300: Never Stop Talking

00:00SPEAKERYou know that saying, "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away"?

00:03SPEAKERYeah, it has to, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06SPEAKERIt's like when I gained, when my wife lost weight, I gained weight.

00:10SPEAKERThat's how that works, right?

00:11SPEAKERYeah.

00:12SPEAKERYeah.

00:13SPEAKERTook it from her and gave it to you.

00:14SPEAKERYeah.

00:15SPEAKERMaybe a couple days after we got that new refrigerator installed last week.

00:20SPEAKERYour garage fridge.

00:21SPEAKERYeah.

00:22SPEAKERI mean, it's a kitchen fridge in our case, but it's garage ready just in case.

00:25SPEAKEROkay.

00:26SPEAKERThe dishwasher started emitting some rather concerning sounds.

00:30SPEAKERHold on.

00:31SPEAKERDidn't you have a period of time like last year when the dishwasher didn't work at all?

00:34SPEAKERThis dishwasher is less than two years old.

00:36SPEAKERThat seems bad.

00:37SPEAKEROh.

00:38SPEAKERYeah.

00:39SPEAKERSo you call your landlord?

00:40SPEAKERNot yet.

00:41SPEAKERIt's still working.

00:42SPEAKERIt was just...

00:43SPEAKEROh, no.

00:44SPEAKERJust going to let it rot.

00:45SPEAKERNo.

00:46SPEAKERI mean, I don't know how dire the situation is.

00:49SPEAKERIt's definitely a new sound.

00:50SPEAKERYeah.

00:51SPEAKERIt could indicate an issue with the pump motor from what I've looked at online.

00:54SPEAKERYeah.

00:55SPEAKERAnd so far it has come and gone enough that I'm not a hundred percent sure that's what

00:58SPEAKERit is.

00:59SPEAKERLike we just ran another cycle right before this podcast and it was mostly quiet.

01:03SPEAKERHave you cleaned the filter?

01:05SPEAKERYeah.

01:06SPEAKERWe clean the filter regularly.

01:07SPEAKEROkay.

01:08SPEAKERI ask that because sometimes like when our dishwasher started making noise, when I was

01:11SPEAKERon a trip one time, I asked my wife if she cleaned the filter and she was like, there's

01:15SPEAKERa filter?

01:16SPEAKERWhat filter?

01:17SPEAKERYeah.

01:18SPEAKERAnd I was like, oh, sweet Jesus.

01:19SPEAKERSo I'm the one who does that, I guess.

01:20SPEAKERIt's not that dire, but I did look up like LG dishwasher buzzing sound and found a whole

01:24SPEAKERlot of people talking about the pump motor going out on those things like pretty quickly.

01:28SPEAKERSo I had this experience with my Bosch dishwasher.

01:31SPEAKERLet's see.

01:33SPEAKERWe bought the Bosch dishwasher right around the time my daughter was born.

01:36SPEAKERSo that would have been like 2013.

01:38SPEAKERYeah.

01:39SPEAKERThat's a while.

01:40SPEAKERAnd it started making a bad noise when she was still in bottles.

01:44SPEAKERSo that would have been when she was less than two probably.

01:46SPEAKEROkay.

01:47SPEAKERAnd the warranty had expired a year into that.

01:51SPEAKERSo it was about six months after the warranty expired.

01:55SPEAKERAnd I called the people that sold it to us and they were like, well, you didn't buy the

01:58SPEAKERextended warranty.

01:59SPEAKERI was like, Nope, you're right.

02:00SPEAKERI didn't buy the extended warranty.

02:02SPEAKERAnd so then I called an appliance repair guy who came out and was like, oh yeah, no, just

02:06SPEAKERbuy a new dishwasher.

02:07SPEAKERWow.

02:08SPEAKERAnd I was like, well, why?

02:09SPEAKERHe's like, dishwashers are an enormous pain in the ass to work on.

02:12SPEAKERAnd I said, oh, okay.

02:14SPEAKERAnd he said, but like, if you want to do it, it's either this or that.

02:19SPEAKERAnd both the parts are right next to each other, you got to disassemble the entire thing

02:22SPEAKERto get to them.

02:24SPEAKERAnd one part is $10 and the other one's $250.

02:26SPEAKERAnd the only way to tell which one it is, is if you take it all the way apart and then

02:31SPEAKERput it all the way back together with one part, but not the other one.

02:34SPEAKERAnd I was like, okay, this sounds bad.

02:37SPEAKERSo I went on Amazon and the $250 part was only $125 and the $25 part was only $15.

02:43SPEAKERAnd I was like, well, worst case, if it doesn't work, I'll rip it back out, take those parts

02:47SPEAKERout and send them back to Amazon.

02:49SPEAKERSo it's an experiment.

02:50SPEAKERAnd what have I lost?

02:51SPEAKERA couple of hours of work.

02:53SPEAKERIt was a two day process to get that thing out.

02:59SPEAKERGet it drained.

03:00SPEAKERI mean, getting it drained, getting out wasn't actually that hard.

03:03SPEAKERGetting the thing taken apart and flipped over enough that I could take it apart.

03:07SPEAKERLike it was the most difficult to disassemble thing I have ever taken apart, including like

03:12SPEAKERarcade cabinets and pinball machines and all sorts of heavy, bulky, awful things.

03:17SPEAKEREndless numbers of PCs, of course.

03:19SPEAKERYeah, PCs is a piece of cake.

03:20SPEAKERThat's like Lego.

03:21SPEAKERBut yeah, it was a huge pain in the ass.

03:25SPEAKERBy the time I got it apart, I was like, I'm just putting both of these parts in.

03:28SPEAKERI don't care which one it is because I'm putting it back together and it better worked by God.

03:33SPEAKERI took it, I put it back together.

03:34SPEAKERIt worked.

03:35SPEAKERI plugged it back in and it's been fine for the last 10 years.

03:37SPEAKERWow.

03:38SPEAKERNo kidding.

03:39SPEAKERThat was a bosh.

03:40SPEAKERThat was a bosh.

03:41SPEAKERWell, well done.

03:42SPEAKERI suppose.

03:43SPEAKERLook, after your controversial statements about ice makers and in fridge water dispensing

03:46SPEAKERlast week, there was an extended conversation about whether dishwashers were a luxury that

03:52SPEAKERwas followed up by words from the dishwasher lobby, which is dishwasher save water and

03:57SPEAKERenergy because they're much more efficient than washing dishes by hand.

04:00SPEAKERIt's true.

04:01SPEAKERSo yeah.

04:02SPEAKEROr at least so I'm told.

04:03SPEAKERI've always wondered exactly on what scales they're measuring.

04:06SPEAKERI mean, the water use makes sense, but the energy use I'm not so clear on.

04:10SPEAKERLook, big dishwashers paid off the right people at Energy Star.

04:13SPEAKERThat's all I'm saying.

04:14SPEAKERClearly.

04:15SPEAKERI mean, it doesn't make sense unless they're talking about energy used to purify the water

04:18SPEAKERor to, you know, treat the water that you're using to wash your dishes with maybe because

04:21SPEAKERotherwise I'm not sure where the energy comes in to the washing dishes by hand process.

04:26SPEAKERI mean, there's an energy cost to making water safe to go in the pipes for potable use.

04:31SPEAKERRight.

04:32SPEAKERSo yeah, that's, that's probably it, but the upshot is dishwashers rock.

04:37SPEAKERI'm sorry about your dishwasher.

04:38SPEAKERWell, fingers crossed.

04:39SPEAKERMake your landlord get a new one.

04:41SPEAKERDon't do your own research this time.

04:42SPEAKERYeah.

04:43SPEAKEROkay.

04:44SPEAKERYeah.

04:45SPEAKERDon't let him let it sit this time.

04:46SPEAKERLike you'd like the last time.

04:47SPEAKERCause it was like a year before he fixed it the last time I can't go back to washing dishes

04:50SPEAKERby hand.

04:51SPEAKERNo, no.

04:52SPEAKERIf you, if you do that, just get a big stack of paper plates and dump them at his door

04:57SPEAKERevery day.

04:58SPEAKERHere we go.

04:59SPEAKERBe like, Hey, here's your plates.

05:00SPEAKERI'm going to, can I use your dishwasher?

05:03SPEAKERNow that's renting.

05:32SPEAKERWelcome to the 301st spectacular episode of Brad and Will Made a Tech Pot.

05:39SPEAKERI'm Will.

05:40SPEAKERDude, you're blowing kayfabe.

05:41SPEAKERI am Brad.

05:42SPEAKERWhat?

05:43SPEAKERThis is the 301st episode.

05:45SPEAKEREpisode 300, the 301st episode spectacular.

05:47SPEAKER300th is what it says on the 10.

05:50SPEAKERBut I'm just saying it's the 301st episode because we had episode zero.

05:53SPEAKEREpisode zero doesn't count because it's not a real, zero is not a real number.

05:56SPEAKERWell, it's a real number.

05:57SPEAKERZero is a real number.

05:58SPEAKERIt's not a, okay.

05:59SPEAKERDon't bring your pseudo math science in here.

06:02SPEAKERThis isn't the department of health and human services.

06:04SPEAKERWe believe in math.

06:05SPEAKERLet's not engage the, there are a couple of, I don't know if mathematician is the right

06:10SPEAKERword, but there are definitely a couple of people on the discord who are like deep into

06:13SPEAKERthe world of mathematics and I do not want to engage a discussion about real numbers

06:18SPEAKERand so forth.

06:19SPEAKERSo, so what I want to know is I think we actually have a couple of episodes in there.

06:25SPEAKERI think we have a couple of unnumbered number episodes in there too, that we did like bonuses

06:29SPEAKERand stuff.

06:30SPEAKERAre you sure?

06:31SPEAKERThat's actually the 303rd or 304th episode.

06:34SPEAKERThose do not get counted though, I believe.

06:37SPEAKERBy who?

06:38SPEAKERBy simple cast or by us.

06:40SPEAKERYeah.

06:41SPEAKERI'm looking at one right now.

06:43SPEAKERI put those in there as special episodes.

06:46SPEAKERSpecial ep.

06:47SPEAKEROh, okay.

06:48SPEAKERThank God.

06:49SPEAKERThe most recent one being October 30th, 2022 entitled, don't pull the frenulum.

06:54SPEAKERI think that's a patron episode.

06:57SPEAKERThat's a patron episode.

06:58SPEAKERYeah.

06:59SPEAKERThat was a patron episode.

07:00SPEAKEROof.

07:01SPEAKERThat was a long time ago.

07:02SPEAKEROh, that was when I had COVID.

07:04SPEAKERYeah.

07:05SPEAKERI'm, I'm, I'm, I'm triple checking here just for housekeeping reasons.

07:08SPEAKERI want to make absolutely sure, but as far as I can tell, they're the simple, simple

07:11SPEAKERcast does not put an episode number on those.

07:14SPEAKEROkay.

07:15SPEAKERSo if I loaded up a feed reader, it would tell me how many episodes are on the feed.

07:18SPEAKERI'm comparing here.

07:19SPEAKERSo yes, the, the, the 300 number is accurate.

07:22SPEAKERI can confirm right now that this is in fact not counting episode zero, the origin story

07:27SPEAKERepisode.

07:28SPEAKERA real episode of the podcast.

07:29SPEAKEROh, you're right.

07:30SPEAKERThat was a real 47 minute episode where we talked about our first PCs and stuff first

07:34SPEAKERPC builds, but yeah, but other than that, this is in fact the 300th episode by official

07:38SPEAKERreckoning.

07:39SPEAKERIt's been a long time, Brad, since we sat down and at your kitchen table with a, with

07:44SPEAKERa zoom H5 inexplicably, I don't know why it's called an H5 since it has six audio inputs

07:51SPEAKERon it, but they also start counting from zero.

07:54SPEAKERYeah.

07:55SPEAKERThat's probably it.

08:01SPEAKERHoly crap.

08:02SPEAKERI didn't know those funny, but all right.

08:04SPEAKERThat is to be clear.

08:05SPEAKERThat is absolutely not the same people that make zoom the software, right?

08:09SPEAKERNo different, different company.

08:10SPEAKERYeah.

08:11SPEAKERDifferent companies.

08:12SPEAKERYeah.

08:13SPEAKERSo we sat down with a pair of headsets in a zoom H5 van and recorded an episode.

08:19SPEAKERI guess it was, it was, it was the one that was the TV episode, right?

08:22SPEAKERIt was like the screens episode.

08:24SPEAKERI'm looking now.

08:25SPEAKERIt looks like that we ran that as episode six.

08:27SPEAKERI don't know why we did that, but apparently the first episode we ever recorded, we held

08:32SPEAKERfor like a month and a half.

08:33SPEAKERWell, so we recorded a bunch, we recorded a bunch of episodes before we posted anything

08:37SPEAKERbecause we kind of wanted to get the rhythm.

08:39SPEAKERYeah.

08:40SPEAKERAnd I think also because you were having to drive up here, weren't we doing like two episodes

08:43SPEAKERat a time?

08:44SPEAKERWe would do two at a time and do it every other week.

08:47SPEAKERYeah.

08:49SPEAKERSo anyway, it's been six years, man.

08:51SPEAKERIt is, yeah, shorts a month, I think like a month will be by calendar reckoning six

08:57SPEAKERyears.

08:58SPEAKERYeah.

08:59SPEAKERYeah.

09:00SPEAKERBut as the podcast flies, three episodes, six years, huh?

09:02SPEAKERPretty much.

09:03SPEAKERI mean, if we ever took weeks off, if we took two, if we took the traditional United States,

09:08SPEAKERtwo weeks a month, two weeks a year off, 300 episodes would be exactly six years.

09:12SPEAKERYeah.

09:13SPEAKERWe've kind of never taken a break or taken this podcast off other than those weeks where

09:16SPEAKERone of us is unavailable and we have to run an old episode, which has not been that many.

09:20SPEAKERI think we've only done a couple of those.

09:21SPEAKERYeah.

09:22SPEAKERI can tell you right now.

09:23SPEAKERWhen you had COVID, I think when I had COVID, you might've gotten a guest when I had COVID

09:27SPEAKERthough.

09:28SPEAKERI think I see maybe four of those, three or four.

09:34SPEAKERWe've only done that three or four times.

09:36SPEAKERThat's not too many, Brad.

09:37SPEAKERNo, no, it's not.

09:38SPEAKERYeah.

09:39SPEAKERYeah.

09:40SPEAKERYou know, it's the hallmark of every great podcast is extreme consistency.

09:44SPEAKERYes.

09:45SPEAKERQuantity over quality.

09:47SPEAKERJust, you know, we're here every week, whether you want us or not, talking about nonsense.

09:54SPEAKERThat's the podcasting motto.

09:55SPEAKERIt doesn't matter what you've got to say.

09:56SPEAKERJust keep saying it.

09:57SPEAKERJust never stop talking.

09:58SPEAKERNever stop.

09:59SPEAKERNever stopping.

10:00SPEAKERNo, I, so, okay.

10:02SPEAKERSo a couple of things have changed obviously since we sat down at the dining room table

10:07SPEAKERand recorded.

10:08SPEAKERYeah.

10:09SPEAKERI think that, you know, that would be, that would be true of any random six year span.

10:14SPEAKERSome more than others.

10:15SPEAKERI'm going to say.

