00:00SPEAKER- I thought about putting my portable apps directory
00:02SPEAKERin Dropbox and then just having portable apps everywhere.
00:07SPEAKER- I don't know, man.
00:08SPEAKERI don't know.
00:09SPEAKER- That seemed stupid, but also really smart.
00:11SPEAKERIt seemed like smooth brain, smart.
00:13SPEAKER- Exactly.
00:15SPEAKERIt seems like the kind of thing that should be smart,
00:17SPEAKERbut is in fact dumb because they didn't do it right.
00:20SPEAKER- Yeah, like I'm sure that if I do that,
00:24SPEAKERsome stuff's not gonna work right.
00:26SPEAKER- Yes, I can 100%, I would stake money upon it.
00:29SPEAKERAnd it will be unpredictable and it'll be something
00:31SPEAKERthat probably like one other lunatic has also experienced.
00:35SPEAKERAnd everybody else will be like,
00:36SPEAKERman, I've never seen a bug like that before.
00:37SPEAKERCan you just, can you submit logs?
00:38SPEAKER- And it'll be something that you can't be sure,
00:40SPEAKERbut suspect that is because of Dropbox.
00:43SPEAKER- Well, yeah.
00:44SPEAKERAnd it's like, when you have a problem
00:45SPEAKERand you report the problem,
00:46SPEAKERyou'll have to lead that conversation.
00:48SPEAKEREvery one of those conversations with,
00:50SPEAKERI'm doing something kind of stupid, but.
00:52SPEAKER- Uh-huh.
00:53SPEAKERThat's when you get a bunch of people running interference
00:55SPEAKERby just saying, why are you doing that?
00:57SPEAKERWe're not going to address your problem.
00:58SPEAKERWe're just going to question why the hell are you doing that?
01:00SPEAKER- Yeah, like your choices have led you unworthy for support.
01:04SPEAKERI'm sorry, sir.
01:04SPEAKER- Yeah, yes.
01:05SPEAKERAlthough, frankly, why the hell are you doing that
01:07SPEAKERis where I live in computing for the most part.
01:09SPEAKERSo.
01:10SPEAKER- You do.
01:11SPEAKER- I'd like to, I look, I like to push things to the limit.
01:15SPEAKERLet's say.
01:15SPEAKER- Past the point of no return?
01:17SPEAKER- Yeah.
01:17SPEAKERDid you see, well, you probably didn't see.
01:19SPEAKERYou don't have AM5.
01:20SPEAKERNoctua announced an offset bracket for AM5
01:24SPEAKERfor their tower coolers at Computex.
01:26SPEAKER- Oh, that's nice.
01:27SPEAKER- It's yeah, it's, I mean, it's,
01:28SPEAKERI think conceptually it's interesting because the,
01:31SPEAKERdo you know what the package looks like on the new risings?
01:33SPEAKER- Yeah, it was there when you put it in your computer.
01:35SPEAKER- No, no, the package underneath the heat spreader.
01:37SPEAKERI mean, like the layout, the layout of the dyes,
01:39SPEAKERit's the, there's an IO dye.
01:41SPEAKER- It's asymmetrical, right?
01:42SPEAKER- Yeah, so yes, the IO dye and the two CCDs sit like down
01:46SPEAKERat the bottom of the package rather than right in the middle.
01:50SPEAKERSo this is an offset bracket to move the cooler down
01:52SPEAKERright over that hotspot where the dyes are.
01:54SPEAKER- Oh, so the sweet spot of the pipes,
01:56SPEAKERthe most pipes are directly over there.
01:57SPEAKERWow, that's interesting.
01:58SPEAKER- Yes, and I bring this up because I got an immediate,
02:00SPEAKERwhy are you doing that on the Discord when I said,
02:04SPEAKERyeah, I'm gonna get one of those.
02:06SPEAKER'Cause even Noctua's testing said it's one to three degrees
02:09SPEAKERCelsius reduction in temperatures.
02:11SPEAKER- That's not worth taking your computer apart.
02:13SPEAKER- It's only $5.
02:15SPEAKER- It's not worth, you're gonna have to redo the goo.
02:17SPEAKER- Oh, I know, that's no.
02:18SPEAKER- Oh no, 'cause you have the graphite pad.
02:20SPEAKER- I used the graphite pad and everybody was like,
02:22SPEAKERsure, but how often do you actually take your cooler off
02:25SPEAKERto not want to redo paste all the time?
02:27SPEAKERAnd here we are less than two months later
02:29SPEAKERwith me taking my cooler off.
02:30SPEAKER- Can I point out that isn't the graphite pad
02:32SPEAKERlike one to three degrees Celsius less efficient
02:35SPEAKERthan not using the graphite pad
02:36SPEAKERand using something good instead?
02:37SPEAKER- Depends on who you ask.
02:39SPEAKER- Okay. (laughs)
02:43SPEAKER(upbeat music)
02:55SPEAKER(upbeat music)
03:11SPEAKER- Welcome to "Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod."
03:14SPEAKERI'm Will. - I'm Brad.
03:16SPEAKER- Hi Brad, how you doing?
03:17SPEAKER- Hello, I'm doing well.
03:18SPEAKERI'm not wearing a gigantic $3,500 slab of aluminum
03:21SPEAKERand glass on my face, so.
03:23SPEAKER- Wow, spoilers, man.
03:24SPEAKER- I'm probably gonna put it in the episode description.
03:28SPEAKER- Yeah, okay, look, it should be the name of the episode
03:31SPEAKERas Norm is here to talk about the Apple Vision Pro.
03:36SPEAKER- Yes, Vision Pro, I don't know about that name.
03:38SPEAKERI'm not sure, it doesn't sound like an Apple name to me.
03:43SPEAKER- Well, it has pro and it has a word and it has Apple,
03:46SPEAKERbut they don't go together in the right order or something.
03:49SPEAKERAnyway, our friend, our longtime friend,
03:52SPEAKERmy former colleague at multiple sites and multiple
03:55SPEAKERprint magazines, all the way back to the Maximum PC
03:57SPEAKERin PC Gamer Days, Norman Chan, currently of tested.com
04:02SPEAKERand the Tested YouTube channel is here today
04:05SPEAKERto talk to us about his experiences
04:08SPEAKERgoing to the Apple Mothership
04:11SPEAKERand sitting in the Steve Jobs Theater
04:13SPEAKERand watching a video like we all did at home,
04:15SPEAKERbut he was in the Steve Jobs Theater
04:16SPEAKERand then going into a special little room
04:18SPEAKERand getting to put on and use the brand newly announced,
04:22SPEAKERnot available until next year, Apple Vision Pro.
04:24SPEAKERWelcome to the show, Norm.
04:26SPEAKER(upbeat music)
04:28SPEAKEROkay, holy cow, after 12, 13 years of doing Tested,
04:33SPEAKERthere's no video on the podcast, Norm,
04:34SPEAKERso your finger guns don't count.
04:36SPEAKER- Oh my God, wow.
04:38SPEAKER- Norman Chan, you were invited as a Tested employee,
04:42SPEAKERas a Tested representative to cover an Apple event
04:47SPEAKERwith behind the scenes hardware access.
04:49SPEAKERThe whole deal, 13 long years,
04:52SPEAKERthe dream has finally come true.
04:54SPEAKER- I feel like there's some context here
04:55SPEAKERthat I might be missing.
04:57SPEAKER- You could say that all 13 years was built up to yesterday.
05:00SPEAKER- Norm and I used to joke when we were sitting in the cafe.
05:04SPEAKERSo, okay, for people who don't know,
05:06SPEAKERwe talked about this in the intro, I'm sure,
05:07SPEAKERbut Norm and Brad and I worked together
05:09SPEAKERin a small shop in Sausalito, California
05:13SPEAKERand there was this diner down the street
05:15SPEAKERthat we would go to and drink coffee
05:16SPEAKERand eat fried eggs and hash browns and talk about content.
05:21SPEAKERAnd we used to joke, 'cause I always sent an email
05:23SPEAKERasking for access to Apple events,
05:25SPEAKERknowing that they were going to say no,
05:27SPEAKERthat at no point would they ever allow us in
05:30SPEAKERto get actual hands-on access to stuff
05:32SPEAKERwhen they were rolling out.
05:33SPEAKER- They would not go that far down the bottom of the barrel.
05:35SPEAKERIt was a deep barrel.
05:36SPEAKER- Yeah, there were way more apples in the barrel above us
05:39SPEAKERwhen they finally got to us. - Oh my goodness, yes.
05:41SPEAKER- So congratulations, Norm.
05:44SPEAKER- Thank you, thank you. - You have access now.
05:47SPEAKER- But yeah, how was it?
05:48SPEAKERWhat is the, they announced the AR glasses
05:52SPEAKERthat are not called AR glasses, yeah.
05:54SPEAKER- AVP, let's not call it AVP.
05:57SPEAKER- No, please don't.
05:58SPEAKER- I heard myself doing it internally multiple times a day
06:01SPEAKERafter seeing someone bend from Road to VR
06:03SPEAKERcall it AVP on Twitter and then I started saying AVP
06:08SPEAKERand I know it's gonna catch at some point,
06:10SPEAKERbut for today, for this grace period of 20,
06:13SPEAKERless than 24 hours after the first day of WWDC,
06:16SPEAKERlet's keep it Apple Vision Pro.
06:18SPEAKER- I like AVP Pro.
06:19SPEAKERI mean, this is a whoever wins, we lose situation though,
06:22SPEAKERright? - It is, you're right.
06:24SPEAKERThen yes, great tagline, yes, absolutely.
06:27SPEAKER- It's the best part of those movies.
06:28SPEAKER- Any game or movie, right?
06:29SPEAKEROoh, what's the reference?
06:31SPEAKERDo you want the, before we dive into the hardware,
06:33SPEAKERhow much time do you wanna fill?
06:34SPEAKERYou wanna talk about the whole experience
06:35SPEAKERof getting the invite and going to the mothership?
06:38SPEAKER- So yeah, like I kind of, I mean, I feel, okay,
06:42SPEAKERit's early hardware.
06:43SPEAKERWe can do the high points, right?
06:45SPEAKERIt's gonna be starting at $3,500,
06:47SPEAKERwhich is a real interesting, like that starting at
06:49SPEAKERis carrying a lot of weight there,
06:50SPEAKER'cause I assume that it's gonna be like a,
06:52SPEAKERyou know, you can get the 128 gig one for 3,500 bucks
06:55SPEAKERand then for another 200 bucks,
06:56SPEAKERyou'd get 512 gigs or some nonsense.
06:59SPEAKER- I don't believe it's gonna be capacity.
07:00SPEAKERIt's gonna be prescription lenses and...
07:04SPEAKER- Oh, and the band and stuff like that.
07:06SPEAKERDo you, if you want the Hermes leather double tour band.
07:09SPEAKER- I don't know if they'll do that.
07:11SPEAKERYeah, they're not positioning, it's not premium,
07:14SPEAKERit's not a high end in that sense.
07:16SPEAKER- Okay.
07:16SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it'll be a status symbol,
07:18SPEAKERbut I believe it's gonna be probably
07:20SPEAKERall the fit and fit accessories
07:22SPEAKERto make it wear best and most usable.
07:24SPEAKER- So, okay, 3,500 bucks, shipping next year,
07:27SPEAKERpre-orders start next year,
07:28SPEAKERshipping sometime next year, presumably.
07:30SPEAKER- Presumably, they didn't even say shipping next year.
07:32SPEAKERI mean, I think they would say available early next year,
07:35SPEAKERwhich is what they said when they announced the Apple Watch
07:38SPEAKERand that ended up shipping in April.
07:40SPEAKER- Well, and they also used similar language
07:43SPEAKERwhen they pre-announced the iPhone,
07:46SPEAKER'cause they wanted to kind of prime the pump before,
07:49SPEAKERand they announced it way before.
07:50SPEAKERIt wasn't, when they announced the first iPhone,
07:52SPEAKERit wasn't like, "Hey, you can buy this on Friday."
07:55SPEAKERIt was, "It's gonna be available later this year."
07:57SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
07:58SPEAKERHow much do your listeners want to get
08:00SPEAKERin terms of the context of the buildup,
08:01SPEAKERanticipation, what the rumors were,
08:03SPEAKERwhat the other companies were doing in this space
08:06SPEAKERleading up to before yesterday?
08:07SPEAKER- I feel like--
08:08SPEAKER- The world before and the world after.
08:09SPEAKER- I feel like we're pretty well informed
08:11SPEAKERabout what Facebook was up to.
08:13SPEAKERI kind of don't care about rumors.
08:15SPEAKERI'm like, this is something we've talked about
08:17SPEAKERthat's been kind of percolating for five years-ish now.
08:22SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
08:23SPEAKERI mean, I think as soon as VR hit
08:26SPEAKERthat first hockey stick growth curve
08:32SPEAKERbefore the well was poisoned,
08:34SPEAKERI think it did in terms of investment, right?
08:36SPEAKERNot a, I don't think adoption, but certainly investment.
08:40SPEAKERThere was a lot of hype around it.
08:41SPEAKER- Yeah, capability.
08:43SPEAKER- Yeah, and Apple started working on something as they do,
08:46SPEAKERlike the rumored TV stuff, the rumored car stuff.
08:49SPEAKERAnd so the word was they wanted to get something right.
08:53SPEAKERAnd this was presumably an announcement
08:56SPEAKERthat they had pushed back a couple of years.
09:00SPEAKERBut at this point, what's the state of the market, right?
09:02SPEAKERYou have Quest 2 already, a couple of years old,
09:04SPEAKERQuest 3 coming out this year.
09:06SPEAKERQuest Pro dipping into more of a productivity space
09:11SPEAKERand making pass-through AR more acceptable.
09:16SPEAKERYou have the optical pass-through headsets
09:18SPEAKERreally failing to launch, both in HoloLens and Magic Leap,
09:23SPEAKEReven though you have two generations of both those headsets.
09:26SPEAKERAnd yeah, I think Apple probably looked at development
09:29SPEAKERthey were doing internally, looked at the market.
09:31SPEAKERAnd even though they don't like jumping in first,
09:34SPEAKERthey really want to set the tone.
09:35SPEAKERAnd we'll talk about tone and all the language they use
09:38SPEAKERwhen they announce this.
09:39SPEAKERBut I'm sure they didn't want the well to be poisoned
09:42SPEAKERtoo much with metaverse talk
09:44SPEAKERand to really put their foot in the ground
09:47SPEAKERwith essentially a developer kit.
09:49SPEAKER- Yeah, it's interesting 'cause like this whole thing,
09:51SPEAKERI watched it a couple of times now
09:53SPEAKERand then watched what people...
09:56SPEAKERNorm did a great video over on the Tested YouTube channel
09:58SPEAKERthat we'll link in the show notes
10:00SPEAKERthat kind of walks through his demo experience
10:03SPEAKERand what they showed, what he saw.
10:07SPEAKERBut it's an inside out video pass-through AR headset
10:14SPEAKERthat does slam tracking.
10:16SPEAKERIt has a bunch of cameras for hand tracking.
10:19SPEAKERIt has a bunch of stuff for eye tracking inside,
10:21SPEAKERwhich is kind of new in this.
10:23SPEAKERI mean, the Quest Pro does that, I guess,
10:25SPEAKERbut that's the newer end of the technology.
10:29SPEAKERIt can do foveated rendering, presumably.
10:31SPEAKER- It does, yep.
10:33SPEAKER- And I think the big thing is they're putting
10:36SPEAKERessentially an iPad on your face.
10:40SPEAKERLike it's an M2 processor, so iPad processor,
10:44SPEAKERvery capable, same thing that's in the MacBook,
10:45SPEAKERin MacBook Airs and the small MacBooks
10:48SPEAKERand presumably the new desktop one too.
10:52SPEAKERAnd then they also have a special chip
10:54SPEAKERthat does all the, presumably handles
10:56SPEAKERthe video pass-through processing
10:58SPEAKERso that it's very low latency and all of that stuff.
11:00SPEAKERAnd they kind of, the interesting thing to me
11:05SPEAKERisn't even all the technology stuff,
11:06SPEAKER'cause yeah, sure, Apple's gonna do good hardware,
11:09SPEAKERbut they're positioning it as,
11:11SPEAKERhey, this is a thing that you can do your 2D stuff in
11:13SPEAKERthat also does a little bit of VR stuff,
11:16SPEAKERis a real choice.
11:19SPEAKERAnd I don't, I kinda don't, like I get it,
11:23SPEAKERwe, I've covered--
11:24SPEAKER- I think it speaks to two things.
11:25SPEAKER- Okay.
11:26SPEAKER- It speaks to one, they definitely don't want to be,
11:30SPEAKERthis to be positioned as a VR device,
11:31SPEAKEReven though it fundamentally is a virtual reality device.
11:34SPEAKER- Yeah.
11:35SPEAKER- Like if you look at the fundamental technology,
11:36SPEAKERit is a virtual reality headset with pass-through video.
11:39SPEAKERThey're even really used, aside from Tim Cook saying
11:42SPEAKERhe believes augmented reality is one of the futures
11:44SPEAKERof technology, they never in their press releases
11:46SPEAKERuse the words augmented reality as a spatial reality device.
11:51SPEAKERAnd so they wanna kind of redefine the technology
11:55SPEAKERon their own terms, which is a very Apple thing to do.
11:58SPEAKERNo mention of metaverse, no mention,
12:00SPEAKERwhich is a strength of meta Facebook,
12:02SPEAKERconnectivity, networking.
12:03SPEAKER- Yeah.
12:04SPEAKER- And I think it speaks to that, right?
12:06SPEAKERSo that's one reason.
12:08SPEAKERAnd the other reason is as they're putting a bunch
12:11SPEAKERof use cases out and that they've developed
12:14SPEAKERand that they're working with developers develop,
12:16SPEAKERI don't think, like the watch,
12:17SPEAKERthey're really trying to throw things at the wall
12:19SPEAKERand see what's gonna stick.
12:20SPEAKERAnd one of the things they're throwing out
12:22SPEAKERto get people interested is the large library of iPad
12:27SPEAKERand iOS applications, which by that token
12:30SPEAKERmeans they're really leveraging 2D interactions
12:35SPEAKERin a 3D space as a primary first use case.
12:40SPEAKER- I mean, that's the thing that they have
12:41SPEAKERthat nobody else in this space has, right?
12:43SPEAKEREven Google, Google has a mobile app ecosystem
12:48SPEAKERand people in that space, but Facebook has nobody,
12:51SPEAKERnobody's using Facebook, nobody wants to use Facebook OS
12:55SPEAKERto do their work stuff or their home computing stuff, right?
12:58SPEAKEREven Microsoft struggled with this,
13:00SPEAKERwith the HoloLens stuff, 'cause basically the HoloLens
13:03SPEAKERis a device that your corporation buys
13:05SPEAKERand builds custom apps for if you have workers
13:07SPEAKERthat need AR access to information.
13:10SPEAKERThe, "Hey, here's something you can buy for $3,500
13:14SPEAKER"that makes your Mac screen real big,"
13:18SPEAKERor lets you have a wall of Mac screens in front of you,
13:22SPEAKERis kind of an interesting positioning
13:26SPEAKERfor what's essentially a VR headset.
13:29SPEAKER- They didn't, they don't just have that.
13:30SPEAKERThey led with that.
13:31SPEAKERLike that was the beginning of the presentation
13:33SPEAKERand also like 80% of it, it was like literally.
13:35SPEAKER- And I'm not sure how much of that is market research
13:37SPEAKERdriven or internal testing driven.
13:39SPEAKERLike did they survey users or based on their testing,
13:44SPEAKERthat's what they feel is the strongest part of this,
13:47SPEAKERor if that's where they feel like they're gonna get most
13:49SPEAKERof the early customer adoption, where it's gonna be,
13:52SPEAKERyeah, like designers who have $3,500 businesses
13:55SPEAKERwith early seed money, who are making millions
13:57SPEAKERand tens of millions on selling CAD parts
14:00SPEAKERand designing complex machinery who need this,
14:03SPEAKERwhere it's proven that those companies
14:05SPEAKERare already spending money on HoloLens
14:06SPEAKERand already spending money on the Vario headsets.
14:09SPEAKER- They had gotten through both Microsoft Office
14:10SPEAKERand I think that virtual production line, right?
14:12SPEAKERLike, "Hey, you can see a 3D representation
14:14SPEAKER"of the new production line you're about to tool up,"
14:16SPEAKERbefore they ever got to, "By the way, here's like
14:19SPEAKER"this constellation app somebody made for it.
14:20SPEAKER"Here's some new stuff.
14:21SPEAKER"Also, let's pay lip service to Unity and video games
14:24SPEAKER"for three minutes."
14:26SPEAKER- Or the human interaction,
14:27SPEAKERlike the connectivity to the FaceTime, right?
14:29SPEAKERYou would think that one of the strengths of Apple
14:31SPEAKERis the strong emotional connection that people have
14:34SPEAKERand the devices allow people to have together, right?
14:38SPEAKERApple is all about the feeling you have
14:40SPEAKERwhen you use these devices and how they connect you
14:42SPEAKERwith people, and that was, it was there.
14:45SPEAKERYou know, the FaceTime stuff was there,
14:46SPEAKERand the capturing memories was there.
14:48SPEAKERBut I don't think it was as pronounced
14:50SPEAKERas some of the other, you know, applications,
14:52SPEAKERwhich I think that speaks to them still figuring this out.
14:56SPEAKERFrom the hardware's perspective, you know,
14:58SPEAKERwith the competitive advantage, like price notwithstanding,
15:00SPEAKERright, well, what makes this headset different is,
15:04SPEAKERyou know, one Apple has access to the suppliers
15:08SPEAKERthat many, even the biggest companies,
15:11SPEAKERmay not have access to, including their own hardware.
15:14SPEAKERSo, yes, the Apple Silicon,
15:16SPEAKERwhich is gonna be the most efficient, right?
15:18SPEAKERAnd maybe the display suppliers that I'm sure
15:22SPEAKERother companies like Facebook or Meta have investigated,
15:24SPEAKERbut Apple can buy them at quantity
15:26SPEAKERor can claim rights on those.
