:20SPEAKERstructured. Yeah, we're, I think we I think we have an idea of

02:23SPEAKERhow it's structured. Okay. blueprint. Let's see, to avoid

02:27SPEAKERdoing the lame thing where you spend the first five minutes

02:29SPEAKERtalking about the podcast, the basic pitch is, we want to talk

02:32SPEAKERabout a single topic every week, kind of really dig in in a way

02:37SPEAKERthat neither of us ever get to do in our on our real jobs. It

02:41SPEAKERfeels self indulgent in those contexts. Yes, yes. So we're

02:45SPEAKERgonna this is a pilot episode, we're gonna kick it off by

02:48SPEAKERtalking about refresh rate, everybody's favorite. It's the

02:52SPEAKERsexiest, the most invigorating, exciting topic. So screen

02:56SPEAKERrefresh, we've been talking about this for ages pixels. And

03:00SPEAKERlike, this has been one of those ideas that was on the back

03:02SPEAKERburner the whole time. It's like, you know, what about

03:05SPEAKERrefresh rate? It's the Yeah, there's G sync. There's all the

03:08SPEAKERiPad stuff. There's TVs coming out with new refresh rates

03:11SPEAKERsoon. It's, it's complicated. And it's kind of interesting.

03:15SPEAKERBecause the thing I didn't realize, why do why do we have a

03:17SPEAKER60 hertz? Why is 60 hertz the default refresh rate? Brad? Do

03:20SPEAKERyou know this pop quiz? Yeah. You're this? Our first segment

03:24SPEAKERis Brad takes the question. Nice round number. It is a good round

03:28SPEAKERnumber. visible by 15. I don't know. It's because when we had

03:34SPEAKERanalog TVs, when analog TVs were first being built, was there is

03:38SPEAKERthere is there is there is physics based reason there.

03:40SPEAKERThere is an electrical engineering reason for that. Now

03:43SPEAKERI'm on board. We couldn't build power supplies that isolated the

03:47SPEAKERelectrical line noise that came out of the AC wall plugs from

03:52SPEAKERthe cathode ray tubes. So rather than build a whole bunch of

03:55SPEAKERincredibly expensive, complicated isolating circuits

03:57SPEAKERand put them in the back of the CRTs that probably wouldn't have

04:00SPEAKERworked well anyway to get rid of the noise that came from the

04:03SPEAKERwall. They just made it the same as the refresh rate of the AC

04:08SPEAKERpower. It's actually just a workaround. It's because the

04:10SPEAKERpower that comes out of our wall is 120 hertz. Wow. It's what

04:13SPEAKERthat's why just needed a refresh that synced with that. That's

04:16SPEAKERexactly right. Incredible. So I mean, it's terrible. Here's

04:19SPEAKERhere's the next question. Yes. Think about pal. Wow. 50 hertz

04:24SPEAKERpal. Okay. Okay. Yeah, different power. Different power standard.

04:27SPEAKERYeah. Same thing. Japan all Yeah. What is it? 100? They're

04:31SPEAKERhundred hertz. 50 hertz. Yeah. So yeah, they can blank it out

04:33SPEAKERon the 50. Okay. So yeah. Huh? Right. Wow. Right. That's

04:37SPEAKERridiculous. All of this. All of this 60 hertz. We've been hearing

04:40SPEAKER60 hertz our whole life. You can't see more than 60 hertz. It

04:43SPEAKERdoesn't matter. Can't see where the 24 hertz it doesn't matter.

04:46SPEAKERBecause electrical engineering in the 30s little that's like

04:50SPEAKERthat's incredibly impressive from a problem solving

04:52SPEAKERstandpoint. And also super frustrating from a modern day. I

04:55SPEAKERwant to do things standpoint. So the good news is we're getting

04:59SPEAKERpast that now. Like we've reached a point when we shifted

05:01SPEAKERto two LCDs, which don't have like a tube and get they're all

05:06SPEAKERdigital. They don't they don't draw from top to bottom. Not

05:08SPEAKERthat problem. Yeah. Like we could have made this change then.

05:11SPEAKERBut these things take time. So 20 years later, here we are ready

05:15SPEAKERto finally move beyond 60 hertz in a way that makes sense.

05:20SPEAKERThat's all I got. That's pretty much the whole show. Okay, we

05:22SPEAKERwant to see you all next screens. They're better than they

05:24SPEAKERused to be professional breakdown of this. I mean, like

05:29SPEAKERI think about this all the time in a bunch of content. Like I've

05:32SPEAKERgot an iPad Pro in front of me. That's 120 hertz. Yeah. And yet

05:35SPEAKERI have two Dell 2005 fpws from 2005. Really? Those are my

05:41SPEAKERmonitors. Still, almost 15 year old monitors that are still

05:46SPEAKERgoing. You've probably paid more to power those now. I paid for

05:50SPEAKERthe monitor many times over several times. They've got one

05:52SPEAKERlike a fluorescent tube as a backlight probably. So I'm sure

05:55SPEAKERthat they suck electricity like nobody's business. Wow. What a

06:00SPEAKERthey refuse to die. That's I have one in my garage. They just

06:03SPEAKERwon't quit. They won't quite like thousands and thousands of

06:06SPEAKERanyway. It's just it's a DVI, right? One DVI, one VGA. Also,

06:12SPEAKERit takes two resolutions. 1680 by 1050, which is native, and

06:16SPEAKER1280 by 1024. Those are the only two resolutions those monitors

06:19SPEAKERwill take. If you try to feed it anything else like it. Wait,

06:22SPEAKERthey're not 1080p monitors? No. Oh my God. It's terrible. It's

06:27SPEAKERtime to have an intervention. But I've been trying to buy a

06:29SPEAKERmonitor for years and years, and I just can't find the thing that

06:34SPEAKERhas everything I want. Okay, so let's let's talk. Oh, God, this

06:39SPEAKERso you play games, obviously. Yes. On your personal computer.

06:42SPEAKERNo. Yeah, you want you want a higher refresh rate monitor to I

06:46SPEAKEReven want to hire the 1080 screen would be a massive

06:49SPEAKERimprovement for me at this point. So an HDMI port. Yeah,

06:54SPEAKERHDMI port seems like it'd be really useful for you on a

06:57SPEAKERcouple of different levels. Yeah. So okay, here's here's the

07:00SPEAKERdeal. monitors now, especially high end PC monitors support

07:04SPEAKERadaptive sync. So in the old days, back when we were talking

07:08SPEAKERabout CRTs, what would happen is whatever you plugged into the

07:10SPEAKERmonitor, the monitor would just redraw the gun that drew the

07:14SPEAKERpitch through the illuminated the phosphorus on the back of

07:16SPEAKERthe glass tube would start at the top of the screen and do a

07:20SPEAKERline. And it would every six 1/60 of a second, it would just

07:24SPEAKERstart at the top and do another line electronic gun, the

07:26SPEAKERelectronic gun. So it's a good band name. Oh, God, yeah, it

07:30SPEAKERreally is. In the old days, it would just look at whatever's in

07:34SPEAKERthe frame buffer of the video card, you know, the basically

07:36SPEAKERthe Hey, here, put this on the screen bit of the video card,

07:38SPEAKERhere's the next frame, here's the next frame. And, and it

07:41SPEAKERwould draw whatever was in there. And as a result of that,

07:44SPEAKERif your frame rate was running faster than the the 60 hertz 60

07:49SPEAKERframes a second, then it would sometimes get like halfway down.

07:53SPEAKERAnd there would be a new and the frame would switch in the in

07:56SPEAKERthe video card buffer. So like, it would draw the top half of

07:58SPEAKERone frame and the bottom half of the second frame and you have

08:01SPEAKERlike a big nasty jagged tear across. This is what we call

08:03SPEAKERtearing everybody. I mean, I assume everybody knows this,

08:06SPEAKERbut you know, we explain things just just to be safe. It's good

08:09SPEAKERpodcast, I think. Yes. As a result of that, as a result of

08:13SPEAKERthe monitor deciding what the refresh rate is not the not the

08:16SPEAKERdevice that's actually generating the frames, you would

08:18SPEAKERhave tearing and other problems like micro stuttering and

08:20SPEAKERstuttering and stuff like that. Now, as of like five years ago,

08:26SPEAKER2013, 2014, Nvidia started this thing called - released a thing

08:31SPEAKERcalled G-Sync, which basically makes it work the other way. The

08:35SPEAKERcomputer says, "Hey, monitor, I got a frame for you. Are you

08:38SPEAKERready?" And the monitor is like, "Yeah, I'm ready." And then the

08:40SPEAKERcomputer blasts the frame over and the monitor draws it. So

08:44SPEAKERit's the computer saying, "Hey, here's the number of frames we

08:47SPEAKERhave for you. Here's the timing for them." And there's some

08:50SPEAKERlogic on the board - on the monitor that's like, "Oh, okay,

08:53SPEAKERwe can't - we're not ready for another frame yet, or we are ready

08:56SPEAKERfor another frame yet to avoid having like micro stutters and

08:58SPEAKERstuff like that." It's a two-way transaction now. Instead of the

09:00SPEAKERcomputer just turning its frame hose on and spraying the

09:03SPEAKERmonitor indiscriminately. I don't think I ever want to hear

09:06SPEAKERabout frame hoses spraying again, but yes, that is

09:09SPEAKERexactly right. They talk to each other now instead of the -

09:11SPEAKERIt's a conversation. Instead of the video card just saying,

09:13SPEAKER"Here, do this." Yeah, it's like a podcast between the

09:15SPEAKERmonitor and the computer. Am I the G-Sync monitor in this

09:19SPEAKERsituation, Mark? Yeah, I'll take that role. I'm the frame

09:23SPEAKERhose. Oh, damn. So, okay, so NVIDIA came out with G-Sync

09:29SPEAKERshortly after AMD came out with FreeSync. Oh, G-Sync came

09:34SPEAKERafter FreeSync? No, no. AMD was after. I'm sorry. Yeah,

09:37SPEAKERyeah, yeah. Switch that, reverse it. And FreeSync is an

09:39SPEAKERopen standard. FreeSync is an open standard that I think

09:42SPEAKERended up being mostly rolled into the VISA standard, which

09:45SPEAKERdetermines what HDMI and all the other kind of monitor

09:48SPEAKERconnectors work. Okay. So there's a VISA adaptive sync,

09:51SPEAKERwhich a lot of monitors and soon TVs are going to support

09:54SPEAKERas well. So yeah, not to get ahead of ourselves, but are the

09:59SPEAKERfeatures like adaptive sync that are making their way into

10:01SPEAKERthe new HDMI spec? Are those also under the VISA umbrella or

10:03SPEAKERis that a different consortium? So I think VISA - I didn't

10:07SPEAKERactually look at this. Not to derail, but I would do an

10:10SPEAKERentire podcast about the consortiums that define the

10:12SPEAKERtech standards of our lives. That's the big one. We're

10:16SPEAKERgoing to work up to that. We got to ease into this. Help me

10:18SPEAKERdifferentiate from between our IEEEs and our VISA's and our...

10:23SPEAKERLook, this is an ISO 9001 podcast. Our OpenGL ARBs and

10:28SPEAKERwho are these shadowy cabal of people that are controlling our

10:31SPEAKERtech lives? Look, there's groups. So... You know what? We

10:35SPEAKERneed to find who defined the USB standard. That was Intel,

10:39SPEAKERApple... Destroy them. It was Intel, Apple, Sony, Sharp and...

10:47SPEAKERI can't remember the last... There were five companies that

10:50SPEAKERformed the USB... The initial USB?

10:52SPEAKERYeah. Somebody in that group that decided that it should not

10:54SPEAKERbe a reversible plug. I think it was Intel originally. I don't

10:57SPEAKERknow who designed the physical connector. It only took them

11:00SPEAKER22 years to get to the point that the connector could flip

11:03SPEAKERand now nobody uses it anyway. Anyway. So yeah. VISA determined...

11:09SPEAKERThe VISA standards org, which has been the monitor people for

11:12SPEAKERdecades, figured out, "Hey, we're going to use this FreeSync

11:17SPEAKERstuff. It's not encumbered." Basically, the thing with

11:20SPEAKERNVIDIA's standard G-Sync is that you have to use one of

11:25SPEAKERtheir licensed scalers in order for it to work.

11:28SPEAKERIn order to get away with calling it a G-Sync monitor?

11:31SPEAKERYeah. If you want G-Sync, if you want to put the G-Sync

11:33SPEAKERsticker on it...

11:33SPEAKERYou're not NVIDIA approved unless you...

11:37SPEAKERWell, then that's why those monitors... A, those monitors

11:39SPEAKERare more expensive because they're higher frame rate

11:41SPEAKERmonitors, which is a more expensive piece of hardware,

11:43SPEAKERobviously.

11:43SPEAKERAlready.

11:44SPEAKERYeah. But then they also have to have the licensed hardware,

11:46SPEAKERthe licensed scaler. It's a really specific set of chips.

11:52SPEAKERThose scalers have almost a gigabyte of memory on them,

11:54SPEAKERwhich is bananas.

11:55SPEAKERWow. Okay.

11:56SPEAKERYeah. At a glance, I haven't crunched the numbers

11:59SPEAKERcomprehensively, but at a glance, it's a stiff premium.

12:03SPEAKERG-Sync monitors are a lot compared to what you would get

12:06SPEAKERin, say, a FreeSync monitor of comparable specs.

12:09SPEAKERYeah. So it's been a while since I looked at the actual

12:11SPEAKERpricing, but it's usually at least a $200 premium.

12:13SPEAKERThis seems to be my...

12:16SPEAKERSo when that's almost half the price of the monitor,

12:18SPEAKERwell, it's hard to swallow.

12:19SPEAKERAnd it only works with NVIDIA graphics.

12:21SPEAKERAnd the end of that.

12:22SPEAKERYeah. So I mean, it'll work as a normal monitor with any

12:24SPEAKERgraphics card, but if you want the adaptive sync stuff,

12:26SPEAKERyou have to use an NVIDIA card.

12:27SPEAKERNow that we're getting into this world where TVs are going

12:29SPEAKERto start supporting that soon, that's a problem.

12:32SPEAKERRight. Well, and G-Sync...

12:32SPEAKEROne of many things that has stopped me from buying a new

12:34SPEAKERmonitor and video card.

12:36SPEAKERG-Sync for a really long time has been DisplayPort only.

12:38SPEAKERSo no HDMI.

12:39SPEAKEROkay.

12:42SPEAKEROkay. So that's the NVIDIA side.

12:43SPEAKERThe AMD side works on HDMI and DisplayPort.

12:46SPEAKEROkay.

12:47SPEAKERIt's a little bit tiny, tiny bit less overhead.

12:52SPEAKERIt's like a 1.5% performance difference in the amount of

12:55SPEAKERoverhead that has to happen on the rendering side for

12:58SPEAKERFreeSync versus G-Sync.

13:01SPEAKERIt doesn't matter.

13:02SPEAKERI didn't know there was a performance here.

13:03SPEAKERI mean, that's not that.

13:03SPEAKERIt's pretty inconsequential.

13:06SPEAKERYeah.

13:10SPEAKEROther than that, more or less the same.

13:11SPEAKERI mean, FreeSync works the same way.

13:14SPEAKERThe computer is telling the monitor,

13:16SPEAKER"Hey, you should draw a frame."

13:17SPEAKEROne of the interesting side effects of this is that the

13:19SPEAKERmonitor only redraws the screen when something changes.

13:23SPEAKERSo if you have your wallpaper up and the desktop and

13:27SPEAKERnothing's changed on the desktop, it's not going to send

13:30SPEAKERa new frame.

13:30SPEAKERIt's just sitting there, displaying the same frame.

13:32SPEAKERInteresting.

13:33SPEAKERYeah.

13:33SPEAKEROkay.

13:33SPEAKERIt's weird, right?

13:35SPEAKERWhich doesn't make any difference at all on desktop

13:37SPEAKERmachines, but on mobile, adaptive frame rates can actually

13:41SPEAKERreduce the cost the battery use.

13:44SPEAKEROh, wow.