10:16SPEAKERIn a particular six year span, let's say quite a lot.

10:19SPEAKERYeah.

10:20SPEAKERIt's I mean, look at the time there was, you know, I just, I think we're going to go through

10:26SPEAKERa lot of the stuff that we were going to talk about stuff that's changed.

10:29SPEAKERYeah.

10:30SPEAKERLike we've, we looked back at our list of 300 episodes and talked about like, should

10:32SPEAKERwe rank our favorite episodes?

10:34SPEAKERShould we rank our favorite titles?

10:35SPEAKERShould we just retrospect in some way?

10:37SPEAKERBut instead of talking about our show, which feels weird and navel gazing even for us,

10:42SPEAKERI mean, I would have done it if I, we just, I think we didn't quite land on the, on the

10:45SPEAKERright.

10:46SPEAKERLook, I mean the 308th, 318th episode is just around the corner.

10:51SPEAKERSo if people want a 318th episode spectacular, then they can start nominating their favorite

10:56SPEAKERepisodes.

10:57SPEAKERAnd we, we will like, honestly, 300 episodes is enough that I didn't want to have to go

11:04SPEAKERback through 300 episodes to pick my favorites.

11:07SPEAKERYeah.

11:08SPEAKERYep.

11:09SPEAKERBecause it's too hard.

11:10SPEAKERReally.

11:11SPEAKERThey're all my favorites at the end of the day.

11:12SPEAKERSo instead we're going to talk about things that have changed in the last six years since

11:15SPEAKERwe started this podcast.

11:16SPEAKERYeah.

11:17SPEAKERLike in 2019, you couldn't buy a lot of PC hardware because all the crypto people were

11:22SPEAKERbuying up the video cards to mine Ethereum.

11:25SPEAKERI'd remember that.

11:26SPEAKERYeah.

11:27SPEAKERNow it's all the AI people buying up video cards to mine AI tokens.

11:30SPEAKERYeah.

11:31SPEAKERI mean, I think we should probably say at the top here, we're not going to make a bullet

11:34SPEAKERpoint out of COVID necessarily.

11:35SPEAKERI mean, obviously that is like the biggest change that has happened in the last six years.

11:40SPEAKERThere's a bullet point in there for CRISPR and mRNA vaccines.

11:43SPEAKERWhat I mean is like, I think that change is too pervasive.

11:46SPEAKERThat is too like all encompassing.

11:48SPEAKEROh, that's quite true.

11:50SPEAKERGlobally to say, oh, that's just another change that happened.

11:52SPEAKERI mean like that kind of.

11:53SPEAKERYeah.

11:54SPEAKERCompletely up in society for two to five years, depending on how you look at it.

11:59SPEAKERLike that changed everything for a period of time and still continues to make ripples

12:02SPEAKERthere.

12:03SPEAKERSo like a lot of the stuff we'll talk about here might be related to the COVID experience.

12:06SPEAKERWe did have a bullet point on here for pandemic and the decline of Western civilization.

12:10SPEAKERYeah.

12:11SPEAKERI'm not sure how much time we want to spend on that one.

12:13SPEAKEROkay.

12:14SPEAKERWell, okay.

12:15SPEAKERHere's, here's one.

12:16SPEAKERNow we have person flavored Oreos.

12:19SPEAKEROkay.

12:21SPEAKERThat is a change that has happened.

12:22SPEAKERYes.

12:23SPEAKERLike it used to be like, we hadn't reached the stage in late stage cat.

12:26SPEAKERLike I liked, I like to, I have in my head, I've never really talked about this, but in

12:30SPEAKERmy head, I index the state of where we are in terms of late stage capitalism with how

12:37SPEAKERbig the Oreo section is at my grocery store.

12:40SPEAKEROkay.

12:41SPEAKERThat's probably a good barometer.

12:43SPEAKERAnd like, you know, we had like the independence day Oreos a few years ago, which were you

12:50SPEAKERknow, normal Oreos, but with pop rocks in there.

12:53SPEAKERThat was pretty good.

12:54SPEAKERThat was.

12:55SPEAKERWait, were those good?

12:56SPEAKERI thought those sounded awful.

12:57SPEAKERYeah, those were pretty good.

12:58SPEAKERNo, no, they were good.

12:59SPEAKEROreos are chocolate.

13:00SPEAKERIt's like chocolate and sort of quasi vanilla filling though.

13:01SPEAKERI can't imagine mixing fruit into that.

13:04SPEAKERThey're not, they're not fruit flavored pop rocks.

13:06SPEAKERIt's just texture.

13:07SPEAKEROh, interesting.

13:08SPEAKEROkay.

13:09SPEAKERI mean, it's just indeterminate sweet and, and like things are happening on your tongue

13:13SPEAKERwhen your tongue hits the goo, it was, it was, it was, I'm going to tell you pretty

13:17SPEAKERgood experience.

13:18SPEAKERThings are happening on your tongue when your tongue hits the goo.

13:21SPEAKERThat's correct.

13:22SPEAKERYeah.

13:23SPEAKERSo recently now we have Selena Gomez flavored Oreos and also Post Malone flavored Oreos,

13:29SPEAKERwhich I don't understand why.

13:30SPEAKERI don't think so, man.

13:31SPEAKERYeah.

13:32SPEAKERI mean, some are, some of these products are more appealing than others, I guess.

13:35SPEAKERYeah.

13:36SPEAKERI never would have guessed that Google was going to destroy its dominant web ad business

13:41SPEAKERto chase AI.

13:43SPEAKERIs that how you would, okay, I want to hear this argument, would you say that's how this

13:47SPEAKERhas gone down?

13:48SPEAKERWell, so there's a lot of traffic, there's a, you know, in the old days people made content

13:52SPEAKERon the web and they made it freely available and they let Google make a full copy of their,

13:58SPEAKERof their web content so that they could then, so that Google would then index that.

14:04SPEAKERAnd when people search about things that might be relevant to that web content, they would

14:07SPEAKERsend those searchers to the, to their pages and you'd click on a link in your Google results

14:11SPEAKERand the person on the other end of that transaction would get a little bit of ad revenue or an

14:17SPEAKERopportunity to sign them up for some, some subscription service or you know, the CGI

14:23SPEAKERbin counter at the bottom of their blog would go up by one and they'd be like, hell yeah,

14:28SPEAKERone more person read something I wrote.

14:30SPEAKERThat's awesome.

14:31SPEAKERAnd I, I, not too long ago I went and read about what CGI bin actually was and how it

14:36SPEAKERworked.

14:37SPEAKERI have no idea what it was.

14:38SPEAKERAnd it made me really sad that I missed that era of web development and web hosting.

14:42SPEAKEROh, you could have been right there.

14:43SPEAKERYou were, you were primed.

14:44SPEAKERLike the stuff they were doing back then in the nineties is the stuff I would have cared

14:47SPEAKERabout.

14:48SPEAKERLike that's where you could basically write any program in any language and just kind of

14:50SPEAKERrun it in the course of your page running and have it dump the results into the page.

14:54SPEAKERThat sounds like a terrible idea for a lot of reasons, but also pretty good.

14:59SPEAKERSo anyway, now instead of sending people to Google pages, to the, to the search results

15:04SPEAKERpage, Google just takes the top results and kind of summarizes them with its shitty AI

15:11SPEAKERand puts it right at the top of the page above any of the results where nobody, no normal

15:15SPEAKERpeople look at it.

15:16SPEAKERCause they're like, you know what?

15:17SPEAKERI really love letting computers think for me more.

15:21SPEAKERAnd the web traffic is declining precipitously across a lot of publishers to the point that

15:26SPEAKERwe're going to see a lot more subscription offerings for the people who actually like

15:30SPEAKERto read stuff on the internet that hasn't been munged up and baby birded into the content

15:36SPEAKERform at the top of a search results page.

15:39SPEAKERI mean, it turns out a lot of people seem to in fact like for computers to do the thinking

15:44SPEAKERfor them.

15:45SPEAKERI mean, I think a lot of people don't like to think is the fundamental, like maybe that's

15:49SPEAKERthe grim way to think about this.

15:52SPEAKERWay too accurate.

15:53SPEAKERThat is way too true.

15:54SPEAKERThinking is hard, Brad.

15:55SPEAKERIt sure is.

15:57SPEAKERSo yeah.

15:58SPEAKERSo I didn't, I didn't expect them to do that.

16:00SPEAKERI wouldn't, if you had said in 2019, when we started this podcast that Google was going

16:03SPEAKERto completely destroy web ads, I'd be like, no, no way.

16:06SPEAKERI mean, are we there yet?

16:08SPEAKERThey're working on it.

16:09SPEAKERYou think?

16:10SPEAKERTrending that way for sure.

16:11SPEAKERIs it inevitable?

16:12SPEAKERI don't think it's inevitable.

16:13SPEAKERI mean, it depends on when the AI crash happens, right?

16:16SPEAKERYeah.

16:17SPEAKERYeah.

16:18SPEAKERI think that's probably inevitable at this point.

16:19SPEAKERIt feels like probably there's just so much, I mean, I know VC is propping it up, but there

16:24SPEAKERhas to be so, so much VC still being pumped into it.

16:26SPEAKERAt this point, it's not even VC.

16:28SPEAKERIt's like, it's like banks and, and you're like sure.

16:35SPEAKERGovernment funds, right?

16:36SPEAKERAnd estimates generally, let's say not even just venture capital, giant companies, trillion

16:41SPEAKERdollar companies are propping it up at this point.

16:43SPEAKERSo what did I, did I see Nvidia is responsible for 8% of something?

16:47SPEAKERI don't know.

16:48SPEAKERIt can't be market capitalization.

16:49SPEAKERI don't know what it, what number I was going around.

16:51SPEAKERI saw that Nvidia claims 8% of.

16:54SPEAKERThe thing I saw the other day is that the, the GDP of the country, like the biggest contributor

17:01SPEAKERto that in the last quarter was data center building and AI data center building, which

17:05SPEAKERis like more than home building and business stuff and a bunch of other things.

17:10SPEAKERRight.

17:11SPEAKERSo, I mean, when you, when you talk about, when you talk about that collapse being inevitable,

17:14SPEAKERyou might well be right, but there's so much money still being pumped into it that it seems

17:17SPEAKERlike it's probably a ways off.

17:19SPEAKERI mean, eventually the money will stop.

17:21SPEAKERI feel like GPT-5 rolling out and, Hey, did you ever think we were, we talk about a thing

17:26SPEAKERcalled GPT?

17:27SPEAKERUh, no, um, um, GPT-5 rolling out and being worse than the previous ones, uh, has, has

17:36SPEAKERnot been good for AI futures, it seems like.

17:39SPEAKERIs it worse by some objective measure?

17:41SPEAKERPeople are generally, um, it's, you know, it's the normal thing where people cherry

17:46SPEAKERpick examples of things that are, that it's really spectacularly bad at, like drawing

17:51SPEAKERa map of the United States and putting the state names in places.

17:54SPEAKERI do.

17:55SPEAKERI I'll check in on like the Twitter for you feed just every so often.

17:59SPEAKERI don't know why I do that to myself, but just to see what people in that world are

18:02SPEAKERsaying.

18:03SPEAKERAnd yeah, I did.

18:04SPEAKERI feel like I did see some pretty underwhelming takes on or underwhelmed takes, I should say

18:10SPEAKERon, on, on that thing when it landed one, one thing I got the sense of was that they

18:16SPEAKERtuned it.

18:17SPEAKERSo it maybe doesn't kiss the user's ass nearly as much.

18:19SPEAKERI bet that change is going to get rolled back though, because it seems like people don't

18:23SPEAKERlike that much.

18:24SPEAKERMy understanding is they already have rolled it back or as, as I understood it.

18:28SPEAKERI feel like the ass kissing is a feature, not a bug.

18:30SPEAKERI would, a hundred percent is.

18:32SPEAKERYeah.

18:33SPEAKERUm, real, real quick before we move on, I think I've advocated this before.

18:35SPEAKERDo you use a, um, do you use a custom, well, I don't know, you don't use Google at all

18:39SPEAKERanymore, right?

18:40SPEAKERNo, I use Google.

18:41SPEAKERI use the UTF 14 thing or whatever it is.

18:44SPEAKERUDM I think it is.

18:46SPEAKERUDM.

18:47SPEAKEROkay.

18:48SPEAKERWe do the exact same thing.

18:49SPEAKERI have an extension that makes that my default search in Firefox actually.

18:52SPEAKEROkay.

18:53SPEAKERI just, I just went in and made a custom search engine in, uh, in Chrome, which also I still

18:59SPEAKERneed to get off of Chrome.

19:00SPEAKERI don't know why I'm still on Chrome.

19:02SPEAKERYeah.

19:03SPEAKERIt's not a switch.

19:04SPEAKERNot using, I'll tell you the browser switch was easy.

19:06SPEAKERSo since we did this podcast, I switched from using Chrome to Firefox.

19:09SPEAKEROkay.

19:10SPEAKERYeah.

19:11SPEAKERThere you go.

19:12SPEAKERYeah.

19:13SPEAKERIt wasn't that hard.

19:14SPEAKERIt was just video calls, conferencing and stuff like that because Chrome handles that

19:17SPEAKERstuff better generally.

19:18SPEAKERYeah.

19:19SPEAKERThat might be the thing to do.

19:20SPEAKERAnd in fact, like I'm probably delusional if I think I can completely uninstall Chrome

19:22SPEAKERbecause you're going to have to have it for something at some point that only works with

19:26SPEAKERChrome.

19:27SPEAKERI think you could do chromium or one of the other chromium offshoots probably.

19:30SPEAKERYou're probably right.

19:31SPEAKERAnyway, real quick thing.

19:32SPEAKERI was gonna say, I won't walk through all the steps here, but if you probably go search,

19:35SPEAKERif you still use Google, you can go search for how to get Google results without the

19:39SPEAKERAI summary at the top.

19:42SPEAKERYeah.

19:43SPEAKERIt's just adding a switch to the search string or not a switch, like an argument.

19:47SPEAKERIt's just a question mark UDM equals 14 I think is all you have to put on.

19:51SPEAKEROr in this case, if you've already got another argument before that is ampersand, but it's

19:54SPEAKERliterally just ampersand UDM equals 14 on your Google search string and you will get

20:00SPEAKERclassic Google search results without AI crap.

20:03SPEAKERThere are also extensions for both Chrome and Firefox that do this and make it very

20:07SPEAKEReasy to set up so you don't have to fool with anything if you're worried about it.

20:10SPEAKERI don't think there's a downside to using those.

20:15SPEAKERShould we talk about AI?

20:16SPEAKERCause I feel like all the scammy Valley bros moving from blockchain to AI was not something

20:21SPEAKERI would have predicted.

20:22SPEAKEROkay.

20:23SPEAKERSo September, 2019 is when we posted the first episode, but crypto like crypto mining was

20:28SPEAKERin absolutely full swing by that point.

20:30SPEAKERRight?

20:31SPEAKERWell, so Bitcoin was already done on PCs and they were using dedicated mining bricks by

20:35SPEAKERthat by then, like, well before the, by the time the 10 80 came out in 2016 or 2017, the

20:42SPEAKERBitcoin mining on PCs was essentially done, but the gold rush had been around for years

20:47SPEAKERat this point.

20:48SPEAKERRight?

