264: Will's Congressman's Enormous Wang

00:00SPEAKERI, you know, it's possible. I did a little light food poisoning this weekend.

00:04SPEAKERYou did a little, like to yourself?

00:06SPEAKERLike sometimes wounds are self-inflicted. We hurt the ones we love the most.

00:11SPEAKERYes, I get it.

00:12SPEAKERI, you know, maybe it was Monday and I was like, I could go for a snack.

00:17SPEAKERAnd the Thanksgiving leftovers were still in the fridge.

00:20SPEAKEROh no.

00:21SPEAKERAnd I thought it was Sunday or maybe, you know, I was, the time's a little

00:24SPEAKERfungible over the long weekend when you don't go back to work until Tuesday usually.

00:29SPEAKERHang on. Thanksgiving was only Thursday.

00:32SPEAKERYeah.

00:32SPEAKERWe're talking leftovers of maybe 72 hours in age, right?

00:35SPEAKERFriday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.

00:38SPEAKEROh, Monday. Okay. Yeah. 96 hours.

00:40SPEAKERYeah. And look, I made a big old plate of sides and put some gravy on it and gobbled it all up.

00:47SPEAKERAnd then strangely enough at like one o'clock in the morning on Sunday and Monday night,

00:53SPEAKERI didn't feel too, I didn't feel like, I didn't feel bad, but I definitely didn't feel good.

00:58SPEAKERDid you eat it cold?

00:59SPEAKERNo, I warmed it up, but food poisoning doesn't work that way.

01:03SPEAKERThe food, the food, the, the reason for what kind, right?

01:06SPEAKERSo this, I didn't realize this until fairly recently, but there's a food safety podcast

01:11SPEAKERthat I listen to occasionally that is, that they talk about this.

01:17SPEAKERFood poisoning is when things are growing in your food that excrete

01:21SPEAKERthings that are toxic for you most of the time.

01:23SPEAKERI've heard this.

01:24SPEAKERAnd so thus when you heat up food that has things growing in it,

01:28SPEAKERyou kill the things that are producing the toxin, but the toxins remain.

01:32SPEAKERBut not their poop.

01:33SPEAKERThe poop, the poop is still there.

01:35SPEAKERThe poison poop.

01:36SPEAKERYeah. All the, all the, all the excreted cyto blasts are, are still there blasting your guts.

01:42SPEAKERSo is that universal?

01:43SPEAKERCause I have definitely heard that before, but I assumed that some food poisoning was

01:46SPEAKERcaused by the actual microbes and others was based on the excretions, but is it all the latter?

01:51SPEAKERSo I don't think it's food poisoning.

01:52SPEAKERI think you just get an infection if you eat something that's infectious.

01:56SPEAKERFor example, if you drink raw milk, then in California, you can get H5N1,

02:03SPEAKERwhich is the bird flu virus and is really like, you don't want that.

02:05SPEAKERAvoid that.

02:06SPEAKERYeah, the gift that keeps giving.

02:07SPEAKERYeah.

02:08SPEAKERBut you can get that by ingesting contaminated food, like unpasteurized milk.

02:14SPEAKERSo this is, this is one of the reasons that a hundred years ago we were like 150 years ago,

02:18SPEAKERwe were like, you know, what's good?

02:20SPEAKERPasteurization. It kills all of the things that, that, that

02:23SPEAKERkill a lot of people from foodborne illnesses.

02:25SPEAKERSo food poisoning is eating food that poisons you.

02:29SPEAKERFoodborne illnesses are eating foods that make you sick.

02:31SPEAKERI see.

02:33SPEAKERYeah.

02:33SPEAKERI see.

02:34SPEAKERI see.

02:35SPEAKERI see.

02:50SPEAKERWelcome to Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod.

03:07SPEAKERI'm Will.

03:07SPEAKERI'm Brad.

03:08SPEAKERHello.

03:09SPEAKERThe podcast is called Food Safety Talk.

03:11SPEAKERIt has Don and Ben.

03:12SPEAKERThey talk about food safety and like micro, it's, it's like the kind of stuff you get in

03:18SPEAKERmicrobiology if you take that in college, like you, you get a little taste of that there.

03:22SPEAKERThey're very good.

03:23SPEAKERSure.

03:23SPEAKERFood safety is a good thing to talk about on a show called Food Safety Talk.

03:27SPEAKERI mean, look, it is exactly what you have there.

03:29SPEAKERA little, their logo is a thermometer with a line and the temperature is above the top

03:34SPEAKERline of the thermometer.

03:35SPEAKERCause like they talk about like food safety, like safety ranges for pasteurizing food and

03:38SPEAKERstuff like that.

03:39SPEAKEROf course.

03:40SPEAKERHave they done an episode about room temperature rice?

03:43SPEAKERThey've done 314 episodes, 317 episodes.

03:46SPEAKERI'm assuming they have done an episode about anything.

03:50SPEAKERLike they do question and answer episodes.

03:51SPEAKERI'd sent questions in a few times.

03:53SPEAKERShit.

03:53SPEAKERThey're out of us by like 50 episodes.

03:55SPEAKERYeah, I know they started this around the same time we did.

03:57SPEAKERI think maybe a little before.

03:59SPEAKERWell, I assume you have seen, not to just derail the podcast right from the top.

04:02SPEAKERI assume you've seen the controversy about leftover rice.

04:06SPEAKEROh, look, people are crazy about rice, man.

04:09SPEAKERLike what is it?

04:10SPEAKERIs you leave it out of room temperature.

04:11SPEAKERIt grows something that will instantly murder your entire family.

04:15SPEAKERBasically it was my understanding.

04:16SPEAKERIs this a real thing or is this like the fans?

04:18SPEAKERI don't know.

04:19SPEAKERI really don't know.

04:20SPEAKERI can tell you though, that we have eaten a tremendous amount of leftover rice around

04:24SPEAKERhere.

04:24SPEAKERWould I always take it right out of the rice cooker and then put it directly in the fridge?

04:28SPEAKERI think that's the recommendation.

04:29SPEAKERYeah.

04:30SPEAKERI don't know if that I don't look, we're not food safety people.

04:33SPEAKERIf you want to know the answer to this, go to food safety, talk the podcast for food

04:36SPEAKERsafety people.

04:37SPEAKERExactly.

04:38SPEAKERIf you want to talk about Pat Gelsinger retiring from Intel surprise, like in a surprise

04:42SPEAKERannouncement and also what the hell's up with word pad.

04:47SPEAKERThis is the podcast for you.

04:48SPEAKERThat's right.

04:49SPEAKERWe may not be food safety experts.

04:50SPEAKERWe're definitely technology experts.

04:52SPEAKERWe've got a twofer today for you today.

04:56SPEAKERWell, we had two things that I think initially like this always happens when we do a twofer

05:00SPEAKERis we say, oh, these aren't big enough for an episode on their own.

05:02SPEAKERAnd then we go and write like 15 pages of notes and here we are.

05:07SPEAKERSo you want to do Intel first?

05:09SPEAKERYou want to do, okay.

05:11SPEAKERThis is the big news.

05:11SPEAKERI think I started to say that's the big story of the week.

05:14SPEAKERLet's let's say within a narrow sphere of technology news, that's the big story.

05:18SPEAKERAnd I would say there's other stuff going on out there.

05:20SPEAKERYeah.

05:21SPEAKERSo Pat Gelsinger came back to Intel in 2021, I think 2022 as kind of the savior of Intel.

05:29SPEAKERLike they've had, they've had woes.

05:30SPEAKERThey've had some problems.

05:32SPEAKERThey had, you know, the Raptor lakes refresh and having to release the same processor twice

05:36SPEAKERwith clocked up cores, three times really with clocked up cores was a real kind of black eye.

05:42SPEAKERAnd they've been getting their asses kicked by Nvidia in like the AI stuff.

05:47SPEAKERThe AMD is rising in consumer.

05:50SPEAKERIt's not been a good time for AMD.

05:52SPEAKERAnd they brought Pat in on this in let's see where I wrote it down here somewhere, but

05:59SPEAKERthey brought Pat in with the idea that he had a core strategy and the core strategy was

06:03SPEAKERthey were going to do five nodes, meaning five new processes in four years and regain

06:08SPEAKERtechnological expertise in manufacturing, as well as manufacturing Intel chips, as well

06:15SPEAKERas becoming as their foundry business, their chip manufacturing business, becoming a U.S.

06:22SPEAKERbased leader in contract chip manufacturing that can compete with TSMC.

06:27SPEAKERPeople don't know TSMC is Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company, I think.

06:31SPEAKERYes, I believe that's right.

06:33SPEAKERAnd they make literally 60 percent of all chips and 90 percent of advanced process chips.

06:41SPEAKERSo advanced process chips are things like CPUs, GPUs, anything that uses like a novel

06:46SPEAKERnew really high density process manufacturing process for chips.

06:52SPEAKERSo anything that needs to be very efficient, like what's in your phone or on data center

06:57SPEAKERblades.

06:59SPEAKERYeah, it's small and fast.

07:01SPEAKERYes, is the thing that they do.

07:04SPEAKERAnd so Intel led process technology for 40 years.

07:08SPEAKERTSMC kind of came up and scooped up all the ARM business and all the GPU business over

07:12SPEAKERthe years.

07:14SPEAKERAnd Gelsinger came in as a person who joined Intel when they were 18 years old with an

07:23SPEAKERassociate's degree and wrote books about programming the 386 and was the lead architect of the 486.

07:31SPEAKERWow.

07:32SPEAKERWas he really?

07:32SPEAKERSo I've known about his book.

07:34SPEAKERIn fact, I've got it.

07:34SPEAKERYou still order from Amazon.

07:36SPEAKERWell, they don't have new copies anymore, but programming the 8386.

07:41SPEAKERYeah, they still put the 80 in front of the processor names back then.

07:44SPEAKERMy understanding is that's like kind of the book about x86 assembly of that era.

07:49SPEAKERWell, yeah, and if you think about it, so the 386 was the beginning of Intel had dominance

07:55SPEAKERin the early PC era, the 8-bit and 16-bit eras with the 8088 and the 286, but the 386

08:03SPEAKERis the beginning of modern Windows.

08:05SPEAKER386 was what ran Windows 95.

08:07SPEAKERYeah, first 32-bit CPU from them, right?

08:10SPEAKERFirst 32-bit CPU was the first time.

08:11SPEAKERI guess they had a math coprocessor to do floating point math with the 286 that was

08:17SPEAKERthe 287, but the 386 had a math coprocessor as well.

08:21SPEAKERAnd it was the beginning of Intel, like the Wintel hegemony, right?

08:26SPEAKERYes.

08:27SPEAKERSo Pat left in 2009.

08:29SPEAKERHe joined a different company, ended up being the CEO of VMware.

08:33SPEAKERYeah, wow, shit.

08:34SPEAKERI didn't realize he ran VMware for like a decade.

08:36SPEAKERYeah, and then they brought him back in 2021 for a second go round.

08:43SPEAKERWhen he pitched his case for being the CEO of Intel, his strategy was, "We have to be

08:50SPEAKERgood at making stuff, and we have to be able to make stuff for everybody in the world."