13:44SPEAKERYeah.

13:45SPEAKERBecause you're refreshing, especially on an OLED screen.

13:49SPEAKERRefreshing the screen costs something.

13:52SPEAKERIlluminating the screen obviously costs something,

13:54SPEAKERbut there's less battery use when you're not refreshing

13:59SPEAKERthe screen constantly.

14:01SPEAKERIs AdaptiveSync in any mobile product yet?

14:04SPEAKERLaptops.

14:04SPEAKERI hadn't even thought about that.

14:05SPEAKEROkay.

14:05SPEAKERYeah.

14:06SPEAKERYou can get G-Sync and FreeSync laptops.

14:09SPEAKERI mean, yeah, you're sitting in front of one, actually.

14:12SPEAKERWell, I've got this iPad Pro that's 120Hz.

14:15SPEAKERI mean, that's a high refresh, but is it adaptive as well?

14:17SPEAKERIt's adaptive as well.

14:17SPEAKERIs it really?

14:18SPEAKERYeah.

14:18SPEAKERSo it only updates when the screen changes.

14:21SPEAKEROkay.

14:22SPEAKERSo Apple's thing is called...

14:26SPEAKERWhat do they call it?

14:26SPEAKERProMotion?

14:27SPEAKERWell, it turns out ProMotion, all one word with an intercapped

14:32SPEAKERM is just the word promotion.

14:35SPEAKERSo I feel like their marketing team dropped the ball.

14:37SPEAKERThey should have called it like Greasy Liquid or something.

14:40SPEAKERI don't know.

14:40SPEAKERSteve Jobs would never have allowed this.

14:42SPEAKERSo that's a liquid retina screen.

14:46SPEAKERIs that right?

14:46SPEAKERI think they call the...

14:47SPEAKERYou mean in marketing terms?

14:48SPEAKERThe HDR ones are liquid retina ProMotion.

14:52SPEAKERI don't know.

14:53SPEAKERI'm not sure if this is an HDR or not.

14:54SPEAKERIt might be.

14:55SPEAKERI think all the iPad Pros were HDR.

14:57SPEAKEROkay.

14:57SPEAKERThis is a 10.5.

14:58SPEAKERSo it's the previous model.

14:59SPEAKERYeah.

15:00SPEAKEROh, it's not the new fancy bezel-less one.

15:03SPEAKERI think it is.

15:04SPEAKERBut anyway, the point we're not talking about HDR.

15:07SPEAKERThat's a whole other hour.

15:10SPEAKERToo much going on in screens.

15:11SPEAKERYeah.

15:11SPEAKERI mean, you should be...

15:13SPEAKERScreens were the thing that you bought.

15:14SPEAKERI bought a 19 inch CRT at one point and then use that for almost 10 years.

15:19SPEAKERYeah.

15:19SPEAKERLike that was my monitor for ages.

15:21SPEAKERYou can't do that anymore, unfortunately.

15:24SPEAKEROkay.

15:24SPEAKERSo we have G-Sync, FreeSync, the VISA Adaptive Sync, which is part of HDMI 1.2a, I think.

15:32SPEAKEROr 4.2a.

15:32SPEAKERSorry.

15:33SPEAKERHDMI 2.1?

15:35SPEAKER2.1.

15:35SPEAKER2.1 is the one that is just now starting to trickle out.

15:38SPEAKERAnd that's the one that the new Xbox and PlayStation are thought to adopt.

15:43SPEAKERYeah.

15:43SPEAKEROr surely will adopt.

15:44SPEAKERThere's no way they won't, right?

15:46SPEAKERVariable refresh rate.

15:47SPEAKERI would assume.

15:48SPEAKERI would be shocked if they don't support variable refresh rates on these new consoles.

15:51SPEAKERUnless they do an Xbox One S situation where they roll out a mid-season.

15:57SPEAKEROh, that's right.

15:58SPEAKERThe current SNX have some of that spec, not the whole thing, right?

16:03SPEAKERThey've got HDR, they've got Adaptive Sync.

16:06SPEAKERYeah.

16:06SPEAKERAnd I think that's it because there are other features of that full spec.

16:10SPEAKERRight.

16:10SPEAKERAnd I've read that manufacturers are picking and choosing which features they support.

16:14SPEAKERIt depends on the scaler they buy right now, in a lot of cases, is my understanding.

16:17SPEAKERAnd the driver for the monitor.

16:19SPEAKERSo as far as what's relevant to game consoles, my understanding is it's HDR.

16:25SPEAKERYeah.

16:25SPEAKERIt is high refresh slash adaptive refresh.

16:30SPEAKERBecause now we're getting up into 4K 120 hertz.

16:34SPEAKERI mean, and we're talking about adaptive and high frame rate are related, but they are

16:38SPEAKERtwo separate things.

16:39SPEAKERRight.

16:39SPEAKERSo high frame rate is just saying, hey, we support greater than 60 hertz.

16:43SPEAKERAnd then the adaptive is we can sync with the...

16:46SPEAKERBut so with these new consoles, I mean, who knows if they always say, hey, it'll do...

16:50SPEAKERYou remember the PlayStation 3 coming out and say, hey, it's a 1080p console.

16:54SPEAKERLike, come on.

16:55SPEAKERNot so much.

16:56SPEAKERTwo games on that console run at 1080p or whatever.

16:58SPEAKERBut theoretically, these new consoles will have enough beef to them that they might have

17:04SPEAKERa game.

17:04SPEAKERThere might be some minimal indie game that could run at 4K 120 hertz, but you need a

17:09SPEAKERport that could actually output that.

17:10SPEAKERAnd that's what the 2.1.

17:12SPEAKERYeah.

17:12SPEAKERAs long as you have the port to output it.

17:14SPEAKERI mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect 2D...

17:17SPEAKERIt's weird to say this, but the things that are going to run at 4K are like 2D platformers

17:23SPEAKERand I don't know, like video, like her story, you could run at 4K, no problem.

17:29SPEAKERSure.

17:30SPEAKERBut I mean, I can tell you from using this iPad that having a very high resolution, very

17:33SPEAKERhigh refresh screen looks good as hell.

17:36SPEAKERLike, it sounds like just a bunch of numbers on paper, but like in person, it's pretty

17:41SPEAKERworthwhile.

17:42SPEAKERWell, it's something...

17:43SPEAKERIt's funny.

17:43SPEAKERIt's one of those things that I didn't really appreciate until I started doing VR work.

17:47SPEAKERAnd there, the difference between high refresh rate, high frame rate, and low refresh rate,

17:52SPEAKERlow frame rate is a physical discomfort to needing a bucket.

17:55SPEAKERA matter of losing your lunch.

17:56SPEAKERYeah, exactly.

17:59SPEAKERSo yeah, when you look at the frame rate situation, there's physiological changes.

18:07SPEAKERLike when I was working at Maximum PC 20 years ago, we regularly had people write and say,

18:11SPEAKER"Hey, movies run at 24 frames a second.

18:14SPEAKERCan the human eye see more than that?

18:15SPEAKERWhy do I need to spend money on a monitor that has a 90 Hertz refresh rate when we're

18:19SPEAKERtalking about CRTs?"

18:20SPEAKERAnd it's really apparent, especially when you watch video at 60 Hertz.

18:27SPEAKERAnd I'm not talking about bad motion-smooth TV where they're doing horrible things.

18:32SPEAKERWe'll talk about that in a little bit.

18:33SPEAKERSomething actually captured at 60.

18:34SPEAKERYeah.

18:35SPEAKERYeah.

18:35SPEAKERSomething that's actually captured...

18:36SPEAKERIf you have an iPhone and you're capturing video at 60 frames a second on your iPhone,

18:42SPEAKERyou watch it at 60 frames a second, it looks crisper and more real.

18:45SPEAKERThere's less blurring.

18:46SPEAKERAnd it's a good experience for the right type of content.

18:50SPEAKERStart to get that window effect, I think they call it.

18:53SPEAKERWhat's the window effect?

18:53SPEAKERIt's just like the idea that your TV is a window on something.

18:56SPEAKERYeah.

18:57SPEAKERReal that is happening and not something artificial that was recorded.

18:59SPEAKERThat's exactly...

19:00SPEAKERStarts to fool your brain into...

19:02SPEAKERYeah, it looks more...

19:03SPEAKERBut ironically, we're so used to artificial low frame rates that when you first see that

19:07SPEAKERstuff, it looks fake because your brain doesn't think it should be that smooth.

19:11SPEAKERDid you go...

19:11SPEAKEROkay, so there's a couple of frame rates that are really important here.

19:14SPEAKERThere's 24 Hertz, which is what we shoot film at.

19:16SPEAKERRight.

19:16SPEAKERThere's 30 frames a second, which is what most TVs...

19:19SPEAKERAlso, not to go off on a tangent.

19:21SPEAKERI don't know exactly how this works, but I think wasn't the 24 frames per second standard

19:25SPEAKERalso arrived at because of technical limitation.

19:27SPEAKERI think it has something to do with syncing up with the audio on the film reel or something

19:31SPEAKERalong those lines.

19:33SPEAKERI have no idea.

19:34SPEAKERI've never...

19:35SPEAKERI've heard those stories.

19:37SPEAKERAuthoritative podcast here.

19:38SPEAKERWe are...

19:39SPEAKERI think it's a similar thing of...

19:42SPEAKERThat was the number they arrived at because it was what they could do with all the other

19:44SPEAKERstuff they were working on.

19:45SPEAKERI mean, back in the old days, they were actually cranking a thing by hand.

19:48SPEAKERSo maybe that's just the metronome that they had on set on the first day was a 24...

19:53SPEAKERI don't know.

19:53SPEAKERYeah.

19:53SPEAKERWell, we'll talk about that next week.

19:56SPEAKERThe history of tech is a history of good enough, I find.

19:59SPEAKERYeah.

20:00SPEAKERIn a lot of cases, it's just like, what would work at all?

20:02SPEAKERWell, or simple...

20:05SPEAKERA lot of times, you're presented with a problem and you're like, "Oh, okay.

20:09SPEAKERHere's the...

20:10SPEAKERThe right way to solve this problem is to go jump through all these hoops and do a bunch

20:13SPEAKERof problem."

20:14SPEAKERAnd then somebody will be like, "You know, we could actually just...

20:16SPEAKERIf we just shave off this corner, three microns, it's just gonna fit in.

20:20SPEAKERIt'll be fine."

20:21SPEAKERAnd then... What could go wrong 80 years from now?

20:24SPEAKERYeah, it's gonna be okay.

20:25SPEAKERNobody's gonna be using this stuff 80 years from now.

20:28SPEAKEROkay.

20:29SPEAKERSo 24 hertz, 30 hertz, 60 hertz, and now increasing 120 hertz and beyond.

20:36SPEAKERWhat do you know about 59.94?

20:39SPEAKERSo I...

20:40SPEAKERShould I even bring that up?

20:42SPEAKERSo there's 29.97 and 59.94.

20:45SPEAKERYeah.

20:45SPEAKERThose have to do with TV production.

20:48SPEAKERI don't know why those are the real resolutions.

20:51SPEAKER'Cause you see those on video capture devices, or if you know people who do professional

20:55SPEAKERvideo production, they are well acquainted with those frame rates and I don't know what

20:59SPEAKERthe deal is.

21:00SPEAKERMost of your cameras, it probably just leaves one frame every second for like...

21:05SPEAKEROh, some kind of metadata, maybe?

21:07SPEAKERSome vertical blanking or something?

21:09SPEAKERYeah, sure.

21:09SPEAKERI don't know.

21:11SPEAKERRight in.

21:11SPEAKERI'll believe that.

21:12SPEAKERRight in.

21:13SPEAKERAdd us on Twitter, 'cause we didn't set up an email address before we started the podcast.

21:16SPEAKERTell us, the experts, about how that works.

21:19SPEAKERWe're curious.

21:20SPEAKERYeah.

21:20SPEAKERVinny, when you're listening to this...

21:24SPEAKERSo, okay.

21:25SPEAKERSo we have those refresh rates.

21:28SPEAKERWhy do you think we ended up with 120 hertz for things like the ProMotion display?

21:32SPEAKERI would assume 'cause it's double 60, but...

21:34SPEAKERWell, it's probably...

21:35SPEAKERThis sounds like a trick question.

21:36SPEAKERIt's the least common denominator for 24 and 60.

21:39SPEAKEROh, wow.

21:39SPEAKERSure.

21:40SPEAKEROkay.

21:40SPEAKERSo you remember the old 3-2 pull-down thing, right?

21:43SPEAKERYes.

21:44SPEAKERThat you get rid of the judder.

21:45SPEAKERThat's...

21:45SPEAKERWell, kind of, but sometimes it adds judder.

21:47SPEAKERIt's not a perfect solution for turning 24 frame per second content into 60 frame per

21:53SPEAKERsecond content, 'cause it means that they...

21:55SPEAKERI think they use three...

21:57SPEAKERThey double three frames and then they...

21:59SPEAKERAnd then they...

22:00SPEAKEREvery third frame, they double two and not the third.

22:03SPEAKERIs that how it works?

22:04SPEAKEROkay.

22:04SPEAKERSomething like that.

22:05SPEAKERIt doesn't matter.

22:06SPEAKERYeah.

22:06SPEAKERThe upshot is we don't have to do that anymore with 120 hertz displays because you multiply 24 by...

22:11SPEAKER60 is not cleanly divisible by 24.

22:13SPEAKERExactly.

22:14SPEAKERThat's the problem.

22:15SPEAKERBut 120 is.

22:16SPEAKERExactly.

22:17SPEAKERSo, okay.

22:19SPEAKERSo we have 120 hertz displays are gonna become common.

22:22SPEAKERI think our TVs, probably next year models, and if not 2020 models, 2021 models.

22:27SPEAKERYeah.

22:27SPEAKERSo I don't know when you wanna talk and I don't wanna derail this.

22:31SPEAKERClearly, I have a very well thought out plan, Brad.

22:34SPEAKERWe're not just sitting in your living room on Saturday morning when I have the first

22:37SPEAKERhangover of the last six years recording a podcast.

22:41SPEAKERPerfect time to start throwing numbers and standards around.

22:44SPEAKERWell, it seems like a ton is changing with TVs right now.

22:47SPEAKERAnd again, for the next couple of years as these standards catch up.

22:50SPEAKERBut this year's models, and I think some of last year's models of OLED TVs are finally

22:55SPEAKERhitting 120 hertz panels, but not ports capable of carrying that signal.

23:01SPEAKERSo the TVs are getting out there, they can do 4K 120, but you couldn't plug an Xbox or

23:06SPEAKERwhatever into them and do that.

23:08SPEAKERSo you can only do it through the built-in streaming apps.

23:11SPEAKERAnd they're just using the 120 hertz aside from the built-in streaming apps to not have

23:16SPEAKERto do three to pull down when you're watching a movie, right?

23:19SPEAKERBut to me, having a screen that can do that and not being able to plug any physical devices

23:23SPEAKERinto it and actually send that signal is borderline useless.

23:26SPEAKERSo that's one of many reasons that everybody I know has been saying, "Dude, just shut up

23:30SPEAKERand pony up for an OLED."

23:32SPEAKERAnd I'm like, "No, you don't understand.

23:34SPEAKERTVs are gonna be so much better next year and the year after."

23:36SPEAKERSo you and I both have the same TV in different sizes.

23:40SPEAKERYeah.

23:41SPEAKERThe one that we bought in 2010, probably.

23:42SPEAKERI think mine's from 2012, but yeah, we both got rocking the old Panasonic Plasmas.

23:47SPEAKERLast gen Panasonic.

23:49SPEAKERI have the second to last Panasonic Plasma.

23:51SPEAKERMine was somewhere around two.

23:53SPEAKERYeah.

23:54SPEAKERSo you're absolutely right.

23:57SPEAKERThe panels are really capable.

23:59SPEAKERAnd part of that is because manufacturing, everybody just builds the panels that go into

24:04SPEAKERphones because they're a massive, massive business.

24:07SPEAKERThere's billions of those things sold all the time.