20:49SPEAKERYeah.

20:50SPEAKERBut Ethereum mining was super hot and you would buy a GPU and burn it out basically

20:54SPEAKERin mine, you know, a five X or 10 X, the amount of Ethereum that the GPU cost you and the

21:01SPEAKERpower presumably.

21:02SPEAKERBut I mean, I feel like some of the people doing that stuff maybe didn't fully appreciate

21:06SPEAKERthe problem.

21:07SPEAKERThe real thing that it did was it drove up the prices of GPU's.

21:10SPEAKERWe went from having a $600, 10 80 TI or $700, 10 80 TI to you know, $2,000, 40, 90 and even

21:20SPEAKERhigher for the five series cards.

21:22SPEAKERYeah.

21:23SPEAKERYeah.

21:24SPEAKERBut anyway, I mean the way you phrased it in the notes here is that all these scammy

21:27SPEAKERvalley bros have moved from crypto mining to AI at this point.

21:32SPEAKERWell, just to be clear, the difference is, so there are people doing fundamental research

21:39SPEAKERin AI and machine learning that are doing really neat stuff.

21:42SPEAKERLike, I generally think that like using machine learning to process data at large scale is

21:49SPEAKERan incredibly powerful technology.

21:51SPEAKEROr even, even in the micro for end views or applications, stuff like DLSS, we talk about

21:56SPEAKERall the time.

21:57SPEAKERThere's all kinds of like data stream processing applications.

22:00SPEAKERTranscription and image analysis for radiology and stuff like that.

22:07SPEAKERThere's a bunch of really useful technologies.

22:10SPEAKERThe generative AI stuff I think is generally pretty garbage and there's been a fair amount

22:15SPEAKERof research that shows it's actually making people stupider.

22:17SPEAKERSo you know, maybe this problem will solve itself over the next few years.

22:23SPEAKERSo yeah, that's that.

22:25SPEAKERWe had a brief stop with pictures of monkeys that cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars.

22:30SPEAKERYeah.

22:31SPEAKERSo detour through NFTs somewhere in there.

22:33SPEAKERYeah.

22:34SPEAKERBut here we are.

22:35SPEAKERAnd now, now it's all AI all the time.

22:37SPEAKERI think, I think for me, the scammy stuff is the Ed Zitron over at, at Better Offline.

22:45SPEAKERThe Better Offline podcast talks about this stuff a lot.

22:48SPEAKERIt's the businesses that are being built on top of other people's AI models that are assuming

22:53SPEAKERthe cost of those AI models is going to go down instead of up.

22:58SPEAKERAnd because they're expecting to see the same kind of scaling that we saw with like online

23:02SPEAKERstorage and, and you know, the cost of hosting a web server and stuff like that.

23:07SPEAKERLike if you look at the cost of hosting a web server in 1996, when you had to run on

23:10SPEAKERa Sun Microsystems machine, because that was the only hardware that ran a web stack to

23:16SPEAKERnow, I guess it was probably '94, but anyway, like those costs, the costs for AI token generation

23:24SPEAKERare not going to go down in the same way.

23:26SPEAKERAnd it's really, really apparent that that's the case and, and large swaths of the industry

23:31SPEAKERare still acting like it is.

23:32SPEAKERAnyway.

23:33SPEAKERBut you fake it till you make it.

23:35SPEAKEROr just, you know, piss away an incredible amount of money.

23:38SPEAKERAnd then we're going to have, we're going to have enormous data centers filled with

23:42SPEAKERcompute and absolutely nothing to run on those machines.

23:46SPEAKERSo come up with a business that can use that.

23:49SPEAKERYeah.

23:50SPEAKERMake a billion dollars.

23:51SPEAKEROr, or good for those of us who just like to buy random hardware that used to be in

23:54SPEAKERthe data center, put it in a, put in a server in your house to have fun with.

23:57SPEAKERYeah.

23:58SPEAKERBut, but no, for real, if you have an idea for a business that'll use a shitload of compute,

24:02SPEAKERcall me I'm available.

24:03SPEAKERYeah.

24:04SPEAKERUm, we should probably, we should touch on this one.

24:06SPEAKERThis is kind of related to what we were just talking about.

24:08SPEAKERYou can, you can kind of get hardware again.

24:11SPEAKERAt MSRP?

24:12SPEAKERWell, yes.

24:13SPEAKERAnd no.

24:14SPEAKERIsh.

24:15SPEAKERNot GPUs.

24:16SPEAKERYeah.

24:17SPEAKEREverything else pretty much is though, right?

24:18SPEAKERLike CPU's, motherboards, stuff like that.

24:20SPEAKERLike Ram is generally, it's not getting super inflated the way the GPU's are these days,

24:25SPEAKERright?

24:26SPEAKERUh, depends.

24:27SPEAKERIt's up and down.

24:28SPEAKERI haven't lied.

24:29SPEAKERIt's been almost two years since I built this machine.

24:30SPEAKERSo I haven't looked at prices in a while or tracked them.

24:33SPEAKERSo I'm looking at 50, 90 prices at Micro Center in Santa Clara right now.

24:38SPEAKERI can't close the little pop-up that tells me there's a sixth store in Santa Clara, but

24:44SPEAKERa 50 90 is an overclocked one is in stock at 21 99.

24:50SPEAKERThe MSRP for that card is 24 99 because it's an overclocked one.

24:55SPEAKERUm, the, yeah, like, like they're more, let's say they're more available.

25:03SPEAKERSome of these are really expensive.

25:04SPEAKERI think the stuff like the 90 70 XT and 90 70 are probably the more mid range parts are

25:10SPEAKERprobably closer to reality.

25:12SPEAKERYeah.

25:13SPEAKERAnd then the power color 97 DXT, which is a top of the line AMD card for six 99, which

25:20SPEAKERis a hundred bucks off of their MSRP.

25:22SPEAKEROkay.

25:23SPEAKERNot like I'm looking at a 9800 X three D that's four 49 right now, which is I think below

25:27SPEAKERMSRP.

25:28SPEAKERYeah.

25:29SPEAKEROh yeah.

25:30SPEAKERThings are better.

25:31SPEAKERI mean, you can get hardware.

25:33SPEAKERYeah.

25:34SPEAKERThey got way worse in the pandemic, but like you said, even like the graphics cards were

25:36SPEAKERgetting real bad even before that because of the crypto mining, right?

25:39SPEAKERYeah.

25:40SPEAKEREverything was bad during the pandemic.

25:41SPEAKERUm, like a 98, 9800 X three D on the CPU front packaged inbox four 29, 50 bucks off the MSRP

25:50SPEAKERof four 79.

25:51SPEAKERSo yeah, hardware is gettable.

25:54SPEAKERThat's exciting.

25:55SPEAKERThat's a positive change.

25:56SPEAKERIt's kind of the first time that's happened in six years, 10 years almost at this point,

26:01SPEAKERI guess.

26:02SPEAKERIt seems like it's starting to normalize.

26:03SPEAKERFinally.

26:04SPEAKERI mean, and just as that was happening, we introduced a whole shitload of tariffs that

26:06SPEAKERmade everything really complex and wild artificially expensive.

26:11SPEAKERHave fun Europe and Asia for no reason at all.

26:15SPEAKERYou put this one down.

26:16SPEAKERI like this one a lot.

26:18SPEAKERPeople went from loving streaming services to hating them.

26:20SPEAKERYeah.

26:21SPEAKERIt kind of feels like we're there.

26:22SPEAKERRight.

26:23SPEAKERYeah.

26:24SPEAKERI think back to like 2019, I still had a Netflix subscription and some of the others, you know,

26:27SPEAKERlike we're, I think we were, we were probably approaching the point by then where people

26:32SPEAKERwere starting to see some of the shine come off, like the prices were starting to go up.

26:36SPEAKERLike content was getting a little more exclusive and hard to come by.

26:39SPEAKERWell, the prices, the prices didn't start going.

26:42SPEAKERI mean, Netflix was jacked up their prices a couple of times, but they were also dumping

26:45SPEAKERa lot of more original content in.

26:47SPEAKERSo it kind of felt okay.

26:48SPEAKERSure.

26:49SPEAKERI'm trying to, I'm trying to think, I mean, this is kind of splitting hairs.

26:51SPEAKERI mean, you know, we're, we have set this arbitrary beginning point for this thing of

26:56SPEAKER2019.

26:57SPEAKERSo like, I don't remember exactly when this happened, but like the big bellwether for

27:01SPEAKERme was remember the giant content deal Netflix had with Disney for a long time.

27:06SPEAKERAnd then when that went away, I think that was for me, that was the, that was the big

27:10SPEAKERfirst canary in the coal mine of like, oh, wait a minute.

27:13SPEAKERYou're not going to be able to just have one of these services for nine bucks a month and

27:16SPEAKERget everything you want.

27:17SPEAKERAre you like, so oddly Disney plus launched on November 12th, 2019, which was just a few

27:24SPEAKERmonths after that Disney Netflix content deal evaporated.

27:28SPEAKERSo it was right around that point.

27:30SPEAKERWeird.

27:31SPEAKERYeah.

27:32SPEAKERI think the mark is when Disney, like those services started seeing enormous growth during

27:38SPEAKERthe pandemic when we were all locked up at home and had nothing to do, but watch TV and

27:41SPEAKERplay video games.

27:42SPEAKERAnd then they made projections based on the growth that happened during that time.

27:48SPEAKERAnd then they didn't hit their projections.

27:49SPEAKERSo their solution was we should just charge more for these services and let's see how

27:53SPEAKERhigh we can get the prices before people start canceling.

27:56SPEAKERSo they, they tried to boil some frogs.

27:59SPEAKERAnd I think, I mean, like Disney plus is going to be okay.

28:03SPEAKERI think probably Netflix will be okay.

28:06SPEAKERPeacock and Paramount plus, man.

28:07SPEAKERI don't know about you all criteria is the real winner here.

28:11SPEAKERThat's the one that I kind of always have.

28:12SPEAKERIt turns out.

28:13SPEAKERSure.

28:14SPEAKERParamount plus has defied the odds.

28:16SPEAKERMy former employer, but I'm still, I'm still a little bit bitter that I lost my comps Paramount

28:21SPEAKERplus subscription finally.

28:24SPEAKERSo we turn stuff on and off there's new season of Wednesday.

28:27SPEAKERSo I'm paying for Netflix this month and I'm big brothers on, so we're paying for Paramount

28:32SPEAKERplus.

28:33SPEAKERSo that's where does anybody else offer the service?

28:37SPEAKERLike Apple does.

28:38SPEAKERI don't know if they have a name for it, where they let you opt in and out of, or turn on

28:41SPEAKERand off subscriptions entirely from the same Apple interface.

28:45SPEAKERThat's part of the Google phone ecosystem too.

28:48SPEAKERYou pay a little bit of a premium for that.

28:50SPEAKERI think that's probably worth it for the convenience, especially now that people are in a world

28:54SPEAKERwhere they are toggling things on and off a lot, like you're talking about.

28:57SPEAKERI think if you actually do it, then it makes a lot of sense.

29:00SPEAKERIf you don't, then you're just paying Apple 30% more for the convenience of not doing

29:05SPEAKERa thing that you thought you were going to do.

29:06SPEAKERYeah.

29:07SPEAKERThe worst one for me on streaming services worse than the siloing of content across two

29:11SPEAKERdozen different services and worse than the prices going up is, and this is, this is where

29:16SPEAKERI feel like they have maybe overstretched or at least for me is the, is how rotten with

29:19SPEAKERads everything is getting like streaming services were supposed to be the thing where you pay

29:23SPEAKERdirectly.

29:24SPEAKERSo you didn't have to watch ads.

29:25SPEAKERYep.

29:26SPEAKERAnd now they are fucking everywhere.

29:27SPEAKERWell look, Brad, we have the no ad tier and then we've added an ad, an ad supported experience.

29:36SPEAKERThat's a 20% less.

29:38SPEAKERThat's going to wear your ass out with ads.

29:41SPEAKERYup.

29:42SPEAKERYup.

29:43SPEAKERYup.

29:44SPEAKERLet me tell you, a pie hole helps with a lot of that.

29:46SPEAKERYeah.

29:47SPEAKERUm, also sometimes pie hole messes up the ability to play back content on entire platforms.

29:53SPEAKERSo good with the bad breaks YouTube history and stuff like that out of the box.

29:59SPEAKERAnyway, I feel like the streaming service dream is dead.

30:02SPEAKERNow it just sucks the way the cable subscriptions used to suck.

30:06SPEAKERWell, we we've gone back to a time where cable cable sucked for a whole multitude of reasons,

30:14SPEAKERbut the big issue was you had to bundle all of the, like, I, if I didn't care about the

30:18SPEAKERtravel channel, I still had to pay some, some chunk of my subscription went to the travel

30:23SPEAKERchannel every month.

30:25SPEAKERWhen Disney's combining Hulu and Disney plus into one app and it's all one subscription,

30:30SPEAKERthen suddenly I'm in the situation where I'm paying for a bunch of crap on Hulu that I

30:34SPEAKERdon't want or care about in order to get, you know, whatever Disney thing is out now.

30:40SPEAKERI don't even know.

30:41SPEAKERYup.

30:42SPEAKERUm, can we talk about CRISPR?

30:44SPEAKERI think CRISPR is maybe the big science story of this time of this last six years.

30:48SPEAKERCRISPR?

30:49SPEAKERCRISPR is the ability to manipulate DNA directly.

30:53SPEAKEROkay.

30:54SPEAKERThat's about all I know about it.

30:55SPEAKERSo you're going to have to fill in from here.

30:56SPEAKERI mean, that's the important thing.

30:58SPEAKERWe talked about it with Kishore on a science roundup one year at length, but yeah, the

31:03SPEAKERidea is it's a programmatic way to build strands of DNA and proteins from that, which is like,

31:12SPEAKERthat's magical.

31:14SPEAKERSo, and that and MRNA vaccines, which came online with our pandemic crush to get vaccines

31:21SPEAKERout for COVID both are technologies that can reshape public health around the world if

31:28SPEAKERproperly invested in.

31:29SPEAKERYeah.

31:30SPEAKERLet's hope that...

31:31SPEAKERHey, guess what?

31:32SPEAKERWe're not going to properly invest in, Brad.

31:33SPEAKERYeah.

31:34SPEAKERI don't even know how to...

31:35SPEAKERYeah.

31:36SPEAKERWe elected the stupidest people on earth.

31:38SPEAKERSorry.

31:39SPEAKERYeah.

31:40SPEAKERUh, okay.

31:42SPEAKERThat's probably it for that.

31:43SPEAKERYeah.

31:44SPEAKERBut, you know, getting back to streaming services and Google, and I mean, it's kind of ties

31:51SPEAKERinto a lot of, a lot of stuff we already talked about here.

31:55SPEAKERAnd also this is kind of something that kind of hasn't changed or I guess what I'll just

32:00SPEAKERread that I'll read what I wrote here and you can tell me how well this fits here.

32:03SPEAKERNobody has displaced the platforms that were already big in 2019.

32:07SPEAKEROh, you mean like, which platforms?

32:11SPEAKEREverything and everything from, you know, like the, the eight or 10 platforms that most

32:14SPEAKERpeople think of as the internet, you know, everything from YouTube, Facebook, YouTube,

32:18SPEAKERAmazon.