08:54SPEAKERWe need to build a competitive infrastructure so that if Samsung or Nvidia or Apple want

09:00SPEAKERto buy an advanced process node chip, we want them to be able to consider building it on

09:06SPEAKERIntel processes, not just TSMC processes.

09:09SPEAKERSo anyway, on the second, which was I think Sunday, is that right?

09:13SPEAKERNo, Monday, as I was eating six day old stuffing and food poisoning myself, Pat announced he

09:22SPEAKERwas retiring.

09:23SPEAKERAnd in the time since 2021, now there's a couple of things, we'll talk about some of

09:28SPEAKERthis later, but it takes a long time to build new fabs.

09:32SPEAKERAnd it takes a long time to design new processes.

09:35SPEAKERAnd there's two different reasons that those things are hard.

09:37SPEAKERWe'll talk about them a little bit.

09:38SPEAKERYeah, real quick, can I jump in?

09:40SPEAKERWhen you say process, we're talking about a process node in the sense of fabricating

09:46SPEAKERa chip, not the generic term of process, which just means a way of doing things, correct?

09:50SPEAKERYeah, so process in the chip design state means building a node with components of a

09:57SPEAKERspecific size, and that indicates the density that you can have chips on the die.

10:02SPEAKERSo in the last 30 years, we've gone from micrometer sized circuits to angstrom sized

10:11SPEAKERcircuits, orders of magnitude smaller.

10:14SPEAKERBeen in the nanometer era for quite a while now, but I guess Intel is the one who would

10:19SPEAKERsay we're moving into the angstrom era, right?

10:21SPEAKERI mean, I think that's their intent, but whether they actually are or not, Intel built

10:28SPEAKERtheir entire business on being better at shrinking processes, getting smaller and smaller circuits

10:33SPEAKERfaster than anybody else.

10:35SPEAKERAnd that stopped mattering as much in the last few years.

10:39SPEAKERAnd that's why we're seeing things like disaggregated chip designs where the compute

10:44SPEAKERstuff is on the really, really super advanced process.

10:46SPEAKERAnd the kind of housekeeping stuff that does memory control and all that stuff is on less

10:52SPEAKERexpensive process nodes so that they're not spending as much money building those chips.

10:56SPEAKERSo anyway, my understanding real quick, I'll just say, I mean, you know, obviously we are

10:59SPEAKERnot fabrication specialists here, but the process isn't just transistor size.

11:03SPEAKERIt all also includes like specific techniques.

11:06SPEAKERYou know, UV lithography is a term I have seen many times about some of the smaller

11:12SPEAKERprocesses lately.

11:12SPEAKERYou know, like they're different kinds of like a material science techniques to help

11:16SPEAKERthem continue to shrink things smaller and smaller, right?

11:19SPEAKERYeah.

11:19SPEAKERIt's everything from how you make the silicon disks that start out.

11:24SPEAKERSometimes we're not even using silicon as the substrate anymore.

11:26SPEAKERSometimes we're just using glass now, right?

11:28SPEAKERTo how the circuits are etched onto the semiconductor, how the semiconductor chips are

11:34SPEAKERattached to other chips inside the package.

11:38SPEAKERAnd it is a phenomenally complicated topic that, you know, there's a reason there's two

11:46SPEAKERor three companies in the world that do this.

11:47SPEAKERSamsung and TSMC and Intel and Global Foundries are pretty much it, right?

11:53SPEAKERBecause I mean, like when you get down to it, the process or the process of shrinking

11:57SPEAKERprocesses is kind of a process of defying physics, right?

12:01SPEAKERLike you're constantly fighting with electricity at tiny, tiny scales and trying to prevent,

12:06SPEAKERI assume, trying to present prevent like single drift or electrical drift across very, very

12:11SPEAKERtiny bits of metal, right?

12:12SPEAKERSo it encompasses, it encompasses material science because like how you, how you build

12:18SPEAKERthose, those, those bulls that you then slice the disks off of and how you then treat the

12:23SPEAKERdisks and how you like the machines, the manufacturing that has to happen to build the machines that

12:29SPEAKERcan build the machines is incredibly complicated.

12:32SPEAKERAnd, and then of course there's like inside a fab, you have to have no, you know, you

12:38SPEAKERhave to have humans able to walk around without spreading lint and detritus and dead skin

12:43SPEAKERflakes and all the things that humans are just constantly sloughing off.

12:46SPEAKERSo it's like, it's, it's, it is, you know, we talk about the space program and stuff

12:51SPEAKERlike that as being miracles of modern science and going to the moon, but in reality, building

12:56SPEAKERa a processor that holds 6 billion circuits at 6 billion transistors on it is, is an incredible

13:03SPEAKERachievement on the same scale.

13:04SPEAKERAnd we do that every 18 months.

13:06SPEAKERSize of like your thumbnail now or something.

13:10SPEAKERThey're tiny.

13:11SPEAKERYeah.

13:11SPEAKERI feel like it's, it's worth talking about kind of what state Intel was in prior to his

13:15SPEAKERreturn, or at least from our perspective, I mean, it's a huge company with, you know,

13:19SPEAKERrevenue streams that coming every which way, you know, we mostly care about like desktop

13:23SPEAKERand laptop processors and stuff, but.

13:25SPEAKERBut those are a tiny part of the market.

13:26SPEAKERWell, desktop is a tiny part of the market.

13:28SPEAKERLaptops are big.

13:29SPEAKERYeah.

13:30SPEAKERAlthough, although you can look at their the processor lineup in that time as sort of being

13:35SPEAKERemblematic of where their process technology was.

13:37SPEAKERRight.

13:38SPEAKERYeah.

13:38SPEAKERSo, so there's multiple product lines.

13:41SPEAKERIt's, it's, it's really complicated.

13:42SPEAKERIt's kind of beyond the scope of what we're talking about here today.

13:45SPEAKERBut, but they had written, like I said, for 40 years, the shrinking process nodes that

13:49SPEAKERthey were good at.

13:50SPEAKERAnd then with those shrunken process nodes, you get more, more compute power for less

13:56SPEAKERpower consumption and higher clock speeds.

13:58SPEAKERAnd, you know, they, we, we went through eras where we were doing really, really high clock

14:02SPEAKERspeeds on single thread machines.

14:04SPEAKERAnd then we added two threads to those machines.

14:06SPEAKERAnd then we got started packing cores in as fast as we could.

14:09SPEAKERAnd, you know, we got to the point that Intel was shipping 24 core plus machines to consumers.

14:16SPEAKERAnd things were things, things, like I said, things were continuing to well, the, the,

14:20SPEAKERas we say at PC world, the bigger bar is better.

14:23SPEAKERThe bars were kept getting bigger on the benchmark charts, but power consumption was going up.

14:28SPEAKERAnd, and the market was changing around them.

14:31SPEAKERSo ARM had taken off and was driving power consumption way down with comparable compute

14:36SPEAKERin a lot of cases.

14:38SPEAKERAnd AMD had switched to these disaggregated chip designs where they had the compute and

14:43SPEAKERthe memory control and all the different bits and pieces that make a CPU, a CPU on different

14:47SPEAKERchips that were packaged up under one heat spreader.

14:50SPEAKERAnd, and they were losing that kind of performance dominance, or they were having to do things

14:55SPEAKERlike really juice clock speeds and voltages to maintain their, their performance dominance.

15:01SPEAKERWe, we, I mean, we've, I've, I've, Gordon had PC world and maximum PC before that has

15:06SPEAKERjoked for years that you'd never get fired for buying Intel.

15:10SPEAKERBut in a data center context where the, the amount of compute you can pack in for the

15:16SPEAKERamount of cooling you have and the amount of wattage coming into the data center meant

15:20SPEAKERthat sometimes Intel wasn't the right answer.

15:22SPEAKEROften Intel wasn't the right answer.

15:24SPEAKERAnd that was a place that they weren't accustomed to being.

15:27SPEAKERAnd, and as a result, their market share was decreasing and they were seeing AMD chipping,

15:33SPEAKERbut AMD, but really more Nvidia chipping away at their computing.

15:38SPEAKERAnd also, I mean, I think we don't really like generative AI stuff here, but the amount

15:44SPEAKERof compute they didn't have a product that was, that was generating the same amount of

15:49SPEAKERcompute as Nvidia was capable of with their, with their AI chips with Blackwell and the

15:55SPEAKERstuff that they've been doing over there.

15:56SPEAKERSo, yeah.

15:57SPEAKERYeah.

15:57SPEAKERI mean, you know, obviously I don't, I don't, I'm not like a semiconductor market analyst

16:00SPEAKERor anything like that, but my impression is that at least from the investor perspective,

16:04SPEAKERlike they kind of, they missed the boat on ARM.

16:06SPEAKERThey missed the boat on machine learning.

16:08SPEAKERLike they missed the boat on data center to an extent.

16:10SPEAKERThey got laptops.

16:12SPEAKERYeah.

16:12SPEAKERLaptops seemed to be doing well.

16:14SPEAKERBut it was, it was kind of, that was kind of the position.

16:16SPEAKERSo, and the other thing real quick, just to touch on the desktop stuff.

16:20SPEAKERAnd like I said, the period right before he came back, I looked it up just now.

16:23SPEAKERSkylake came out in 2015.

16:25SPEAKERYeah.

16:26SPEAKERAnd Skylake, I had one, like I, I mean, what I remember perfectly fine ship, but then cue

16:32SPEAKERlike what, five years of what people really looked at as stagnation, where the process

16:37SPEAKERkind of stuck on the same node was a 14 nanometer for a long time.

16:41SPEAKERI think it was 14, 20 and 14 for a long time.

16:43SPEAKERYeah.

16:44SPEAKERAnd that was the period when AMD was really down right before they kind of got rising

16:47SPEAKERoff the ground and, and good.

16:49SPEAKERIt was a tough period, right?

16:51SPEAKERLike the Intel was shipping really reliable machines, but it wasn't, we weren't seeing

16:55SPEAKERenormous performance gains anymore.

16:57SPEAKERIt was like, I remember for like two, three years, you were seeing like, it was like single

17:00SPEAKERdigit performance increase from one Intel generation to the next.

17:04SPEAKERAnd like our consumption, like you said, was just going up.

17:07SPEAKERLike it was, it was not a period of rapid technical innovation on their side.

17:11SPEAKERNo.

17:11SPEAKERAnd then, and then like a lot of people are asking, the enthusiast community is asking

17:16SPEAKERif the Raptor Lake, the 13th and 14th gen problems that they've had for enthusiasts

17:21SPEAKERcaused this.

17:21SPEAKERAnd it's absolutely not the case.

17:22SPEAKERLike no one, no one got fired because of the 13th and 14th gen had problems.

17:27SPEAKERYeah.

17:28SPEAKERI mean, you know, it did not help their brand image.

17:29SPEAKERLet's say that.

17:30SPEAKERBut, but it's, it's like such a tiny slice of the market.

17:33SPEAKERIt's like, it's a slice of the market that if they lost entirely, they wouldn't care

17:36SPEAKERabout.

17:37SPEAKERRight.

17:37SPEAKERRight.

17:38SPEAKERLike, like does the business world care that this happened?

17:40SPEAKERProbably not, not terribly.

17:41SPEAKERCause it only affected the, really the enthusiast CPUs for the most part.