24:11SPEAKERAnd the difference between a phone panel and a TV panel is just how big you cut the sheet

24:18SPEAKERin a lot of cases.

24:19SPEAKERBut refresh rates.

24:20SPEAKERYes.

24:21SPEAKERSo yeah, TVs are coming.

24:23SPEAKERThe Visa standard, the adaptive refresh Visa standard gives both a way to convert, send

24:30SPEAKERhigh frame rate, high refresh rate, and to only render the frames that are necessary.

24:35SPEAKERSo the thing that was weird in the days before adaptive frame rate was your CRT monitor is

24:42SPEAKERdrawing 60 frames a second because the phosphorus fade and it has to keep going.

24:46SPEAKERWith LCDs and OLEDs, we don't need to do that anymore.

24:49SPEAKERBut we kept doing it anyway because we were a default VGA, a default CRT world.

24:56SPEAKERAnd now we're finally starting to move beyond that.

24:58SPEAKERSo now it only renders new frames.

24:59SPEAKERIt only sends the new frames when there's something changed on the screen and everything's

25:07SPEAKERbetter.

25:09SPEAKERThere's no downside to that.

25:10SPEAKERAlmost everything is better.

25:11SPEAKERThere's one thing that is probably the most esoteric topic I'm aware of in this vein that

25:17SPEAKERI've just recently been reading up on.

25:19SPEAKERSo I don't have a super clear picture on it, but are you familiar with the idea of high

25:24SPEAKERpersistence versus low persistence displays?

25:27SPEAKEROh.

25:27SPEAKERHave you ever seen how our plasmas, have you ever seen how they're referred to as 600 Hertz

25:32SPEAKERscreens?

25:32SPEAKERYeah.

25:33SPEAKERFrom my understanding, and again, I've only just started reading about this stuff.

25:37SPEAKERThese screens, independent of the frame rate that is being sent or the frames data that

25:40SPEAKERis being sent to them, they refresh their image.

25:44SPEAKERAnd I think on plasmas, they use phosphorus, right?

25:47SPEAKERYeah, right.

25:47SPEAKERIt's like a glowy gas.

25:49SPEAKERThey refresh that image 600 times a second, even though you're only getting...

25:53SPEAKERWell, so yeah, that makes sense.

25:54SPEAKERAnd the net effect of that, and this is something that I noticed on this plasma for years and

25:58SPEAKERloved, but couldn't put a name to until I just recently started digging into it, which

26:03SPEAKERis that especially playing high frame rate games on these plasmas, if you pan the camera

26:06SPEAKERaround, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

26:09SPEAKERAnything with a lot of fast motion stays remarkably sharp and clear on these screens.

26:13SPEAKERAnd my understanding is it's because they are refreshing that, even though it's only

26:19SPEAKER60 frames a second, each one of those frames is getting re-projected on the screen or whatever

26:23SPEAKERthe term is, 10 times per frame.

26:26SPEAKERThat's amazing.

26:26SPEAKERSo that's why they stay so clear.

26:28SPEAKERBut OLEDs and LCDs are not that.

26:31SPEAKERThey draw much fewer times per second.

26:33SPEAKERSo that's why you get a lot of motion blur on those.

26:36SPEAKERThat's why you can, yeah.

26:37SPEAKERI mean, that's part of the reason that the G-Sync stuff and the FreeSync stuff are a

26:42SPEAKERbig deal.

26:42SPEAKERAnd I've seen there were at CES this year, I know I'm just rambling about a bunch of

26:46SPEAKERstuff, but now I saw there are some monitors announced at CES this year that also combine

26:50SPEAKERsome backlight strobing techniques to try to further reduce the motion blur.

26:54SPEAKERWell, so I was going to say that's one of the other things that they can do is they

26:56SPEAKERcan strobe backlight.

26:57SPEAKEROne of the things that when you're building a G-Sync or presumably a FreeSync panel too

27:01SPEAKERis you have to look at the characteristics of the panel and then they figure out ways

27:05SPEAKERto minimize ghosting and unintended blur.

27:10SPEAKERThe other thing is that in video game world, all games have motion blur now, which blows.

27:16SPEAKERBut they do that to kind of smooth over that stuff on the panels, I think.

27:20SPEAKERRight.

27:21SPEAKERSo it's a reaction to if it's going to be there, we might as well control it, I guess,

27:26SPEAKERrather than just let your shitty monitor render their game the way that it's going to render

27:30SPEAKERit.

27:30SPEAKERYeah.

27:31SPEAKERLike the net effect of all this stuff is that I have obsessively painted myself into this

27:35SPEAKERcorner where there are things I love about this plasma that don't exist anymore.

27:39SPEAKERThere are features that are coming that aren't out yet.

27:41SPEAKERI just can never buy anything now.

27:43SPEAKERSo you need to get a G-Sync, you need to get an adaptive sync monitor.

27:47SPEAKERA something sync, not necessarily.

27:50SPEAKERWell, now we're at this point where NVIDIA is like grudgingly supporting some FreeSync,

27:55SPEAKERbut they're very, they're a little dismissive about it.

27:58SPEAKERThey're like, well, here's a dozen FreeSync monitors that might work.

28:01SPEAKERLike we haven't tested them, but here you go.

28:04SPEAKERSo part of the difference between G-Sync and FreeSync is that you have, they control the

28:08SPEAKERscaler and that scaler is then tuned to the panel in the display.

28:12SPEAKERSo they don't have to do that stuff on their side.

28:15SPEAKERThey don't have to be like, oh, this is an Acer 2965, whatever.

28:20SPEAKERThis is the, these are the characteristics.

28:22SPEAKERThis is my understanding.

28:23SPEAKERThe scaler and the monitor just takes the data and runs.

28:25SPEAKERYeah, because the scaler knows what the monitor can do.

28:28SPEAKERSo G-Sync doesn't have to know what the monitor can do.

28:30SPEAKERSo what they're doing is they're going through qualifying panels that they want to, presumably

28:34SPEAKERfrom trusted partners.

28:35SPEAKERI don't know.

28:37SPEAKERIt's been interesting because like some companies just don't make G-Sync monitors.

28:39SPEAKERLike LG hasn't made G-Sync monitors and they make all those dope, super wide screen

28:44SPEAKERcurved dealies that are very pretty.

28:47SPEAKERSo it's exciting because people who want like a big, wide ass monitor can now get adaptive

28:53SPEAKERsync on an Nvidia card.

28:56SPEAKERI think now's a fine time to buy a monitor, a PC monitor.

29:00SPEAKEROkay.

29:01SPEAKERThere's all sorts of weird sizes.

29:04SPEAKERYou can get like a 65 inch G-Sync monitor now that looks essentially like a TV.

29:11SPEAKERThey're kind of expensive, it turns out.

29:13SPEAKERBut, but like there's...

29:13SPEAKERWhat distance are people sitting away from their monitors at that point?

29:16SPEAKERI see people talking about getting like 32 inch or more or bigger monitors and trying

29:21SPEAKERto envision what kind of desk setup they have.

29:23SPEAKERSo I had for years, one of those 30 inch Dell panels.

29:27SPEAKEROkay.

29:28SPEAKERAnd how close did you sit?

29:31SPEAKERAnd did you have to...

29:32SPEAKERFour feet probably.

29:33SPEAKERDid you, I mean, as soon as I have to physically pivot my head back and forth, see the whole

29:37SPEAKERscreen.

29:37SPEAKERMy eyes move inside my head.

29:39SPEAKERI guess.

29:40SPEAKERYou know, this is, look, this is, my vision's bad.

29:44SPEAKERSo I sit a little closer, right?

29:47SPEAKERI don't know.

29:48SPEAKERRight now I'm using a 27 or 28 inch 4K 60 panel.

29:52SPEAKERThat's awesome.

29:53SPEAKERAnd it's probably three and a half feet back from my chair.

29:56SPEAKEROkay.

29:58SPEAKERI think the sweet spot right now, especially if you wanted adaptive sync, are those 1440p

30:03SPEAKERIPS.

30:05SPEAKERSo they're 2560 by 1440.

30:08SPEAKERWhat is that?

30:09SPEAKERQHD.

30:09SPEAKERI think that's what they call it.

30:10SPEAKERQVGA.

30:11SPEAKERYeah.

30:12SPEAKERWQHD or something.

30:13SPEAKERYeah.

30:16SPEAKERIt's, you can get good refresh rates.

30:18SPEAKERSo you can get up to like 165 Hertz.

30:20SPEAKERIf you, I'm air quoting here, overclock the monitor.

30:23SPEAKERIt's a terrible phrase.

30:24SPEAKERI see people talking about that.

30:26SPEAKERYeah.

30:26SPEAKERBut it's nice.

30:27SPEAKERI mean, if you're playing a game and you want the high frame rate and your computer can

30:30SPEAKERdrive, you know, this is all obviously contingent on the machine that you

30:33SPEAKERhook up to the monitor being about actually push the frames out.

30:35SPEAKERI just, I gave up all forms of overclocking years ago.

30:38SPEAKERIt just never is worth the hassle to me at this point.

30:40SPEAKERIt's the only thing I overclock is memory.

30:43SPEAKEROkay.

30:44SPEAKERBecause the memory bandwidth, it turns out is pretty, is a big bottleneck.

30:47SPEAKERSure.

30:47SPEAKERAnyway, it doesn't matter.

30:50SPEAKERIt's another topic to fly away for later.

30:52SPEAKERYeah.

30:52SPEAKERThat's actually a good one.

30:53SPEAKERMemory.

30:54SPEAKERGood God, what's happening with memory and just overclocking.

30:59SPEAKERWhen you have like, there's nothing, there's nothing huge coming unless you're in the market

31:05SPEAKERfor a 4k greater than 60 Hertz G-Sync or FreeSync or Visa adaptive sync IPS panel.

31:14SPEAKERYou can get 4k greater than 60 in TN panels, but I can't, that's a bridge too far for me.

31:20SPEAKERI don't, I, I feel like nobody I know or nobody I even read online.

31:24SPEAKEREarnestly recommends a TN panel.

31:26SPEAKERIt seems like at best, a lot of people put up with them.

31:28SPEAKERIf you need a, if you, if my dad was like, Hey, I want to monitor.

31:32SPEAKERI would say, dad, how much do you want to spend?

31:34SPEAKERAnd he'd tell me $150.

31:36SPEAKERAnd I'd be like, here's your, here's your, here's your boy.

31:38SPEAKERSure.

31:40SPEAKERBut they, they do seem and sort of universally recognized as like the.

31:44SPEAKERIf you do anything that requires accurate colors, they're bad.

31:47SPEAKERThat's the, that's the problem.

31:48SPEAKERAnd like the off-axis viewing stock, like there's, there's a whole host of problems with them.

31:54SPEAKERIs IPS still the thing?

31:55SPEAKERCause there's also a VA and like variations on VA and like, I'm not,

31:59SPEAKERthere might be even, well, I guess that's it.

32:01SPEAKERThose are kind of the three right now, right?

32:03SPEAKERI mean, the, the, right now the business is OLED, right?

32:05SPEAKERIf you want to get the, if you want to get the, the big boy.

32:08SPEAKERWell, that's not really, but you can't really get those in monitors.

32:10SPEAKERYeah.

32:11SPEAKERSo, um, I, IPS is what I get because I do video and, and photo stuff and I want good

32:17SPEAKERcolor reproduction.

32:20SPEAKERIf you're playing games, 1440p, G-Sync or FreeSync, depending on your flavor of video card

32:26SPEAKERand, um, 144 Hertz is great.

32:28SPEAKEREven 120 Hertz is great.

32:30SPEAKERUm, if you're, if you're not playing games, maybe don't bother.

32:35SPEAKERCause windows especially is kind of janky with high frame rate and HDR and all that.

32:39SPEAKERReally?

32:40SPEAKERIt has problems.

32:41SPEAKERWhen windows, it just, I don't think it uses it for a whole lot.

32:47SPEAKERLike I don't think it'll render.

32:48SPEAKERI mean, I guess it'll render the monitor refresh rate, but, um, I have heard that windows is

32:53SPEAKERstill pretty bad on scaling up to 4k.

32:55SPEAKERWindows still challenging.

32:57SPEAKERI would describe it as, as long as you're running 4k, like as long as everything runs

33:03SPEAKERat the same scale, like games, windows, your video display, everything, it's no problem.

33:09SPEAKERThey, they, their solution is not as good as Apple's is for, for scaling stuff up.

33:14SPEAKEROkay. Cause Apple is super smart about like, if you run a 4k when a 4k video on a, on a

33:19SPEAKERretina display, it displays the native pixels instead of trying to quad double them.

33:23SPEAKERAnd windows is bad at that stuff, depending on the application you use.

33:26SPEAKERDoesn't, uh, doesn't Apple use like a lot of vector type stuff in their UI elements as

33:31SPEAKERwell?

33:31SPEAKERYeah, exactly.

33:31SPEAKERWhat's it scale?

33:33SPEAKERWindows has that too.

33:34SPEAKERAnd also like Apple, um, you have to provide, if you provide raster images, you have to

33:40SPEAKERprovide them in like a bazillion different DPI is so that you get the right number of

33:44SPEAKERpixels in the right, right density.

33:47SPEAKERUm, TVs on the other hand, way more complicated.

33:51SPEAKERYes.

33:52SPEAKERAnd, and still, um, maturing, let's say still not quite where that seems like they're going

33:58SPEAKERto end up in another couple of years.

33:59SPEAKERI think that's, I think that's fair.

34:00SPEAKERYeah.

34:00SPEAKERI think, I think we'll, I think, I mean, the big thing is the connector, the getting the,

34:05SPEAKERthe full HDMI 2.1, 2.1, 2.1 a, I think.

34:09SPEAKERThat might, that might be right.

34:10SPEAKERSo there was one other feature I was going to mention there.

34:13SPEAKERSo actually there's more than like, I think there's like five or six new features total

34:18SPEAKERwith that spec, but there's like three that are in a matter of game consoles, if that's

34:21SPEAKERwhat people care about.

34:22SPEAKEROkay.

34:22SPEAKERIt is the 4k 120 Hertz.

34:25SPEAKERUm, it is the adaptive sync.

34:29SPEAKERYes.

34:30SPEAKERAnd there's one other one that I forget the like consortium name for, but it's something

34:34SPEAKERalong the lines of like automatic low latency mode.

34:37SPEAKERThat's what it is.

34:39SPEAKERYou don't have to say this input is your game console.

34:41SPEAKERAnd that's actually like, I don't see anybody talking about it.

34:44SPEAKERAnd it's largely probably because I don't think the products are really out there yet,

34:47SPEAKERbut like, it seems like a godsend because what it is is, yeah, it's exactly what you

34:52SPEAKERsaid.

34:53SPEAKERLike no more mucking around in the TV menu to see like, okay, is this the game mode?

34:57SPEAKERDo I need to turn off the denoising filter?

35:00SPEAKERLike how do I get my latency down as low as possible to play video games on this?

35:04SPEAKERAnd to be fair, it's a big ask because it's going to require every device in your entire

35:08SPEAKERchain to support that.

35:10SPEAKERSo that means you're going to have to replace your receiver and game console receiver.

35:13SPEAKERIf you're going through one, two TV or anything else that is in that chain, but once you have

35:17SPEAKERall that in place, the source device can just tell the whole chain, like drop automatically

35:22SPEAKERdrop to whatever the lowest latency thing is no user intervention required.

35:27SPEAKERJust like this is how to play games.

35:28SPEAKERThat's fabulous at the lowest possible latency that this whole chain of devices supports.

35:32SPEAKEROh, that's super good.

35:33SPEAKERIt sounds great because that stuff is terrible.

35:35SPEAKERLike I took my switch and dock to E3 this year.

35:40SPEAKEROh, you tried to play on a hotel TV.

35:42SPEAKERI hooked it up and like the ports were exposed.

35:44SPEAKERI was excited.

35:44SPEAKERI was like, okay, it was worth it.

35:45SPEAKERCalling all this crap with me.

35:46SPEAKERI'm going to hook this up and play a switch in the hotel room.