32:19SPEAKERYeah.

32:20SPEAKERFacebook.

32:21SPEAKERThe lesser extent Twitter, I mean, TikTok is, you know, TikTok might be the one example

32:26SPEAKERI know it existed before 2019, but I don't think it really got truly huge until after.

32:30SPEAKERI think TikTok was more for the kids prior to the pandemic.

32:35SPEAKERYeah.

32:36SPEAKERYeah.

32:37SPEAKERAnd also TikTok was kind of sliding into a new niche or slot.

32:40SPEAKERIt's not like nobody was out there doing short form video the way they were right.

32:44SPEAKERLike vine I think was already dead.

32:46SPEAKERVine was dead.

32:47SPEAKERI don't think anybody had really done the infinite scroll short video thing the way

32:52SPEAKERthey had done.

32:53SPEAKERSo they didn't, they didn't so much as a display.

32:55SPEAKERSomebody has just kind of come in and define a new category, but like generally all the

33:00SPEAKERbig social media and video and, and social sites that were huge in 2019 are still the

33:05SPEAKERsame huge ones.

33:06SPEAKERNow.

33:07SPEAKERYeah.

33:08SPEAKERTwitter has declined pretty significantly and Facebook honestly has declined as well.

33:14SPEAKERThe thing, the thing that's happened to me is I don't know where the kids have kids are

33:18SPEAKERnow.

33:19SPEAKERRight?

33:20SPEAKERLike the young, young people are on YouTube and then it seems like they go someplace or

33:25SPEAKERmaybe they just go outside and touch grass and don't get on the internet as much.

33:29SPEAKERI don't know about that.

33:30SPEAKERMaybe they're just on TikTok videos.

33:33SPEAKERThat's my impression is that it's still, well, what category or what age range are we talking

33:37SPEAKERabout here?

33:38SPEAKERI'm thinking like teenage, teenage to college, post college, like the kind of, the kind of

33:43SPEAKERlike perpetual age bracket that defines what's like cool.

33:45SPEAKERYou mean?

33:46SPEAKERI look, Brad, you know what?

33:48SPEAKERI think age bracket defines what's cool.

33:51SPEAKERWhat age bracket?

33:52SPEAKERI just turned 50 this year.

33:53SPEAKERSo I think it's 50 year olds define what's cool, Brad.

33:55SPEAKERInteresting that you would think that.

33:57SPEAKERLet me let me, I'm wearing a pair of shorts and tall socks with sandals and I'm bringing

34:02SPEAKERit back.

34:03SPEAKERWhat a remarkable coincidence.

34:04SPEAKERYeah.

34:05SPEAKERIt's shocking.

34:06SPEAKERRight?

34:07SPEAKERI think it's like 40 year olds, but I guess I was wrong.

34:09SPEAKERWhen you said like kids are on YouTube, you're talking to like young kids.

34:12SPEAKERI think, I think YouTube is very popular for school, a primary middle school and, and there's,

34:20SPEAKERit seems like judging from content trends that I'm aware of that the, like there's definitely

34:25SPEAKERYouTube consumption all the way through, like for a lot, for an entire generation, YouTube

34:30SPEAKERis like video for them.

34:32SPEAKERRight?

34:33SPEAKERRight.

34:34SPEAKERLike they don't watch TV.

34:35SPEAKERThey don't watch, they consume stuff through YouTube.

34:39SPEAKERAnd they sit down and watch a Mark Rober or a Mr. Beast video.

34:42SPEAKERLike you would watch an episode of Alton Catch Fire.

34:44SPEAKERWell, that's terrifying.

34:45SPEAKERI mean, Mark Rober is okay.

34:47SPEAKEROkay.

34:48SPEAKERI, yeah, I don't, wait, do I know who that is?

34:49SPEAKERI started to say I don't, but.

34:51SPEAKERHe's the former JPL guy who builds like, the thing that he did that's the most wholesome

34:56SPEAKERis probably the squirrel, the squirrel obstacle course.

35:00SPEAKERYeah, he's fine.

35:01SPEAKERYeah, he's fine.

35:02SPEAKERHe's a little bro-y these days.

35:03SPEAKERHe's been hanging out with Mr. Beast.

35:05SPEAKERThat's not great.

35:06SPEAKERAnyway.

35:07SPEAKERI hear Miss Rachel is cool.

35:08SPEAKERMiss Rachel's cool?

35:09SPEAKERYeah.

35:10SPEAKERI don't have a kid that age.

35:11SPEAKERBluey's great.

35:12SPEAKERI, who knew I was going to be watching Bluey on my own without a Bluey age child?

35:17SPEAKERI have Bluey merch.

35:18SPEAKERNo shame in it.

35:19SPEAKERNever would have guessed that.

35:20SPEAKERYeah.

35:21SPEAKERYeah.

35:22SPEAKERI mean, I don't know.

35:23SPEAKERI just, I was thinking through the, I hate to say graveyard, but that's kind of what

35:27SPEAKERit is of like attempted social media sites.

35:29SPEAKERI mean, like co-host is a big one.

35:31SPEAKERCo-host wasn't a big one though was the problem.

35:32SPEAKERNo, no, no.

35:33SPEAKERI mean, it's a big example.

35:34SPEAKERI mean, big in our circles, but it's a, it's a prominent example of a site that tried to

35:42SPEAKERdo social media better.

35:43SPEAKERIs what I'm saying.

35:44SPEAKERThey had a different arguably better idea about how to do social media and came in and

35:47SPEAKERtried it.

35:48SPEAKERUnfortunately it didn't work, but you know, there, there have been some attempts here

35:50SPEAKERand there to build a different mastodon.

35:52SPEAKERI mean, that's, that's been around for a long time though, but it's also so decentralized

35:56SPEAKERand not like not for profit that it's almost in a different category.

36:00SPEAKERI mean, like blue sky is clearly the biggest of those attempts to dethrone one of the main

36:04SPEAKERplatforms, but they seem to have stalled out pretty significantly.

36:08SPEAKERI think that's I think that's a perception I like it's it's like early Twitter was it's

36:14SPEAKERfits and starts.

36:15SPEAKERYeah.

36:16SPEAKERRight.

36:17SPEAKERYou know, really what I'm getting at here though, is just like among the major players,

36:20SPEAKERthey're all still on top, you know, nobody has come along and bumped any of them out

36:24SPEAKERof the category that they occupy.

36:26SPEAKERI think for me, it's almost more that there's just a general decline, right?

36:31SPEAKERI feel like my perception is that social media's influence is waning really.

36:36SPEAKERAnd I mean, that's probably a good thing, but I had not gotten that vibe.

36:40SPEAKERI will certainly hear the argument though.

36:41SPEAKERI feel like Facebook, which was the dominant thing, you know, for, for 10, 12 years is,

36:48SPEAKERhas become the place that our parents and grandparents go to hang out and the kids,

36:55SPEAKERthe kids don't have Facebook account, like despite Facebook trying to make Facebook messenger,

36:59SPEAKERthe defacto communication platform for children.

37:02SPEAKERSo it can hook them young.

37:03SPEAKERThe kids want nothing to do with it.

37:05SPEAKERAnd same thing for Instagram.

37:06SPEAKERI mean, the sad reality though, is that not everybody has to be on social media for it

37:10SPEAKERto have a profoundly deleterious effect on society.

37:14SPEAKERLet's say when the people running the country are incredibly too online, it has some negative

37:21SPEAKERdownstream consequences.

37:23SPEAKERAll I'm saying is that when I told my kid, you know, she turns 13 next year, she could

37:26SPEAKERhave an Instagram account if she wanted, she looked at me like I just offered her a couple

37:30SPEAKERof cigarettes.

37:31SPEAKERWow.

37:32SPEAKERYeah.

37:33SPEAKERWait, wait.

37:34SPEAKERHang on in a good way.

37:35SPEAKERLike she wants to smoke.

37:36SPEAKERNo, there's a lot.

37:37SPEAKERNo, no, no.

37:38SPEAKERShe does not want to smoke.

37:39SPEAKERThere's a lot of, there's a lot of the kids are aware that exposing yourself to that kind

37:43SPEAKERof content a lot has, you know, there's a reason the youngs tell the olds to go out

37:48SPEAKERand touch grass when, when we're being extremely online.

37:53SPEAKERMaybe the youth will save us.

37:55SPEAKERMaybe.

37:56SPEAKERI mean, I think they've been saying that since since the boomers were young though, Brad.

38:00SPEAKERSo I don't know if it's going to actually happen.

38:02SPEAKERYes.

38:03SPEAKERDo you want to talk about this iPhone tracking thing?

38:05SPEAKERJust cause I think it ties into social media pretty directly while we're, while we're still

38:08SPEAKERhere that that big change happened.

38:10SPEAKERYeah.

38:11SPEAKERSo in 2021, Apple added, put an iOS update out that added a toggle that said, Hey, this

38:18SPEAKERapp wants to track you.

38:19SPEAKERDo you want to allow that?

38:21SPEAKERAnd everybody clicked no because nobody wants to be tracked.

38:23SPEAKERIt turns out when presented in a clear, clear language.

38:26SPEAKERAnd that combined with the GPRS GP what's the, your GDPR, there you go.

38:34SPEAKERAnd the CDPR, which is the California version of that law means that advertisers were less

38:40SPEAKERable to build profiles of you as an advertising customer or, or exploitee.

38:50SPEAKERAnd as a result, the, the custom ad business on Facebook and Google kind of started showing

38:56SPEAKERthe first seams that it's ever had.

38:59SPEAKERNow, I hadn't thought to ask this before seeing as that is a pillar of Google's core business.

39:03SPEAKERAs you just mentioned, can I assume that they never instituted anything similar on Android?

39:08SPEAKERNot that that's a good question.

39:10SPEAKERI don't use Android.

39:11SPEAKERI don't think they did until it was probably too late that it didn't matter.

39:14SPEAKERYeah.

39:15SPEAKERI also think this is probably why they're leaning so hard into AI and why they've let

39:18SPEAKERthe search results become crap over the last five years.

39:22SPEAKERThey Google?

39:23SPEAKERGoogle.

39:24SPEAKEROkay.

39:25SPEAKERYeah.

39:26SPEAKERAnd I'm sure this, I mean, this like it didn't destroy Facebook's business, but it was incredibly

39:30SPEAKERdisruptive to it, right?

39:31SPEAKERIt was, it was Facebook.

39:34SPEAKERMy understanding is that internally at Facebook, and this is from reading reports, you know,

39:38SPEAKERsource from tech reports of people who work there is that they viewed it as a day.

39:42SPEAKERFacebook viewed it as a declaration of war from Apple on Facebook.

39:45SPEAKERAll right.

39:47SPEAKERYeah.

39:48SPEAKERSo, you know, good for us, bad for Facebook.

39:51SPEAKERThat's probably okay.

39:52SPEAKERHey Facebook.

39:53SPEAKERDelinda est.

39:54SPEAKEROkay.

39:55SPEAKERWhat does Delinda est mean, Brad?

40:00SPEAKERIt's I believe that translates to Facebook must be destroyed.

40:03SPEAKEROh, okay.

40:04SPEAKERThat was, that was, that was a big, that was a big like Latin rally.

40:07SPEAKERI think that's Latin.

40:08SPEAKERRight?

40:09SPEAKERYeah.

40:10SPEAKERSo there was a big rallying cry that Mark Zuckerberg was said to have used Apple, Delinda

40:14SPEAKERest.

40:15SPEAKERMaybe not about Apple, but about some of their, that came out in some profile of him five,

40:19SPEAKERsix, seven years ago or something like that.

40:22SPEAKERThat was a, that was a rallying cry he liked to use about their competitors internally.

40:25SPEAKERGreat.

40:26SPEAKERGood.

40:27SPEAKERVery good.

40:28SPEAKERIt was like a charming guy.

40:29SPEAKERAnyway.

40:30SPEAKERMaybe some, some slightly less depressing, more tangible hardware related stuff.

40:35SPEAKERYou, you have written here, OLED finally got cheap.

40:38SPEAKERYes.

40:39SPEAKERI guess that's true.

40:40SPEAKERLike it got affordable.

40:41SPEAKERI would say, I don't know if I'd say cheap.

40:43SPEAKERWell, you, you can get pretty cheap, like LG has like pretty entry-level OLED TVs now.

40:49SPEAKERLike you wouldn't want to buy them if you play games on them because they tend to lack

40:52SPEAKERthe features that you want for playing games like high refresh and a lot of the HDMI 2.1

40:59SPEAKERtype stuff.

41:00SPEAKERBut like you can get a, if you just want a basic 60 Hertz TV to watch movies and stuff

41:04SPEAKERon you're right.

41:05SPEAKERYou can get an OLED TV for like reasonably inexpensive at this point.

41:09SPEAKERI'm looking at, I guess these are portables.

41:12SPEAKERI'm looking at a real OLED monitors for like 450 bucks right now.

41:18SPEAKEROkay.

41:19SPEAKERYou can get a 27 inch Odyssey OLED G6 from Samsung.

41:23SPEAKEROr 50 huh?

41:24SPEAKERWhich is a 240 Hertz FreeSync, not G-Sync gaming monitor for 600 bucks new.

41:31SPEAKERWait, where did the 450 come in?

41:33SPEAKERThat was a, that was a LG ultra gear monitor.

41:38SPEAKERPC monitor?

41:39SPEAKERYeah, I've been, I've been keeping my eye on OLED monitors cause I really want one.

41:45SPEAKERAlthough I'm pretty skittish about burn-in still.

41:48SPEAKERI'm having used one for quite a bit.

41:51SPEAKERBurn-in is a concern.

41:52SPEAKERI didn't have any problems.

41:54SPEAKERIt's a 1440p monitor, not a 4k, obviously.

41:56SPEAKERI'm still, I am still happy at 1440p, 27 inch, I don't know about you.

42:00SPEAKERLike that's just a good, I think that's a sweet spot for me for pixel density and screen

42:04SPEAKERsize.

42:05SPEAKERHere's a, here's an AOC Agon Pro 27 inch WQHD, which is 1440p I think, monitor for a 450

42:14SPEAKERfrom Newegg.

42:15SPEAKERAnd AOC made our first meter monitor ever in 1993.

42:18SPEAKERYeah.

42:19SPEAKERShe's great in Congress too.

42:20SPEAKERWe big fan.

42:21SPEAKERSomething nostalgic about, um, yeah, but like, you know, you can get, you can get OLED TVs

42:26SPEAKERthat are, that are competitive with LCD prices at this point, you know.

42:30SPEAKERThere's a 32 inch OLED from MSI, the mag 32 one up X it's another 1440p one, I think.

42:38SPEAKERUh, that's, Oh no, that's 4k for 699 right now.

42:44SPEAKER6700 is kind of where most prices were last I checked, which is still a little too spendy

42:48SPEAKERfor me.

42:49SPEAKERBut that's a 32 inch 4k, not a 1440p, you know, like they're getting there.

42:54SPEAKERIt's cheaper.

42:55SPEAKERI think, I think like sub 400 is where I like a monitor to be.

42:58SPEAKERI mean, look, I keep monitors for a really long time.

43:00SPEAKERMy, my 4k monitor that died a few weeks ago is, is 12, 10 years old at this point.

43:06SPEAKEROkay.