17:45SPEAKERYeah.

17:45SPEAKERSo anyway so on the second, he announced the, you know, the Intel put a release out that

17:51SPEAKERsaid he was retiring.

17:53SPEAKERHe's being replaced temporarily by David Zinsner and Michelle Johnson, Holthaus, MJ

18:01SPEAKERHolthaus as co-CEOs.

18:04SPEAKERAnd then Holthaus is also the co, the CEO of Intel products now, which I believe is

18:09SPEAKERa CPU.

18:10SPEAKERLike the, the it's, it's the things that they sell, not the things that they manufacture.

18:17SPEAKERAnd like, it's a, it's a shocking announcement.

18:20SPEAKERThere's no, they didn't give a reason.

18:22SPEAKERI have the, I have the note open here.

18:26SPEAKERBut they just said, Hey, Intel announced that CEO Pat Gelsinger retired from the company

18:32SPEAKERafter a distinguished 40 year plus career and a step down from the board of directors

18:36SPEAKEReffective December 1, 2184.

18:38SPEAKERWhich to me says there's like three or four reasons that CEOs leave companies like this,

18:42SPEAKERright?

18:43SPEAKEROne is that something, something bad wrong health wise.

18:48SPEAKEROne is that the board doesn't have confidence.

18:50SPEAKERThe board or the investor, large group of investors don't have confidence in them

18:53SPEAKERanymore.

18:54SPEAKERAnd the other is that a family member or something is something bad has happened and

18:58SPEAKERthey, they need to deal with personal stuff rather than, rather than, you know, take a

19:03SPEAKER90 hour a week job as the CEO of this, you know, multi-billion dollar company.

19:07SPEAKERRight.

19:08SPEAKERSo I hope it's, I hope it's like, it sounds bad.

19:10SPEAKERI hope this, the board or some investors ran him off and he doesn't have health problems

19:14SPEAKERbecause he seems like an absolute, like a pretty decent guy.

19:17SPEAKERYeah.

19:17SPEAKERYeah.

19:17SPEAKERI mean, I don't know.

19:18SPEAKERThe vote of no confidence seems like the likely scenario here based on how things have been

19:22SPEAKERgoing and based on the impatience of investors generally.

19:26SPEAKERYeah.

19:27SPEAKERSo we, we didn't, we didn't talk, we, the, the full nerd this week, we had we had somebody

19:33SPEAKERin from the, from the ARC group, the Intel ARC group to talk about ARC scheduled for

19:38SPEAKERwhat it's worth scheduled before this announcement was made.

19:41SPEAKERI was gonna say, I wonder how the GPU team feels about doing press for their new graphics

19:45SPEAKERcard in the middle of all this.

19:47SPEAKERWe asked and he gave the, he gave, Tom gave a very well-trained answer.

19:53SPEAKERBut, but Tom Peterson tap Intel tap is, is, is how people know him on Twitter.

19:58SPEAKERHe he's very forthright about where they are with graphics and his, it was good.

20:02SPEAKERIt was a good chat.

20:02SPEAKERIt's worth watching if you want to go over to YouTube and hit that or put it in your

20:05SPEAKERpodcast reader.

20:06SPEAKERBut like they're not it's, it's, it's, it's unfortunate because it's kind of like if you're

20:16SPEAKERa sports team and your team sucks and you hire a new coach and the new coach does like,

20:24SPEAKERyou know, hires like one or two people and then has two seasons and then they don't,

20:28SPEAKERthey're not immediately winning all the games again.

20:30SPEAKERAnd you sack them because they're not winners after two years.

20:33SPEAKERLike it takes time to turn a ship around and on a, on a ship on a business, like building

20:40SPEAKERfabs and building CPU is where the timeline on a CPU is five years, five plus from like

20:46SPEAKERthe first implementation decisions to taping out, to shipping a processor.

20:51SPEAKERLike he's been there for three years and change.

20:55SPEAKERI've seen that exact quote in the business press or business world.

20:58SPEAKERLike, like he, they brought him in with a five-year turnaround plan and then they tossed

21:03SPEAKERhim after less than four.

21:04SPEAKERYeah.

21:04SPEAKERThe, the, the like lunar Lake, which shipped this year and is a fabulous mobile part arrow

21:10SPEAKERLake, which just shipped a couple of weeks ago and is like up and down, but you know,

21:13SPEAKERwhatever, it's fine.

21:15SPEAKERIt's, it's good for a rev one of a new, of a new architecture.

21:19SPEAKERLike those were both already in process when Gelsinger was hired.

21:23SPEAKERThey had to have been, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong Intel employees who listened

21:27SPEAKERto the podcast.

21:29SPEAKERSo yeah, it feels, it feels like they're, if they made a no confidence vote, it's because

21:35SPEAKERlike investors can't wait for the time it takes fab.

21:38SPEAKERSo we can, let's, let's just jump, jump, jump to it.

21:41SPEAKERThe fab situation is such that it takes a really long time to build fabs pretty much

21:46SPEAKEReverywhere in the world.

21:47SPEAKERI think I found a report that says the worldwide average worldwide average for the 600 fabs

21:55SPEAKERbuilt between 1990 and 2020, the average time it takes to build from breaking ground to

22:00SPEAKERfirst chips rolling off is 682 days in China.

22:04SPEAKERIt's a little bit more than that in Taiwan and South Korea.

22:08SPEAKERIt's a little bit less than that.

22:09SPEAKERThe U S average was 736 days for the 40 40 something fabs that were built in the U S

22:14SPEAKERduring that time period.

22:15SPEAKERAnd presumably some of those fabs are not bleeding edge or they're a little more conservative

22:19SPEAKERand like take less time because they are more known quantities, I would assume.

22:23SPEAKERSo that is the other thing is, yeah, there's two kinds of different types of fabs.

22:26SPEAKEROne is normal and the others are advanced.

22:28SPEAKERNormal are building things like EPROMs and memory and SD flash memory and all the things

22:34SPEAKERthat like well established.

22:36SPEAKERThey're not novel processes.

22:37SPEAKERThey're not, they're, you know, we're just, we're just building chips here.

22:40SPEAKERWe're not doing rocket science, right?

22:43SPEAKERThe advanced fabs are doing new processes and doing new technologies and they're inventing

22:49SPEAKERstuff to get to the point that they can do the manufacturing.

22:52SPEAKERYou know, Intel talks about their fab goals years and years in advance.

22:58SPEAKERThe, the, the five, the five, five nodes in four year years, I always get that backwards.

23:03SPEAKERI think it's five nodes in four years.

23:05SPEAKERLike they talked about the things that they had to invent and the things that they already

23:09SPEAKERhad invented.

23:09SPEAKERAnd they bought companies like Foveros to, to help accelerate that stuff.

23:13SPEAKERCause they knew that they'd need you know, packaging technologies and 3d, 3d chip assembly

23:20SPEAKERtechnologies and all sorts of this crazy stuff.

23:22SPEAKERThat just, they're not buying it off the shelf.

23:26SPEAKERThey're inventing it as they go.

23:27SPEAKERAnd that takes time.

23:29SPEAKERSo anyway it feels, it feels like, it feels like this happened really fast.

23:37SPEAKERIf they're, if they're kicking him out for non-performance.

23:39SPEAKERNow they did cancel the 20a process earlier this year, which was one of those five nodes

23:45SPEAKERin four years.

23:47SPEAKERIt seems like it was probably like the spin that they put on it and that most of the analysts

23:52SPEAKERI follow and listen to seemed to buy is that they canceled it because 18a, which is the

23:59SPEAKERlong-term, like 20a was kind of an interim node for them to build as U.S. based.

24:05SPEAKERThey were doing it in Arizona someplace.

24:07SPEAKERAnd it seemed like it was an interim process that then would be supplanted by this 18a

24:15SPEAKERnode.

24:16SPEAKERAnd the 18a process seems like it's coming along faster than expected.

24:21SPEAKERThey hit some yield goals earlier this year, well in advance of the time they expected

24:26SPEAKERto.

24:27SPEAKERAnd in a time when the company is cash strapped, because their products aren't selling as much

24:33SPEAKERas they have in the past and they're not seeing the growth that they expect on the products

24:36SPEAKERthat they do have, they reallocated the cash to the process where it's going to have the

24:41SPEAKERmost impact for the longest time, rather than piss away a half a billion dollars, spinning

24:46SPEAKERup 20a only for it to go away in like five years.

24:50SPEAKERYeah, like I'm trying to find a date on this roadmap.

24:53SPEAKERThis roadmap slide of theirs I just pulled up because when you, when you lay it out that

24:56SPEAKERway, it's like, oh sure, Intel, you canceled your awesome process because your awesomer

25:01SPEAKERprocess is even more, you know what I mean?

25:02SPEAKERIt's like a likely story, but this roadmap slide shows that 20a, 20a was supposed to

25:08SPEAKERbe manufacturing ready in first half of 2024, 18a in second half.

25:12SPEAKERSo they were both supposed to come online in the same year.

25:15SPEAKERSo they actually were planned to be practically on top of each other.

25:18SPEAKERSo maybe that cancellation doesn't make sense.

25:20SPEAKERYeah.

25:20SPEAKERSo, so it's like Arrow Lake was supposed to be a 20a process.

25:24SPEAKERAnd then I'm sure that this was like a Tyler Durden insurance versus recall versus not

25:30SPEAKERrecall formula where somebody at Intel was like, look, it's going to cost us half a billion

25:35SPEAKERdollars to spin up 20a, or we can pay not half a billion dollars to TSMC to manufacture

25:41SPEAKERall of these Arrow Lake chips that we're going to sell.

25:43SPEAKERAnd the decision was pretty easy probably when they reached, when they reached that

25:47SPEAKERpoint.

25:48SPEAKERYeah.

25:49SPEAKERHave we said, I think we may have probably addressed this, like the, the long-term point

25:52SPEAKERof them spinning out these advanced processes is to become a volume manufacturer of both

25:59SPEAKERtheir own chips and other people's chips, right?

26:01SPEAKERYeah.

26:01SPEAKERThat's, that's the goal is they want to remain the primary customer for their fabs, but they

26:05SPEAKERalso want to be able to service other large customers like Apple and Samsung and Nvidia

26:12SPEAKERand AMD and every like, like theoretically they want to build chips for anybody that

26:16SPEAKERwants high-end chips made.

26:17SPEAKERRight.

26:17SPEAKERCause even, even just like following, I don't know, you name it in any kind of like high-end

26:23SPEAKERsemiconductors manufacturing, like for example, reading about AMD processors or something,

26:27SPEAKERyou will constantly see references to like, oh, they put it on so-and-so process because

26:32SPEAKERApple is hogging all of the capacity on the three nanometer or, you know, Nvidia has got

26:37SPEAKERa gigantic order in like there, there is massive competition for TSMC's output.

26:44SPEAKERThere's infinite, there's infinite need and, and, and demand for the, at those businesses

26:50SPEAKERright now.

26:51SPEAKERAnd at the same time, like it's a scary, it's, it's not, this isn't, it's often pitched as

26:58SPEAKERa, Hey America, we got to do our manufacturing here thing, but it's terrifying that 60% of

27:04SPEAKERall the chips in the world are made in Taiwan, which is a ring of it's on the ring of fire.