15:30SPEAKERThe tight integration with their entire ecosystem,
15:33SPEAKERso like you said, you know, no one wants to use,
15:35SPEAKERthere is no equivalent of Mac OS on any other platform.
15:40SPEAKEREveryone is just graphing on Android.
15:43SPEAKERSo the perfect example of that is their demo
15:45SPEAKERof using a virtual desktop, where for them,
15:48SPEAKERyou know, you hover the headset, look over the MacBook,
15:51SPEAKERand you're gonna automatically sync up
15:53SPEAKERand have the virtual desktop pop up.
15:55SPEAKERFor Meta, the MetaQuest Pro has a version of that.
15:59SPEAKERYou know, if you just look at check boxes,
16:00SPEAKERthey have a virtual desktop feature that requires,
16:03SPEAKERand it works with MacBooks,
16:04SPEAKERand that requires installing a client,
16:07SPEAKERtyping in, you know, authorization codes, manually syncing,
16:12SPEAKERhaving a kind of bit rate dependent internet quality,
16:16SPEAKERlocal wifi dependent connection,
16:18SPEAKERand it's clunky compared to what they can do.
16:21SPEAKER- And like, this is the place that Apple excels with,
16:25SPEAKERlike this is, it's one of those things
16:26SPEAKERthat like I didn't really appreciate
16:27SPEAKERuntil I had a watch, a phone, and AirPods, right?
16:31SPEAKERHow seamlessly the whole thing works together.
16:34SPEAKERApple has been quietly putting these UWP radios
16:37SPEAKERin their devices for the last few years.
16:40SPEAKERSo all of your Apple stuff has a thing in it
16:42SPEAKERthat's gonna let this know, when you look at it,
16:44SPEAKERwhat it is, and know that it's yours,
16:46SPEAKERand that you can just connect to it,
16:48SPEAKERand all of a sudden your iPad shows up in the headset.
16:51SPEAKERI mean, it's convenient that it means
16:52SPEAKERthat you end up buying a bunch of different Apple things
16:54SPEAKERthat all work together really nicely.
16:56SPEAKER- And that's not easy, right?
16:57SPEAKERIt's not just like, you know, you can say,
16:59SPEAKERoh, it makes sense because, you know,
17:00SPEAKERyou buy a family of devices and they should work together.
17:03SPEAKERThat should working together,
17:04SPEAKERand it does working together in a seamless way,
17:07SPEAKERis a complicated thing that they've built in
17:09SPEAKERand worked on over time, which you can't, you know,
17:13SPEAKERthat I can't just buy a, you know, a laptop company
17:16SPEAKERor buy a watch company and make these things work.
17:19SPEAKERIt's very tight because it's at these fundamentals.
17:21SPEAKER- Yeah, they'd have to buy Microsoft.
17:23SPEAKER- Yeah.
17:25SPEAKER- So, okay, like on the hardware itself,
17:29SPEAKERthere's a couple other things that are weird
17:30SPEAKERand interesting about this.
17:31SPEAKERThe outward-facing screen, the eye tracking sounds great.
17:34SPEAKERThe magnet on lenses inside are,
17:36SPEAKERas somebody who wears glasses and needs them to see,
17:38SPEAKERI'm very excited about that
17:39SPEAKER'cause the clip-in ones are fine, but this sounds better.
17:43SPEAKER- Sorry, let me jump in.
17:45SPEAKERIs that included?
17:45SPEAKERHow does, is that for prescription?
17:47SPEAKER- No, so I, yeah, I think this is where you get,
17:49SPEAKERyou're starting at 3,500.
17:51SPEAKERSo what they said is, you know, the way they designed it,
17:54SPEAKERand we'll talk about, as I describe this,
17:56SPEAKERa lot of it will be in reference to the Quest Pro.
17:59SPEAKEROne of the things I like about the Quest Pro is there,
18:02SPEAKERthe way you put it on, the glasses fit,
18:04SPEAKERlike underneath the lenses.
18:06SPEAKERThere's no pressure point to where,
18:08SPEAKERit's 'cause it's a halo-style head strap.
18:10SPEAKERSo the pressure points on your forehead,
18:12SPEAKERnot on your brow or your cheeks.
18:15SPEAKERHere they want the lenses as close to your eyes as possible,
18:18SPEAKERso you're not gonna be able to wear glasses underneath this.
18:21SPEAKERAnd so anyone who does need a prescription,
18:23SPEAKEReither you're gonna need contacts,
18:25SPEAKERor you're gonna give them your prescription,
18:26SPEAKERand then Zeiss, as their manufacturing partner,
18:30SPEAKERwill make the lenses that automatically
18:32SPEAKERmagnetically attach.
18:33SPEAKERAnd, you know, VR headsets have lenses that you can clip on,
18:37SPEAKERbut those are aftermarket accessories,
18:39SPEAKERand some of them are magnetically attached,
18:41SPEAKERbut you do, for the most part, need to have like,
18:43SPEAKERto install a frame that then the magnet lens grips onto,
18:48SPEAKERand adds a lot of bulk.
18:49SPEAKER- Did they talk about,
18:51SPEAKERit also keeps your eyes further from the lenses,
18:52SPEAKERwhich means it reduces your FOV.
18:55SPEAKERDid they talk about, like,
18:57SPEAKERpeople with complicated prescriptions,
18:58SPEAKERthey're gonna be able to do like astigmatisms
18:59SPEAKERand stuff like that, and it didn't get, of course,
19:01SPEAKERwave their hands right past that.
19:02SPEAKER- No, no, there's so many fringe cases,
19:03SPEAKERlike, I mean, like, this is a,
19:05SPEAKERI think VR, fundamentally, is gonna be the device
19:07SPEAKERthat excludes a lot of people, right?
19:08SPEAKERYou know, our friend Dan Ammerick,
19:10SPEAKERpeople like, who don't have stereo vision,
19:12SPEAKERwho, you know, they're not gonna be able to maximize this.
19:15SPEAKERThere's gonna be a certain amount of population
19:17SPEAKERfor the fit, it's not gonna be great,
19:19SPEAKERit's however much they can customize
19:23SPEAKERthe facial interface to your face.
19:25SPEAKERThe IPDs of people are so wide-ranging,
19:28SPEAKERand, you know, this is a motorized automatic adjustment IP,
19:32SPEAKERbut they didn't share that range either,
19:33SPEAKERbut, you know, it's a choice for every manufacturer
19:36SPEAKERthat makes a headset, like, there's,
19:38SPEAKERunless you're, even if you're big screen,
19:40SPEAKERmaking that big screen beyond,
19:41SPEAKERthey do a, like a actual customized, fabricated interface
19:46SPEAKERthat you, that is milled and conforms perfectly to your face,
19:51SPEAKERbut even then, their IPD is, you know,
19:53SPEAKERis a limited range because of the manufacturing limitations.
19:57SPEAKER- So, so, like, how, Norm, how does it feel?
20:03SPEAKER(Norm laughs)
20:04SPEAKER- Like, physically feel?
20:05SPEAKER- Yeah, did it feel heavy?
20:07SPEAKER- It's like, it's glass on the front,
20:09SPEAKERit's aluminum, it looks heavy.
20:11SPEAKER- Yeah, and I think I said this in my video,
20:13SPEAKERbut I'm coming to this maybe a little biased
20:14SPEAKERbecause with the Quest Pro,
20:17SPEAKERI'm used to the weight distribution being counterbalanced
20:20SPEAKERwith the battery in the back,
20:22SPEAKERI'm used to the pressure being on my forehead,
20:24SPEAKERso on the Quest Pro, no pressure on my cheeks
20:27SPEAKERand my forehead at all.
20:29SPEAKEROn the big screen beyond, which is my daily driver,
20:32SPEAKERnow the early DVT unit for PCVR,
20:37SPEAKERthat one has that gasket that's perfectly contoured,
20:41SPEAKERmade shape for my face,
20:43SPEAKERthat's their whole business model.
20:44SPEAKER- They literally scan your face
20:44SPEAKERand then print one that's custom.
20:45SPEAKER- They literally scan your face and they, exactly,
20:47SPEAKERthey make this, like, squishy silicone-like thing,
20:51SPEAKERand so that's so comfortable and super lightweight.
20:53SPEAKERBut that one also isn't a AR system, no cameras,
20:56SPEAKERit uses Steam tracking, that's super lightweight.
20:58SPEAKERSo, you know, putting this on, I was,
21:01SPEAKERmaybe the expectations were off
21:03SPEAKERjust because of what I'm used to,
21:05SPEAKERbut I don't think I was prepared for that glass
21:07SPEAKERto just weigh a little bit heavier than I expected.
21:10SPEAKERAnd the fit wasn't perfect for me,
21:12SPEAKERso it touched more my brow than my cheeks,
21:14SPEAKERand that space between the gasket and my cheeks
21:17SPEAKERjust meant that the headset drooped a little bit over time
21:20SPEAKERin that 30-minute demo.
21:21SPEAKER- That's, and so they, when you put on,
21:24SPEAKERwhen you got to the place where you're putting on the headset
21:26SPEAKERthey checked your glasses,
21:28SPEAKERthey scanned your face with an iPhone,
21:30SPEAKERthey scanned your ears
21:31SPEAKERto see what the spatial audio would work,
21:33SPEAKERand then they gave you a face gasket or face interface
21:36SPEAKERbased on the face scan?
21:38SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, they didn't make a new one,
21:40SPEAKERthey just, like, pulled the drawer open,
21:42SPEAKERand by the time I got to the room,
21:44SPEAKERthey had put the right one on the headset.
21:48SPEAKERBut then, even then, they had to,
21:50SPEAKERit wasn't perfect, they tried a different one,
21:51SPEAKERand the one they ended up with was okay,
21:54SPEAKERbut like I said, you know, it wasn't a perfect fit.
21:57SPEAKER- So, like, this whole process tells me
22:00SPEAKERthat they expect this to be a singular device
22:02SPEAKERthat you use for one person and isn't, like,
22:04SPEAKERa shared family device.
22:06SPEAKER- I'm sure you can, you know, you can scan people, right?
22:09SPEAKERIf they, obviously they want everyone
22:11SPEAKERto have one in their home eventually,
22:13SPEAKERit's not gonna be a practical thing,
22:14SPEAKERand people are gonna want to share,
22:16SPEAKERso I could imagine them having a new part
22:20SPEAKERof the App Store app on your iPhone
22:23SPEAKERwhere you can scan your own face and say, you know,
22:25SPEAKERif your family member, if your partner wants to use this,
22:28SPEAKERthey can scan their face and it'll give you a recommendation,
22:30SPEAKERbuy this gasket, and they'll sell you the gasket
22:32SPEAKERas an accessory, and then you can, you know,
22:35SPEAKERswap between users.
22:37SPEAKERThey didn't say anything about OS, though,
22:38SPEAKERwhether you'll have, you know, multi-users,
22:40SPEAKERlog out, log back in, it took a while for them to do that,
22:44SPEAKEReven for iOS devices, it took a while for meta to do that
22:47SPEAKERfor request devices, 'cause I don't think that's a priority
22:49SPEAKERfor people who sell devices, they want one,
22:52SPEAKEReach person to have their own, but multi-users, of course,
22:56SPEAKERwhat makes them, it's best for consumer.
22:58SPEAKER- And on the demo units, they had a,
23:00SPEAKERthey had the top strap that seems like an option
23:01SPEAKERthat can snap on as well, right?
23:04SPEAKER- Yep, yep, yeah.
23:05SPEAKER- So, okay, so then the reason the front is glass
23:09SPEAKERis 'cause they have a screen on the front that is,
23:11SPEAKERI think, the thing that people are kind of latching
23:13SPEAKERonto the most, where if you're watching something that,
23:18SPEAKERso describe the two modes, they have two modes
23:21SPEAKERthat they used to describe this,
23:22SPEAKERthey have the ambient and the immersive mode, right, though?
23:25SPEAKER- Yes, well, the default mode is just pass-through, right?
23:28SPEAKERIt's just spatial reality mode, where you,
23:31SPEAKERwhen you wear the headset, you get a UI
23:34SPEAKERthat's your home screen in front of you,
23:35SPEAKERbut by default, you will see the world around you,
23:38SPEAKERand the world is automatically mapped,
23:40SPEAKERso all the SLAM stuff is done in the background,
23:42SPEAKERyou're never drawing borders, drawing guardians,
23:45SPEAKERby the same token, they're not surfacing borders
23:47SPEAKERor guardians, so when I got close to a wall,
23:49SPEAKERit didn't have that holodeck wall appear and say,
23:52SPEAKER"You're getting too close!"
23:54SPEAKERLike, the demo person had to hold me back and say,
23:56SPEAKER"Whoa, you're getting too close to the wall here."
23:57SPEAKER- Oh, so they weren't showing any kind
23:59SPEAKERof chaperone-type system at all.
24:00SPEAKER- No, no, no chaperone, yeah. - Presumably that would be there.
24:03SPEAKER- You would hope so, or maybe they feel confident enough
24:06SPEAKERof their pass-through imagery, like the video,
24:09SPEAKERthat they would assume that you would see the thing
24:13SPEAKERthat you would bump into, but you gotta, you're right,
24:15SPEAKERyou gotta have the pass-through if you're gonna turn
24:17SPEAKERthe wall into a virtual space, if you're gonna look
24:19SPEAKERinto an infinite environment, you gotta have something like that.
24:21SPEAKER- I guess we'll get into screen quality in general
24:23SPEAKERas we get through this, but how did the feed
24:26SPEAKERof the room around you look?
24:27SPEAKERI mean, you know, they talked about
24:28SPEAKERthe pixel-based camera thing. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:29SPEAKER- Was it life-like, or?
24:32SPEAKER- Those are two different things we're talking about.
24:33SPEAKERI think some of the people are conflated, those.
24:35SPEAKERThe screen quality is extremely high resolution.
24:40SPEAKERI would say it's more than double what you'd find
24:45SPEAKERin the Quest Pro, and almost like 30 to 40% more
24:49SPEAKERthan even what's in the big screen beyond,
24:51SPEAKERwhich is already on the high end, right?
24:53SPEAKERThat's a 2560 by 2560 per eye display.
24:57SPEAKERThey didn't talk about resolution here,
24:59SPEAKERbut I think Palmer Lucky tweeted out that,
25:01SPEAKERbased on his information, that they're using
25:04SPEAKERwhat the big screen beyond folks have,
25:06SPEAKERbut the next generation of that,
25:08SPEAKERwhich speaks to Apple's access to the manufacturing pipelines.
25:15SPEAKERThe pass-through image quality, though,
25:18SPEAKERthere is not pixel-to-pixel accurate, right?
25:21SPEAKERSo they're not filling all 23 million pixels with,
25:25SPEAKERthey don't have that high resolution camera
25:27SPEAKERor the optics for that for the pass-through camera.
25:31SPEAKER- Oh, so they're taking lower resolution video
25:32SPEAKERthat's probably skewed because it's got weird lenses on it,
25:35SPEAKERand then perspective correcting that,
25:37SPEAKERso you see something that lines up one-to-one
25:39SPEAKERwith what you would if you were looking with your eyes?
25:42SPEAKER- Yeah, but it's not distorted,
25:43SPEAKERso there's no warbling or distorting,
25:47SPEAKERbut it is lower resolution than the rendered imagery
25:51SPEAKERthat you'd see.
25:54SPEAKER- So that-- - It's perspective correct,
25:55SPEAKERright, it's stereo, you get depth,
25:58SPEAKERleft and right eye look different.
26:00SPEAKERIt's clear enough that you can read what's on your phone.
26:03SPEAKERIt does enough exposure compensation,
26:05SPEAKERso phones aren't blown out.
26:08SPEAKERBut I think, I describe it as like lower end of HD,
26:11SPEAKERlike it's not like, when I say like 720,
26:14SPEAKERit's not 720 as if like the camera's a 720p,
26:17SPEAKERbut it's like the clarity of looking at a 720p image.
26:21SPEAKER- So did you try to pick something up
26:23SPEAKERthat you couldn't use, like if you're trying
26:27SPEAKERto grab your phone from your pocket,
26:28SPEAKERthat's using proprioception, 'cause you know
26:29SPEAKERwhere your pocket is, you know where the phone is.
26:31SPEAKERYou don't have to use your eyes.
26:32SPEAKERIf you had your phone on the table in front of you,
26:33SPEAKERwould you be able to grab it without feeling around,
26:35SPEAKERor would you have missed? - Easily, 100%, yeah.
26:38SPEAKERNo, the representation, the physical representation,
26:42SPEAKERlocation of everything is one-to-one, it's perfect.
26:45SPEAKER- It's interesting, 'cause to contrast this
26:47SPEAKERwith Magic Leap and HoloLens,
26:49SPEAKERwhich basically are projecting holograms, holographic images,
26:54SPEAKERstereoscopic images on the world around you
26:58SPEAKERin a relatively limited FOV, this,
27:00SPEAKERyou're getting a wider FOV, it seems like,
27:03SPEAKERbut a lower resolution of the world?
27:05SPEAKER- You get, there's more field of vision
27:07SPEAKERto place the projected objects, the holograms, for sure,
27:12SPEAKER'cause the HoloLens, but the trade-offs
27:16SPEAKERbetween optical passthrough and video passthrough
27:20SPEAKERis optical passthrough, well, the world is free.
27:23SPEAKERYou just get the world.
27:25SPEAKERYou get all the peripheral information in the world,
27:27SPEAKERwhich is why I think, going back to the Quest Pro,
27:29SPEAKERthat is video passthrough as well,
27:31SPEAKERbut because the lens doesn't,
27:33SPEAKERI don't use it with the full light blockers,
27:37SPEAKERI like seeing the extra periphery
27:40SPEAKERof the light around the world,
27:41SPEAKER'cause I think that actually helps my immersion,
27:43SPEAKERhelps the believability of the passthrough more,
27:47SPEAKERis it is perfectly aligned.
27:49SPEAKERI don't wanna feel, I don't wanna get that tunnel vision.
27:51SPEAKER- It also probably helps your motion sickness too, right?
27:53SPEAKER- Absolutely. - Yeah.
27:54SPEAKER- I feel less, yeah, 'cause there's zero latency
27:56SPEAKERwith photons in the world.
27:57SPEAKER- Yeah, and so, okay, so you control the amount of world
28:03SPEAKERyou see by twisting the watch knob, basically?
28:07SPEAKER- Yes, yeah, yeah, so the crown dial, digital crown,
28:10SPEAKERon the top right, is the home button,
28:15SPEAKERand you tap that any time the home menu pops up,
28:18SPEAKERyou can hold it down, which re-centers.
28:20SPEAKERI think too many people were focusing
28:22SPEAKERon what happens when you turn the dial,
28:25SPEAKERbecause that makes a lot more sense
28:27SPEAKERif VR was the primary use case,
28:30SPEAKERif I'm mostly immersed in digital environments
28:33SPEAKERand I wanted to see the passthrough, right?
28:37SPEAKER'Cause here, the default use case is passthrough
28:40SPEAKERby design, I'm not turning that dial all the time
28:44SPEAKERto then be enveloped in VR.
28:47SPEAKERIt's like, I wanna put the blinders on, on a regular basis.
28:51SPEAKERBut it is a thing when you load up environments
28:53SPEAKERfor the cinema mode, when you load up environments
28:55SPEAKERfor, and these are kind of like Apple watch face
28:59SPEAKERenvironments, where they are gonna curate,
29:01SPEAKERthey're gonna provide the volumetric environments.
29:04SPEAKERIt is my assumption. - So for the movie mode,
29:06SPEAKERthey showed a foundation or something,
29:08SPEAKERand you're like in a foundation, he kind of worlds it
29:10SPEAKERon a planet with some space around here.
29:12SPEAKER- You know, like they'll work with partners
29:14SPEAKERto create the certified volumetric environments.
29:18SPEAKERThis is where, you know, if you want to be immersed,
29:22SPEAKERyou can pull the curtains around,
29:25SPEAKERor you can retract the curtains and maybe have
29:27SPEAKERlike a half immersion and they'll vignette it
29:30SPEAKERand have that comfort of the passthrough.
29:32SPEAKERThey're really cognizant, I think,
29:33SPEAKERof not isolating people when they're wearing a headset,
29:37SPEAKERbecause over the years, as you and I have known well,
29:40SPEAKERlike it's such a solitary experience,
29:43SPEAKERit's a vulnerable experience when you're in a headset,
29:47SPEAKERand so they wanted to do everything to make people,
29:49SPEAKERor maybe many of them first time AR/VR users,
29:54SPEAKERto have the comfort of passthrough being the default,
29:58SPEAKERand by the same token, which is why they have
30:01SPEAKERthat display in the front as well.
30:03SPEAKER- It's interesting that they position this as,
30:06SPEAKERhey, this is a thing you can spend 10 hours a day in
30:10SPEAKERdoing your work, and then also relaxing,
30:12SPEAKERand at the same time, literally every VR developer I know,
30:17SPEAKERboth current and past, is like,
30:20SPEAKERyeah, eventually I just didn't ever
30:21SPEAKERwant to wear a headset again, right?
30:25SPEAKER- Well, I think they look at the pain points.
30:26SPEAKERIs the pain point, like, is it nausea?
30:28SPEAKERIs it discomfort because of resolution and latency?
30:31SPEAKER- It's the thing riding on your face for me, right?
30:34SPEAKER- That's all, they can't get around that.
30:35SPEAKERI don't think anyone's gonna be getting around that, right?
30:37SPEAKERYeah, but they're hoping that their screen quality
30:42SPEAKERis good enough, comfortable enough,
30:44SPEAKERand the latency is low enough at 12 milliseconds,
30:47SPEAKERwhich is like a third or a fourth of what
30:50SPEAKERthe other headsets go for, that it will just feel natural,
30:55SPEAKERand you can spend longer times in it, battery aside.
30:58SPEAKER- They didn't put, the 12 millisecond number
31:00SPEAKERwasn't in the video.
31:01SPEAKERI assume they told you that in the private talk,
31:04SPEAKERor did I just miss it?