43:07SPEAKERSo I feel, you know, I feel like if I get 10 years out of something, I'll spend a grand

43:10SPEAKERon it.

43:11SPEAKERI'm sorry.

43:12SPEAKERCould you repeat that?

43:13SPEAKERMy 4k monitor that died a few weeks ago.

43:14SPEAKERThe thing before that, I believe you said you keep monitors for a long time.

43:20SPEAKERLook, I don't want it to, you have a different criteria for a long time there.

43:24SPEAKERLook, you're digging, you're like, I look, when my 4k monitor died, I had to go out to

43:29SPEAKERthe garage and grab a 2408 slightly newer than your old 2204s, I think it was, it was

43:35SPEAKERthe 2005.

43:36SPEAKERYeah.

43:37SPEAKER2020 five.

43:38SPEAKERSorry.

43:39SPEAKERI think it was bought in 2006 to be fair, but Dell's Dell's name scheme at that time

43:42SPEAKERwas size year.

43:43SPEAKERYeah.

43:44SPEAKERYou know, I only kept those monitors for 14 years.

43:47SPEAKERSo if you're saying you keep yours for 10, I wasn't really that far outside the range.

43:50SPEAKERThe difference is I buy good ones when I buy them, dude, those were monitors were like

43:54SPEAKERtop of the line.

43:55SPEAKERWhen I bought them.

43:56SPEAKERWhat was the resolution again?

43:57SPEAKERI mean, they were 16, 16, 80 by 10, 50, but like, yeah, that was a $600 monitor in 2006,

44:02SPEAKERbut they weren't widescreen.

44:03SPEAKERYeah, they were 16 by 10.

44:05SPEAKEROkay.

44:06SPEAKEROkay.

44:07SPEAKEROkay.

44:08SPEAKERThey're fine.

44:09SPEAKERThey were a little small.

44:10SPEAKERI mean, that thing was like, that was fucking mind blowing to play world of Warcraft on

44:13SPEAKERwhen I got it.

44:14SPEAKERI'll tell you.

44:15SPEAKERThat's true.

44:16SPEAKERAnd they were almost 10 ADP.

44:17SPEAKERI mean, they were not 10 ADP, but there were almost 10, 80 lines.

44:20SPEAKERSo yeah, you could, you could do okay.

44:23SPEAKERAnyway, these, these, these as soon as monitors that I've got now, the word, the new monitors

44:28SPEAKERare now five years old.

44:30SPEAKERYeah.

44:31SPEAKERSo you're halfway there.

44:32SPEAKERI'm not quite into new monitor territory yet, but these things are not, they don't have

44:35SPEAKERquite the luster where they used to.

44:37SPEAKERAre they 10 ADPs?

44:38SPEAKERNo, no.

44:39SPEAKERThey're, they're 1440s.

44:40SPEAKERThey're 1440, 27 inch.

44:41SPEAKERThey're not as high of a refresh rate though, right?

44:43SPEAKERYou missed that?

44:44SPEAKERThey're 144.

44:45SPEAKER144.

44:46SPEAKEROkay.

44:47SPEAKERYeah.

44:48SPEAKERLike they've got all the basics you would want.

44:49SPEAKERI mean, they're, they're okay, but they're, they're HDR is shit.

44:51SPEAKERAnd their contrast is also terrible because their IPS.

44:54SPEAKERI will say the hardest part of going back, I've got to pick a new monitor.

44:57SPEAKERI haven't had time to deal with it lately, but the hardest part of this is the 60 Hertz

45:01SPEAKERpanel just feels archaic at this point.

45:04SPEAKERYep.

45:05SPEAKERI can't do it.

45:06SPEAKERLike I even, even less than already, I'm sorry, even more than for games, it's actually just

45:09SPEAKERstraight up gooey.

45:10SPEAKERJust moving the cursor feels really chonky.

45:14SPEAKERI need a high refresh in my operating system shell.

45:17SPEAKERIt's very, the text doesn't update fast enough.

45:21SPEAKERJust to like moving windows on the mouse cursor around and scrolling web pages needs to be

45:24SPEAKERsmooth or I lose my mind at this point.

45:27SPEAKERI have written here and after OLED finally got cheap, I have written in micro LEDs still

45:31SPEAKERperpetually five years away.

45:33SPEAKERAlways five years off.

45:34SPEAKERMaybe we'll get there.

45:35SPEAKERWe saw OLED, they were selling OLED TVs that they had, they had them on display that were

45:39SPEAKERreal products you could buy at CES this year.

45:42SPEAKERThey're just in the micro OLED.

45:45SPEAKERYeah, they're just too small there.

45:47SPEAKERI mean, they, they, a, the picture quality isn't great right now.

45:50SPEAKERAnd B they were there in the, this is a bespoke, basically not quite handmade, but might as

45:56SPEAKERwell be product that they're selling for incredibly high prices still.

45:59SPEAKERSo give it another five years.

46:01SPEAKERYeah.

46:02SPEAKERYes.

46:03SPEAKERLike Samsung has some for sale, but they'd start at 89 inches.

46:05SPEAKERYeah.

46:06SPEAKERAnd, and they start at like, when you click buy now, they're all like call for price type

46:10SPEAKERshit.

46:11SPEAKERIt's going to be a hundred thousand dollars probably.

46:12SPEAKERYeah.

46:13SPEAKERI mean, I have to double check, but if I remember micro led does not have the burn-in issues

46:18SPEAKERof OLED.

46:19SPEAKERNo, they shouldn't.

46:20SPEAKERSo I wrote down electric cars are made by more than just Tesla, which wasn't actually

46:25SPEAKERtrue in 2019, but was a perception.

46:27SPEAKERSure.

46:28SPEAKERBut also the, I think the real thing is in the late 20 teens, Teslas were reviewing incredibly

46:36SPEAKERwell because it was a lot of time that people did electric car reviews.

46:40SPEAKERIt was the first time they'd driven an electric car.

46:43SPEAKERAnd now we're seeing cars shipped by other manufacturers that are better in pretty much

46:48SPEAKERevery way than the first wave of, of electrics from Tesla.

46:52SPEAKERYeah.

46:53SPEAKERAnd, and there's a whole host of like electric car follow on companies like Rivian, Lucid,

46:59SPEAKERand you know, all these others that are available now and, and seem to be quite good.

47:06SPEAKERAnd there's infrastructure.

47:07SPEAKERI think that's the real one for me.

47:08SPEAKERI don't think they can make EVs all day long, but if there are not enough charging stations

47:11SPEAKERand such out there to support them, who cares?

47:13SPEAKERI will say, yeah, like the difference between driving to LA a couple of weeks ago and the

47:18SPEAKERdifference to driving to LA the first time we did in 2022 or 2021 is that in 2021, if

47:25SPEAKERwe missed a charge stop or if there was a charger that was full, we were, we had to

47:29SPEAKERwait, or if the charger was broken, we could be really hosed.

47:33SPEAKERAnd now every single time we stopped, yeah, we have an NACS Tesla charger adapter for

47:39SPEAKERour car now.

47:40SPEAKERAnd every time we stopped, we could have, like, if there were too many, if, if the charges

47:44SPEAKERwe wanted to go to were full, we could have just driven across the street to the super

47:48SPEAKERcharger and plugged in and been fine.

47:50SPEAKERRight.

47:51SPEAKERAnd it completely changes the stress of the drive.

47:53SPEAKERRight.

47:54SPEAKERLike, like Vinny just got that ionic and I was asking him, he drove to Pennsylvania I

47:58SPEAKERthink in it recently.

48:00SPEAKERAnd like, he actually said that there were more or better chargers available in rural

48:03SPEAKERareas than there were in urban.

48:05SPEAKERYeah, because it's easier to build them out there.

48:07SPEAKERYeah, that makes sense.

48:08SPEAKERBut I, those, my worry is that like, they might not be everywhere.

48:11SPEAKERYou might have to go like a pretty long stretch between chargers, but it sounds like that's

48:16SPEAKERnot starting to not be the case.

48:18SPEAKERMy understanding is that the proximity to a substation is actually the cheapest is the

48:23SPEAKERthing that makes it cheaper, because, which is why they're often near Walmart and stuff

48:27SPEAKERlike that.

48:28SPEAKERAnd there's Walmarts everywhere.

48:30SPEAKERAnd there's Walmarts everywhere, it turns out.

48:32SPEAKERLike there's so many electrify Americas and Walmart parking lots as you drive around the

48:35SPEAKERcountry now, it's kind of surprising.

48:37SPEAKERYeah.

48:38SPEAKERI mean, I think that's really the change here is that like EVs are happening.

48:41SPEAKERLike as, as a, as a broad societal trend, they are becoming viable and, and increasingly

48:47SPEAKERcommon.

48:48SPEAKERYeah.

48:49SPEAKERAnd that's really interesting.

48:50SPEAKERWell, and, and like it's a, it's, it's, it's a real value in a lot of ways, right?

48:56SPEAKERLike I, the electricity I would have paid, like we still have free electrify America,

49:01SPEAKERbut I think it would have been about $35 each way to charge when we were, when we were driving

49:07SPEAKERback from LA, driving to LA and like, I mean, I can't, it's 400 miles.

49:13SPEAKERI can't beat that on, on gas.

49:16SPEAKERThere's no way.

49:17SPEAKERYeah.

49:18SPEAKERSo anyway.

49:19SPEAKERAll right.

49:20SPEAKERI think we're down to it here.

49:21SPEAKERAll the ones we've got left are PC hardware and gaming related.

49:23SPEAKEROkay.

49:25SPEAKERI liked the way you phrased this originally, which you'd not put in the notes, but AMD

49:29SPEAKERand Intel kind of swapped places.

49:30SPEAKERAlthough I don't, I mean, I don't think that's actually true from a numerical perspective,

49:33SPEAKERlike market share wise.

49:34SPEAKERI assume Intel is probably still bigger.

49:36SPEAKERWell, when did Raptor Lake come out?

49:39SPEAKERRight?

49:40SPEAKERTwo years ago.

49:41SPEAKEROh, Raptor Lake.

49:42SPEAKER13th January.

49:43SPEAKERRaptor Lake was August, it was 2022.

49:44SPEAKERSorry.

49:45SPEAKERYeah.

49:46SPEAKERRaptor Lake refresh was two years ago.

49:48SPEAKERSo 13th gen was three years ago.

49:50SPEAKERSo Alder Lake was before that.

49:53SPEAKERAnd then let's see the first, the one before that was the first kind of a hybrid architecture,

49:59SPEAKERright?

50:00SPEAKERFrom Intel?

50:01SPEAKERFrom Intel.

50:02SPEAKEROh, that's, I think was Alder Lake the first hybrid Intel?

50:04SPEAKERI think Alder Lake was the first hybrid.

50:08SPEAKERAnd Tiger Lake.

50:09SPEAKERGod, it's these, the fact that they do code names for the core types and the chip and

50:15SPEAKERthe package and mobile and server and the micro architecture is bananas, but okay.

50:22SPEAKERSo in 2020, we were, September, 2020 is when Tiger Lake launched, which was 11th gen Intel

50:29SPEAKERcore mobile only processors, I guess.

50:34SPEAKERYeah.

50:35SPEAKERTiger, Tiger was some kind of like weird bridge generation.

50:38SPEAKERI think.

50:39SPEAKERYeah.

50:40SPEAKERI don't think it was, it was not a Skylake design.

50:41SPEAKERLike it was the, Oh, I think 10th, 10th gen was the last of the like endless Skylake revision.

50:48SPEAKERRocket Lake was the desktop version of that, of that generation, right?

50:52SPEAKERAnd that was 11th gen core desktop microprocessors.

50:56SPEAKERAnyway, anyway, to focus this here, like the way you put it here is AMD's Ryzen bet paid

51:01SPEAKERoff in that time because actually it's, it's, it's hard to remember now, but when we launched

51:05SPEAKERthis podcast, Zen 2 was like brand new.

51:08SPEAKERYeah.

51:09SPEAKERAnd, and was still like, it's funny, we talked about this in the full narrative a couple

51:12SPEAKERof weeks ago, but, but Zen 1 was rough, right?

51:16SPEAKERYes.

51:17SPEAKERIt had memory problems.

51:18SPEAKERLike there was promise there.

51:19SPEAKERIf you had applications that used a lot of cores, it was incredibly valuable, but if

51:23SPEAKERyou didn't, it was probably, it wasn't a safe bet.

51:26SPEAKERIt was a fiddly architecture that was tough to build.

51:28SPEAKERIt was tough to work with.

51:30SPEAKERYou had to kind of know what you were doing to get it, to get it, to do the things that

51:33SPEAKERyou wanted to do well.

51:36SPEAKERAnd I feel like in the time, in the intervening time through Zen 4, through AM4 and AM5, their,

51:44SPEAKERtheir gamble on the disaggregated architecture has really paid off.

51:47SPEAKERYeah, for sure.

51:48SPEAKERMy memory of Zen 2 is that like it basically worked.

51:51SPEAKERI mean, I'm sure I think it's had some issues, but compared to Zen 1, it basically worked,

51:56SPEAKERbut it was maybe not especially competitive on a performance basis.

51:59SPEAKERBut then Zen 3 was the one that came along and people were like, Oh wow, like AMD's serious.

52:05SPEAKERThey're doing this.

52:06SPEAKERSo Zen, Zen 2 had some real bangers.

52:09SPEAKERThat was what the Ryzen 3000 series, and those were, those were real good.

52:14SPEAKERZen 2 is what's in the Steam Deck, right?

52:16SPEAKERZen 2 has had some real legs.

52:18SPEAKERAnd I think the Zen 2's biggest thing was just, they were, that's when the core accounts

52:21SPEAKERwere really starting to go up.

52:23SPEAKERRight?

52:24SPEAKERYeah.

52:25SPEAKERIt's when Threadripper started to really stretch its legs too.

52:28SPEAKERAnd then Zen 3 was when it was just like, Oh wow, you can get a really competitive 16

52:32SPEAKERcore CPU from them now.

52:34SPEAKERAnd it's actually quite good.

52:35SPEAKERBut just to be clear, Steam Deck, PS5, Xbox series, all are Zen 2 micro architecture chips.

52:41SPEAKERSo yeah, it makes sense.

52:45SPEAKERAnd in that, and then the intervening time, obviously we've had the whole Raptor Lake

52:48SPEAKERfiasco with Intel.

52:49SPEAKERYeah.

52:50SPEAKERAnd like all of them are like pretty good.

52:51SPEAKERLike I, excuse me, I have a 12th gen in my NAS and my home server, 12600K, which has

52:57SPEAKERbeen perfectly fine.

52:58SPEAKERLike that thing has run well, it was only, it was only the 13th, 14th gen voltage problems

53:03SPEAKERthat Intel like really face planted.

53:06SPEAKERWell, but, but actually you have to remember they had those 13th and 14th gen voltage problems

53:11SPEAKERbecause they had to keep releasing the same chips juiced higher and higher because they

53:16SPEAKERhad problems getting their disaggregated architecture out, which like, Hey, making switching, switching

53:23SPEAKERdoing that big of an architecture change is, is hard.

53:26SPEAKERI mean, there's a reason nobody was handing a hardware of the year to to Zen 1 and Zen

53:32SPEAKER2 parts, but but yeah, so I like, I think it's really interesting.