35:49SPEAKERWorst input lag I've ever experienced on a screen in my life.

35:52SPEAKERAnd there were no settings.

35:53SPEAKERI dug around everywhere.

35:54SPEAKERThere were no settings for turning on and off filters and post-processing and all that

35:58SPEAKERstuff.

35:58SPEAKERIt was like literally like half a second after I would press the button.

36:02SPEAKERMario would jump.

36:04SPEAKERAnd I was just like, okay, I could, I was technically able to hook this up and play

36:07SPEAKERit, but it's so worthless that I'm not going to bother.

36:09SPEAKERSo I, I carry, my laptop has a Geforce 1060 in it.

36:13SPEAKERSo it's like, it's a decent laptop for games and I'm in hotels a lot and I plug it in

36:19SPEAKERand it's like 30% success rate.

36:21SPEAKEREither you can't get to the HDMI ports from the remote and I have to like, I have to like

36:26SPEAKERfigure out how to get the service menu and all that stuff open, which is just, it's not

36:30SPEAKERworth getting into or the input lag is just atrocious.

36:33SPEAKERCause a lot of those it's, it seems like, like the electronics for the TV may be in

36:38SPEAKERorbit someplace or something really, really bad.

36:41SPEAKERSure.

36:44SPEAKERThat's a really, that's a really cool feature.

36:46SPEAKERI hadn't heard anything about that.

36:47SPEAKERI didn't, I didn't know about it either until I, I basically did a gut check recently

36:50SPEAKERwhere I was like, okay, am I insane for not wanting to upgrade my TV yet?

36:53SPEAKERBecause everybody I know has a much better TV than me.

36:56SPEAKERAnd I basically was like, all right, I'm going to read about everything.

36:58SPEAKERThese new consoles are probably going to have and whether I really think that's worth

37:01SPEAKERwaiting for.

37:01SPEAKERAnd once I saw that full list, I was like, okay, we're 18 months or less out from those.

37:06SPEAKERI mean, I think these will hit next year, at least at the high end.

37:09SPEAKERIt seems to be.

37:10SPEAKERYeah.

37:12SPEAKERI was going to say like, I think if you bought an OLED two years ago, when they first

37:16SPEAKERstarted getting to non-stratospheric prices, when you could get like a decent TV for

37:20SPEAKER2,500 bucks or two grand, which is a lot of money for a TV, but not, you know, TV, TV

37:25SPEAKERpricing gets real weird when you get to the high end.

37:28SPEAKERYeah.

37:28SPEAKERI think, I think that was okay.

37:30SPEAKERBut I think now when you're literally six months from new hardware announced.

37:34SPEAKERYeah.

37:35SPEAKERI would now, I think now we're holding, now we're in the window where it's like, probably

37:38SPEAKERhold up, but yeah, like I should probably reiterate, like anybody that bought a new

37:42SPEAKER4k TV in the last couple of years is like totally fine.

37:45SPEAKERRight?

37:45SPEAKERYeah.

37:46SPEAKERI mean, like 4k 60 on those machines is still going to be pretty good.

37:49SPEAKERLike it's not.

37:51SPEAKERI think like 4k 60 is already an improvement over 1080 P 60.

37:56SPEAKERAnd yeah, if we've adaptive, I think the adaptive frame rate stuff, like honestly, if

38:01SPEAKERyou're coming right down to it, the thing that matters most on these 4k TVs is having

38:05SPEAKERHDR support.

38:06SPEAKERLike that's the thing that you look at and you're like, Holy shit, that's incredible.

38:09SPEAKERThat's the thing that pops off the screen.

38:10SPEAKERYeah.

38:11SPEAKERAnd it's, and it looks like the first time I saw it, I was like, Jesus, I went to Gary's

38:16SPEAKERhouse, I think.

38:16SPEAKERAnd I was like, Jesus, Gary, do you have it still in the showroom mode?

38:20SPEAKERYou know, where, where they have it set up to be completely blown out and as bright as

38:23SPEAKERpossible so that it stands out next to all the other TVs.

38:26SPEAKERAnd he's like, no, no, it's, it's right.

38:27SPEAKERAnd he showed me, I was like, Oh man, this is amazing.

38:31SPEAKERIt's always breathtaking, especially on the OLEDs where the blacks are so good, but even

38:35SPEAKERon the, even on a good LCD with adaptive backlight.

38:38SPEAKERMillion to one contrast ratio.

38:40SPEAKEROh, it's like a Dolby cinema in your house.

38:44SPEAKERSo I think, I think we hit the high point.

38:46SPEAKEROh, we got to talk about motion smoothing.

38:48SPEAKEROh God.

38:49SPEAKERLook, do we have any Hollywood directors on the line who can back us up on this?

38:53SPEAKERI know there's an effort.

38:54SPEAKERThey're right foot there.

38:56SPEAKERNo, they are absolutely terrible.

38:58SPEAKERIt's bad.

38:58SPEAKERSo motion smoothing is the thing where it takes a 30, 30 frame a second signal and essentially

39:03SPEAKERframe doubles it and does, I assume a little bit of math in between and like splits the

39:08SPEAKERdifference between each frame, the preceding frame and the next frame so that it can take

39:13SPEAKER30 frames a second and make it 60 frames a second with a little tiny bit more kind of

39:17SPEAKERfake information.

39:18SPEAKERRight.

39:19SPEAKERAnd it kind of works, but it looks just unnatural enough that it's just disorienting.

39:25SPEAKERSo it makes everything look like TV sports kind of, or like soap operas?

39:29SPEAKERYeah.

39:31SPEAKERWhen it first started coming out, we called it the soap opera effect on testing.

39:34SPEAKERAnd I don't know if that was, I don't know if that was, I guess everybody called it that,

39:38SPEAKERbut it makes everything look like it's shot on bad cameras at a really weird frame rate.

39:43SPEAKERAnd the other thing I've noticed, I guess there's, I'm sure this varies between TVs

39:46SPEAKERthat have different processing algorithms and stuff, but some TVs are, seem very inconsistent

39:51SPEAKERat it.

39:51SPEAKERLike they're better at smoothing, let's say fine motion than, than broad, like gross motion

39:56SPEAKERor vice versa.

39:56SPEAKERLike it'll be very smooth and then somebody moves a certain way and then you can see that

40:00SPEAKERit can't keep up and it works again.

40:02SPEAKERLike it's just a, it's just not a, it's not a worthwhile technology.

40:05SPEAKERLike if you're watching tennis, it looks great because the only thing that's moving are like

40:09SPEAKERthe two little people in the ball.

40:11SPEAKERRight.

40:11SPEAKERAnd if you're watching, I don't know, hockey, maybe less good.

40:14SPEAKERNo, because the camera's moving in the - yeah, anyway.

40:18SPEAKERTurn off motion smoothing.

40:19SPEAKERYes.

40:19SPEAKERThat's the TLDR.

40:20SPEAKERAnd the reason this looks better, the reason adaptive frame rate, high frame rate stuff

40:23SPEAKERlooks better is because you're actually getting data.

40:25SPEAKERYeah.

40:25SPEAKERIt's not having to make it up as it goes.

40:26SPEAKERSo you're seeing something that is a closer analog to what our eyes detect.

40:31SPEAKERAnd it seems like from reading about how your brain interacts with vision, that any idea

40:40SPEAKERof - we are unsure of what the upper limit on human's ability to detect frame rate is.

40:48SPEAKERBecause it's not something that really exists in the real world.

40:52SPEAKERIt seems like there's probably a spectrum across which all humanity can be mapped.

40:57SPEAKERSome people are - this became really apparent when we were doing the early VR demos.

41:02SPEAKERSome people are super sensitive to frame rate.

41:04SPEAKERSome people have absolutely no sensitivity at all to frame rate.

41:08SPEAKERLike one of my developers gets motion sick the moment he has two frame sags, he can feel it.

41:15SPEAKERI can play a Gear VR in the back of a moving car and I'm fine.

41:18SPEAKERYou have an iron stomach.

41:19SPEAKERYeah.

41:23SPEAKERIt's been interesting to see.

41:24SPEAKERAnd in that case, some of the frame doubling stuff does work.

41:27SPEAKERLike Sony does frame doubling on some of the PSVR games,

41:30SPEAKERand that seems to work for most people in my experience.

41:33SPEAKERSo yeah, when people tell you that nothing more than 24 hertz or 30 hertz or 60 hertz

41:39SPEAKERor whatever don't matter, it's really untrue.

41:42SPEAKERAnd that scales all the way up to the new Valve headset.

41:46SPEAKER640K is enough for anybody.

41:48SPEAKERThat's the quote, right?

41:49SPEAKERYeah, 640 kilobytes of RAM.

41:52SPEAKERI don't know how much longer you want to go,

41:54SPEAKERbut I've got a couple of questions that I would throw out.

41:56SPEAKEROkay, so buy a monitor now.

41:58SPEAKERYeah.

41:59SPEAKERMaybe don't buy a TV just yet.

42:00SPEAKERI'd see what happens in January at CES for the new TVs.

42:04SPEAKERI'm kind of thinking about like...

42:07SPEAKERLike if your TV is not working, go buy a TV.

42:08SPEAKERYeah, totally.

42:09SPEAKERYeah, replace the TV.

42:10SPEAKERMaybe buy a cheapo.

42:11SPEAKERI really would like to buy new monitors.

42:13SPEAKERLike just these things, lack of inputs, lack of video modes.

42:15SPEAKERLike it is very constricting.

42:17SPEAKERI streamed a PS4 game a few days ago and I had to play the game in the OBS capture window.

42:22SPEAKERThat's how bad those...

42:23SPEAKERThat's how limited the monitors are.

42:25SPEAKERAnyway, Brad, it's time.

42:27SPEAKERLooking at screens in the mobile space.

42:31SPEAKERWhy do you think we aren't seeing higher pixel density displays on PC monitors right now?

42:36SPEAKERBecause Windows is bad at scaling.

42:38SPEAKERIs that really just what it is?

42:38SPEAKERI think that's it.

42:39SPEAKERYeah.

42:42SPEAKERYou'll notice it's one of the things that like...

42:44SPEAKEROne of the problems I have is that games...

42:47SPEAKERApplications that don't use the right graphics model for Windows,

42:51SPEAKERlike the right toolkit APIs for drawing the Windows.

42:55SPEAKERLike Steam, for example, sometimes gets stuck in not pixel doubled mode.

42:59SPEAKEROkay.

43:00SPEAKERI have no idea why.

43:01SPEAKERSometimes you'll have like the window...

43:03SPEAKERLike if you switch from a game, which runs at one to one, back to Windows,

43:07SPEAKERwhich runs basically pixel doubled.

43:10SPEAKERSo each pixel becomes four pixels on the 4K screen or I use it anyway, it doesn't matter.

43:17SPEAKERThen sometimes the windows will get resized badly and they'll get stuck in the...

43:23SPEAKERYou'll have either the image of the window is super small inside a much bigger frame

43:28SPEAKERand the only way you can fix this by closing and opening the application again.

43:33SPEAKERSo I think that's probably it.

43:35SPEAKERAlso, it doesn't matter because usually the distance you're sitting...

43:37SPEAKERWhat if it does matter?

43:39SPEAKERI'll just...

43:40SPEAKERYeah, hit me.

43:40SPEAKERJust to clarify, here's basically what I'm looking for.

43:42SPEAKERI don't have a ton of disk space and I generally like to run with two identical monitors,

43:46SPEAKERjust because it's easier to drag stuff back and forth if it's already the right size.

43:49SPEAKERDo you like having the second monitor just so you have a second organization?

43:53SPEAKERJust so I can look at things back...

43:55SPEAKERI've been mucking around in FreeBSD a lot lately,

43:57SPEAKERso having some kind of a tutorial up on one monitor and a console window and the other,

44:01SPEAKERstuff like that, it's just much easier to look back and forth.

44:05SPEAKERPoint being, I would say 24 inches is probably the upper limit of what I would like to have,

44:11SPEAKERbut you're not seeing...

44:12SPEAKERYou're seeing very few 1440p screens at that size,

44:16SPEAKERlike next to no screens at higher resolutions than that,

44:19SPEAKERbut you look at phones and tablets are higher resolution than that at what?

44:24SPEAKERA third or a fifth of the size.

44:28SPEAKERWe need less of that even so.

44:30SPEAKERSo basically, I guess what you're saying is it sounds like it's market forces that are stopping

44:34SPEAKERthat kind of fidelity from getting into the PC space.

44:37SPEAKER24 inches is the budget market space.

44:39SPEAKERIt's just nobody is asking for what I'm asking for, so it's not...

44:42SPEAKERWhat I mean is there's no manufacturing reason that they couldn't be making that stuff.

44:46SPEAKEROh no, absolutely not.

44:47SPEAKERThey could cut the panels whatever they want.

44:49SPEAKERThat's what I thought.

44:50SPEAKERThese screens obviously exist in mobile, why is this not happening?

44:52SPEAKERSo it's because nobody but me wants it.

44:54SPEAKERSo they make the rolls of panels in...

44:59SPEAKERIf you search YouTube, you can see videos of panels getting cut.

45:01SPEAKERLike literally rolls?

45:03SPEAKERThey roll up?

45:03SPEAKERIt's like a giant...

45:04SPEAKERIt looks like a giant roll of cloth.

45:06SPEAKERAnd then they take that and they stick it on the...

45:09SPEAKERFor an LCD, they stick it on the backboard,

45:10SPEAKERthe board which drives it and provides the LED backlights now too.

45:18SPEAKERSo the thing that determines where the panels go is what the pitch,

45:23SPEAKERthe pixels per inch of the rolls are.

45:26SPEAKERSo the screen ones are much higher.

45:28SPEAKERThey're like 300 and 350 pixels per inch in some cases now.

45:32SPEAKERThe ones that are for TVs and monitors are usually lower pixels per inch.

45:35SPEAKERThe one thing I have noticed that contradicts what I was just saying is that it looks like

45:40SPEAKERactual 4K displays are starting to trickle into the smaller screen category.

45:45SPEAKERYeah, like you're starting to see 22, 24 inch 4K displays?

45:49SPEAKERProbably, my guess is that those are phone screen dot pitches.

45:52SPEAKEROkay, so it's because those are already getting made, so why not make monitors out of them?

45:56SPEAKERYeah, so the problem...

45:57SPEAKERYeah, it's very much a case of, "Hey, this stuff costs this much per square inch

46:03SPEAKERversus this much per square inch, and we can get a better resolution here,

46:06SPEAKERand the resolution will help us sell more monitors."

46:07SPEAKERHow long...

46:08SPEAKERI mean, so 1080P has been the standard in PC monitor displays for God?

46:13SPEAKERIt's the minimum, yeah.

46:14SPEAKERClose to a decade now?

46:15SPEAKERProbably, yeah.

46:16SPEAKERHow long do you think before everything...

46:20SPEAKERWell, MacBook Airs were always lower than 1080P, weren't they?

46:22SPEAKEROkay, I guess so.

46:23SPEAKEREven the 13 inch was like...

46:24SPEAKERLike, you know, HD broadcast is 1080.

46:26SPEAKERYeah.

46:27SPEAKERLike, video game streaming is kind of geared towards 20...

46:31SPEAKERYou know, that's sort of the baseline resolution.

46:33SPEAKERIt's because that's what the TVs show.

46:34SPEAKERHow long do you think before in the PC space everything is 4K in that same way?

46:38SPEAKERLike, by that I mean, like, even most every budget monitor you see is 4K.

46:44SPEAKERLike, games comfortably are all running at 4K on budget GPUs.

46:49SPEAKERLike, are we another five years from that?

46:51SPEAKERI'd say about five or six years, yeah.

46:53SPEAKERIt usually takes about 10 years for the high end to become the baseline.

46:58SPEAKERSo if you think about HDMI...

47:01SPEAKERSorry, 1080P monitors started...

47:04SPEAKERLike, that Dell 2405, the 1080P one, was basically the first kind of mainstream...

47:13SPEAKERIt was a $500 monitor at the time, and now those are...

47:17SPEAKERYou know, they give them away with serial lock.