27:09SPEAKERIt's in an area where, you know, six plus earthquakes like Richter scale, six earthquakes

27:15SPEAKERare not uncommon.

27:18SPEAKERLike they, they we've, it's not a good place to have such an enormous amount of crucial

27:23SPEAKERmanufacturing without even factoring in the geopolitical situation with China and Taiwan.

27:29SPEAKERThat is constantly an issue.

27:32SPEAKERRight.

27:32SPEAKERSo so yeah, so the, the, the, the idea that it's, Hey, we got to build this in America.

27:37SPEAKERYes, that's true. The, the, I think the first design wins that Intel announced for 18 a

27:42SPEAKERare department of defense chips so that we're not buying stuff in fighter jets and missiles

27:47SPEAKERfrom China, I believe is the idea.

27:50SPEAKERBut at the same time, it's scary to have an enormous amount of this incredibly vital resource

27:57SPEAKERmanufactured in a place that's tenuous.

27:59SPEAKERSo so yeah, anyway how how I guess, I guess that's kind of it, right?

28:08SPEAKERLike currently what's going to change the David Zinsner gave some quotes the day after

28:14SPEAKERthis announcement happened that said basically the core strategy remains intact, which to

28:18SPEAKERme says rebuild manufacturing.

28:20SPEAKERExcellent.

28:21SPEAKEROh, here's, here's the quote.

28:22SPEAKERCore strategy references Gelsinger's goals to rebuild Intel's manufacturing excellence

28:26SPEAKERand become a leader in contract chip manufacturing to complete with TSMC, which means five nodes

28:30SPEAKERin four years is intact except for let's not talk about 20 a right.

28:35SPEAKERI mean, like I saw some people saying like, oh, you know, like, are they going to save

28:38SPEAKERthe course even though he's gone or are they just going to sell it off for parts?

28:41SPEAKERI'm like, how big of an investment must they have made already in this?

28:45SPEAKERIt's enormous.

28:46SPEAKERLike the, the idea of just cutting bait on this thing and blushing the whole initiative

28:51SPEAKERbasically seems like you might as well shut the whole company down at that point, right?

28:54SPEAKERWell, I mean, the, the, the, the conversation is more, is someone else going to buy one

29:01SPEAKERpart, one or one or some parts of the Intel business because they split off the, the,

29:06SPEAKERas my understanding is they split the balance sheets for the foundries and for the chip

29:10SPEAKERdesign and sales businesses in the last three years sometime.

29:15SPEAKERAnd so theoretically that means they could sell off the foundry business to somebody

29:19SPEAKERwho wants foundries.

29:20SPEAKERSure.

29:21SPEAKERBut right now there's not a whole lot to buy because they've just, they have these

29:25SPEAKERfactories that haven't produced anything yet.

29:27SPEAKERI mean, okay, that's not fair.

29:28SPEAKERThey have factories that have produced a whole shitload of chips over the years, but the

29:31SPEAKERreally interesting ones with the new processes they haven't, like they're not producing

29:36SPEAKERreally.

29:37SPEAKER18A is, there's chips coming off of 18A now, but not in volume.

29:40SPEAKERSeems like it would be hard to get rid of the whole thing when the crown jewel isn't

29:44SPEAKEReven really proven yet.

29:45SPEAKERAlso, I have to say, I just flicked up the idiom cut bait cause I just said it, it does

29:49SPEAKERnot mean what I think it means.

29:50SPEAKERIs it not a fishing thing?

29:52SPEAKERIt is a fishing thing, but it's not, it does not mean like cut loose.

29:55SPEAKEROh, I thought you cut the line.

29:57SPEAKERThat's, that was my assumption.

29:58SPEAKERThis is, see, this is the problem with applying interpretation to old idioms.

30:02SPEAKEROh man.

30:03SPEAKERIs it, is this about just like, instead of using live bait, you just cut up a dead fish

30:06SPEAKERand put it on your hook?

30:07SPEAKEROh, you know, actually they either proceed with an activity or abandon it completely

30:11SPEAKERis a description I'm seeing.

30:12SPEAKERI mean, maybe that's more correct than I thought.

30:16SPEAKEROkay.

30:16SPEAKERYeah.

30:17SPEAKERLike I don't think they're going to, I would be shocked if they cut bait.

30:22SPEAKERI think like the problem with building fabs in the U S is that there are an analyst.

30:28SPEAKERThere was an analyst report that broke this down really clearly in a way that I hadn't

30:32SPEAKERseen before.

30:32SPEAKERThey said there's seven critical requirements.

30:35SPEAKERYou need a lot of land, you need low seismic activity.

30:38SPEAKERYou need a stable water supply.

30:39SPEAKERYou need reliable electricity.

30:41SPEAKERYou need people, you need infrastructure and closeness to suppliers.

30:45SPEAKERAnd the, the, we have all of those things in the United States in different places.

30:51SPEAKERThe material supply, like the closeness to suppliers is, is interesting because it's,

30:56SPEAKERit's a, it's really terrifying supplies.

30:58SPEAKERIt's like, Hey, where do you get thousands of gallons of hydrofluoric acid a day?

31:03SPEAKERThat's a scary thing to have to haul around.

31:04SPEAKERSure.

31:06SPEAKERBut, but also you have to have people that can manufacture the bulls and manufacture

31:09SPEAKERthe wafers that you're going to use to cut the chips out of.

31:12SPEAKERAnd, and I think often at the high level for the advanced fabs, they're probably doing

31:15SPEAKERthat stuff on site.

31:16SPEAKERThey're not, you know, they're not buying bulls off, off the, off the bull market.

31:20SPEAKERYes, eBay for bulls or whatever.

31:23SPEAKERThey're not getting a bundle from AliExpress or something.

31:25SPEAKERYeah.

31:26SPEAKERThey have a guy in Shenzhen.

31:27SPEAKERYes.

31:27SPEAKERI wonder how the water is used in the process.

31:30SPEAKERI mean, I'm sure I could look that up.

31:31SPEAKERThey absorb an incredible amount of water for washing and cleaning and cooling and all

31:35SPEAKERthe things that they do with water.

31:36SPEAKERYeah, okay.

31:38SPEAKERWhich is the other thing that holds them up in the U S which is the regulation stuff.

31:42SPEAKERSo because we're a federated group of States, instead of having one set of rules for the

31:46SPEAKERentire country, like you have in Korea or Singapore or Taiwan, we have 50 States with

31:50SPEAKER50 sets of rules.

31:51SPEAKERThey're all a little different.

31:53SPEAKERIt's challenging.

31:54SPEAKERWe have the federal EPA and the state APA, which all have different regulatory requirements

31:59SPEAKERfor, you know, things like how you handle, how do you, what's the rule for putting hydrofluoric

32:04SPEAKERacid that would eat the pavement out from underneath the truck should it spill on a

32:09SPEAKERtruck and carry around.

32:10SPEAKERI bet you can't put that on a truck.

32:12SPEAKERI don't know.

32:13SPEAKERWe should ask Phil Broughton that cause he would know the answer to that.

32:15SPEAKERAnd then he's going to laugh at us and tell us not to mess with liquids that will decalcify

32:19SPEAKERyour bones.

32:20SPEAKERUm, it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's a weird time for Intel is the TLDR and I hope that's okay.

32:28SPEAKERYeah, I was, I was bullish.

32:29SPEAKERI was bullish about, um, the whole thing.

32:33SPEAKERI mean, you know, like I didn't want to buy too much into like personal mythology, but

32:36SPEAKERknowing that he is an old school assembly programmer, chip designer, you know, engineer

32:41SPEAKERwho came up through the glory days of Intel was seemed promising.

32:45SPEAKERAnd I was, it was, it was something that felt easy to rally around, especially, especially

32:49SPEAKERas you see them talking about trying to pivot back to manufacturing excellence and get their

32:54SPEAKERwhole core business back on track.

32:56SPEAKERSeemed exciting because just like it was exciting to see AMD come back a few years ago with

33:01SPEAKERthe Ryzen and become so strong and look at the innovation that that has and competition

33:05SPEAKERthat that has driven.

33:06SPEAKERLike you want Intel to be equally strong, right?

33:08SPEAKERYeah.

33:09SPEAKERLisa Sue has been kicking ass at AMD for a long time now.

33:12SPEAKERAnd it was, it was fun to see Pat come in as somebody who used to make things versus

33:18SPEAKERbeing like a guy that was good at selling soap.

33:20SPEAKERYeah.

33:20SPEAKERRight.

33:21SPEAKERAnd like, you know, these are fairly minor examples, but as AMD has gotten stronger,

33:25SPEAKERyou've seen Intel react, you know, like prices got better.

33:28SPEAKERThis is a pretty minor niche example that only I care about on some other home server

33:32SPEAKERnerds, but like they started putting ECC memory support back in the low end processors again,

33:36SPEAKERbecause for years they just had that arbitrarily disabled to make you go buy a very expensive

33:41SPEAKERXeon because they could.

33:43SPEAKERLook, they started putting enough PCI express lanes in their CPU's again, right?

33:47SPEAKERLike this is, this is the, the, the, the products have become better.

33:51SPEAKERYou look at what happened.

33:52SPEAKERI look at what happened with mobile, with the, with the co-pilot plus PCs that just

33:56SPEAKERlaunched, you know, and there's three chip makers, Qualcomm and Intel and AMD were really

34:00SPEAKERseeing made laptops specifically for this new kind of not really a spec, but it's kind

34:05SPEAKERof a spec that it, that Microsoft came up with.

34:08SPEAKERAnd the result is you have three wildly different products that can all serve the same niche,

34:15SPEAKERbut they have different strengths and weaknesses.

34:17SPEAKERLike the AMD ones are really good at compute and, and a little heavy, a little, little

34:21SPEAKERheavier lifting than the Intel ones, but the battery life isn't quite as good, right?

34:26SPEAKERThe, the Intel ones have incredible battery life and great compute, but, but they, but

34:31SPEAKERthey aren't quite as fast in the raw benchmarks as the, as the AMD stuff is.

34:35SPEAKERAnd then Qualcomm is real weird because like it does, doesn't run a lot of software and,

34:39SPEAKERand maybe don't buy the Qualcomm ones, but they're great for corporate fleets because

34:43SPEAKERthe corporate fleets actually want computers that won't run a bunch of software.

34:46SPEAKERThey just want computers that will run the software that they want and nothing else.

34:50SPEAKERSo, yeah.

34:52SPEAKERAnyway, computers are weird, man.

34:54SPEAKERThey're complicated and hard and, and they're interesting to talk about again.

34:59SPEAKERSo one, one other quick aside I meant to mention about on the subject of TSMC and all of their

35:04SPEAKERmanufacturing capacity being concentrated on a small island that is under multiple

35:08SPEAKERtypes of threat at times, they, they have also been expanding into the United States.

35:12SPEAKERThey have opened, and I only know that, I only know that because there was a big report

35:16SPEAKERabout culture clash at one of their new fabrication facilities in the United States.

35:20SPEAKERIs it the one in Chandler?

35:21SPEAKERI don't know.

35:22SPEAKERHow many do they have actually?