53:36SPEAKERIntel's on the ropes.

53:37SPEAKERAMD is rising their, their early investment in taking this hit when they didn't have a

53:43SPEAKERwhole lot to lose has worked out for them.

53:46SPEAKERAnd, and that's interesting, you know, a friend, friend of the show Gordon Maung always used

53:51SPEAKERto say nobody ever got fired for buying Intel except for now we, I said that on the podcast

53:56SPEAKERa few weeks ago on the tech on the full nerd a few weeks ago and somebody sent me a message.

54:02SPEAKERI'm not going to say who it was because they did not, they sent me a DM and they were like,

54:05SPEAKERyeah, it turns out somebody tried to equip one of our data centers with a bunch of Intel

54:10SPEAKERparts and, and we had to have a conversation with them cause it didn't make a lot of sense

54:14SPEAKERright now.

54:15SPEAKERAnd I was like, wow, you might get fired for buying Intel finally.

54:18SPEAKERYeah.

54:19SPEAKERI mean like the Threadripper and Epic stuff has gotten huge in that space for sure.

54:24SPEAKERWell, yeah, the, the, the like having both bad power consumption and bad performance

54:29SPEAKERis not a great place to be.

54:31SPEAKERYeah.

54:32SPEAKEROr stability issues or whatever.

54:33SPEAKERI mean, Intel's problems are well-documented, but I hope, I hope they get it together because

54:37SPEAKERwe've said it a million times, like, like nowhere do I want to see healthy competition

54:41SPEAKERmore than in the CPU space.

54:42SPEAKERWell, and just to be clear, it's funny, there was a conversation about this in the discord

54:46SPEAKERearlier today, but like the, the Raptor Lake problems weren't impactful, like the problems

54:53SPEAKERwith Raptor Lake and with Intel burning up 13th and 14th gen processors, aren't the problems

55:00SPEAKERthat Intel's facing now.

55:01SPEAKERRight?

55:02SPEAKERThose are, those are a drop in the bucket.

55:03SPEAKERIt's like, it's like the equivalent is if Chevrolet has a problem with Corvettes, it

55:07SPEAKERdoesn't affect pickup trucks and, and, and sedans, right?

55:11SPEAKERI think you could probably say that the, that Raptor Lake issue was a symptom of the broader

55:16SPEAKERproblem.

55:17SPEAKERA hundred percent.

55:18SPEAKERI mean, the problem is that fab technology hit a wall, you know, Intel has built its

55:24SPEAKERentire business on the process technology shrinking every two to five years.

55:29SPEAKERAnd and they're not, they're not in that situation anymore.

55:32SPEAKERRight.

55:33SPEAKERThey didn't, they weren't able to adjust fast enough.

55:37SPEAKERAnd also as they're trying to switch their fab business from, Hey, we only build Intel

55:44SPEAKERprocessors on Intel fabs to, Hey, we're going to build world-class boundaries that anybody

55:48SPEAKERcan access their tooling and their backend and all the work that has to happen in order

55:54SPEAKERfor that to happen.

55:55SPEAKERIntel is not, Intel has never been on the industry standard tooling for that stuff.

56:00SPEAKERSo if you want to build a processor and Intel's fabs, you have to use Intel's tooling and

56:04SPEAKERSamsung and Apple and Nvidia and all the other companies that build chips, aren't going to

56:10SPEAKERdo that.

56:11SPEAKERAnd Intel was slow making that adjustment.

56:12SPEAKERSo anyway, I mean, we're seeing, we're seeing the fruit of that come around with really

56:18SPEAKERkick ass parts like lunar Lake, which just shipped last year.

56:21SPEAKERBut, but we, and, and just to be clear, the underlying, like the, the Foveros layer on

56:28SPEAKERthat, I think, which is the kind of glue that holds all of the chiplets on the, on the disaggregated

56:32SPEAKERchip is, is Intel technology, but all the other chips on that, on that processor are

56:38SPEAKERbuilt by TSMC.

56:39SPEAKERMaybe not all, I think maybe some of those might be fab, but definitely at least a good

56:45SPEAKERchunk of them are.

56:46SPEAKERYeah.

56:47SPEAKERI mean, you know, and then like in 2019, for example, the, the idea of Intel having to

56:51SPEAKERgo to a major competitor to fabricate parts of their like flagship CPU's was like unthinkable,

56:56SPEAKERright?

56:57SPEAKERYeah.

56:58SPEAKERYeah.

56:59SPEAKERI just saw, I just saw a headline today that, I mean, this is just like another milestone

57:01SPEAKERin the 18A, kind of, you want to call it, not roadmap, but 18A is Intel's new next gen

57:10SPEAKERprocess.

57:11SPEAKERIt's the thing that's going to save Intel, it's building the factory in Phoenix right

57:15SPEAKERnow.

57:16SPEAKERIt's, it's, it's the thing they are betting the entire company on is their, their big,

57:19SPEAKERbig new competitive CPU process.

57:20SPEAKERBut anyway, they showed off, it was just like a reference arm chip that they fabbed on it,

57:25SPEAKERbut they're out there basically saying like, Hey, here's finished Silicon that we have

57:29SPEAKERfabbed on 18A, like this is working like we're doing it.

57:32SPEAKERSo another milestone, milestone on the road to 18A products getting to market, it seems

57:38SPEAKERlike.

57:39SPEAKERI was going to say the other thing about all of this that kind of sucks for Intel, I feel

57:41SPEAKERbad for Intel sometimes is that building this kind of next generation, like cutting edge

57:49SPEAKERprocess technology fab is so expensive and takes so long that, you know, we're, we're,

57:58SPEAKERit's not surprising that they're having stock and market problems when they try to do five

58:03SPEAKERof these in five years.

58:05SPEAKERRight.

58:06SPEAKERIt almost feels like that process is like not compatible with the way the market works.

58:12SPEAKERThere's a reason a lot of the other, I mean, there's not a lot of other companies that

58:14SPEAKERdo this kind of fabrication.

58:16SPEAKERTSMC is the big one.

58:18SPEAKERSamsung also does some stuff, but not at this level.

58:21SPEAKERAnd the, the, like, I assume that there's government money involved with some of this

58:27SPEAKERstuff.

58:28SPEAKERSo I don't know for sure.

58:29SPEAKERYeah.

58:30SPEAKERAll right.

58:31SPEAKERLast few here real fast.

58:32SPEAKERVR is on life support.

58:33SPEAKERYou say, well, so one of the things we talked about early on on this podcast was that Oculus

58:41SPEAKERhad Facebook through Oculus had set some weird expectations for what VR games should be because

58:46SPEAKERthey were subsidizing, you know, what were essentially like AAA or B games to be built

58:53SPEAKERwith like really high quality assets and really high spend that never had any chance of making

58:58SPEAKERtheir money back.

59:00SPEAKERAnd the crows have come home to roost and people are expecting, Facebook isn't subsidizing

59:05SPEAKERgames like that anymore.

59:07SPEAKERThere aren't those big AA games and those, the people that were interested in those games

59:12SPEAKERhave evaporated.

59:14SPEAKERIt's taken, it seems like it's maybe taken down the PSVR market with it as well.

59:17SPEAKERPlayStation VR too seems like an abject disaster by all indications.

59:21SPEAKERYeah.

59:22SPEAKERCause like the, the installed base of headsets versus the amount of money you can make expecting

59:27SPEAKERto sell a game into those platforms is really, really grim.

59:31SPEAKERIf you're a game developer.

59:33SPEAKERAnd I don't like the, the only things that are successful are, you know, the same five

59:39SPEAKERapplications we've been talking about for 10 years now, like Beat Saber and, and games

59:44SPEAKERthat you can just keep dumping content in and that's relatively inexpensive to make.

59:47SPEAKERSo, you know, just to contrast with six years ago, I think people were still fairly bullish

59:52SPEAKERor at least like optimistic to curious about where VR was going.

59:56SPEAKERI think we were looking down the barrel of new consoles and thinking maybe this was going

59:59SPEAKERto, this was going to be a shot in the arm.

1:00:02SPEAKERIt was unclear if the, the Oculus headsets were going to work on Microsoft hardware given

1:00:07SPEAKERthat Microsoft had some investment in some relationship there that the, we didn't know

1:00:13SPEAKERwhat was going to happen with the, with the Oculus, with the Facebook platform, honestly.

1:00:19SPEAKERAnd since then, we've seen Microsoft just kill windows mixed reality wholesale that's

1:00:25SPEAKERgone.

1:00:26SPEAKERNow, if you're on a current version of windows, just FYI,

1:00:28SPEAKERI've still got that headset in the closet.

1:00:29SPEAKERI should probably just like you wasted at this point, right?

1:00:31SPEAKERWell, I mean, give it to a museum man.

1:00:35SPEAKERYeah, because you literally can't hook it up to a modern windows machine and use it.

1:00:38SPEAKERI keep, I keep thinking somebody will do something open source-y with it, but I don't know.

1:00:44SPEAKERValve released an incredible, one incredible game.

1:00:47SPEAKERAnd then, you know, we had not, we'll get something else from them in 10 years maybe.

1:00:51SPEAKERMaybe.

1:00:52SPEAKERAnd there's no, there's a handful of kind of interesting niche headsets, like big screen

1:00:57SPEAKERVR.

1:00:58SPEAKERAnd, and yeah, there's a bunch of companies making headsets that I've never heard of now.

1:01:03SPEAKERYeah.

1:01:04SPEAKERAnd it's, it's literally like almost not quite bespoke hardware, but it's like people that

1:01:08SPEAKERare making tens of thousands to maybe a hundred thousand units that are just feeding into

1:01:14SPEAKERthat existing market of people who are really into VR.

1:01:17SPEAKERAnd then you also see stuff like the, like the Apple display, the Apple vision pro, thank

1:01:23SPEAKERyou.

1:01:24SPEAKERThat are, you know, clearly first tentative steps, but are moving incredibly slowly.

1:01:30SPEAKERAnd yeah, the whole thing feels more abundant at this point.

1:01:32SPEAKERMaybe, maybe it'll come back, but I think if it does, it's going to be as much of a

1:01:36SPEAKERproductivity tool as it is, you know, a thing that we use to play games.

1:01:45SPEAKERBut yeah, speaking of games.

1:01:46SPEAKERYes.

1:01:47SPEAKERYou mentioned consoles.

1:01:48SPEAKERYeah.

1:01:49SPEAKERWe have cleared, since this podcast launched, we have nearly cleared one entire console

1:01:53SPEAKERgeneration.

1:01:54SPEAKERI think we have at this point, right?

1:01:56SPEAKERWe're close.

1:01:57SPEAKERWe've had, we've had new consoles from all the three, the three big manufacturers cleared

1:02:00SPEAKERas in we've gotten to the end of the generation and new ones are imminent.

1:02:03SPEAKERLike we're, we're kind of getting there.

1:02:05SPEAKERI mean, we're not quite there yet, but we were about a year out from the PS5 and series

1:02:10SPEAKERX launching the Xbox when we started this podcast.

1:02:14SPEAKERAnd by all accounts, we're now probably only about a couple of years away from the next

1:02:18SPEAKERrev of those things.

1:02:20SPEAKERAnnouncements next year, maybe, I don't know, whatever, whatever the Xbox ends up being,

1:02:23SPEAKERbut a PlayStation six seems pretty well guaranteed.

1:02:28SPEAKERMy understanding is that this podcast is an Xbox brand.

1:02:30SPEAKERIs that true?

1:02:31SPEAKERMaybe.

1:02:32SPEAKERI've heard everything is an Xbox.

1:02:33SPEAKERYeah.

1:02:34SPEAKERThat's what I got.

1:02:35SPEAKERUm, that's, it's wild.

1:02:36SPEAKERThis, this console generation feels so compressed because the machines were hard to get in the

1:02:41SPEAKERbeginning.

1:02:42SPEAKERYeah.

1:02:43SPEAKERLike there are a lot of reasons and some of those are like professional for me, but like

1:02:45SPEAKERevery console that, you know, I started, I, we were on the N64 and PlayStation one when

1:02:50SPEAKERI started writing about games, I've been through a lot of console launches, but every one of

1:02:54SPEAKERthem is a lot of like going out to see stuff, you know, a lot of like, especially when we

1:02:59SPEAKERwere in an office, it's, it's a little different now that we're all remote, but like back when

1:03:02SPEAKERwe were in an office, it was a big deal of like, oh man, like I went and saw the first

1:03:06SPEAKERXbox 360 game today.

1:03:08SPEAKERIt was full auto by the way.

1:03:09SPEAKEROh, wow.

1:03:10SPEAKERLike, but, but it was always like one person would go take the assignment to go see the

1:03:14SPEAKERfirst game on a new console and then come back and everybody in the office would like

1:03:18SPEAKERcrowd around and start asking questions.

1:03:20SPEAKERThere's like, ah, what was the controller like and blah, blah, blah, all this stuff.

1:03:23SPEAKERIt's really funny.

1:03:24SPEAKERYeah.

1:03:25SPEAKEROh, go ahead.

1:03:26SPEAKERI was going to say we didn't get that with the PS five and series X because we were all

1:03:29SPEAKERworking at home.

1:03:30SPEAKERSo there were no preview events to go to where it was like right in the middle of that was

1:03:33SPEAKERlike early pandemic.

1:03:34SPEAKERSo when they would have normally done that, we were all locked down still.

1:03:38SPEAKERRight.

1:03:39SPEAKERRight.

1:03:40SPEAKERThat was why.

1:03:41SPEAKERSo like it almost felt like a non generation.

1:03:42SPEAKERIt felt like kind of a phase generation because there was none of that, like pre-release buildup.

1:03:46SPEAKERThey just kind of dropped.

1:03:48SPEAKERThere was also a really extended period of time where they, everybody was releasing all

1:03:53SPEAKERof their games on both the previous generation and the next generation.

1:03:57SPEAKERThat's been a huge part of it is that it felt like it took another two plus years after

1:04:00SPEAKERthey came out before like exclusive games started coming out and there hadn't been that.

1:04:04SPEAKERThe other thing is like development cycles getting so long that there have not been that

1:04:09SPEAKERmany games from a given developer at this point, you know, it's like, yeah, we get one

1:04:13SPEAKERinsomniac game a generation now, right?

1:04:16SPEAKERThat's exactly insomniac for whatever reason was the example I was about to use.

1:04:19SPEAKERI'm thinking very Sony centricly here, but maybe that's cause they are still trades so

1:04:22SPEAKERheavily in console exclusives, but like, yeah, naughty dog has not shipped a new game on

1:04:27SPEAKERthe PS five yet, you know, insomniac has just done Spiderman two.

1:04:30SPEAKERWell, they did last of us part two, they did PS five additions, right?

1:04:34SPEAKERYeah.

1:04:35SPEAKERYes.

1:04:36SPEAKERActually was, did Miles Morales come out on PS four?

1:04:38SPEAKERI think it did.

1:04:39SPEAKERCause I got it on PS four pro.

1:04:41SPEAKERThat's right.

1:04:42SPEAKEROkay.

1:04:43SPEAKERYes.

1:04:44SPEAKERSo anyway, point being like we were getting fewer games from a given developer than we

1:04:46SPEAKERused to.

1:04:47SPEAKERSo just this generation has felt pretty weak in a lot of ways.