31:05SPEAKER- They confirmed in the private talk,
31:06SPEAKERbut I think it was in their press release,
31:08SPEAKERor it was in one of the releases that went out,
31:10SPEAKERand it's, you know, motions of photons,
31:12SPEAKERand this is what the, when they were touting the R1 chip
31:14SPEAKERthat does all the image processing
31:16SPEAKERand the gesture tracking, like that,
31:18SPEAKERthat is what allowed us for that ultra, ultra low latency.
31:20SPEAKER- It's interesting that they gave a number,
31:22SPEAKER'cause like, they didn't give resolution numbers,
31:24SPEAKERthey didn't give numbers,
31:25SPEAKERthey didn't give very many numbers at all,
31:27SPEAKERand that one is such an important one,
31:29SPEAKERthat I think that, I assume that there had to be
31:31SPEAKERsome sort of internal fight that was like,
31:33SPEAKERyeah, we have to give this number 'cause it's important,
31:36SPEAKERand we spent a lot of time making that number low,
31:39SPEAKERwhich is important to the whole thing working.
31:41SPEAKER- I think you're right, I think you're right.
31:44SPEAKERAnd it's also a number they know no one can match.
31:46SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
31:48SPEAKER- Or can even get close to.
31:49SPEAKER- Okay, so the front glass, they show eyes,
31:51SPEAKERif you can see the world around you,
31:53SPEAKERand then they show some blurry nonsense if you can't.
31:56SPEAKER- So, yeah, so it's an OLED panel,
31:58SPEAKERand I think, again, there's a lot of confusion
31:59SPEAKERabout what it's actually showing.
32:01SPEAKEROne, it's, I think it probably adds
32:04SPEAKERto the weight a little bit, right?
32:06SPEAKERIt's another thing that they have to,
32:07SPEAKERthe power, it has to, right?
32:08SPEAKERAnd I don't think it's the reason they have glass.
32:11SPEAKERI think the glass is another one that was like,
32:12SPEAKERbecause we can, Apple, that we wanna make this
32:15SPEAKERlike a beautiful piece of glass in the front
32:17SPEAKERand protect our lenses and whatever.
32:20SPEAKERBut the OLED panel, I think the smart thing they did here,
32:25SPEAKERwhich is a very Apple thing, because Meadows tried this.
32:29SPEAKERLike, when I went last year to a matter of reality labs
32:32SPEAKERup in Seattle, yeah, Seattle area,
32:38SPEAKERthey showed me some of the prototypes
32:40SPEAKERthey had experimented with,
32:42SPEAKERone of which was reverse pass-through.
32:44SPEAKERThey had, in this prototype,
32:46SPEAKERwhich appears in the video I did last year,
32:48SPEAKERthere were two displays, one for each eye in the front,
32:52SPEAKERkind of like putting your googly eyes,
32:54SPEAKERthat people have done on their VR glasses.
32:56SPEAKERBut here, there were two small rectangular panels,
32:59SPEAKERand in the test they've shown,
33:00SPEAKERyou can actually find video of this online,
33:03SPEAKERyou have like these blinking eyeballs, right?
33:05SPEAKERAnd basically it'd be like a video recording
33:06SPEAKERof blinking eyeballs, that they would then correspond
33:09SPEAKERwith the eye tracking that they would have in the headset,
33:12SPEAKERjust to have some type of human connection.
33:15SPEAKERIt feels like they've abandoned that path
33:17SPEAKERbecause it was so like uncanny valley.
33:21SPEAKER- Well, it adds a ton of overhead to the headset, too.
33:24SPEAKER- Sure, sure, yeah, yeah.
33:25SPEAKERBut it's just, look, it didn't,
33:26SPEAKERprobably the weirdness of it worked against
33:30SPEAKERthe thing that was supposed to be its benefit,
33:32SPEAKERthe connection element, right?
33:33SPEAKERSo, but I think the smart thing that Apple's doing here
33:38SPEAKERis one, they're making it a lenticular screen,
33:41SPEAKERor they've put a lenticular filter in front of it,
33:44SPEAKERwhich means this effectively is
33:46SPEAKERa light field-like multi-view display.
33:50SPEAKER- Well, it can give the illusion of depth
33:52SPEAKERfor the people looking at it,
33:54SPEAKERdepending on the jungle you're looking at, right?
33:56SPEAKER- They do two things.
33:57SPEAKEROne, it's receded behind the glass,
33:59SPEAKERthe way it's presented, so it looks closely,
34:03SPEAKERclosely aligned to where your face would be,
34:06SPEAKERwhere your actual face and eyes would be.
34:08SPEAKERSo it's not like right on the surface of the glass.
34:11SPEAKERSo that's a benefit, right?
34:14SPEAKERTwo, because of the way they're using
34:17SPEAKERthat lenticular screen, my understanding of it is that
34:20SPEAKERthat means if someone's coming at you from the right side
34:22SPEAKERand someone's coming at you from the left side,
34:24SPEAKERthey see different parts of your face.
34:28SPEAKER- They see projections that are different
34:29SPEAKERthat look appropriate for the angles they're at.
34:31SPEAKER- So the way a multi-view display works,
34:35SPEAKERcompanies like Leia and Red, the Red phone did this,
34:41SPEAKERLooking Glass does this, is that they're,
34:44SPEAKERas opposed to rendering a single image,
34:47SPEAKERthey are processing a 3D model
34:49SPEAKERand slicing that 3D model into
34:53SPEAKERhowever many views that you want to make that lenticular,
34:56SPEAKERthe more views, the lower resolution per slice, right?
34:59SPEAKERSo at the most basic level,
35:00SPEAKERtwo slices means you get a stereo image
35:02SPEAKERand you can see 3D, it's a stereo image,
35:04SPEAKERbut you only can see it from one point of view.
35:06SPEAKERThat's 3D TV.
35:07SPEAKERIf you slice it into four, then you can get two 3D views,
35:10SPEAKERmaybe one from the left side and one from the right side,
35:12SPEAKERmaybe angular, like 60 degrees apart or something.
35:16SPEAKERAnd then if you, and there's a nice limit,
35:18SPEAKERthere's a sweet spot where you can have,
35:20SPEAKERand they never say, you don't know,
35:22SPEAKERbut maybe 64 different views or something,
35:25SPEAKERwhich means that from 64 individual different positions,
35:29SPEAKERcoming out, looking at the screen,
35:31SPEAKERyou would see a different perspective,
35:32SPEAKERwhich then gives you the illusion
35:34SPEAKERof some three-dimensional object there.
35:37SPEAKERSo I think that's what they're doing,
35:38SPEAKERwhich then makes that representation of your eyes
35:43SPEAKERthrough the front of Apple Glass
35:45SPEAKERfeel more like it's actually your face.
35:47SPEAKER- Did you see this working? - It's not video.
35:49SPEAKERNo, they never showed this working.
35:50SPEAKERIt was only in video.
35:51SPEAKERI don't think it's, I don't think it's ready yet.
35:53SPEAKER- Did, and they said it's three, it is three.
35:55SPEAKERSo that was my question is,
35:56SPEAKERare they using the eye tracking cameras
35:58SPEAKERto actually project like, okay.
36:01SPEAKER- They are using eye tracking cameras
36:03SPEAKERto then graph that motion data onto your avatar,
36:07SPEAKERyour persona avatar.
36:09SPEAKER- Presumably it's created in the face scan
36:11SPEAKERand all that process.
36:12SPEAKER- Actually, do we assume that the, excuse me,
36:15SPEAKERthe image people are seeing externally to the headset
36:17SPEAKERon the front screen is the same one
36:19SPEAKERthat they're also gonna present in FaceTime to people?
36:21SPEAKER- Yes, that is, that is, I think it has to be that
36:24SPEAKERbecause you can't do multi views with one,
36:26SPEAKERyou're not illuminating your eyes.
36:28SPEAKERThere's no bright light.
36:30SPEAKERI mean, I guess.
36:31SPEAKER- There's infrared light inside, yeah.
36:32SPEAKER- There's infrared and I guess there's the light
36:34SPEAKERof the panel, right?
36:35SPEAKERBut it's not like they're capturing five different views
36:38SPEAKERof your eyeballs and your face
36:40SPEAKERand you're wearing a gasket, like it's tightly fit in.
36:42SPEAKERWhat, and what they're showing isn't like you
36:46SPEAKERwith like stretched eyes and a gasket.
36:48SPEAKERIt's a render, it's a render.
36:49SPEAKER- They just take the circle around your eyeball
36:51SPEAKERand then they use the machine learning to extend it out
36:53SPEAKERlike you do the Mona Lisa to find out
36:54SPEAKERwhat's on the rest of the Mona Lisa.
36:56SPEAKER- Why do that when you can just do the machine learning
36:58SPEAKERahead of time to generate an avatar and have the avatar?
37:01SPEAKERAnd that's why the lenticular works to its advantage
37:03SPEAKER'cause then the lenticular aspect lowers the resolution,
37:06SPEAKERright, adds like a little bit of fuzziness to the clarity,
37:10SPEAKERwhich means that you don't approach
37:14SPEAKERthe uncanny valley as much.
37:16SPEAKER- Yeah, I am, I'm really disappointed that nobody,
37:19SPEAKERthat they didn't show this to people in person
37:21SPEAKERbecause like of the things, like it is a classic,
37:27SPEAKERthis is not gonna look right on video at all kind of idea
37:32SPEAKERand they must think it's gonna be good
37:34SPEAKERor else they wouldn't devote this much like space
37:37SPEAKERand cost to it.
37:38SPEAKERAlthough in a world where there's a vision non-pro,
37:44SPEAKERlike that's the first thing that goes.
37:46SPEAKER- I think it's a fundamental part, I mean, yeah,
37:47SPEAKERI think theoretically, yes.
37:49SPEAKERI think it's, you're right, they must think it's good.
37:54SPEAKERTwo, they must think it's important and essential.
37:58SPEAKERAnd three, they must have confidence
38:00SPEAKERthey can get it right eventually.
38:02SPEAKERAll things that, like Siri, perfect example, right?
38:05SPEAKERLike they must've thought it was good, essential,
38:08SPEAKERand important, and they got like one of those things right
38:10SPEAKERat launch.
38:13SPEAKER- The thing I kept thinking as I was watching this
38:15SPEAKERis Apple doesn't do things on whims, right?
38:19SPEAKERThese are all, like this is a very carefully calculated,
38:23SPEAKERreally intentionally constructed presentation
38:26SPEAKERof all the way down to showing the dad
38:31SPEAKERshooting the video of his kid's birthday
38:33SPEAKERwith the glasses on and being the least possible,
38:38SPEAKERleast present possible version of present that you could be.
38:42SPEAKERLike all of that is intentional.
38:43SPEAKER- There were several black mirror moments in this thing,
38:46SPEAKERbut that one was absolutely the standout.
38:48SPEAKER- This is the one, yes, that made through 100 no's.
38:52SPEAKERAnd even at that point, Apple is famous for killing things
38:56SPEAKERif the optics could be bad on it and it's made it through.
39:00SPEAKERSo I think they have confidence in it.
39:02SPEAKERSo I agree that I'm surprised they didn't show it.
39:04SPEAKER- I think the takeaway has to be the 3D nature of the,
39:13SPEAKERwell, we'll talk about that stuff in a minute
39:14SPEAKERwhen we get to demos, but okay.
39:16SPEAKERSo they showed a bunch of different modes
39:18SPEAKERof people using this thing.
39:19SPEAKERThey showed gestures alone,
39:20SPEAKERwhich I'd want to spend some time talking about
39:22SPEAKER'cause it sounded pretty cool from what you said
39:24SPEAKERand what everyone else got into too.
39:26SPEAKERThey showed somebody using a MacBook interfacing
39:30SPEAKERwith the remote desktop on the MacBook
39:32SPEAKERusing a Bluetooth keyboard and Magic Trackpad.
39:36SPEAKERAnd then they showed a game pad, I think at some point.
39:40SPEAKERAnd then that was it.
39:42SPEAKERThere's no hand controllers for this.
39:45SPEAKERThe controllers are your hands.
39:47SPEAKER- The controllers are your hands, eyes, and voice.
39:49SPEAKERThey explicitly are designing.
39:51SPEAKERAnd then Bluetooth accessories,
39:53SPEAKERthey'll be made for Vision OS, I'm sure, right?
39:56SPEAKERAnd I don't know if motion controllers
39:58SPEAKERare gonna cross that bar
40:00SPEAKER'cause it feels like this is a very anti-motion controller.
40:03SPEAKERThey are very confident in the power.
40:07SPEAKERAnd I don't think it's a cost cutting measure
40:09SPEAKER'cause I think it's an expensive thing for them to R&D.
40:11SPEAKERBut I think they really have a fundamental belief
40:15SPEAKERthat not holding a controller is the only way
40:18SPEAKERthis is gonna be usable everywhere.
40:21SPEAKER- Same philosophy as like multi-touch, right?
40:23SPEAKERWe think this is the way that people
40:24SPEAKERare most naturally going to relate to this thing.
40:27SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
40:28SPEAKER- Yeah, I mean, it literally seems like Steve Jobs
40:31SPEAKERsaying multi-touch is better than a hardware keyboard.
40:33SPEAKER- Well, and you know what?
40:34SPEAKERMulti-touch ended up working great,
40:36SPEAKERbut because they issued physical game pads,
40:41SPEAKERlike games on iPad still suck.
40:44SPEAKER- Yeah.
40:45SPEAKER- I mean, the traditional two-stick model
40:46SPEAKERstill doesn't work, right?
40:49SPEAKERNo one has solved that yet.
40:50SPEAKERAnd it could be the case that no one will be able
40:53SPEAKERto ever solve, like, how do you hold a virtual blaster
40:57SPEAKERor a pistol without a physical motion controller?
41:01SPEAKERLike, we don't know.
41:02SPEAKER- I, like, I don't, does Beat, I mean,
41:04SPEAKERobviously there's not gonna be a Beat Saber for this
41:06SPEAKER'cause Facebook's not gonna make Beat Saber
41:07SPEAKERfor an Apple device.
41:09SPEAKERBut, like, I don't know, like, how did you,
41:12SPEAKERwhat was your sense of latency and, like, fidelity and stuff?
41:15SPEAKERCould you have played Beat Saber
41:16SPEAKERjust with your hands on this?
41:19SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, easily.
41:20SPEAKER- Okay.
41:21SPEAKER- Yes, I think if you use, like, Fruit Ninja with hands
41:24SPEAKERwould have been no problem.
41:25SPEAKER- Okay.
41:26SPEAKER- A big question is, like, finger guns,
41:28SPEAKERI think finger guns, no problem.
41:29SPEAKERAnd maybe, like, so this goes to gestures, right?
41:32SPEAKERThis goes to why they so strongly invested
41:35SPEAKERand believe in gestures.
41:37SPEAKERAnd it's because the way they're implementing gestures
41:40SPEAKERwith the additional context clue of eye tracking,
41:43SPEAKERI think the gaze tracking is their secret sauce here.
41:46SPEAKER- Yeah, so can we talk about that some?
41:47SPEAKER'Cause, like, your description,
41:51SPEAKERMKBHD and you, and I watched a bunch of videos this morning,
41:54SPEAKERthe, I literally have not heard jaded tech press
41:59SPEAKERtalk so enthusiastically
42:00SPEAKERabout pre-release Apple technology
42:03SPEAKERas, like, everyone was really positive about this.
42:07SPEAKERAnd everybody also described it as magic
42:09SPEAKERwhile saying, hey, it's not magic,
42:12SPEAKERbut also this feels really good.
42:15SPEAKER- I don't think I used the word magical,
42:17SPEAKERbut that is explicitly, automagical is explicitly
42:21SPEAKERthe language that they would describe it, Apple.
42:25SPEAKERAnd I think that was probably relayed to everyone
42:27SPEAKERwho got a briefing.
42:28SPEAKER- Seated the words.
42:30SPEAKER- And so I'm sure the word, that was a seeded word
42:34SPEAKERin the mind of, I mean, I love MKBHD's overview.
42:38SPEAKERI thought he did an amazing job
42:41SPEAKERwith describing the experience and the hardware.
42:45SPEAKERBut the way, so I'll give you a little bit of a,
42:48SPEAKERagain, comparison of the alternative, right?
42:51SPEAKEROculus Quest, MetaQuest Pro, they have hand tracking.
42:55SPEAKERIt's a big deal, right?
42:56SPEAKERHand tracking has worked really well.
42:57SPEAKERThey've improved it over time.
42:59SPEAKERIt aligns perfectly with their hands.
43:02SPEAKERAnd a lot of that interaction that they've designed
43:04SPEAKERwith the hand tracking works
43:06SPEAKERwith how they've implemented it,
43:07SPEAKERwhich is primarily taps for gestures,
43:09SPEAKERholding, so these analogs, the clicking, right?
43:12SPEAKERSo you have, you can, it knows the orientation of your hand.
43:15SPEAKERIt knows whether you've pressed them together to tap.
43:18SPEAKERAnd then for highlighting and selecting items,
43:21SPEAKERthere are actually two ways to do it now
43:22SPEAKERin the meta, whatever OS, their interface.
43:29SPEAKER- Zuck OS, I think is what they call it.
43:31SPEAKERIt's a, there's ray casting.
43:33SPEAKERSo you imagine a laser beam that's being, you know,
43:37SPEAKERtransmitted from like your wrist.
43:38SPEAKERSo you use like, you know, from your elbow to your wrist,
43:41SPEAKERa line being projected out and your laser beaming,
43:44SPEAKERhighlighting an icon and then getting a gesture
43:46SPEAKERand selecting it.
43:48SPEAKEROr there is actually in the latest versions of the OS,
43:52SPEAKERyou can actually have like the simulation
43:54SPEAKERof virtual tap surfaces.
43:57SPEAKERSo you can bring a keyboard up to you,
43:59SPEAKERbring an interface up to you,
44:00SPEAKERand then put your finger through it.
44:02SPEAKERAnd then it would activate.
44:04SPEAKERYou don't get real haptics that way,
44:06SPEAKERbut your brain sometimes can feel like, you know,
44:08SPEAKERyou're hitting it, your brain gets confused enough.
44:10SPEAKERIt's actually really cool.
44:12SPEAKERAnd those are effective to some extent,
44:14SPEAKERbut I think Apple probably tried all that stuff
44:18SPEAKERand they probably realized that that type of using
44:22SPEAKERthat gestures is, can be fatiguing.
44:25SPEAKERIt's like, no one wants to, you know,
44:27SPEAKERthe minority report using, you know,
44:29SPEAKERair moving your fingers and hands around.
44:31SPEAKERIt's great for show, right?
44:33SPEAKERDr. Strange hands, but like people are lazy motherfuckers.
44:38SPEAKERLike, you know, locomotion.
44:40SPEAKERIt's the same problem that, you know,
44:41SPEAKERValve had with room scale, right?
44:42SPEAKERIt's so cool as a thing.
44:44SPEAKERThe first time you walk around a physical space
44:46SPEAKERand are ducking under things, but you know what?
44:48SPEAKERThese guys playing rec room or playing onward or Pavlov,
44:53SPEAKERthey're just laying down, sitting down most of the time
44:56SPEAKERand holding controllers and like just using thumbsticks
44:59SPEAKERto move around and then moving their head, right?
45:01SPEAKERLike there's some parts of locomotion and physical movement
45:04SPEAKERand motion control that's fun.
45:06SPEAKERAnd some part that when you're activating UI,
45:10SPEAKERyou just want it to be like instantaneous
45:12SPEAKERand not fatiguing.
45:13SPEAKER- Well, and you want it to be without thought.
45:15SPEAKERYou don't need to like, like it's, I mean, this,
45:17SPEAKERthis whole getting over this motion hump is the,
45:20SPEAKERis the big challenge for VR, like for goggles in general.
45:24SPEAKERCause like, it's why instead of playing Diablo four
45:26SPEAKERor Zelda on the Switch or Steam Deck or whatever,
45:29SPEAKERI sit and play a match three on my phone.
45:31SPEAKERIt's cause the phone's right there
45:32SPEAKERand it's like two taps away versus having to go get up
45:35SPEAKERand get the other thing and turn it on
45:36SPEAKERand wait for it to boot and fire up the thing.
45:39SPEAKERLike, like inertia is real and it makes a huge difference.
45:43SPEAKER- And I'll go one further with like the mouse, right?
45:46SPEAKERThe mouse is effectively a motion controller,
45:48SPEAKERbut the mouse takes advantage of the most
45:51SPEAKERlike dexterous part of the human body,
45:53SPEAKERyour fingers and your wrist and grafts and,
45:56SPEAKERand basically translates a small amount of movement
45:59SPEAKERinto a big amount of movement and our bodies can do that.
46:02SPEAKERAnd it's not fatiguing,
46:03SPEAKERbut still it can be fatiguing over time, right?
46:05SPEAKERAnd that, but it's why we have small gestures
46:07SPEAKERwith the mouse and not big gestures,
46:08SPEAKERone-to-one relationships between the cursor and the screen.
46:12SPEAKERSo what meta or what, sorry,
46:14SPEAKERwhat Apple did is they have a multimodal approach.
46:17SPEAKERThey're combining eye tracking, gaze tracking
46:22SPEAKERand making that at launch gaze tracking with gestures
46:25SPEAKERat the start, they work together fundamentally
46:29SPEAKERfor interacting with the interface.
46:30SPEAKERAnd which is not something that anyone else has done,
46:34SPEAKERwhich doesn't say that like meta couldn't implement
46:37SPEAKERgaze tracking plus gestures in their UI.
46:41SPEAKERBut at this point they'd be doing a lot of catch up
46:43SPEAKERbecause it's not as simple as where your eyes are looking,
46:47SPEAKERhighlight and then tap what Apple is doing
46:50SPEAKERbehind the backgrounds
46:51SPEAKERand what some of the developers
46:52SPEAKERwho maybe have left Apple sense work on this
46:54SPEAKERhave now since shared is that they're doing
46:55SPEAKERa lot of machine learning,
46:58SPEAKERconstantly analyzing where your eyes are looking at
47:01SPEAKERand then doing prediction for intent
47:05SPEAKERfor where you're looking at.