35:23SPEAKERI think, well, they were supposed to open one in Minnesota, but I think that was just

35:26SPEAKERa fake thing from the previous administration.

35:29SPEAKERYeah, that's, that's, Arizona, I think is probably their big, I'm actually not sure

35:34SPEAKERwhich facility it was, but there was a big report a year or two ago about clashes in

35:38SPEAKERculture between the local American employees and the managers from Taiwan and some, you

35:44SPEAKERcan go read the report.

35:45SPEAKERTSMC's in Arizona, yeah.

35:47SPEAKERYeah, Arizona.

35:48SPEAKERThat's what it was.

35:48SPEAKERThe point is that even they are expanding their own operation to other continents.

35:53SPEAKERIt makes sense.

35:54SPEAKERYeah.

35:54SPEAKERLike why not?

35:55SPEAKERAnd also there are rules now about buying chips from other countries for department

36:01SPEAKERof defense stuff, which is, I assume an enormous amount of money.

36:03SPEAKERI don't know for sure.

36:04SPEAKERYes.

36:04SPEAKERAnd then we didn't even get into the chips act that was passed under the Biden administration.

36:07SPEAKERThat's, I think Intel had something like 3 billion in subsidies, large amounts of money

36:13SPEAKERcoming from the government to, to help get these facilities up and running as well.

36:18SPEAKERYeah.

36:18SPEAKERSo, and, and for what it's worth, that has been a little slower than expected in some

36:23SPEAKERcases, like Samsung pulled out of a thing specifically because the payments were taking

36:27SPEAKERtoo long to come.

36:30SPEAKERSo anyway, yeah, it's, it's, I guess best wishes to Pat and I hope that the new folks

36:36SPEAKERdo a good job because it's important having Intel around to be compact.

36:40SPEAKERCompetition is important and good.

36:42SPEAKERYes, for sure.

36:43SPEAKERIt's been, it's been a real bummer seeing some prognosticating about their demise after

36:47SPEAKERthis news came out.

36:48SPEAKERLike, I mean, that's probably premature and hyperbolic, but just thinking about the history

36:53SPEAKERof Intel and, you know, what we grew up with and what symbolized computing generally for

36:58SPEAKERso long, like it would be really sad if something like that were to come to pass.

37:01SPEAKERI mean, it's unusual for multi-billion dollar companies to disappear.

37:05SPEAKERYeah, it's not going to happen, but still just the idea that it's even being floated

37:08SPEAKERis, is just sad to think about.

37:10SPEAKERYeah.

37:11SPEAKERYeah.

37:12SPEAKERSpeaking of things disappearing that it's sad to even think about.

37:15SPEAKERActually, it's quite a segue.

37:16SPEAKERI don't, I don't know if I have, like, I don't have strong feelings about this one.

37:20SPEAKERI don't think anymore.

37:21SPEAKERI, I, I'd much like the example I just gave about Intel.

37:24SPEAKERLike I kind of do for what it symbolizes.

37:26SPEAKERYeah.

37:27SPEAKERIf not the application itself so much, they killed WordPad.

37:30SPEAKERYeah.

37:31SPEAKERThis, this came from the suggestions channel on the discord.

37:34SPEAKERSomebody, I think they might've been half joking, but never joke in the episode suggestions

37:38SPEAKERchannel.

37:39SPEAKERNo, we love a good joke suggestion.

37:41SPEAKERWe are, we are prone to take you deadly seriously.

37:44SPEAKERI think they actually wanted to hear about it.

37:46SPEAKERThey have deprecated WordPad.

37:48SPEAKERThis was fortune, by the way, was suggested this one.

37:50SPEAKERYes.

37:51SPEAKERI guess it was September 2023 that they announced, Microsoft announced that WordPad would be

37:56SPEAKERgoing away.

37:57SPEAKERYeah.

37:57SPEAKERBut it's apparently it is just as of the rollout of 24H2, the most recent major update to

38:03SPEAKERWindows 11 that they straight up have yanked it.

38:06SPEAKERI believe we have verified that WordPad no longer exists on your machine.

38:10SPEAKERIs that correct?

38:10SPEAKERSo I'm running 24H2 right now.

38:13SPEAKEROkay.

38:13SPEAKERI'm going to check.

38:14SPEAKERI'm going to do a live test here.

38:18SPEAKERLet's see.

38:18SPEAKERSystem 24H2.

38:20SPEAKERYep.

38:20SPEAKERThat's confirmed.

38:22SPEAKERStalled on 11/22/2024.

38:24SPEAKERI'm going to, I hit the start key.

38:26SPEAKERI'm typing WordPad.

38:28SPEAKERI'm getting web results.

38:30SPEAKERI had WordPad.exe for a minute there.

38:33SPEAKERThere we go.

38:34SPEAKERYou want to track it down and run it manually?

38:36SPEAKERNope.

38:36SPEAKERIt wasn't a WordPad.exe.

38:39SPEAKERIf I type WordPad.exe, it opens.

38:41SPEAKERIt's still here.

38:43SPEAKERThis is a Microsoft of lies.

38:44SPEAKEROkay.

38:45SPEAKERWell, we have to cancel the rest of this podcast.

38:46SPEAKERWell, okay, but hold on.

38:47SPEAKERI'm getting the, I'm getting the circle.

38:50SPEAKERIt says it's not responding.

38:52SPEAKEROh, oh, wait a second.

38:53SPEAKERYou can't actually run it then?

38:54SPEAKERIt seems like I can't actually run it.

38:56SPEAKEROh, okay.

38:57SPEAKERWhat is that?

38:58SPEAKERIs that some kind of weird like stub executable that they shoved in there or something?

39:02SPEAKERI don't know, man.

39:03SPEAKERThis is really weird.

39:04SPEAKERThat's odd.

39:05SPEAKERIt's it has a window there.

39:06SPEAKERIt looks like WordPad.

39:07SPEAKERIt says document WordPad not responding.

39:10SPEAKERAnd then it's crashing.

39:11SPEAKERSo maybe they just broke it.

39:12SPEAKERAnd they were like, Hey, what if we go back and post date a thing from last year in September

39:17SPEAKERand be like, Hey, man, we're getting rid of this with 2023 with 2024.

39:21SPEAKERIt's going to be gone because somebody broke WordPad.

39:24SPEAKERThat's my theory.

39:25SPEAKERThat's, that's the risk of deprecated software.

39:27SPEAKERIt could break at any time.

39:29SPEAKERYeah, exactly.

39:31SPEAKERSo apparently it's, if I'm reading this correctly.

39:36SPEAKERIt might've been on Wikipedia that I saw this.

39:38SPEAKERI'm looking for it.

39:38SPEAKERApparently they stopped shipping WordPad in new installations of Windows 11 at the beginning

39:42SPEAKERof this year.

39:43SPEAKEROh, but now they are actively disabling it.

39:46SPEAKERSo I still have it.

39:47SPEAKERExisting installs, or at least they say they are.

39:50SPEAKERIt's so it's working for me.

39:52SPEAKERI'm sorry.

39:52SPEAKERHere it is on Wikipedia.

39:53SPEAKERYes.

39:53SPEAKERIn January, WordPad was no longer auto installed after a clean installation of the OS.

39:58SPEAKEROh, but it's, it's still in my program files, x86 slash windows NT slash accessories folder.

40:05SPEAKERWell, huge mistake, including this topic then I guess.

40:08SPEAKERNo, it's fine.

40:09SPEAKERI mean, it's fun to talk about old software like this.

40:13SPEAKERAnd like I, like I said, like I don't have a ton of affection for WordPad, like kind

40:16SPEAKERof a little bit, but it also just makes me think back to the early days of Windows 95

40:20SPEAKERand how exciting all that was.

40:22SPEAKERWell, yeah, I was going to say like, so, so Word, WordPad, it was Windows 95 at first,

40:28SPEAKERright?

40:29SPEAKERIt was introduced in 95.

40:30SPEAKERBut it replaced write, which was their kind of like JV word processor that was bundled

40:35SPEAKERin before.

40:36SPEAKERThat was actually the biggest trip of reading a little bit about WordPad for this was remembering

40:39SPEAKERthe existence of Microsoft write because it's never really weird you out how certain pieces

40:44SPEAKERof information can be embedded in your brain and not accessed for literal decades and then

40:48SPEAKERjust come floating back.

40:49SPEAKERI know what the icon looks like.

40:50SPEAKERIt's like a piece of paper with a pen, like a fountain pen.

40:53SPEAKERIt's blue.

40:54SPEAKERI haven't thought about Microsoft write since the 90s, but I used it plenty in Windows 31.

40:59SPEAKERYeah, me too.

41:00SPEAKERAnd for some reason, just completely forgot about it.

41:02SPEAKERThat, that just attests to the excellence of WordPad.

41:06SPEAKERYou completely forgot about it once it came along.

41:09SPEAKERSo for a long time for me, WordPad was the thing that I used if I needed to open a Linux

41:14SPEAKERfile and didn't have like Notepad plus plus or some something that understand understood

41:19SPEAKERline endings, you know, Linux line endings, right?

41:22SPEAKERYou had way more advanced text use cases than I did at that time.

41:26SPEAKERCause like all I ever used it for was open doc files.

41:29SPEAKERIf, if I ever came in possession of a doc file, that's all I had to open it.

41:33SPEAKERYeah.

41:33SPEAKERI mean, I can see that.

41:34SPEAKERSo, so to me, the story of WordPad is the like them removing this is them saying, Hey

41:40SPEAKERman, we don't need to bundle in a word processor anymore.

41:43SPEAKERYeah.

41:43SPEAKERYeah.

41:43SPEAKERCause basically like if you think about it, adding right in with windows, early versions

41:49SPEAKERof windows was kind of a weird flex saying, Hey, we're going to ship the OS with the

41:55SPEAKERthing that you used to just use your, like for a lot of people in the eighties and early

41:58SPEAKERnineties, the computer was a word processor or it was a spreadsheet or it was a database,

42:04SPEAKERbut it wasn't all of those things.

42:05SPEAKERIt was just one at a time.

42:07SPEAKERRight.

42:07SPEAKERCause you couldn't, there was no multitasking and DOS and, and the, Hey, we're going to

42:13SPEAKERput a word processor in here.

42:14SPEAKERThat's, that's going to do what 90% of you need without buying anything else.

42:19SPEAKERIs, is a weird thought and that we've reached a point where they're like, no, you just go

42:22SPEAKERto the website and use the live three 65 web version.

42:25SPEAKERIf you need, if you need a word processor now is, is feels weird.

42:31SPEAKERIt does a sign of the times.

42:33SPEAKERRight.

42:34SPEAKERWe'll get back to WordPad, but right.

42:35SPEAKEROperated on, do you remember the W the dot WRI file?

42:39SPEAKEROh yeah.

42:39SPEAKERThey were all file.

42:40SPEAKERThey were all binary and weird.

42:42SPEAKERIf you opened up a notepad by accident.

42:44SPEAKERYes.

42:45SPEAKERAlthough it looks like by, as of windows 3.0.

42:48SPEAKERSo by the time I, we had a computer in my family, right.

42:51SPEAKERCould also open doc files.

42:53SPEAKEROh, that's interesting.

42:54SPEAKERAnd then later became, this is a little aside here.