47:18SPEAKERYeah, you can get...

47:19SPEAKERLike, that just shines a light on how stupid it is that I don't have a new monitor,

47:23SPEAKERbecause you can get 1080P monitors for like $75.

47:25SPEAKERYeah, they're really...

47:26SPEAKERIt costs more to go to the store than it does to get the monitor.

47:30SPEAKERYeah.

47:31SPEAKERBut so the thing, though, the problem is that for a lot of applications, 4K is thin.

47:39SPEAKERLike, the performance is bad.

47:41SPEAKERLike, I have the fastest consumer video card you can buy,

47:45SPEAKERand there's games that I can't play at 4K.

47:47SPEAKERWhat is that, a 2080 Ti?

47:48SPEAKER2080 Ti.

47:49SPEAKEROkay.

47:50SPEAKERAnd there's stuff that doesn't play at 4K.

47:53SPEAKERHuh.

47:53SPEAKERI mean, or it doesn't...

47:55SPEAKERLike, I want a decent 60-ish frames a second.

48:00SPEAKERAnd if it sags to 30, like the console manufacturers are happy to do on

48:05SPEAKERhigh-end single-player games, that's fine.

48:07SPEAKERAnd I get that, but I want faster frame rate on the PC.

48:11SPEAKERSo I'll run it 1440P instead of...

48:13SPEAKERIt seems like 1440P.

48:15SPEAKERThe answer is I think 1440P is the standard for the foreseeable future.

48:18SPEAKERI guess that question is pretty premature, because it wasn't the 1080,

48:22SPEAKERthe first card that was really promoted by NVIDIA as, "Hey, you can run games at 4K now."

48:26SPEAKERYeah, pretty much.

48:26SPEAKERI believe.

48:27SPEAKERYeah.

48:27SPEAKEROkay. So if we're only a generation out from the first 4K,

48:31SPEAKERrealistic 4K card, then I guess it's gonna be another few years before

48:36SPEAKEReverybody's doing 4K everything, right?

48:37SPEAKERWe gotta talk about machine learning soon.

48:41SPEAKERThere's cool stuff around all of the things that you can do.

48:48SPEAKERSo I guess I don't do it in console games, but in PC games, a lot of times now you can

48:54SPEAKERmodify the internal resolution that the game is rendered at, and then get scaled up,

48:58SPEAKERprobably on the game end.

48:59SPEAKEROr down.

49:00SPEAKEROr down, depending.

49:02SPEAKERAnd the benefit of running at higher resolutions, you're essentially super-sampling,

49:05SPEAKERyou're getting some really, really good AA, anti-aliasing.

49:09SPEAKERAt the lower resolution, you can run at your monitor's native resolution,

49:12SPEAKERbut with the internal resolution of whatever your video card can handle.

49:16SPEAKERLike I tried to...

49:18SPEAKERWhen NVIDIA put out that new version of the Quake 2 ray-traced mod,

49:22SPEAKERI tried to run that on a 1080, and had to drop the internal resolution

49:26SPEAKERto something like 800x600 to get a playable frame rate.

49:28SPEAKERThat seems right, yeah.

49:29SPEAKERI mean, I think it runs even on the 2080 Ti at like, you know...

49:36SPEAKERI guess it runs at 1080p.

49:38SPEAKERBut yeah, it doesn't run faster than 1080p, higher than 1080p.

49:41SPEAKERRay-tracing is probably a whole separate episode.

49:43SPEAKERRay-tracing, I definitely want to talk about ray-tracing.

49:48SPEAKERSo yeah.

49:48SPEAKERSo just buy a monitor.

49:50SPEAKERStop being picky and just buy monitors, is what you're saying.

49:52SPEAKERI'm gonna give you something new to obsess over.

49:54SPEAKERYou're gonna like this.

49:54SPEAKEROh boy.

49:55SPEAKERYou need to pick some...

49:56SPEAKERYou need to get a monitor stand.

49:57SPEAKERYou need to get some arms.

49:58SPEAKEROh, I've got that.

49:59SPEAKEROh, you have?

50:00SPEAKEROh, I've got that dang carat, yeah.

50:01SPEAKERDamn.

50:01SPEAKERI've got one of the...

50:03SPEAKERIt's an echo gear?

50:04SPEAKERYeah, yeah.

50:05SPEAKERIt's a dual arm.

50:06SPEAKERTwo arm.

50:07SPEAKEROh, that's okay.

50:08SPEAKERIs that hydraulic?

50:09SPEAKERI don't know.

50:09SPEAKERYeah, mine has springs.

50:12SPEAKEROkay.

50:13SPEAKERThat thing was life-changing.

50:15SPEAKERAre you a side-to-side or top and bottom?

50:16SPEAKERSide-to-side.

50:17SPEAKERBut they move freely enough that you can totally be...

50:20SPEAKERIf you wanna play stock trader for half an hour, you can put them on top of each other.

50:23SPEAKERCan you rotate them?

50:24SPEAKERYeah.

50:24SPEAKEROh, that's so good.

50:25SPEAKERYou could do portrait or window or whatever.

50:28SPEAKERBut I will say the number one thing about putting the monitors on arms,

50:34SPEAKERputting a beverage underneath them.

50:36SPEAKERYeah.

50:36SPEAKERFreeing up desk space under your monitor to put a plate of food or a beverage.

50:41SPEAKERLook, I can scooch my keyboard back and put my hotas on the screen, on the desk.

50:46SPEAKERLike when you reclaim the space under your monitor, you're reclaiming your life.

50:50SPEAKERVery good.

50:50SPEAKERIt's a big deal.

50:52SPEAKERI'm gonna suggest something else.

50:53SPEAKEROkay.

50:54SPEAKERI think you should get a bigger monitor.

50:58SPEAKERI think you should get a much higher resolution monitor.

51:00SPEAKERSo if you get...

51:01SPEAKERLook, you're gonna go from not 1080p on two monitors times two,

51:05SPEAKERto 1080p times four if you get a 4K monitor.

51:07SPEAKERYeah, that's true.

51:08SPEAKERAnd then you can get displaymon or something like that, that lets you segment out the windows.

51:13SPEAKERNow, the only problem is if you're streaming or something like that and you wanna have

51:16SPEAKERchat and all that stuff open on the side, then that becomes a problem.

51:19SPEAKERYou're gonna want a second monitor for that.

51:21SPEAKERSure.

51:21SPEAKERWell, I'm definitely getting two monitors.

51:24SPEAKERIt's too much a part of my workflow at this point.

51:26SPEAKERWhen I'm working at home, it's like email on the side monitor with whatever I'm doing

51:30SPEAKERon the main and stuff like that.

51:31SPEAKERIt's just two monitors is what I'm used to.

51:34SPEAKERYou're a double monitor man.

51:35SPEAKERI'm thinking I'll probably...

51:36SPEAKERI'd probably get like a 1440p, 24 inch is probably kind of the best compromise.

51:41SPEAKERI wanna see this desk in a minute.

51:44SPEAKERI think you can go 27.

51:45SPEAKERI think it's time.

51:46SPEAKERMaybe.

51:47SPEAKERJust live a little, Brad.

51:48SPEAKERAll right.

51:48SPEAKERLike, think of how good that game's gonna look when you're not playing Dota, how good

51:54SPEAKERit's gonna be to have just like your entire field of view filled with those tiny people.

51:59SPEAKERYou know what they say, go big monitor or go home monitor.

52:01SPEAKERThat's what I always say.

52:02SPEAKERThat's the...

52:02SPEAKERYeah.

52:03SPEAKEROkay, last question.

52:04SPEAKERYeah, hit me.

52:05SPEAKERGod, what was it?

52:07SPEAKEROh, so the 120 hertz screen on the iPad.

52:10SPEAKERYeah, like we didn't even talk about it much.

52:12SPEAKERIt's fantastic.

52:14SPEAKERIt is.

52:14SPEAKERIt's gorgeous.

52:15SPEAKERIt is.

52:15SPEAKERIt is really, really like I couldn't go back.

52:18SPEAKERThat's the first place that I had that window effect that you were talking about.

52:21SPEAKERYeah.

52:21SPEAKERLike when you hear about it, you're like, okay, fine, whatever.

52:24SPEAKERI'm sure it looks a little bit better.

52:25SPEAKERBut in person, like the motion is incredibly just buttery smooth.

52:30SPEAKERIt's really good.

52:30SPEAKERSo my question is, why is that not in phones?

52:34SPEAKERWhen is that coming to phones?

52:34SPEAKERIt's gonna come to phones.

52:35SPEAKERWhat are the technical limitations or why has that not happened yet?

52:38SPEAKERI know, was it Razor?

52:41SPEAKERRazor has a...

52:41SPEAKERI think it's Razor.

52:42SPEAKERI think it's Razor that put out that 120 hertz phone.

52:44SPEAKERDon't buy that phone.

52:45SPEAKERNo, I absolutely would not.

52:46SPEAKERYeah, no.

52:47SPEAKERBut I'm not gonna buy a phone made by mouse people, but...

52:51SPEAKERI think we'll see that in...

52:54SPEAKERSo the way Apple works is...

52:56SPEAKERThe way this works usually is that Apple rolls something out,

52:58SPEAKERand then the rest of the industry chases them for a couple of years.

53:00SPEAKERYeah.

53:01SPEAKERAnd they'll...

53:02SPEAKERApple hasn't done it yet, so nobody else has really...

53:04SPEAKERYeah.

53:04SPEAKERYeah.

53:05SPEAKERSo if they wanna keep that as a feature of the iPad, they will.

53:11SPEAKERI don't think there's any reason you couldn't move that onto the phone.

53:13SPEAKEROkay.

53:13SPEAKER'Cause they're using the same chips.

53:15SPEAKERLike the capabilities there on the CPU...

53:16SPEAKERIt's just a smaller screen cut from the same cloth, right?

53:20SPEAKERThere may be...

53:21SPEAKERI'm sure it could be like a battery math problem.

53:24SPEAKERThat's my question.

53:24SPEAKERLike does it...

53:25SPEAKERI assume does it take like maybe more horsepower, which is gonna eat into the battery more?

53:29SPEAKERAnd maybe that's why they don't wanna do it or I don't know.

53:31SPEAKERWell, so the iPhones, the high-end iPhones now are OLEDs, right?

53:35SPEAKERYes, that's right.

53:36SPEAKERAnd these, and to be fair, these...

53:38SPEAKERThat's an IPS.

53:39SPEAKERThey're LCDs still on the iPads.

53:41SPEAKERYeah.

53:41SPEAKERSo it may be that the OLEDs can't do the adaptive refresh rate at this point.

53:45SPEAKERAlthough Apple is big enough that they can tell the OLED manufacturers figure this out.

53:48SPEAKERRight.

53:49SPEAKERAlso, the newest OLED TVs, like I said, are 120 hertz.

53:52SPEAKERThat's true.

53:52SPEAKERYeah.

53:52SPEAKERSo that tech exists.

53:56SPEAKERMy initial guess is why they haven't rolled it out yet, it's battery life.

53:59SPEAKEROkay.

54:00SPEAKERBut it seems like because the adaptive frame rate isn't redrawing screens,

54:04SPEAKERnotably on the iPad, you don't even have to do anything to optimize for that now.

54:08SPEAKERIt just works.

54:09SPEAKERWould you bet money that there is a prototype phone inside Apple somewhere running at 120 hertz?

54:14SPEAKEROh, 100%.

54:15SPEAKERThey're totally doing that, right?

54:16SPEAKERYeah.

54:16SPEAKERI mean, my guess is that they're waiting until they need a big feature.

54:20SPEAKEREvery time they release new hardware, they like it to have at least one or two big features.

54:25SPEAKERMy guess is that that is a future big feature for the phone.

54:28SPEAKERIt's significant.

54:31SPEAKERI really want 120 hertz phone.

54:33SPEAKERYou can see you're getting used to this iPad.

54:35SPEAKERI can imagine Phil standing up on the stage saying, look, we had this on the iPad.

54:41SPEAKERWe wanted to bring it to the iPhone.

54:44SPEAKERAlso, the next version of Mac OS is called dope.

54:47SPEAKEROnly we have the courage to double the frame rate on our phone.

54:51SPEAKERLook, we're not even going to double it.

54:52SPEAKERWe're going to triple it.

54:52SPEAKERIt's 180 hertz.

54:54SPEAKERI'm just deciding this right now.

54:55SPEAKERJohnny Ive is out.

54:56SPEAKERFuck that guy.

54:57SPEAKERI can do whatever I want.

54:58SPEAKERApple.

54:59SPEAKERYeah, that's my guess.

55:00SPEAKERYeah, phones seem a little stagnant right now, so that seems like a no brainer to me

55:04SPEAKERat some point for that to happen.

55:06SPEAKERMy bet is that it's a math problem in that under certain use cases, it's going to increase

55:12SPEAKERload and decrease battery life.

55:14SPEAKERAnd certain use cases, it'll increase battery life.

55:16SPEAKERAnd they're figuring out like they're playing the mid-maxing battery life game and will

55:22SPEAKERdecide when they get there.

55:23SPEAKERAnd again, I know if you haven't seen it in person, it sounds like you're just splitting

55:26SPEAKERhairs, like how much better could it be?

55:28SPEAKERIt's super good.

55:28SPEAKERAnd you and to be fair, like what's out there on phones now is fine.

55:31SPEAKERIf you haven't seen it, it doesn't make a difference.

55:33SPEAKERLike what you have is totally fine until you see it side by side.

55:38SPEAKERI mean, and it really it's a combination of HDR on the iPad, especially like HDR plus

55:45SPEAKERthe high frame rate makes like watching if you're watching Thor Ragnarok or something

55:50SPEAKERand like the colors are so bright.

55:52SPEAKERIt's amazing.

55:52SPEAKERYeah.

55:53SPEAKERYeah.

55:53SPEAKERAll right.

55:54SPEAKERLast question or go?

55:55SPEAKERNo, no, we can go.

55:56SPEAKERI could look.

55:57SPEAKERWe got time.

55:58SPEAKERThis is the danger of bringing me on.

55:59SPEAKERI can just keep asking questions.

56:00SPEAKERI have 26 hours of space left on this SD card.

56:03SPEAKEROkay.

56:04SPEAKERNow let me get my list of questions out here.

56:06SPEAKERExtra Life 2019 starts now.

56:07SPEAKERWhat do you think about non-rectangular screens?

56:12SPEAKERLike notches and stuff?

56:13SPEAKERI hate the notch.

56:14SPEAKERReally?

56:14SPEAKERI weirded out by rounded corners on screens.

56:17SPEAKERYeah.

56:18SPEAKERYou couldn't take the notch.

56:19SPEAKERI've got the old man phone.

56:20SPEAKERI've got the, this is a proper ass 16 by nine rectangular screen.

56:25SPEAKERI like the notch.

56:26SPEAKERI don't like the notch.

56:27SPEAKERI'm kind of used to it.

56:28SPEAKERI'm sure I would get used to it too.

56:29SPEAKERBut I just, I'm just being curmudgeonly about this.

56:31SPEAKERYou know what I like about the notch?

56:33SPEAKERWhat's that?

56:34SPEAKERIs that like, they use it to frame the business.

56:36SPEAKERI could see like having all your little UI elements up in the notch in the crannies.

56:41SPEAKERIn the horns.

56:42SPEAKERUp there is interesting, I guess.

56:44SPEAKERBut like.

56:46SPEAKERI think the notch is a short term solve.

56:48SPEAKERYeah, totally.

56:49SPEAKERLike the second they figure out how to get rid of that, they're going to get rid of that.

56:52SPEAKERRight.

56:52SPEAKERI mean, there's already some Android phones that have just like a circle.

56:55SPEAKERYeah, but I've seen.

56:56SPEAKERI think that's worse.

56:57SPEAKERReally wonky solutions in that space.

56:59SPEAKERLike have you seen, there's a couple that have a motorized camera that rises out of the phone.

57:02SPEAKERThat's a picture.

57:03SPEAKERThat's bad.

57:04SPEAKERThat's a bad idea.

57:05SPEAKERIt's going to break in two months.