47:07SPEAKER- So it's like when the keyboard substitutes ducking
47:09SPEAKERfor fucking for ducking every time I try to,
47:12SPEAKERlike they're getting my intent exactly right.
47:15SPEAKER- If you're in the photos app
47:16SPEAKERand you're looking at a certain photo,
47:18SPEAKERif you looked at a certain photo for amount of time,
47:20SPEAKERyou can, maybe the system can apply,
47:22SPEAKERmaybe you're ready to scan to a different photo
47:24SPEAKERor your next step most likely is gonna be here
47:27SPEAKERand prime the system for your eyes to,
47:30SPEAKERand maybe so it's, again, I'm not sure this is the case,
47:33SPEAKERbut maybe it's dynamically sized hit boxes
47:37SPEAKERbased on where the prediction systems are
47:40SPEAKERwith the sole purpose of making it feel
47:43SPEAKERas fast and intuitive as possible.
47:46SPEAKER- So, okay.
47:47SPEAKER- That's where the magic is.
47:48SPEAKERWhen they say magical, that's where I think it is happening
47:52SPEAKERbecause it was so responsive.
47:54SPEAKERLike nowhere did I have to delay my intent
47:59SPEAKERbetween looking at, 'cause your eyes move quickly.
48:01SPEAKERYour eyes are like, like think of that,
48:03SPEAKERyour eyes move so much faster than your wrist does
48:07SPEAKERin terms of moving a cursor.
48:08SPEAKERYou're darting across your entire field of vision,
48:12SPEAKERmilliseconds, sub-milliseconds, constantly.
48:15SPEAKER- Well, yeah, and you don't even realize it is the thing.
48:17SPEAKERThey're constantly moving, the saccades.
48:23SPEAKERTwo thoughts.
48:24SPEAKEROne is this seems like a really nice technology
48:26SPEAKERfor accessibility, for people who have limited mobility.
48:32SPEAKERIs it, 'cause like I've used eye trackers,
48:34SPEAKERI've used assistive, I've tested out assistive eye trackers
48:37SPEAKERbefore we've, you know, I have a Tobii eye tracker
48:39SPEAKERon my monitor right now, and there's a level of fiddliness
48:43SPEAKERwith those that requires your head to be in a specific place
48:46SPEAKERand like it doesn't handle saccades always very well.
48:49SPEAKERIf you get to the edges of the display,
48:51SPEAKERthe fidelity of it gets jankier.
48:54SPEAKERDid you notice any kind of that, that kind of stuff?
48:56SPEAKERLike it wasn't jittery.
48:58SPEAKERIt was filtering out the saccades, all that stuff.
49:01SPEAKER- I think, yeah, and there's no cursor.
49:04SPEAKERThere is no floating, like--
49:07SPEAKER- Oh.
49:08SPEAKER- There's no floating indicator of what you're looking at.
49:11SPEAKER- Did it indicate focus?
49:11SPEAKERLike when you looked at a picture?
49:12SPEAKER- It does, occasionally, yep, so we do that.
49:14SPEAKER- Kind of makes it bigger or something?
49:16SPEAKER- Yeah, so like, you know, you highlight over a menu icon,
49:20SPEAKERyes, there will be a little animation, but there's no,
49:23SPEAKERlike even if you use, you know, a mouse on a iPad, right,
49:27SPEAKERthere's gonna be a bubble that moves around,
49:29SPEAKERthere's none of that virtual cursor, it's instantaneous.
49:32SPEAKERAnd I think that speaks to some of the trickery
49:35SPEAKERthey're doing to, you know, magnetically attach,
49:39SPEAKERlike, you know, to move your targets
49:43SPEAKERahead of where you're looking or to lock them in.
49:46SPEAKERYou can imagine them doing this on desktop OS, right?
49:50SPEAKERYou can totally imagine, like, if they had machine trained
49:54SPEAKERyour mouse cursor so that as fast as you're moving,
49:58SPEAKERit would lock on to certain things in the UI
50:01SPEAKERbased on where it would think you're moving.
50:02SPEAKERAnd obviously, I don't think that really would work
50:04SPEAKERbecause I think we want the mouse cursor
50:06SPEAKERto really be one-to-one, but because of the erraticness
50:09SPEAKERof your eye movement, I think they kind of have to do that,
50:11SPEAKERand I think it works to their advantage
50:13SPEAKERto making it feel like it's reading your mind.
50:16SPEAKER- How did you handle things like scrolling
50:18SPEAKERand gestures that require two axes of movement?
50:22SPEAKER- Pinch and drag, so pinch and drag,
50:24SPEAKERand so the benefit-- - Like little movements
50:26SPEAKERor big movements? - Yeah, little movements.
50:28SPEAKER- You weren't waving your hand like Monari Report,
50:29SPEAKERso are you just sitting with your hand in your lap?
50:30SPEAKER- I think you could, and I think, again,
50:32SPEAKERthis is ties to where Apple excels
50:34SPEAKERin the smoothness of their interface.
50:36SPEAKERLike, you know, like in the iPads,
50:37SPEAKERyou could do big scrolls or small scrolls,
50:39SPEAKERbut it's kind of like, it's like pulling a string, right?
50:41SPEAKERLike, they have the stretchiness of that scroll.
50:45SPEAKERIt's gonna ramp up in a smooth way.
50:48SPEAKERBut I think small, it's all about small movements.
50:50SPEAKERLike, the way I'm resting my hands now
50:52SPEAKERis exactly the way I was resting my hands.
50:54SPEAKERHands crossed, one hand like on my legs, on my knee,
50:57SPEAKERand just tapping and gazing and tapping
51:00SPEAKERand doing small swipes left and right,
51:02SPEAKERand that was enough to navigate the entire UI.
51:04SPEAKER- Since it's an audio podcast,
51:05SPEAKERI'm gonna say that Norm was moving his hands
51:07SPEAKERless than he would have if he was moving a mouse,
51:09SPEAKERI would think. - That's right, yeah, yeah.
51:11SPEAKER- Did you get any false positives
51:13SPEAKERor did it fail to read a gesture at any point?
51:15SPEAKERLike, how accurate?
51:16SPEAKER- Yeah, it did fail to read a gesture occasionally
51:19SPEAKERwith, I think, occlusion.
51:21SPEAKERI was worried that it would lose tracking,
51:23SPEAKERlike, above your head 'cause there are no cameras,
51:25SPEAKERbut even, like, you know, at head level, it was fine.
51:30SPEAKERIt didn't detect when I put it behind my head, obviously,
51:34SPEAKERbut I think they don't want people's hands
51:35SPEAKERto be up above their heads and behind their heads.
51:37SPEAKERThey don't want big movements.
51:38SPEAKERThey want small movements. - It's a young person's
51:39SPEAKERproblem, Norm, most of us, once you get a certain age,
51:41SPEAKERthey don't go back there anymore.
51:42SPEAKER- I'm very sedentary, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.
51:46SPEAKERAnd they think it's, I think they think it's something
51:48SPEAKERthat will improve over time, also,
51:50SPEAKERthat they can just train and improve.
51:51SPEAKER- So, how, they, and you're,
51:56SPEAKERwhen you're looking at your hands and pass through,
51:58SPEAKERyou're seeing a 3D representation of your hands?
52:00SPEAKERAre you seeing ghost hands?
52:02SPEAKER- You're seeing probably a reprojection.
52:05SPEAKERSo, I think there's a 3D model that they have.
52:07SPEAKERThey don't show the 3D model,
52:08SPEAKERbut then they graph the video, wrap around it,
52:10SPEAKER'cause I do see some of the edges.
52:12SPEAKERSo, that's to say that there's occlusion.
52:13SPEAKERYour hands, when you put your hands over icons,
52:17SPEAKERwhen you see yourself in the full VR/immersive environments,
52:22SPEAKERyou do still see your hands and arms.
52:24SPEAKERThey are separating your hands based on the,
52:27SPEAKERprobably the depth sensor, as well as the camera vision,
52:31SPEAKERand then remodeling that in real time,
52:36SPEAKERso that they know your hands are the things in front of you.
52:38SPEAKERAnd your field is always there.
52:40SPEAKER- But are they showing a scan of your hands,
52:44SPEAKERor are they showing--
52:46SPEAKER- They're showing a video.
52:47SPEAKER- They're showing a video, okay, okay.
52:48SPEAKER- Yeah, it's a video.
52:49SPEAKERYeah, it's not the personas.
52:50SPEAKERIt's not like wrapped, textured.
52:53SPEAKERIt's a video.
52:54SPEAKER- Okay, hands are hard for machine learning,
52:55SPEAKERit turns out, too, so who knew?
52:57SPEAKER- What is the nature of the immersive environments?
52:59SPEAKERLike, they used the term captured
53:00SPEAKERwhen they talked about them,
53:01SPEAKERbut I mean, I assume they're 3D rendered,
53:03SPEAKERbut I mean, is it just their photogrammetry or something?
53:05SPEAKERLike, they're not--
53:06SPEAKER- I think it's photogrammetry.
53:07SPEAKERI think so, yeah.
53:08SPEAKER- Okay, they're not 3D video.
53:09SPEAKER- No, no, no, it's not stereo video.
53:12SPEAKERAnd I think some people are gonna get confused,
53:14SPEAKER'cause there were, they did show 3D video,
53:17SPEAKERand they've built custom 3D stereo rigs
53:20SPEAKERto film kind of like your Felix and Paul,
53:23SPEAKERlike high quality, you know, like 8K video.
53:27SPEAKERSo they had a reel of that, kind of again, selling like,
53:30SPEAKERthis is the immersive level video stuff,
53:32SPEAKERand this felt very meta, like from a couple years ago,
53:34SPEAKERpushing like, this is the kind of video content
53:36SPEAKERyou could see Alicia Keys playing a concert just for you.
53:40SPEAKERLike, yeah, we've seen all this stuff.
53:41SPEAKER- Nobody wants video content, man.
53:43SPEAKERYou don't.
53:44SPEAKER- And the quality's good, right?
53:45SPEAKERThe stereo's great, and some people will be wowed by it.
53:49SPEAKERBut the rendered environments felt like,
53:51SPEAKERyou know, what Valve was doing back in 2016 with--
53:58SPEAKER- Their Steam home stuff and all that?
53:59SPEAKER- Yeah, the Steam, exactly, the Steam home stuff,
54:01SPEAKERwhich is like photogrammetry mixed with some geometry,
54:03SPEAKERtexture geometry.
54:04SPEAKER- Yeah, the question I have is if like,
54:10SPEAKERif you're gonna take over somebody's sensorium
54:12SPEAKERto make them watch a video, if you pick up your phone,
54:14SPEAKERcan you see your phone in your hand
54:16SPEAKERwhen you have your phone in your hand?
54:18SPEAKER- That's a really good question.
54:19SPEAKERI did not do that.
54:21SPEAKERI did not interact with objects
54:23SPEAKERwhile in the immersive VR environments.
54:26SPEAKERI suspect it would not pass through,
54:30SPEAKERthat you would just be looking,
54:31SPEAKERit would confuse the, yeah.
54:34SPEAKER- But if somebody walks into your space
54:37SPEAKERwhen you're in one of those environments,
54:38SPEAKERthey'll pop into your space, right?
54:39SPEAKER- They will, they will.
54:40SPEAKERAnd that's because it recognizes
54:42SPEAKERthat they're using machine learning.
54:44SPEAKERSo maybe they'll do some machine learning
54:45SPEAKERfor the hand and the airfield stuff, too.
54:47SPEAKER- But only for their products.
54:48SPEAKER(laughing)
54:49SPEAKER- Right, right.
54:50SPEAKERYou pick up the Android phone, it's a garbled mess,
54:51SPEAKERit's black mirror, it's blacked out, right?
54:53SPEAKERA black box.
54:54SPEAKER- Surface tablet just has a big poo emoji on it.
54:56SPEAKER- Yeah, you pick up the Android tablet,
54:58SPEAKERit's an Apple store, address to the nearest Apple store.
55:00SPEAKER- Yeah.
55:02SPEAKEROkay, so gestures, on-screen keyboard,
55:06SPEAKERdid you get to use an on-screen keyboard?
55:07SPEAKER- Nope, no, and it's the same thing
55:09SPEAKERwhere I didn't get to use virtual desktop
55:11SPEAKERor on-screen keyboard.
55:13SPEAKERI think either that stuff wasn't ready
55:17SPEAKERor that they were afraid that it would distract
55:20SPEAKERfrom how awesome just the gesture interface was.
55:25SPEAKERI think they wanted all the takeaways to be,
55:27SPEAKERthis is auto-magical, the gesture stuff.
55:29SPEAKERThey're not going to show you anything that is not,
55:31SPEAKERlike in this early context,
55:33SPEAKERsix plus months before they start selling them,
55:36SPEAKERthey're only going to show you stuff
55:37SPEAKERthat is going to leave you super.
55:41SPEAKERThey had to have looked at the Vive demo
55:43SPEAKERthat Valve did in 2015 at GDC
55:46SPEAKERand be thinking, that's the experience
55:49SPEAKERthey're trying to mimic.
55:50SPEAKERBecause I think that remains in my head
55:53SPEAKERthe god-tier VR demo of all the stuff that we saw
55:56SPEAKERprior to launch that was like,
55:58SPEAKERthis is the one that changed the way I thought about this.
56:00SPEAKER- It was something truly different, right?
56:02SPEAKERAnd it was perfect motion tracking,
56:05SPEAKERsix degrees motion tracking, full body.
56:08SPEAKERAnd here I think it's the gesture
56:09SPEAKERand the clarity of the screen.
56:11SPEAKER- So, okay, did you use the knob
56:14SPEAKERfor anything other than hitting home button
56:16SPEAKERand scrolling in and out of the different interfaces?
56:19SPEAKER- I didn't, I'm not sure if that can be customized.
56:23SPEAKERI don't see why not, because I don't think
56:26SPEAKERit's going to be context dependent, right?
56:29SPEAKERThere's not going to be fading in
56:30SPEAKERin a virtual environment at all times.
56:34SPEAKERSo it wasn't for volume control for apps.
56:38SPEAKERI tried to use it for volume control
56:39SPEAKERand then I used a slider bar for that.
56:43SPEAKERAnd then there's only one other button on the top of it,
56:45SPEAKERwhich is to capture immersive video/photos,
56:50SPEAKERstereo video from photos.
56:51SPEAKER- And they didn't let you do that either, right?
56:53SPEAKER- They let me capture anything,
56:54SPEAKERso I just got to view some pre-generated memories.
56:57SPEAKER- Oh, did you feel it?
56:58SPEAKERDid you feel deeply connected to those moments?
57:01SPEAKER- Yeah, I felt like I was, you know,
57:03SPEAKERI was the chosen one, Blade Runner 2049.
57:06SPEAKER- Yeah, I was going to say, it's like there's real,
57:08SPEAKERlike your secret computer girlfriend
57:10SPEAKERlives inside that button, Norm.
57:15SPEAKERSo they didn't, the keyboard and trackpad stuff,
57:16SPEAKERit seemed like that was tied to the Mac experience, right?
57:20SPEAKERLike you probably aren't using a physical keyboard
57:22SPEAKERand trackpad to interface with this thing.
57:24SPEAKER- I'm sure you could.
57:25SPEAKERI don't think there's any reason
57:26SPEAKERwhy you wouldn't be able to have,
57:28SPEAKERif that's easiest thing for you
57:30SPEAKERand you wanted to use the built-in headset Safari browser
57:33SPEAKERall the time, 'cause this doesn't require a iPad,
57:38SPEAKERdoesn't require a MacBook.
57:39SPEAKERLike you're supposed to be able to do all these,
57:42SPEAKERyou know, the Vision OS applications,
57:44SPEAKERincluding Safari in headset,
57:46SPEAKERand they have to let people use physical keyboards.
57:51SPEAKERI don't think those physical keyboards are gonna be like,
57:54SPEAKER'cause they believe in the pass-through,
57:56SPEAKERthe video pass-through so strongly,
57:57SPEAKERI don't think they're gonna have
57:58SPEAKERlike a digitally tracked version, like Meta does.
58:02SPEAKER- Yeah, they'll just let you see it
58:03SPEAKERand put your hands on it, it just works.
58:04SPEAKER- Exactly, exactly.
58:07SPEAKER- What about, let's see,
58:09SPEAKERyou didn't do any gamepad stuff, I'm assuming, 'cause Apple.
58:12SPEAKER- No, yeah, yeah.
58:14SPEAKER- Did you, you did,
58:15SPEAKERso can we talk about the actual demos, I guess, then?
58:17SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.
58:18SPEAKER- So the photos thing, they started with photos?
58:20SPEAKER- Yep, started with photos.
58:24SPEAKERA grid of photos, you know, with some dynamic grid,
58:28SPEAKERsome larger than others.
58:30SPEAKERPulled it up, and if these were photos
58:32SPEAKERtaken with an iPhone, they looked amazing.
58:34SPEAKERLike, it wasn't like, I've done so many VR, UI demos,
58:40SPEAKERlike VR photo albums or air photos,
58:42SPEAKERwhere the photos look good in thumbnail form,
58:44SPEAKERbut once they scale up, you can tell
58:47SPEAKERthere's not enough, like, filtering on these.
58:51SPEAKERLike, there's not enough memory bandwidth
58:53SPEAKERto put the full resolution up on full screen,
58:56SPEAKERand here, it was the full resolution.
58:59SPEAKER- This is the benefit of putting
59:00SPEAKERa real processor in this thing, right?
59:02SPEAKER- And real memory, yeah, real memory bandwidth, yep, yeah.
59:05SPEAKER- I wonder, also, if the contrast
59:07SPEAKERbetween the low-res real world
59:10SPEAKERand the high-res digital asset benefits here.
59:13SPEAKERIt makes it pop out more from the background.
59:14SPEAKERIt's like everything gets FOV'd out, or depth of field out
59:18SPEAKERin the real world, and your digital memory
59:20SPEAKERseems somehow better and more real than the real world.
59:23SPEAKER- No, I mean, I take a ton of photos.
59:26SPEAKERI'm pretty stickler for when it comes to, like,
59:29SPEAKERpixel peeping and looking at this stuff.
59:31SPEAKERI was so skeptical of the panoramic photos,
59:34SPEAKERso one of the things, like, oh, all your panoramas,
59:37SPEAKERnow you can really put them in film full screen.
59:39SPEAKERI'm like, I take one of these panoramas,
59:41SPEAKERI know those are typically, like,
59:42SPEAKERthe dynamic range isn't usually great on lows.
59:46SPEAKERIf you blow them up, they're not gonna look that great,
59:48SPEAKERand it didn't look like a photogrammetry environment.
59:52SPEAKERIt looked like a banner.
59:53SPEAKERIt looked like an E3, you know, EA's booth at E3,
59:57SPEAKERlike, around you, a halo ring of imagery,
1:00:00SPEAKERbut it was clear throughout.
1:00:02SPEAKERIt didn't look like they had down-sampled it.
1:00:05SPEAKER- Okay.
1:00:08SPEAKERThose videos, the 3D videos that they showed in the video,
1:00:12SPEAKERso they showed, like, it was like a birthday scene.
1:00:15SPEAKERThey showed a couple of things,
1:00:16SPEAKERbut they showed a guy with the headset on
1:00:18SPEAKERtaking the, recording the kid blowing up birthday candles,
1:00:22SPEAKERwhich, just really dystopian as hell.
1:00:26SPEAKERAnd then, when they showed you watching that,
1:00:28SPEAKERyou watched, it was like you were looking
1:00:30SPEAKERinto a 3D vignette almost,
1:00:32SPEAKERis what the perception I had from watching the video.
1:00:34SPEAKERWas that how it worked in real life,
1:00:36SPEAKERor did they kind of pop out, or was there somewhere between?
1:00:37SPEAKER- No, 100% a vignette, it's a frame vignette,
1:00:40SPEAKERand typically, when you take 3D photos or 3D video,
1:00:45SPEAKERyou're talking about two spherical images
1:00:47SPEAKERthat then get stitched together,
1:00:49SPEAKERand when you view them in a quote-unquote
1:00:52SPEAKERfirst-person perspective, which is an ideal way to view them,
1:00:55SPEAKERit fills your whole field of view.
1:00:57SPEAKERThese didn't fill your whole field of view,
1:00:59SPEAKERand I think they intentionally kind of framed them
1:01:01SPEAKERusing a vignette so that it would be like
1:01:04SPEAKERlooking into a window, into the picture,
1:01:09SPEAKERas opposed to you being immersed in the picture fully.
1:01:12SPEAKERI think they did that for image quality purposes,
1:01:15SPEAKERthey did that to give some extra processing
1:01:18SPEAKERfor some type of fake parallax.
1:01:23SPEAKERAnd I completely agree, it's dystopian.
1:01:28SPEAKERI was thinking after the fact,
1:01:28SPEAKERand I didn't even talk about it in my video,
1:01:31SPEAKERbut MPBHD talked about it extensively.
1:01:32SPEAKERHe hated it because all I could imagine
1:01:35SPEAKERwas the dad at the birthday party,
1:01:36SPEAKEReveryone's, it's the next level version
1:01:39SPEAKERof putting your phone in front of your face
1:01:40SPEAKERas opposed to looking at your kid,
1:01:41SPEAKERlooking at the candles here.
1:01:43SPEAKERI don't want to see the real photons of my kids,
1:01:45SPEAKERI want to, my future me will thank me for this
1:01:48SPEAKERif I put the headset on and capture
1:01:52SPEAKERthe volumetric info or the stereo information,
1:01:55SPEAKERand then everyone's just seeing your avatar persona eyes
1:02:00SPEAKERwith a big smile on your face, right?
1:02:01SPEAKERLike that does sound pretty dystopian.
1:02:05SPEAKER- At the same time, I took a bunch of pictures of my kid
1:02:07SPEAKERwhen she was a really little baby with the Google glasses,
1:02:10SPEAKER'cause that's when we had them.
1:02:11SPEAKERAnd I look at those pictures now sometimes,
1:02:14SPEAKERand they're really, they're a totally unique perspective,
1:02:17SPEAKER'cause it's what I saw when I was holding
1:02:18SPEAKERmy infant kid in my arms.