42:57SPEAKERI feel embarrassed to admit this.

42:59SPEAKERI have always in my head, since I was a teenager, pronounced this OLE.

43:03SPEAKEROh, O-L-E.

43:04SPEAKERYou know what I'm talking about?

43:05SPEAKERThose were like, it was like a link thing or something, right?

43:08SPEAKERLinking and embedding, I believe is what I have always known it to stand for.

43:10SPEAKERYes, that's correct.

43:11SPEAKERBut I never really knew exactly what it did.

43:13SPEAKERAnd also again, anybody listening who knows what that was from early windows.

43:18SPEAKERHow did you actually say it?

43:19SPEAKERBecause my head always said OLE.

43:21SPEAKERDid it let you drag and drop?

43:22SPEAKERIs that what it was?

43:23SPEAKERYes, I think, I think it may have been some kind of like program interoperability thing.

43:27SPEAKERIf I'm not mistaken.

43:28SPEAKERWell, here we go.

43:29SPEAKERTechnology developed by Microsoft that allows

43:31SPEAKERembedding and linking to documents and other objects.

43:34SPEAKEROh, oh, it was the predecessor to shortcuts then.

43:37SPEAKERKind of.

43:37SPEAKERWell, within documents, it sounds like it.

43:40SPEAKERLet's see, are you familiar with the acronym OCX?

43:43SPEAKERNo.

43:43SPEAKERThat's also sounds really familiar to me.

43:45SPEAKERThe OLE control extension.

43:47SPEAKEROh yeah, of course.

43:49SPEAKERYeah, a hundred percent.

43:50SPEAKERI use that all the time still.

43:52SPEAKERYou know, it was an evolution of the original DDE or dynamic data exchange.

43:55SPEAKERThe DDE was important.

43:57SPEAKERAre you actually being serious?

43:59SPEAKERIf your DDE got jacked up, then you couldn't open Photoshop files, I think in Windows 3.0.

44:04SPEAKEROh, interesting.

44:05SPEAKERI apologize for going through acronym hell here, but like this is, this is bringing back

44:09SPEAKERa lot of memories that like 13 to 14 year old me was fascinated by if I didn't, if I

44:14SPEAKERdidn't quite understand them all.

44:16SPEAKERIt's funny to think about because prior to Windows 95, drag and drop was really spotty,

44:22SPEAKERright?

44:22SPEAKERLike you, you could copy and paste kind of, I think between like simple kind of text formats.

44:28SPEAKERYou do like text or I mean, I guess if you had an image editor, you could copy from an

44:32SPEAKERimage to another image, but probably you were just copying from like one Photoshop window

44:36SPEAKERto another one.

44:37SPEAKERYeah.

44:37SPEAKERAnd being able to drag and drop a document into another document was an unusual thing

44:42SPEAKERback then.

44:42SPEAKEROh, for sure.

44:43SPEAKERI mean, let's be real, like the windows three, one graphical shell could barely handle two

44:47SPEAKERwindows side by side dragging in between them in general.

44:50SPEAKERI mean, it depends on the computer.

44:51SPEAKERI feel like at one of my workplaces that we had a Pentium 60 that ran windows 3.1 because

44:57SPEAKERof hardware compatibility stuff.

44:59SPEAKERYeah.

45:00SPEAKERWell, actually I mean less for horsepower reasons or performance and more just interface

45:03SPEAKERdesign.

45:04SPEAKERLike keeping what I mean is like, Oh, managing multiple windows on screen at once program

45:08SPEAKERmanager was just not great for handling stuff like that.

45:11SPEAKERYeah, especially at like on a 640 by 480 or 800 by 600 monitor or whatever it was back

45:15SPEAKERthen.

45:16SPEAKERWhich actually like kind of goes to why a big part of why windows 95 was so exciting

45:20SPEAKERwas because it brought the actual real desktop metaphor to two PCs that the market had forever.

45:26SPEAKERRight.

45:26SPEAKERIt gave me a place to put my crap.

45:28SPEAKERThat's right.

45:29SPEAKERRight.

45:29SPEAKERYou have a thing that you minimize the windows to and could maximize or restore them at will

45:34SPEAKERjust by clicking them.

45:35SPEAKERWell, you could do that before, but it wasn't very good.

45:37SPEAKERBut, but who, whoever ran program manager not maximized.

45:41SPEAKERAnd I, I, I can't remember when was it, when was it that you could look at the window contents

45:46SPEAKERas you were resizing and moving?

45:48SPEAKERI feel like that was like a windows 3.1 thing.

45:50SPEAKEROh, I don't think 3.1 ever had that, did it?

45:52SPEAKERDid it?

45:53SPEAKERI'm not sure when 95 ever even had that.

45:55SPEAKERWas that a 98 thing?

45:56SPEAKERWindows show show contents while dragging, I think was generally the way that was described.

46:00SPEAKERYeah.

46:01SPEAKERWindows, windows three, you'd see an outline of the window and you were dragging it around

46:06SPEAKERif I remember right.

46:06SPEAKERJust like a dotted line.

46:07SPEAKERYes.

46:08SPEAKERYeah.

46:08SPEAKEROr like a shaded line or something.

46:10SPEAKERBut anyway, it was, it was a weird, computers were weird.

46:14SPEAKERThey were.

46:14SPEAKERWe've come a long way.

46:16SPEAKERYeah.

46:16SPEAKERIt's been a long road.

46:17SPEAKERAnyway.

46:18SPEAKERRight.

46:18SPEAKERAs I said, the predecessor to word pad opened, write files and doc files in addition to text,

46:23SPEAKERalthough you have the venerable notepad to open text files.

46:26SPEAKERWell, you know, the other thing that, that word, well, maybe not right, but the other

46:29SPEAKERthing that word pad could do was it would load notepad in the old days, if your file was

46:34SPEAKERtoo big and you had to page out of memory would not run very well.

46:39SPEAKEROh, that was not even in so much in the old days.

46:41SPEAKERI think that was true until like within the last five years.

46:44SPEAKERIt was true until the modern redo with tabs of notepad came out.

46:47SPEAKERI believe like until like, God, probably windows eight.

46:52SPEAKERNo, I think it was windows 10.

46:54SPEAKERI don't think we got tabbed notepad until fairly recently.

46:56SPEAKERAnd tab notepad was only 11.

46:58SPEAKERI believe what I mean is I believe up through windows eight was still that original notepad

47:01SPEAKERthat would just seize up if you opened like a five megabyte text file or something.

47:05SPEAKERYeah, that's right.

47:06SPEAKERYes.

47:07SPEAKERSo, so, you know, as, as we said, they discontinued write and debuted word pad in windows 95.

47:13SPEAKERIt could open rich text, RTF and doc files right off the bat.

47:17SPEAKEROh man.

47:17SPEAKERWere it six doc files, the best word?

47:20SPEAKERYeah, I guess.

47:20SPEAKERI don't know.

47:21SPEAKERI remember, I remember I used to be excited about new versions of word.

47:25SPEAKERYeah.

47:25SPEAKERAnd then the course of talking about doing this little topic lit, the idea of doing a

47:29SPEAKERwhole word processor episode came up.

47:31SPEAKERI'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.

47:34SPEAKERYeah, it's, it's funny.

47:35SPEAKERCause it used to be, there's a thing that happened where they would, the software got

47:41SPEAKERbetter all the time because they made new versions all the time and you'd get like,

47:46SPEAKERyou may not like all the new features, but there was probably something in there.

47:49SPEAKERLike I remember when they added the red squiggly underline on your misspelled words in word.

47:53SPEAKERSure.

47:54SPEAKERThat was a big deal.

47:55SPEAKERYeah.

47:55SPEAKERLike that, that meant I stopped misspelling stuff in word documents.

48:00SPEAKERReal time dynamic spell check is not a thing that used to happen.

48:03SPEAKERYeah.

48:03SPEAKEROr I guess check was the thing you went up to the menu and ran when you were done.

48:06SPEAKERI mean, look, when, when that happened, that was exciting too.

48:09SPEAKERThe first versions of word perfect I used didn't have that even.

48:12SPEAKERSo what was, what was your very first word processor that you remember?

48:17SPEAKERI had exposure to word star because my, we had a computer that was a hand me down from

48:22SPEAKERsomebody that had word star installed on it.

48:24SPEAKERAnd that was, is that apocryphal that that was the actual first software word processor?

48:28SPEAKEROr is that correct?

48:29SPEAKERI believe that was the first one on a personal computer at least.

48:32SPEAKEROkay.

48:33SPEAKERBut I, I don't, I don't, I haven't done any research about that.

48:35SPEAKERSo I don't know.

48:36SPEAKEROh yeah.

48:37SPEAKERThat was word star was created.

48:38SPEAKEROh my God.

48:39SPEAKERWord star is older than me came out in 1978.

48:42SPEAKERYeah.

48:43SPEAKERSo I used, I would have used word star on an IBM PC AT clone probably.

48:48SPEAKERThat was a 286 I would bet.

48:49SPEAKEROr an 8088 maybe.

48:51SPEAKER78 is pretty safe to say it was probably damn near the first software word processor.

48:56SPEAKERI mean, I think that there were software word processors on

48:58SPEAKERmainframe machines, but I don't think they were on computers.

49:01SPEAKERYes.

49:02SPEAKERAnd, and they were definitely, sorry, personal computers.

49:05SPEAKERThere were definitely many computers.

49:06SPEAKERLike there was a Wang mini computer that had a full ass word processor on it that ran on

49:12SPEAKERlike a shared terminal machine with like five hookups to it or something.

49:16SPEAKERI did live with one of those.

49:18SPEAKERI used one of those when I worked for the Congressman.

49:19SPEAKERHe still had that, that wow.

49:21SPEAKEREnormous Wang.

49:22SPEAKERNo kidding.

49:23SPEAKERYeah.

49:24SPEAKERI'm just going to let that one go.

49:25SPEAKERIs the title going to be my Congress, Will's Congressman's Enormous Wang?

49:28SPEAKERPlease say no.

49:31SPEAKERDude, it was, it was the size.

49:33SPEAKERIt was way, it made the case that you have your machine and look really small.

49:37SPEAKERIt was like three of those.

49:38SPEAKEROh really?

49:39SPEAKERIt was huge.

49:40SPEAKERI always understood the term mini computer to be the like for refrigerator size, not

49:44SPEAKERthe room size, but the stand stand up six foot tall.

49:48SPEAKERSo this one wasn't six feet tall.

49:50SPEAKERThis one was probably four feet by four feet by four.

49:52SPEAKERIt was like a cube.

49:53SPEAKERWow.

49:54SPEAKERCongress people had computers like that in their offices?

49:57SPEAKERWell, okay.

49:57SPEAKERSo my Congressman when I worked there was already 80 years old.

50:00SPEAKERSo he's, he had, he had invested once and was never buying another computer.

50:04SPEAKEROkay.

50:05SPEAKERHis look for this, he had secretaries still.

50:08SPEAKERHe didn't have like legislative assistants and the secretaries that worked there had

50:12SPEAKERIBM, I think they were called Selectrics that were typewriters that you turn the knob and

50:16SPEAKERprogram a letter into.

50:17SPEAKERYep.