57:06SPEAKERYeah.

57:07SPEAKERIt was a physical slider that you could pop up.

57:10SPEAKERActually, the physical slider is kind of appealing because if you, if like you could turn on the

57:13SPEAKERphone as fast as just flipping a thing up, that would be nice.

57:17SPEAKERThat'd be okay with that.

57:18SPEAKERI don't know if you saw, and this is not even barely about screens, but the rumor about

57:23SPEAKERmaybe the next iPhone or the next next iPhone is they're bringing back Touch ID.

57:27SPEAKERBecause they found a way to make the entire screen, the thumbprints.

57:29SPEAKEROh, they had a patent for that years ago.

57:31SPEAKERIs that happening?

57:32SPEAKERAnd the assumption when they, when the prototypes of the iPhone 10 leaked was that that was the

57:36SPEAKERthing.

57:37SPEAKERSo I have to assume they are working to try to figure out how to put like the front facing

57:41SPEAKERcamera underneath the screen and all that stuff.

57:43SPEAKERI mean, maybe I don't, I don't know.

57:47SPEAKERI hate the notch, man.

57:48SPEAKERIt really, I thought it was going to make me crazy and I didn't buy the phone at launch.

57:52SPEAKERAnd then I saw my wife's phone.

57:53SPEAKERI was like, oh, okay, well, here we go.

57:55SPEAKERYeah. I think it's, I think it's okay.

57:58SPEAKERYeah.

57:59SPEAKERI think it's I think here's the thing I've found is that if the ratio of notch to not

58:05SPEAKERnotch is right, it's less offensive.

58:07SPEAKERLike some of the, some of the manufacturers make like a really squatty tall notch that

58:12SPEAKERjust, it just feels like a mistake.

58:14SPEAKERI don't know.

58:15SPEAKEROkay.

58:16SPEAKERLike it's, I guess I get what you're saying.

58:17SPEAKERIt's a personal preference.

58:19SPEAKERDon't, don't ask me about my notch.

58:21SPEAKERI'm very uncomfortable talking about my notch.

58:23SPEAKERI'm sorry.

58:23SPEAKERIt's okay.

58:24SPEAKERThat's fair.

58:25SPEAKERAll right.

58:25SPEAKERI'll stop.

58:26SPEAKERYou got any more?

58:28SPEAKERI think you're tapped screens, screens, refresh rates.

58:31SPEAKERWho knew?

58:32SPEAKERYeah.

58:32SPEAKERAfter, after years of stagnation, it seems like there's a whole lot happening in every

58:36SPEAKERshit is happening category of screen right now.

58:39SPEAKERIt's the really interesting thing to me about right about screens right now is that TV space

58:43SPEAKERwhere you're looking at TVs that are more capable than the interfaces allow.

58:47SPEAKERAnd like your best experiences using the onboard apps, which I'm looking at these TVs coming

58:53SPEAKERout, going crazy because I want to know led and these things do the refresh rate.

58:57SPEAKERBut when you get a new console next year and hook them up, they're not going to.

58:59SPEAKERBupkis.

59:00SPEAKERYeah.

59:00SPEAKERLike that.

59:01SPEAKERYour best option is going to be to connect to the console remotely using the app from the TV.

59:07SPEAKEROh, it's a bad idea.

59:08SPEAKERStream, nobody's streaming games.

59:10SPEAKERNobody's going to ever go for streaming games.

59:11SPEAKERThat's another topic.

59:12SPEAKEROf course.

59:12SPEAKERThen you know, what's going to happen is the consoles are going to come out next year and

59:14SPEAKERthe new TVs will be out to do all that stuff.

59:16SPEAKERAnd I'm going to look at it and I'm going to say, but what do you think next year's TVs?

59:19SPEAKERNo, don't do that.

59:20SPEAKERThis is your mistake.

59:21SPEAKEROnce you see something that's close enough, boom, jump.

59:24SPEAKERJust throw that credit card down as fast as you can.

59:26SPEAKERThere it is.

59:27SPEAKERThere it is again.

59:27SPEAKERGood enough.

59:28SPEAKERYeah.

59:28SPEAKERGood enough.

59:29SPEAKEROkay.

59:29SPEAKERGood enough.

59:30SPEAKERLook, your TV has been good enough for a long time, but as soon as the next good enough is here.

59:36SPEAKERYeah.

59:36SPEAKERAs soon as long, as soon as it's no longer good enough.

59:38SPEAKERYeah.

59:38SPEAKERJump.

59:39SPEAKERYeah.

59:39SPEAKEROkay.

59:40SPEAKEROLED HDR though.

59:42SPEAKERYeah.

59:42SPEAKERIt's real pretty.

59:44SPEAKERSo I hear if you have questions about adaptive refresh rate, maybe ask us on Twitter.

59:47SPEAKERI don't know.

59:47SPEAKERSure.

59:48SPEAKERWhy not?

59:48SPEAKERI'm Will Smith on Twitter.

59:50SPEAKERI'm Brad Shoemaker.

59:51SPEAKERWe'll see you guys next week.

59:52SPEAKERThank you.

59:53SPEAKERBye.

59:54SPEAKERSo we're back.

59:54SPEAKERIt's the present again.

59:56SPEAKERBrad, how's your new monitor?

59:58SPEAKERI have not quite there yet, but Hey, guess what?

1:00:00SPEAKERI'm going to buy.

1:00:00SPEAKEROh, I've taken an important life step.

1:00:04SPEAKERI've decided to buy new monitors.

1:00:06SPEAKEROh, thank goodness.

1:00:07SPEAKERWhat are you going to get?

1:00:08SPEAKERI think the one thing that changed since we recorded that episode is I was at a family

1:00:12SPEAKERmember's house and they had a couple of 27 inch monitors and I had sat down and looked at

1:00:15SPEAKERthem and I was like, Oh, this isn't so big.

1:00:17SPEAKERYeah.

1:00:17SPEAKERNo, you can always use more space.

1:00:20SPEAKERI had the idiotic idea that it was going to overcrowd my desk, but they're really not

1:00:23SPEAKERthat bad.

1:00:23SPEAKERSo, you know, the next step is to go from two 27 inch monitors to three 27 inch monitors

1:00:30SPEAKERand then have surround vision.

1:00:32SPEAKERSome people would argue you should just get one gigantic monitor.

1:00:34SPEAKERThat's like 42 inches.

1:00:36SPEAKERI have a friend who's argued that for years and the dot pitch on the giant 42 inch monitors

1:00:41SPEAKERis not such that I can use them for reading text.

1:00:43SPEAKERWell, I'm talking the insane curved wide, wide, wide, triple wide.

1:00:48SPEAKERYou know, the wide monitors are great right up until the moment that you need to stream

1:00:51SPEAKERstuff onto say twitch.tv and that does a 10 ADP stream.

1:00:55SPEAKERAnd then you have some weird stretched out video anyway.

1:00:57SPEAKERYeah.

1:00:58SPEAKERSo you're buying a monitor you've committed.

1:01:00SPEAKERI want a couple of good 1440 P 27 inch, just proper ass 16 by nine IPS.

1:01:06SPEAKERYou're going to go G-Sync probably free sync.

1:01:09SPEAKERSo I've now gone down the rabbit hole of I've become well acquainted with TFT central since

1:01:15SPEAKERwe were, who doesn't love TFT central.

1:01:17SPEAKERI've now been reading press releases issued by the manufacturers of LCD panels, not even

1:01:23SPEAKERthe monitor makers.

1:01:24SPEAKERI mean, I'm talking Panda and AU Optronics, the kind of the biggest the actual people

1:01:30SPEAKERwho make the panels.

1:01:31SPEAKERSo I've got my, do you think this is helping or making it worse?

1:01:34SPEAKERI'm just, I'm asking for a friend.

1:01:37SPEAKERI think I've got my eye on so AU Optronics, I guess is the biggest or one of the biggest

1:01:43SPEAKERmakers of LCD panels.

1:01:44SPEAKEROkay.

1:01:44SPEAKERProbably like the highest quality ones.

1:01:46SPEAKERThey just announced so a bit like genuinely the big development since we talked is that

1:01:50SPEAKERthey seem to be going way harder into IPS.

1:01:52SPEAKERFinally, it was one of those check marks I was holding out for, right?

1:01:55SPEAKERLike I want IPS, I want high refresh, certain pixel densities, blah, blah, blah.

1:01:59SPEAKERBut previously there were not a ton of high, high refresh IPS screens on the market, but

1:02:04SPEAKERfinally we're seeing a bunch of that.

1:02:06SPEAKERIt seems something's definitely changed because like for a while, the only one you could get

1:02:09SPEAKERthat was a 4k greater than 60 Hertz IPS panel was that Nvidia panel.

1:02:14SPEAKERThat's two grand.

1:02:15SPEAKERSo LG is, yeah, LG is making some of their own Panda, which is another manufacturer is

1:02:20SPEAKERmaking a bunch that like Acer and Asus are using.

1:02:24SPEAKERBut AU Optronics announced a nice line of like, I think it's this 27 inch 1440p.

1:02:29SPEAKERIt's like high color accuracy, like 99% SRGB gamut.

1:02:33SPEAKERHDR?

1:02:34SPEAKERUh, I think it might have some HDR, but like HDR and LCD PC monitors is a joke, right?

1:02:40SPEAKERLike it's not real is my understanding.

1:02:42SPEAKERLike Windows doesn't support that stuff very well is my understanding.

1:02:45SPEAKERYeah, like Windows has bad support.

1:02:46SPEAKERAnd also my understanding is most of the monitors don't hit the brightness levels that you need

1:02:50SPEAKERfor like actual spec HDR.

1:02:52SPEAKERThat would make sense.

1:02:53SPEAKERSo the solution is just to get one of those LG OLEDs and put that on your wall above your

1:02:57SPEAKERcomputer and then play games on that.

1:02:58SPEAKERWe'll get to that.

1:02:59SPEAKERI think I've cooled a lot on OLED.

1:03:02SPEAKEROne last thing I was going to ask about monitors.

1:03:05SPEAKERI'm probably overthinking this, but, uh, no, no.

1:03:08SPEAKERMe?

1:03:09SPEAKEROverthink something?

1:03:09SPEAKERI'm shocked.

1:03:10SPEAKERI can't imagine you would do that.

1:03:12SPEAKERI'll probably be hooking consoles up to these monitors on occasion, uh, which, which will

1:03:16SPEAKERbe feeding a 1080 signal into a 1440 screen.

1:03:19SPEAKERIs it rational at all to worry about scaling or does it, is that handled pretty well?

1:03:23SPEAKERObviously it's not, it's not one to one pixel scaling.

1:03:25SPEAKERSo I just wondered if that would degrade the image very much or if that's stupid to worry

1:03:29SPEAKERabout.

1:03:29SPEAKERSo if you're piping it through a capture card, like for streaming or whatever, then that

1:03:36SPEAKERit'll get scaled up by the graphics card scaler, which is good.

1:03:39SPEAKERYeah, I probably, I would probably just split the HDMI and go straight into the, like the

1:03:42SPEAKERsecond port on the monitor.

1:03:44SPEAKERI guess that just depends on how good the scaler is.

1:03:46SPEAKERI was going to say it depends on how good the scalers are.

1:03:48SPEAKERI don't actually have a 1440p display.

1:03:50SPEAKERI have a 4k display, so it scales up.

1:03:52SPEAKERIt scales up, you know, 1080 to 1440 is just making every pixel four pixels and it works

1:03:56SPEAKERout really nicely.

1:03:58SPEAKERYeah.

1:03:58SPEAKERUm, I'm sorry.

1:03:59SPEAKER1080 to 4k is making it.

1:04:01SPEAKERObviously that is, that is a linear scale.

1:04:03SPEAKERSo it's, it's, there's no, so I, I think when you're looking at the monitor, you buy, look

1:04:08SPEAKERat the reviews for the scaler.

1:04:09SPEAKEROkay.

1:04:09SPEAKERCause I think, I think a lot of people are going to do, I think that 1080 to 1440 thing

1:04:15SPEAKERis a thing that happens to a lot of people.

1:04:17SPEAKERSo it'll be, it should be part of your review.

1:04:19SPEAKERYeah.

1:04:19SPEAKERI was just wondering how dire, how dire that situation is.

1:04:21SPEAKERI just decided that high refresh is more important than 4k to me right now.

1:04:24SPEAKERAnd they're, they're like three 4k high refresh monitors on the market and they're all like

1:04:29SPEAKER$1,200.

1:04:30SPEAKERYeah.

1:04:30SPEAKERThey start at 12, 1200 bucks and go up to two.

1:04:33SPEAKERThe, um, the thing I would say is the other thing to consider is that with the consoles,

1:04:39SPEAKERthe graphics are muddy enough now on consoles.

1:04:41SPEAKERCause a lot of them are doing like, like if you're playing, I can't remember what game

1:04:46SPEAKERit was like death stranding or something.

1:04:47SPEAKERAnd since they announced the other day run, Oh no, it was, um, outer worlds runs at 1440p

1:04:52SPEAKERinternally on a PS4 pro and they upscale it to 4k if you have a 4k set.

1:04:56SPEAKERSo like you're already doing that upscaling.

1:04:58SPEAKERLike it's, it's, it's, it's probably fine.

1:05:01SPEAKERThat's the TLDR.

1:05:02SPEAKERIt's probably not worth worrying about.

1:05:04SPEAKEROkay.

1:05:04SPEAKERYeah.

1:05:04SPEAKERNo, the, the, the other things, the refresh rate, having something that works with your

1:05:08SPEAKERvideo card, right.

1:05:09SPEAKERFor the, for the, for the no latency slash variable refresh rate stuff is the more important

1:05:14SPEAKERthing.

1:05:15SPEAKERI just have kicked myself numerous times since we recorded this episode, because I'd got

1:05:20SPEAKERto looking at monitors and realize that if I had decided like three or four years ago

1:05:25SPEAKERthat I was okay with 27 inch, I could have bought a couple of cheapo 27 inch IPSs for

1:05:30SPEAKERlike two 50 each.

1:05:32SPEAKERAnd they probably would have paid for themselves within the electricity savings by now.

1:05:35SPEAKEROh, that's probably true.

1:05:36SPEAKERCause you have cold cathodes on your old monitors.

1:05:38SPEAKERYeah.

1:05:39SPEAKERIt's vintage 2005 technology.

1:05:41SPEAKERYeah.

1:05:42SPEAKERThe, um, I mean the thing, the thing that the good thing is having the opportunity to

1:05:47SPEAKERbuy either G-Sync or Nvidia compatible free sync.

1:05:50SPEAKERThat'll work with your video card.

1:05:51SPEAKERThey'll work with your system and that you have is, is going to be good.

1:05:55SPEAKERAnd that's actually not to prattle about this forever, but that's another kind of development

1:05:59SPEAKERI've noticed since we recorded was that, um, there are a lot more Nvidia branded free sync

1:06:04SPEAKERmonitors coming out, which are significantly cheaper than the G-Sync alternatives.

1:06:08SPEAKERAnd almost as good.

1:06:09SPEAKERWe talked about this a little bit in the episode, I think the G-Sync ones require special hardware.

1:06:13SPEAKERRight.

1:06:14SPEAKERYeah.

1:06:14SPEAKERWe, we got into the technical nuts and bolts of it, but it's more on the marketing side.

1:06:18SPEAKERLike Nvidia, what I mean is Nvidia is putting their stamp of approval on a lot more free

1:06:21SPEAKERsync monitors now, like they're out of the box.

1:06:23SPEAKERThey're coming with straight up Nvidia stickers on them.

1:06:25SPEAKERSo it's like, you're getting, you're getting most of the benefits of adaptive sync and,

1:06:28SPEAKERand their approval to use with their cards without, without that like insane, you know,

1:06:32SPEAKER$200.

1:06:34SPEAKERYeah.

1:06:34SPEAKERWell, the thing that's happened is the, the, the high frame rate standards are becoming,

1:06:39SPEAKERare moving closer to being part of the real standards that are actually in the market.