1:02:21SPEAKERAnd that's a, I'm almost in tears, it's a powerful--
1:02:25SPEAKER- No, no, no, it is, it is super powerful.
1:02:28SPEAKERAnd I was talking to someone after this,
1:02:31SPEAKERand I've done the same thing with 360 video,
1:02:35SPEAKERor 180 VR video, so we've done some 180 VR capture tested,
1:02:40SPEAKERand I have Lenovo made this off-the-shelf camera
1:02:44SPEAKERthat could do stereo photos or stereo video,
1:02:47SPEAKERjust with the press of a button
1:02:49SPEAKERthat you would use in their Mirage headsets.
1:02:51SPEAKERInsta360 made a camera called the EVO that you could use,
1:02:53SPEAKERand they're small cameras, two sensors, two lenses,
1:02:57SPEAKERyou press a button, it records a 5K video, process it.
1:03:00SPEAKERAnd we did that, we actually put it on a tiny tripod,
1:03:03SPEAKERand with our first kid, we recorded
1:03:05SPEAKERa couple minute-long video every month
1:03:08SPEAKERfor the first year of his life.
1:03:10SPEAKERAnd it was easy enough to use
1:03:13SPEAKERthat I could then take that video file,
1:03:15SPEAKERadjust the file name, throw it on the Oculus Quest,
1:03:19SPEAKERand actually literally relive that moment
1:03:22SPEAKERfrom the camera's perspective.
1:03:23SPEAKERYou see in 3D, full immersive video,
1:03:26SPEAKERlike my baby as he was crawling on the floor to camera,
1:03:29SPEAKERa moment that I will never get to live again,
1:03:32SPEAKERand for anyone who's a parent,
1:03:34SPEAKERyou don't remember the first year of your kid's life,
1:03:37SPEAKERreally, 'cause you're just trying to survive.
1:03:38SPEAKERSo I've, in quiet moments, put on my headset
1:03:42SPEAKERand relived those minutes,
1:03:43SPEAKERand I'm choking up talking about it
1:03:45SPEAKERbecause it is one of the most,
1:03:47SPEAKERit is maybe the most important digital asset
1:03:49SPEAKERin my life right now, those files.
1:03:51SPEAKER- Some of you guys are just coming around
1:03:52SPEAKERon the dystopian features.
1:03:53SPEAKER(all laughing)
1:03:54SPEAKER- No, the difference is-- - But I'm just saying--
1:03:56SPEAKER- Yeah, Norm could put the camera on the ground,
1:03:57SPEAKERit didn't have to have the headset on its face.
1:03:59SPEAKER- That's a big difference.
1:04:00SPEAKERThat's absolutely a big difference.
1:04:01SPEAKERBut I think they're trying,
1:04:02SPEAKERthat's the promise they're trying to solve.
1:04:04SPEAKERI think they've undersold that
1:04:05SPEAKERbecause that was the most un-Apple thing
1:04:08SPEAKERabout this announcement is that they ended it with like,
1:04:10SPEAKERthis is the most powerful personal electronics,
1:04:12SPEAKERthe most highly advanced electronic,
1:04:14SPEAKERadvanced electronics device, right,
1:04:16SPEAKERthat they've ever, personal electronics device,
1:04:18SPEAKERwhatever they called it.
1:04:19SPEAKERAnd that was such a cold way of describing this thing
1:04:24SPEAKERbecause everything that Apple makes
1:04:26SPEAKERis about the human emotional connection
1:04:29SPEAKERthat it gives you.
1:04:31SPEAKERAnd I really believe that if,
1:04:35SPEAKERthe way they've developed the video capture
1:04:39SPEAKERand the way you're able to experience those memories,
1:04:42SPEAKERlike for the people who buy this headset,
1:04:45SPEAKERthose are memories that they'll treasure forever
1:04:49SPEAKERand may be worth $3,500 to them.
1:04:52SPEAKERAnd if you view it from that lens,
1:04:54SPEAKERthen it's like if someone, if you had a kid in 2005, right,
1:04:59SPEAKERand someone told you, I could give you for $3,000
1:05:04SPEAKERan iPhone 7, right, to take photos of your kid
1:05:09SPEAKERbefore the world was ready for smartphone cameras
1:05:12SPEAKERand you would have thousands of photos of your kid
1:05:14SPEAKERbefore smartphones came out with cameras in 2008, 2009,
1:05:19SPEAKERyou'd take it, you'd pay for it.
1:05:21SPEAKERAnd they didn't sell that aspect of it.
1:05:23SPEAKERBut I think that's what I will use it for.
1:05:26SPEAKER- It's also worth noting that if you believe the idea
1:05:28SPEAKERthat this is actually just a stop gap
1:05:30SPEAKERuntil they can get to true AR
1:05:31SPEAKERthat doesn't have a giant weird fake screen
1:05:33SPEAKERof your face on it, then this problem somewhat goes away.
1:05:36SPEAKER- I mean, the other thing is there's plenty of room
1:05:38SPEAKERon the bottom of the iPhone to put another camera
1:05:40SPEAKERthat's about eyeball distance apart.
1:05:43SPEAKERSo this is a tractable problem.
1:05:47SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:05:49SPEAKER- This is a question I should have understood
1:05:50SPEAKERfrom the videos and presentations,
1:05:52SPEAKERbut it really wasn't clear.
1:05:53SPEAKERWhen you place something like that,
1:05:55SPEAKERlike are there two contexts or is there a context
1:05:57SPEAKERwhere you can place a window in physical space in your room?
1:06:00SPEAKERAnd then is there a HUD aspect that kind of tracks with you
1:06:03SPEAKERor is it all one or all the other
1:06:05SPEAKERor some thing that I'm not thinking of?
1:06:09SPEAKER- It's all one, it's all the physical space.
1:06:12SPEAKERSo it's all relative to how they've mapped your room.
1:06:15SPEAKERYou drag things, so there's a long bar at the bottom.
1:06:19SPEAKERAnd if you look at it and hold your fingers together,
1:06:24SPEAKERyou've basically gripped this thing
1:06:26SPEAKERand then you kind of move it in the physical space,
1:06:30SPEAKERkind of like a 3D mouse would do
1:06:32SPEAKERand you'll put it further away from you
1:06:34SPEAKERor put it closer to you.
1:06:35SPEAKERAt the same time on the bottom right-hand corner
1:06:37SPEAKERof these windows, you can also then resize.
1:06:41SPEAKERAnd so we talk a lot about this in VR and AR,
1:06:45SPEAKERbut like scaling, there's two ways of scaling things.
1:06:48SPEAKERYou can scale things by increasing the size of it
1:06:50SPEAKERor you can scale things by bringing them closer
1:06:52SPEAKERor further away and you have to be able to do both
1:06:55SPEAKERand it does change the way things are rendered.
1:06:58SPEAKERExcept text.
1:06:59SPEAKERText, it feels like they've locked it in
1:07:01SPEAKERso even though you can move your Safari window further away
1:07:05SPEAKERor move it closer, they will scale the DPI of the text
1:07:09SPEAKERso it will always be a certain readable size.
1:07:11SPEAKER- That is a very iOS solution to that problem.
1:07:15SPEAKERThey've been doing the same thing,
1:07:16SPEAKERlike they've been rendering images at a different DPI
1:07:20SPEAKERthan text for 15 years, 10 years at this point almost, so.
1:07:25SPEAKER- That's what they're good at.
1:07:26SPEAKER- How, so like what happens
1:07:29SPEAKERif you try to place something beyond a wall?
1:07:33SPEAKER- I think it wouldn't let you.
1:07:34SPEAKERSo it's not like you're gonna hit a visual boundary,
1:07:37SPEAKERbut I think the further you push, it'll just--
1:07:40SPEAKER- It'll just stop going.
1:07:41SPEAKER- It'll stop because like you see a wall there,
1:07:43SPEAKERwhy would you wanna push the object beyond that wall?
1:07:45SPEAKER'Cause it won't do, yeah.
1:07:47SPEAKER- It is mapping the environment.
1:07:48SPEAKERLike it is-- - 100%, yes.
1:07:50SPEAKER- I wonder if they relaxed that
1:07:51SPEAKERwhen you're in an immersive environment
1:07:52SPEAKERbecause the virtual space is bigger than your actual room.
1:07:55SPEAKER- That's a really good question.
1:07:57SPEAKERI didn't try that.
1:07:58SPEAKERThat's a really good question, yeah, yeah.
1:07:59SPEAKER- Could you move the movie screen
1:08:01SPEAKERwhen you were in the movie environment?
1:08:03SPEAKEROkay. - No.
1:08:05SPEAKER- Interesting.
1:08:07SPEAKEROkay, so you did the photo thing,
1:08:08SPEAKERthey did some desktop stuff,
1:08:10SPEAKERlike just using apps and things like that?
1:08:12SPEAKER- No, so it was a,
1:08:15SPEAKERthey didn't have any desktop stuff per se.
1:08:16SPEAKERIt was all, think about they're all iOS app.
1:08:20SPEAKER- Sorry, springboard, whatever you call the iOS desktop.
1:08:22SPEAKER- Yeah, Freeform was exactly.
1:08:24SPEAKERFreeform is a specific app, like a productivity app
1:08:28SPEAKERthat then you bring up with whiteboard elements
1:08:31SPEAKERand video models. - It's a digital dry erase.
1:08:33SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:08:34SPEAKER- And you were able to draw stuff on that.
1:08:37SPEAKER- No, they let me draw.
1:08:37SPEAKERThey let me really interact with it.
1:08:39SPEAKERThey let someone else interact with it
1:08:40SPEAKERover a FaceTime call. (laughs)
1:08:44SPEAKERAgain, I think they wanted to keep the interaction with it,
1:08:46SPEAKERmostly manipulating windows with the gestures.
1:08:49SPEAKER- Okay, so.
1:08:52SPEAKERAnd then, but you got a little taste of communication.
1:08:54SPEAKERWas the other person also wearing the headset then?
1:08:56SPEAKERThey weren't, okay. - Yes,
1:08:57SPEAKERand it was their persona.
1:08:58SPEAKER- And how was that a whole,
1:09:00SPEAKERso the persona is the 3D, the 3D machine generated,
1:09:04SPEAKERby the way, I wonder what the carbon costs
1:09:06SPEAKERon generating those avatars is,
1:09:07SPEAKERbut that's a question for the future.
1:09:10SPEAKER- Well, they do it in headset.
1:09:11SPEAKERIt's not generated in the cloud.
1:09:12SPEAKERIt's done in headset.
1:09:14SPEAKERThe machine, it was just machine learned.
1:09:17SPEAKERSo just like speech to tech isn't, you know.
1:09:19SPEAKER- But generating the model to do that cost
1:09:22SPEAKERis where the carbon cost is, right?
1:09:25SPEAKER- Sure, it's the power consumption
1:09:26SPEAKERon the headset. - Yeah, the power.
1:09:27SPEAKER- On the headset, yeah. - No, no,
1:09:28SPEAKERthe power consumption of the--
1:09:29SPEAKER- Of the training. - Of the massive
1:09:30SPEAKERcomputing training that has to happen
1:09:32SPEAKERin order for that to work, yeah.
1:09:34SPEAKERAnyway. - Some costs.
1:09:34SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
1:09:36SPEAKER- Like the planet, like the planet will.
1:09:37SPEAKER- Look, when they sell eight billion of these headsets
1:09:39SPEAKERand they'll amortize that over eight billion,
1:09:41SPEAKERit'll be practically nothing.
1:09:42SPEAKERWhen they sell 100,000, it's a little bit more.
1:09:44SPEAKERAnyway. - Yeah, yeah.
1:09:45SPEAKER- I'm guessing the answer is no here,
1:09:46SPEAKERconsidering the nature of this demo sounds pretty limited.
1:09:49SPEAKERThey weren't kind enough to let you see your persona
1:09:51SPEAKERout of the headset at some point.
1:09:53SPEAKER- I never was able to generate my persona.
1:09:55SPEAKER- Oh, okay, got it, got it. - Yeah, the scare I did
1:09:56SPEAKERwas just for the fit, just to determine
1:09:58SPEAKERwhich interface based, I don't know if you should use.
1:10:01SPEAKERThat person's persona, look, you know,
1:10:03SPEAKERI presume it looked like them.
1:10:04SPEAKERI have no idea what they look like.
1:10:06SPEAKERMaybe this is the Black Mirror thing 'cause, you know,
1:10:08SPEAKERyou know, hijack personas, right?
1:10:10SPEAKERWhat if, but they'll do, I guess they'll do
1:10:12SPEAKERretinal scanning, so this'll do--
1:10:13SPEAKER- I'm gonna steal your eyeball,
1:10:14SPEAKERand then I can log in as you, Norm.
1:10:16SPEAKER- Right, Minority Report style, exactly.
1:10:18SPEAKERSteal my eyeball, log in as me,
1:10:21SPEAKER'cause the eye tracking doesn't do
1:10:23SPEAKERface scanning inside the headset.
1:10:24SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:10:25SPEAKER- But, you know, they were emoting, right?
1:10:27SPEAKERThey were emoting with their hands,
1:10:28SPEAKERmaybe over-gesturing a little bit,
1:10:30SPEAKERprobably to accentuate the tracking.
1:10:34SPEAKER- What, how, did they show like upper body,
1:10:36SPEAKERor was it head and hands?
1:10:38SPEAKER- It was head and hands.
1:10:39SPEAKERIt was head and hands vignetted,
1:10:42SPEAKERso you weren't like cheddaring the back of the head,
1:10:44SPEAKERit was kind of faded out, so there's a clip,
1:10:46SPEAKERvideo clip of it, a little bit grainy
1:10:48SPEAKERin terms of the video processing,
1:10:50SPEAKERor whatever filter they put on top.
1:10:51SPEAKERAgain, just to not make it look too much
1:10:54SPEAKERlike a rendered character, but they were smiling,
1:10:58SPEAKERmoving their eyebrows, blinking.
1:11:00SPEAKERThis is like their version of, you know,
1:11:01SPEAKERcodec avatars that Apple has, or Meta has the exact same,
1:11:05SPEAKERnow that Abrash has been working on forever.
1:11:08SPEAKER- It had real Blade Runner 2049 vibes,
1:11:10SPEAKERthe demo that they showed in the presentation.
1:11:13SPEAKER- Well, you know, in the Horizon workrooms
1:11:20SPEAKERexperiences I've done, using the Quest Pro,
1:11:22SPEAKERwith eye tracking turned on.
1:11:23SPEAKEREye tracking is really powerful for avatar communication,
1:11:26SPEAKERso even when the avatars are cartoonish,
1:11:29SPEAKEReven when they're disembodied, like torsos, right,
1:11:31SPEAKERwhich is heads and floating hands,
1:11:34SPEAKEReye movement is so important as an extra layer of cues,
1:11:39SPEAKERof communication cue, on top of head movement,
1:11:44SPEAKERthat you can get so much of just what a person's
1:11:47SPEAKERthinking about, and how they're talking.
1:11:49SPEAKERAnd you know this well, of course, so you don't avatars.
1:11:52SPEAKERSo it works, I think there's maybe a minimum bar
1:11:56SPEAKERthat the Horizon workroom stuff, the Meta stuff,
1:11:59SPEAKERdoes with eye tracking on the Quest Pro
1:12:02SPEAKERto get you some level of increased communication, right?
1:12:07SPEAKERBut it's glitchy at times, and even today,
1:12:10SPEAKERwith the Horizon workroom stuff and eye tracking,
1:12:14SPEAKERsometimes the eyelids will go, blink, extra blink,
1:12:17SPEAKERsometimes eyes will dip down, and like,
1:12:22SPEAKERpeople can look weird, and I saw some of that, yeah.
1:12:25SPEAKER- It has to not look weird ever, is the rule.
1:12:28SPEAKERLike, as the moment this gets weird, it all breaks down.
1:12:32SPEAKERThe other thing that everybody always believed,
1:12:34SPEAKERwe found at Foo, and it was just three of us,
1:12:36SPEAKERso four of us at one point, so it wasn't a lot of people,
1:12:39SPEAKERshoulders are really important, 'cause you do a lot
1:12:42SPEAKERof talking with your shoulders, like how you're
1:12:44SPEAKERmoving your hands is reflected in the shoulders,
1:12:45SPEAKERand that conveys way more information
1:12:48SPEAKERthan anybody ever realizes.
1:12:51SPEAKER- I bet they're faking that.
1:12:52SPEAKERI forget, I'll have to look back at the video clip
1:12:55SPEAKERthey showed of that Persona FaceTime call.
1:12:59SPEAKERI felt like he had shoulders, the guy that they showed.
1:13:02SPEAKER- If he had shoulders, they could absolutely be faking it,
1:13:04SPEAKER'cause that's a pretty easy thing to machine learn,
1:13:07SPEAKERjust based on some head movement and mouth movement,
1:13:10SPEAKERand they can--
1:13:11SPEAKER- Well, if you have hand and forearm,
1:13:12SPEAKERit's really straightforward.
1:13:13SPEAKER- Exactly, right, right, right.
1:13:14SPEAKERThere's some IK, and they could improve on it, yeah.
1:13:16SPEAKER- The other thing I noticed is that the faces,
1:13:19SPEAKERlike the eyes were very expressive,
1:13:21SPEAKERthe mouth was very expressive, the cheeks,
1:13:23SPEAKERlike the cheekbones and the kind of,
1:13:26SPEAKERall the, there's a bazillion muscles under your cheeks
1:13:29SPEAKERthat make you smile and frown and all those faces,
1:13:31SPEAKERand let you shift your mouth from side to side
1:13:33SPEAKERand wiggle your nose if you can wiggle your nose.
1:13:36SPEAKERAnd eyebrows and that forehead movement
1:13:40SPEAKERweren't super represented in what we could see.
1:13:43SPEAKERIt was, it seemed like it didn't seem as advanced as,
1:13:47SPEAKERI think you saw years ago a Facebook thing
1:13:49SPEAKERwhere they were doing electro-conductive tracking
1:13:51SPEAKERon your face to see what was,
1:13:53SPEAKERto measure the movement of muscles directly under your skin
1:13:58SPEAKERand represent facial stuff that way.
1:14:01SPEAKER- EKG, yeah, EKG sensing on a ring.
1:14:03SPEAKERPut a necklace on that will detect all your subtle--
1:14:06SPEAKER- It's a collar. - Muscle.
1:14:07SPEAKER- It's like you call it a collar.
1:14:08SPEAKER- Exactly, it's a collar, that's right.
1:14:09SPEAKERWell, yes, it's a collar.
1:14:10SPEAKER- Yeah. - It's, you know,
1:14:11SPEAKERbattle royale.
1:14:14SPEAKERThink about like a long-term, right?
1:14:16SPEAKERLike if you generate your avatar,
1:14:17SPEAKERare they gonna require you to refresh your avatar
1:14:20SPEAKERevery couple years just to be like accurate to who you are?
1:14:23SPEAKEROr are you gonna be talking about someone
1:14:25SPEAKERwho never wants to age?
1:14:26SPEAKERLike I have the avatar from 2024
1:14:29SPEAKERwhen I first bought the Vision Pro
1:14:32SPEAKERand I'm never gonna age and this is who I am.
1:14:34SPEAKERLike that's pretty dystopian too.
1:14:35SPEAKER- I'm gonna point out that your Google avatar right now
1:14:37SPEAKERis from 2013 or 2014, Norm.
1:14:39SPEAKER- Forever young, forever young, Will.
1:14:42SPEAKER- Okay, so the dry erase board app,
1:14:49SPEAKERwhat else did they show you?
1:14:51SPEAKER- So, you know, entertainment, right?
1:14:53SPEAKERSo, you know, the Eiger was on stage in the video.
1:14:58SPEAKER- That was a Imagine a World ad if I've ever seen one.
1:15:01SPEAKERIt was some real AT&T 1993 business.
1:15:04SPEAKER- Oh my God, yeah, the best storytelling company
1:15:06SPEAKERin the world combined with the most highest tech company
1:15:10SPEAKERin the world.
1:15:10SPEAKER- But it was also, that also looked like all bullshit.
1:15:13SPEAKERLike everything he showed looked like it was tech demo.
1:15:16SPEAKER- Yeah, is this where these certified
1:15:17SPEAKERvolumetric environments came from?
1:15:20SPEAKER- Yeah, that's where, I mean, think about the expense,
1:15:23SPEAKERlike why, is Disney Plus on Vision Plus gonna cost more
1:15:27SPEAKERor Vision OS gonna cost more to use so that you can watch?
1:15:30SPEAKER- Is it gonna be a thousand dollars a month?
1:15:32SPEAKERLike what's the install base gonna be for this thing
1:15:34SPEAKERthat's gonna justify this kind of content generation?
1:15:36SPEAKER- Right, yeah, to be able to watch Mandalorian on Tatooine.
1:15:40SPEAKER- With some bad menus, yeah.
1:15:44SPEAKER- I'm sure they're thinking of all the business cases
1:15:46SPEAKERand all the promises that, you know,
1:15:48SPEAKERand you know, Apple's probably not funding this, right?
1:15:51SPEAKERThey play hardball, they have the advantage
1:15:53SPEAKERthat Meta doesn't have or Meta has to pay for this,
1:15:56SPEAKERpay for content partners.
1:15:57SPEAKERWhile Apple can say, you know, get in early
1:15:59SPEAKERand we'll give you a keynote spotlight
1:16:01SPEAKERand featured priority placement
1:16:04SPEAKERand you can tap into the early user base.
1:16:10SPEAKER- Was it confirmed that all the stuff Disney is doing
1:16:11SPEAKERwill be exclusive to Apple?
1:16:14SPEAKER- No, they didn't say it was exclusive.
1:16:16SPEAKER- Yeah. - There's also a business
1:16:18SPEAKERrelationship with Apple and Disney
1:16:19SPEAKERbecause of the Pixar connection, right?
1:16:22SPEAKEROr is that just through jobs?
1:16:24SPEAKERI don't remember how that worked.