50:18SPEAKERI've heard that name.

50:18SPEAKERAnd they could crank out the letters with those, but for things that were more complicated

50:23SPEAKERor needed more form letters, they made the interns type letters on the Wang.

50:28SPEAKEROh, I'm seeing, I'm sure you don't remember the model number.

50:31SPEAKERIt was not a VS 8,400 by chance.

50:33SPEAKERWas it?

50:33SPEAKERIt was something 400.

50:34SPEAKERYeah.

50:35SPEAKERCause yes, that is a very large computer about like what you have described.

50:39SPEAKERYeah.

50:39SPEAKERIt was, I don't like if something happened to the Wang, a guy had to come.

50:44SPEAKERIt wasn't like you could just bust it open and, and hose it out.

50:47SPEAKERIt's never been spoken.

50:48SPEAKERYeah.

50:48SPEAKERLet's move on.

50:50SPEAKERJesus.

50:51SPEAKERSorry.

50:52SPEAKEROh, sorry.

50:53SPEAKERAnyway, word processors, I, we don't need to get too far down this road, but I think

50:58SPEAKERit was a DOS version of word perfect is the first word processor I spent any real time

51:03SPEAKERon because my high school had a small lab of 286s.

51:07SPEAKERThat's what I learned to type on a 286 running word perfect in DOS.

51:09SPEAKEROh yeah, there you go.

51:10SPEAKERSo it was perfectly serviceable for that.

51:12SPEAKERLet me tell you, going in 1993 or 1994 and having to work on that fricking terminal based

51:18SPEAKERmicrocomputer when you had used windows 3.1 or 3.0 at that point, felt like traveling

51:24SPEAKERback in time.

51:25SPEAKERI mean, when you say terminal, you're at least on a CRT, right?

51:28SPEAKERNot a teletype.

51:28SPEAKERYeah, no, it was a, it was, it was a terminal, but it was like a green 320 by 240 VAX kind

51:34SPEAKERof display.

51:35SPEAKERIt was rough.

51:36SPEAKERThe T220 type thing.

51:38SPEAKERYeah.

51:38SPEAKERYeah.

51:38SPEAKERIt was, it was a lot.

51:40SPEAKERYes.

51:40SPEAKERI real quick, I had to go back to, sorry, I kind of steamrolled over your Linux line

51:45SPEAKERending comments.

51:46SPEAKERI never like, I've still, to this day, honestly, I've run into that occasionally as I go back

51:51SPEAKERand forth between the Linux or BSD and windows all the time, but I still don't exactly know

51:57SPEAKERwhat form of those different line did things take.

51:59SPEAKERI just know that they show up as like caret capital M in the wrong text editor a lot of

52:03SPEAKERthe time.

52:04SPEAKERYeah.

52:04SPEAKERSo basically DOS line ending line endings and like Unix line index, right?

52:08SPEAKERYeah.

52:08SPEAKERSo the reason it happens is that a DOS and Unix use different characters to denote a

52:14SPEAKERnew line.

52:15SPEAKEROkay.

52:15SPEAKERSo Unix I think displays them as slash N and windows just does them as backslash, backslash,

52:24SPEAKERbackslash, slash R slash N.

52:25SPEAKERBackslash lowercase N as a new line character in on Unix for sure.

52:29SPEAKERYeah.

52:30SPEAKERSo if you open a Unix file on windows in the old days, you'd see the slash N and it wouldn't,

52:37SPEAKERit would be all one line when you converted it to say the same thing worse.

52:42SPEAKERIf you saved it in windows and open it on Linux and you have slash ends at the slash

52:46SPEAKERRs at the end of all your lines when the slash N got cut off to be the new line.

52:51SPEAKERRight.

52:52SPEAKERThese days, we all just use text editors that handle this without us having to think about

52:55SPEAKERit.

52:56SPEAKERAnd it's not a problem anymore.

52:58SPEAKERSo like notepad plus plus, which just handles it.

53:00SPEAKERHang on really, really quick.

53:02SPEAKERApt search DOS to Unix.

53:04SPEAKERYep.

53:05SPEAKERThere it is.

53:05SPEAKERYeah. That's the other thing is there's a, there's a, there's a tool that does this for

53:10SPEAKERyou.

53:11SPEAKERYes.

53:11SPEAKERDOS to Unix and Unix to DOS are, are, are fun little man-line utilities to convert those

53:16SPEAKERfiles.

53:17SPEAKERJust, just use notepad plus plus man for the love of God.

53:20SPEAKEROr like I've got notepad plus plus and, and modern notepad and a number of others.

53:25SPEAKEROr alternately you can shell into the terminal on your Linux machine when you need to edit

53:29SPEAKERa text file and just, you know, do what a sane person would do and open it in nano.

53:34SPEAKERSorry, I use Vim.

53:36SPEAKERI don't want to talk to you about this.

53:37SPEAKERThank you.

53:37SPEAKERDude, Vim is so fucking awesome.

53:39SPEAKERI've gotten really good at Vim.

53:40SPEAKERNope.

53:40SPEAKERWe're not going to have this conversation.

53:42SPEAKERThis is a trap.

53:43SPEAKERIt's so great.

53:44SPEAKERWe're here to talk about WordPad, not your weird, your weird Vim perversion, Fred.

53:48SPEAKERI've been writing Docker compose YAML files in Vim and it's like really, I'm awesome.

53:53SPEAKERWhen did you get your head around?

53:55SPEAKERI'm glad, I'm glad that it works for you.

53:57SPEAKERI am not.

53:57SPEAKERIt's so fast, you can do so much so fast.

53:59SPEAKERThis is a podcast of no judgment, but I'm being very challenged right now.

54:02SPEAKERLike, do you want to, do you want to add a specific set of characters to the end of every

54:06SPEAKERline from range X to Y?

54:08SPEAKERI've never wanted to do that.

54:09SPEAKERRegardless of how long each line is?

54:12SPEAKERNever been a problem.

54:13SPEAKERAll right.

54:14SPEAKERI just want to, I just want to move my cursor and type the words.

54:17SPEAKERSometimes I want to copy and paste.

54:19SPEAKERYou want to, do you want to do all of that modally?

54:21SPEAKERNope.

54:22SPEAKERNope.

54:22SPEAKERNever want to modal anything.

54:24SPEAKERWell, anyway, I want to, I'm the least modal person.

54:27SPEAKERLike the only modal I want to know is about the modal nodes, baby.

54:30SPEAKERFair.

54:30SPEAKERFair.

54:31SPEAKERI don't know that we've talked a ton about WordPad here, but I don't know if there's

54:34SPEAKERthat much more to say.

54:37SPEAKERI will say PC world actually ran a little story that I'll put in the show notes about

54:41SPEAKERhow to get WordPad back if you really, really want it on a machine that no longer has it.

54:46SPEAKERThe solution is to go harvest the executable from a Windows 11 install that still has it.

54:50SPEAKERYeah, that makes sense.

54:51SPEAKERBut there's, but there's a couple of, you need a, you need a specific DLL and a folder

54:55SPEAKERof localization files along with it to make it run right.

54:58SPEAKERI mean, look at this point, there's better options for WordPad, I think.

55:02SPEAKERWell, yes, but I also love the theory of the hypothetical person who cannot live without

55:07SPEAKERWordPad and has to go out and hunt down a copy of it.

55:09SPEAKERI mean, I think it's funny cause like the stuff I would have used WordPad for back in

55:13SPEAKERthe day, I probably use something like Joplin for now, which I said it saves, we talked

55:19SPEAKERabout Joplin a couple of weeks ago.

55:20SPEAKERI said it saves files in markdown.

55:22SPEAKERIt doesn't.

55:22SPEAKERIt'll support your entire library to markdown.

55:25SPEAKERIt doesn't.

55:25SPEAKERIt saves it in its own thing for whatever reason.

55:28SPEAKERAnyway.

55:29SPEAKERBut like there are text editors that just work in markdown now and you can just point

55:33SPEAKERthem at a folder on your hard drive and it'll work like a giant database of your text stuff.

55:37SPEAKERYeah.

55:38SPEAKERPretty good.

55:38SPEAKEROr just use Google docs or live office, office live on the web.

55:43SPEAKERWell, hey, archive.org has your back as here is a repository of WordPad, just in case.

55:49SPEAKERYou know what?

55:49SPEAKERGoogle docs might go away someday.

55:51SPEAKERWordPad, WordPad never will.

55:53SPEAKERWordPad is forever.

55:54SPEAKERI got to say, I love, I love the the, the, the, the, the way new notepad works where

56:03SPEAKERthe tabs are persistent.

56:04SPEAKERWhen you open notepad, your old tabs are still there.

56:06SPEAKERYeah.

56:08SPEAKERI think I love it too.

56:09SPEAKERI use it.

56:10SPEAKERI certainly use it.

56:10SPEAKERI have like five open tabs and notepad every time I open it, but it is kind of ephemeral.

56:16SPEAKERIt is.

56:17SPEAKERIt does.

56:17SPEAKERIt does feel like it encourages bad habits.

56:20SPEAKEROh, it definitely encourages bad habits.

56:21SPEAKERYeah.

56:22SPEAKERYou should you and by you, I mean me, like I should save the files out to actual files.

56:27SPEAKERIf it's anything important.

56:28SPEAKEROh, I always save them.

56:30SPEAKERYeah.

56:30SPEAKEROh, I see.

56:31SPEAKERNo, I see.

56:31SPEAKERI've got like five unsaved tabs.

56:33SPEAKEROh no, no.

56:34SPEAKERI used to do that with notepad plus plus.

56:36SPEAKERAnd then one day the bad thing happened and it didn't open the files.

56:41SPEAKERAnd then I was like, Oh no, never doing that again.

56:44SPEAKERWell, then I sent out about a bunch of press keys for the anacrusis to people that already

56:47SPEAKERhad gotten act that the keys were already activated.

56:49SPEAKERBut because I hadn't saved the file, I didn't know.

56:52SPEAKERI had to be fair.

56:52SPEAKERNone of my unsafe tabs are that important.

56:55SPEAKERYeah.

56:56SPEAKERLast thing I'll say real quick in the course of looking up word pad.

56:59SPEAKERYes.

57:00SPEAKERDid you know that there is a Microsoft fandom wiki?

57:03SPEAKERLike a fan, like microsoft.fandom.com.

57:06SPEAKERYes.

57:06SPEAKERLike capital F fandom microsoft.fandom.com.

57:10SPEAKERLike I, I thought fandom was reserved for like, you know, anime and tabletop and things

57:15SPEAKERof that nature.

57:16SPEAKERThere's video games, Brad.

57:18SPEAKERThere is a wiki.

57:19SPEAKERThere was a fan wiki for Microsoft.

57:22SPEAKERThat's kind of amazing.

57:23SPEAKERDo they have like a Jim Allchin page?

57:25SPEAKERProbably.

57:25SPEAKERI don't know.

57:25SPEAKERBut the windows 95 page on there is actually pretty good because you can see the boot up

57:29SPEAKERscreens from like all the beta versions of windows.

57:33SPEAKERThey do have a Jim Allchin page.

57:35SPEAKERWe'll even know who that is, but I am.

57:37SPEAKERHe was the architect on Vista.