1:04:50SPEAKERYeah.

1:04:51SPEAKERAnd yet we are well on our way to the next one already.

1:04:54SPEAKERI mean, maybe I, I wonder like to me, it seems like the PS five has legs still, and I feel

1:05:00SPEAKERlike everybody's buying games on or just playing game pass games on the Xbox.

1:05:04SPEAKERSo we'll just keep targeting whatever hardware people have on the, on that platform.

1:05:08SPEAKERI mean, I would assume, I would assume the next generation, at least just using the PlayStation

1:05:11SPEAKERas an example, I would assume there will be another two to three year overlap of cross

1:05:16SPEAKERgen games again.

1:05:17SPEAKERI mean, it kind of makes sense if you, if you think about it, like the thing, the thing

1:05:21SPEAKERit's funny, the things that this generation are missing really more than anything are

1:05:24SPEAKERjust like, like who, this wasn't on the list, but AI upscaling for games is, has been an

1:05:34SPEAKERincredibly transformational technology that started out really janky and bad.

1:05:38SPEAKERAnd now it feels weird that the consoles don't have that.

1:05:41SPEAKERI mean, I know the PS five pro does, but whatever.

1:05:44SPEAKERYes.

1:05:45SPEAKERAI upscaling and ray tracing both are like massive paradigm shifts in the way games are

1:05:50SPEAKERdone.

1:05:51SPEAKERIt's taken forever to get there, but you're finally seeing like doom, dark ages and some

1:05:56SPEAKERgames like that that require it.

1:05:58SPEAKERGames that actually use ray tracing for the entire lighting model is really exciting to

1:06:01SPEAKERme.

1:06:02SPEAKERUse it for them at the core of their pipeline rather than as just some like a very expensive

1:06:06SPEAKERoptional toggle.

1:06:07SPEAKERYeah.

1:06:08SPEAKERWell, making reflections look good.

1:06:10SPEAKERYeah.

1:06:11SPEAKERI'm yeah, I'm excited about what a next gen console can look like, but, but also because

1:06:18SPEAKERit's like, here's another thing that's happened in the last six years.

1:06:21SPEAKEREverything comes out on every platform except for Nintendo games.

1:06:24SPEAKERYeah, sure.

1:06:25SPEAKERRight.

1:06:26SPEAKERSure.

1:06:27SPEAKERI guess that really hadn't gotten into full swing.

1:06:28SPEAKERThere were like some gestures toward it when we started this Sony, when Sony released God

1:06:34SPEAKERof war on the PC.

1:06:37SPEAKERYeah.

1:06:38SPEAKERThat to me was a real, like that was in 2022 I think.

1:06:42SPEAKERYeah.

1:06:43SPEAKERThat was a real wild moment for me because I was like, Oh, we're going to see these games

1:06:48SPEAKERfrom these Sony owned studios coming out on other platforms.

1:06:53SPEAKERI didn't know you could do that.

1:06:55SPEAKERAnd I wonder like is MLB the show to be blamed for that because they had to release it.

1:07:00SPEAKERThat was at the behest of the licenser.

1:07:02SPEAKERSo that was kind of a special situation like that only happened, you know, the show is

1:07:06SPEAKERdeveloped by a Sony owned studio, but it started coming out on Xbox, but that was because MLB

1:07:10SPEAKERwanted it to.

1:07:11SPEAKEROkay.

1:07:12SPEAKERBut then it was, it was the more generalized like PlayStation games on PC and then Xbox

1:07:16SPEAKERgames on PlayStation was really the truly insane we're through the looking glass kind

1:07:20SPEAKERof.

1:07:21SPEAKERYeah.

1:07:22SPEAKERI mean like Minecraft on switch was another early one, you know, my craft was like, yeah,

1:07:27SPEAKERI guess you're right.

1:07:28SPEAKERCause Microsoft bought, bought them like ages ago.

1:07:31SPEAKERSo like that was an early example of here's a Microsoft owned product on other platforms,

1:07:34SPEAKERbut now it's just a free for all.

1:07:36SPEAKERYeah.

1:07:37SPEAKERSo that is a huge change.

1:07:38SPEAKERI'm just waiting on a Nintendo games to ship on Dreamcast.

1:07:40SPEAKERI think that's only a matter of time.

1:07:42SPEAKERWe'll get there.

1:07:43SPEAKERHey, Brad, handheld PCs gaming.

1:07:48SPEAKERThat's a thing now handheld gaming is, I mean, not like those machines have been around forever

1:07:53SPEAKERon wall.

1:07:54SPEAKERYeah.

1:07:55SPEAKEROn one hand, like ever since the game boy was out, like there's never been a point where

1:07:57SPEAKERhandheld gaming was not huge, but I guess it's more like the scope of things you can

1:08:00SPEAKERdo on handhelds has gotten so much crazier since we started this podcast.

1:08:06SPEAKERWell, I think, I think I think if you think about it, the, the, the big shift is that

1:08:12SPEAKERlike it's gone from being a weird niche thing that people who buy stuff from like Shenzhen

1:08:16SPEAKERelectronic markets and the vendors that work out of them, because like you've been able

1:08:20SPEAKERto buy small windows running PCs that you can play PC games on kind of for like 20 years

1:08:28SPEAKERat this point.

1:08:29SPEAKERRight.

1:08:30SPEAKERSure.

1:08:31SPEAKERThe big change is that valve took that and the work they did on Linux and the work they

1:08:35SPEAKERdid with proton and emulation and bundle it all up together to make a PC console, like

1:08:43SPEAKERa console like experience for the PC that somebody who doesn't know anything about PC

1:08:47SPEAKERhardware or Linux or when PC games can buy for three or $400 and play games on.

1:08:56SPEAKERAnd that's pretty rad.

1:08:57SPEAKERYeah.

1:08:58SPEAKERYeah.

1:08:59SPEAKERLike it, it went from, it went from a handheld, went from being the province of just Nintendo

1:09:02SPEAKERto all, you know, cause it was Game Boy, Game Boy Advance, 3DS, 3DS like handheld has been

1:09:09SPEAKERbig for pushing 40 years now, but it's just starting with the switch, but especially the

1:09:13SPEAKERsteam deck and then all the other steam decky type x86 things and also like the, the explosion

1:09:19SPEAKERin like these sort of emulation handheld space, you know, your Anberniks and like that whole

1:09:24SPEAKERthing.

1:09:25SPEAKERThe thing you can get for 75 bucks now that plays all your old through like what GameCube

1:09:30SPEAKERgames or something probably at this point, or probably even past that.

1:09:33SPEAKERI think like, I think you could probably do 360 PS3 on some of those things at this point.

1:09:37SPEAKERSo we actually had Russ from retro game core on the full nerd this week to talk a little

1:09:42SPEAKERbit about what's going on with handhelds and how tariffs are affecting them and all that

1:09:46SPEAKERstuff.

1:09:48SPEAKERAnd he has reviewed a bazillion of those Anbernic, those little emulation machines and was like,

1:09:55SPEAKERyeah, you can get like, he's like, you can run all the way up to PS2 PS3 era these days

1:09:59SPEAKERpretty reliably on, on some of them if you get the right one, which is pretty cool.

1:10:02SPEAKERAnd I think the other interesting thing about them is not just the compute they're putting

1:10:05SPEAKERin them, but the range of form factors they're making.

1:10:07SPEAKERFirst of all, there are a bazillion of those things.

1:10:09SPEAKERLike yeah.

1:10:10SPEAKERYou want one that looks like Game Boy light?

1:10:12SPEAKERYou got that.

1:10:13SPEAKERThat's exactly it.

1:10:14SPEAKERYou know, it's like, you can get one that looks like a Game Boy advanced SP.

1:10:16SPEAKERYou can get one with like clamshell one with two screens that you can basically use as

1:10:20SPEAKERa DS.

1:10:21SPEAKERIs there a Post Malone model?

1:10:22SPEAKERThat's what I want to know.

1:10:23SPEAKERProbably.

1:10:24SPEAKEROkay.

1:10:25SPEAKERBut like they're, they're just, they're just very shamelessly kind of knocking off every

1:10:28SPEAKERhandheld design ever made for very specific use cases, which is kind of awesome.

1:10:32SPEAKERThey're, they're still super niche-y, but they're, they're growing.

1:10:36SPEAKERI feel like misters.

1:10:38SPEAKERI feel like I'd seen a mystery.

1:10:39SPEAKERI think Jeff had a mystery at giant bomb before we started this podcast just a little bit

1:10:44SPEAKERbefore.

1:10:45SPEAKERYes.

1:10:46SPEAKERCause I built mine and we started this in September 19.

1:10:50SPEAKERI built my mystery the first, basically the first like full month of the pandemic, same

1:10:53SPEAKERApril, 2020, cause it needed something to do, but he had, he had been messing with that

1:10:58SPEAKERstuff for a little while before that.

1:10:59SPEAKERI think I came by for a Friday show or something and he had it on the table and I was like,

1:11:02SPEAKERwhat is this weird little stack of hardware?

1:11:04SPEAKERThis thing's cool.

1:11:05SPEAKERYeah.

1:11:06SPEAKERLike I resisted putting like FPGAs in here, but that's something else that's gotten big

1:11:09SPEAKERcertainly since we started this podcast, although like it's been a little quiet in that space

1:11:14SPEAKERfor a while.

1:11:15SPEAKERI feel like we've reached a point where like the low hanging fruit has been plucked and

1:11:19SPEAKERwe're waiting on better FPGAs now.

1:11:21SPEAKERYeah.

1:11:22SPEAKERThat's basically it.

1:11:23SPEAKERUm, the, the, the other thing I was going to say is the emulation, just emulation as

1:11:28SPEAKERa whole has gotten quite good.

1:11:30SPEAKERActually.

1:11:31SPEAKERYes.

1:11:32SPEAKERLike you could say that about like, I'm trying to even like figure out how to define how

1:11:36SPEAKERbroadly that applies at this point.

1:11:38SPEAKERIt's not just emulation of video game consoles.

1:11:40SPEAKERIt's like, in some of these cases people would say, oh, that's not emulation, it's translation

1:11:43SPEAKERor whatever, but like graphics APIs, for example, you know, like being able to run, you know,

1:11:49SPEAKERthe things that are being done in spaces like, oh, taking DirectX nine, old, old DirectX

1:11:54SPEAKERnine games and translating that to like Vulcan or whatever it is that, you know, it's like

1:11:57SPEAKERDXVK projects that let you run old games for different graphics stacks on modern hardware,

1:12:03SPEAKERCPU instruction translation, like just kind of like up and down the number of, the number

1:12:08SPEAKERof ways to translate like old software into new, new runtimes is kind of crazy stuff.

1:12:13SPEAKERLike what Apple did moving arm, moving to arm processors with the M1 chips and running

1:12:20SPEAKERan x86 code on those proton is another, you know, great examples in cross platform emulation

1:12:27SPEAKERand translation.

1:12:28SPEAKERCross OS, cross API, cross instruction set, like people are just kind of like breaking

1:12:33SPEAKERbarriers and making software run all over the place in a way that's pretty awesome.

1:12:37SPEAKERPart of it is that the new hardware is really, really fast, but part of it is also that we've

1:12:40SPEAKERbeen doing this for a long time and have gotten good at, and there's business reasons to do

1:12:43SPEAKERit now, which means, you know, real resources.

1:12:46SPEAKERThe other thing I'll say is we've talked a lot about not so much on this podcast as on

1:12:52SPEAKERthe other one.

1:12:53SPEAKERWe've talked a lot about open source projects and like seeing the explosion of support and

1:12:59SPEAKERuse and usability for things like OBS and audacity and home assistant and these, these

1:13:05SPEAKERprojects that were, you know, home assistant was still fairly fledgling when we started

1:13:09SPEAKERthis podcast and I feel like, I mean, probably somebody who listens to the show will know

1:13:13SPEAKERbetter than I do at this point when I switched over, but it was, it was either just before,

1:13:17SPEAKERjust after we started this podcast that I switched from a Samsung, you know, smart home

1:13:24SPEAKERhub to a home assistant hub and the amount of compatibility and benefits and ease of

1:13:32SPEAKERuse of using that stuff.

1:13:34SPEAKEROnce I configured it, it was enormous.

1:13:36SPEAKERSo you know, shout outs to open source.

1:13:38SPEAKERYeah, like I was trying to think of a way to list something about open source stuff

1:13:41SPEAKERin here.

1:13:42SPEAKERI think, I think the way I would put it is like the ability to integrate open source

1:13:45SPEAKERprograms into your daily life is what's changed because obviously like open source has been

1:13:51SPEAKERaround as a concept for 30 something, probably more years at this point, but like it's only

1:13:56SPEAKERreally been in the last few years that like regular people could finally start buying

1:14:00SPEAKERraspberry pie and putting some things on there to just make their lives a little better,

1:14:03SPEAKERyou know, and kind of using that in place of commercial solutions.

1:14:06SPEAKERI think consumer open source has seen some real growth over the last six years is what

1:14:11SPEAKERI would probably say.

1:14:13SPEAKERAnd that does lead me to there's one last bullet point on here.

1:14:16SPEAKERI have not struck through yet.

1:14:17SPEAKERHere we go.

1:14:18SPEAKERI, in the last, since we started this podcast, I moved from FreeBSD to Linux on my home server

1:14:23SPEAKERslash NAS.

1:14:24SPEAKERSee, it's funny.

1:14:25SPEAKERI, in the last year I've moved from windows to Linux on my laptop.

1:14:29SPEAKERI think, I think the rise of Linux, Linux obviously had already risen, but Linux, Linux,

1:14:37SPEAKERLinux, we were, we were thought leaders on switching to Linux, Brad, I'm going to say

1:14:41SPEAKERmaybe I actually, I actually moved to Linux out of necessity.

1:14:43SPEAKERIt's when I got the older Lake in my NAS and FreeBSD because it's hardware support is not

1:14:47SPEAKERgreat compared to Linux because it's such a smaller project could not run on that older

1:14:52SPEAKERLake.

1:14:53SPEAKERI was like, well, I was like, well, my old NAS died and I got this older Lake to replace

1:14:57SPEAKERit and I guess, shit, now I have to move to Linux or, or turn off all the E-cores on this

1:15:01SPEAKERchip to make FreeBSD boot on it.

1:15:02SPEAKERSee, I, I switched to free, I switched from FreeBSD to Linux because I looked at my power

1:15:07SPEAKERbill as PG&E was starting to raise its energy prices.

1:15:11SPEAKERThey're not that different.

1:15:13SPEAKERThere's no, there was no power stepping on PTSD.

1:15:15SPEAKEROh, there absolutely is.

1:15:16SPEAKERThere 100% is.

1:15:17SPEAKERNow there is.

1:15:18SPEAKERNot then.

1:15:19SPEAKERThere was, there was back then.

1:15:20SPEAKERI have full bore all the time, baby.

1:15:21SPEAKERI ran a, I ran a power D-V back then and watched the C-states slowing up and down.

1:15:26SPEAKERAnyway.

1:15:27SPEAKERYeah.

1:15:28SPEAKERBut yeah, I, I feel like Linux is like stuff like the steam deck and those amber neck machines

1:15:33SPEAKERand all the little weird handhelds that, that people like us like to fool around with have

1:15:39SPEAKERdriven a lot of interest and knowledge in Linux that's starting to pay off in spades.