1:16:25SPEAKER- Spiritual connection? - Yeah, exactly.
1:16:27SPEAKERSpiritual, yeah.
1:16:28SPEAKER- Yeah, but it's like, we've seen over the years
1:16:33SPEAKERa lot of, hey, you can watch Avatar,
1:16:36SPEAKERwhichever incarnation that you're talking about
1:16:38SPEAKERon a giant screen that's, it's an 80 inch screen,
1:16:42SPEAKERfive feet from your head.
1:16:43SPEAKERDid it feel like those or did it feel different?
1:16:45SPEAKER- Avatar was the best version of Avatar
1:16:48SPEAKERI've seen outside of theaters.
1:16:49SPEAKERI would be happy, and Avatar is a franchise
1:16:53SPEAKERwhere I want, I dream about the time I got,
1:16:58SPEAKERyou know, the first time watching Avatar II
1:17:00SPEAKERin full high frame rate, you know, IMAX or Dolby Vision.
1:17:05SPEAKERAnd no home theater experience can bring that back
1:17:09SPEAKERbecause you don't get 3D movies at home really anymore.
1:17:12SPEAKERYou don't get high frame rate as a distribution.
1:17:15SPEAKERAnd this was high frame rate, 3D,
1:17:18SPEAKERwith whatever bit rate and resolution
1:17:21SPEAKERthey were streaming at or had it loaded up at
1:17:24SPEAKERfelt like the movie theater experience.
1:17:27SPEAKERI was happy, as an Avatar stan, I was happy.
1:17:30SPEAKER- Okay. - And that's the bar
1:17:31SPEAKERfor cinema. - Did you feel like
1:17:32SPEAKERyou were on Pandora, Norm?
1:17:33SPEAKER- I felt like I was underwater among the water people.
1:17:38SPEAKER- Can you get a special book where Jim Cameron is like,
1:17:41SPEAKER"You gotta do it three more times."
1:17:42SPEAKER(Norman laughs)
1:17:43SPEAKER- Right, right, right.
1:17:44SPEAKERYeah, I could scroll the dial, the crown dial,
1:17:46SPEAKERand just see the dots on their faces.
1:17:47SPEAKERPeople would feel the layers back.
1:17:49SPEAKER- Exactly.
1:17:51SPEAKER- Can I get the 3D experience of him
1:17:54SPEAKERstaple gunning someone's phone to the wall?
1:17:56SPEAKER(Norman laughs)
1:17:57SPEAKERWhich I have heard about him doing on set before.
1:18:00SPEAKER- What about the, they had a VR-y thing, kind of.
1:18:05SPEAKER- What do you mean a VR-y thing?
1:18:06SPEAKER- The dinosaur thing.
1:18:07SPEAKER- Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:18:08SPEAKERSo this was your kind of standard, like...
1:18:14SPEAKERYou know, view into a different world,
1:18:15SPEAKERturn the wall into a portal, AR demo.
1:18:18SPEAKERThat, with Magic Leap, they had that Dr. Gorebort game,
1:18:22SPEAKERthe Weta Workshop game, which had a lot of this.
1:18:26SPEAKERIt would scan the room, and based on the size of the room,
1:18:28SPEAKERdynamically open a portal,
1:18:30SPEAKERand you'd do a blasting game where aliens would come in.
1:18:32SPEAKERBut it was all what you would still call mobile graphics.
1:18:36SPEAKEROne, the registration here was perfect, of course.
1:18:38SPEAKERThey were a controlled environment,
1:18:40SPEAKERa flat wall with nothing but two picture frames on it.
1:18:43SPEAKER- Convenient.
1:18:44SPEAKER- Yeah, very convenient.
1:18:45SPEAKERYou know, they did things like, you know,
1:18:46SPEAKERthey did shadow casting on the wall, and like dynamic light.
1:18:51SPEAKERPortal opened up, and it looked like
1:18:55SPEAKERfrom a graphics standpoint.
1:18:57SPEAKER- Did you launch an app for this?
1:18:59SPEAKER- I did, I did, yeah, it's an app, yeah.
1:19:00SPEAKERSo like, you imagine there's an app,
1:19:02SPEAKERyou click in from the home screen,
1:19:04SPEAKERit automatically knows which wall to put it on,
1:19:06SPEAKERand then the wall opened up, the portal opened up,
1:19:10SPEAKERand I was looking into a prehistoric landscape,
1:19:13SPEAKERand a dinosaur walked from that landscape
1:19:15SPEAKERinto the living room environment,
1:19:19SPEAKERand it looked like a PC graphics,
1:19:22SPEAKERyou know, full, super high resolution,
1:19:26SPEAKERextremely crisp game asset.
1:19:30SPEAKER- Okay, could you interact with it all,
1:19:34SPEAKERor is it just for looking at, basically?
1:19:35SPEAKER- No, I got so close to it that it started fading away.
1:19:40SPEAKER- Okay. - Right?
1:19:41SPEAKERSo it wouldn't let you kind of bury your head into it
1:19:43SPEAKERand see into the model, so it kind of,
1:19:45SPEAKERthere's like a little barrier that would push it back,
1:19:49SPEAKERrender it back, you know, push the render boundary back,
1:19:53SPEAKERand, you know, it walked around,
1:19:55SPEAKERand then, you know, swung its tail around,
1:19:57SPEAKERand it, I mean, combined with the,
1:19:59SPEAKERI think the sound also had a lot to do with it,
1:20:01SPEAKERand the speakers were really good,
1:20:02SPEAKERand this is a really good use case of that,
1:20:05SPEAKERbut the spatial audio of that creature,
1:20:08SPEAKERthe fidelity of it, looking up to right at its, like, skin,
1:20:11SPEAKERand eyes, and the size of it,
1:20:14SPEAKERit just felt like it was in that space.
1:20:17SPEAKER- So, yeah, we haven't talked about sound at all yet.
1:20:20SPEAKERI've been kind of blown away by the spatial sound
1:20:23SPEAKERusing, like, AirPod Pros with an Apple TV, stuff like that.
1:20:27SPEAKERHow were the sound pipes, or whatever they're calling
1:20:30SPEAKERthe headband with the speakers on?
1:20:34SPEAKERDid it isolate you from the outside world at all,
1:20:35SPEAKERor was it you can hear the world, you can hear your stuff?
1:20:38SPEAKER- Yeah, so they're not on ear, they're on top of ear,
1:20:41SPEAKERthey're on the band itself, so it's kind of like what,
1:20:43SPEAKERyou know, what Metta's doing with having speakers above.
1:20:45SPEAKERThey showed, like, a cross-section view
1:20:49SPEAKERof what these speakers are, so there is a big volume there,
1:20:52SPEAKERso it can actually get some bass, right?
1:20:54SPEAKERThey're pumping a lot of air through it,
1:20:57SPEAKERbut the six microphones they have on the headset,
1:21:01SPEAKERplus the calibration that you're doing,
1:21:03SPEAKERso whatever processing you're doing,
1:21:05SPEAKERwhere you scan the location of your ear
1:21:06SPEAKERrelative to, I guess, your nose,
1:21:08SPEAKERI think they wanna see the distance between your ear
1:21:12SPEAKERand where the microphones would be,
1:21:14SPEAKERis what they're really scanning for,
1:21:16SPEAKERis then they're doing sampling non-stop,
1:21:19SPEAKERbecause every environment you're in,
1:21:22SPEAKERif you're in a big living room,
1:21:24SPEAKERif you're in a small bedroom,
1:21:25SPEAKERthe sound's gonna bounce differently,
1:21:28SPEAKERand so it's kind of like when you're setting up
1:21:30SPEAKERsurround sound and you run through a calibration,
1:21:33SPEAKERthey're doing that non-stop every time you enter a new space.
1:21:37SPEAKER- That's what that dedicated chip is for,
1:21:39SPEAKERone of the things it does, I assume.
1:21:41SPEAKER- And that's what makes those objects,
1:21:44SPEAKERwhen the virtual objects walk around that room space,
1:21:48SPEAKERecho and feel like they're actually in that location.
1:21:51SPEAKER- Oh, you were getting echoes
1:21:53SPEAKERfrom things happening in the space?
1:21:55SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:21:56SPEAKER- And the movie sound was similar?
1:22:00SPEAKER- I don't know if the movie sound was bouncing off.
1:22:02SPEAKERI didn't notice that, it just felt like surround sound,
1:22:07SPEAKERbut it sounded big, it sounded super crisp and clear.
1:22:12SPEAKER- The movie sound, was it a 3D movie?
1:22:14SPEAKERWas it a 3D version of that before?
1:22:16SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, 3D high frame rate.
1:22:18SPEAKER- Did you tilt your head to the side to see what happened?
1:22:20SPEAKER- Did not tilt my head to the side to see what happened.
1:22:23SPEAKER- Like often, because they're left, right eyes,
1:22:25SPEAKERwhen you tilt your head to the side,
1:22:26SPEAKERweird things happen typically.
1:22:27SPEAKER- Oh, you're right, you're right,
1:22:28SPEAKERfor you're talking about the video.
1:22:30SPEAKER- For the video, yeah.
1:22:32SPEAKER- I was curious how they're handling,
1:22:33SPEAKER'cause with the depth captured video,
1:22:34SPEAKERthey have the information to maybe work around, like anyway.
1:22:37SPEAKER- There's no depth capture in that video feed though.
1:22:39SPEAKER- Right, that's my point, is like it's not--
1:22:40SPEAKER- No, no, no, I think stereo would probably,
1:22:43SPEAKERit would probably look weird.
1:22:45SPEAKER- It'd have the same skewing problem it always has.
1:22:47SPEAKERI meant with the depth captured,
1:22:48SPEAKERstuff you capture with the depth cameras,
1:22:50SPEAKERyou theoretically can work around, anyway.
1:22:54SPEAKERWe're almost out of time, we've been going for a long time,
1:22:56SPEAKERNorm, I appreciate you taking the time.
1:22:59SPEAKERCan we ask some more questions?
1:22:59SPEAKER- Keep on asking more questions, more questions.
1:23:01SPEAKERWhen you, if you stop asking questions, I will die.
1:23:04SPEAKER(laughing)
1:23:05SPEAKERI'll just fall asleep for at least, for finally.
1:23:07SPEAKER- It's okay, so more general stuff.
1:23:09SPEAKERHow, like did you, Apple's really good
1:23:12SPEAKERat making prototype hardware, at this point
1:23:14SPEAKERthey have dedicated incredible resources to that.
1:23:17SPEAKERDid the hardware feel like it was done?
1:23:18SPEAKERDid it feel like hand-built stuff?
1:23:20SPEAKERDid it feel, like where did it fall on that spectrum
1:23:22SPEAKERbetween like a thing that comes off the line in China
1:23:24SPEAKERand a thing that was built by Johnny Ive
1:23:25SPEAKERin a back room 10 years ago?
1:23:27SPEAKER- It felt like if you went to the Apple store next year
1:23:30SPEAKERand paid for this, this is exactly what you would get.
1:23:33SPEAKERIt looked like, even though this is pre-production hardware,
1:23:36SPEAKERit looked like production hardware, the fit and finish.
1:23:39SPEAKER- And like the-- - From the knitting, yep.
1:23:41SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:23:42SPEAKER- The headband, the way the headband separates
1:23:45SPEAKERis the same type of easy-release clasps
1:23:48SPEAKERthat like the watchband, so there's a lot of DNA stuff
1:23:50SPEAKERthat they've learned from the watchband
1:23:53SPEAKERand development that makes all that kind of accessorizing,
1:23:58SPEAKERI'm sure there'll be maybe third-party accessories
1:24:00SPEAKERat some point, but like everything was like pull tab,
1:24:04SPEAKEReasy-release, magnetic click,
1:24:07SPEAKER'cause it's modular to a certain extent.
1:24:09SPEAKER- The thing that I am always kind of,
1:24:12SPEAKERespecially on the watch lately,
1:24:15SPEAKERlike the difference in the materials on the watch
1:24:17SPEAKERover the last 10 years is kind of incredible.
1:24:20SPEAKERLike they do such a, like the stretchy watchbands,
1:24:25SPEAKERwhich have a whole host of problems
1:24:27SPEAKER'cause they get bigger over time, whatever,
1:24:29SPEAKERit like feels so good compared to every other,
1:24:32SPEAKERlike all the knockoff stretchy watchbands.
1:24:34SPEAKERIt's like they pay attention to materials
1:24:37SPEAKERin a way that I think everybody else has a hard time doing.
1:24:41SPEAKERThe adjustment for the strap, is it, how does that work?
1:24:45SPEAKERHow do you make it bigger or smaller?
1:24:46SPEAKER- It's a dial on the back right side,
1:24:50SPEAKERand so they wanna keep the back of the head strap
1:24:53SPEAKERsoft and flush so that you can use this lying down
1:24:56SPEAKERor rested on a chair.
1:24:58SPEAKERSo the dials on the back right side,
1:24:59SPEAKERthere'll be multiple sizes of headband as well
1:25:02SPEAKERfor different shaped heads.
1:25:03SPEAKERI was using the medium size one and the top strap,
1:25:08SPEAKERwhich they didn't show, is an optional thing,
1:25:10SPEAKERbut I couldn't confirm results can be included.
1:25:12SPEAKER- Like the temple area?
1:25:13SPEAKER- Exactly, clips on right at where the solid strap part
1:25:18SPEAKERconnects to the cloth strap.
1:25:21SPEAKER- You have, at different levels of different hardware,
1:25:24SPEAKERhad motion sickness issues.
1:25:25SPEAKERDid you have anything at all?
1:25:26SPEAKERDo you feel anything weird?
1:25:27SPEAKER- No, no motion sickness, nor did I get any
1:25:30SPEAKERlike the image tearing or kind of, you know,
1:25:34SPEAKERwhen I'm looking at the display,
1:25:36SPEAKERthe thing I'm trying to look for most
1:25:38SPEAKERis like seeing the artifacts of it being a display.
1:25:41SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:25:42SPEAKER- Like sub pixels and most--
1:25:44SPEAKER- Chromatic aberrations around the edges.
1:25:46SPEAKER- Yeah, and that's more lensing, right?
1:25:48SPEAKERAnd that's a lens artifact, and there was a very minor,
1:25:51SPEAKERso it's very clear across the entire field of view.
1:25:54SPEAKERYou get lateral movement, you can,
1:25:57SPEAKERlike if I, when the heads had drooped down,
1:25:59SPEAKERyou know, if I moved around, I could see a little bit
1:26:01SPEAKERof like the distortions on the periphery.
1:26:06SPEAKERBut the only thing that made it look like a display,
1:26:10SPEAKERaside from the fact that this was like video
1:26:12SPEAKERand rendered objects, was I could see
1:26:15SPEAKERlike some sub pixel light differences,
1:26:17SPEAKERlike, yeah, the shimmer of like, you know,
1:26:22SPEAKERnot aliasing per se, but some like the color separations
1:26:26SPEAKERwhen I was manipulating or looking around a 3D model.
1:26:30SPEAKERSo like, it was just so crisp and sharp.
1:26:35SPEAKERI don't know why they're not calling it retina,
1:26:36SPEAKER'cause I would feel comfortable at this stage
1:26:39SPEAKERcalling it retina, 'cause I think the pixels
1:26:41SPEAKERare imperceptible, if you look at like
1:26:43SPEAKERwhat they called the iPhone 4, right, as retina, right,
1:26:46SPEAKERit was, you could see the pixels on iPhone 4
1:26:49SPEAKERif you like squinted, here, squinting,
1:26:51SPEAKERI couldn't see the pixels.
1:26:52SPEAKER- These are OLED screens, is that right?
1:26:54SPEAKER- Yeah, micro OLED screens, you know,
1:26:56SPEAKERand the assumption it's a Sony manufacturer,
1:26:58SPEAKERyou know, they've had all the years of making
1:27:00SPEAKERthese micro OLEDs to put in the digital EVFs, right,
1:27:04SPEAKERthe electric viewfinders of their cameras,
1:27:06SPEAKERand no word on spec, I think people are scouring
1:27:10SPEAKERthe internet, like looking for display convention releases,
1:27:14SPEAKERand like, where are the industry reports
1:27:15SPEAKERon where these panels are, and I've seen like,
1:27:18SPEAKERsomeone put out a 3840 by 2160 panel,
1:27:22SPEAKERand I've seen someone, most recent convention,
1:27:24SPEAKERdo like 3840 by like 3600, but the pixel numbers
1:27:28SPEAKERdon't match up exactly, when they say 23 million pixels,
1:27:32SPEAKERand the math says it should be roughly 3840 by 3000 pixels.
1:27:37SPEAKER- So you didn't see any hints of like the Miura
1:27:40SPEAKERthat you get in like the PlayStation VR2 on,
1:27:41SPEAKERand then some of the-- - No, yeah, no, no,
1:27:44SPEAKERand Miura's like splotchiness, right,
1:27:45SPEAKERthat's like kind of the shimmering, no, none of that.
1:27:47SPEAKER- Interesting. - None of that, yeah, yeah.
1:27:49SPEAKER- I have no idea what the difference is,
1:27:51SPEAKERI thought that was just inherent OLED at that range,
1:27:53SPEAKERbut maybe there's, I don't know.
1:27:56SPEAKER- You should describe Miura for people
1:27:57SPEAKERwho don't know what it is.
1:27:58SPEAKER- It's kind of like you said,
1:28:00SPEAKERit is a little hard to put your finger on,
1:28:01SPEAKERit's like if you have like a full white screen,
1:28:03SPEAKERlike it's really evident in the PSVR2 to me,
1:28:05SPEAKERthat's kind of the only artifacting,
1:28:07SPEAKERI really, well, you know, they're a little res as well,
1:28:09SPEAKERbut like, it's just kind of a splotchiness
1:28:12SPEAKERagainst a uniform color background,
1:28:13SPEAKERit's not like super pronounced, but if you,
1:28:15SPEAKERlike my brain tunes it out after two minutes,
1:28:17SPEAKERbut it is there.
1:28:19SPEAKER- Dirty screen, it's not shimmering,
1:28:20SPEAKERit's just like, it's dirty.
1:28:21SPEAKER- Almost like dirty, yeah.
1:28:23SPEAKER- Yeah, like water's drying, has dried, you know, on it.
1:28:28SPEAKER- How fatigued, did you notice,
1:28:29SPEAKERare you rolling the headset for what, about a half hour?
1:28:32SPEAKER- 30 minutes, yeah. - 30 minutes.
1:28:33SPEAKERHow, like, did you get a sense of fatigue?
1:28:36SPEAKERIt's not probably enough time to get a good idea.
1:28:39SPEAKER- No, no, yeah, not enough time,
1:28:41SPEAKERI wanna be in there longer, you know, if that says anything.
1:28:45SPEAKERI think they probably chose two hour battery life
1:28:48SPEAKERby factoring in not just weight of the unit
1:28:50SPEAKERand form factor of that battery unit,
1:28:52SPEAKERbut also probably, you know, it's funny, right,
1:28:56SPEAKERbecause like, they would say,
1:28:57SPEAKERyou can watch a full movie in this,
1:28:58SPEAKERand two hours of battery life is not long enough for Avatar.
1:29:01SPEAKER- That wouldn't get you through any of the MCU movies
1:29:03SPEAKERthat have come out in the last two years.
1:29:05SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:29:06SPEAKER- I feel like the battery pack is the last main thing
1:29:08SPEAKERthat we haven't covered,
1:29:08SPEAKER'cause they sure went out of their way
1:29:09SPEAKERto not show that thing during the stage presentation.
1:29:13SPEAKERDoes it fit comfortably in a back pocket,
1:29:14SPEAKERalthough you probably would wanna sit on it, I don't,
1:29:16SPEAKERbut where do you put it? - It's thicker than a phone,
1:29:18SPEAKERit's like, kind of like your Anker battery,
1:29:20SPEAKERit's like, it's, you know.
1:29:21SPEAKER- Is it like the old HTC one
1:29:23SPEAKERthat came with the wireless HTC kit?
1:29:25SPEAKER- Those are nice and high capacity.
1:29:27SPEAKERI would say it's not as thick as that,
1:29:28SPEAKERit's taller and narrower.
1:29:32SPEAKER- And it also has the charger, like you,
1:29:35SPEAKERlike that's passed through if you plug in, right?
1:29:37SPEAKER- That is a really good question,
1:29:39SPEAKERI was just thinking about that earlier today.
1:29:41SPEAKERI tried to see how I could disconnect the battery
1:29:44SPEAKERfrom the headset, 'cause it's a circular connector
1:29:46SPEAKERon the left temple, and it wasn't like a MagSafe puck
1:29:50SPEAKERwhere it easily pops off, and I didn't know
1:29:52SPEAKERif there was like a turning mechanism,
1:29:54SPEAKERthey didn't let me disconnect it, obviously,
1:29:55SPEAKERso a couple questions that I wasn't able
1:29:58SPEAKERto get answers to is one, is there a battery
1:30:00SPEAKERinside the headset for hot swapping?
1:30:02SPEAKERSo if you bought multiple batteries,
1:30:04SPEAKERcould I disconnect and connect?
1:30:06SPEAKERAnd two, if you were to run it to short power,
1:30:11SPEAKERlike you asked, does it go through the USB port
1:30:14SPEAKERon the battery, 'cause I didn't see a USB port
1:30:16SPEAKERon the headset itself.
1:30:17SPEAKER- So, I can't remember somebody else I've read,
1:30:20SPEAKERit might have been MKB HEMO, it might have been
1:30:23SPEAKERthe Verge article, said specifically if you plug in,
1:30:26SPEAKERin order to plug it into mains power,
1:30:27SPEAKERyou plug in the battery, so the battery has to be
1:30:29SPEAKERin the chain somewhere.
1:30:31SPEAKER- Which is interesting, which tells me that the battery
1:30:33SPEAKERisn't just a battery, that they're doing
1:30:36SPEAKERpower management there, and those power management chips
1:30:38SPEAKERare often a source of heat for a lot of electronics devices,
1:30:43SPEAKERnot just the cells of the battery heating up,
1:30:45SPEAKERit's the thing that's regulating that power.