1:06:43SPEAKERSo this is what always happens when Nvidia does a proprietary thing early is that for

1:06:48SPEAKERa while it's proprietary.

1:06:49SPEAKERAnd then the moment that they, as they, as it inches closer to mainstream acceptance,

1:06:53SPEAKERthey open up the proprietary stuff more and more as they get, as they get deeper in.

1:06:57SPEAKERThat's exciting.

1:06:58SPEAKEROh yeah.

1:06:58SPEAKERIt's a good time.

1:06:59SPEAKERIt's a good time to buy a monitor.

1:07:00SPEAKERIt turns out.

1:07:00SPEAKERYeah.

1:07:01SPEAKERI'm very excited.

1:07:03SPEAKERThat said, the first monitor using those new panels I've got my eye on isn't, aren't coming

1:07:06SPEAKERuntil January.

1:07:07SPEAKERSo stay tuned.

1:07:09SPEAKERThere's still time for all sorts of new stuff to come out that will push that decision back

1:07:13SPEAKEReven further.

1:07:13SPEAKERYou can stay on the 22 inches.

1:07:15SPEAKERStill time to change my mind.

1:07:16SPEAKERSpeaking of holding off on making decisions.

1:07:19SPEAKERYeah.

1:07:20SPEAKERSo you want to talk about the Samsung thing?

1:07:22SPEAKERYeah.

1:07:23SPEAKERSo some stuff has been happening with micro led in TVs all of a sudden.

1:07:26SPEAKERSo I'm thinking maybe I'm not going to buy an OLED TV after all.

1:07:30SPEAKERSo we didn't even talk about this on the episode because I didn't think it was a thing that

1:07:33SPEAKERwas potentially real for consumers.

1:07:35SPEAKERBut Samsung, and I think LG, I can't remember who the other vendor, but apparently there

1:07:40SPEAKERare, there are multiple vendors making micro led modular micro led panels that are you've

1:07:49SPEAKERseen these before.

1:07:50SPEAKERPeople use them as customer facing installations in malls.

1:07:56SPEAKERAnd basically if you see a big video wall that's an arbitrary size and isn't shaped

1:08:02SPEAKERlike a TV, it's usually these panels.

1:08:05SPEAKERSo they're typically for installations.

1:08:07SPEAKERThey've been in the past very expensive.

1:08:10SPEAKERThey require a lot of back panel wiring and weird power stuff and all that.

1:08:14SPEAKERAnd it seems like they're now releasing them Samsung at least is going to release them

1:08:21SPEAKERin a way that's maybe not for like normal consumers next year or the year after.

1:08:27SPEAKERBut it feels like the early days of OLED when we were looking at $10,000 OLED sets five,

1:08:32SPEAKERsix years ago.

1:08:32SPEAKERYeah.

1:08:33SPEAKERSo Samsung, I believe is the one that announced a 75 inch consumer TV micro led for this year.

1:08:39SPEAKERBut, but yeah, I believe, I believe it is still modular though.

1:08:42SPEAKERYeah.

1:08:43SPEAKERAre you sure?

1:08:43SPEAKERI believe so.

1:08:44SPEAKERYeah.

1:08:44SPEAKERI think basically they're selling, they're selling the panels and you kind of connect

1:08:49SPEAKERthem to each other in the shape that you want, which most people it's going to be a 16 by

1:08:53SPEAKERnine you know, 1080p or 4K set.

1:08:58SPEAKERThe micro led, just if you don't know what micro led is, it's just a very small LEDs.

1:09:02SPEAKERSo instead of the pixels being either an organic light emitting diode in the case of OLEDs

1:09:08SPEAKERor some back lit sub pixels that are filtered out by a LCD screen.

1:09:16SPEAKERIt's just lights.

1:09:17SPEAKERIt's like a jumbotron for all intents and purposes.

1:09:19SPEAKERWell, my understanding is it's more or less the same tech as OLED.

1:09:23SPEAKERIt's just that they don't use the organic compounds in the individual pixels.

1:09:27SPEAKERYeah.

1:09:27SPEAKERSo there's less chance of burn in.

1:09:28SPEAKERI think that some pixels are bigger on micro led than they are.

1:09:32SPEAKERYou might be right.

1:09:32SPEAKERI'm sure there are some fine distinctions, but I feel like I guess more from a practical

1:09:36SPEAKERconsumer standpoint, the gist of micro led is that it's basically all the advantages

1:09:40SPEAKERof OLED without really any of the drawbacks.

1:09:42SPEAKERThat's my well, but so that's always what happens when people come out with new technologies.

1:09:46SPEAKERThey're like, well, this is just like the other thing, but it's better in some key way.

1:09:50SPEAKERAnd then like five years later, you find out that plasmas burn in just like everything

1:09:54SPEAKERelse or whatever the example is.

1:09:56SPEAKERYeah, that's kind of the opposite here, because the reason burn in happens on OLEDs is because

1:10:00SPEAKERthose organic compounds break down relatively quickly with use.

1:10:04SPEAKERYeah, and these, these don't use that type of material.

1:10:07SPEAKERSo that's not going to be a problem.

1:10:08SPEAKERAnd the other thing is they're talking the, even the first gen models are going to have

1:10:12SPEAKERlike four times the potential brightness of OLED.

1:10:15SPEAKERYeah.

1:10:16SPEAKERSo that's the big benefit is the brightness and the black levels are still pure black.

1:10:20SPEAKERThere's nothing black, black levels and viewing angles and stuff like that.

1:10:25SPEAKERBut anyway, I don't know how many I just looked it up by the way.

1:10:29SPEAKERIt's next year, 2020 is when, is when that 75 inch micro led is shipping from Samsung.

1:10:35SPEAKERAnd if you want, if you want an 8k, it's basically 200 inches or something.

1:10:42SPEAKERIt's basically like the size of a wall.

1:10:43SPEAKERYeah.

1:10:44SPEAKERCause they just, you just add 16 times, four times as many blocks, basically.

1:10:49SPEAKERI haven't been able to find if this TV they're talking about is going to be modular or not.

1:10:54SPEAKERThe thing I read implied that it is, but it's unclear.

1:10:57SPEAKERI mean, if you're saying that consumer TVs, micro led TVs are going to have tiny seams

1:11:01SPEAKERwhere the individual panels are put together, that doesn't sound so appealing.

1:11:04SPEAKERWell, no, no, no.

1:11:05SPEAKERSo that's the point is the point is the modular designs are such that there are no seams.

1:11:09SPEAKERLike there's no bezel on them.

1:11:11SPEAKERSo they're a little bit thicker than like an OLED TV, but they, they hook together in

1:11:15SPEAKERsuch a way that you can't, it's it's like when you see a big video wall.

1:11:19SPEAKERThere's no discernible line.

1:11:20SPEAKERThat's like no discernible line.

1:11:22SPEAKERYou can Google like micro led modular wall or something like that.

1:11:25SPEAKERAnd you can find videos and it's a, it's a pretty cool tech demo of like, you'll have

1:11:29SPEAKERlike a giant sort of phone shaped vertical screen.

1:11:31SPEAKERAnd then they'll walk up and like attach another modular one to the side.

1:11:34SPEAKERAnd then the video just automatically appears on that extension.

1:11:36SPEAKERLike it's these weird L shaped screens and stuff that you can assemble and disassemble

1:11:40SPEAKERin real time.

1:11:41SPEAKERIt's it's a cool effect.

1:11:42SPEAKERI have so many questions about how the thing that drives the video in those screens is

1:11:48SPEAKERgoing to work.

1:11:48SPEAKERYeah.

1:11:49SPEAKERCause like, can you imagine plugging in a PS5 into one of these things and it's like,

1:11:53SPEAKERoh, okay, your modular video wall is in this configuration.

1:11:57SPEAKERSo we're going to make the game 16 by nine vertically instead of 16 by nine horizontally.

1:12:03SPEAKERRight.

1:12:03SPEAKERI mean, the nice thing is the modular video wall is actually the, the true solve for people

1:12:08SPEAKERshooting video vertically on their cell phones.

1:12:10SPEAKERGreat.

1:12:11SPEAKERSo you just need to have one that's vertical and you make a plus.

1:12:15SPEAKERIt's two 16 by nine pluses and you give, you have one for video, vertical video, one for

1:12:20SPEAKERhorizontal video, like decent people shoot.

1:12:22SPEAKERYeah. Like that's crazy. If you look at these tech demos, like you essentially have screens

1:12:26SPEAKERthat are the shape of Tetris pieces.

1:12:27SPEAKERI mean, just like weird appendages sticking out the sides and stuff.

1:12:30SPEAKERIt's a, it's kind of fascinating.

1:12:31SPEAKERI just remembered the one other thing, and again, this is Samsung touting this.

1:12:35SPEAKERLike we'll see how it pans out, but they say that micro led is so low energy consumption

1:12:39SPEAKERthat it's practical to just leave your TV on all the time.

1:12:43SPEAKERThey always say that, man.

1:12:44SPEAKERThey said that about plasmas and we all know the truth there.

1:12:47SPEAKERThey're, they're citing like what was the figure of like the lifetime operational rating

1:12:51SPEAKERof like, I think it was, it was basically 11 years of constant 24, seven use before

1:12:55SPEAKERthey, uh, wow.

1:12:57SPEAKERReally?

1:12:57SPEAKERYeah.

1:12:58SPEAKERIt's like a hundred thousand hours or something like that.

1:13:00SPEAKERLike they're, they're literally saying that the potential for burn-in is non-existent

1:13:03SPEAKERand the power consumption is low enough that you could use your TV as a, as a video window,

1:13:08SPEAKERlike window, like physical window in your house, you know, like display landscapes or

1:13:11SPEAKERsomething when you're not using it.

1:13:12SPEAKERHow, I mean, that seems just unbelievably wasteful, but okay.

1:13:16SPEAKERI mean, let her rip, man.

1:13:18SPEAKERYou're having to take the manufacturer at their word on this, but it's, um, I don't

1:13:21SPEAKERknow.

1:13:21SPEAKERI feel like these claims are so outlandish that they couldn't possibly be lying about

1:13:25SPEAKERthem.

1:13:25SPEAKERThrow your OLED in the trash.

1:13:27SPEAKERGet this new thing.

1:13:28SPEAKERIt's much better.

1:13:28SPEAKERActually.

1:13:29SPEAKERI think I've, I've, I've reversed course in the course of this conversation.

1:13:32SPEAKERI've thought, eh, maybe I will buy a cheap OLED in the interim.

1:13:36SPEAKERYeah.

1:13:37SPEAKERWe're not getting the first set until next year.

1:13:39SPEAKERI mean, we're talking probably what, five years before they're really affordable.

1:13:42SPEAKERI think 2025 before you're looking at like a $2,000 4k set would be my bet.

1:13:47SPEAKEROkay.

1:13:47SPEAKERYeah. Maybe I'll get another TV in the interim.

1:13:49SPEAKERYeah.

1:13:50SPEAKERI mean, the thing is the OLEDs are going to be even cheaper.

1:13:52SPEAKERSo like they're getting there.

1:13:54SPEAKERYeah.

1:13:54SPEAKERAnd they're, and it's, it's, it's a lot of this is, is this a good enough situation or

1:13:58SPEAKERis this a, like, you know, like the OLED is a really, I was, I recorded a podcast that

1:14:05SPEAKERtested yesterday and the, the, they have an OLED behind their set and man, that thing

1:14:10SPEAKERis just gorgeous.

1:14:11SPEAKERIt looks so good.

1:14:13SPEAKEREven when you're just showing like wallpaper on it.

1:14:15SPEAKERSo, so yeah, get an OLED.

1:14:18SPEAKERIn the meantime, this is, this is the TV after that TV.

1:14:21SPEAKEROh, great.

1:14:21SPEAKERNow I'm buying monitors and a TV.

1:14:23SPEAKERWell, it's time, Brad.

1:14:24SPEAKERIt's time.

1:14:25SPEAKERI guess.

1:14:27SPEAKERShould we do an email?

1:14:27SPEAKERYou want to, do you want to, do you want to dig into the emails?

1:14:30SPEAKERIf, if people want to send us an email, they can write to us at techpod@content.town or

1:14:37SPEAKERyou can hit us on Twitter too.

1:14:38SPEAKERContent town.

1:14:38SPEAKERContent town.

1:14:39SPEAKERIt's where, it's where you go.

1:14:41SPEAKERIt's where the kids go for all the good content.

1:14:44SPEAKERPaul Emmanuel was listening to the battery episode and said, Hey, I'm catching up episodes

1:14:48SPEAKERand enjoyed the one on batteries.

1:14:49SPEAKERI was wondering what you knew about batteries for storing excess energy generated by solar

1:14:53SPEAKERpanels.

1:14:54SPEAKERWe have a three kilowatt system and ended up selling lots of that back to the grid at

1:14:57SPEAKERa very poor return.

1:14:59SPEAKERAbout 20% of what you pay if you're buying the electricity.

1:15:03SPEAKERI'd like to store the energy I generate to use, but assume the cost of the batteries

1:15:06SPEAKERare going to drop drastically over the next five or so years.

1:15:08SPEAKERThanks to electric car developments.

1:15:10SPEAKERThanks, Paul.

1:15:12SPEAKERYeah, so in an ideal situation, if you have solar, this is something we've done a lot

1:15:16SPEAKERof research on because we've got to do a new roof next year.

1:15:18SPEAKERAnd when we do the new roof, we're putting solar on because you do them both at the same

1:15:22SPEAKERtime so that the solar people can't destroy the roof and the roof people don't destroy

1:15:26SPEAKERthe solar.

1:15:26SPEAKERAnd there's no like he said, she said situation.

1:15:30SPEAKERThe we're lucky enough to live in California where they have to pay market rate for energy

1:15:36SPEAKERthey buy from you based on the time it's generated.

1:15:39SPEAKERSo energy in California at three o'clock in the afternoon when solar is going to peak

1:15:45SPEAKERis way more expensive than it is at midnight when you're going to use it.

1:15:48SPEAKERSo it makes sense to sell it to the utility at the high rate during the daytime and buy

1:15:54SPEAKERit back from them at night when the sun's down.

1:15:57SPEAKERSo batteries don't make financial sense.

1:15:59SPEAKERIf you're only getting 20% of what the rate is, it might make more sense for you.

1:16:04SPEAKERMy understanding is that even small battery installations start at five or ten thousand

1:16:10SPEAKERdollars.

1:16:12SPEAKERSo you have to amortize that out over the like it should be an easy thing to spreadsheet.

1:16:16SPEAKERYou think about how long you're in the house.

1:16:18SPEAKERYou think about how long it's going to cost.

1:16:19SPEAKERYou think about the batteries.

1:16:20SPEAKERYou look at the number of the charge cycles that the batteries have and then math that

1:16:25SPEAKERout and see what your savings is versus selling back to the grid at the 20% rate.

1:16:31SPEAKERWhat kind of capacity are we talking about? How much excess can you store in a situation

1:16:35SPEAKERlike that?

1:16:36SPEAKERI'm looking up the power walls right now.

1:16:38SPEAKERI think the power walls that Tesla makes are 10,000 kilowatt hours.

1:16:44SPEAKERNo, that's not right.

1:16:46SPEAKER10 kilowatt hours, maybe?

1:16:47SPEAKERThat sounds like a lot.

1:16:48SPEAKERMaybe it's bigger than your phone.

1:16:50SPEAKERThe other thing that I think is going to happen, Tesla recommends two power walls, of course.

1:16:57SPEAKERIt does not say how big the power walls are.

1:17:01SPEAKEROf course.

1:17:02SPEAKERThe upshot is, there's two other things to consider.

1:17:07SPEAKEROne is that power storage that is not batteries is going to come online, I think, in the next

1:17:11SPEAKERfew years where people use compressed air.

1:17:15SPEAKERFor example, one of the things that they do in Switzerland to store solar energy during

1:17:20SPEAKERthe daytime is they have two lakes at high altitude.

1:17:23SPEAKEROne is at high altitude, one's at low altitude.

1:17:25SPEAKERBasically, store kinetic energy.