1:15:44SPEAKERYeah.

1:15:45SPEAKERYeah.

1:15:46SPEAKERRight.

1:15:47SPEAKERYou know, I will say though, it's like, I don't I don't fetishize Linux in any way.

1:15:49SPEAKERIt's just the one that is popular.

1:15:50SPEAKERIt's just the one that has all the support for it.

1:15:52SPEAKERSo it's the thing you use because it's the thing that can run everything you want to do.

1:15:55SPEAKERBut I'm actually going to, this is going to sound crazy, but I have started thinking more

1:15:59SPEAKERand more, and this is years away if it ever comes to pass, but more and more about what

1:16:03SPEAKERa post Linux world might look like, because there has been, there's particularly been

1:16:08SPEAKERenough drama in the kernel development community over the last couple, three years that like

1:16:14SPEAKERpeople who know people who were way more plugged into that scene than me have started talking

1:16:17SPEAKERabout like, you know, like the way that they run things over there, like they, they really

1:16:22SPEAKERneed to like adapt to the way that modern contributors want to work and like make sure

1:16:26SPEAKERthat they are not running people off from kernel contributions, because like, it's not

1:16:30SPEAKERinevitable that Linux is going to be on top of that space forever.

1:16:34SPEAKERWell, yeah, I mean, and like Linus, who's still the main maintainer on the kernel, right?

1:16:40SPEAKERIs not getting any younger at this point.

1:16:42SPEAKERHe's not getting any younger.

1:16:43SPEAKERBe his like time off to work on his behavior seems to have limited effect because he still

1:16:50SPEAKERmakes headlines for being incredibly rude to people on the kernel mailing list, like

1:16:54SPEAKERon a regular basis.

1:16:56SPEAKERThere's two types of open source maintainers and he's the, he's the kind that people don't

1:17:00SPEAKERlike.

1:17:01SPEAKERSo like, I mean, I don't need to get into the weeds too much cause I don't keep my finger

1:17:03SPEAKERon the pulse enough to really speak too intelligently about it.

1:17:06SPEAKERLike they did, they did adopt Rust into the kernel.

1:17:08SPEAKERLike they are technically allowing contributions written in Rust into the kernel, but also

1:17:12SPEAKERlike some maintainers really don't like that and have been really shitty toward people that

1:17:15SPEAKERwant to use Rust and that's run some people off from wanting to, to help contribute to

1:17:20SPEAKERLinux, stuff like that.

1:17:21SPEAKERYou know, it's like, look, we're going to see a fork where it's Linux kernel that's

1:17:24SPEAKERbuilt entirely on Rust and yeah, well, I mean, there is another, there is another there's

1:17:30SPEAKERan OS called Redix out there.

1:17:32SPEAKERYeah.

1:17:33SPEAKERI assume Redix, R-E-D-O-X it's, it's basically the reduction, redox.

1:17:39SPEAKERYeah.

1:17:40SPEAKERYeah.

1:17:41SPEAKERIt's, it's that oxidation reaction, you know, the thing that produces Rust.

1:17:44SPEAKERYeah.

1:17:45SPEAKERThat's funny.

1:17:46SPEAKERWho is the, who is the guy who is the, I hope his name is Rusty.

1:17:49SPEAKERNo, there's a guy who was the Linus Torvalds of that thing.

1:17:52SPEAKERAnd I can't remember.

1:17:53SPEAKERHe works, he has a day job for somebody, somebody, somebody, oh, I think it might be system 76.

1:17:59SPEAKERYeah.

1:18:00SPEAKERProbably.

1:18:01SPEAKERYeah.

1:18:02SPEAKERI was gonna say working for, for probably Cisco or systems have 76 makers pop OS and

1:18:06SPEAKERthe laptop hardware.

1:18:07SPEAKERWell, they do desktops too, but yeah, let me, let me confirm that.

1:18:10SPEAKERYes.

1:18:11SPEAKERThat's right.

1:18:12SPEAKERIsn't it?

1:18:13SPEAKERJeremy Soller is his name.

1:18:14SPEAKERHe's a Linux engineer, but anyway, redox is an open, an open source Unix-like written

1:18:18SPEAKERentirely in Rust, for example.

1:18:20SPEAKERSo like there are other OSs out there that, you know, I don't think Linux is going anywhere

1:18:24SPEAKERtomorrow, but like, I don't take it as absolutely set in stone that it will always be the thing

1:18:31SPEAKERout there.

1:18:32SPEAKERI think there's a really interesting, like, I think, I think the whole Linux scene is

1:18:37SPEAKERreally interesting.

1:18:39SPEAKERAnd, and for me, I look at things like the way other companies interact with Linux, like

1:18:47SPEAKERSlack ships Linux binaries now, right?

1:18:50SPEAKERSlack ships a Debian and a Red Hat version of their, of their application of their Electron

1:18:55SPEAKERapp.

1:18:56SPEAKERThat's just, you could just double click and install on Linux.

1:19:00SPEAKERDiscord ships flat packs, right?

1:19:05SPEAKERIt's all of these soft, all this software that they, that 10, when we started this podcast,

1:19:09SPEAKERthe answer would have probably been, yeah, just use it in the web.

1:19:11SPEAKERIt's a web app.

1:19:12SPEAKERYou can use it in the web, use it in your browser.

1:19:13SPEAKERDon't we don't know.

1:19:14SPEAKERWe're not going to support Linux is now a, you know, Hey, we're supporting Linux.

1:19:20SPEAKEREvery game that ships on steam has to make a conscious decision about whether they want

1:19:24SPEAKERto support Linux or not support Linux either natively or through emulation.

1:19:28SPEAKERAnd like, that's wild to me that w that like, after having tried this and failed 10 years

1:19:34SPEAKERago now, we're in a place where there's a button on every steam page that says, yeah,

1:19:39SPEAKERthis will work fine on your Linux machine.

1:19:42SPEAKERThat's crazy.

1:19:43SPEAKERIt's wild.

1:19:44SPEAKERI mean, yes, that is a bit, in fact, I don't have the headline in front of me.

1:19:46SPEAKERI don't, I'm not sure if I've got this exactly right, but I saw that Linux has achieved 5%

1:19:51SPEAKERmarket share somewhere.

1:19:52SPEAKERIt might've been the steam survey.

1:19:53SPEAKERIt was steam DB.

1:19:54SPEAKERI think steam hardware survey.

1:19:57SPEAKERLike the Linux has broken the 5% barrier of steam users.

1:20:02SPEAKERSo I'm looking not nothing.

1:20:04SPEAKERI'm looking right now at the OS version windows is in the lead with 95.2, 3%.

1:20:12SPEAKERSo I don't think it's here.

1:20:14SPEAKEROS 10 is 1.8, 8% and Linux is 2.8, 9%.

1:20:20SPEAKERAnd just to be clear only 0.3% of that is arch Linux.

1:20:24SPEAKERSo there's no, it's not like it's all steam decks.

1:20:27SPEAKERYeah.

1:20:28SPEAKERRight.

1:20:29SPEAKERIt's like arch Linux is number one, which is steam decks.

1:20:33SPEAKERLinux mint 22 is number two 24 oh four is number three.

1:20:39SPEAKERUbuntu core 22 is a four manjaro endeavor, fedora, Debian fedora.

1:20:46SPEAKERIn that order?

1:20:47SPEAKERYeah.

1:20:48SPEAKERIn that order.

1:20:49SPEAKERReally?

1:20:50SPEAKERWell, so manjaro with you that high manjaro has easy proton support.

1:20:54SPEAKERSo like you see things like cashy and manjaro and endeavor because they, they make easy

1:21:01SPEAKERone click installs for all the stuff you need to make steam good on Linux.

1:21:05SPEAKEROf course.

1:21:06SPEAKERThat's interesting.

1:21:07SPEAKERMint is by far the one just looking at like random blue sky threads that I see get recommended

1:21:11SPEAKERthe most to newcomers.

1:21:13SPEAKERMint and pop OS are the ones that people generally recommend to newcomers from coming from windows.

1:21:17SPEAKERYeah.

1:21:18SPEAKERInteresting to see that that actually has manifested in stats anyway.

1:21:20SPEAKERYeah, like, like proliferation of Linux and open source is another huge change since we

1:21:24SPEAKERstarted this podcast.

1:21:25SPEAKERI mean, obviously they were out there before, but they, it feels like they have become much

1:21:28SPEAKERmore mainstream.

1:21:29SPEAKERYep.

1:21:30SPEAKERUh, other, other fun things on the steam hardware server while I'm looking at this, uh, the

1:21:35SPEAKERnumber one VR headset is the Oculus quest two with 32% 33% of the overall market.

1:21:42SPEAKERAnd then the valve index is number two with 17%.

1:21:45SPEAKERAnd then it's a bunch of like meta quest threes and three S's and rifts and, uh, HTC vibes

1:21:51SPEAKERand windows mixed reality and stuff down the line.

1:21:53SPEAKERSo yeah.

1:21:54SPEAKERWell, I have struck, I've struck through our last bullet points.

1:21:58SPEAKERSo I think that's literally everything that's happened in the last six years.

1:22:00SPEAKERYeah.

1:22:01SPEAKERDid we get it?

1:22:02SPEAKERDid anything else come to mind while we were talking, you know, never stop talking is what

1:22:05SPEAKERwe always say here at that Brad and Will made a tech bod.

1:22:08SPEAKERThat's right.

1:22:09SPEAKERThat's the motto.

1:22:10SPEAKERYep.

1:22:11SPEAKERBut I think that's probably brings us to the end of the show, um, as always Brad and Will

1:22:16SPEAKERmade a tech pod is a listener supported show.

1:22:19SPEAKERWe wouldn't be here.

1:22:20SPEAKERWouldn't if it weren't for you, the listener.

1:22:23SPEAKERSo while you're yelling at your car and screaming at your friends, please tell your friends

1:22:27SPEAKERabout the show.

1:22:28SPEAKERWe appreciate that a lot.

1:22:29SPEAKERWe sure do.

1:22:30SPEAKERUm, but we also appreciate if you support the show financially, uh, through the magic

1:22:34SPEAKERof Patrion, uh, you can go to patrion.com/tech pod and where for $5 a month, you can buy

1:22:39SPEAKERaccess to the fabulous tech pod discord and also our monthly Patrion exclusive episode

1:22:45SPEAKERwhere we talk about, uh, well, you know, topics of interest that maybe aren't of interest

1:22:50SPEAKERenough to do a full episode about, um, I don't know what we're going to do this month.

1:22:54SPEAKERWe got, we got, I'm going camping.

1:22:56SPEAKERMaybe we can talk about camping tech.

1:22:58SPEAKERThat sounds fun.

1:22:59SPEAKERYeah.

1:23:00SPEAKERI would talk about that.

1:23:01SPEAKEROh, wait, sorry.

1:23:02SPEAKERUh, next week.

1:23:03SPEAKERYeah.

1:23:04SPEAKERSome have the important housekeeping business here.

1:23:05SPEAKEROh yeah.

1:23:06SPEAKERNext week.

1:23:07SPEAKERI was very excited when I realized this earlier.

1:23:09SPEAKERNext week.

1:23:10SPEAKERYou mean, uh, the episode that will be up on the 24th of August, 25 next week's episode

1:23:15SPEAKERthat posts on, on the 24th of August happens to be running on the exact 30th anniversary

1:23:21SPEAKERof windows 95, August 25th, 20, 25, uh, 24th, 24th, 24th.

1:23:28SPEAKEROkay.

1:23:29SPEAKEROkay.

1:23:30SPEAKERVery good.

1:23:31SPEAKERYes.

1:23:32SPEAKERSo you know what we will be doing this podcast about next week.

1:23:33SPEAKERI'm going to do, I think we both should come prepared to sing Brian Eno's opening chime.

1:23:38SPEAKERHmm.

1:23:39SPEAKEROkay.

1:23:40SPEAKERAll right.

1:23:41SPEAKERI'll, I'll get some rehearsal in for that.

1:23:43SPEAKERI was going to say maybe I think we should maybe both install it in a VM and poke around

1:23:47SPEAKERa little bit.

1:23:48SPEAKERI haven't installed in a VM, sir.

1:23:50SPEAKERI've got, I've got windows 98 installed, but not 95.

1:23:53SPEAKERCan I do OSR too, or do I have to do stock?

1:23:55SPEAKERYeah.

1:23:56SPEAKERActually I might, you can do whatever you want.

1:23:59SPEAKERI might actually install launch day, windows 95.

1:24:02SPEAKEROr without.

1:24:03SPEAKERUh, I think I bought plus when I bought windows 95.

1:24:07SPEAKERI don't think I had plus as I recall.

1:24:10SPEAKERI had the pinball game plus did, I feel like there was like one thing we should save this

1:24:14SPEAKERfor next week.

1:24:15SPEAKERThis is content for next week.

1:24:16SPEAKERDon't burn the pod.

1:24:17SPEAKERIf you have any, if you, the listener have anything windows 95 related, you want us to

1:24:21SPEAKERknow or look into or anything, please let us know on discord before next week or send

1:24:25SPEAKERit to tech pod@content.town and I'll look at the email before we do the episode next

1:24:29SPEAKERweek.

1:24:30SPEAKERThat's here.

1:24:31SPEAKERUm, but yeah, so thanks to everybody who supports the show.

1:24:33SPEAKERUh, the address again is patreon.com/techpod, uh, putting that in the middle of the end

1:24:39SPEAKERof the show, probably we might want to post some stuff on socials and things like that

1:24:43SPEAKERas well.

1:24:44SPEAKERUm, so thanks to everybody who supports us.

1:24:46SPEAKERWe really appreciate it.

1:24:47SPEAKERAnd if you can't support us financially, leave a review on iTunes or Spotify or wherever,

1:24:51SPEAKERwherever you listen to your podcast, Deezer, I guess Deezer, we're on Deezer.

1:24:55SPEAKERUm, and a very special thank you goes out to our executive producer, to your patrons,

1:25:00SPEAKERincluding Jason Lee, Andrew Slosky, Jordan Lippett, Bunny Fiend, Twinkle Twinkie, David

1:25:06SPEAKERAllen, James Kammack, and Pantheon makers of the HS3 high speed 3d printer, Brad, 300

1:25:12SPEAKERepisodes.

1:25:13SPEAKERWell, it's a lot.

1:25:14SPEAKER301 episodes.

1:25:15SPEAKERThat's a lot.

1:25:16SPEAKERWe've come a long way.

1:25:17SPEAKERYeah.

1:25:18SPEAKERPlus some patron episodes, plus, you know, other podcasts here and there.

1:25:21SPEAKERWe've spent a lot of time talking to each other over the last six years.

1:25:24SPEAKERWe sure have.

1:25:25SPEAKERWe sure have.

1:25:26SPEAKERYeah.

1:25:27SPEAKERYeah.

1:25:28SPEAKERBut, um, I'll do it for another 300 episodes if you're in.

1:25:29SPEAKERYeah.

1:25:30SPEAKERUh, thanks everybody again for listening.

1:25:32SPEAKERThanks for supporting us for 300 episodes.

1:25:35SPEAKERWe will be back next week with another edition of the tech pod and until then, please consider

1:25:39SPEAKERthe environment before printing this podcast.