1:30:47SPEAKERAnd so if they're taking that off of the headset,
1:30:50SPEAKERheat, which I didn't mention in the video,
1:30:52SPEAKERis not a factor.
1:30:53SPEAKERI supposedly tried testing for that,
1:30:55SPEAKERand there had been rumors ahead that they were struggling
1:30:58SPEAKERwith power consumption and things overheating in the demos.
1:31:03SPEAKERI put my hands around the headset, 'cause there are fans,
1:31:07SPEAKERor there are--
1:31:08SPEAKER- There are vents at the top and bottom, right?
1:31:10SPEAKER- Exactly, vents.
1:31:11SPEAKERI put my hands on top and bottom during the dinosaur demo,
1:31:14SPEAKERbecause that's where it was rendering full screen,
1:31:17SPEAKERhigh textures, lots of polygons,
1:31:20SPEAKERand not only did I not hear, I didn't feel airflow,
1:31:24SPEAKERand definitely didn't get a sense of it getting hot.
1:31:27SPEAKERIt wasn't cold to the touch,
1:31:29SPEAKERbut it wasn't aggressively warming up.
1:31:32SPEAKER- Okay, yeah, the two big questions I have
1:31:37SPEAKERand the things that make me...
1:31:40SPEAKERI think, to me, the demos that they showed
1:31:42SPEAKERmade me think that this is a device they expect people
1:31:44SPEAKERto use sitting at a desk, sitting on a couch,
1:31:48SPEAKERnot so much walking around in the world.
1:31:49SPEAKERThis doesn't seem like a thing that they expect
1:31:51SPEAKERyou to carry around in the world with you.
1:31:54SPEAKER- They do, they do.
1:31:55SPEAKERI asked about that. - Really?
1:31:56SPEAKER- I said, "Is this meant for..."
1:31:58SPEAKERAnd they were like, "No, this is all use cases."
1:32:01SPEAKERWalking down the street.
1:32:03SPEAKER- They hyped up how great it is to travel with
1:32:05SPEAKERin the stage presentation.
1:32:06SPEAKER- Maybe they think it's a new executive laptop.
1:32:10SPEAKERRemember the old pre-Macbook Air,
1:32:11SPEAKERsuper thin Toshiba laptops that were like $4,000?
1:32:15SPEAKERMaybe this is that.
1:32:19SPEAKERYou didn't notice any fan noise, though?
1:32:21SPEAKER- No, no fan noise, I could tell.
1:32:23SPEAKERAnd I think there was a fan.
1:32:24SPEAKERI think they said there was a fan inside.
1:32:26SPEAKER- They probably can cancel that out.
1:32:28SPEAKERHonestly. - Oh, yeah, good point.
1:32:30SPEAKER- Yeah, what about refresh rate on the headset?
1:32:34SPEAKERDo you have a sense of that?
1:32:35SPEAKERI'm sure they didn't get a number.
1:32:37SPEAKER- I asked, they didn't give a number,
1:32:39SPEAKERmore details to come sometime in the future.
1:32:43SPEAKERI felt it was 90.
1:32:45SPEAKER- Okay.
1:32:46SPEAKER- Other people have said 120.
1:32:47SPEAKER- Yeah, MKBHD said 120.
1:32:50SPEAKER- I can tell the difference between 90 and 120.
1:32:52SPEAKERI can tell that, definitely not 72.
1:32:55SPEAKERI can, this felt better than 72.
1:32:59SPEAKERBut even 90 can feel better
1:33:02SPEAKERif the pixel response is fast enough.
1:33:05SPEAKER- It's crisp.
1:33:06SPEAKER- If it's crisp.
1:33:08SPEAKERI feel like it's 90.
1:33:10SPEAKERI find it hard to believe.
1:33:13SPEAKERIt's both my experience with this,
1:33:14SPEAKERbut also just my awareness of what the,
1:33:16SPEAKERhow hard it is to make these displays.
1:33:18SPEAKERI find it hard to believe
1:33:19SPEAKERthat they found a next generation panel
1:33:22SPEAKERthat would be not only be a generation higher
1:33:26SPEAKERin terms of pixel density for whatever 1.3
1:33:30SPEAKERor whatever one-inch panel size they're using,
1:33:32SPEAKERand also be higher refresh rate than what's on the market.
1:33:36SPEAKER- So the one question I had
1:33:39SPEAKERis because they have the,
1:33:42SPEAKERbecause they're building the display controller
1:33:43SPEAKERand the video render and the whole thing,
1:33:45SPEAKERthey can do some weird stuff
1:33:46SPEAKERthat other people probably can't.
1:33:48SPEAKERThey could be doing variable refresh rates inside the panel
1:33:50SPEAKERwhere they're refreshing the center fovea pixels
1:33:53SPEAKERfaster than the edge pixels or something like that,
1:33:55SPEAKERwhich could also give you that perception difference.
1:33:58SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:33:59SPEAKERAnd then it is foveated rendered but imperceptible.
1:34:04SPEAKER- Like you didn't see the lag.
1:34:05SPEAKEROn some of the early foveated stuff,
1:34:07SPEAKERI remember seeing, like you didn't,
1:34:09SPEAKERit just seemed like a little smudgy if it didn't,
1:34:13SPEAKERif it was, like it seemed like there was a weird shimmer
1:34:18SPEAKERaround the area that was being rendered high
1:34:22SPEAKERand you didn't get any of that?
1:34:23SPEAKER- Nothing.
1:34:24SPEAKERI mean, fovea is such an interesting thing
1:34:27SPEAKER'cause we've heard at conferences,
1:34:30SPEAKERone, how tough is it to do
1:34:31SPEAKERbecause the more tightly foveated you want,
1:34:37SPEAKERit means the better the eye tracking has to be.
1:34:39SPEAKER- Foveated means you only are rendering the part of your,
1:34:42SPEAKERlike the density of vision sensors,
1:34:45SPEAKERreceptors on your, light receptors on your eyeball
1:34:47SPEAKERis concentrated in the fovea of the back of your eye.
1:34:51SPEAKERAnd that, by only rendering the part that you're looking at,
1:34:56SPEAKERyou can spend all of your GPU compute
1:34:59SPEAKERon a relatively small area of the screen.
1:35:01SPEAKER- Sorry, by scaling, by having a higher density of pixels
1:35:04SPEAKERand maybe a de-sampling for the parts outside of it,
1:35:09SPEAKERthen yeah, you get some efficiencies that way.
1:35:11SPEAKERAnd from what I understood from the talks
1:35:13SPEAKERI've heard at VR conferences,
1:35:15SPEAKERit's hard because I move so quickly, right?
1:35:18SPEAKERSo to get any perceptible benefits,
1:35:21SPEAKERyou either have to expand,
1:35:22SPEAKERyou have to have better eye tracking, better prediction,
1:35:24SPEAKERor expand the rendering space
1:35:27SPEAKERto a point where your benefits are really minor.
1:35:32SPEAKERBut if their eye tracking is that good,
1:35:34SPEAKERand maybe it makes more sense
1:35:36SPEAKERbecause there's maybe a bigger range of rendering here.
1:35:39SPEAKERIt's not mobile rendering, like they're really,
1:35:41SPEAKERlike they go from zero to a hundred, it's a bigger gap.
1:35:46SPEAKERSo they do get more benefits that way.
1:35:48SPEAKERBut they were really proud of it being,
1:35:50SPEAKERusing foveated rendering.
1:35:52SPEAKER- I mean, it seems like the right way to go
1:35:54SPEAKERfor anything that's based on arm silicon, even fast arm silicon.
1:35:58SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah, it's a necessity.
1:35:59SPEAKERAnd then PSVR too has foveated rendering as well.
1:36:02SPEAKERAnd that one is good enough that you don't notice it.
1:36:06SPEAKERLike I couldn't notice it,
1:36:07SPEAKERbut if you mirror the image out to a monitor,
1:36:10SPEAKERpeople watching that mirrored image, 100% notice it.
1:36:13SPEAKERThey can see the edges as to where you're not looking,
1:36:16SPEAKERthe textures going lower res.
1:36:18SPEAKER- All right, any more burning hardware questions?
1:36:21SPEAKER'Cause I do want to take five minutes
1:36:22SPEAKERto talk to him about the mothership before he has to go.
1:36:24SPEAKER- Yeah, I've got a couple more.
1:36:27SPEAKERDid the battery pack have a clip on it for women?
1:36:30SPEAKER- Nope, flat butter.
1:36:32SPEAKERWhy not a caddy?
1:36:33SPEAKERYou have a pack caddy?
1:36:35SPEAKER- Well, I mean, look, you need to have some place
1:36:37SPEAKERyou can put it because people don't have pockets, right?
1:36:40SPEAKER- Don't you want to see like the Apple designs,
1:36:42SPEAKERlike artisanal fanny pack?
1:36:45SPEAKER- It's gonna be a sling bag.
1:36:46SPEAKER- It's a holster.
1:36:47SPEAKER- Holster.
1:36:47SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:36:49SPEAKER- What about the interface?
1:36:50SPEAKERIs the interface going to mess up makeup and stuff?
1:36:54SPEAKER- Oh, you mean the actual physical thing?
1:36:55SPEAKER- The face interface where it hits your face.
1:36:57SPEAKER- Yeah, so there's a pad that's just the ring, right?
1:37:01SPEAKERIn addition to the spongy facial interface,
1:37:04SPEAKERthere's the space pad, the spacer pad.
1:37:08SPEAKERYeah, it's full contact on your face.
1:37:10SPEAKERSo if you're wearing makeup, it's gonna probably be on there.
1:37:12SPEAKER- It's gonna be bad.
1:37:13SPEAKERDid they talk about which parts
1:37:15SPEAKERof that interface are washable?
1:37:16SPEAKERCan you take that stuff off and wash it?
1:37:18SPEAKER- Yes, yes, the spacer and the pad are both washable.
1:37:21SPEAKER- And the backstrap as well?
1:37:22SPEAKER- Yes, and the backstrap as well.
1:37:23SPEAKER- Okay, that's a like--
1:37:25SPEAKER- Well, actually, I don't want to speak for the backstrap.
1:37:27SPEAKERI might say my assumption because of the fabric,
1:37:29SPEAKERbut they explicitly did say the front--
1:37:31SPEAKER- Spacer, okay, that's good.
1:37:33SPEAKERThat's something at least.
1:37:36SPEAKERMy last thing is really that they have spent
1:37:39SPEAKERthe last like four years making us feel bad
1:37:41SPEAKERfor how much time we spent on our phones
1:37:43SPEAKERsince they added screen time to the devices.
1:37:45SPEAKERAnd I get the thing every Sunday morning.
1:37:46SPEAKERIt's like, yo, you spent like eight hours a day
1:37:48SPEAKERon your phone, dog.
1:37:49SPEAKERYou should be doing something else with your life.
1:37:52SPEAKER- Did you see the thing they announced in iOS or iPad OS?
1:37:55SPEAKERThe face, the too close to screen detection?
1:38:00SPEAKER- Oh yeah, right, yeah.
1:38:02SPEAKER- Right, like 30 minutes before they announced
1:38:05SPEAKERthe Vision Pro, they announced a feature for iPad OS
1:38:07SPEAKERwhere if your kids are too close to the screen,
1:38:10SPEAKERit will know and give you an alert and a warning
1:38:12SPEAKERto back up from the screen, which is like half
1:38:15SPEAKERof what I do when my kids watch TV anyway
1:38:17SPEAKERis tell them to back away, too close, too close.
1:38:21SPEAKERAnd yet, this is a screen that sensibly is like--
1:38:24SPEAKER- Rest on your eyeballs.
1:38:25SPEAKER- Right, exactly.
1:38:27SPEAKER- I mean, did they reconcile that at all?
1:38:29SPEAKERThis is the thing that takes over your whole sensorium.
1:38:31SPEAKERIt feels weird.
1:38:32SPEAKEROkay, Norm's shaking his head.
1:38:34SPEAKER- They did not reconcile that, yeah.
1:38:37SPEAKER- Everyone ended their stuff with no one
1:38:39SPEAKERshould buy this thing unless you're a journalist
1:38:40SPEAKERwho's gonna write about it a lot or you're an app developer.
1:38:43SPEAKERIs that your, like, where you end up?
1:38:46SPEAKER- I can't make that assessment right now, yeah.
1:38:50SPEAKEREspecially falling into one of those camps.
1:38:53SPEAKER- Yeah, well, I mean, I know where you land, Norm.
1:38:57SPEAKER- I will say this.
1:38:58SPEAKERI did the mental exercise ahead of it, ahead of the event.
1:39:02SPEAKERIf it does, based on all the rumors
1:39:05SPEAKERand based on what I know and expect from Apple products
1:39:08SPEAKERand the rumor price being $3,000, what is my, like,
1:39:12SPEAKERmy secret hope of what price it would be?
1:39:14SPEAKERWhere could I see myself spending the money?
1:39:17SPEAKERAt what level?
1:39:18SPEAKERAnd I told myself I could spend,
1:39:20SPEAKERI would spend $2,000 to buy a headset from Apple.
1:39:25SPEAKERAnd my hope was that, like the iPad,
1:39:27SPEAKERwhich was that launch rumor at $1,000
1:39:29SPEAKERand they launched at 500 bucks,
1:39:31SPEAKERthe hope was that the $3,000 number was a intentional leak
1:39:34SPEAKERto then surprise people and say it was lower.
1:39:36SPEAKERAnd then they went the opposite direction.
1:39:37SPEAKER- They surprised people for sure.
1:39:38SPEAKER- They definitely surprised people.
1:39:40SPEAKERYou've seen all the TikTok, right?
1:39:41SPEAKERThe clip of the Apple campus when video played
1:39:46SPEAKERand they announced the price 'cause they caveat it.
1:39:49SPEAKERThey ended the whole keynote with,
1:39:51SPEAKERthink about how much you spend on a TV, a computer,
1:39:56SPEAKERall these things at your home
1:39:57SPEAKERand we're launching this at 34.99
1:40:00SPEAKERand you can hear and feel 1,000 people groaning.
1:40:06SPEAKER- I changed my mind.
1:40:07SPEAKERI don't want to hear about the mothership anymore.
1:40:09SPEAKER- It's three, Norm, it's 3/5 of an Apple cinema display.
1:40:12SPEAKERIt's a bargain.
1:40:14SPEAKERYou can have all the display space in the world.
1:40:16SPEAKER- I mean, this is the realm of people
1:40:18SPEAKERwho are not buying this to be their next phone,
1:40:23SPEAKERto be even their next computer, right?
1:40:25SPEAKERLike there's certainly a place
1:40:28SPEAKERwhere people are spending a couple thousand dollars
1:40:30SPEAKERbecause it is the thing that makes them money
1:40:32SPEAKERor it's the thing that's essential to their livelihood
1:40:35SPEAKERor for school as a giant purchase, right?
1:40:38SPEAKEROr for gaming.
1:40:40SPEAKERCertainly people have spent 3,000 plus on gaming
1:40:43SPEAKERfor a device that they're going to be using
1:40:45SPEAKERnot just for gaming,
1:40:46SPEAKERbut it's their primary way of interacting
1:40:49SPEAKERwith the digital world.
1:40:52SPEAKERThis moves into, because it's a new field, new territory,
1:40:57SPEAKERit goes straight from the realm of
1:41:00SPEAKERI would save money to buy this
1:41:02SPEAKERto I could buy a car or pay a month of a mortgage.
1:41:06SPEAKER- I literally leased a Bolt for three years
1:41:08SPEAKERfor about the same amount of money, right?
1:41:10SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:41:11SPEAKER- With the California incentives and all that.
1:41:15SPEAKERIt's interesting you say that
1:41:16SPEAKERbecause when I was working at FU,
1:41:18SPEAKERI literally bought eight different VR headsets,
1:41:21SPEAKERlike eight Vibes to do shoots and stuff with,
1:41:23SPEAKERand it's expensive,
1:41:26SPEAKERbut in the realm of a thing that you're making money
1:41:28SPEAKERas a business doing, $3,500 is kind of a,
1:41:31SPEAKERit's a drop in the pan if it's a real business, right?
1:41:35SPEAKERIf it's supporting you, even a single developer, $3,500
1:41:39SPEAKERisn't that much money.
1:41:40SPEAKERIt's interesting that they're just
1:41:42SPEAKERdoing a big consumer presentation
1:41:44SPEAKERfor what is essentially a dev kit.
1:41:47SPEAKERAnd their track record with version zero products
1:41:50SPEAKERor version one products is bad.
1:41:53SPEAKERLike the Apple Watch Series Zero didn't last,
1:41:55SPEAKERit lasted like two years.
1:41:57SPEAKERThe first iPad was great for a year
1:42:02SPEAKERand then immediately it died.
1:42:04SPEAKERLike maybe the fact that they made this a $3,500 dev kit
1:42:09SPEAKERinstead of pricing at a consumer level
1:42:11SPEAKERmeans that it'll actually last a long time
1:42:13SPEAKER'cause it's not like there's a lot of headroom
1:42:14SPEAKERleft on silicon to get more performance
1:42:17SPEAKERor displays to get better resolution or, right?
1:42:22SPEAKER- I don't think it'll be obsolete.
1:42:23SPEAKERI mean, if it's shipping next year,
1:42:25SPEAKERit feels like a four or five year device.
1:42:31SPEAKERThe question is what is the price point
1:42:33SPEAKERthey really want to hit for the person
1:42:36SPEAKERthat would be buying an iPhone every three years.
1:42:39SPEAKER- What's the Vision Pro Air cost, Vision Air cost, yeah.
1:42:43SPEAKER- Is it $1,500?
1:42:46SPEAKERAnd at that point, what do they get rid of
1:42:47SPEAKERfrom this device to make it a non-pro version?
1:42:50SPEAKER- Well, the eyeballs go for sure.
1:42:52SPEAKERBut the $1,500 device to me says,
1:42:56SPEAKERthat means you have a three-way choice
1:42:57SPEAKERbetween buying a fancy iPad,
1:42:59SPEAKERbuying a MacBook, or buying this.
1:43:01SPEAKERAnd that to me doesn't mean it's a supplement
1:43:03SPEAKERfor my MacBook.
1:43:05SPEAKERIt means you put a keyboard with it
1:43:07SPEAKERand it replaces your MacBook, right?
1:43:09SPEAKER- I would argue that Apple has done really well
1:43:13SPEAKERin the past of adding product categories
1:43:15SPEAKERand then people end up buying all of them.
1:43:18SPEAKERA lot of people end up buying all of them,
1:43:20SPEAKERwatch AirPods, laptop, iPad, phone,
1:43:25SPEAKERbecause of the network effects of how they all work together.
1:43:28SPEAKERAnd certainly some people make the person's decision,
1:43:31SPEAKERbut they've found a way to get people
1:43:33SPEAKERto buy new watches every couple years
1:43:35SPEAKERwhen the most I've ever spent on a watch
1:43:37SPEAKERbefore five years ago was 50 bucks.
1:43:40SPEAKER- 50 bucks, yeah.
1:43:41SPEAKERI mean, I feel like the watch and the AirPods
1:43:44SPEAKERand the phone and the iPad/laptop,
1:43:47SPEAKERI feel like the iPad and laptop
1:43:48SPEAKERare filling increasingly the same slot these days
1:43:50SPEAKERand they're at that same price.
1:43:52SPEAKERAnyway, I don't know, this is gaming stuff out
1:43:56SPEAKERthat's not gonna matter for three years.
1:44:00SPEAKERBut yeah, are you excited about this?
1:44:05SPEAKERDid you have dreams about this?
1:44:06SPEAKERDid you wake up this morning thinking about this
1:44:08SPEAKERlike we did after the Vive and the first Oculus demos
1:44:10SPEAKERand stuff like that?
1:44:11SPEAKER- I had way more dreams the night before.
1:44:13SPEAKERI had three separate dreams about the keynote
1:44:17SPEAKERand it was the version of showing up to a test
1:44:22SPEAKERwithout the answers.
1:44:24SPEAKERI literally had dreams fumbling the camera gear.
1:44:26SPEAKER- Well, that's a different,
1:44:28SPEAKERlike stress dreams about being the only person
1:44:31SPEAKERfrom your organization having covered Apple events before,
1:44:35SPEAKERlike that, it's scary.
1:44:38SPEAKER'Cause if you mess up, there's no safety net.
1:44:40SPEAKERYou're the only one there,
1:44:41SPEAKERyou're the only one that can help yourself.
1:44:43SPEAKERAfter we saw the Vive demo at GDC,
1:44:46SPEAKERfor the next like four or five days,
1:44:47SPEAKERwe came in and we kept talking about it over and over again.
1:44:49SPEAKERWe're like, "Did you see this part?
1:44:50SPEAKER"Oh yeah, I saw that part."
1:44:52SPEAKERAnd I'm wondering if you're having that same kind of like,
1:44:54SPEAKERare you replaying in your head,
1:44:56SPEAKERtrying to figure out what you missed, stuff like that,
1:44:58SPEAKERor are you just so sleep deprived these days
1:45:00SPEAKERthat that's hopeless?
1:45:01SPEAKER- It's only one day after.
1:45:02SPEAKERI mean, if there's any part of the demo
1:45:04SPEAKERthat I felt like I'm revisiting,
1:45:07SPEAKERit's honestly the video, the avatar video.
1:45:11SPEAKERIt's like, I've done plenty of watching movies,
1:45:13SPEAKERstream from Plex at the highest bit rate
1:45:15SPEAKERor trying to stream from like Amazon or Netflix in headset.
1:45:19SPEAKERAnd even though I can get that virtual giant screen,
1:45:23SPEAKERthe video quality has always been so low.
1:45:25SPEAKERIt's like the same downsampling or gathering effects.
1:45:29SPEAKERAnd if they can get the streaming quality
1:45:34SPEAKERbecause they have their whole library of Apple TV
1:45:36SPEAKERand they can work with the content partners
1:45:38SPEAKERto make sure whatever's delivered on here
1:45:40SPEAKERis making the most of that panel,
1:45:43SPEAKERlike I'm, as someone who loves watching movies,
1:45:45SPEAKERlike I can't wait.