57:40SPEAKEROh, okay.

57:41SPEAKERYeah.

57:41SPEAKERHe retired in early 2007, oddly coincidentally, right after Vista shift.

57:46SPEAKERAh, weird.

57:47SPEAKERWho would have thought?

57:47SPEAKERWeird.

57:48SPEAKERBut I can see all the boot up screens for various versions of Chicago here.

57:52SPEAKEROh man.

57:53SPEAKERChicago was XP.

57:54SPEAKERNo, Chicago was one of those 95.

57:55SPEAKERThat was the code name for a windows 85.

57:57SPEAKEROh, wow.

57:58SPEAKERYeah, this is a, this is going to destroy me.

58:01SPEAKERThank you for sharing this.

58:02SPEAKERI appreciate it.

58:02SPEAKERYep.

58:03SPEAKERThere was a lot of stuff on here.

58:05SPEAKERI had no idea that they had a fandom, like this is, this is just conceptually very, very

58:11SPEAKERstrange to me, Brad.

58:12SPEAKERYeah, I get it.

58:14SPEAKERI'll look at those windows 3.1 desktops.

58:16SPEAKERThat is some hot business right there.

58:17SPEAKERYou see the print manager.

58:19SPEAKEROh, this is the good stuff.

58:21SPEAKERYep.

58:21SPEAKERIt sure is.

58:22SPEAKERYou want to walk down memory lane.

58:23SPEAKEROkay.

58:24SPEAKERAlso, I just, I Googled a picture of Jim Altman.

58:26SPEAKERI think he did an interview on YouTube like a year or two ago that I really need to watch.

58:31SPEAKERIn Dave's garage?

58:33SPEAKERYes.

58:33SPEAKERThat's the one.

58:33SPEAKERDid he go talk to Dave?

58:35SPEAKERI don't know.

58:36SPEAKEROkay.

58:36SPEAKERYou mean, you mean the guy who wrote everything in Windows effort?

58:40SPEAKERLook, Dave, Dave is great.

58:42SPEAKERI like Dave's garage.

58:43SPEAKERYeah, I believe it.

58:44SPEAKERYeah.

58:45SPEAKERI believe he did write quite a bit of that software.

58:47SPEAKERI, knowing what I know now about how things actually work in the real world, I have no

58:52SPEAKERdoubt in my mind that some, there's a hand, a very small number of people who contributed

58:57SPEAKERan enormous amount of code to early computing that is still lingering.

59:02SPEAKERI don't doubt him.

59:04SPEAKERI have no evidence that he didn't write any of that stuff.

59:06SPEAKERI just, it was in my algorithm so much for a while that it really felt like.

59:10SPEAKERLook, the algorithm knows, Brad.

59:11SPEAKERThey know what you crave.

59:12SPEAKERI guess so.

59:13SPEAKERBut anyway, I have seen some clips of that Alton interview that he did.

59:16SPEAKERAnd I think, I think it was him and it might've been somebody else actually.

59:20SPEAKERJim, I got to talk to Jim a couple of times for different stuff.

59:23SPEAKERHe was, he was one of the, he was of the straight shooter variety who then accidentally made

59:31SPEAKERVista and had to have a, like, it was, it was, I felt bad for him.

59:35SPEAKERYeah.

59:35SPEAKERI could see that.

59:36SPEAKERI will say whoever this interview was, I think there were references to like OS2 and Zenix,

59:40SPEAKERwhich was Microsoft's version of Unix, a lot of fun old operating system stuff in there.

59:44SPEAKERWe should do an episode about Zenix sometime.

59:47SPEAKERSo I can talk how much about how I wish Zenix had one instead of DOS

59:50SPEAKERand how different the computing world would be.

59:52SPEAKERIt would have been a different world.

59:54SPEAKERYeah.

59:54SPEAKERSo he was on Dave's garage.

59:55SPEAKEROkay.

59:56SPEAKERYeah.

59:56SPEAKERYeah.

59:57SPEAKERI need to watch that full interview.

59:58SPEAKEROh, wait, hold on.

59:59SPEAKERNope.

59:59SPEAKERNope.

1:00:00SPEAKERI apologize.

1:00:00SPEAKERHe talked to Dave Cutler is who you're thinking about.

1:00:03SPEAKERThat's it.

1:00:03SPEAKERThat's that's the one.

1:00:04SPEAKERYeah.

1:00:05SPEAKERAnd Dave, it's confusing because Dave's garage is run by Dave plumber who wrote task manager

1:00:10SPEAKERand Dave, Dave Cutler just doesn't talk to press at all.

1:00:16SPEAKEROh.

1:00:16SPEAKERBut he, he basically wrote a buttload of software.

1:00:21SPEAKEROh, he was the architect of windows NT.

1:00:24SPEAKERYeah.

1:00:24SPEAKERThat's what it was.

1:00:26SPEAKERThat's what he was talking about in there is that they, I think that was the clip I saw was that

1:00:30SPEAKERthere was a point where they were not sure what the next generation of Microsoft operating system was.

1:00:35SPEAKERAnd then windows 3.1 blew up out of nowhere.

1:00:37SPEAKERAnd then they were like, okay, I guess it's windows then.

1:00:39SPEAKERAnd then that's when they started the NT project.

1:00:41SPEAKERYeah, that's it.

1:00:42SPEAKERIt's a three hour interview.

1:00:44SPEAKERIt's worth, it's worth watching.

1:00:46SPEAKERAnyway, it's, it's, it's, it's nice.

1:00:48SPEAKERCause it's like the guys that made this whole thing happen.

1:00:51SPEAKEROh, you're, you're hearing the stories now because they can talk about them.

1:00:54SPEAKERCause they're not afraid that Bill Gates is going to come to their house and break their knees.

1:00:56SPEAKERYes, they got their payouts already.

1:00:58SPEAKERSo they're probably okay.

1:00:59SPEAKERRight.

1:01:00SPEAKERAnd they all have replacement needs now.

1:01:02SPEAKERSo they're probably fine.

1:01:03SPEAKERAnyway, on that note the podcast, I think has come to a close.

1:01:07SPEAKERYeah.

1:01:08SPEAKERAnd this is the time when I remind you all that this is a listener supported show.

1:01:11SPEAKERWe wouldn't be here without you, the listener.

1:01:14SPEAKERAnd if you would like to find out how to support the show, you can go to patreon.com/techbaud,

1:01:18SPEAKERwhere for five bucks, you get access to our monthly episodes, our monthly Patreon exclusive

1:01:22SPEAKERepisodes, where we often talk about like projects that are going on and kind of in the background

1:01:25SPEAKERthat may or may not become eventual episodes.

1:01:28SPEAKERIt's, it's a place for us to talk about what's front of mind.

1:01:32SPEAKERAnd we have quite a bit of fun there, but you also get access to the discord,

1:01:34SPEAKERwhich is full of beautiful nerds, just like you.

1:01:37SPEAKERIt's a great place to ask questions and to chat about things you love and are interested

1:01:40SPEAKERand you're curious about.

1:01:42SPEAKERAnd, and I, everybody like, look, we have a, we have a pretty vibrant community in there

1:01:48SPEAKERthat I think we are always welcome, always welcome new folks in.

1:01:51SPEAKERWe sure do.

1:01:52SPEAKERIt's a fun place.

1:01:53SPEAKERIt is.

1:01:53SPEAKERIt is.

1:01:54SPEAKERI mean, inclusivity is our byword.

1:01:56SPEAKERSo you can, you can find out about that by going to patreon.com/techbaud.

1:02:00SPEAKERIt's five bucks a month and it helps us keep doing the show, which we appreciate.

1:02:04SPEAKERIt doesn't just help.

1:02:05SPEAKERIt enables.

1:02:05SPEAKERYeah.

1:02:06SPEAKERIt's the reason.

1:02:07SPEAKERIf I was like, Hey honey, I got to spend all this time every week, really reading about

1:02:11SPEAKERstuff for the podcast and it, and I didn't make any money off of it.

1:02:14SPEAKERShe would have pretty strong feelings, rightly so.

1:02:18SPEAKERSo anyway, this is the part of the show where we thank our patrons.

1:02:21SPEAKERThank you, patrons.

1:02:22SPEAKERThank you, patrons.

1:02:23SPEAKERBut especially our executive producer tier patrons, including Andrew Slosky, Crow, Jordan

1:02:29SPEAKERLippitt, Bunnyfiend, Twinkle Twinkie, David Allen, James Kamik, and Pantheon, makers of

1:02:35SPEAKERthe HS3 high-speed 3d printer.

1:02:37SPEAKERI also should remind people that you can do gift Patreons now.

1:02:43SPEAKEROh.

1:02:44SPEAKERSo if you have a friend who you think would enjoy being the community, you don't know

1:02:46SPEAKERhow to do it, hit us on the discord.

1:02:48SPEAKERWe can explain it.

1:02:50SPEAKERBut you can buy a gift subscription to the podcast, to the Patreon for a year and invite

1:02:56SPEAKERpeople that you like and think would be good contributors into our, into our little community,

1:03:00SPEAKERinto the community, which is awesome.

1:03:01SPEAKERIf the gift that keeps on giving.

1:03:03SPEAKERYeah.

1:03:04SPEAKERAccess to Bradley.

1:03:05SPEAKERYeah.

1:03:06SPEAKERSounds bad when you say it that way.

1:03:07SPEAKERGeez.

1:03:09SPEAKERWell, I'm, I'm going to get on a plane tomorrow and go see Taylor Swift.

1:03:12SPEAKERYeah.

1:03:12SPEAKERYeah.

1:03:12SPEAKERHave fun.

1:03:13SPEAKERGood luck.

1:03:13SPEAKERI am excited.

1:03:14SPEAKERWe got, I got a lot of really lovely recommendations and invitations from folks last week.

1:03:19SPEAKERAnd I appreciate all of that.

1:03:21SPEAKERWe're, we're sadly just in Vancouver for like two nights because they jacked up the price

1:03:26SPEAKERon the hotels to Taylor Swift levels.

1:03:30SPEAKERBut maybe next time.

1:03:31SPEAKERSo thanks everybody for the, for the invites and the suggestions.

1:03:34SPEAKERIf anybody has a ramen place, they like hit me up though.

1:03:36SPEAKERI'd love to know.

1:03:36SPEAKERCause I did promise the kiddo some good ramen while we're there.

1:03:40SPEAKERBut that'll do it for us this week.

1:03:41SPEAKERWe will be back next week with another episode and maybe a report on what Taylor's like.

1:03:47SPEAKERI don't know.

1:03:48SPEAKERJust do an episode about the Taylor Swift show.

1:03:50SPEAKERDude.

1:03:50SPEAKERI've watched a lot of Taylor Swift shows on TikTok over the last year.

1:03:54SPEAKERCause well, cause my wife has watched a lot of TikTok shows on up to anyway.

1:03:58SPEAKERIt's it's an, I'm excited to see it.

1:03:59SPEAKERIt'll be fun.

1:04:00SPEAKERAll right, I look forward to hearing about it.

1:04:02SPEAKERWe will see you all next week.

1:04:03SPEAKERThanks for listening everybody.

1:04:04SPEAKERYou have a lovely week.

1:04:05SPEAKERBye.