1:17:27SPEAKERYeah, so you pump the water up using the solar energy during the day, and then you run it

1:17:30SPEAKERdown at night to hydro.

1:17:32SPEAKERThat's a pretty easy thing to do and maybe more effective than solar even in your neck

1:17:38SPEAKERof the woods.

1:17:40SPEAKER30 kilowatt hours per day, they say that two power walls will leave you self-powered at

1:17:46SPEAKERTesla.

1:17:47SPEAKERWait, hang on.

1:17:48SPEAKERBut I've been told that when the wind stops blowing, you can't watch TV anymore.

1:17:51SPEAKERWhat's up with that?

1:17:52SPEAKERLook, you should not vote for Republicans.

1:17:55SPEAKERThat's the answer to that question.

1:17:57SPEAKERYeah, so the idea is that it charges during the day and then you trickle out at night.

1:18:02SPEAKERThe other benefit of doing a battery solution is that most places, if you have a power outage,

1:18:09SPEAKERfor example, when the power was turned off in California last week because it was windy,

1:18:13SPEAKERif you have solar, most of the solar turns off automatically unless you have stuff inside

1:18:19SPEAKERthe house to regulate the power generation because they don't want solar pumping back

1:18:23SPEAKERinto the lines that line people are working on and could electrocute them.

1:18:30SPEAKERIt's important that your solar turns off when the power goes out, which makes no sense in

1:18:35SPEAKERsome ways because you don't want to back feed into the lines and risk hurting people.

1:18:39SPEAKERIs there no way to, I guess what's the word I'm looking for, kind of quarantine the power

1:18:44SPEAKERthat you're generating to the circuits in your house and not keep it from getting out

1:18:47SPEAKERonto the grid?

1:18:48SPEAKERYeah, there absolutely is.

1:18:49SPEAKERIt ends up working the same way that if you have a home fallover generator for when the

1:18:54SPEAKERpower goes out or something, it works the same way as that, basically.

1:18:58SPEAKEROkay.

1:18:58SPEAKERWell, I would like to think we're not about to live in the world where public utilities

1:19:02SPEAKERaren't routinely going offline for no good reason and that you have to worry about this

1:19:05SPEAKERstuff, but I guess it's good to have options.

1:19:06SPEAKERHey, Brad, I got bad news for you.

1:19:08SPEAKERWe already live in the world where one of the biggest public utilities in the country

1:19:14SPEAKERhasn't spent money on maintenance for the last 20 years.

1:19:17SPEAKERThere's still time to fix this, right?

1:19:18SPEAKERYeah, there's probably time to fix this.

1:19:20SPEAKERJust, you know, get a boat just in case.

1:19:23SPEAKEROkay, great.

1:19:25SPEAKERGreat.

1:19:25SPEAKEROn that cheery note.

1:19:26SPEAKERYeah, I think that's as good a place as any to wrap it up.

1:19:30SPEAKERYeah.

1:19:30SPEAKEROh, I actually have one more email.

1:19:33SPEAKERSurya said on episode three, Brad mentioned that he had a bunch of headless raspberry

1:19:37SPEAKERpies plugged into his network.

1:19:39SPEAKERAs someone living the stereotypical story of having a bunch of raspberry pies laying around

1:19:42SPEAKERcollecting dust, I was wondering, what do you guys use your raspberry pies for?

1:19:47SPEAKERSo I aborted that project.

1:19:48SPEAKERWhat I was attempting to do is, so I have a FreeNAS machine.

1:19:51SPEAKERI've had a couple of scares where like the boot media died on it at one point.

1:19:56SPEAKERSome other weird stuff where, you know, like one NAS is not enough, right?

1:19:59SPEAKERThat is patently untrue.

1:20:01SPEAKERThen he warned me about this when I built the FreeNAS machine.

1:20:04SPEAKERHe said, okay, now you've got to back up and now very soon you're going to want to back

1:20:07SPEAKERup for your backup.

1:20:08SPEAKERAnd then at some point I started figuring like, okay, maybe I need two local backups

1:20:12SPEAKERand then I'll also back up to the cloud and you just can't have enough backups.

1:20:14SPEAKERBut anyway, I bought a couple of, I don't know if you saw and they might still be on

1:20:19SPEAKERsale.

1:20:19SPEAKERThe Western Digital has the portable hard drive line.

1:20:22SPEAKERI think it's the elements series.

1:20:24SPEAKERThe elements I think is the one that gets up into really big sizes.

1:20:26SPEAKERLike I got, basically I bought it a couple of two tera, or I'm sorry, 10 terabyte, two

1:20:30SPEAKER10 terabyte drives.

1:20:31SPEAKERWow.

1:20:32SPEAKERBasically enough to back up my whole NAS.

1:20:34SPEAKEROkay.

1:20:34SPEAKERSo what I was trying to do was I was tinkering with installing FreeBSD on one of those pies

1:20:39SPEAKERand hooking those drives up to that and using that as a network replication target, either

1:20:44SPEAKERfor our sync or I was actually, I was looking into using, I don't know how familiar you

1:20:48SPEAKERare with ZFS is the file system that free NAS is.

1:20:51SPEAKERYeah.

1:20:51SPEAKERSo you can just replicate it.

1:20:52SPEAKERYeah.

1:20:53SPEAKERIt has, it has native built-in snapshot and replication tools.

1:20:55SPEAKERYeah.

1:20:56SPEAKERSo I was looking into, and this is super paranoid, but I just wanted that back up in a different

1:21:00SPEAKERphysical part of the house from the primary NAS.

1:21:02SPEAKEROkay.

1:21:03SPEAKERIn case the guinea pigs chew cables.

1:21:05SPEAKERYes.

1:21:05SPEAKEROr, you know, in case there's a fire or flood or whatever.

1:21:08SPEAKERI was going to say, you know, you can just install Linux on those cause you can put ZFS

1:21:12SPEAKERon Linux and it'll work.

1:21:13SPEAKERYeah.

1:21:14SPEAKERSo I came to that late.

1:21:15SPEAKERIt looks like ZFS on Linux is getting very mature now.

1:21:18SPEAKERIt's usable now.

1:21:19SPEAKERYeah.

1:21:20SPEAKERYeah.

1:21:20SPEAKERIt sounds like it's totally usable.

1:21:22SPEAKERI tried to, I tried to format those drives X4 in a striped raid configuration on a Raspbian,

1:21:29SPEAKERwhich is the Linux that runs on Raspberry Pi, but all Pi is only, or there's only a 32-bit

1:21:35SPEAKERkernel that runs on Raspberry Pis at the moment.

1:21:37SPEAKERAt least that's like well supported and you can't partition the full 20 terabytes of space

1:21:42SPEAKERwith a 32-bit kernel.

1:21:44SPEAKEROf course.

1:21:44SPEAKERYeah.

1:21:45SPEAKERSo that's why I started trying to do FreeBSD except that FreeBSD on ARM is currently kind

1:21:50SPEAKERof messy and not well supported either.

1:21:52SPEAKERSo I've just kind of, I think I'm just going to hook those USB drives straight up to the

1:21:55SPEAKERNAS and back up locally and forget all this nonsense.

1:21:58SPEAKERWell, I mean, the thing you could do is back them up locally and just plug them in once

1:22:02SPEAKERa month and do the replication task and then put them in a fire safe or something.

1:22:05SPEAKERI think that's what I'm going to do.

1:22:06SPEAKERI'm just going to have them back up every couple of weeks and then stick them in the

1:22:08SPEAKERcloset.

1:22:09SPEAKERThat's what I do.

1:22:11SPEAKERThe, I was going to say the other problem with the Raspberry Pis, I bet they don't have

1:22:14SPEAKERenough RAM to run ZFS at that scale.

1:22:16SPEAKERThat is the other thing that I came to.

1:22:17SPEAKERWell, so I was also trying to do it on an old Pi that's USB 2 and only has a hundred

1:22:21SPEAKERmegabit LAN, which is going to be a nightmare for keeping terabytes of data in sync.

1:22:27SPEAKERYou know, the new Pi 4s are pretty nice.

1:22:29SPEAKERLike they've got, what is it?

1:22:31SPEAKER4 gig, I think is the max amount of RAM.

1:22:32SPEAKERYeah, that's pretty good.

1:22:33SPEAKERAnd they're USB 3 and gigabit LAN.

1:22:35SPEAKERSo I might try to get a hold of one of those and give it another shot, but I think I'm

1:22:40SPEAKERjust going to do the local backup and stop being a crazy person.

1:22:43SPEAKERSo I have a couple of Pis.

1:22:46SPEAKEROne is hooked up to a 3D printer and it runs a piece of software called OctoPrint that

1:22:50SPEAKERbasically is like a headless print server for 3D printers.

1:22:56SPEAKERSo you send it your G code files and it just turns on the printer and goes, which is awesome.

1:23:00SPEAKERAnd you can hook up a little camera to it so you can watch the print happening.

1:23:05SPEAKERIt's a really lovely piece of software.

1:23:07SPEAKERThe other one used to be for playing old console games on my living room TV.

1:23:14SPEAKERAnd then I hacked a NES classic and I don't do that anymore because the NES classic looks nicer.

1:23:18SPEAKERSo everybody's got to do that once and then realize that it's kind of pointless.

1:23:22SPEAKERIt's not a great solution.

1:23:23SPEAKERI feel like that Pi 4 might actually make it a good solution.

1:23:27SPEAKERBecause it seems like the hardware is a lot better.

1:23:29SPEAKERBut yes, that's one of the reasons I want one of those.

1:23:31SPEAKERBut I was going to say generally, just if you've got an old Pi lying around and you

1:23:34SPEAKERwant something to do with it, I would recommend just browsing around for different open source

1:23:38SPEAKERprojects you can run on there.

1:23:40SPEAKERBecause like you said, you can put print servers, music servers.

1:23:43SPEAKERThere's stuff like Homebridge that lets you add HomeKit support to

1:23:47SPEAKERhome automated devices that don't support iOS.

1:23:49SPEAKERTons of stuff.

1:23:50SPEAKERThere's just endless little one-off homebrew projects that one or two people

1:23:55SPEAKERdevelop and host on GitHub.

1:23:56SPEAKERAnd you can really put those things into service and do all kinds of cool stuff.

1:24:00SPEAKERI assume there's probably a Raspberry Pi community site that lists all of these things and talks

1:24:04SPEAKERabout them.

1:24:05SPEAKERBut I've never seen it before.

1:24:06SPEAKERSo maybe it doesn't exist.

1:24:08SPEAKERMaybe this is a niche somebody could fill.

1:24:09SPEAKERBut the nice thing about those things running Linux is you don't even really need that.

1:24:13SPEAKERLike in most cases, in a lot of cases, a lot of the stuff that's developed for just like

1:24:17SPEAKERx86 proper Linux will also build on a Pi pretty easily.

1:24:20SPEAKERWell, that's true.

1:24:21SPEAKEROr there are binaries.

1:24:22SPEAKERThere are already precompiled binaries for a lot of those.

1:24:23SPEAKERWell, I was going to say installing, trying something new on a Raspberry Pi is usually

1:24:27SPEAKERas simple as buying a 32 gig SD card, copying an ISO over to it, and plugging it into the

1:24:34SPEAKERPi and trying out whatever the other thing you want to do is.

1:24:37SPEAKERSo it's super, super easy to just wipe it and start over if you screw things up.

1:24:41SPEAKERThere's also a whole other world of those microcontrollers that are that are really

1:24:45SPEAKERinteresting, like the teensies.

1:24:46SPEAKERYou can do all sorts of cool stuff with them.

1:24:49SPEAKERYeah, the Raspberry Pi is the one that I think gets probably the most third party support

1:24:54SPEAKERat this point.

1:24:55SPEAKERBut even all the way down to like those Intel USB stick PCs that are like $99 and are basically

1:25:01SPEAKERlike an x86 atom processor or a Pentium processor jammed on a on a thing that's like the size

1:25:08SPEAKERof a thumb drive.

1:25:09SPEAKERI was going to say, Brad, on the FreeNASB, you should replace your USB thumb drives with

1:25:13SPEAKERa cheap SSD.

1:25:15SPEAKERYou can get like I did that because my USB thumb drives kept dying.

1:25:19SPEAKERYeah.

1:25:19SPEAKERAnd the SSD, I got like a $30 128 gig SSD and it's worked flawlessly.

1:25:25SPEAKERLike I bought a couple of nice, I mean, nice, you know, they're like 12 bucks, but a couple

1:25:29SPEAKERof Samsung, like fairly high end USB thumb drives to replace the ones that died like

1:25:34SPEAKERthree months ago.

1:25:34SPEAKERAnd I've already started getting read write errors on those.

1:25:37SPEAKERAre those things just like too cheap and unreliable for the purpose that we're trying to use them

1:25:40SPEAKERfor?

1:25:41SPEAKERI think so.

1:25:41SPEAKERLike I at one point had a had a ZFS array of USB thumb drives to boot because FreeNASB

1:25:48SPEAKERyou boot off the USB thumb drive.

1:25:50SPEAKERRight.

1:25:50SPEAKERFor people who don't know, I don't think they're I don't think they don't they're not built

1:25:55SPEAKERfor that kind of use cycle.

1:25:56SPEAKERYeah, I think I guess I think it I think it just burns them out way too fast.

1:25:59SPEAKERThere's a there's an SSD recommendation.

1:26:01SPEAKERI'll send it to you and I'll post in the show notes for people at home.

1:26:04SPEAKERThe only problem there is that then you're eating up SATA channels that you would ideally

1:26:08SPEAKERlike to use for more large drives.

1:26:10SPEAKERWell, so I think that there's one that the one that they recommend is actually a USB

1:26:14SPEAKERdevice that plugs into the USB header on the motherboard.

1:26:17SPEAKEROh, interesting.

1:26:18SPEAKERI'll I'll look and see.

1:26:19SPEAKERYeah, I'll be curious about that.

1:26:21SPEAKERI'll dig up the I bought one on Amazon.

1:26:23SPEAKERI'll I'll figure out what it is.

1:26:23SPEAKERIt's been working well for me so far.

1:26:25SPEAKEROK, cool.

1:26:25SPEAKERSo I guess that's it for us.

1:26:27SPEAKEROK, unless you have anything else.

1:26:29SPEAKERTech probably probably rambled enough about stuff for one week.

1:26:31SPEAKERBrad, we made a tech pod as always.

1:26:33SPEAKERI am incredibly flattered that anybody wants to listen to all of these endless ramblings.

1:26:39SPEAKERIt's been really fun.

1:26:40SPEAKERIt's like usually you don't get to dig deep in stuff, so I really enjoy it.

1:26:45SPEAKERI think the format format is good.

1:26:46SPEAKERWe'd love to hear what you think, though.

1:26:49SPEAKERiTunes reviews are always welcome, positive or negative.

1:26:51SPEAKERWe're we're just reviews are nice.

1:26:53SPEAKERYeah, actually, the number one thing I would love to hear from people is just topic suggestions.

1:26:57SPEAKERWe're getting a lot of them.

1:26:58SPEAKERI don't know if you're we're getting them on Twitter.

1:27:01SPEAKERPeople have emailed in quite a few good ones.

1:27:02SPEAKERI've been adding them to the list as we get going.

1:27:06SPEAKERMy favorite one.

1:27:07SPEAKEROh, God, I can't remember what it was now.

1:27:09SPEAKERI don't think I can.

1:27:09SPEAKERI'm not going to say it so that we don't have to do it if we don't want to.

1:27:12SPEAKERBut yeah, we've had a lot of we've had a lot of good topic suggestions.

1:27:16SPEAKERWe've had a lot of good feedback and would love to hear what you think about this.

1:27:20SPEAKERThe very first episode we recorded, I think on a Sunday afternoon.

1:27:24SPEAKERYeah, I'm Will Smith on Twitter.

1:27:26SPEAKERIf you want to reach me.

1:27:27SPEAKERYes, I am Brad Shearmaker.

1:27:28SPEAKERWe will see you all next week.

1:27:30SPEAKERBye, everybody.

1:27:30SPEAKERByeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

1:28:00SPEAKERyou