1:45:48SPEAKER- Well, you have four people in your family,
1:45:49SPEAKERso you need $15,000 worth of these and you'll be good to go.
1:45:54SPEAKERIt's interesting to me that they're establishing
1:45:55SPEAKERthis as the min spec too.
1:45:57SPEAKERLike starting with really high-end hardware
1:45:59SPEAKERmeans that theoretically in the future, yeah, anyway.
1:46:03SPEAKERMothership questions abound, Brad.
1:46:05SPEAKERI'll step out of your way now, sorry.
1:46:07SPEAKER- Three minutes, what do you got to say?
1:46:09SPEAKER- So first time at Apple Park, right?
1:46:13SPEAKERThey had so many people working the event, right?
1:46:17SPEAKERI don't know if this is like some full-time people,
1:46:20SPEAKERsome contract, but like even pulling into the garage
1:46:23SPEAKERto park my car, getting there early in the morning,
1:46:26SPEAKERwas like 20 people with wands directing you
1:46:30SPEAKERto the perfect spot. - Phil Schiller,
1:46:31SPEAKERfront of the line, just lining you up, getting you in.
1:46:33SPEAKER- And then from the moment you get out of the car
1:46:35SPEAKERand you get everything signed in,
1:46:36SPEAKERlike the check-in, like security check-in,
1:46:38SPEAKERand most of these people, most people attending
1:46:40SPEAKERare developers, like green badge developers.
1:46:42SPEAKERWe were a magenta, pink badge media,
1:46:45SPEAKERbut the campus was not open for folks,
1:46:48SPEAKERbut the ring, the walkway around the campus,
1:46:51SPEAKERit's like Disneyland where when you walk in,
1:46:53SPEAKERthere's like a line that you cross.
1:46:55SPEAKEROnce you pass through their main reception building
1:46:58SPEAKERand you walk through a pathway, the outside world is gone.
1:47:01SPEAKERLike it's just trees, right?
1:47:02SPEAKERYou are in an enclosed garden, utopia, dystopia, cult,
1:47:07SPEAKERwhatever you want to call it,
1:47:08SPEAKERwhere it's just trees on one side,
1:47:11SPEAKERa pathway and a mothership ring
1:47:15SPEAKERthat's massive on the other side.
1:47:19SPEAKERAnd they let us pretty freely walk around that ring
1:47:22SPEAKERto get to the media room,
1:47:25SPEAKERoverlooking the big outdoor stage area,
1:47:28SPEAKERthe big cafeteria area.
1:47:30SPEAKERAnd they got tons of people and everyone,
1:47:32SPEAKERjust a big smile on their face.
1:47:34SPEAKERI guess they're more for the developers,
1:47:35SPEAKERbut cheering the developers, you're here.
1:47:37SPEAKERKind of had that like, we're waited in line at New York
1:47:41SPEAKERfor overnight, so three nights in a row
1:47:43SPEAKERto buy the first iPhone, that kind of Apple store energy.
1:47:46SPEAKERHigh fives, people in like same color matching t-shirts,
1:47:50SPEAKEReveryone with big smile, lots of like,
1:47:52SPEAKERconcierge folks helping the developers,
1:47:57SPEAKERate lunch in their cafeteria.
1:47:59SPEAKERThey had like, I think typically they would be cashiers,
1:48:02SPEAKERbut they had like eight different types of food.
1:48:05SPEAKERYou're Mediterranean, you're Asian food, you're grill.
1:48:08SPEAKERAnd it was all free for developers.
1:48:12SPEAKERAnd then got to walk down the Steve Jobs Theater.
1:48:15SPEAKERSo that's a big, like a miniature,
1:48:20SPEAKERcylindrical glass building.
1:48:21SPEAKERAnd you walk to send down the stairs
1:48:23SPEAKERand famously has those like a big granite staircase
1:48:27SPEAKERwhere it's not handrails.
1:48:28SPEAKERIt's like this carved granite rail system
1:48:31SPEAKERthat you walk down and that's where they had a demo area
1:48:35SPEAKERwhere you got the photos and the B roll of the headset.
1:48:38SPEAKERAnd then they erected a big demo building,
1:48:42SPEAKERlike this white building with no doors,
1:48:45SPEAKERkind of open entrance, no videos or photos
1:48:48SPEAKERlooking into the building.
1:48:49SPEAKERI wasn't able to even film the ride up to the building,
1:48:52SPEAKERthe pathway, but it's like,
1:48:54SPEAKERit's next to where the basketball courts are.
1:48:57SPEAKERAnd that's where they had like couches set up,
1:48:59SPEAKERkind of like a mini Apple store with some headsets
1:49:02SPEAKERthat I couldn't take pictures of there.
1:49:04SPEAKERAnd then rooms set off to the side
1:49:05SPEAKERwhere they were giving these private demos in a small,
1:49:08SPEAKERsay maybe like 15 foot by 15 foot room space.
1:49:13SPEAKERYeah, with a couch.
1:49:15SPEAKER- They had a couple of people in the demos with you?
1:49:18SPEAKER- There was one person demoing, so it's just me at a time,
1:49:20SPEAKERbut like two Apple employees.
1:49:22SPEAKER- Two Apple employees, yeah.
1:49:24SPEAKERDid you feel like they were watching what you were seeing?
1:49:26SPEAKER- They were.
1:49:27SPEAKERThey explicitly said what you see, they had an iPad.
1:49:30SPEAKERAnd so there's some type of mirroring mode
1:49:32SPEAKERand because it's their hardware,
1:49:34SPEAKERanytime you do kind of mirroring or recording on a quest,
1:49:37SPEAKERtaking a performance hit,
1:49:39SPEAKERI guess they were happy to take the performance hit
1:49:40SPEAKER'cause I didn't notice any slowdown.
1:49:41SPEAKERThey could see what I was looking at
1:49:43SPEAKERand help guide the experience.
1:49:44SPEAKER- I wondered about that
1:49:45SPEAKER'cause that's always the question, right?
1:49:47SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:49:48SPEAKERI don't know if that will be surfaceable to users though.
1:49:51SPEAKER- I'm sure this is documented elsewhere.
1:49:52SPEAKERDoes the ring have any kind of people mover,
1:49:54SPEAKERhorizontal people mover in it?
1:49:55SPEAKERBecause like if you have a regular meeting
1:49:57SPEAKERwith somebody on the far side of the ring,
1:49:59SPEAKERthat seems like a lot of wasted travel time.
1:50:01SPEAKER- They employ an army of people with carts.
1:50:04SPEAKERAt least they did for-
1:50:05SPEAKER- They have special Apple carts or was it like golf carts?
1:50:06SPEAKER- No, it's like golf carts with six seaters or eight seaters
1:50:10SPEAKERand they had those driving around,
1:50:13SPEAKERpeople ferrying people around.
1:50:15SPEAKER- Apple car.
1:50:16SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:50:17SPEAKER- What do you think about the real Apple cars?
1:50:18SPEAKER- A lot of glass, whole lot of glass,
1:50:20SPEAKERmassive, massive building.
1:50:22SPEAKER- Do you see anybody walking into any windows?
1:50:25SPEAKER- No.
1:50:26SPEAKER- Just smash into them, not see them?
1:50:27SPEAKEROkay.
1:50:28SPEAKER- No, and like in the center of that giant green space
1:50:30SPEAKERis where they film with the Pride Rainbow for this month
1:50:34SPEAKERand some people were having,
1:50:36SPEAKERI think they had like hoarded off areas.
1:50:39SPEAKERYou can get too far into it and people are still working.
1:50:42SPEAKEREven though it's WWDC, people are still working that day
1:50:44SPEAKERand certainly like zones that you can go into
1:50:46SPEAKERbut it felt like there's a lot of space I could,
1:50:51SPEAKERon the outside at least, walk around after the keynote
1:50:55SPEAKERwhile waiting for my demo session.
1:50:57SPEAKER- Norm, where can people find you?
1:50:58SPEAKERWhere should they go find this video?
1:50:59SPEAKERWhat socials do you wanna send them to?
1:51:03SPEAKER- You can find the video, a 33 minute video,
1:51:06SPEAKERabout a 30 minute demo 'cause I was thinking more than,
1:51:09SPEAKERI had more thoughts than I had demo time
1:51:12SPEAKERon our YouTube channel, youtube.com/tested.
1:51:15SPEAKER- You did a lovely job painting the word picture
1:51:17SPEAKERof the experience.
1:51:17SPEAKERI know it's always hard when they're like,
1:51:20SPEAKERhey, you can't have any B-roll.
1:51:21SPEAKERThere's nothing you can show from this.
1:51:22SPEAKERYou just have to talk through it and it was great.
1:51:25SPEAKER- Let me tell you, the behind the scenes thing is
1:51:28SPEAKERthey messed up the scheduling and they did not
1:51:31SPEAKERgive the notification of what press should do
1:51:34SPEAKERor at least what digital press maybe should do
1:51:36SPEAKERafter the keynote which was to go to the Steve Jobs Theater
1:51:39SPEAKERand get B-roll and so I was wandering and eating lunch
1:51:42SPEAKERand chatting with developers for a little bit before my demo
1:51:46SPEAKERand then when I got to my demo, I was like,
1:51:47SPEAKERoh, where can I get B-roll if I can't film the demo?
1:51:50SPEAKERI'm like, oh, you can go to the Steve Jobs Theater.
1:51:51SPEAKERI'm like, when was that supposed to be?
1:51:53SPEAKERYou didn't do that yet?
1:51:54SPEAKERHe's like, no, no one sent me a message.
1:51:55SPEAKER- Oh man. - And I'm like,
1:51:56SPEAKERwhen can I do that?
1:51:57SPEAKERIs it gonna be open later?
1:51:58SPEAKEROh, I guess it closes in half an hour
1:52:01SPEAKERand you're doing your demo now.
1:52:03SPEAKERSorry, but you got an early demo and so like,
1:52:09SPEAKERbut we make video and I need a photo for a thumbnail
1:52:12SPEAKERbut they worked it out.
1:52:13SPEAKERThey eventually got me in at the end.
1:52:14SPEAKERThat's how I was able to get my demo.
1:52:15SPEAKERSo I really appreciate it to the PR team
1:52:18SPEAKERfor making that happen.
1:52:21SPEAKERYeah, that's my last behind the scenes story, I think.
1:52:25SPEAKEROh, and the video, yeah.
1:52:28SPEAKERThank you for the compliments on the video.
1:52:29SPEAKERI just recorded that as if I was doing a podcast
1:52:31SPEAKERwith Jeremy and Kishore and just interrupting them
1:52:33SPEAKERanytime they wanted to talk, so that's, yeah.
1:52:36SPEAKER- And did you do that on the Apple Campus
1:52:38SPEAKERor was that someplace across the street?
1:52:39SPEAKER- It was across the street, the visitor center.
1:52:41SPEAKERThey had that closed off for press,
1:52:42SPEAKERso the rooftop deck of the visitor center.
1:52:44SPEAKERWhere you can buy a Ted Lasso gear.
1:52:47SPEAKERI think the only place you can buy Ted Lasso,
1:52:49SPEAKERlike the Richmond team, you know, fake--
1:52:53SPEAKER- Did you get an AFC Richmond?
1:52:55SPEAKER- Exactly.
1:52:56SPEAKER- Did you get a Roy Kent shirt?
1:52:57SPEAKER- $65 for a hoodie, no thanks.
1:52:59SPEAKER- Gina got me a Roy Kent shirt for my birthday
1:53:01SPEAKERa couple of years ago, it's awesome.
1:53:02SPEAKER- Wow, all right.
1:53:07SPEAKER- Thank you to Norm for taking the time to come talk to us.
1:53:09SPEAKERI always love the amount of depth and detail
1:53:11SPEAKERhe brings to product hands-on and firsthand experience.
1:53:14SPEAKERAlso, congratulations to Norm.
1:53:17SPEAKERI didn't realize this invite represented,
1:53:20SPEAKERI guess he seized the chamfered aluminum ring on this one
1:53:25SPEAKERby finally getting the invite and getting to go.
1:53:28SPEAKER- I mean, like, I think I said this in that,
1:53:30SPEAKERso we're recording the intro and outro a little bit
1:53:31SPEAKERafter we recorded the actual episode,
1:53:33SPEAKERbut when we started testing at Maximum PC,
1:53:38SPEAKERwe got invited to Apple stuff, right?
1:53:39SPEAKER'Cause it's a print magazine and they like print magazines.
1:53:42SPEAKER- Even though it had PC in the title.
1:53:44SPEAKER- Yeah, but we covered MP3 players and we covered laptops
1:53:48SPEAKERand we covered, you know, stuff like that.
1:53:51SPEAKERWe didn't get invited to the iPhone event
1:53:53SPEAKER'cause that was pretty small, but I was at the iPod event.
1:53:57SPEAKERI was at a lot of the iPod events, actually,
1:54:01SPEAKERand at the aluminum MacBook event,
1:54:05SPEAKERlike I'm in the video holding the frame of the thing
1:54:09SPEAKERas it's being passed around so we could handle
1:54:12SPEAKERthis single cut piece of aluminum
1:54:14SPEAKERfor the MacBook or MacBook Air, I can't remember which one.
1:54:17SPEAKER- That was the first Mac I ever bought,
1:54:19SPEAKERthat first unibody, I was extremely excited about.
1:54:21SPEAKER- Yeah, it is, look, if I were ranking laptops here,
1:54:25SPEAKERit's probably number one or number two for me.
1:54:28SPEAKERBut when we started testing, we were like,
1:54:31SPEAKERone of the things we talked about before we left Maximum PC
1:54:34SPEAKERwas, hey, if we go to do this new thing,
1:54:37SPEAKERwe're gonna lose all this access that we had before.
1:54:38SPEAKERWe're like, you know what, fuck access, we don't need access.
1:54:42SPEAKERBut I still would, every time there was an event announced
1:54:45SPEAKERand we didn't get invited, I would send a note
1:54:47SPEAKERto the PR people who had been so nice to us before
1:54:49SPEAKERand be like, hey, just wanted to let you know,
1:54:51SPEAKERwe're available, I'd love to come down and see the thing.
1:54:54SPEAKERLike, it's something we would definitely cover
1:54:55SPEAKERand do a video of if we could get the early access
1:54:58SPEAKERon the devices and even if you don't let us in,
1:55:00SPEAKERwe'll probably buy the hardware anyway when it comes out
1:55:02SPEAKERand then talk about it then.
1:55:04SPEAKERSo it's gonna happen either way.
1:55:06SPEAKERNot only did we get a polite no,
1:55:08SPEAKERwe just got no response for years.
1:55:11SPEAKER- This is making me feel so much better
1:55:13SPEAKERhaving also gone through this now exact same experience
1:55:17SPEAKERof having spent 13 years building relationships
1:55:20SPEAKERand cache and getting entrenched on invite lists
1:55:22SPEAKERand making a name for yourself as an outlet
1:55:26SPEAKERand then leaving and doing it again.
1:55:27SPEAKER- Yep.
1:55:29SPEAKER- Some of that access does go away.
1:55:31SPEAKER- So the weird thing though is,
1:55:33SPEAKERas we started posting videos and people,
1:55:35SPEAKERand we got, like there was a rough,
1:55:37SPEAKERthe early days of testing we were bad at video.
1:55:39SPEAKERLike Norm was better than I was,
1:55:41SPEAKERbut like our video was not great
1:55:42SPEAKERand it took a while to kind of get legs.
1:55:45SPEAKERAnd, but people started calling,
1:55:47SPEAKERlike people started sending notes back
1:55:48SPEAKERand it started with like, you know,
1:55:50SPEAKERweird as seen on TV stuff,
1:55:52SPEAKERwhich is why we did a lot of those as seen on TV segments.
1:55:55SPEAKERAnd then like Intel called and AMD called and Nvidia called
1:56:00SPEAKERand eventually like we had, we'd reconnected
1:56:02SPEAKERwith all these people.
1:56:03SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:56:04SPEAKER- And now 13 short years later,
1:56:07SPEAKERNorm finally got invited back to an Apple event.
1:56:09SPEAKERSo.
1:56:10SPEAKER- Congratulations.
1:56:11SPEAKER- It's been a long road.
1:56:13SPEAKERBut this is the time where we talk about our patrons
1:56:17SPEAKERand that this is a 100% listener supported podcast.
1:56:20SPEAKERIf you enjoy Brad and Will Made a Tech Pod,
1:56:22SPEAKERif you would like to support the show
1:56:24SPEAKERso we keep making it indefinitely till one of us,
1:56:26SPEAKERyou know, lets loose the mortal coil
1:56:28SPEAKERand then we find another Brad and or Will.
1:56:31SPEAKERYou can do so by going to patreon.com/techpod.
1:56:34SPEAKERAnd for five bucks a month,
1:56:35SPEAKERyou can get access to the patron exclusive episode
1:56:38SPEAKERevery month where we talk about like ongoing projects,
1:56:41SPEAKERthings we're thinking about doing episodes on,
1:56:43SPEAKERthings we're excited about, things we're fighting with.
1:56:46SPEAKER- My USB saga might be coming to a close today.
1:56:49SPEAKERI bet the patrons can't wait to hear about it
1:56:51SPEAKERon the next patron episode.
1:56:52SPEAKER- I'm gonna talk about my, how my CPU really was broken.
1:56:55SPEAKERAnd I wasn't a crazy person with bad memory.
1:56:57SPEAKERLike the Intel people made me think.
1:56:59SPEAKER- That's wow, okay, I do want to hear about that.
1:57:01SPEAKER- Anyway, but yeah, you can do that
1:57:04SPEAKERat patreon.com/techpod.
1:57:06SPEAKERAnd as always every week, we thank our executive producer
1:57:09SPEAKERto your patrons, including Nick Johnston,
1:57:12SPEAKERPaddle Creek Games Makers, Fractured Veil,
1:57:14SPEAKERAndrew Solosky, The Bunny Damon, hold on.
1:57:17SPEAKERDo you, when it's D-A-E-M-O-N, do you say Damon
1:57:20SPEAKERor do you say demon?
1:57:21SPEAKER- It's demon.
1:57:22SPEAKER- Really?
1:57:23SPEAKER- It's demon.
1:57:24SPEAKER- Isn't it, is it like a weird English pronunciation
1:57:25SPEAKERwhere it's like Damon?
1:57:27SPEAKER- No, it's, well, it is archaic.
1:57:28SPEAKERYes, it's not to, not to just appeal to authority,
1:57:31SPEAKERbut if you do look that word up in the dictionary,
1:57:33SPEAKERit just says it's an archaic form of demon.
1:57:35SPEAKER- Oh, okay.
1:57:36SPEAKER- But also like in, in the gray beard Unix world,
1:57:38SPEAKERthat's how everybody pronounces it.
1:57:39SPEAKER- Oh, he said Damon.
1:57:40SPEAKER- Like that's why, that's why the mascot of free BSD
1:57:45SPEAKERis a little devil.
1:57:47SPEAKER- Oh, there's a whole lot of,
1:57:48SPEAKERlike this is a real Phoenix down moment for me.
1:57:52SPEAKERMy beard is apparently just white and not gray.
1:57:54SPEAKERSo I don't know.
1:57:56SPEAKERJust wedge, thank you, just wedge.
1:57:58SPEAKERJoel Krauska, Twinkie2049.
1:58:01SPEAKERI assume Twinkie must be on the East coast.
1:58:04SPEAKERBy the way, well, we'll talk about that.
1:58:06SPEAKERLet's talk about that after,
1:58:06SPEAKERbut David Allen and James Kamik.
1:58:09SPEAKERI just want to say I was really pleased
1:58:12SPEAKERwhen I went in the discord the other day
1:58:13SPEAKERand there weren't a bunch of people on the West coast
1:58:15SPEAKERposting shit about how much worse the smoke was
1:58:18SPEAKERduring our first taste of the climate apocalypse
1:58:21SPEAKERa couple of years ago here.
1:58:23SPEAKERAnd like there were on Twitter and other places
1:58:26SPEAKERand people were just like,
1:58:27SPEAKER"Hey, here's a way you could make a relatively cheap
1:58:29SPEAKERair filter for like a hundred bucks
1:58:31SPEAKERwith parts that you get at Home Depot and a box fan.
1:58:35SPEAKERWear a mask.
1:58:36SPEAKERHere's what we did to make it more comfortable
1:58:37SPEAKERwhen we were going through this."
1:58:39SPEAKERAnd like sharing, sharing advice.
1:58:41SPEAKERAnd cause the thing to remember is your disaster
1:58:45SPEAKERisn't worse than their disaster.
1:58:47SPEAKERThey're all the same disaster.
1:58:49SPEAKER- I mean, that's the really depressing part of this to me
1:58:52SPEAKERis like, oh, that awful summer here three years ago
1:58:55SPEAKERwas not some one-off freak Black Swan event.
1:58:58SPEAKERIt's just something that's going to happen
1:59:00SPEAKERto at least someone every year now.
1:59:02SPEAKER- Yeah, yeah.
1:59:04SPEAKERAnd on that cheery note.
1:59:07SPEAKER- You know what, hang on.
1:59:08SPEAKERLet's end on something actually cheery.
1:59:09SPEAKER- Okay, you got something cheery?
1:59:10SPEAKER- On the demon, Damon front.
1:59:12SPEAKER- Yeah.
1:59:13SPEAKER- If you want to just bypass all that and be extra cool,
1:59:15SPEAKERif you really want to be elite.
1:59:16SPEAKER- I'm always, you know me, I'm the most elite.
1:59:19SPEAKER- You just say D.
1:59:21SPEAKER- Wait, really?
1:59:22SPEAKER- As in, you know, yes.
1:59:23SPEAKERAs in system D, journal D, time sync D, smart D,
1:59:27SPEAKERour syslog D, I'm literally just reading demons
1:59:30SPEAKERoff of the process list on my mouse right now.
1:59:33SPEAKERLogin system, login D, pullkit D.
1:59:43SPEAKER- I'm trying really hard not to make a D's nuts.
1:59:46SPEAKERSee y'all next week.
1:59:52SPEAKER[BLANK_AUDIO]